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View Full Version : Envoy Direct Entry Captain


Oregon Trail
09-26-2018, 08:41 AM
Does anyone have the contract or information for DEC?
I have a pre-offer but it says First Officer at the top. Is this discussed in more detail after the background checks and review board when selecting a class date?


RUkidding
09-26-2018, 10:52 AM
I had the same- I think itís just a generic letter.

Jetunderwing
09-26-2018, 02:27 PM
Dont come here as a direct entry captain....


Oregon Trail
09-26-2018, 03:58 PM
Dont come here as a direct entry captain....

Thank you... that was very informative.
Do you have any suggestions that arenít half the pay and half the bonus for an fo position at another regional?

flysooner9
09-26-2018, 08:40 PM
Thank you... that was very informative.
Do you have any suggestions that arenít half the pay and half the bonus for an fo position at another regional?

Come to Piedmont so thereís more captains junior to me haha.

MD-11Loader
09-27-2018, 02:44 AM
Come to Piedmont so thereís more captains junior to me haha.

Yeah, so he can be in training for ten months and have an even worse contract. SMH

in2deep
09-27-2018, 06:21 AM
Thank you... that was very informative.
Do you have any suggestions that arenít half the pay and half the bonus for an fo position at another regional?

Endeavor.

I donít think theyíre doing DECs per say, but youíd upgrade practically immedietally.

flysooner9
09-27-2018, 07:49 AM
Yeah, so he can be in training for ten months and have an even worse contract. SMH

Nah just 4 months for DECís and your getting 75 hrs of captain pay while you sit at home.

MD-11Loader
09-27-2018, 07:59 AM
Nah just 4 months for DECís and your getting 75 hrs of captain pay while you sit at home.

But at less pay

flysooner9
09-27-2018, 09:39 AM
Lol never said PDT was better. I just want more people below me.

Tyrion
09-27-2018, 10:20 AM
It's a little bit of legal dancing from Envoy. They don't hire street captains, everyone comes to Envoy as an FO. However, before you start, they can pay you a bonus. On day one, you will pick an FO job off the board of FO vacancies... then as soon as they wipe the board clean, you will be displaced to the left seat of either the CRJ or 145 in either LGA or ORD.

There have been typically 5-10 DECs per class, so relative seniority builds. They seem to be running a displacement bid every 3 months to force qualified FO's to the left seat. Many don't want to because they have seniority in the right seat, weekends and holidays off, and they aren't trying to build a resume because they will flow in the time it would take them to build 1000 hrs of PIC.

MD-11Loader
09-27-2018, 10:58 AM
It's a little bit of legal dancing from Envoy. They don't hire street captains, everyone comes to Envoy as an FO. However, before you start, they can pay you a bonus. On day one, you will pick an FO job off the board of FO vacancies... then as soon as they wipe the board clean, you will be displaced to the left seat of either the CRJ or 145 in either LGA or ORD.

There have been typically 5-10 DECs per class, so relative seniority builds. They seem to be running a displacement bid every 3 months to force qualified FO's to the left seat. Many don't want to because they have seniority in the right seat, weekends and holidays off, and they aren't trying to build a resume because they will flow in the time it would take them to build 1000 hrs of PIC.

Except youíre not allowed to flow without being a captain, and when youíre upgraded you are flow locked for a year. Once you hit 800 hours the company can even assign you flying if you try to hide on reserve. They will get their captains one way or another.

2992set
09-27-2018, 11:04 AM
what planes/bases are DECs getting assigned?

BigZ
09-27-2018, 11:15 AM
what planes/bases are DECs getting assigned?

Whatever is in the standing vacancy. Used to be LGA 145, then for the last month and a half all went to ORD CRJ, and last class went to ORD 145. For the upcoming bid there is no LGA 145 or ORD CRJ slots, so it might get interesting.

Oregon Trail
09-27-2018, 03:44 PM
It's a little bit of legal dancing from Envoy. They don't hire street captains, everyone comes to Envoy as an FO. However, before you start, they can pay you a bonus. On day one, you will pick an FO job off the board of FO vacancies... then as soon as they wipe the board clean, you will be displaced to the left seat of either the CRJ or 145 in either LGA or ORD.

There have been typically 5-10 DECs per class, so relative seniority builds. They seem to be running a displacement bid every 3 months to force qualified FO's to the left seat. Many don't want to because they have seniority in the right seat, weekends and holidays off, and they aren't trying to build a resume because they will flow in the time it would take them to build 1000 hrs of PIC.

Thank you, now it makes a little more sense.

ill be commuting out of Florida MCO/PBI/MLB, wich of the bases would be easiest commute, ORD or LGA?

mketch11
09-27-2018, 04:11 PM
Thank you, now it makes a little more sense.

ill be commuting out of Florida MCO/PBI/MLB, wich of the bases would be easiest commute, ORD or LGA?

Iíve flown with a couple seniorish FAs who live in Orlando and commute to DFW over any of the other bases.

ShyGuy
09-27-2018, 05:48 PM
Dont come here as a direct entry captain....


How times change.

There was one point at American Eagle when it was 10 yrs just to hold your first CA spot.

havick206
09-27-2018, 06:35 PM
Iíve flown with a couple seniorish FAs who live in Orlando and commute to DFW over any of the other bases.

DFW wonít be an option for a DEC for a long time, unless some anomaly occurs.

E6BAV8R
09-28-2018, 09:53 AM
DFW wonít be an option for a DEC for a long time, unless some anomaly occurs.

What about getting DFW as an FO?

NoValueAviator
09-28-2018, 09:54 AM
What about getting DFW as an FO?

New hire, 9-12 months, or never depending on fleet.

JulesWinfield
09-28-2018, 10:22 AM
Endeavor.

I donít think theyíre doing DECs per say, but youíd upgrade practically immedietally.

Nope

Filler

E6BAV8R
09-28-2018, 02:01 PM
New hire, 9-12 months, or never depending on fleet.

Interesting. I was under the impression that new-hires were getting 175 DFW or LGA. Is that not true? Which airplane would get you DFW based out of training as fast as possible?

EnyFlyr
09-28-2018, 02:42 PM
New hire, 9-12 months, or never depending on fleet.

Then once you get to DFW youíre going to be on reserve for a while, iíve seen guys get to DFW just to bid back to LGA. This is in the 145

havick206
09-28-2018, 03:42 PM
Then once you get to DFW youíre going to be on reserve for a while, iíve seen guys get to DFW just to bid back to LGA. This is in the 145

Same with guys that bid to MIA on the 145. They usually do one bid cycle then bid back to Lga

bigtime209
09-28-2018, 04:46 PM
Then once you get to DFW youíre going to be on reserve for a while, iíve seen guys get to DFW just to bid back to LGA. This is in the 145

Well...if you live in the DFW area, RSV isn't a terrible deal. If you're still commuting into DFW, then that's a big code red. Abort abort abort.

NoValueAviator
09-29-2018, 07:55 AM
Interesting. I was under the impression that new-hires were getting 175 DFW or LGA. Is that not true? Which airplane would get you DFW based out of training as fast as possible?

DFW first day is typically available on the 175. The problem is getting a 175 slot, and it's a high risk proposition - FO's are seat locked here, meaning that once you get the 145 or god forbid the CRJ, it's either quit or learn to love the suck.

The 145 is much more likely than the CRJ, luckily, and you can actually fly after 4-5 months of reserve in NY. You'll be on never-fly reserve for upwards of a year if you go LGA-ORD-DFW like many of us are doing though.

CaseTractor
09-29-2018, 08:37 AM
DFW first day is typically available on the 175. The problem is getting a 175 slot, and it's a high risk proposition - FO's are seat locked here, meaning that once you get the 145 or god forbid the CRJ, it's either quit or learn to love the suck.

The 145 is much more likely than the CRJ, luckily, and you can actually fly after 4-5 months of reserve in NY. You'll be on never-fly reserve for upwards of a year if you go LGA-ORD-DFW like many of us are doing though.

When getting close to expiring on landings, HI6 says contact CP. CPO office said they don't handle that, call scheduling, scheduling said they don't handle that and not sure who to call next. I ended up getting a trip by luck. Scheduling would not give me one out of reserve list order.

To anyone who has actually expired, how do you get the sim, and what does it consist of? Is it a graded event like recurrent or just 3 landings wherever they can fit you in?

havick206
09-29-2018, 08:55 AM
When getting close to expiring on landings, HI6 says contact CP. CPO office said they don't handle that, call scheduling, scheduling said they don't handle that and not sure who to call next. I ended up getting a trip by luck. Scheduling would not give me one out of reserve list order.

To anyone who has actually expired, how do you get the sim, and what does it consist of? Is it a graded event like recurrent or just 3 landings wherever they can fit you in?

Email your CP, CS and the training contact. That way thereís a paper trail if/when you go out of currency you will be pay protected because you can show you did everything on your end. If they want to play hot potato then itís on them.

Phone calls do nothing because then itís he said she said apart from CS and dispatch theyíre not recorded.

NoValueAviator
09-29-2018, 09:05 AM
I got 4 weeks of back-to-back 5 leg days when my landings were about to expire, for consolidation, so I don't know.

Bruno82
09-29-2018, 12:46 PM
Iím a DEC on the line now. All the paperwork I got said FO. Donít worry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

E6BAV8R
09-30-2018, 07:41 AM
DFW first day is typically available on the 175. The problem is getting a 175 slot, and it's a high risk proposition - FO's are seat locked here, meaning that once you get the 145 or god forbid the CRJ, it's either quit or learn to love the suck.

The 145 is much more likely than the CRJ, luckily, and you can actually fly after 4-5 months of reserve in NY. You'll be on never-fly reserve for upwards of a year if you go LGA-ORD-DFW like many of us are doing though.

What's so wrong with the CRJ side? Is DFW even a CRJ base? How long are you seat locked for? That's the first I've heard of a seat lock at Envoy.

The only thing I would care about is getting a DFW base, as I live there (hence the interest in Envoy). Reserve sucks everywhere, but as long as I'd live in base it isn't miserable. Are you guys that fat on Reserves that reservists never fly?

Thanks for answering questions.

BigZ
09-30-2018, 08:00 AM
What's so wrong with the CRJ side? Is DFW even a CRJ base? How long are you seat locked for? That's the first I've heard of a seat lock at Envoy.

The only thing I would care about is getting a DFW base, as I live there (hence the interest in Envoy). Reserve sucks everywhere, but as long as I'd live in base it isn't miserable. Are you guys that fat on Reserves that reservists never fly?

Thanks for answering questions.
CRJ only base is ORD. but there were no newhire FOs on the CRJ since 03/18

greendotplus10
09-30-2018, 08:10 AM
What's so wrong with the CRJ side? Is DFW even a CRJ base? How long are you seat locked for? That's the first I've heard of a seat lock at Envoy.

The only thing I would care about is getting a DFW base, as I live there (hence the interest in Envoy). Reserve sucks everywhere, but as long as I'd live in base it isn't miserable. Are you guys that fat on Reserves that reservists never fly?

Thanks for answering questions.

I want to get to DFW as well. Problem with the CRJ at MQ is that it is only flying in ORD. New hires are seat locked on equipment for 2 years. Since ORD is the only CRJ base it means you are also base locked for 2 years. I actually want to fly the CRJ but I care about domicile a lot more. From the other threads it looks like base and equipment assignment is a toss up.

You could get lucky and get DFW 175/145; in which case life as an FO would be pretty good. Or, draw the short straw and get ORD CRJ FO. The commute between DFW and ORD is a particularly tough one. But then, your forced upgrade will come in no time and you'll be in LGA or ORD.

It looks like Mesa is a much better option for holding DFW as soon as possible, both as FO and CA.

NoValueAviator
09-30-2018, 08:45 AM
What's so wrong with the CRJ side? Is DFW even a CRJ base? How long are you seat locked for? That's the first I've heard of a seat lock at Envoy.

The only thing I would care about is getting a DFW base, as I live there (hence the interest in Envoy). Reserve sucks everywhere, but as long as I'd live in base it isn't miserable. Are you guys that fat on Reserves that reservists never fly?

Thanks for answering questions.

Like everything here, when it comes to reserve your experience is going depend on what fleet you get. I can tell you from experience that the 145 is comically overstaffed with FOís. Subtracting consolidation flying, Iíve averaged about 10 hours a month. My loss could be your gain though, if you get the 175 - comparatively luxurious with short involuntary reserve commitments and even FO critical coverage sometimes.

The question I have is why have our planners created such a huge staffing imbalance?

havick206
09-30-2018, 08:59 AM
Like everything here, when it comes to reserve your experience is going depend on what fleet you get. I can tell you from experience that the 145 is comically overstaffed with FOís. Subtracting consolidation flying, Iíve averaged about 10 hours a month. My loss could be your gain though, if you get the 175 - comparatively luxurious with short involuntary reserve commitments and even FO critical coverage sometimes.

The question I have is why have our planners created such a huge staffing imbalance?

15 Transtates 145ís heading our way

pitchattitude
09-30-2018, 09:09 AM
15 Transtates 145ís heading our way

That has been thrown around a lot, but I think they are essentially ďpass through.Ē I think we are supposed to transfer some 140s out to PSA or Piedmont. I think that fleet is supposed to stay flat.

That was my understanding between the fleet projection and some conversions. But the truth changes regularly.

bigtime209
09-30-2018, 09:26 AM
Like everything here, when it comes to reserve your experience is going depend on what fleet you get. I can tell you from experience that the 145 is comically overstaffed with FOís. Subtracting consolidation flying, Iíve averaged about 10 hours a month. My loss could be your gain though, if you get the 175 - comparatively luxurious with short involuntary reserve commitments and even FO critical coverage sometimes.

The question I have is why have our planners created such a huge staffing imbalance?

Because they have a lot more information than we do on how the big picture will be shaping up moving into 2019. Reading in between the lines, there are definitely things in motion that we aren't privy to yet.

BigZ
09-30-2018, 09:27 AM
I want to get to DFW as well. Problem with the CRJ at MQ is that it is only flying in ORD. New hires are seat locked on equipment for 2 years. Since ORD is the only CRJ base it means you are also base locked for 2 years. I actually want to fly the CRJ but I care about domicile a lot more. From the other threads it looks like base and equipment assignment is a toss up.

You could get lucky and get DFW 175/145; in which case life as an FO would be pretty good. Or, draw the short straw and get ORD CRJ FO. The commute between DFW and ORD is a particularly tough one. But then, your forced upgrade will come in no time and you'll be in LGA or ORD.

It looks like Mesa is a much better option for holding DFW as soon as possible, both as FO and CA.

Few points need to be clarified
- you are not seatlocked for 2 years as an FO. You are seatlocked until upgrade. FOs cannot bid to other equipment. Same equipment to other base only.
- you upgrade on the CRJ will not come in no time since you will be sitting reserve until the jets are parked

Guys got DFW on first/second bid this spring/summer on 175/145

E6BAV8R
10-01-2018, 03:54 AM
Few points need to be clarified
- you are not seatlocked for 2 years as an FO. You are seatlocked until upgrade. FOs cannot bid to other equipment. Same equipment to other base only.
- you upgrade on the CRJ will not come in no time since you will be sitting reserve until the jets are parked

Guys got DFW on first/second bid this spring/summer on 175/145

So it seems that 175 / 145 is what is most junior and what most people are getting anyway? It'd just be some time until you may get to bid to DFW?

That is pretty ridiculous that they wouldn't tell you what Base / Equipment you get awarded before you start training and you can't bid to a different base/equipment. I'm also willing to bet that they won't give you an option to hold a class date until you get the equipment you want? Say if I tell them I only want the 175 and I'll hold out from starting training until they have an opening in a 175 class?

Can you bid a different Base / Equipment when you are a Captain?

MD-11Loader
10-01-2018, 06:49 AM
That has been thrown around a lot, but I think they are essentially ďpass through.Ē I think we are supposed to transfer some 140s out to PSA or Piedmont. I think that fleet is supposed to stay flat.

That was my understanding between the fleet projection and some conversions. But the truth changes regularly.

Search jetnet for Robert Isomís video on 5/8 where he outlines the WO fleet. Envoy will be a 200 plane fleet, PSA 150 planes, and PDT will be about 60. PDT is almost to 60 and they canít manage what they have and a third of their pilots are constantly in training. I donít see PDT being given any of the 140ís as they canít crew what they have, and PSA doesnít operate the type, so that just doesnít make sense.

BigZ
10-01-2018, 06:50 AM
So it seems that 175 / 145 is what is most junior and what most people are getting anyway? It'd just be some time until you may get to bid to DFW?

That is pretty ridiculous that they wouldn't tell you what Base / Equipment you get awarded before you start training and you can't bid to a different base/equipment. I'm also willing to bet that they won't give you an option to hold a class date until you get the equipment you want? Say if I tell them I only want the 175 and I'll hold out from starting training until they have an opening in a 175 class?

Can you bid a different Base / Equipment when you are a Captain?

On your first day in class there will be a list of what is available.
You and your classmates get to pick, one by one, according to the class seniority. The more senior you are in your class (cadet by longevity, then prior 121 by flight time, then everyone else by age), the higher the chance of picking what you want. If you are in the third group and in your early 20s, you get what's left over.
Lets say it's a 145 LGA. You can start bidding to a different base pretty much on the next vacancy bid. That, however, doesn't mean that your seniority can hold that base right away, it might take some time (vacancy bids are ran once a quarter). Once you are awarded a different base, it takes a couple of month to transfer. As an FO you cannot move from 145 to 175. Once you get to captain mins, you can upgrade on whatever equipment/base your seniority can hold - i.e. 145 FO can potentially upgrade on 175.
Big nope on holding the class date till the equipment you want is offered.
Captain - yes, you can bid different base (that you can always do), and equipment.

pitchattitude
10-01-2018, 07:15 AM
So it seems that 175 / 145 is what is most junior and what most people are getting anyway? It'd just be some time until you may get to bid to DFW?

That is pretty ridiculous that they wouldn't tell you what Base / Equipment you get awarded before you start training and you can't bid to a different base/equipment. I'm also willing to bet that they won't give you an option to hold a class date until you get the equipment you want? Say if I tell them I only want the 175 and I'll hold out from starting training until they have an opening in a 175 class?

Can you bid a different Base / Equipment when you are a Captain?
Envoy does not guarantee equipment or base prior to training and due to the dynamics of each class and seniority, there is no way of knowing when you would be able to get a specific base/aircraft. You can tell them you want to wait, but it will be an infinitely long wait.

If you are a DEC, or close to DEC, that changes the dynamics for you. Even if you came in as a FO, as soon as you reach mins for upgrade you will be forced to do so, IN THE AIRCRAFT AND BASE YOU HAVE SENIORITY FOR. As a junior guy, that will not be anything in DFW. DFW is NOT junior, it is senior. The ability to get DFW in the 175 is based on being SENIOR in a class that offers it. It will not be an option for a DEC.

Amansworld
10-02-2018, 04:38 AM
Do yourself a favor- if you have 121 time elsewhere my advice is to not come to Envoy as a DEC. They will straight abuse you. This company is a hostile company at best. So many more options and opportunities. I know many guys here this are DEC and are looking for ways to legally not pay the contract and leave. Hell some are paying the contract out and leaving just because the way they are treated.
Bottom line it is a very hostile company.

CaseTractor
10-02-2018, 08:26 AM
Do yourself a favor- if you have 121 time elsewhere my advice is to not come to Envoy as a DEC. They will straight abuse you. This company is a hostile company at best. So many more options and opportunities. I know many guys here this are DEC and are looking for ways to legally not pay the contract and leave. Hell some are paying the contract out and leaving just because the way they are treated.
Bottom line it is a very hostile company.

Not to agree or disagree, but in your experience what are some examples to demonstrate this statement? More details would be helpful for others to decide what may be best or not best for them. What does ďhostileĒ mean, more so than any other company?

2992set
10-02-2018, 03:11 PM
Search jetnet for Robert Isomís video on 5/8 where he outlines the WO fleet. Envoy will be a 200 plane fleet, PSA 150 planes, and PDT will be about 60. PDT is almost to 60 and they canít manage what they have and a third of their pilots are constantly in training. I donít see PDT being given any of the 140ís as they canít crew what they have, and PSA doesnít operate the type, so that just doesnít make sense.

is there anyway to get access to this video if you don't have access to jetnet?

Oregon Trail
10-02-2018, 03:45 PM
Do yourself a favor- if you have 121 time elsewhere my advice is to not come to Envoy as a DEC. They will straight abuse you. This company is a hostile company at best. So many more options and opportunities. I know many guys here this are DEC and are looking for ways to legally not pay the contract and leave. Hell some are paying the contract out and leaving just because the way they are treated.
Bottom line it is a very hostile company.

I suppose I should have mentioned that all my turbine pic is 135. I have no 121 experience.

MD-11Loader
10-02-2018, 03:58 PM
is there anyway to get access to this video if you don't have access to jetnet?

Nope. I donít know if PSA and PDT put it on their company page, but itís on ours. He laid out the fleet plans for the wholly owned carriers and said that they want three regional partners of size. Using the power of logic that would indicate Republic, Mesa, and Skywest. Compass flying 20 airplanes for AAG apparently doesnít make them ďof sizeĒ which gets people fired up over the lunacy of us taking them back (which would be bad).

2992set
10-02-2018, 04:02 PM
Nope. I donít know if PSA and PDT put it on their company page, but itís on ours. He laid out the fleet plans for the wholly owned carriers and said that they want three regional partners of size. Using the power of logic that would indicate Republic, Mesa, and Skywest. Compass flying 20 airplanes for AAG apparently doesnít make them ďof sizeĒ which gets people fired up over the lunacy of us taking them back (which would be bad).

man..i feel like I'm killing myself reading these forums - i have about 1300 121 time. currently not flying because of a medical issue I'm hoping to resolve soon and starting to look at the WOs merely for the flow in my back pocket..every WO's forum says "this company sucks don't come here" - but if i want the flow, who is the best? I should probably just put down my computer and get back to studying

havick206
10-02-2018, 04:24 PM
man..i feel like I'm killing myself reading these forums - i have about 1300 121 time. currently not flying because of a medical issue I'm hoping to resolve soon and starting to look at the WOs merely for the flow in my back pocket..every WO's forum says "this company sucks don't come here" - but if i want the flow, who is the best? I should probably just put down my computer and get back to studying

Thereís proís and cons to each. But the general gist is that goto the one that has the junior CA base that you can drive to or has the best commute.

Either way your going to spend considerable time on reserve in the most junior base at any company as a street hire CA. Any failings across the contracts at all WOís are likely to change by the time you start having the opportunity to exercise the positive parts of the contract.

Hope this helps.

MD-11Loader
10-02-2018, 04:26 PM
man..i feel like I'm killing myself reading these forums - i have about 1300 121 time. currently not flying because of a medical issue I'm hoping to resolve soon and starting to look at the WOs merely for the flow in my back pocket..every WO's forum says "this company sucks don't come here" - but if i want the flow, who is the best? I should probably just put down my computer and get back to studying

At this point youíve missed the ďquick flowĒ at all of them. Youíre looking at around 8 years before your number gets called. Pick the one which lets you live in base of have the easiest commute. PDT has the lowest pay, PSA will sell out for anything, and Envoy reserve is like purgatory. Pick your poison.

Camus
10-02-2018, 07:19 PM
Iím a DEC on the line now. All the paperwork I got said FO. Donít worry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can you get DEC in the 175?
How long till you get the 175 in MIA?

pitchattitude
10-02-2018, 07:39 PM
Can you get DEC in the 175?
How long till you get the 175 in MIA?
No and unknown, but not likely soon.

Bruno82
10-02-2018, 07:40 PM
Can you get DEC in the 175?

How long till you get the 175 in MIA?


DEC on the 175 is ultra unlikely.

Envoy does not have a 175 MIA base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Amansworld
10-03-2018, 03:55 AM
Not to agree or disagree, but in your experience what are some examples to demonstrate this statement? More details would be helpful for others to decide what may be best or not best for them. What does ďhostileĒ mean, more so than any other company?

I have been in the 121 world since late 90ís. I was recently told to call the chief pilot when I called in sick for the death of a family member. Btw, only time I ever called in sick. CP was a douche and basically made me choose between job and family. No choice to be made. It is family every time.

Cyio
10-03-2018, 01:45 PM
I have been in the 121 world since late 90ís. I was recently told to call the chief pilot when I called in sick for the death of a family member. Btw, only time I ever called in sick. CP was a douche and basically made me choose between job and family. No choice to be made. It is family every time.
Sad as it may be, the contract only covers you for immediate family. Even then, should your child die you get a whole three days before you are due back on the line.

NoValueAviator
10-03-2018, 05:46 PM
The management in this company is terrifyingly ruthless. Wouldn't want to be alone in a room with any of them. I get that every mean thing they do to us is one more thing they can pawn to get something from the union, but still. Just abject savagery.

Amansworld
10-03-2018, 08:34 PM
The management in this company is terrifyingly ruthless. Wouldn't want to be alone in a room with any of them. I get that every mean thing they do to us is one more thing they can pawn to get something from the union, but still. Just abject savagery.

One day on of them will take an ass whipping.

Tankerds
10-07-2018, 11:09 PM
I have been in the 121 world since late 90ís. I was recently told to call the chief pilot when I called in sick for the death of a family member. Btw, only time I ever called in sick. CP was a douche and basically made me choose between job and family. No choice to be made. It is family every time.

Wow, this sounds eerily similar to the horror stories I heard about the old American Eagle days.

Bruno82
10-08-2018, 02:50 AM
Wow, this sounds eerily similar to the horror stories I heard about the old American Eagle days.


Never had trouble at the old American Eagle. I was on a trip when my wifeís grandmother passed away. The CP said, ďGo home. Let me know if you need anything.Ē


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SilentLurker
10-08-2018, 06:28 PM
Never had trouble at the old American Eagle. I was on a trip when my wifeís grandmother passed away. The CP said, ďGo home. Let me know if you need anything.Ē


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is more common today, than back in the days. I will admit they do not work with you in situations like that these days.

SilentLurker
10-08-2018, 09:37 PM
This is more common today, than back in the days. I will admit they do not work with you in situations like that these days.


Edit for correction:

They do work with you in situations like that.

Pedro4President
10-09-2018, 02:45 AM
I have been in the 121 world since late 90ís. I was recently told to call the chief pilot when I called in sick for the death of a family member. Btw, only time I ever called in sick. CP was a douche and basically made me choose between job and family. No choice to be made. It is family every time.

You don't call in sick for a funeral. You call the CPO and request the time off there. If it starts to go south over the phone simply say I'm not going to be there on these days you can code it how you like.

lear60man
10-24-2018, 12:27 PM
Confused about the DEC hour requirement. If a guy has say 4,000 Jet PIC 135 does that count or does the time have to be 121?

Asking for a friend hahah

DreadWing
10-24-2018, 12:42 PM
Confused about the DEC hour requirement. If a guy has say 4,000 Jet PIC 135 does that count or does the time have to be 121?

Asking for a friend hahah

They counted my several thousand hours jet PIC for displacement purposes.

lear60man
10-24-2018, 02:17 PM
They counted my several thousand hours jet PIC for displacement purposes.

Sorry.....Im a corporate guy. What does 'Displacement Purposes' mean. Im trying to learn the lingo.

Thanks in advance.

DreadWing
10-24-2018, 03:35 PM
Sorry.....Im a corporate guy. What does 'Displacement Purposes' mean. Im trying to learn the lingo.

Thanks in advance.

No worries. The airline began to involuntarily upgrade F/Os ("displaced") when captain staffing levels became critical some time ago. This coincides with the moment they started allowing the hiring of DECs.

When it looked like I could hold my preferred base as captain (plus it was time to start making cash), I "proffered to displace" to captain, which is a formal request that my seniority allow me to be displaced to captain before those junior to me, since these displacements occur starting from the bottom of the seniority list and work their way up.

I did this, rather than voluntarily bidding for captain, because I could take advantage of the benefits that come with displacement (i.e. no 24-month "training freeze" commitment to the equipment I was displaced into).

I had a fifteen years of 135/91 corporate in my former life.

Venkman
10-24-2018, 03:36 PM
Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this:

There's a section on their DEC recruitment page that says you can be eligible for "up to" $45k bonus with 500 PIC 135 time or 500 121. I am considering pursuing a start in 121, and while I've got <1000 135 time, I do have >500 135 PIC time. It sounds like I would of course go in as an FO and upgrade when I got the rest of the time to make up 1000 hours, correct? Yet take the $45k DEC bonus. Any other catches to be aware of here? (Aside from all the commuting and LGA CA displacement. I understand that.)

Oregon Trail
10-24-2018, 05:00 PM
Sorry.....Im a corporate guy. What does 'Displacement Purposes' mean. Im trying to learn the lingo.

Thanks in advance.

Yes 135 PIC time counts. PIC only though not SIC

Oregon Trail
10-24-2018, 05:04 PM
Wondering if anyone can shed some light on this:

There's a section on their DEC recruitment page that says you can be eligible for "up to" $45k bonus with 500 PIC 135 time or 500 121. I am considering pursuing a start in 121, and while I've got <1000 135 time, I do have >500 135 PIC time. It sounds like I would of course go in as an FO and upgrade when I got the rest of the time to make up 1000 hours, correct? Yet take the $45k DEC bonus. Any other catches to be aware of here? (Aside from all the commuting and LGA CA displacement. I understand that.)

2 year commitment pro rated, not sure how to get up to $45k but I was offered $37k

Venkman
10-24-2018, 05:25 PM
2 year commitment pro rated, not sure how to get up to $45k but I was offered $37k

Cool thank you. Do they offer this or you have to bring it up? I assume I would apply via airlineapps and not their DEC portal, yes?

dera
10-24-2018, 05:56 PM
Yes 135 PIC time counts. PIC only though not SIC

Not all 135 PIC time is eligible.

highfarfast
10-24-2018, 06:30 PM
Yes 135 PIC time counts. PIC only though not SIC

Not all 135 PIC time is eligible.

This last sentence is as important as it is true! Donít assume all 135 PIC is the same. This is all relevant to what counts towards 121 captain eligibility. If you look that up, youíll find that it more or less covers flight time where an ATP cert is required. If you have 135 PIC but no ATP, you prob have zero that counts. If you already have an ATP, you prob need to dwell in the meaning of those regs to figure out what counts and what doesnít.

lear60man
10-24-2018, 06:37 PM
Thanks gang. Im way over the Jet PIC mins hahaha. Thinking about a different way of life and cashing out of California. Buy a house on the West Coast of Fl and commute to Miami or Orlando and fish.....a lot.

havick206
10-24-2018, 07:22 PM
Thanks gang. Im way over the Jet PIC mins hahaha. Thinking about a different way of life and cashing out of California. Buy a house on the West Coast of Fl and commute to Miami or Orlando and fish.....a lot.

Just so you know, you wonít be able to hold MIA as a captain for some time. On the last bid a DEC got bumped out of MIA by more senior pilots upgrading.

Oregon Trail
10-25-2018, 04:22 AM
Cool thank you. Do they offer this or you have to bring it up? I assume I would apply via airlineapps and not their DEC portal, yes?

I did both, there is a 121.436 qualification sheet that you fill out pre interview to qualify for it. they review your logbooks there as well.

I did not get a $ amount for the bonus until after I was assigned my class date about 2 weeks after interview. No information about how the amount was determined. My best guess is not full 45 because I don't have type/experience in fleet.

Venkman
10-25-2018, 07:33 AM
I did both, there is a 121.436 qualification sheet that you fill out pre interview to qualify for it. they review your logbooks there as well.

I did not get a $ amount for the bonus until after I was assigned my class date about 2 weeks after interview. No information about how the amount was determined. My best guess is not full 45 because I don't have type/experience in fleet.

Interesting. Thank you.

Folove
10-25-2018, 11:38 AM
Thanks gang. Im way over the Jet PIC mins hahaha. Thinking about a different way of life and cashing out of California. Buy a house on the West Coast of Fl and commute to Miami or Orlando and fish.....a lot.

Are you currently employed?

FlyGuy2112
10-25-2018, 01:23 PM
Just so you know, you wonít be able to hold MIA as a captain for some time. On the last bid a DEC got bumped out of MIA by more senior pilots upgrading.

Most junior MIA CA has been with the company 10 months. Thatís not too bad.

havick206
10-25-2018, 05:22 PM
Most junior MIA CA has been with the company 10 months. Thatís not too bad.

Until more 2016/2017 hires upgrade and displace junior guys out. How many, time will tell. Might just be a few.

lear60man
10-25-2018, 05:38 PM
Are you currently employed?

Yes. Just contemplating a different type of flying, set schedule...set time off.

DreadWing
10-25-2018, 07:01 PM
Yes. Just contemplating a different type of flying, set schedule...set time off.

That's the biggest advantage I found working here. I never knew what a "(real) schedule" was in my former life.

The flying is EXCEPTIONALLY straight-forward and easy. No filing, no receipts to keep up with, no arranging for after-hours FBO call-outs, no rental cars, no veiled threats about carrying write-ups, NO BULL****.

Folove
10-25-2018, 07:37 PM
Yes. Just contemplating a different type of flying, set schedule...set time off.



Be careful man you may already know but itís going to be a long, long time before you will have a line here and get a good QOL. However, that can change if reserve rules improve and we get some sort of long call for DECs. My guess is that if it ever happens it will go to the senior guys on rsv. Again screwing over the DECs.

Right now itís endless rsv and minimum days off a month is 11. Which turns into 8-9 if you commute. Some days I wanna quit others Iím happy Iím employeed. This can all change if you live in base.

Good luck

dera
10-25-2018, 07:43 PM
Be careful man you may already know but itís going to be a long, long time before you will have a line here and get a good QOL. However, that can change if reserve rules improve and we get some sort of long call for DECs. My guess is that if it ever happens it will go to the senior guys on rsv. Again screwing over the DECs.

Right now itís endless rsv and minimum days off a month is 11. Which turns into 8-9 if you commute. Some days I wanna quit others Iím happy Iím employeed. This can all change if you live in base.

Good luck

Endless? Oh come on, it's about a year?

Folove
10-25-2018, 07:45 PM
Endless? Oh come on, it's about a year?



Thereís DECs who have been here a year and still on rsv with no end in sight. In my opinion it will be 2-3 years of rsv. Anything less than that and youíre not thinking straight

Bruno82
10-25-2018, 07:55 PM
I donít see any way a DEC hired now on the 145 will get off of rsv in under a year and a half.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dera
10-25-2018, 07:59 PM
I donít see any way a DEC hired now on the 145 will get off of rsv in under a year and a half.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. No big deal.
I'm not a DEC candidate, but you guys need to have some perspective. A year and a half is nothing. Nada. Zilch.

lear60man
10-25-2018, 08:20 PM
Thanks guys, lots of good insider info to contemplate. DEC's sound like they get the brunt of the trips.....away from a warm domicile.

Cyio
10-26-2018, 03:11 AM
Thanks guys, lots of good insider info to contemplate. DEC's sound like they get the brunt of the trips.....away from a warm domicile.

DECs have pros and cons. Pro, they are sitting left seat with a flow now and have a large sign on bonus. Cons, they are sitting left seat with FO's that are more senior to them, perhaps perpetually knocking them down the list.

You have to keep in mind that every FO hired before you got here is a potential issue. If you are OK with that and the money makes it worth it, do it. If you live in base you are golden.

As for time on rev, I would put it 1.5-2 years, as that is the average upgrade time for FO's that were hired in the late 2016 early 2017 hiring spree. Once they are out of your way you can start to get off RSV, however you may not want to if you live in base.

SilentLurker
10-26-2018, 03:37 AM
Yep. No big deal.

I'm not a DEC candidate, but you guys need to have some perspective. A year and a half is nothing. Nada. Zilch.



Incentives such as unlimited commuter hotels in NYC helped staffing levels tremendously. But If your a DEC and on live in base Rsv for 1.5yrs can be a walk in the park,. Now we all know majority of crews choose to commute to certain bases due to high costs of living, rent/housing prices, and taxes. So Rsv life is something heavy to many because of our industry lagging rules.

CaptJackSparrow
10-26-2018, 01:14 PM
Again screwing over the DECs.


Those guys got $45K and the rest of the pilot group got nothing. Many of us didnít even get the $20K as an FO. Trust me they didnít get screwed out of anything.

Folove
10-26-2018, 03:11 PM
Those guys got $45K and the rest of the pilot group got nothing. Many of us didnít even get the $20K as an FO. Trust me they didnít get screwed out of anything.



Itís all timing. You may not get money but you get to hold a line,good QOL and build time to get out and go somewhere else.

havick206
10-26-2018, 06:04 PM
Itís all timing. You may not get money but you get to hold a line,good QOL and build time to get out and go somewhere else.

No one is holding a gun to anyoneís head to come here.

Amansworld
10-27-2018, 05:35 AM
Worst schedule and airline ever. Period.

Captain Kirk
10-27-2018, 06:02 AM
I respectfully disagree.
I live in base, have a line and schedules have been fine.
Having said that, if the NY lines decrease as per Ricís email well...

flysooner9
10-27-2018, 10:46 AM
Worst schedule and airline ever. Period.

Says everyone at every regional

Excargodog
10-27-2018, 11:02 AM
So how much actual flying would a newbie DEC on reserve actually get? And what are the junior bases?

Bruno82
10-27-2018, 01:07 PM
So how much actual flying would a newbie DEC on reserve actually get? And what are the junior bases?



Iím on my first full month of reserve. Iíve flown 33 hours in October and have 3 more days of reserve left.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Skip0927
10-27-2018, 08:14 PM
So how much actual flying would a newbie DEC on reserve actually get? And what are the junior bases?

Ive flown 14 hours all of october. But Iíve been called to sit standby a few times as well. Whatís standby you ask? It is this amazing thing where you sit in our asbetos riddled crew room in LGA for 8 hrs a day awaiting schedulings call to go do a YUL turn. There is virtually no limit to how often you can be assigned this, there is no pay override and standby is assigned in reverse seniority order everyday. You WILL be assigned this often! There are 8 standby shifts per day in NYC.

Unless you are coming here to check the 121 PIC box and move on in 6 months, there is nothing in the works that says this is a good place to be going forward for the long term.

Plan to sit more than fly....

DilsonWic
10-28-2018, 09:12 AM
If DECs didnít learn their lesson about seniority in the last 1,000 121 hours, well.....

You wonít get my sympathy or anyone elseís.

Bruno82
10-28-2018, 09:54 AM
As a DEC, Iíll post my outlook on it.

In summary, if I had it to do over, I would do the same thing.

Itís a pretty good opportunity. The bonus is good and itís a good opportunity to get Part 121 Turbine PIC. If you live in base or can move there itís even better. I talked with my wife about moving to base, but we have a great support system where we live while Iím away, so we decided to deal with commuting on reserve.

It is tough, though. Commuting on reserve is not a lot of fun. The minimum days off for reserve is 11 and if you commute, you can plan to commute to base in on three or four of those days.

At the moment Iím not getting as many hours as I thought I would. I have 33 for October and only a couple of more days left this month. Iím stuck at the spot in the list where Iím too junior to get trips I proffer for and too senior to get assigned trips. Hopefully flying will pick up.

I canít see being on reserve any less than the next year and a half or so. Weíre just not hiring that many DECs and many of the ones weíve hired are going to the CRJ.

My family and I knew it would be tough for a while going into this, but it doesnít make it any less tough. Just know what youíre getting into. Youíll be perpetually junior until the FOs hired below you are eligible for
upgrade.

Ive only been here for a few months, but I feel like Iíve been treated fairly so far. In training I saw someone have trouble in each phase but they worked and made it to the line. Scheduling has also been pretty fair and has tried to help me to the best of their ability. Crews Iíve flown with so far have been great to work with as well.

In short, if you choose to come here, just realize the schedule is tough, especially if you are a commuter. Itís a good opportunity, just have a frank discussion with your family and self to see what is right for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mambiche
11-08-2018, 07:42 AM
I understand that almost all DEC are going to CRJ in ORD. Are the lines better and how long on reserve? Been the only base for the CRJ are the situation the same as the EMB145? Thanks in advance.

Tellheritwasntu
11-08-2018, 08:02 AM
I understand that almost all DEC are going to CRJ in ORD. Are the lines better and how long on reserve? Been the only base for the CRJ are the situation the same as the EMB145? Thanks in advance.

If you get the crj as a direct entry captain I would expect reserve duty until the fleet is gone which is until early 2020 at this time. However, you might get the 145. Either way I would expect reserve of at least a year possibly/likely longer (but who knows for sure).

Mambiche
11-08-2018, 08:52 AM
If you get the crj as a direct entry captain I would expect reserve duty until the fleet is gone which is until early 2020 at this time. However, you might get the 145. Either way I would expect reserve of at least a year possibly/likely longer (but who knows for sure).

thanks for the quick reply!!!!

Skip0927
11-08-2018, 04:39 PM
My source in recruiting says only 10-15 more DEC and the pipeline will be shut off. If you do not have any understanding of ENVOY RSV, know that you will sit airport standby as a captain for the next 3 years if you are hired now....

Voski
11-08-2018, 05:31 PM
My source in recruiting says only 10-15 more DEC and the pipeline will be shut off. If you do not have any understanding of ENVOY RSV, know that you will sit airport standby as a captain for the next 3 years if you are hired now....

It adds up. The mass of FOs they hired between 2016-2017 are gearing up to upgrade soon and the company is going to need more FOs.

havick206
11-08-2018, 07:12 PM
It adds up. The mass of FOs they hired between 2016-2017 are gearing up to upgrade soon and the company is going to need more FOs.

Gearing up? Theyíre already on the line or currently in upgrade training.

Food for thought for DECís

Pedro4President
11-09-2018, 01:49 PM
I understand that almost all DEC are going to CRJ in ORD. Are the lines better and how long on reserve? Been the only base for the CRJ are the situation the same as the EMB145? Thanks in advance.

Hey I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no matter what equipment you are on you will be on reserve for years. When it comes to DEC guys you missed the boat on the chance to hold a line. I'm going to guess three or four years before you can hold a line on any equipment.

Reason- we are about to start having a massive amount of pilots hit 1000 hours over the next 6 - 18 months. I don't see them continuing to hire DEC very much longer.

CaptJackSparrow
11-09-2018, 01:56 PM
Hey I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no matter what equipment you are on you will be on reserve for years. When it comes to DEC guys you missed the boat on the chance to hold a line. I'm going to guess three or four years before you can hold a line on any equipment.

Reason- we are about to start having a massive amount of pilots hit 1000 hours over the next 6 - 18 months. I don't see them continuing to hire DEC very much longer.

Hence why that LOA is up in Feb. They know theyíll have plenty of guys to upgrade by then.

salmiaboy
11-19-2018, 08:53 AM
Been here 1 year, I may leave January for another gig, will the company enforce the repayment of the Bonus?

FlyGuy2112
11-19-2018, 12:36 PM
Been here 1 year, I may leave January for another gig, will the company enforce the repayment of the Bonus?

Absolutely, if you can wait until itís been a full year off IOE or youíll owe it all back. Itís not based of DOH.

Folove
11-19-2018, 02:03 PM
Absolutely, if you can wait until itís been a full year off IOE or youíll owe it all back. Itís not based of DOH.


False. Itís DOH

FlyGuy2112
11-19-2018, 02:15 PM
False. Itís DOH

No itís not. Read the agreement, paragraph 3 and 4. Clearly states after IOE.

pitchattitude
11-19-2018, 04:17 PM
I donít know what OTHERíS contracts say, but mine from 2017 is DOH.

Skip0927
11-23-2018, 12:54 PM
I donít know what OTHERíS contracts say, but mine from 2017 is DOH.

Mine is DOH....

Skip0927
11-23-2018, 12:55 PM
Mine also says I have to stay employeed as a First Officer for 24 months. Since the company displaced me to the left seat at its discretion, does this void my contract? Food for thought...

Pedro4President
11-23-2018, 01:21 PM
Mine also says I have to stay employeed as a First Officer for 24 months. Since the company displaced me to the left seat at its discretion, does this void my contract? Food for thought...

Yep!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely.

NoValueAviator
11-23-2018, 03:59 PM
mine also says i have to stay employeed as a first officer for 24 months. Since the company displaced me to the left seat at its discretion, does this void my contract? Food for thought...

drop the bomb

MD-11Loader
11-23-2018, 05:07 PM
Mine also says I have to stay employeed as a First Officer for 24 months. Since the company displaced me to the left seat at its discretion, does this void my contract? Food for thought...

[email protected]

You could possible set a precedent. Blaze that trail.

Skip0927
11-23-2018, 05:13 PM
[email protected]

You could possible set a precedent. Blaze that trail.

Gladly. Iím on my way out the door and would love to pay it forward to my ENY DEC HVA broís in the struggle.

pitchattitude
11-23-2018, 05:40 PM
Gladly. Iím on my way out the door and would love to pay it forward to my ENY DEC HVA broís in the struggle.
Since I havenít read one, I canít say for sure, but Iím pretty sure the DECs contract reads differently from the rest of us hired as FOs and displaced to the left seat.

But by all means, certainly something to look into.

Folove
11-23-2018, 06:18 PM
Gladly. Iím on my way out the door and would love to pay it forward to my ENY DEC HVA broís in the struggle.



Check your PMs.

Skip0927
11-23-2018, 07:36 PM
Check your PMs.

Nothing???

EmbaeDriver
11-24-2018, 07:44 AM
It adds up. The mass of FOs they hired between 2016-2017 are gearing up to upgrade soon and the company is going to need more FOs.

I know people hired between those years with only 200hrs. Reserve killing them.

Folove
11-24-2018, 04:03 PM
Nothing???


Check now

Filler

E6BAV8R
11-26-2018, 11:36 AM
So what is the current situation for people getting hired that already meet Captain minimums? Do you go through training as an FO and then immediately get forced into Captain upgrade on completion of FO training? Which aircraft and base would you expect at the moment?

Anyone mind describing that process, and how the bidding for equipment in training goes?

Thanks

NoValueAviator
11-27-2018, 06:15 AM
So what is the current situation for people getting hired that already meet Captain minimums? Do you go through training as an FO and then immediately get forced into Captain upgrade on completion of FO training? Which aircraft and base would you expect at the moment?

Anyone mind describing that process, and how the bidding for equipment in training goes?

Thanks

No training as an FO, you will get displaced immediately into CA status during indoc. You will likely get either CRJ ORD or 145 ORD, 145 NYC is a possibility.

You can bid for whatever you want in training but your choice is irrelevant to you, you will be displaced based on company needs. You can still take away an available 175 slot if you want, lol.

E6BAV8R
11-29-2018, 05:30 AM
You can still take away an available 175 slot if you want, lol.

Sorry but what does that mean?

NoValueAviator
11-29-2018, 05:38 AM
Sorry but what does that mean?

If you select a 175 DFW/ORD slot in class, you will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by one, but you will still wind up ORD CRJ/145 most likely.

dera
11-29-2018, 06:22 AM
If you select a 175 DFW/ORD slot in class, you will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by one, but you will still wind up ORD CRJ/145 most likely.

Err? Not sure if other FOs can bid for OCC?

NoValueAviator
11-29-2018, 06:32 AM
Good point, I guess the real question is how are they doing it now?

Are the Captain statuses on the board? When I was hired, they were not.

E6BAV8R
11-29-2018, 09:24 AM
If you select a 175 DFW/ORD slot in class, you will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by one, but you will still wind up ORD CRJ/145 most likely.

I guess I am terribly misunderstanding something. You said "If I select 175 I will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by 1"... Well yes, that is the way seniority works.

What am I missing, and why would I end up going to the CRJ? I do understand CA CRJ is most junior, but I fail to understand what that has to do with the original question? Honestly, I only care about Envoy for the DFW base. I'm honestly only interested in my chance of getting DFW based, which the 175 seems best for. So, I guess, what are my chances of DEC being able to get awarded DEC as a new hire and also being able to hold DFW in that 175? Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm wondering if that is a possibility.

MD-11Loader
11-29-2018, 09:32 AM
I'm honestly only interested in my chance of getting DFW based, which the 175 seems best for. So, I guess, what are my chances of DEC being able to get awarded DEC as a new hire and also being able to hold DFW in that 175? Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm wondering if that is a possibility.

Zero. Absolutely zero. The junior 175 pilot is in ORD with 21 months of seniority. You wonít be able to hold DFW 175 until youíve been here around two years.

NoValueAviator
11-29-2018, 09:46 AM
When I was hired, people who had accepted the DEC bonus were allowed to bid for a new hire status based on class seniority, including FO seats, the NCE seats were only "offered."

DEC 175 DFW will not happen under any circumstances, that is the most senior seat in the company.

pitchattitude
11-29-2018, 11:35 AM
I guess I am terribly misunderstanding something. You said "If I select 175 I will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by 1"... Well yes, that is the way seniority works.

What am I missing, and why would I end up going to the CRJ? I do understand CA CRJ is most junior, but I fail to understand what that has to do with the original question? Honestly, I only care about Envoy for the DFW base. I'm honestly only interested in my chance of getting DFW based, which the 175 seems best for. So, I guess, what are my chances of DEC being able to get awarded DEC as a new hire and also being able to hold DFW in that 175? Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm wondering if that is a possibility.
The 175 seats are FO. If you qualify for a direct entry captain, your paperwork may read differently, but even if they ALLOW you to bid for the 175, as an FO, you will be displaced to Captain immediately, at the latest the next bid, which have been every three month, so before you finish training. As the most junior Captain in the company, you will be stuck with a CRJ, MAYBE a 145, in ORD because that is
all the most junior captain in the company can hold.

Cyio
11-29-2018, 02:43 PM
I guess I am terribly misunderstanding something. You said "If I select 175 I will reduce the 175 slots offered to the rest of the class by 1"... Well yes, that is the way seniority works.

What am I missing, and why would I end up going to the CRJ? I do understand CA CRJ is most junior, but I fail to understand what that has to do with the original question? Honestly, I only care about Envoy for the DFW base. I'm honestly only interested in my chance of getting DFW based, which the 175 seems best for. So, I guess, what are my chances of DEC being able to get awarded DEC as a new hire and also being able to hold DFW in that 175? Obviously there are no guarantees, but I'm wondering if that is a possibility.
Yeah holding Dallas, as others have said will take time. Itís our most senior base.

dera
11-29-2018, 07:25 PM
Zero. Absolutely zero. The junior 175 pilot is in ORD with 21 months of seniority. You wonít be able to hold DFW 175 until youíve been here around two years.

This is actually a pretty good situation for new hires.
Assuming you're a cadet/lucky with 0 qualifying 121/91k/135 time, and get DFL out of training. 21 months later you might upgrade straight to DCL.

NoValueAviator
11-29-2018, 08:41 PM
This is actually a pretty good situation for new hires.
Assuming you're a cadet/lucky with 0 qualifying 121/91k/135 time, and get DFL out of training. 21 months later you might upgrade straight to DCL.

Wouldn't count on getting the 175 on upgrade after being on it as an FO. With the huge night/day difference between the rates that FOs on the 175 vs. the obsolete fleets are getting hours now choice upgrade slots are likely to be more contested, especially uncertain for people on the normal ~18 mo. upgrade path. I'm 12 months behind with essentially no flying, and so is everyone else hired around the same time into the WSCOD. The situation seems even worse on the CRJ side but may actually balance out w/ more flying on rsv.

dera
11-29-2018, 08:50 PM
Wouldn't count on getting the 175 on upgrade after being on it as an FO. With the huge night/day difference between the rates that FOs on the 175 vs. the obsolete fleets are getting hours now choice upgrade slots are likely to be more contested, especially uncertain for people on the normal ~18 mo. upgrade path. I'm 12 months behind with essentially no flying, and so is everyone else hired around the same time into the WSCOD. The situation seems even worse on the CRJ side but may actually balance out w/ more flying on rsv.

Yeah, I was making the assumption that you couldn't fly 1000 hours in 21 months, even on the 175.

NoValueAviator
11-29-2018, 08:56 PM
It would be easy in ORD tbh

dera
11-29-2018, 09:27 PM
It would be easy in ORD tbh

Ok that's good info. How are the 175 lines in DFW?

Cyio
11-30-2018, 02:09 AM
Wouldn't count on getting the 175 on upgrade after being on it as an FO. With the huge night/day difference between the rates that FOs on the 175 vs. the obsolete fleets are getting hours now choice upgrade slots are likely to be more contested, especially uncertain for people on the normal ~18 mo. upgrade path. I'm 12 months behind with essentially no flying, and so is everyone else hired around the same time into the WSCOD. The situation seems even worse on the CRJ side but may actually balance out w/ more flying on rsv.

Yeah but if an FO is blasting out 1000 hours in 21 months, everything is going perfect for them and they are not too worried about what aircraft they upgrade on.

Heck, you can lose 3 weeks with your vacation bidding if done correctly, would assume people do get sick occasionally, that can be stretched. Upper seniority reserve barely flies you at all on it, so you can also leverage that as a boost.

If you really want the seat you can get to it, but I agree if you are right seat in ORD on it, you will be ready for upgrade before your seniority is unless you have some stalling tactics in place. Although, at least in ORD, you dont need much more than 21 months seniority to hold it.

Pedro4President
11-30-2018, 02:43 AM
Yeah but if an FO is blasting out 1000 hours in 21 months, everything is going perfect for them and they are not too worried about what aircraft they upgrade on.

Heck, you can lose 3 weeks with your vacation bidding if done correctly, would assume people do get sick occasionally, that can be stretched. Upper seniority reserve barely flies you at all on it, so you can also leverage that as a boost.

If you really want the seat you can get to it, but I agree if you are right seat in ORD on it, you will be ready for upgrade before your seniority is unless you have some stalling tactics in place. Although, at least in ORD, you dont need much more than 21 months seniority to hold it.

I have learned over the past few years that it's very hard to determine what people are going to do. We went from complaining about upgrades being too long to too short.

I would agree with you if our 175 fleet numbers were to stay the same. However with a growing fleet the scenario may change. Also, the CRJ is leaving which will cause another displacement eventually and shake up this situation even more (my guess is that this would not favor the fast to 1000 guys). The key is all about timing and seniority and the future is full of incalculable situations. My suggestion is just cross your fingers and hope for the best and make as much money as you can.

moon
11-30-2018, 04:56 AM
I have learned over the past few years that it's very hard to determine what people are going to do. We went from complaining about upgrades being too long to too short.

I would agree with you if our 175 fleet numbers were to stay the same. However with a growing fleet the scenario may change. Also, the CRJ is leaving which will cause another displacement eventually and shake up this situation even more (my guess is that this would not favor the fast to 1000 guys). The key is all about timing and seniority and the future is full of incalculable situations. My suggestion is just cross your fingers and hope for the best and make as much money as you can.

1350 people hired and still here over last 2 years. That's what spurred the quick movement. We'll see if that continues. The experience for new hires will be different now vs a year or 2 ago.

Pedro4President
11-30-2018, 10:08 AM
1350 people hired and still here over last 2 years. That's what spurred the quick movement. We'll see if that continues. The experience for new hires will be different now vs a year or 2 ago.

I think it will be better now vs a year ago but not as good as two years ago.

pitchattitude
11-30-2018, 11:05 AM
I think it will be better now vs a year ago but not as good as two years ago.
It still will depend on which aircraft and what you think ďbetterĒ is.

Pedro4President
12-01-2018, 05:03 AM
It still will depend on which aircraft and what you think ďbetterĒ is.

Rise in relative seniority is what I was referring to.

NoValueAviator
12-01-2018, 05:07 AM
I think the 175 side is positioned for even faster movement w/ the blistering pace of fleet growth. I doubt if the 145 situation gets much better. The CRJ op might finally get the mercy killing it so desperately needs.

copycopy
12-01-2018, 06:08 AM
When I was hired, people who had accepted the DEC bonus were allowed to bid for a new hire status based on class seniority, including FO seats, the NCE seats were only "offered."

DEC 175 DFW will not happen under any circumstances, that is the most senior seat in the company.

Thatís not how it works any more. They were previously doing it that way to try to find loopholes in the CBA, but following the Standing Vacancy LOA DEC pilots are immediately assigned/displaced into a status which has an open standing vacancy and do not bid for FO statuses.

NoValueAviator
12-01-2018, 04:19 PM
Thatís not how it works any more. They were previously doing it that way to try to find loopholes in the CBA, but following the Standing Vacancy LOA DEC pilots are immediately assigned/displaced into a status which has an open standing vacancy and do not bid for FO statuses.

Excelsior.

Oregon Trail
12-03-2018, 02:02 AM
I am DEC in training and attempted to put in 3P for MIA but it will only let me do it as an FO not CA. is there someone to contact about this?

Amansworld
12-03-2018, 10:06 AM
I am DEC in training and attempted to put in 3P for MIA but it will only let me do it as an FO not CA. is there someone to contact about this?


Congrats- they are seat locking DECs now.

moon
12-03-2018, 10:49 AM
I am DEC in training and attempted to put in 3P for MIA but it will only let me do it as an FO not CA. is there someone to contact about this?

Doesn't matter until there is a vacancy bid. However it should be 3p/MIA/CA/EMJ/D Make sure there is that D for Domestic.

Or there may be a restriction on bidding built into DECS, while in initial training. Once a vacancy is posted there is a mask you fill out and email to the person who runs the bids, but again you have to wait until there is vacancy.

Oregon Trail
12-03-2018, 01:46 PM
Doesn't matter until there is a vacancy bid. However it should be 3p/MIA/CA/EMJ/D Make sure there is that D for Domestic.

Or there may be a restriction on bidding built into DECS, while in initial training. Once a vacancy is posted there is a mask you fill out and email to the person who runs the bids, but again you have to wait until there is vacancy.

It gives me +Invalid Seat+ when I try to do that, FOs that are upgrading in my class are able to put in their base bids for 3D and 3P for CA slots. We were also told to put in out requests while in training and we could possibly get our request before finishing IOE.

Im not sure if Direct Entry Captains are seat locked but I am on the equipment I want & would like to be at Miami as soon as possible.

moon
12-03-2018, 04:23 PM
It gives me +Invalid Seat+ when I try to do that, FOs that are upgrading in my class are able to put in their base bids for 3D and 3P for CA slots. We were also told to put in out requests while in training and we could possibly get our request before finishing IOE.

Im not sure if Direct Entry Captains are seat locked but I am on the equipment I want & would like to be at Miami as soon as possible.

Even with a seat lock it should allow you to do it. You may be entering it in the wrong order. Either way you won't get awarded anything until a vacancy is announced. At that point I'd try again and if it doesn't work email a union rep.

FlyGuy2112
12-03-2018, 04:39 PM
Even with a seat lock it should allow you to do it. You may be entering it in the wrong order. Either way you won't get awarded anything until a vacancy is announced. At that point I'd try again and if it doesn't work email a union rep.

You canít do it until you are qualified on the equipment. If you are still in training when the next bid comes out email Phil Hebb for a paper bid sheet.

FlyGuy2112
12-03-2018, 04:51 PM
Even with a seat lock it should allow you to do it. You may be entering it in the wrong order. Either way you won't get awarded anything until a vacancy is announced. At that point I'd try again and if it doesn't work email a union rep.

You canít do it until you are qualified on the equipment. If you are still in training when the next bid comes out email Phil Hebb for a paper bid sheet.

Oregon Trail
12-03-2018, 08:51 PM
You canít do it until you are qualified on the equipment. If you are still in training when the next bid comes out email Phil Hebb for a paper bid sheet.

Perfect thank you!

Oregon Trail
12-04-2018, 04:26 PM
Doesn't matter until there is a vacancy bid. However it should be 3p/MIA/CA/EMJ/D Make sure there is that D for Domestic.

Or there may be a restriction on bidding built into DECS, while in initial training. Once a vacancy is posted there is a mask you fill out and email to the person who runs the bids, but again you have to wait until there is vacancy.

I figured it out, Direct Entry Captains do not exist in the world of DECS.
Direct entry CA cannot bid anything as a CA until rated on equipment. Paper bid is possible through correct channels and only if a bid is open prior to finishing training.

arkmm
12-05-2018, 03:27 AM
What would it take for a DEC to get to DFW now (even on reserve)? 12 months in the 145 in LGA or ORD? or in any aircraft?

Amansworld
12-05-2018, 04:03 AM
Coming here as a DEC is an extremely bad decision unless you live in your domicile. Envoy by far has the worst QOL I have ever seen and that includes when I worked at 135 gigs. They are straight abusive to DECS.

havick206
12-05-2018, 05:09 AM
Coming here as a DEC is an extremely bad decision unless you live in your domicile. Envoy by far has the worst QOL I have ever seen and that includes when I worked at 135 gigs. They are straight abusive to DECS.

Isnít that what the 45k bonus is for?

NoValueAviator
12-05-2018, 05:18 AM
Flew with a Feb 12 DEC holding a line on the 145 in Chicago the other day. He wonít necessarily hang on to that line if the pace of upgrades picks up, but this means that reserve is officially shorter for DECs than FOs on the 145.

You are probably still boned if you get the CRJ.

#overstaffed

arkmm
12-05-2018, 12:57 PM
Flew with a Feb 12 DEC holding a line on the 145 in Chicago the other day. He wonít necessarily hang on to that line if the pace of upgrades picks up, but this means that reserve is officially shorter for DECs than FOs on the 145.

You are probably still boned if you get the CRJ.

#overstaffed

ughhh. I mean I expected it to suck for a year no matter what. Thanks for your input guys I appreciate it.



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