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View Full Version : Chasing QOL fast


KenNoisewaterMD
09-24-2018, 07:20 AM
Specifically interested in junior people with a great QOL, but open to anyone...

For those of you that chase QOL over money:

What company:
Where based:
How have you been there:
What's your schedule (including time it takes to commute):
What do you make (ballpark):
Do you commute:

This could be helpful for those of us, like myself, that really only need to make a minimum of 100k/yr to make things work, and want to be home with the fam as much as possible.


rickair7777
09-24-2018, 07:24 AM
Any of the big six should offer QOL flexibility (ie you have some trade-space between money and schedule flexibility). Some LCC/ULCC may offer good schedules (but less money).

If you can relocate and live in base, even better.

If you can relocate to a junior base in the NE US, even more better.

schmookeeg
09-24-2018, 07:28 AM
I would be interested in answers to this question too, but at the 50K mark, which seems to be the entry level these days.

I'm currently doing 135 cargo and the amount of time away is rather grim. I'd love to know what flying avenues provide the minimum time away from home. I'm too late in my career to care about hours building and ever bidding 121.


crxpilot
09-24-2018, 10:06 AM
Minimum time away from home......Allegiant.

All day trips 99% of the time.

ReadyRsv
09-24-2018, 01:04 PM
SouthWest has the most flexibility it seems. FDX seems to have lots of time of if you get a widebody (but long trips). Living in base will always net a significant increase in QOL. Getting to a jr base on a growing fleet can be a crapshoot but help a lot. (UAL 737 and 320 in same base doing similar flying can net wildly different reserve stints)

symbian simian
09-24-2018, 02:31 PM
SouthWest has the most flexibility it seems. FDX seems to have lots of time of if you get a widebody (but long trips). Living in base will always net a significant increase in QOL. Getting to a jr base on a growing fleet can be a crapshoot but help a lot. (UAL 737 and 320 in same base doing similar flying can net wildly different reserve stints)

NK has waaaayyy better flexibility. Having said that, average hardline at SWA is 90 hours credit at $132, 17 days off, NK 75hr credit at $112 and 14 days off (both based on 3rd year FO). If you work 15 days SWA will get 15K including profit sharing, NK is less than $8K.

KenNoisewaterMD
09-24-2018, 04:57 PM
NK has waaaayyy better flexibility.

Why?......

symbian simian
09-24-2018, 06:29 PM
Why?......

Crew scheduling is required to have 75% of the days "green" (more reserves available than required) before trip trading starts. This means you can normally drop any trip (no, not Xmas) you don't want to fly. At SWA you can only put your trip in trip trade/giveaway and hope someone else will pick it up. Still doesn't make up for the insane difference in pay/culture/efficiency.

Flightcap
09-24-2018, 11:41 PM
Crew scheduling is required to have 75% of the days "green" (more reserves available than required) before trip trading starts. This means you can normally drop any trip (no, not Xmas) you don't want to fly. At SWA you can only put your trip in trip trade/giveaway and hope someone else will pick it up. Still doesn't make up for the insane difference in pay/culture/efficiency.

This. And the kicker is that in order to do that they have to reduce the desired reserve margin across the entire month until 75% are green. The result is very high reserve surplus above the margin for days that already had adequate staffing. Fourteen hours into Daily Open Time my base still has 28 green days in October. Requests are still being processed though so we'll see about my drop....!

RckyMtHigh
09-25-2018, 03:31 AM
My biggest factor in my job choice was quality of life over the first five years and the biggest factor in that was living in base. SWA was the fastest route to where I wanted to live, months of commuting vice years. In year three, I average 12 days of work a month, bid for early returns on last day when I can (home before noon on the last day is almost another day off). Most people at swa seem to be chasing the $, so lower paying easy trips are usually plentiful to trade with the company. Benefits for us slackers of no-pbs bidding is with monthly overlap correction can drop a day or two off your schedule and your week of vacation turns into 18+ days off. Dropping trips in their entirety is not easy. You need someone else to pick up from you and until youíre senior, probably not going to happen.

I chose SWA knowing I was giving up faster seniority and earning potential down the road (long term QOL). But with only a 15 year career, those were less important. If I was looking at a longer career, retirement numbers and variety of flying elsewhere would have made the decision more difficult.

Broncofan
09-27-2018, 06:16 PM
My opinion is just get on with someone that has a base where you live. After that QOL follows. I'm reserve at UAL but live in base, and life is pretty amazing. But if I lived in Atlanta, it would not be, unless I worked for Delta.

hoover
09-27-2018, 09:23 PM
My biggest factor in my job choice was quality of life over the first five years and the biggest factor in that was living in base. SWA was the fastest route to where I wanted to live, months of commuting vice years. In year three, I average 12 days of work a month, bid for early returns on last day when I can (home before noon on the last day is almost another day off). Most people at swa seem to be chasing the $, so lower paying easy trips are usually plentiful to trade with the company. Benefits for us slackers of no-pbs bidding is with monthly overlap correction can drop a day or two off your schedule and your week of vacation turns into 18+ days off. Dropping trips in their entirety is not easy. You need someone else to pick up from you and until youíre senior, probably not going to happen.

I chose SWA knowing I was giving up faster seniority and earning potential down the road (long term QOL). But with only a 15 year career, those were less important. If I was looking at a longer career, retirement numbers and variety of flying elsewhere would have made the decision more difficult.

True but you have to do AMs to get home by noon.
I've done a few PMS that don't report till 2100. That's pretty sweet also.

Saabs
09-28-2018, 02:34 AM
True but you have to do AMs to get home by noon.
I've done a few PMS that don't report till 2100. That's pretty sweet also.

Iíve heard swa guys say AM and Pm before. Is that a set in stone thing? Can you not bid trips that leave after noon on day one and get back before noon on day three?

SlipKid
09-28-2018, 06:09 AM
I’ve heard swa guys say AM and Pm before. Is that a set in stone thing? Can you not bid trips that leave after noon on day one and get back before noon on day three?

Not normally at SW. Sometimes CS splits open time trips that start as a PM on the first day, but are AMs the subsequent days.

Gotta be careful when bidding for open time, especially now that we can't give them away anymore. :eek:

Saabs
09-28-2018, 06:30 AM
Not normally at SW. Sometimes CS splits open time trips that start as a PM on the first day, but are AMs the subsequent days.

Gotta be careful when bidding for open time, especially now that we can't give them away anymore. :eek:

Ok so itís just how they build the trips. Got it. At least junior guys seem to get more days off than other airlines over there so that kinda negates it.

webecheck
09-28-2018, 07:11 AM
Ok so itís just how they build the trips. Got it. At least junior guys seem to get more days off than other airlines over there so that kinda negates it.

No airline is really all that different. 10 months on the line with UA and I had Thanksgiving off and 19 total off in a 31 day bid month. And I was able to hold Hawaii and Latin America trips. What could be better than that if you have to fly 737s? If I want to make more money, I just go into open time and pick up. When I was tired of knee pain from 737 transcons, I bid the 756.

Saabs
09-28-2018, 10:49 AM
No airline is really all that different. 10 months on the line with UA and I had Thanksgiving off and 19 total off in a 31 day bid month. And I was able to hold Hawaii and Latin America trips. What could be better than that if you have to fly 737s? If I want to make more money, I just go into open time and pick up. When I was tired of knee pain from 737 transcons, I bid the 756.
I think swa is unique in terms of the mornings or evenings. As in not commutable. I donít commute but like to show up around lunch or afternoon on day one and day three be home by lunch or early afternoon.

webecheck
09-28-2018, 12:19 PM
I think swa is unique in terms of the mornings or evenings. As in not commutable. I donít commute but like to show up around lunch or afternoon on day one and day three be home by lunch or early afternoon.

Perhaps, as we can have a fully commutable schedule no problem. On the flip side, day 1 might be a redeye and day 4 is an early east coast wake up. So while commutable, some of those are way painful.

If your reserve system am/pm too? If so, that is probably nicer during the busy months when you know you're getting used.

Ed Force One
09-28-2018, 03:30 PM
Spirit, while not an AM/PM airline, is pretty easy to get one or the other. I'm a PM kinda guy, not very senior in my spot, yet it's extremely rare that I ever have to set an alarm clock.

more windshear
09-30-2018, 05:47 PM
Minimum time away from home......Allegiant.

All day trips 99% of the time.

Haha but itís still allegiant at the end of the day. 7th grade football equivalent.

saturn
10-01-2018, 07:27 AM
Deltuh here. I'm bidding reserve by choice, since I have young kids at home. In fact, in many bases the plug can get a line because reserve QOL can be so good senior folks bid it. Everybody is on long call with a minimum call out of 12 hours. You'll get 14 hard off days a month, and you can swap them around. Work rules have a lot of commuter friendly language (first reserve block no reports before 12pm, select trips to be assigned on your reserve days, deviate from deadhead). So far this year I've averaged 10 days of work a month, probably 6 of which I'm home for part of the calendar day. I'm not senior either, I see many guys that fly the equivalent of a 4-day or less for a monthly guarantee. Some can (if the stars align) pickup premium flying on those days off for extra pay.
Widebody reserve is even better, since inside 3 days of RSV, you basically cannot do an ocean crossing and are unusable. And say you do get used? 1 leg to Paris, full day off, 1 leg back. Do two a month. Tough life.

Some months I feel like a stay at home parent, some are busy and I am yo-yo-ing to the airport a lot. Overall it's the best TAFB-Credit ratio I've had. And that's just the reserve side of the house.

Skyward
10-01-2018, 09:35 AM
Perhaps, as we can have a fully commutable schedule no problem. On the flip side, day 1 might be a redeye and day 4 is an early east coast wake up. So while commutable, some of those are way painful.

If your reserve system am/pm too? If so, that is probably nicer during the busy months when you know you're getting used.

Yes, reserve is also AM/PM at SW. Itís a pretty simple and consistent system.

I prefer PM trips with a late start each day and no alarm clocks :)

Tjamaica
10-01-2018, 04:47 PM
Deltuh here. I'm bidding reserve by choice, since I have young kids at home. In fact, in many bases the plug can get a line because reserve QOL can be so good senior folks bid it. Everybody is on long call with a minimum call out of 12 hours. You'll get 14 hard off days a month, and you can swap them around. Work rules have a lot of commuter friendly language (first reserve block no reports before 12pm, select trips to be assigned on your reserve days, deviate from deadhead). So far this year I've averaged 10 days of work a month, probably 6 of which I'm home for part of the calendar day. I'm not senior either, I see many guys that fly the equivalent of a 4-day or less for a monthly guarantee. Some can (if the stars align) pickup premium flying on those days off for extra pay.
Widebody reserve is even better, since inside 3 days of RSV, you basically cannot do an ocean crossing and are unusable. And say you do get used? 1 leg to Paris, full day off, 1 leg back. Do two a month. Tough life.

Some months I feel like a stay at home parent, some are busy and I am yo-yo-ing to the airport a lot. Overall it's the best TAFB-Credit ratio I've had. And that's just the reserve side of the house.

Sounds like life is good on reserve. Curious, can you drop reserve days or is it once you get your schedule it is basically set in stone?

KenNoisewaterMD
10-01-2018, 05:23 PM
Deltuh here. I'm bidding reserve by choice, since I have young kids at home. In fact, in many bases the plug can get a line because reserve QOL can be so good senior folks bid it. Everybody is on long call with a minimum call out of 12 hours. You'll get 14 hard off days a month, and you can swap them around. Work rules have a lot of commuter friendly language (first reserve block no reports before 12pm, select trips to be assigned on your reserve days, deviate from deadhead). So far this year I've averaged 10 days of work a month, probably 6 of which I'm home for part of the calendar day. I'm not senior either, I see many guys that fly the equivalent of a 4-day or less for a monthly guarantee. Some can (if the stars align) pickup premium flying on those days off for extra pay.
Widebody reserve is even better, since inside 3 days of RSV, you basically cannot do an ocean crossing and are unusable. And say you do get used? 1 leg to Paris, full day off, 1 leg back. Do two a month. Tough life.

Some months I feel like a stay at home parent, some are busy and I am yo-yo-ing to the airport a lot. Overall it's the best TAFB-Credit ratio I've had. And that's just the reserve side of the house.

Why would a person ever not bid for this?...

sailingfun
10-02-2018, 04:03 AM
Sounds like life is good on reserve. Curious, can you drop reserve days or is it once you get your schedule it is basically set in stone?

You can drop reserve days if they have coverage above the minimum required. If coverage is below that number you have 3 silver bullets to use each year where you can still drop as long as coverage is 25% of required. You get one APD and two IVD blocks for that. You can also swap and move off days within certain parameters. As mentioned reserve is very good at Delta. If your category has good staffing you will not work much. If the staffing is poor you may be able to roll thunder and generate 120 to 180 hours pay and still work only 12 days give or take.

Sliceback
10-02-2018, 05:46 AM
Why would a person ever not bid for this?...

Money or better control of their schedule. Or ability to pick, or avoid, certain types of flying or city pairs. The difference between reserve pay and hustling as a line holder is easily 25-30% and can reach 40%. If you’re a senior enough to hold premium trips, and they’re available, the equation changes which is why a handful of the most senior guys bid reserve.

Reserve is about 60-70% of the workload at 80-90% of the pay.

I’ve averaged 12.5-13 days per month for years. Narrow body and wide body. Low, with some reserve flying, was 11days a month. High was 13.75. If you start throwing in commuting it gets higher. Living in base makes a huge difference.

ImperialxRat
10-03-2018, 11:47 PM
If the staffing is poor you may be able to roll thunder and generate 120 to 180 hours pay and still work only 12 days give or take.

Can you explain what this means? I didnít follow it.

GuardPolice
10-04-2018, 06:11 AM
Can you explain what this means? I didnít follow it.



Rolling thunder is a Delta technique whereby a reserve pilot picks up green slips on days off. Pay back days for those green slip days are put on the next reserve days on his schedule, thus freeing him up for more green slips. It takes the right category and more importantly the right amount of seniority to successfully pull this off on a regular basis.

OOfff
10-04-2018, 01:19 PM
You'll get 14 hard off days a month.

Might want to check that contract. Itís 12-13 depending on the month

flensr
10-04-2018, 09:41 PM
Haha but itís still allegiant at the end of the day. 7th grade football equivalent.

Seriously?

Someone would complain about flying a brand new 320 a couple of legs a day and sleeping at home every night? Yea if they're having a mgt meltdown I can see avoiding, but long-term it sounds like the easiest job you'll ever turn down.

saturn
10-05-2018, 10:15 PM
Might want to check that contract. Itís 12-13 depending on the month

I did refer. 14 or 13. Never 12. I have 14 this month, 14 last month.

And for those who don't speak Delta: Greenslip is a trip that pays x2 for line holders, x1 over guarantee for reserves. If a reserve flies one on their days off, they can be credited new days off over future reserve days (payback days). This in turn frees up more days off to pickup more greenslips, creating more above guarantee money and more payback days. Guys can create a cascading sequence called rolling thunder, effectively doubling their pay for the month. Greenslips get awarded by seniority, so the tenured pilots are the only ones realistically with a chance to achieve this. You can also do rolling thunder as a line holder.

Biggest con for reserve as a commuter is you can be converted to short call (only 1 day at a time), up to 6/7 days a month. It's an unofficial 2hr report. However if you are on your last day of reserve before your off day, and assigned short call, you will be auto released by 12pm (some fine print, not every time). Live in base, SC is no biggie.

Rama
10-05-2018, 10:40 PM
Imho the best qol is Hawaiian 717.
The caveat is you have to live on Oahu.
Commuting can work, but really this is a day job for people like me.
Other fleets may get more days off for the same credit, but I drive to work, maybe pick up the kids or whatever, then drive home.
Maybe have a week of overnights for training for the year.

TallWeeds
10-06-2018, 05:43 AM
Biggest con for reserve as a commuter is you can be converted to short call (only 1 day at a time), up to 6/7 days a month. It's an unofficial 2hr report. However if you are on your last day of reserve before your off day, and assigned short call, you will be auto released by 12pm (some fine print, not every time). Live in base, SC is no biggie.

Even though I live close to the airport I avoid reserve because of this. IMHO, short call is the worst thing in the world. The lack of oversight with regards to how and why SC is assigned needs to be fixed. Or it could be the twenty minute call out I did at a previous shop for years. I hate being tied to the phone.

saturn
10-06-2018, 06:14 AM
Even though I live close to the airport I avoid reserve because of this. IMHO, short call is the worst thing in the world. The lack of oversight with regards to how and why SC is assigned needs to be fixed. Or it could be the twenty minute call out I did at a previous shop for years. I hate being tied to the phone.

Who cares if they say it's a twenty minute callout? Get there around 2 hours, no pressure or q's asked. I find the callout ladder for SC is spelled out and predictable. However, it's still a mystery as to how many will be assigned in each day of each bucket.
Just a couple of modifications to SC for the better and our reserve would be darn near perfect. (contractual & visable SC requirements, create stronger reward for SC which discourages CS flippant overuse, rewards and reinforces in-base pilots to YS, commuters commute less or get their hotels reimbursed.

SoFloFlyer
10-06-2018, 05:37 PM
They always say to go with who calls first, but they also say to live in base. If you already have roots, family, friends, wife has a career, how realistic is it to actually follow that advice? In that instance, commuting isnít really a choice.

swaayze
10-07-2018, 05:45 AM
They always say to go with who calls first, but they also say to live in base. If you already have roots, family, friends, wife has a career, how realistic is it to actually follow that advice? In that instance, commuting isnít really a choice.

Sure it is. You apply only to carriers with a strong base where you live. Like I (eventually) did. And, yes, it severely limits your career potential but you have to know your priorities. I get tired of hearing people say that commuting isnít a choice.

Is it often ďseemingly no choiceĒ? Sure. But donít confuse the two scenarios.

sailingfun
10-07-2018, 06:37 AM
Even though I live close to the airport I avoid reserve because of this. IMHO, short call is the worst thing in the world. The lack of oversight with regards to how and why SC is assigned needs to be fixed. Or it could be the twenty minute call out I did at a previous shop for years. I hate being tied to the phone.

You would really hated it in the past when every single day was shortcall. There is no 20 minute callout at Delta. Arrive at the airport two hours after your called and you will never hear a word about it. To keep it real however at Delta the average number of shortcall days system wide averages about 3.2 per month.

sailingfun
10-07-2018, 06:40 AM
They always say to go with who calls first, but they also say to live in base. If you already have roots, family, friends, wife has a career, how realistic is it to actually follow that advice? In that instance, commuting isnít really a choice.

It would be realistic and required if you worked any other job other than airline pilot. My friends with jobs paying 200K and up get transferred all the time. Itís only not realistic in most peopleís mind because we have the option. Other professions donít.

hilltopflyer
10-07-2018, 05:22 PM
It would be realistic and required if you worked any other job other than airline pilot. My friends with jobs paying 200K and up get transferred all the time. Itís only not realistic in most peopleís mind because we have the option. Other professions donít.

But within someoneís career with the same company the bases donít close and open at a whim.

hilltopflyer
10-07-2018, 05:23 PM
Sure it is. You apply only to carriers with a strong base where you live. Like I (eventually) did. And, yes, it severely limits your career potential but you have to know your priorities. I get tired of hearing people say that commuting isnít a choice.

Is it often ďseemingly no choiceĒ? Sure. But donít confuse the two scenarios.

Commuting for me isnít a choice. I donít live anywhere near any major hub for any airline and Iím not going to move my kids away from all of their extended family so it isnít a choice for me.

jumppilot
10-08-2018, 02:08 AM
Commuting for me isnít a choice. I donít live anywhere near any major hub for any airline and Iím not going to move my kids away from all of their extended family so it isnít a choice for me.


Of course itís a choice. You weighed the pros and cons and decided you were going to commute - your post said as much.

Like a previous poster said, many professions truly donít have a choice. If you get relocated and donít move you lose your job. Hard to come to the office everyday when you live 500 miles away.

NoDeskJob
10-08-2018, 04:34 AM
Sure itís a ďchoiceĒ to commute.... My spouse is in the military. So we live where the DOD says. So much for my F-ing choice!
Guess I made the ďchoiceĒ to marry a military woman and should NEVER have done so!
*sarcasm*

flensr
10-08-2018, 09:40 AM
Sure it’s a “choice” to commute.... My spouse is in the military. So we live where the DOD says. So much for my F-ing choice!
Guess I made the “choice” to marry a military woman and should NEVER have done so!
*sarcasm*

You're half right but it sounds like you're still bitter about it.

"Guess I made the “choice” to marry a military woman". Should have put a period right there and been done with it, like everyone else who married someone in the military. Get over that resentment or it'll mess with you for the rest of your life and possibly ruin your marriage.

Because you DID have a choice. And you made it, eyes open, knowing what it meant, what it would get you, what it would cost you. And you still made it. Don't try to pretend you're a victim or had no choice, because you did and still do.

One of the most bitter pilots I ever flew with went to USAF UPT. His wife fought it every step of the way, to the point where he quit. Then they divorced anyhow. The rest of his life he gets to live with that, how it went down and the opportunity he lost (gave up). He and his wife made their choices and it still went all to crap. In the end, he's making bank in the airlines but the path he ended up on based on the choices he and his wife made left a lot of room for resentment when looking back on it. Don't be that guy. Or if you are that guy, try to realize that everyone makes the best choices they can based on what they know and value at that moment. Second guessing in hindsight is pointless when it makes you feel bad, unless you're able to use that self-reflection to make better and happier choices going forward, every day.

Just don't pretend that you don't have choices. Because you made choices that had consequences you could see coming, and you're still making choices. The universe doesn't owe you a menu of the best optimal choices, you have to fight to create options and then you still have to choose among them.

badflaps
10-08-2018, 02:30 PM
Sure itís a ďchoiceĒ to commute.... My spouse is in the military. So we live where the DOD says. So much for my F-ing choice!
Guess I made the ďchoiceĒ to marry a military woman and should NEVER have done so!
*sarcasm*

Hey, you still have the commisary and the Class 6, not to mention the OWC.

NoDeskJob
10-08-2018, 02:43 PM
You're half right but it sounds like you're still bitter about it.

"Guess I made the ďchoiceĒ to marry a military woman". Should have put a period right there and been done with it, like everyone else who married someone in the military. Get over that resentment or it'll mess with you for the rest of your life and possibly ruin your marriage.

Because you DID have a choice. And you made it, eyes open, knowing what it meant, what it would get you, what it would cost you. And you still made it. Don't try to pretend you're a victim or had no choice, because you did and still do.

One of the most bitter pilots I ever flew with went to USAF UPT. His wife fought it every step of the way, to the point where he quit. Then they divorced anyhow. The rest of his life he gets to live with that, how it went down and the opportunity he lost (gave up). He and his wife made their choices and it still went all to crap. In the end, he's making bank in the airlines but the path he ended up on based on the choices he and his wife made left a lot of room for resentment when looking back on it. Don't be that guy. Or if you are that guy, try to realize that everyone makes the best choices they can based on what they know and value at that moment. Second guessing in hindsight is pointless when it makes you feel bad, unless you're able to use that self-reflection to make better and happier choices going forward, every day.

Just don't pretend that you don't have choices. Because you made choices that had consequences you could see coming, and you're still making choices. The universe doesn't owe you a menu of the best optimal choices, you have to fight to create options and then you still have to choose among them.

You donít get it. Iím not bitter at all. I love my life.
What I hate is when people seriously make statements like ďcommuting is a choiceĒ.
It is not a choice for everyone.

I have a lot of other choice words Iíd like to give you, but I know the post would get removed.

Qotsaautopilot
10-08-2018, 03:18 PM
You don’t get it. I’m not bitter at all. I love my life.
What I hate is when people seriously make statements like “commuting is a choice”.
It is not a choice for everyone.

I have a lot of other choice words I’d like to give you, but I know the post would get removed.

You’re not understanding him. Commuting is a choice. You are choosing to do because you chose to marry who you did AND chose to be an airline pilot at the same time. You knew that would mean commuting and you chose it anyway. Not saying it was a bad choice just saying you chose to commute.

Pilots that say they have roots and family and kids in school etc so they don’t have a choice but to commute is nonsense. That is the definition of choice. If they worked in nearly any other line of work and were offered a job away from their hometown they would have to move for that job. And if they were transferred (read: base closure) or promoted (read: upgrade) they’d have to move again if they wanted to stay employed or make more money etc. there is no commuting option.

The difference is pilots have the option to commute. Option means choice. That’s also why most contracts provide moving benefits in a displacement scenario. Your job was essentially transferred elsewhere so the company is going to pay to relocate you. You choose to or not to take advantage of that. If you don’t you become a commuter and that was a choice. Just like living in BFE (btw I like BFE much more than hub cities) hours away from your place of employment is a choice. You don’t HAVE to commute.

I commuted for 7 years and have lived in base for about 5. there are places I’d rather live than in base but the choice to commute and the cons associated far outweighs those pros. Different people have a different cost benefit analysis. It’s always a choice though.

A few things are for certain though. As a commuter you sacrifice a some level of earning potential, varying amounts of time (usually more than you think), and add some level of stress.

SoFloFlyer
10-08-2018, 10:57 PM
Youíre not understanding him. Commuting is a choice. You are choosing to do because you chose to marry who you did AND chose to be an airline pilot at the same time. You knew that would mean commuting and you chose it anyway. Not saying it was a bad choice just saying you chose to commute.

Pilots that say they have roots and family and kids in school etc so they donít have a choice but to commute is nonsense. That is the definition of choice. If they worked in nearly any other line of work and were offered a job away from their hometown they would have to move for that job. And if they were transferred (read: base closure) or promoted (read: upgrade) theyíd have to move again if they wanted to stay employed or make more money etc. there is no commuting option.

The difference is pilots have the option to commute. Option means choice. Thatís also why most contracts provide moving benefits in a displacement scenario. Your job was essentially transferred elsewhere so the company is going to pay to relocate you. You choose to or not to take advantage of that. If you donít you become a commuter and that was a choice. Just like living in BFE (btw I like BFE much more than hub cities) hours away from your place of employment is a choice. You donít HAVE to commute.

I commuted for 7 years and have lived in base for about 5. there are places Iíd rather live than in base but the choice to commute and the cons associated far outweighs those pros. Different people have a different cost benefit analysis. Itís always a choice though.

A few things are for certain though. As a commuter you sacrifice a some level of earning potential, varying amounts of time (usually more than you think), and add some level of stress.

I totally get what youíre saying. I really do. Commuting is a choice by itís actual definition. But since thereís a crazy thing called life, practically speaking, commuting is not a choice. Just like uprooting for a job across the country wouldnít happen because you donít want to put yourself in that situation.

Youíre saying everything is a choice. You choose not to commute. You to commute. You choose to marry someone. You choose a specific job/field. Etc.. etc.. etc.. but thatís not practical since you can marry a person and not know expect to have that person be relocated. To have that that person decide to want to live in a different state or to want to stay in that same state. You eat the point. Everything is TECHNICALLY a choice, but practically speaking, communities is not a choice (MOST of the time).

swaayze
10-10-2018, 06:35 AM
Now we're getting somewhere SoFlo.

Ultimately, you have a choice. Sometimes it feels otherwise because we may not want to acknowledge that we are ultimately responsible for where we are in life (with very few exceptions). To say ďitís not really a choice because....Ē is to imply that life is fair, that there is a lack of control over your own decisions, and it plays the blame game. If you really donít want to commute, just donít. Quit, or move, or stick with the commute based on your priorities, but itís disingenuous to say unequivocally that you donít have a choice. (BTW, Iím speaking generally wrt ďyouĒ, not you specifically SoFlo since youíve illuminated the difference).

I know that sounds cold, but I really do empathize with those who commute but donít want to. Iíve BTDT and it caused me to subsequently make some hard decisions to avoid it, giving up plenty of money and career aspirations in the process, so I guess I just have little tolerance when I hear ďitís not a choiceĒ. Reminds me of one of my new favorite sayings: ďHard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life.Ē

4thefamily
10-10-2018, 07:10 AM
Pilot/financial planner here, Iím searching for the same and can at least tell you to rule out Jetblue. My family has been ďbringing humanity back to air travelĒ for over ten years at the expense of our own humanity. We have always chosen to live in base and itís still hard to not feel like a long haul truck driver. I just missed my 9yr oldís first soccer goal after 4yrs of soccer and Iím supposed to be the assistant coach! I canít commit to anything. Church, sports, poker night... I always say ďCount me in and hopefully Iíll be there half the timeĒ. On paper, everythingís great. Well into six figures, sixteen days off, and flying an Airbus... In reality, a computer program and a bunch of guys changing desires above me in seniority determina which days off, and what kinds of trips Iím flying. Once a year or so I get out and backs (no overnight stay) and two-day trips (only one overnight stay) and think maybe Iíve finaly made it but the next month reminds me that I will never make it here. This month and the next Iím choosing reserve since Iím only eligible for 3, 4, and 5 day trips. So, while 16 days off sounds like a yes to family, 14 days of traveling even with zero commute days is still a giant no!
Financially speaking:
1. Allegiant pays half (giant ballpark out of my a$$) of what a ďmajorĒ or ďLegacyĒ pays, but it isnít even close to being the same job.

4thefamily
10-10-2018, 08:57 AM
Pilot/financial planner here, Iím searching for the same and can at least tell you to rule out Jetblue. My family has been ďbringing humanity back to air travelĒ for over ten years at the expense of our own humanity. We have always chosen to live in base and itís still hard to not feel like a long haul truck driver. I just missed my 9yr oldís first soccer goal after 4yrs of soccer and Iím supposed to be the assistant coach! I canít commit to anything. Church, sports, poker night... I always say ďCount me in and hopefully Iíll be there half the timeĒ. On paper, everythingís great. Well into six figures, sixteen days off, and flying an Airbus...
In reality, a computer program and a bunch of guys above me in seniority determine which days off, and what kinds of trips Iím flying. Once a year or so I get out and backs (no overnight stay) and two-day trips (only one overnight stay) and think maybe Iíve finaly made it but the next month reminds me that I will probably never make it here. This month and the next Iím choosing reserve since Iím only eligible for 3, 4, and 5 day trips. So, while 16 days off sounds like a yes to family, 14 days of traveling even with zero commute days is still a giant no! After over 15yrs at Mesa and Jetblue, I think Iíve learned that Delta, United, and Southwest may give you a chance considering their superior work rules, but the rest are an uphill battle unless you have found a niche that works from the start like home every night at Allegiant, Hawaiian 717 inter island turns, or something that works for you from the start as oposed to after gaining seniority some day in the distant future (typical carrot)
Also consider work rules very seriously and if the company works around them. Contracts are finite and ways around them are infinite. If your company wants to connect you to the matrix and suck you dry, they easily can. Do the pilots and management have a good relationship?
Also, what does AM/PM mean, at Allegiant and Southwest, AM doesnít mean 0430 like it does at Jetblue and PM doesnít mean until the sun comes up. I highly recommend finding a place that will let you have either/or consistently as oposed to both at any time as long as itís legal according to FAR 117. Itís the difference between being a happy family man/woman with a consistent rest cycle and an irritable AH who looks like a crypt keeper and whoís family doesnít enjoy being around anyway.

Financially speaking:
1. Allegiant pays half (giant ballpark out of my a$$) of what a ďmajorĒ or ďLegacyĒ pays, but it isnít even close to being the same job.
Out and backs and home every night vs. long haul truck driver. It would be like driving an eighteen wheeler 4 days a week from down the street to a town two hours away and then back home and then comparing your career to a long haul trucker who is gone half the month. It shouldnít even be compared. Itís also an Airbus which I would be happy to retire on.
2. You donít ďneedĒ a minimum of 100k.
The average household income is far less and the average net worth of 99% of people on Earth is estimated to be less than 20k U.S. Dollars. After removing the less than 1% that have over 40% of the wealth...

My current consideration is Watching Elf and Liar Liar and then doing the right thing for the family. Delta, Allegiant, back to financial planning, lemonade stand...

Unless you find a niche, this is not a family friendly career. Your competition is single people, empty nesters, people who donít put ďhome with the familyĒ before $$$ for various reasons, and us poor few who are trying to be in-base at home with our spouse and young kids. We will probably always be the minority without much of a voice during contract negotiations.

wilco811
10-10-2018, 10:42 AM
Allegiant pays half of what a major or legacy pays is a bunch of balloni. Just compare the rates, JB and G4 pay roughly the same for 12 yr CA (A320), Both paying $220/hr plus. JB maybe a wee bit higher but saying half the pay is completely untrue. Maybe compared to a senior WB CA at the legacies but even then it wonít be close to half.

crxpilot
10-10-2018, 11:52 AM
Allegiant pays half of what a major or legacy pays is a bunch of balloni. Just compare the rates, JB and G4 pay roughly the same for 12 yr CA (A320), Both paying $220/hr plus. JB maybe a wee bit higher but saying half the pay is completely untrue. Maybe compared to a senior WB CA at the legacies but even then it wonít be close to half.

Some hustlers at Allegiant passed 400k$ last year so they donít exactly pay chump change. 375k+ for the year isnít unfathomable as well (12 year captain)

Qotsaautopilot
10-10-2018, 03:49 PM
You guys know Jetblue just signed a contract right

Blue Dude
10-10-2018, 06:46 PM
All I know is that prison sex is more gentle than what the company just did to the pilot group with their first CBA-constrained pairing set. The smaller, non-commuter bases just had the QOL there destroyed.

wilco811
10-10-2018, 07:12 PM
You guys know Jetblue just signed a contract right

Yeah I was comparing g4 with b6 under their most recent contracts.

sailingfun
10-11-2018, 04:42 AM
Allegiant pays half of what a major or legacy pays is a bunch of balloni. Just compare the rates, JB and G4 pay roughly the same for 12 yr CA (A320), Both paying $220/hr plus. JB maybe a wee bit higher but saying half the pay is completely untrue. Maybe compared to a senior WB CA at the legacies but even then it won’t be close to half.

You need to add all pay and benefits. A senior widebody CA at Delta can easily make 500,000 a year and 600,000 is doable with some effort. Higher is possible in some categories with a lot of effort. A select few will break 900K this year. Hourly rates are only part of the equation. As a example a top scale CA is getting about 346 per hour international. He will however fill his 415C bucket up by June and even as early as April. Once that happens his rate jumps to 401 an hour for the rest of the year. In addition he will see about 15% profit sharing jumping that rate to a effective 460 an hour. If he flies a overtime trip his rate is in excess of 900 an hour at that point. If he is getting reroute pay his rate is over 900. If his trip is purchased for training and he picks up a overtime trip on top of it he is looking at 1300 plus an hour. Then there is the overtime with conflict option. It’s rare but highly lucrative.
Hourly pay has to be taken in context with the rest of the contract. The same hourly rate at two different airlines can produce a vastly different paycheck.

crxpilot
10-11-2018, 05:19 AM
You need to add all pay and benefits. A senior widebody CA at Delta can easily make 500,000 a year and 600,000 is doable with some effort. Higher is possible in some categories with a lot of effort. A select few will break 900K this year. Hourly rates are only part of the equation. As a example a top scale CA is getting about 346 per hour international. He will however fill his 415C bucket up by June and even as early as April. Once that happens his rate jumps to 401 an hour for the rest of the year. In addition he will see about 15% profit sharing jumping that rate to a effective 460 an hour. If he flies a overtime trip his rate is in excess of 900 an hour at that point. If he is getting reroute pay his rate is over 900. If his trip is purchased for training and he picks up a overtime trip on top of it he is looking at 1300 plus an hour. Then there is the overtime with conflict option. Itís rare but highly lucrative.
Hourly pay has to be taken in context with the rest of the contract. The same hourly rate at two different airlines can produce a vastly different paycheck.


We get it. Delta is superior and the rest of us suck. Good to know.

sailingfun
10-11-2018, 05:45 AM
We get it. Delta is superior and the rest of us suck. Good to know.

I actually assume there are similar opportunities at UAL and I know SWA can produce well beyond their hourly rate. I believe they have 737 CAís approaching 500k now and then and 400K is not hard.

nuball5
10-11-2018, 05:46 AM
You need to add all pay and benefits. A senior widebody CA at Delta can easily make 500,000 a year and 600,000 is doable with some effort. Higher is possible in some categories with a lot of effort. A select few will break 900K this year. Hourly rates are only part of the equation. As a example a top scale CA is getting about 346 per hour international. He will however fill his 415C bucket up by June and even as early as April. Once that happens his rate jumps to 401 an hour for the rest of the year. In addition he will see about 15% profit sharing jumping that rate to a effective 460 an hour. If he flies a overtime trip his rate is in excess of 900 an hour at that point. If he is getting reroute pay his rate is over 900. If his trip is purchased for training and he picks up a overtime trip on top of it he is looking at 1300 plus an hour. Then there is the overtime with conflict option. Itís rare but highly lucrative.
Hourly pay has to be taken in context with the rest of the contract. The same hourly rate at two different airlines can produce a vastly different paycheck.

What's the chance your average 30-40 year old that's hired tomorrow would ever see widebody CA anywhere besides American? I'm guessing pretty slim.

labbats
10-11-2018, 06:04 AM
Wide body CA lineholder is typically reserved for someone approaching retirement. No way Iíd be interested in chasing dollars over free time at that point in my life.

I do believe you have a strong point about soft pay though. Allegiant just got a first contract and with unity we can work on achieving more in that category in a couple years.

wilco811
10-11-2018, 07:09 AM
Widebody CA is not a realistic comparison to most us. In any event a senior CA at DL doing 900K must have like one day off a month. Itís not a realistic comparison. I was just trying to make the point that for normal flying conditions (like bidding normal flying and not flying on days off) the majors all float around the same compensation. JB ,Spirit ,legacies have better 401K and slightly better rates for A320 payscale but I was just trying to make the point that G4 pay is not half of legacy pay like someone said on this thread previously.

KenNoisewaterMD
10-11-2018, 07:24 AM
This could be helpful for those of us, like myself, that really only need to make a minimum of 100k/yr to make things work, and want to be home with the fam as much as possible.

Letís stick to topic. This isnít about earning potential, this is about earning a comfortable living while being home with the fam as much as possible, having excellent flexibility, great work rules, etc. so you can maximize your time outside of work.

sailingfun
10-11-2018, 07:52 AM
What's the chance your average 30-40 year old that's hired tomorrow would ever see widebody CA anywhere besides American? I'm guessing pretty slim.

30 years old probably, 40 probably not but you never know. The same numbers go down the list. Lots of narrowbody CAís will reach 500k this year.

wilco811
10-11-2018, 07:58 AM
Letís stick to topic. This isnít about earning potential, this is about earning a comfortable living while being home with the fam as much as possible, having excellent flexibility, great work rules, etc. so you can maximize your time outside of work.

To answer your first post:

-G4
-year 3 FO
-PGD base
-Day trips mostly mornings, usually home by 2pm or earlier
-About 120K plus 401K
-15 min drive to work which is my commute

forgot to bid
10-11-2018, 04:26 PM
What's the chance your average 30-40 year old that's hired tomorrow would ever see widebody CA anywhere besides American? I'm guessing pretty slim.

Probably right

vroll1800
10-11-2018, 05:07 PM
What's the chance your average 30-40 year old that's hired tomorrow would ever see widebody CA anywhere besides American? I'm guessing pretty slim.

I'd say the chances would be very good for such an individual at Purple or Brown. ;):cool:

DDrowt8
10-11-2018, 05:17 PM
Ken,
If you're still interested

What company: SW
Where based: LAS
How have you been there: just over 3 years

What's your schedule (including time it takes to commute): 12-14 days on, choose am or pm sched like others said; I usually work 3 days on 4 days off, but cs has been putting more back to back 2 days on the schedule in the last few months (better to be home between 2 days, then gone for 4 in my book). I like to bid for max days off per month, then trip trade (tt) w company or other pilots to max my pay per day so I still get most days off per month. It's also easy to trade w co or other pilots to get am or pm trips if your original schedule isn't to your liking. I'm about half way up seniority in base so don't have enough time here to get summer vacation, but one of reasons I chose SW was because of the scheduling flexibility (tt w company or other pilots). Last two summers, I was able rearrange my trips to get a block of 8-10 days off in June/July which was awesome in my book. When I started, I was able to get LAS right away and was on Res for 7 months. I worked 15-16 days per month on Res and usually got pd 95-110 trips. Our Res system has changed since I was on Res, and now (depending on your base), you may originally have 15-16 days of Res, but only work 12-14 days. I think most Res make 95-115 trips.

What do you make (ballpark): 135-150K based on 90-100 trips per month (we use trips vs hrs like everyone else, but it's similar); That doesn't include 401k, profit sharing, benefits, etc.
I usually start the month w 85-90 trips, then use tt to max my pay per day and wind up w 90-100 for 12-13 days worked, then pick up an extra day or two if we need more $$ that month.

Do you commute: no, but there are usually plenty of commutable lines talking w those who do (most commuters live w/in 1 hr of base - SoCal, SLC, Reno, etc)

Everyone I talked w from the airlines before I started said 'live where you're based' (which it sounds like you already know). Talk w as many people from airlines you're interested in to find out the good, bad and ugly before you apply. I'm sure you'll find the best match for you to get the QOL and pay you want.

Good Luck

detpilot
10-11-2018, 10:04 PM
All I know is that prison sex is more gentle than what the company just did to the pilot group with their first CBA-constrained pairing set. The smaller, non-commuter bases just had the QOL there destroyed.You know about prison sex from... experience?

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ZeroTT
10-15-2018, 06:27 AM
You know about prison sex from... experience?



No, just what he heard from your mom

detpilot
10-15-2018, 10:04 AM
No, just what he heard from your momVery nice. He must have taken her lessons to heart and put them to good use, since he has another man defending him on the internet! I'm assuming the delay in response time was because you were busy washing his socks?

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Clearedforils
10-16-2018, 10:39 AM
To answer your first post:

-G4
-year 3 FO
-PGD base
-Day trips mostly mornings, usually home by 2pm or earlier
-About 120K plus 401K
-15 min drive to work which is my commute

Ditto:

-G4
-Year 4 Airbus Capt
-LAX base
-Day Trips, all mornings and am reserve mix, home by 2 PM or earlier if flying.
-About 210K (average <30 hrs/month of flying)
-Mostly 12 hard days off a month(not counting days on reserve and not getting called)
-25 minute drive to work
-Beach Time everyday.

hilltopflyer
10-17-2018, 02:47 AM
Ditto:

-G4
-Year 4 Airbus Capt
-LAX base
-Day Trips, all mornings and am reserve mix, home by 2 PM or earlier if flying.
-About 210K (average <30 hrs/month of flying)
-Mostly 12 hard days off a month(not counting days on reserve and not getting called)
-25 minute drive to work
-Beach Time everyday.

If I was from a g4 base Iíd do it. Itís pretty much just an office hours type of job.

52Flyer
10-17-2018, 07:04 AM
Ditto:

-G4
-Year 4 Airbus Capt
-LAX base
-Day Trips, all mornings and am reserve mix, home by 2 PM or earlier if flying.
-About 210K (average <30 hrs/month of flying)
-Mostly 12 hard days off a month(not counting days on reserve and not getting called)
-25 minute drive to work
-Beach Time everyday.Dumb new guy question, but does G4 stand for Allegiant?

Also is it possible to fly day trips regularly at either SWA or AA? (assuming one would need to be senior to hold that schedule)

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Jet Jockey 00
10-17-2018, 07:12 AM
Dumb new guy question, but does G4 stand for Allegiant?

Also is it possible to fly day trips regularly at either SWA or AA? (assuming one would need to be senior to hold that schedule)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

Yes, and yes prob. after 8-9 years at AA you could be the top 3% in the right seat NB and hold any trips you want. G4 is a good deal TODAY if you live near a base. But I would not count on them having the same biz model in 30 years of day trips only.

Clearedforils
10-17-2018, 04:35 PM
Yes, and yes prob. after 8-9 years at AA you could be the top 3% in the right seat NB and hold any trips you want. G4 is a good deal TODAY if you live near a base. But I would not count on them having the same biz model in 30 years of day trips only.

True, no one has seen a crystal ball. But, even if we start connecting the coasts..a large majority of G4 flying would still mirror the current out & back model, it's just the way it's set up!

However, things can change but 30 years is a long time to think ahead though! Heck, even a couple of years ago, I didn't think I'd use an app to cruise around on a "Bird scooter"...that too in any city or abroad!

Vegaspilot
10-21-2018, 11:47 AM
At the rate G4 is losing sight of their core business, Iíll be surprised if they still exist in their current form in 5 years let alone 30.


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jcountry
11-03-2018, 08:36 AM
Why do people insist on referring to airlines by these stupid two-digit identifiers??

How hard is it to simply type Allegiant?

BKbigfish
11-03-2018, 08:42 AM
Why do people insist on referring to airlines by these stupid two-digit identifiers??

How hard is it to simply type Allegiant?

7 letters harder than it is to type G4.

ecam
11-03-2018, 09:13 AM
Why do people insist on referring to airlines by these stupid two-digit identifiers??

How hard is it to simply type Allegiant?

7 letters harder than it is to type G4.

In the military, it would have been A+8.

GuardPolice
11-03-2018, 09:53 AM
Oh look everyone. It’s the envious Delta troll who has to take a swipe at every Delta pilot on these boards. Your MO is tiresome.



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