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View Full Version : Gama vs. NetJets


Guard
09-19-2018, 02:26 AM
Thoughts on going left seat at Gama verses new hire at NetJets, what jets are guys getting at NetJets? Pay etc. Everything at Gama is 350 wheels up? Whatís upgrade time at NetJets?


illinipilot
09-19-2018, 03:46 AM
Netjets:
Upgrade: I was hired in 2006 and am still 200 spots away from upgrading. That being said, during that time period there were hiring freezes, a shrinking pilot group, and furloughs so I would hope that someone coming on property now would need to wait as long. Currently though, upgrade times are 13 - 14 years.

Pay: I think that the numbers on APC may be a little old but within $5,000 or $6,000 from our current pay scales. I've also heard that you add 10% for overtime, etc. To get at actual number. When looking at the pay for each schedule, I'm pretty sure a new hire can hold any schedule except perhaps the 52 day (the base schedule is 7 on 7 off. The numbers with the other schedules refer to how many days you work over a 4 month time period).

Aircraft: Recently new hires have been going to the Phenom 300, or a Citation.

Good luck with your choice.

Venkman
09-19-2018, 05:30 AM
Aircraft: Recently new hires have been going to the Phenom 300, or a Citation.

Good luck with your choice.

Is there any hope of getting your preference between those? For someone who's interested in NJ but hates the Phenom?


illinipilot
09-19-2018, 06:00 AM
Is there any hope of getting your preference between those? For someone who's interested in NJ but hates the Phenom?

I don't think so. Someone who was hired more recently may have better insight. I think they just assign you the aircraft in class.. maybe regardless of seniority?..

Busdriver91
09-19-2018, 06:06 AM
Thoughts on going left seat at Gama verses new hire at NetJets, what jets are guys getting at NetJets? Pay etc. Everything at Gama is 350 wheels up? Whatís upgrade time at NetJets?

You might ask this in the Part 135 section to get more Gama guys chiming in. You would probably have more days off and have an apu at Netjets however the pay would be a bit lower, at least initially. It all depends on what is important to you.

dirtysidedown
09-19-2018, 06:31 AM
You can also look at XoJet. We have a great pilot group with quick upgrades. And no matter what aircraft you get, it will have an APU and externally serviced lav,which believe me,is a big deal.

bunk22
09-19-2018, 06:40 AM
Thoughts on going left seat at Gama verses new hire at NetJets, what jets are guys getting at NetJets? Pay etc. Everything at Gama is 350 wheels up? Whatís upgrade time at NetJets?

PM me, was at Gama, at NJ now.

Flyfalcons
09-19-2018, 08:24 AM
Is there any hope of getting your preference between those? For someone who's interested in NJ but hates the Phenom?
You will be placed in a Phenom or a Citation depending on the needs of the company. We have numerous 2015+ new hires that are starting to come off seat lock in the Phenom, so the company may be looking at filling more slots there as those seats get vacated.

Retractable
09-20-2018, 11:18 AM
Upgrade time is currently 13 years.

Each monthly upgrade award has steadily been 10-14 a month for the last 6 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

55555
09-21-2018, 06:48 PM
Thoughts on going left seat at Gama verses new hire at NetJets, what jets are guys getting at NetJets? Pay etc. Everything at Gama is 350 wheels up? Whatís upgrade time at NetJets?

Go to XOJet while you wait for Majors to call. Smartest plan.

727C47
09-22-2018, 03:53 AM
Go to XOJet while you wait for Majors to call. Smartest plan.

Actually the smartest plan if you want the Majors is go to the regionals or the very least a ULCC , that being said a steady stream of NJA folks are leaving for the likes of SWA, and UPS, but donít come to NJA for a quick upgrade, itís a nice gig, good flying, and peeps,but if you want the majors as your end game reference my first sentence. Cheers,out : )

bunk22
09-26-2018, 06:35 PM
I am a new hire, got the Sovereign.

LandRoverNut
09-27-2018, 04:09 AM
New hires are getting mostly Phenom and Latitude as the company takes delivery of these new airplanes. An FO bid just came out so at least this month tons of movement. New hires got the X, Sovereign and XL/XLS as well as the Phenom and Latitude

55555
09-28-2018, 09:29 PM
Actually the smartest plan if you want the Majors is go to the regionals or the very least a ULCC , that being said a steady stream of NJA folks are leaving for the likes of SWA, and UPS, but donít come to NJA for a quick upgrade, itís a nice gig, good flying, and peeps,but if you want the majors as your end game reference my first sentence. Cheers,out : )

Disagree. Better pay at XO while you wait. Also upgrade time slightly faster.

Retractable
09-29-2018, 04:57 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

Iíve never seen a NetJets airplane ďsaving moneyĒ like that.

GeeWizDriver
09-29-2018, 05:24 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

I’ve never seen a NetJets airplane “saving money” like that.

Actually, I have. Like when the company was too cheap to just send the Gulfstream with the inop and deferred APU to the service center and instead insisted I use a power cart AND a huffer cart to fly a PASSENGER LEG instead. Penny-pinching isn’t exclusive to XO...

pixelflying
09-29-2018, 08:55 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

Iíve never seen a NetJets airplane ďsaving moneyĒ like that.
Weíre not trying to save the company money weíre trying to make ourselves more money through the fuel savings program and save our eardrums. How is the company giving us positive financial inscentives being spun as a bad thing? You could run the APU all day if you wanted.

727C47
09-29-2018, 09:34 AM
Disagree. Better pay at XO while you wait. Also upgrade time slightly faster.

We shall agree to disagree , but back to the original poster if you want the majors the best path is the regionals : ) Cheers . Out

Retractable
09-29-2018, 10:00 AM
Weíre not trying to save the company money weíre trying to make ourselves more money through the fuel savings program and save our eardrums. How is the company giving us positive financial inscentives being spun as a bad thing? You could run the APU all day if you wanted.



Itís just such a nice Ferrari to run on 83 octane fuel.

Das Auto
10-02-2018, 10:45 AM
Thoughts on going left seat at Gama verses new hire at NetJets, what jets are guys getting at NetJets? Pay etc. Everything at Gama is 350 wheels up? Whatís upgrade time at NetJets?

I had this dailema last year. I was offered a position at Netjets but ultimately decided to stay here at Gama. Both are great companies if you live in a smaller hub and don't want to commute. They both also have excellent health care which is very important to me. An APU would be nice in the summer but the King Air is still a great airplane to me and I enjoy the flying.

I stayed mostly for financial reasons but I have to say I was very impressed with the way that Gama treated me and my family when my kids were born.

The growth is at Gama regarding upgrades and transitioning to the training department etc. 3 year King Air guys are now moving over to the XL and X but keep their current pay scale.

The schedule and crew meals are better at NJ for sure, but if you're looking for career progression you'd move more quickly at Gama.

You could go to a regional but from someone who spent 6 years at one I can assure you that your life will be miserable. I'm not sure the slight edge it would give you is worth it. Multi crew turbine PIC time is mainly what the majors want to see. There's not a huge difference between part 121 and part 135 other than the size of the aircraft. As someone already mentioned, Southwest particularly likes Net Jets guys and we've had our share go over there too.

Guard
10-05-2018, 04:38 AM
I had this dailema last year. I was offered a position at Netjets but ultimately decided to stay here at Gama. Both are great companies if you live in a smaller hub and don't want to commute. They both also have excellent health care which is very important to me. An APU would be nice in the summer but the King Air is still a great airplane to me and I enjoy the flying.

I stayed mostly for financial reasons but I have to say I was very impressed with the way that Gama treated me and my family when my kids were born.

The growth is at Gama regarding upgrades and transitioning to the training department etc. 3 year King Air guys are now moving over to the XL and X but keep their current pay scale.

The schedule and crew meals are better at NJ for sure, but if you're looking for career progression you'd move more quickly at Gama.

You could go to a regional but from someone who spent 6 years at one I can assure you that your life will be miserable. I'm not sure the slight edge it would give you is worth it. Multi crew turbine PIC time is mainly what the majors want to see. There's not a huge difference between part 121 and part 135 other than the size of the aircraft. As someone already mentioned, Southwest particularly likes Net Jets guys and we've had our share go over there too.

Thanks, I was at a regional for 8 years and hated it, have no interest in a Major as driving 3 hours each way in traffic to a DC base 5 times a month does not interest me.

LJ JE
10-05-2018, 05:26 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

Iíve never seen a NetJets airplane ďsaving moneyĒ like that.

Our current fuel savings incentive payout program will put approximately $27/hour back in your pocket that you donít run the APU (assuming avg fuel price of $3.7/g).

Management never pushes this practice. As a matter of fact they tend to lean in the opposite direct and ask us to start the APU sooner in the event of problems on APU start.

Retractable
10-05-2018, 06:01 AM
Our current fuel savings incentive payout program will put approximately $27/hour back in your pocket that you donít run the APU (assuming avg fuel price of $3.7/g).



Management never pushes this practice. As a matter of fact they tend to lean in the opposite direct and ask us to start the APU sooner in the event of problems on APU start.



83 Octane in a Ferrari.

Got it.

Luxury.

flyskisail
10-05-2018, 06:39 AM
83 Octane in a Ferrari.

Got it.

Luxury.

I will run a GPU all day, any day, when it makes sense. I'll also get my rental car pulled up to the plane for me, go take a nap and then have a real dinner. :)

Retractable
10-05-2018, 07:02 AM
I will run a GPU all day, any day, when it makes sense. I'll also get my rental car pulled up to the plane for me, go take a nap and then have a real dinner. :)



Gotta pay that mortgage baby!

Dinner and rentals! [emoji1303]

flyskisail
10-05-2018, 11:31 AM
Gotta pay that mortgage baby!

Dinner and rentals! [emoji1303]

See that's the thing, it's not just about the money to me. I totally get that to some people it is. No slight against them or that at all.

For me, I prefer living well on the road, going home feeling refreshed and enjoy working with every single person I fly or interact with at the company. I enjoy the feeling of knowing the company is looking out for me and that they aren't just in it to make the biggest buck. (I know I will get flamed for this, "You'll get screwed", "you're an idiot", etc. etc. I've heard it all and don't care.)

I laugh when certain operators wont even talk to me. Literally I've had guys grunt at me after I say good morning.

LJ JE
10-05-2018, 11:35 AM
83 Octane in a Ferrari.

Got it.

Luxury.

The airplane actually feels more like a minivan compared to other jets. Thatís exactly what its used as anyway, hauling families across the country. Interesting metaphor though.

GeeWizDriver
10-06-2018, 07:20 AM
Gotta pay that mortgage baby!

Dinner and rentals! [emoji1303]


John, you realize your emojis donít work under this screen name either, right?

Guard
10-10-2018, 02:04 AM
Is there any hope of getting your preference between those? For someone who's interested in NJ but hates the Phenom?

I am interested in why you hate the Phenom (other that the "handles") I hear it is an extremely easy type and easy to fly airplane?

GeeWizDriver
10-10-2018, 09:51 AM
I am interested in why you hate the Phenom (other that the "handles") I hear it is an extremely easy type and easy to fly airplane?

Itís EXTREMELY cramped for anybody taller than about 6 feet, especially the Netjets version which added a cabinet behind the pilot seats robbing the crew of even more room. Iíve sat in the Embraer factory 300 demonstrator without the cabinet and it is easily the smallest cockpit Iíve ever been in, including the Lear 24. No chance of full control authority for somebody larger than Kenny Baker (the actor that played R2D2).

That is the primary bone of contention but there are also concerns among some pilots because the airplane was certified under Part 23. There are certain ďquirksĒ not seen in the rest of the fleets.

Retractable
10-10-2018, 10:05 AM
Itís EXTREMELY cramped for anybody taller than about 6 feet, especially the Netjets version which added a cabinet behind the pilot seats robbing the crew of even more room. Iíve sat in the Embraer factory 300 demonstrator without the cabinet and it is easily the smallest cockpit Iíve ever been in, including the Lear 24. No chance of full control authority for somebody larger than Kenny Baker (the actor that played R2D2).



That is the primary bone of contention but there are also concerns among some pilots because the airplane was certified under Part 23. There are certain ďquirksĒ not seen in the rest of the fleets.



Sounds like your head alone would make a flight of any duration difficult.

Much less your ego.

Learflyer
10-10-2018, 10:51 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

Iíve never seen a NetJets airplane ďsaving moneyĒ like that.



Donít be snooty. They probably showed early and decided on a GPU instead of all that noise blaring and gas wasting. Or...taking advantage of our fuel savings. Or...APU is MELíd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeeWizDriver
10-10-2018, 10:59 AM
Sounds like your head alone would make a flight of any duration difficult.

Much less your ego.

Thatís rich coming from you, John.

Was there anything inaccurate about my statement?

No. The previous poster asked why people might dislike the airplane. Itís cramped and certified under Part 23. Those are FACTS.

Retractable
10-10-2018, 11:52 AM
Thatís rich coming from you, John.



Was there anything inaccurate about my statement?



No. The previous poster asked why people might dislike the airplane. Itís cramped and certified under Part 23. Those are FACTS.



Ok ďPaulĒ... or ďMikeĒ... or ďBuddyĒ.

Guard
10-10-2018, 12:16 PM
Do they give you a "dream sheet" during indoctrination?

NJA04
10-10-2018, 04:17 PM
I picked out John in 2 posts on this thread then laughed when someone else did to.

Flyfalcons
10-10-2018, 04:23 PM
Do they give you a "dream sheet" during indoctrination?

If you mean a standing bid, not sure if they give you one during indoc but it's available on our company website and you can update it as much as you want. The standing bids are used when aircraft bids come out, so it's important to always know what you have a bid in for.

su2099
10-10-2018, 07:49 PM
See that's the thing, it's not just about the money to me. I totally get that to some people it is. No slight against them or that at all.

For me, I prefer living well on the road, going home feeling refreshed and enjoy working with every single person I fly or interact with at the company. I enjoy the feeling of knowing the company is looking out for me and that they aren't just in it to make the biggest buck. (I know I will get flamed for this, "You'll get screwed", "you're an idiot", etc. etc. I've heard it all and don't care.)

I laugh when certain operators wont even talk to me. Literally I've had guys grunt at me after I say good morning.

You wonít feel refreshed after you work 5-7 days at NetJets. My buddy had 27 hours of duty in the last 2 days of his current 7-day tour. The company switched him to nights for tomorrow so now they are giving him 20-hrs off and he will be reporting at 8pm tomorrow for hot spare until 4am.

Peloton
10-11-2018, 06:51 PM
John LOVES the Phenis cause it goes soooo fast below 10K! It even goes that fast with a third pilot onboard, check airman....so fast!

OhSnapAF
10-15-2018, 10:06 AM
350 service via a GPU.

High class.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180929/527f908daa84bdf301a454e0595931b4.jpg

Iíve never seen a NetJets airplane ďsaving moneyĒ like that.

No, high class is having some bloodshot eyed captain welcoming the crew on board becusse they extend 10 extra days a month.

The NetJets money savings comes from running crews into the ground with long duty days. That XO crew flew a leg and probably landed and went to the hotel. That NJA crew has another 3 legs and a min rest overnight to look forward to.

G550Guy
10-15-2018, 03:26 PM
Please tell he didnít create yet another.... APC profile.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeeWizDriver
10-15-2018, 05:44 PM
Please tell he didnít create yet another.... APC profile.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ok, I wonít tell you bud. But yes, he did. Could you please bust him with another screen shot? I donít have Tapatalk.... ;-)

Starchkr
10-15-2018, 11:27 PM
Back on topic for Gaurd:

Just my personal opinion here.

If youíre looking for a fun place to get great experience in super midsize jets, get some great experience and upgrade relatively quick while making decent money and an overall decent QOL, and fly with great folks, I would recommend XO. I did it for a while and I enjoyed it.

If youíre looking for a possible career destination and are willing to put in a decade-ish as an FO and donít care if you fly a light jet I think NJ is the better choice. More schedule options, a stronger long term business plan IMO, a better long term pay scale, better benefits, and decent work rules among other things make NJ a possible career.

Iíd have to agree with the gentleman who recommended going to a regional if your end game is the majors. If I was younger that would be my number one choice. The fractionals/charter world simply canít compete with the majors. That said, the majors arenít for everyone.

Guard
10-19-2018, 12:17 AM
Back on topic for Gaurd:

Just my personal opinion here.

If youíre looking for a fun place to get great experience in super midsize jets, get some great experience and upgrade relatively quick while making decent money and an overall decent QOL, and fly with great folks, I would recommend XO. I did it for a while and I enjoyed it.

If youíre looking for a possible career destination and are willing to put in a decade-ish as an FO and donít care if you fly a light jet I think NJ is the better choice. More schedule options, a stronger long term business plan IMO, a better long term pay scale, better benefits, and decent work rules among other things make NJ a possible career.

Iíd have to agree with the gentleman who recommended going to a regional if your end game is the majors. If I was younger that would be my number one choice. The fractionals/charter world simply canít compete with the majors. That said, the majors arenít for everyone.


Thanks for the feedback, my endgame is NOT to go to a major, I left a regional as I am sick of driving 3 hours each way in DC Traffic each way 5 times a month, home base and decent flying is what I want, plus seems like decent money to work 6 months a year. I'll pick up extra flying as wanted but after 27 year AF career I'm not looking to go anywhere else!

Flyfalcons
10-19-2018, 05:39 AM
Um, you are flying all 12 months of the year in the fractionals.

jt130
10-19-2018, 05:53 AM
Um, you are flying all 12 months of the year in the fractionals.
I think he’s referring to 7 on/off.

Flyfalcons
10-19-2018, 06:01 AM
I think heís referring to 7 on/off.

Yeah. Full time work.

OhSnapAF
10-19-2018, 06:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback, my endgame is NOT to go to a major, I left a regional as I am sick of driving 3 hours each way in DC Traffic each way 5 times a month, home base and decent flying is what I want, plus seems like decent money to work 6 months a year. I'll pick up extra flying as wanted but after 27 year AF career I'm not looking to go anywhere else!

Well your first mistake was to assume a regional is anywhere close to a major in terms of schedule and QOL. Nothing wrong with choosing QOL over money, but you will leave millions in retirement behind by going to NJA. The 7/7 schedule is all I really ever did and yes the wee off is nice, and you know exactly how to plan your future plans but there is no flexibility in that schedule, you will effectively work more days per month than most majors, and your days will be filled with 12 hour duty days and exhausting pace. Lots of trade offs to consider.

dirtysidedown
10-19-2018, 06:47 AM
All of these charter/fractional companies have good and bad attributes. I have been at XO for about 5 years now and actually enjoy going to work and flying with some great people. My only complaint is that i would prefer the 7/7 schedule that Netjets has, however we don't work nearly as hard as their crews do. We have great quality of life on the road and eat very well. And yes,i enjoy having my rental car brought plane side, lol. I have flown for the regionals and this is by far the best place to hang out waiting for that airline job to come through or stay a bit longer if this kind of flying is your thing.

tm602
10-19-2018, 08:07 AM
You wonít feel refreshed after you work 5-7 days at NetJets. My buddy had 27 hours of duty in the last 2 days of his current 7-day tour. The company switched him to nights for tomorrow so now they are giving him 20-hrs off and he will be reporting at 8pm tomorrow for hot spare until 4am.

I thought that only happened on go-home day!

OhSnapAF
10-19-2018, 10:58 AM
I thought that only happened on go-home day!

To clarify, it ALWAYS happens on go home day lol.

727C47
10-19-2018, 06:42 PM
Back on topic for Gaurd:

Just my personal opinion here.

If youíre looking for a fun place to get great experience in super midsize jets, get some great experience and upgrade relatively quick while making decent money and an overall decent QOL, and fly with great folks, I would recommend XO. I did it for a while and I enjoyed it.

If youíre looking for a possible career destination and are willing to put in a decade-ish as an FO and donít care if you fly a light jet I think NJ is the better choice. More schedule options, a stronger long term business plan IMO, a better long term pay scale, better benefits, and decent work rules among other things make NJ a possible career.

Iíd have to agree with the gentleman who recommended going to a regional if your end game is the majors. If I was younger that would be my number one choice. The fractionals/charter world simply canít compete with the majors. That said, the majors arenít for everyone.

This.......

86BravoPapa
10-19-2018, 07:32 PM
Back on topic for Gaurd:

If I was younger that would be my number one choice. The fractionals/charter world simply canít compete with the majors. That said, the majors arenít for everyone.

What's the oldest someone can start a career with hopes of climbing the ladder at the majors?

Starchkr
10-19-2018, 10:30 PM
What's the oldest someone can start a career with hopes of climbing the ladder at the majors?

I didnít mean to suggest that you canít go to a major when youíre older. I think that is really up to the individual and their circumstances.

For example, if you live in a low seniority domicile for the major you want to work for, you could have a fairly decent 5 year go at it at age 60. Youíd probably never make captain but if thatís not a concern for you the money would still be fair.

Starchkr
10-19-2018, 11:02 PM
All of these charter/fractional companies have good and bad attributes. I have been at XO for about 5 years now and actually enjoy going to work and flying with some great people. My only complaint is that i would prefer the 7/7 schedule that Netjets has, however we don't work nearly as hard as their crews do. We have great quality of life on the road and eat very well. And yes,i enjoy having my rental car brought plane side, lol. I have flown for the regionals and this is by far the best place to hang out waiting for that airline job to come through or stay a bit longer if this kind of flying is your thing.

Are you sure your daily schedule is better than Netjets? How do you know what the typical day is at NJ compared to XO? Back when I flew at XO I had several multi day stretches of 12+ hr duty days with 4 to 5 legs and some international thrown in for fun. Sure I had some cakewalk days too but there were plenty of busy long days. Iím not saying youíre wrong I just want to hear where you got your info to make the comparison.

One thing I always thought was a bad idea was not having defined rest. Has that changed? I got several late evening calls for trips without a defined rest period beforehand. I think thatís bad news and I hope theyíve changed that.

I agree with you on the 7/7 schedule. I likely would have stayed much longer had they offered an alternative schedule with less work days. I would have gladly accepted a bit less pay for what I think would have been a much better balance for me.

It was good to see they increased vacation time at XO. Unfortunately for me, that was changed after I left. I understand that NJ letís you use some of your accrued sick time for PTO days. If thatís true, they get a significant amount more PTO than XO guys.

I believe that you enjoy working there. I know I miss a lot about it. There are lots of good people there that I really enjoyed working with.

Worth mentioning, lots of XO pilots went to legacies and other majors so itís not like flying for XO would prohibit you from making it to the majors if thatís your goal.

Maybe youíre right about NJ and working harder IDK but they have some decent rules(much better than XO) when it comes to go home day and itís hard to argue against the 7/7 or even the 52 day schedule they offer(on a limited basis). Without a doubt the compensation for a long term pilot at NJ is better than XO. You do have to commit to a long wait to upgrade but if youíre willing to put in the time and love the fractional type of flying, donít mind restocking and cleaning etc. itís not a bad deal.

86BravoPapa
10-20-2018, 07:13 AM
I didnít mean to suggest that you canít go to a major when youíre older. I think that is really up to the individual and their circumstances.

For example, if you live in a low seniority domicile for the major you want to work for, you could have a fairly decent 5 year go at it at age 60. Youíd probably never make captain but if thatís not a concern for you the money would still be fair.

Thanks, what I meant to ask was: At what age could you start at a regional and probably not have time to progress to a widebody captain at a major?

Starchkr
10-20-2018, 07:34 AM
Thanks, what I meant to ask was: At what age could you start at a regional and probably not have time to progress to a widebody captain at a major?

Thatís a tough question to answer. Lots of pilots go to majors knowing they are likely to never make FO in a widebody let alone make captain. Youíd have to know what seniority number youíd have to reach to be awarded widebody captain in the domiciles that even have that position as an option. Then itís all projecting based on current data but it would be even less accurate than predicting the path of a hurricane a week out. There are just too many factors to predict with any certainty. The economy could take a turn for the worse or the airline could acquire another. Who knows?

My personal goal would be being able to have a reasonable amount of control over my schedule, not necessarily bringing home the biggest paycheck. IMO if youíre bringing home 200+ you should be able to have just about everything a normal citizen should ever need and then some. Who cares if youíre not bringing home widebody captain pay, youíd have it really d$mn good already. But I suppose Iím just motivated differently than some.

86BravoPapa
10-20-2018, 07:57 AM
Thatís a tough question to answer. Lots of pilots go to majors knowing they are likely to never make FO in a widebody let alone make captain. Youíd have to know what seniority number youíd have to reach to be awarded widebody captain in the domiciles that even have that position as an option. Then itís all projecting based on current data but it would be even less accurate than predicting the path of a hurricane a week out. There are just too many factors to predict with any certainty. The economy could take a turn for the worse or the airline could acquire another. Who knows?

My personal goal would be being able to have a reasonable amount of control over my schedule, not necessarily bringing home the biggest paycheck. IMO if youíre bringing home 200+ you should be able to have just about everything a normal citizen should ever need and then some. Who cares if youíre not bringing home widebody captain pay, youíd have it really d$mn good already. But I suppose Iím just motivated differently than some.

Thanks for the insight. Pay isn't my biggest factor, still struggling between 135 vs 121 path so any info helps a lot. The earnings and eventual QOL at the airlines is appealing but the variety of flying, locations, and to an extent, spontaneity of 135 is also appealing.

OhSnapAF
10-20-2018, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the insight. Pay isn't my biggest factor, still struggling between 135 vs 121 path so any info helps a lot. The earnings and eventual QOL at the airlines is appealing but the variety of flying, locations, and to an extent, spontaneity of 135 is also appealing.

I spent my entire career doing 135/91/91k before going to SWA three years ago and I couldnít be happier. I donít ever see heavy jet international, but I also wonít ever see the inside of a truck stop holiday inn express ever again either.

You will never live the good layover life at NetJets. You will do 12 hour days and 11 hour overnights with small variances in that, for the rest of your career. There are plenty of good 135s thst pay well and have great QOL, I worked at one before NetJets. 4 days in Aspen, all expenses paid, skiing and having a blast, then flying home. You will never see that ever, at NJA. Your chances of seeing that might be better at places like XO and WU but that really only happens at smaller companies, and there is always a risk of seeing the Hasbrook Hilton.

I commute to work at SWA, and I am still home more than I was at NJA and I will probably make 80k more on year 3 salary than I did on year 8 FO pay at NJA.

Find what works for you, itís a job so make sure you work to live, not live to work. There are morons at NJA that extend 10+ days a month (management pilots that are on the A team) and have wives/kids that hate them because of it. Find a way to be at home as much as possible while making money you can set yourself up financially for the future.

86BravoPapa
10-20-2018, 09:00 AM
I spent my entire career doing 135/91/91k before going to SWA three years ago and I couldnít be happier. I donít ever see heavy jet international, but I also wonít ever see the inside of a truck stop holiday inn express ever again either.

You will never live the good layover life at NetJets. You will do 12 hour days and 11 hour overnights with small variances in that, for the rest of your career. There are plenty of good 135s thst pay well and have great QOL, I worked at one before NetJets. 4 days in Aspen, all expenses paid, skiing and having a blast, then flying home. You will never see that ever, at NJA. Your chances of seeing that might be better at places like XO and WU but that really only happens at smaller companies, and there is always a risk of seeing the Hasbrook Hilton.

I commute to work at SWA, and I am still home more than I was at NJA and I will probably make 80k more on year 3 salary than I did on year 8 FO pay at NJA.

Find what works for you, itís a job so make sure you work to live, not live to work. There are morons at NJA that extend 10+ days a month (management pilots that are on the A team) and have wives/kids that hate them because of it. Find a way to be at home as much as possible while making money you can set yourself up financially for the future.

Thanks, I really appreciate the insights.

Das Auto
10-20-2018, 06:27 PM
Thanks, I really appreciate the insights.

Got to agree with the 7 on 7 off schedule. I did that flying air ambulance before my current 8 on 6 off schedule. The difference is significant. 7 on 7 off is 6 on 8 off if you go by nights in hotel vs your own bed.

Smooth at FL450
10-20-2018, 08:14 PM
One thing I always thought was a bad idea was not having defined rest. Has that changed? I got several late evening calls for trips without a defined rest period beforehand. I think thatís bad news and I hope theyíve changed that.



XOJET went to a legit defined duty/rest period several years ago. Huge improvement over the BS rolling rest you speak of that we all put up with for so long...

Starchkr
10-20-2018, 09:50 PM
XOJET went to a legit defined duty/rest period several years ago. Huge improvement over the BS rolling rest you speak of that we all put up with for so long...

Thatís good news.

dirtysidedown
10-21-2018, 08:40 AM
Xojet is now run more like an airline referring to a safety culture and organization instead of some half a$$ mom and pop 135 that many of us had flown at in the past.

su2099
10-21-2018, 10:04 AM
If you have kids at home, even 7 days is a long time to be away.

tm602
10-21-2018, 10:16 AM
Maybe you’re right about NJ and working harder IDK but they have some decent rules(much better than XO) when it comes to go home day

Those rules are written to be manipulated easily and they are. You will still fly 3 legs, have 3 hrs at the terminal, and get home around 10 pm.
Or if your partner and plane are gone, you will have magically been changed from mornings to afternoons and end up airlining in the late afternoon getting home late. You can always waive rest and go early if they are willing. Or you can dummy home if you feel sporty (if something goes wrong, its is YOUR problem, not theirs now).
Some people dummy alot as it helps them attain airline status but I'm not well versed in it. Just don't count on the idea of waking up, eating breakfast, and then going right home. It also helps to work the CC schedules because crews get staggered. I airline home with no flying about 30% of the time.

86BravoPapa
10-21-2018, 10:31 AM
Those rules are written to be manipulated easily and they are. You will still fly 3 legs, have 3 hrs at the terminal, and get home around 10 pm.
Or if your partner and plane are gone, you will have magically been changed from mornings to afternoons and end up airlining in the late afternoon getting home late. You can always waive rest and go early if they are willing. Or you can dummy home if you feel sporty (if something goes wrong, its is YOUR problem, not theirs now).
Some people dummy alot as it helps them attain airline status but I'm not well versed in it. Just don't count on the idea of waking up, eating breakfast, and then going right home. It also helps to work the CC schedules because crews get staggered. I airline home with no flying about 30% of the time.

What is "dummying"?

Starchkr
10-21-2018, 02:20 PM
Those rules are written to be manipulated easily and they are. You will still fly 3 legs, have 3 hrs at the terminal, and get home around 10 pm.
Or if your partner and plane are gone, you will have magically been changed from mornings to afternoons and end up airlining in the late afternoon getting home late. You can always waive rest and go early if they are willing. Or you can dummy home if you feel sporty (if something goes wrong, its is YOUR problem, not theirs now).
Some people dummy alot as it helps them attain airline status but I'm not well versed in it. Just don't count on the idea of waking up, eating breakfast, and then going right home. It also helps to work the CC schedules because crews get staggered. I airline home with no flying about 30% of the time.

Iím not sure whatís happening at XO these days but I would say 95% of the time I flew a fairly full day before being sent home on the airlines. I often had more than 18hrs of duty if you include the airline trip home. Every now and then Iíd get lucky and my replacement just happened to live where I was when being replaced so I could just go home.

Several times I had almost a full 24hrs between starting my day and getting home on the last day of 15. One time I did that on day 16. That was before they paid for extending a day(they said they would give you a day off in return). After I left I believe they improved their policy but Iím sure itís better at NJ. It sounds like youíre at NJ so Iíll leave that up to you to decide.

Starchkr
10-21-2018, 02:30 PM
If you have kids at home, even 7 days is a long time to be away.

Yes. Yes it is.

That said, IMHO NJ is offering the best in fractional flying when you consider all of the factors. Donít forget PTO/ vacation time. When you add that into the equation itís not too bad.

Theyíre offering a reduced schedule too, although Iíve read that is only offered to 10% of the pilots and my guess would be that it goes senior. Maybe someone from NJ can enlighten us.

su2099
10-21-2018, 02:44 PM
Yes. Yes it is.

That said, IMHO NJ is offering the best in fractional flying when you consider all of the factors. Donít forget PTO/ vacation time. When you add that into the equation itís not too bad.

Theyíre offering a reduced schedule too, although Iíve read that is only offered to 10% of the pilots and my guess would be that it goes senior. Maybe someone from NJ can enlighten us.

yes and the pay is much lower on the 52-day when compared to 7n7

su2099
10-21-2018, 02:47 PM
What is "dummying"?

you buy a ticket and get 100% reimbursed up to the amount that the company spends on your ticket. it's a pretty good system if you know the airline cancellation rules and they do vary. if you want to keep status on a particular airline, dummy tickets are a great way to go.

dirtysidedown
10-21-2018, 05:52 PM
Iím not sure whatís happening at XO these days but I would say 95% of the time I flew a fairly full day before being sent home on the airlines. I often had more than 18hrs of duty if you include the airline trip home. Every now and then Iíd get lucky and my replacement just happened to live where I was when being replaced so I could just go home.

Several times I had almost a full 24hrs between starting my day and getting home on the last day of 15. One time I did that on day 16. That was before they paid for extending a day(they said they would give you a day off in return). After I left I believe they improved their policy but Iím sure itís better at NJ. It sounds like youíre at NJ so Iíll leave that up to you to decide.
Transition days have gotten much better at Xojet the last few years. Looking back at my last few go home days i have been getting home early afternoon, as a matter of fact i can't even remember getting home past dinner time lately. I do live in a major city, so plenty of direct airline flights.

tm602
10-21-2018, 10:19 PM
Iím not sure whatís happening at XO these days but I would say 95% of the time I flew a fairly full day before being sent home on the airlines. I often had more than 18hrs of duty if you include the airline trip home. Every now and then Iíd get lucky and my replacement just happened to live where I was when being replaced so I could just go home.

Several times I had almost a full 24hrs between starting my day and getting home on the last day of 15. One time I did that on day 16. That was before they paid for extending a day(they said they would give you a day off in return). After I left I believe they improved their policy but Iím sure itís better at NJ. It sounds like youíre at NJ so Iíll leave that up to you to decide.
I'm staying unless SWA calls, my post was just answering a question.

GeeWizDriver
10-22-2018, 09:07 PM
you buy a ticket and get 100% reimbursed up to the amount that the company spends on your ticket. it's a pretty good system if you know the airline cancellation rules and they do vary. if you want to keep status on a particular airline, dummy tickets are a great way to go.

No, you don’t.

IF you are going to your domicile but want to use a different airline than what the company booked, you will get back 100% of what you paid IF it is the same OR LESS as what the company would have paid. If your ticket is more than what the company WOULD have paid, you get UP TO what the company would have paid.

If you want to go someplace OTHER than domicile, the company will only reimburse 90% of what you paid UP TO 90% of what THEY would have paid to get you home.

Marko
10-23-2018, 05:12 AM
yes and the pay is much lower on the 52-day when compared to 7n7That is not correct. It is 5% lower, which most would agree is not "much lower."

Marko
10-23-2018, 05:16 AM
No, you donít.

If you want to go someplace OTHER than domicile, the company will only reimburse 90% of what you paid UP TO 90% of what THEY would have paid to get you home.

Not exactly, but close. They will reimburse 100% of your cost if it falls within 90% of their cost. So, up to 90% of the company cost is most correct. That also applies if you want to use the ticket after your last day, even if it is to go to your domicile.

GeeWizDriver
10-23-2018, 10:40 AM
Not exactly, but close. They will reimburse 100% of your cost if it falls within 90% of their cost. So, up to 90% of the company cost is most correct. That also applies if you want to use the ticket after your last day, even if it is to go to your domicile.

Not in my experience. They paid 90% of what I paid to go someplace else even though the ticket I booked was substantially less than what they would have paid to get me home.

wankel7
10-23-2018, 12:40 PM
yes and the pay is much lower on the 52-day when compared to 7n7

If you choose the 8 day tour option on the 52 day you get a three percent bump. So it really isn't that much lower than the 7n7.

The 52 day is actually the highest daily rate. So if you want pick up an extended day or two and enjoy the extra time off the 52 day affords nearly 7n7 pay. You are limited to 4 extended days per four months though.

Marko
10-23-2018, 01:58 PM
Not in my experience. They paid 90% of what I paid to go someplace else even though the ticket I booked was substantially less than what they would have paid to get me home.I'd ask about this again and maybe contact the union. May not be too late to get fully reimbursed.

Retractable
10-24-2018, 03:12 AM
I'd ask about this again and maybe contact the union. May not be too late to get fully reimbursed.



Gee Whiz isnít the sharpest tool in the shed.

But at least heís stubborn.

You canít tell him what to do. He flies a Gulfstream.

OhSnapAF
10-24-2018, 05:06 AM
Gee Whiz isnít the sharpest tool in the shed.

But at least heís stubborn.

You canít tell him what to do. He flies a Gulfstream.

Says the guy who doesnít listen to the FAA with regard to airspeed below 10,000.

GeeWizDriver
10-24-2018, 05:51 AM
Says the guy who doesnít listen to the FAA with regard to airspeed below 10,000.

And says the guy who needs three screen names to vomit his inane drivel.

OhSnapAF
10-24-2018, 12:58 PM
And says the guy who needs three screen names to vomit his inane drivel.

Well, from what I remember about him, if it really is him, is his severe insecurity. Never flew with the guy as I was on different fleets but everyone knew who he was, and I probably the most flattering compliment I had ever heard about him was something to the effect of "he is completely off base and has a screw loose, but not too terrible of a guy" and that is even from people that he thinks really like and respect him. Him making multiple accounts wouldn't shock me at all, he has to go somewhere to spew unrealistic things because nobody on the old message board takes him seriously, sounds like most don't take him seriously in here either. You would think years of him being wrong all the time would make him change his tune but I guess not. Its super entertaining though.

OtherGuy
10-24-2018, 01:35 PM
He is also a cancer to the pilot group. The clown regularly reports what is said on our MB directly to management. His day is coming though...

OhSnapAF
10-24-2018, 04:43 PM
He is also a cancer to the pilot group. The clown regularly reports what is said on our MB directly to management. His day is coming though...

Wouldn't shock me one bit if he aided the mole on the MB. He held a picket sign to keep appearances up during informational protests but I haven't heard one pro-pilot thing about him, from anyone that knows him. He just extends and extends and then tries to sell that upgrades are coming soon...

Peloton
10-24-2018, 04:54 PM
Lock him up
lock him up
lock him up
lock him up