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Joachim
09-17-2018, 05:06 AM
I keep hearing that the military is short on pilots. If that is true why wouldnít they consider creating a program for older and experienced airline pilots? Surely you can teach a 40 year old airline guy to fly a tanker or transport. Coupled with some sort of officers program tailored to people who wonít/canít go full time do you think itís viable?


Sputnik
09-17-2018, 07:54 AM
No.

40 y/o going through UPT. Yikes

rickair7777
09-17-2018, 08:53 AM
The military is not short of entry level pilots, plenty of applicants.

The military system builds experience FAST... a pilot who completes his initial ten-year obligation is vastly more experienced and capable than a noob. A 20-year vet even more so. The issue isn't replacing the ones who leave faster, it's retaining MORE of the experienced pilots for flying and non-flying leadership jobs, as well as non-flying staff jobs.

They don't need 40 year-old O1's. A a 40 year old will most likely be too old and worn out for senior leadership roles at age 60, especially involving tactical flying. There are so people who can do military tactical ops over age 50, but the majority can't.

As Sputnik said, older people don't learn as fast and military training tends to push you to your max.


Joachim
09-17-2018, 09:31 AM
No.

40 y/o going through UPT. Yikes

That was my point, to come up with a system that draws on the experience pool in the airlines. Do you really need to send an Allegiant capt. through upt or could you simply do a 6mo transition course and put him in the reserves?

galaxy flyer
09-17-2018, 09:36 AM
That was my point, to come up with a system that draws on the experience pool in the airlines. Do you really need to send an Allegiant capt. through upt or could you simply do a 6mo transition course and put him in the reserves?

You probably are not a prior service pilot. Even the simplest mission is more complicated than an Allegiant PIE-BUF flight. C-130s do a great deal of formation, low level, airdrop, NVG work. Hurricane Hunters, anyone. C-17s refuel relatively frequently and do NVG missions into hostile fire areas. Leading a cell of tankers to a flight of fighters in mid-ocean. Itís rarely like airlines.

GF

rickair7777
09-17-2018, 11:55 AM
That was my point, to come up with a system that draws on the experience pool in the airlines. Do you really need to send an Allegiant capt. through upt or could you simply do a 6mo transition course and put him in the reserves?

We already have that for the type of flying for which airline experience is directly relevant, it's called CRAF. Except you don't join the reserves, you just do it while working for your airline employer. The military typically contracts out most "airline style" flying missions.

Tactical flying, as GF described, is quite a bit more involved. Point A-to-B airline flying is probably only about 5% of what a fighter pilot needs to concern himself with (especially since all fighter pilots today are actually multi-mission fighter/attack pilots). Mobility pilots have a closer correlation to airline flying but it's still a big delta.

Joachim
09-17-2018, 01:55 PM
Where is the greatest need currently? What type of flying?

rickair7777
09-17-2018, 02:33 PM
Where is the greatest need currently? What type of flying?

Fighters.
.......

galaxy flyer
09-17-2018, 02:55 PM
And considering the considerable learning curve, it will be ever thus. Add in the fact that mobility pilots can’t be sent over to become tacair pilots, your idea won’t solve the problem by freeing up mobility crew dogs.

I’ve done everything from bank checks at night, tactical air, mobility air, airline, corporate. Airline was the simplest and most organized for success. As it should be, but the experience doesn’t transfer to more, shall we say, demanding or disorganized ops. There’s also the whole “Officer” thing going on, which isn’t remotely like being a captain.

GF

USMCFLYR
09-17-2018, 03:09 PM
Where is the greatest need currently? What type of flying?
There isn't one.
It is a team getting the job done.

TankerDriver
09-17-2018, 03:18 PM
The military is a physical and mental marathon, especially in the ops world. It's a great life for the young'ns, but as you get older it wears on you. Especially being a line pilot/crew dog. I'm in my 40's and I couldn't see myself wanting to start that type of lifestyle in my 40's. I'm at the point in my guard career I can manage it a little better than the average active duty O-2/O-3, but I was definitely more resilient to the BS when I was in my 20's. Not to say there wouldn't be some 40 something year olds out there that would want to try it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Joachim
09-17-2018, 03:25 PM
The military is not short of entry level pilots, plenty of applicants.

The military system builds experience FAST... a pilot who completes his initial ten-year obligation is vastly more experienced and capable than a noob. A 20-year vet even more so. The issue isn't replacing the ones who leave faster, it's retaining MORE of the experienced pilots for flying and non-flying leadership jobs, as well as non-flying staff jobs.

They don't need 40 year-old O1's. A a 40 year old will most likely be too old and worn out for senior leadership roles at age 60, especially involving tactical flying. There are so people who can do military tactical ops over age 50...

I think this answers the question best. The military is needing the mentors to stay. They donít necessarily need pilots with no or little previous combat experience.

Thx

PRS Guitars
09-17-2018, 04:08 PM
Fighters.
.......

Correction, fighter pilots for desk jobs.

C130driver
09-17-2018, 04:30 PM
We have a few former airline dudes who go through UPT and become military aviators. While most of them have excellent basic airmanship and instrument knowledge, they are no different than a brand new straight out of college type UPT grad when it comes to the more advanced tactical flying.

Also, the problem, as stated, is not a lack or young volunteers to become pilots, itís getting the experienced ones to stay around and run the enterprise not to mention mentor and teach the young guys.

rickair7777
09-17-2018, 05:46 PM
I think this answers the question best. The military is needing the mentors to stay. They donít necessarily need pilots with no or little previous combat experience.

Thx

It's much broader than that, they need to administrators and leaders who have warfighting skills and experience to run the military services. The alternative is non-warfighters in charge, ie tail wagging dog.

Vito
10-02-2018, 07:57 AM
I used to say it took 90% of my brain to make 10% of my income (flying C-17’s in the Reserves) my airline job took 10% of my brain to make 90% of my income. Until you’ve flown a military mission stuffed with TOT’s, ARCT’s, low level timing, and of course the inevitable screw ups that cause your initial plan to get ****-canned after takeoff, you’ll never understand military flying. Multiply this by 10 for fighter ops and you’ll quickly realize not all pilots are cut out to fly in the military. My IP at UPT summed it up best, he told me one time,

I’m not here to teach you to fly, I’m here to wash your sorry ass out! If you can get through me you’ll earn your wings”.

It’s all about pressure and how well you react to it..flying the jet is a very small part of the equation.

hindsight2020
10-06-2018, 02:12 PM
That was my point, to come up with a system that draws on the experience pool in the airlines. Do you really need to send an Allegiant capt. through upt or could you simply do a 6mo transition course and put him in the reserves?

That's a painfully ironic example to use. We in-lieu-of-FEB'd a guy who couldn't fly his way out of a UPT trainer if his life depended on it. And that guy was a prior tanker guy mind you. That guy is an Allegiant CA.

The answer to your question is yes, they need the full monte and many are not cut out for military flying in the best of circumstances.

As has been highlighted, the military is short of experienced aviators willing to ride a desk. There's no shortage of line flying fodder, which is what 99% of mil pilots want to do. Of course the AF is not that worried, the NDAA for FY19 locked in the bonus at 35K again, which doesn't even account for inflation. So it's not that big of a problem apparently. No stop loss either, so what gives?