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View Full Version : Air Canada approves Facial Hair


Fr8Thrust
09-14-2018, 08:09 PM
Air Canada pilots may now sport beards up to 1.25 cm, thanks to a new study that proves there is ZERO interference with O2 masks. They join fellow N.A. airlines WestJet and Hawaiian, in permitting facial hair in the cockpit.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/air-canada-pilots-get-permission-to-wear-beards-1.4825104

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/air-canada-pilots-get-permission-to-wear-beards/ar-BBNlz0A


TiredSoul
09-15-2018, 12:38 AM
Now itís waiting for the FAA....itís a stupid rule and always has been.

Denti
09-15-2018, 04:01 AM
Have worn a beard for years now, and i have colleagues who have worn one pretty much all their working life. There was never a restriction from the regulator about it, just a warning that one should take into account slightly elevated O2 usage in case it is needed. But that has been in europe, no idea about regulators elsewhere.

Now, airlines might have some rules what kind of beards are allowed, most that i know do not allow stubble, but that is more an aesthetic thing than anything else.


captjns
09-15-2018, 06:44 AM
Wow:eek:! Stop the presses!

Excargodog
09-15-2018, 07:36 AM
Have worn a beard for years now, and i have colleagues who have worn one pretty much all their working life. There was never a restriction from the regulator about it, just a warning that one should take into account slightly elevated O2 usage in case it is needed. But that has been in europe, no idea about regulators elsewhere.

Now, airlines might have some rules what kind of beards are allowed, most that i know do not allow stubble, but that is more an aesthetic thing than anything else.

1.25 cm IS stubble.

deus ex machina
09-15-2018, 07:39 AM
The Deltoids are going to look very Titanic

tomgoodman
09-15-2018, 07:48 AM
We double-breasted van admirals are prone to ďbeard creepĒ. :D

https://www.battlefields.org/sites/default/files/styles/scale_crop_380x370/public/thumbnails/image/John%20L%20Worden.jpg?itok=0p4H1AHU

Denti
09-15-2018, 09:04 AM
1.25 cm IS stubble.

Half an inch is stubble? Guess we have a different definition over here in europe :p

Excargodog
09-15-2018, 09:10 AM
Half an inch is stubble? Guess we have a different definition over here in europe :p

Depends on if you are talking mustache or beard.

And yeah, the Yank really does understand metric.

Cheddar
09-15-2018, 10:08 AM
Now itís waiting for the FAA....itís a stupid rule and always has been.



FAA doesnít care. Many part 121 and 129 operators have beards. Just a Ďlegacy airlineí bias.

[emoji848] and I thought I was supposed to surrender my unconscious biases...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

airscout
09-16-2018, 11:03 AM
When I flew for PenAir they allowed beards there. I used to commute in and out of BOS on Delta. Four or five times in the space of a couple months I had the same Delta captain who hated beards. I'd always had a seat in the passenger cabin, but he would always make a point of telling me that I would not be allowed to jumpseat up front with a beard because of the whole O2 mask thing (beards causing bad O2 seals was disproven by our own military years ago btw). I'd politely say I understood and road in back. Then one day he had the gate agent tell me that I could not ride in the back either. I ended up missing two other flights that I could have made in another terminal had he not waited until the last possible second to have the agent give me the boot. (Real class Delta). After that, I only non-revved on American or United.

I wonder if Delta captains kick their JV partner pilots with beards off their aircraft as well or if they just thought they could mess with PenAir with no repercussions?

badflaps
09-16-2018, 02:54 PM
I'll pretty much bet on him being fNE.:eek:

airscout
09-16-2018, 05:58 PM
I'll pretty much bet on him being fNE.:eek:

Yes, I think so. Prior to the PenAir BOS gig, I jumpseated many times on Delta in and out of MSP and DTW. Most of those guys were former Northwest and Mesaba. Never had an issue and some were the nicest guys I've ever shared a cockpit with. In and out of BOS was a whole different story though. Not sure if it was because I wasn't a Delta regional then, if it was a BOS/non-former NWA thing, or if the beard just angered Delta captains in general. Maybe all three?

captjns
09-16-2018, 06:49 PM
I wonder if Delta captains kick their JV partner pilots with beards off their aircraft as well or if they just thought they could mess with PenAir with no repercussions?

Why would they object to a JV on their jet. Virgin Atlantic is UK carrrier... in other words not a 121 carrier.... canít ride the jump seat... thus your posit is academic.

sailingfun
09-18-2018, 07:50 AM
Yes, I think so. Prior to the PenAir BOS gig, I jumpseated many times on Delta in and out of MSP and DTW. Most of those guys were former Northwest and Mesaba. Never had an issue and some were the nicest guys I've ever shared a cockpit with. In and out of BOS was a whole different story though. Not sure if it was because I wasn't a Delta regional then, if it was a BOS/non-former NWA thing, or if the beard just angered Delta captains in general. Maybe all three?

Jumpseaters are prohibited from beards in the Delta FOM. Exceptions are FAA and secret service. Why put the CA on the spot and possibly facing action from the company if he does not enforce the rules?
Same thing with showing up in blue jeans. I prefer to wear them but always have a pair of regular pants in my bag in case I need a JS. Donít be the tool begging for a ride and asking for rules to get bent.

airscout
09-18-2018, 09:02 AM
Jumpseaters are prohibited from beards in the Delta FOM. Exceptions are FAA and secret service. Why put the CA on the spot and possibly facing action from the company if he does not enforce the rules?
Same thing with showing up in blue jeans. I prefer to wear them but always have a pair of regular pants in my bag in case I need a JS. Donít be the tool begging for a ride and asking for rules to get bent.


Obviously you didn't read my original post. I wasn't miffed about not being able to sit on the flight deck. I understood that it was in Delta's FOM. I think it's a dumb rule but I wouldn't hold it against the captain for enforcing it. This particular captain would not allow me to sit in the passenger cabin either as a non-rev. Full uniform... hat, tie, everything, because I had a beard.

airscout
09-18-2018, 09:42 AM
Just to clarify- I did not have a beard at other airlines I worked for other than PenAir. So when I was talking about better experiences with old Northwest become Delta guys based out of MSP or DTW that was more of a just in general observation replying to the guy who said my BOS experience could be because of different nicety levels between the rest of the country and the northeast. In other words, maybe not totally a beard thing but also BOS based Delta crew thing.

For most of my career I lived in base so I am certainly no jumpseating/non-reving expert so I'll leave it to others to flesh out the culture of Delta and the northeast compared to other airlines/places. But it my limited commuting (especially to the northeast) experience I thought that being kicked out of the passenger cabin for sporting a beard was quite odd.

airscout
09-18-2018, 12:43 PM
Or, maybe the beard issue is just another example of Delta's intransigence? Maybe they can start their own version of Joon or Swoop that allows beards and stuff like that to appeal to younger more hip people? (Tongue in cheek there. I think there's some merit to some of those ideas but I don't think anyone has implemented those ideas correctly yet. I think the oldsters at Delta would be the last ones to make that credible.)

I think Delta is what it is and probably will be the last to change.

PotatoChip
09-18-2018, 02:30 PM
Bar none, my worst experiences jumpseating have been with Delta captains.
(And to be clear, L-DAL pilots, not L-NWA).

WickedSmaht
09-18-2018, 02:55 PM
Obviously you didn't read my original post. I wasn't miffed about not being able to sit on the flight deck. I understood that it was in Delta's FOM. I think it's a dumb rule but I wouldn't hold it against the captain for enforcing it. This particular captain would not allow me to sit in the passenger cabin either as a non-rev. Full uniform... hat, tie, everything, because I had a beard.

And obviously you don't understand how we define "jumpseater". Did you ride on a zed? If not and you are OA then the only way, absent being a full fare pax, to ride on our metal is to be....a...come on say it with me now....jumpseater. "But I was in the cabin!!". You're a jumpseater and you are expected to be ready to act as a crew member should the situation warrant, ergo..no beard. Now this Capt may have been a tool belt, no doubt but painting an entire group with the same brush is more than lame. Sorry you had a crappy experience, you're welcome to try again.

sailingfun
09-18-2018, 03:21 PM
Obviously you didn't read my original post. I wasn't miffed about not being able to sit on the flight deck. I understood that it was in Delta's FOM. I think it's a dumb rule but I wouldn't hold it against the captain for enforcing it. This particular captain would not allow me to sit in the passenger cabin either as a non-rev. Full uniform... hat, tie, everything, because I had a beard.

He would have no say in how you look as a non rev. Thatís strictly a function for gate agents and beards are certainly allowed. Canít believe the gate agent allowed the CA to pull you. How did he even know you were a non rev and not paying for the seat?

WickedSmaht
09-18-2018, 03:35 PM
He would have no say in how you look as a non rev. Thatís strictly a function for gate agents and beards are certainly allowed. Canít believe the gate agent allowed the CA to pull you. How did he even know you were a non rev and not paying for the seat?

I may have misunderstood him but I believe he said he was in full uniform. Granted that doesn't HAVE to mean jumpseat/non-rev but I'm sure that made Captain Happypants start asking questions and maybe even enlist the support of the gate agent.

airscout
09-18-2018, 04:31 PM
Yes, I was in full uniform. I had just finished work and was commuting home.

In the past I could list myself as a non-rev on Delta. I had Delta pass benefits and access to the Delta intranet. When I talked to Delta agents about listing for pax seats and/or the jumpseat I was told to list initially for one or the other. They didn't like you to dual list. So I would list myself for a seat in the back and only list for the jumpseat about 30-60 minutes prior to departure if it was going to be full in back. I think this was so off-line pilots had a better guess on if the jumpseat was available. I never thought a whole lot about it, but anyway that's how the agents at the airports I flew out of liked to organize stuff so that's how I did it.

At PenAir it was opposite since I didn't have access to the Delta employee website and couldn't list myself for a seat in back. So I first listed for the jumpseat and then if that wasn't available (or in this case the captain wouldn't allow me to occupy it) then I would get listed non-rev for a seat in the back or buy a Zed fare.

In the situation I discussed I was no longer on the flight as a jumpseater (although I had originally listed as a jumpseater but a Delta pilot took that), I was a ZED fare in back. The captain told the gate agent not to board me. The gate agent was totally embarrassed by the situation and apologized. I don't blame her and told her so. I did tell her to tell the captain that these things were reciprocal and karma comes around. But, at that point PenAir was all but finished in BOS so I'm sure nobody worried much about that.

Maybe some wires got crossed somewhere and the Delta captain still thought that I was listed as a jumpseater? I don't know. But given my past experiences with this guy I could tell that he would gladly go out of his way to make a point. Beards just anger some people.

Fr8Thrust
09-19-2018, 03:59 AM
Beards just anger some people.

Usually the ones who lack the testosterone to grow one.

TrojanCMH
09-19-2018, 06:28 PM
I did tell her to tell the captain that these things were reciprocal and karma comes around. But, at that point PenAir was all but finished in BOS so I'm sure nobody worried much about that.



I donít think Delta or its pilots were too worried about losing the Penn Air jumpseat agreement.

But I agree that Delta certainly does hire a certain type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

airscout
09-20-2018, 09:22 AM
I donít think Delta or its pilots were too worried about losing the Penn Air jumpseat agreement.

But I agree that Delta certainly does hire a certain type.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, Delta's type is definitely non-Sikh.

Kudos to Air Canada for putting in some effort and research to end discrimination!

tomgoodman
09-20-2018, 10:00 AM
Yes, Delta's type is definitely non-Sikh.

They donít want pilots taking Sikh leave. :D

sailingfun
09-20-2018, 10:57 AM
Yes, I was in full uniform. I had just finished work and was commuting home.

In the past I could list myself as a non-rev on Delta. I had Delta pass benefits and access to the Delta intranet. When I talked to Delta agents about listing for pax seats and/or the jumpseat I was told to list initially for one or the other. They didn't like you to dual list. So I would list myself for a seat in the back and only list for the jumpseat about 30-60 minutes prior to departure if it was going to be full in back. I think this was so off-line pilots had a better guess on if the jumpseat was available. I never thought a whole lot about it, but anyway that's how the agents at the airports I flew out of liked to organize stuff so that's how I did it.

At PenAir it was opposite since I didn't have access to the Delta employee website and couldn't list myself for a seat in back. So I first listed for the jumpseat and then if that wasn't available (or in this case the captain wouldn't allow me to occupy it) then I would get listed non-rev for a seat in the back or buy a Zed fare.

In the situation I discussed I was no longer on the flight as a jumpseater (although I had originally listed as a jumpseater but a Delta pilot took that), I was a ZED fare in back. The captain told the gate agent not to board me. The gate agent was totally embarrassed by the situation and apologized. I don't blame her and told her so. I did tell her to tell the captain that these things were reciprocal and karma comes around. But, at that point PenAir was all but finished in BOS so I'm sure nobody worried much about that.

Maybe some wires got crossed somewhere and the Delta captain still thought that I was listed as a jumpseater? I don't know. But given my past experiences with this guy I could tell that he would gladly go out of his way to make a point. Beards just anger some people.

So you showed up with a beard intending to jumpseat knowing you would be putting the Captain at risk if he allowed it. As I said in another post. If you want a JS show up in compliance with the rules of that airline. Donít be unshaven or in blue jeans if the requirements differ. To do so makes you the tool not the Captain.

airscout
09-20-2018, 01:10 PM
As I said, I was learning these new Delta ways trip by trip. Experiences vary. Ultimately the jumpseat is at the discretion of the captain. Pretty much everything is at the discretion of the captain. Flights operate or don't operate by discretion, etc. You could ground every flight if you dig hard enough into the rulebook. If you're one of those kinds of people then you belong working for the TSA confiscating fingernail clippers, not in charge of an aircraft. Legal rules are always used to discriminate when they are applied with malice or no thought. In between airline jobs, I was a cop for a while. What would people think of me if I ticketed every jaywalker, 71mph in a 70mph zone speeder, etc? They would think I was a giant ******** and they'd be right. There is important stuff and there's chicken **** stuff. Worrying about a pilot non-revving with a beard in the passenger cabin is chicken**** stuff. Or, maybe that's just me. I'll be the first to admit I'm probably not Delta material. In fact, after that experience, I pulled my Delta application. I'm a big picture kind of guy. I don't think Delta is a big picture kind of airline. They're more like too big to fail.

In any case, this isn't really so much about my personal experience and if I'm right or wrong in how I listed for flights. It's about Air Canada and what they did to right a wrong. I wish other airlines would think the same way. That's all.

JohnBurke
09-21-2018, 06:14 PM
If you're one of those kinds of people then you belong working for the TSA confiscating fingernail clippers, not in charge of an aircraft.


No.

If you're the one that put in the years and have the seniority to be a captain, and it's your airplane because you've proven yourself for enough decades to get there and your employer places you in their confidence and gives you that authority, then you belong in charge of that aircraft.

If you don't like it...go put in the effort and the years, become the captain, and then you can do something about it.

Until then, whining about it won't help. Fulfill the jumpsuit rules, whether you're in the cockpit or cabin, or find another ride. It really is so simple.

galaxy flyer
09-22-2018, 04:19 PM
I'll pretty much bet on him being fNE.:eek:

Can there possibly be any left?

airscout,

There is no such thing as a “protected class” for beards. If an employer doesn’t want employees to wear beards, it’s hardly Jim Crow era stuff. In Canada, my company allowed crews to wear beards, for the US crews, not so much. BFD!

GF

Cirrus2turbine
09-23-2018, 11:58 AM
Take a peak of dozens of V-LOGS on YouTube form pilots posting vids/pics. Literally dozens and dozens of dudes sporting stubble and short beards. Much more relaxed about it in Europe than North America and the culture here.

Having served in the USMC and been in Law Enforcement I've always been clean shaven for work. As I transition to a new career (flying!) I see more and more relaxed facial hair standards and I for one welcome it. Tired of shaving every day and like the "stubble" look!

4runner
09-23-2018, 03:25 PM
He would have no say in how you look as a non rev. Thatís strictly a function for gate agents and beards are certainly allowed. Canít believe the gate agent allowed the CA to pull you. How did he even know you were a non rev and not paying for the seat?

Thatís what CAPTAIN means.

4runner
09-23-2018, 03:27 PM
My current gig(121) allows beards and so does our FAA rep. It seems all our FOís(myself included) have beards. We occasionally have issues JSíing. I get funny looks too in uniform, usually from RJ astronauts and deltoids.

aviatorhi
09-25-2018, 09:14 PM
Now it’s waiting for the FAA....it’s a stupid rule and always has been.

Too bad it's not the FAA.

Just another "rule" invented in the civilian world by people who came out of the military. Like pilots not being able to have the same meal.

That’s what CAPTAIN means.

In that case CAPTAIN means ASSHAT.

tomgoodman
09-26-2018, 06:29 AM
Just another "rule" invented in the civilian world by people who came out of the military.

Just be thankful they didnít come out of the circus. :p

http://capnaux.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Clown-Pilot.jpg

boschpilot
09-26-2018, 02:08 PM
Just be thankful they didnít come out of the circus. :p


Circus performers can at least land on the ground without breaking anything. Maybe we should to learn to accept the times we live in and conform to standards used by the rest of the world.

SaltyDog
09-26-2018, 08:43 PM
Factually dependent on many variables (Mask types, pressure systems, etc)
Air Canada study only checked from 10000 to FL250, They should check at higher altitudes as Time of Useful Consciousness dramatically is impacted by altitude. Only used one hazmat sample. Cargo dogs can face many more hazmat threats. There is leakage. Just deemed acceptable for Air Canada at the low rates from the limited testing they accomplished.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22765

and this classic USN study of the topic determined to prohibit beards for pressure oxygen crewed aircraft. (And still do)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/754075.pdf

Science in these studies is not necessarily obsolete or false from these studies, but masks types do change. Though Air Canada flawed in ending study on impact only to FL250. However, no one really cares. Its all about comfort and looking cool, not safety. Airline management teams the world over are thrilled Im sure ;)

Fr8Thrust
09-28-2018, 03:49 AM
On a side-note, the full-face O2/Smoke mask is one-size-fits-most and doesnít fit every face type, even without facial hair. Those with narrower faces, and even those who wear glasses, experience a leakage and we deem that risk acceptable everyday.