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P Owed Captain
09-12-2018, 06:52 AM
Why does the company now want us to waste our time sitting around BMI for a day and a half in quite a few commutable trips in October?? They gripe about needing pilots to fly these planes, and then they want us to sit around? What's so great about BMI that I'd want to sit around there for so long?


P Owed Captain
09-12-2018, 07:00 AM
As long as I'm griping, I may as well throw in how the company likes to screw you on your last day when you actually get a trip that ends early for once in a blue moon, and then they tack on a quick turn to make you get home later! :mad:

deltajuliet
09-12-2018, 08:18 AM
Junior available, not junior assignment. You never have to accept additional flying outside your footprint.

And worse places to hang out than BMI.


bnkangle
09-12-2018, 08:47 AM
As long as I'm griping, I may as well throw in how the company likes to screw you on your last day when you actually get a trip that ends early for once in a blue moon, and then they tack on a quick turn to make you get home later! :mad:

Yes, this is by design. Ever notice 3-4 hour sits in base??

MagPBS
09-12-2018, 10:26 AM
This one took me all of 5 seconds and a visit to AA.com.

There are 8 pairings that have 24+ overnights in BMI.
4 start on Friday, 4 start on Tuesday.

Go to AA.com and look up flights from BMI to DFW on Saturday's and Wednesday's in October.

Guess what you'll find. There's only 1 flight those days. Total. Nothing for you to come out on legally.

I really wish people would stop black helicoptering everything. There's real legitimate reasons for why most of what happens happens. And it's not to screw over the crews.

Brody
09-12-2018, 12:22 PM
This one took me all of 5 seconds and a visit to AA.com.

There are 8 pairings that have 24+ overnights in BMI.
4 start on Friday, 4 start on Tuesday.

Go to AA.com and look up flights from BMI to DFW on Saturday's and Wednesday's in October.

Guess what you'll find. There's only 1 flight those days. Total. Nothing for you to come out on legally.

I really wish people would stop black helicoptering everything. There's real legitimate reasons for why most of what happens happens. And it's not to screw over the crews.


Then why such a brutal contract - after years of negotiations? Where the starting F/O pay actually decreases?

It's not black helicopter-ing . . . it's that deer-in-the-headlights look when your 'union' just recommended voting 'yes' on a contract that's the laughing stock of the Regional industry.

We're jaded and angry because the only thing our MEC seems to get excited about it making sure our 'union' dues are extracted from our paychecks in a timely manner.

After that - 'meh . . .'

I've been in this industry for a long time - and have seen a lot of things. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything that comes close to how weak our MEC is. Your results (or lack thereof) tend to breed mistrust and suspicion among the rank-and-file.

For Christ's sake, we're flying American and United's passengers for peanut wages, little-or-no medical/dental benefits, and crappy schedules. And you expect us to accept this a NORMAL???

Don't throw this in OUR laps . . . our MEC put us here. If you expect us to be quiet about it, you're delusional.

For everyone's sake . . . grow a pair!!

calmwinds
09-12-2018, 12:41 PM
Then why such a brutal contract - after years of negotiations? Where the starting F/O pay actually decreases?

It's not black helicopter-ing . . . it's that deer-in-the-headlights look when your 'union' just recommended voting 'yes' on a contract that's the laughing stock of the Regional industry.

We're jaded and angry because the only thing our MEC seems to get excited about it making sure our 'union' dues are extracted from our paychecks in a timely manner.

After that - 'meh . . .'

I've been in this industry for a long time - and have seen a lot of things. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything that comes close to how weak our MEC is. Your results (or lack thereof) tend to breed mistrust and suspicion among the rank-and-file.

For Christ's sake, we're flying American and United's passengers for peanut wages, little-or-no medical/dental benefits, and crappy schedules. And you expect us to accept this a NORMAL???

Don't throw this in OUR laps . . . our MEC put us here. If you expect us to be quiet about it, you're delusional.

For everyone's sake . . . grow a pair!!

Do you really believe our FO pay rates going down is reality? Even the latest Xjet contract is much better than ours.

The FO pay going down was all done so JO could present a pro forma in the prospectus that is overly optimistic, and he can point at the pilot contract for justification. If something happens to Mesa and our stock tanks, the stockholder lawsuits will encompass both management and the ALPA negotiators.

20sx
09-12-2018, 01:22 PM
Then why such a brutal contract - after years of negotiations? Where the starting F/O pay actually decreases?

It's not black helicopter-ing . . . it's that deer-in-the-headlights look when your 'union' just recommended voting 'yes' on a contract that's the laughing stock of the Regional industry.

We're jaded and angry because the only thing our MEC seems to get excited about it making sure our 'union' dues are extracted from our paychecks in a timely manner.

After that - 'meh . . .'

I've been in this industry for a long time - and have seen a lot of things. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything that comes close to how weak our MEC is. Your results (or lack thereof) tend to breed mistrust and suspicion among the rank-and-file.

For Christ's sake, we're flying American and United's passengers for peanut wages, little-or-no medical/dental benefits, and crappy schedules. And you expect us to accept this a NORMAL???

Don't throw this in OUR laps . . . our MEC put us here. If you expect us to be quiet about it, you're delusional.

For everyone's sake . . . grow a pair!!

Magpbs was commenting on the schedule. You took it a whole new direction making it about the contract. He had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it. Heís not on the MEC.

P Owed Captain
09-13-2018, 06:27 AM
There are 8 pairings that have 24+ overnights in BMI.
4 start on Friday, 4 start on Tuesday.


Guess what you'll find. There's only 1 flight those days. Total. Nothing for you to come out on legally.


Sounds like these people in BMI don't need our service, then. They should drive a little bit and go out of another airport and stop wasting our time.

DarkSideMoon
09-13-2018, 07:29 AM
Sounds like these people in BMI don't need our service, then. They should drive a little bit and go out of another airport and stop wasting our time.

You know thatís not how any of this works right? You arenít providing service. American is. You gave up the right to pick and choose where you fly and how long you stay there when you agreed to a FFD agreement with them.

navigatro
09-13-2018, 09:33 AM
Sounds like these people in BMI don't need our service, then. They should drive a little bit and go out of another airport and stop wasting our time.

I have seen some pilot's statements of entitlement before, but this one takes the cake. Congratulations!

Brody
09-13-2018, 12:06 PM
You know thatís not how any of this works right? You arenít providing service. American is. You gave up the right to pick and choose where you fly and how long you stay there when you agreed to a FFD agreement with them.

We agreed to fly airplanes - with passengers - for a professional wage.

Sitting in some God-forsaken city for a day and a half while not getting paid is bad enough . . . but throw in the regional pay scales, and suddenly the term 'screwed' isn't strong enough.

We are getting FLEECED as regional pilots.

We are losing YEARS of professional pilot wages while we play this game.

Reread the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome . . . because as a regional pilot, I see it on a daily basis.

It's beyond embarrassing what we've allowed them to do to us. One guy starts a thread voicing his concern, and now you're taking a shot at him?

Take it from someone who has been in this industry for a long, long time -

NONE OF THIS IS ACCEPTABLE

Wake the hell up . . .

DarkSideMoon
09-13-2018, 12:49 PM
We agreed to fly airplanes - with passengers - for a professional wage.

Sitting in some God-forsaken city for a day and a half while not getting paid is bad enough . . . but throw in the regional pay scales, and suddenly the term 'screwed' isn't strong enough.

We are getting FLEECED as regional pilots.

We are losing YEARS of professional pilot wages while we play this game.

Reread the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome . . . because as a regional pilot, I see it on a daily basis.

It's beyond embarrassing what we've allowed them to do to us. One guy starts a thread voicing his concern, and now you're taking a shot at him?

Take it from someone who has been in this industry for a long, long time -

NONE OF THIS IS ACCEPTABLE

Wake the hell up . . .

Don’t like sitting around all day not getting paid? Then go to a regional with trip rigs. All regionals suck, but you do get some choice in the flavor of suck.

This isn’t some conspiracy that Mesa scheduling is pulling, American dictates the flying and frequency. Don’t like it? then take it up with American or fight for rigs.

I’m never pro regional or pro company but don’t waste your time complaining over things you have 0 power or leverage to change when there are plenty of issues you can make some progress on.

pangolin
09-13-2018, 02:04 PM
Iím mainly commenting on the schedules. Iíve researched and talked with other regional pilots. Our pairings and schedules are superior to most. Our contract is far from the worst. We could have jr assignments or a contract that the company just ignores as is the case at some regionals.


Then why such a brutal contract - after years of negotiations? Where the starting F/O pay actually decreases?

It's not black helicopter-ing . . . it's that deer-in-the-headlights look when your 'union' just recommended voting 'yes' on a contract that's the laughing stock of the Regional industry.

We're jaded and angry because the only thing our MEC seems to get excited about it making sure our 'union' dues are extracted from our paychecks in a timely manner.

After that - 'meh . . .'

I've been in this industry for a long time - and have seen a lot of things. I can honestly say I haven't seen anything that comes close to how weak our MEC is. Your results (or lack thereof) tend to breed mistrust and suspicion among the rank-and-file.

For Christ's sake, we're flying American and United's passengers for peanut wages, little-or-no medical/dental benefits, and crappy schedules. And you expect us to accept this a NORMAL???

Don't throw this in OUR laps . . . our MEC put us here. If you expect us to be quiet about it, you're delusional.

For everyone's sake . . . grow a pair!!

Brody
09-13-2018, 03:24 PM
Iím mainly commenting on the schedules. Iíve researched and talked with other regional pilots. Our pairings and schedules are superior to most. Our contract is far from the worst. We could have jr assignments or a contract that the company just ignores as is the case at some regionals.

Stockholm Syndrome.

Wake up . . . . . . . . . . . .

20sx
09-13-2018, 06:13 PM
Over 28 hour sit gets you 2 hours of credit. Not a complete waste of time, but close;)

yeeeyeee
09-13-2018, 10:07 PM
Download tinder, swipe right on everyone, go on a date, get smashed, layover 👌🏻

pangolin
09-14-2018, 06:51 AM
Stockholm Syndrome.

Wake up . . . . . . . . . . . .

I didnít say it was good. Just not the worst.

P Owed Captain
09-14-2018, 06:55 AM
At least Brody gets it!

P Owed Captain
09-14-2018, 06:57 AM
Download tinder, swipe right on everyone, go on a date, get smashed, layover 👌🏻

You sound very professional.

Some of us are happily married and don't wish to cheat.

Brody
09-14-2018, 09:33 AM
I didnít say it was good. Just not the worst.


And that's pretty much the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Just because it's not the worst - doesn't make it acceptable.

How long are we going to accept that we're doing the exact same job as a major airline pilot - but for a very small percentage of their wages?

How long will we allow the unions to get away with this?

As I stated before, we are losing years (in many cases, decades) of PROFESSIONAL airline pilot wages while we sit in this self-inflicted waiting room called the regionals. When I started at my first airline, the typical airline pilot career was worth between $7 million and $8 million. That was when it was assumed that one would only spend a couple of years at a regional (or commuter airline, as they were called then). Every time I talk to a captain who says, "I think that I'm compensated fairly" . . . I want to punch him in the face.

When the captain in the 737 at the next gate is making 300K per year, I've got news for you Mr. Regional Captain . . .

you're NOT being compensated fairly.

You're leaving a ton of money on the table - in exchange for what?

Job security? Gimme a break.

If we'd all lose the inherent selfishness that's now the norm in our industry, we'd be MUCH, MUCH better off

Sennant
09-14-2018, 10:00 AM
And that's pretty much the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Just because it's not the worst - doesn't make it acceptable.

How long are we going to accept that we're doing the exact same job as a major airline pilot - but for a very small percentage of their wages?

How long will we allow the unions to get away with this?

As I stated before, we are losing years (in many cases, decades) of PROFESSIONAL airline pilot wages while we sit in this self-inflicted waiting room called the regionals. When I started at my first airline, the typical airline pilot career was worth between $7 million and $8 million. That was when it was assumed that one would only spend a couple of years at a regional (or commuter airline, as they were called then). Every time I talk to a captain who says, "I think that I'm compensated fairly" . . . I want to punch him in the face.

When the captain in the 737 at the next gate is making 300K per year, I've got news for you Mr. Regional Captain . . .

you're NOT being compensated fairly.

You're leaving a ton of money on the table - in exchange for what?

Job security? Gimme a break.

If we'd all lose the inherent selfishness that's now the norm in our industry, we'd be MUCH, MUCH better off




And your grand solution for Capitalism is?

pangolin
09-14-2018, 11:42 AM
It would be way better if the regionals went away or didn't exist. The rise of the regionals can be attributed to the failures in the late 80s and 90s to institute "B Scale" pay. That and the fact that no self respecting "Airline pilot" would fly a propeller driven airplane. Regional airlines are basically B scale. It's only when they started flying larger jets that the mainline unions got involved and created "Scope" clauses to keep flying in house. They should NEVER give on scope. Taking the regionals in house (which will eventually come - but only with lower B scale wages) is the ultimate "solution". The economic reality though is what we see. The majors make a TON of money off the regionals and how they feed their mainline flying.

You make a good point.

And that's pretty much the definition of the Stockholm Syndrome.

Just because it's not the worst - doesn't make it acceptable.

How long are we going to accept that we're doing the exact same job as a major airline pilot - but for a very small percentage of their wages?

How long will we allow the unions to get away with this?

As I stated before, we are losing years (in many cases, decades) of PROFESSIONAL airline pilot wages while we sit in this self-inflicted waiting room called the regionals. When I started at my first airline, the typical airline pilot career was worth between $7 million and $8 million. That was when it was assumed that one would only spend a couple of years at a regional (or commuter airline, as they were called then). Every time I talk to a captain who says, "I think that I'm compensated fairly" . . . I want to punch him in the face.

When the captain in the 737 at the next gate is making 300K per year, I've got news for you Mr. Regional Captain . . .

you're NOT being compensated fairly.

You're leaving a ton of money on the table - in exchange for what?

Job security? Gimme a break.

If we'd all lose the inherent selfishness that's now the norm in our industry, we'd be MUCH, MUCH better off

No Land 3
09-14-2018, 06:59 PM
Mesa is really three different airlines... The E-jet, PHX, and everywhere else. PHX is running the show, those guys care about one thing only, keeping the door open. Everything else is a threat to that.
Once you understand this, you shouldn't be surprised.

Brody
09-15-2018, 09:17 AM
And your grand solution for Capitalism is?

The same solution that has ALWAYS worked - don't accept these wages.

If enough regional pilots simply walked away from their career, do you really think they would just find someone else to fill your shoes? There IS nobody else. As an example, I just looked up the starting salary for Assistant Manager at any Home Depot - it's 60K per year. That's just one of many examples.

Short of filing a major class-action suit against ALPA for misrepresentation (which should have happened years ago), regional pilots have to just walk away from these pathetic wages, schedules, and benefits. Every day a regional pilot shows up for work, it's another day that we allow our masters to shave millions from our career earnings.

I flew with a manager recently. He told me AA and UA contact Mesa almost on a daily basis - wanting to know one thing.

"How do the recruiting numbers look today?"

Now why would they want to know this? I've seen the projected retirement numbers for AA, UA, Delta, SWA, etc for the next few years. I've also seen the airframe orders. Do you REALLY think you won't get a phone call?

The longer the regionals exist, the longer the legacies won't have to re-align their domestic markets with their own airframes and their own pilots.

Sennant
09-15-2018, 09:41 AM
The same solution that has ALWAYS worked - don't accept these wages.

If enough regional pilots simply walked away from their career, do you really think they would just find someone else to fill your shoes? There IS nobody else. As an example, I just looked up the starting salary for Assistant Manager at any Home Depot - it's 60K per year. That's just one of many examples.

Short of filing a major class-action suit against ALPA for misrepresentation (which should have happened years ago), regional pilots have to just walk away from these pathetic wages, schedules, and benefits. Every day a regional pilot shows up for work, it's another day that we allow our masters to shave millions from our career earnings.

I flew with a manager recently. He told me AA and UA contact Mesa almost on a daily basis - wanting to know one thing.

"How do the recruiting numbers look today?"

Now why would they want to know this? I've seen the projected retirement numbers for AA, UA, Delta, SWA, etc for the next few years. I've also seen the airframe orders. Do you REALLY think you won't get a phone call?

The longer the regionals exist, the longer the legacies won't have to re-align their domestic markets with their own airframes and their own pilots.


One question, where do YOU currently work?

Brody
09-15-2018, 10:39 AM
One question, where do YOU currently work?

Went back to bartending - I'm walking the walk.

I've spent too many years in this industry to watch them embarrass pilots like this. This is beyond humiliating.

Follow me if you want - or don't, that's your choice. I made mine.

If they actually start paying professional wages, I might jump back in. For now, I'm happy.

One thing's for damn sure . . . I refuse to prostitute my professional skills and experience for Starbucks wages. If we would all do this, things would change dramatically.

No Land 3
09-15-2018, 11:15 AM
Went back to bartending - I'm walking the walk.

I've spent too many years in this industry to watch them embarrass pilots like this. This is beyond humiliating.

Follow me if you want - or don't, that's your choice. I made mine.

If they actually start paying professional wages, I might jump back in. For now, I'm happy.

One thing's for damn sure . . . I refuse to prostitute my professional skills and experience for Starbucks wages. If we would all do this, things would change dramatically.
One thing is for sure, you won't make the big bucks in aviation if you're not in it. Which begs the question, how valuable are those professional skills to you right now? When Mesa was handing out 300% pay like candy, my friends were making as much as I was at Kalitta.
Best of luck to you, there's never going to be a better time to get back into aviation as right now.

mjpilot
09-15-2018, 06:50 PM
" When Mesa was handing out 300% pay like candy, my friends were making as much as I was at Kalitta. "

You're NOT @ Kalitta anymore?

And how much were you making there?

Brody
09-15-2018, 07:29 PM
One thing is for sure, you won't make the big bucks in aviation if you're not in it. Which begs the question, how valuable are those professional skills to you right now? When Mesa was handing out 300% pay like candy, my friends were making as much as I was at Kalitta.
Best of luck to you, there's never going to be a better time to get back into aviation as right now.

I've been hearing that for twenty years.

In fact, if I had a dollar for every time I've been told that, I wouldn't need a job

No Land 3
09-17-2018, 09:49 AM
" When Mesa was handing out 300% pay like candy, my friends were making as much as I was at Kalitta. "

You're NOT @ Kalitta anymore?

And how much were you making there?

Still there, grossed over 130k first year. Second year probably over 150k.
Sorry for using the wrong tense.

No Land 3
09-17-2018, 09:50 AM
I've been hearing that for twenty years.

In fact, if I had a dollar for every time I've been told that, I wouldn't need a job

Then for twenty years you've either had horrible luck or failed to capitalize on opportunities.

mjpilot
09-17-2018, 08:19 PM
Still there, grossed over 130k first year. Second year probably over 150k.
Sorry for using the wrong tense.

With how much OT was that number? 64 hours guarantee? New hire training is $600/week?

I find that very hard to believe, even flying 95 hours per month.

No Land 3
09-18-2018, 11:47 AM
With how much OT was that number? 64 hours guarantee? New hire training is $600/week?

I find that very hard to believe, even flying 95 hours per month.

767 doesn't see it, all 747. Worked maybe five or six days of OT my first year. Perdiem is about 1200$ a month. Averaged over 94 hours a month. Others have done better.
Don't take my word for it, ask others.

mjpilot
09-18-2018, 08:20 PM
767 doesn't see it, all 747. Worked maybe five or six days of OT my first year. Perdiem is about 1200$ a month. Averaged over 94 hours a month. Others have done better.
Don't take my word for it, ask others.

That still doesn't add up. Training pay would drag that number down. Unless your OT is also 300%. 😂😁

No Land 3
09-20-2018, 10:11 AM
That still doesn't add up. Training pay would drag that number down. Unless your OT is also 300%. 😂😁

Then clearly I was averaging more than 94 hours. Donít forget we have DOS + 1, and part way through my first year I was making year 2 + 1 pay. If I was to include my training pay which was before January 1st, my gross would be well north of 140k. My first year pay figure was for the tax year, not when I started.

Out Of Trim
09-22-2018, 11:01 PM
With how much OT was that number? 64 hours guarantee? New hire training is $600/week?

I find that very hard to believe, even flying 95 hours per month.Its a lot easier to get overtime doing ACMI. When I was at Mesa, picking up extra flying as a commuting FO was damned near impossible. Between 121 work rules and Mesa crew line scheduling/adjustment, even swaps were hard to pull off. At my airline we get paid for the days away from home. I get a full days pay whether Iím flying or sitting for a week in a hotel in Europe waiting for them to ring my phone. On days 19 and 20 Iím at 150%. After that, 200%. If you want to stay out all month sometimes you can do it. Thereís that much flying to be done here, and not enough pilots just like everywhere else. A 1st year FO friend here stayed out all of July and grossed 14k for the month. Can you make that happen every month? No. But you can a lot of months because the supplemental rules will allow for it. And, we donít make quite as much as K4. So, can a 2yr FO pull in $130k? Yes, absolutely. Nobody is lying. ACMI is tougher flying and a challenging lifestyle. But the money is there at some of them. Many promise you the world but deliver New Jersey. You have to do your homework, just like the regionals.

mjpilot
09-23-2018, 02:34 PM
Its a lot easier to get overtime doing ACMI. When I was at Mesa, picking up extra flying as a commuting FO was damned near impossible. Between 121 work rules and Mesa crew line scheduling/adjustment, even swaps were hard to pull off. At my airline we get paid for the days away from home. I get a full days pay whether Iím flying or sitting for a week in a hotel in Europe waiting for them to ring my phone. On days 19 and 20 Iím at 150%. After that, 200%. If you want to stay out all month sometimes you can do it. Thereís that much flying to be done here, and not enough pilots just like everywhere else. A 1st year FO friend here stayed out all of July and grossed 14k for the month. Can you make that happen every month? No. But you can a lot of months because the supplemental rules will allow for it. And, we donít make quite as much as K4. So, can a 2yr FO pull in $130k? Yes, absolutely. Nobody is lying. ACMI is tougher flying and a challenging lifestyle. But the money is there at some of them. Many promise you the world but deliver New Jersey. You have to do your homework, just like the regionals.

I'm not doubting 130k at 2nd year, but first year would be a stretch.

No Land 3
09-23-2018, 02:38 PM
I'm not doubting 130k at 2nd year, but first year would be a stretch.

I had the fortunate luck to start IOE in January, so my first year pay aligned well with the tax year, with a few months at year two pay. I too was surprised to see how much I grossed, which totalled more than my entire time at Mesa.(No 300% pay, previous contract, 4th year cut short)
Its a lot easier to get overtime doing ACMI. When I was at Mesa, picking up extra flying as a commuting FO was damned near impossible. Between 121 work rules and Mesa crew line scheduling/adjustment, even swaps were hard to pull off. At my airline we get paid for the days away from home. I get a full days pay whether Iím flying or sitting for a week in a hotel in Europe waiting for them to ring my phone. On days 19 and 20 Iím at 150%. After that, 200%. If you want to stay out all month sometimes you can do it. Thereís that much flying to be done here, and not enough pilots just like everywhere else. A 1st year FO friend here stayed out all of July and grossed 14k for the month. Can you make that happen every month? No. But you can a lot of months because the supplemental rules will allow for it. And, we donít make quite as much as K4. So, can a 2yr FO pull in $130k? Yes, absolutely. Nobody is lying. ACMI is tougher flying and a challenging lifestyle. But the money is there at some of them. Many promise you the world but deliver New Jersey. You have to do your homework, just like the regionals.

It's also a double edged sword. Having half the month off consecutively every month is amazing, but the long flights, time zone changes, and sleep patterns/lack of exercise routine is very hard on your health.

mjpilot
09-23-2018, 09:17 PM
I had the fortunate luck to start IOE in January, so my first year pay aligned well with the tax year.


It's also a double edged sword. Having half the month off consecutively every month is amazing, but the long flights, time zone changes, and sleep patterns/lack of exercise routine is very hard on your health.

Fair enough. The rest is very well said.

mjpilot
09-24-2018, 07:22 AM
It's also a double edged sword. Having half the month off consecutively every month is amazing, but the long flights, time zone changes, and sleep patterns/lack of exercise routine is very hard on your health.

By the way, how do you get paid if you only fly 5 hours on a 11 hour flight? 5 plus 6 DH pay?

No Land 3
09-24-2018, 07:32 AM
By the way, how do you get paid if you only fly 5 hours on a 11 hour flight? 5 plus 6 DH pay?

I get paid full flight pay, even if I sleep for half of it, and I also log it all, as I am a required crew member. Flight can't depart without me. Standard ops for long haul. 95% of the time we have 3 to 4 pilots. If I do two legs as a basic crew which is only two pilots, I am limited to 100 hours a month, otherwise 120. We are busy enough that this is a valid concern for scheduling.