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jupiter87140
09-26-2018, 03:34 PM
Hi All,

I've just started training for my private license. I have about 10 hours, including takeoffs, stalls, steep turns, etc. I have not yet done a landing, although we are working up to that.

I've had an issue over the last 10 years or so, where I have a slight tremor in my left hand, but it only shows up when I try to write anything left handed with a pen. It doesn't show up at any other time. In fact, while training, I am using my left hand controlling the yolk and other controls. There has been no issue, other than when doing handwriting.

I've always been left handed for eating and writing, while playing tennis and golfing with my right hand.

Anyway, this has never been an issue, because I pretty much have gone completely electronic and paperless in life. I type almost everything, and only have had to write once a month to write out a check.

But here is the problem...flight training, and working with flight schools, in terms of filling out Hobbs time, tach time, etc., in their books, has brought this problem back to the forefront for me. I don't understand why flight schools can't go completely electronic, and use keyboards, instead of archaically having to write out Hobbs times and tach times in their archaic handwritten notebooks.

In any event, despite my conducting takeoffs, flight maneuvers, stalls, steep turns, and working up to landing soon, my flight instructor believes that this small tremor in my left hand, which ONLY shows up when I'm doing handwriting, could be a problem, in terms of a designated examiner, and potentially could cause me to fail the private pilot checkride.

Do I need a new instructor, or is he correct, and should I hang it up now and not spend money and waste time pursuing the private license, with a problem that only shows up when I am trying to write with my left hand.

Or perhaps I should learn to write with my right hand, which has no minor tremor whatsoever?

I really look forward to your comments on this, and thank you for your attention to this matter!


dbdevkc
09-26-2018, 06:13 PM
I assume you have a medical. What did the Dr. say about it? Did you even ask him about it? Is it "essential tremors" or "familial tremors", or, is it the start of parkinson's? If it is just familial tremors, even if it is bad, if it doesn't affect your flying then you should be fine. Although, what happens when you need to copy down instructions from ATC?

JohnBurke
09-26-2018, 06:38 PM
Given that handwriting is a forgotten art and a lot of individuals have nearly indecipherable handwriting (and the inability to spell) these days, are you sure anyone would notice if you didn't bring it up?

It's really an issue for an AME, rather than a designated examiner.

With Parkinson's, a tremor is often only perceptible under certain conditions; one may be fully dexterous, yet have a repetitive tremor while making a motion to screw in a lightbulb, for example.

I wouldn't let your instructor or anyone else make a medical diagnosis. Leave that to a doctor. Keep in mind that the majority of flight instructors have no experience; they've never worked in aviation or done anything but instruct, and are brand new pilots themselves. With that in mind, they may be the last ones you want to turn to for information about the industry, or what is or is not acceptable.


badflaps
09-27-2018, 02:20 AM
There are people wandering around aviation that don't even have a left hand. - Just sayin'.:D

TiredSoul
09-27-2018, 02:31 AM
Your instructor is both right and wrong.
Yes It could be a problem but not with an examiner. Most applicants are so nervous they canít remenber their name let alone write it.
Point is there may or may not be an underlying medical problem that could potentially be disqualifying for a (first class) medical.
You doing this for giggles or as the start of a career?
Friendly word of caution here: the FAA doesnít take very kindly to ďomissionsĒ on a medical application. Unintentional or not.
Iím getting the feeling you didnít discuss this with your medical examiner.

rickair7777
09-27-2018, 06:38 AM
Sounds more like essential tremor than parkinson's, especially if you're young and it hasn't really changed in ten years. But better see a doc to be sure. Once you get the cause identified, then go see the AME.

The AME, not the CFI or DPE, will determine whether it's disqualifying. It sounds like it would not be a problem.

The DPE/CFI can't disqualify you because you have a tremor, they don't get to pass judgement on that. They have to evaluate you on your performance only, worst case they might ask you to see an AME, but if you've already done that, then no issue.

Note... if you have a previous history of medical care/diagnosis for this and did not report it to the FAA when you applied for medicals, contact a lawyer before you do anything else.

jupiter87140
09-27-2018, 08:34 AM
Thanks all for your replies!

I passed a first class medical in June before starting training. This issue did not come up because I have never been diagnosed with any neurological condition, and it ONLY shows up when I attempt to write with my left hand, never at anytime else, whether that be driving or in the cockpit. But it shows up when, at the end of the flight, we have to fill out a book with date, time, Hobbs time, tach time, instructor/student name, etc. I have had the instructor fill this out for me each time we are done flying because I wasn’t able to do it, and that was when he indicated this could be a problem with me getting my license.

I do handwriting at no other time than this. I’m normally on a keyboard all the time, as I’ve gone electronic and paperless in my life. Flying has brought this issue once again to the forefront, as it only happens when writing.

There is no shaking in my right hand, so I’m trying to teach myself how to write with my right hand. Perhaps I should have addressed this issue before, but there has simply never been any reason to because I have been 100 percent keyboard communicating.

It’s just really hard to believe that an issue that ONLY shows up when writing could derail me from flying.

Am I doing this for career? Not sure. I’d like to get the private license, see how that goes, and go from there.

With this additional information, I’d like to hear more of your thoughts.

Thanks!

rickair7777
09-27-2018, 08:50 AM
Thanks all for your replies!

I passed a first class medical in June before starting training. This issue did not come up because I have never been diagnosed with any neurological condition, and it ONLY shows up when I attempt to write with my left hand, never at anytime else, whether that be driving or in the cockpit. But it shows up when, at the end of the flight, we have to fill out a book with date, time, Hobbs time, tach time, instructor/student name, etc. I have had the instructor fill this out for me each time we are done flying because I wasnít able to do it, and that was when he indicated this could be a problem with me getting my license.

I do handwriting at no other time than this. Iím normally on a keyboard all the time, as Iíve gone electronic and paperless in my life. Flying has brought this issue once again to the forefront, as it only happens when writing.

There is no shaking in my right hand, so Iím trying to teach myself how to write with my right hand. Perhaps I should have addressed this issue before, but there has simply never been any reason to because I have been 100 percent keyboard communicating.

Itís just really hard to believe that an issue that ONLY shows up when writing could derail me from flying.

Am I doing this for career? Not sure. Iíd like to get the private license, see how that goes, and go from there.

With this additional information, Iíd like to hear more of your thoughts.

Thanks!

If it's just an isolated tremor, it won't derail you. You can even fly with parkinsons but I really don't think that's it.

The FAA medical form doesn't just ask "have you ever been diagnosed" it asks "have you ever had, or do you have". So technically you should report it, although they would have no way of knowing. But you should go see a regular doc first so you can tell the AME what the problem is.

But now that your CFI knows and is concerned, I think you need to get it checked out and report it to the AME... that will solve the issue with your CFI. Again I don't think this a big deal at all, but not reporting it could be a big deal.

jupiter87140
09-27-2018, 09:18 AM
Understood and thanks. But in order to answer yes to ďneurological disordersĒ (just looked at the FAA questionnaire), wouldnít you have to be diagnosed with a disorder officially by your doctor? I have never been diagnosed with a neurological disorder by any doctor at anytime, in fact I have never brought this up with any of my doctors. So, it seems to me that when I answered ďnoĒ on the FAA medical questionnaire regarding neurological disorders that I was being as accurate as possible.

TiredSoul
09-27-2018, 09:42 AM
Youíre intentionally skating around it.
Youíre not understanding the legal implications of the medical application.
Knowing that you do and avoiding an official diagnosis doesnít make it go away.
And stop blaming the pen and paper.

ZippyNH
09-27-2018, 10:34 AM
Youíre intentionally skating around it.
Youíre not understanding the legal implications of the medical application.
Knowing that you do and avoiding an official diagnosis doesnít make it go away.
And stop blaming the pen and paper.

+1
You did know a pilot just got JAIL TIME for omission on a medical right?
Blaming it on pen and paper...wow.
Hate to see you program an FMS....
Get a diagnosis, then a clear to fly...
Or this skeleton will be a ticking time bomb... waiting to explode.
It MUST be dealt with, and doing it now gives you the BEST chance of not having bigger issues, be it LEGAL or $$$...

viper548
09-27-2018, 01:03 PM
You should probably go back to the doctor that gave you the first class medical and make sure this isn't a problem before you spend any more money on flying.
10 hours of flying and you haven't landed yet? That's a huge red flag. I'd be looking for a new instructor. I usually did the landing on the first lesson then had the student working on them on lesson 2 and beyond. I haven't instructed in over 10 years, so hopefully someone more up to date on recent training trends can chime in but this sounds unreasonable.
I can't speak to your specific condition but I've met two pilots that both had essentially no use of one hand. One was a CFI, the other an airline pilot. You need to get this addressed though. I'd start with AOPA aeromedical.

TiredSoul
09-27-2018, 05:12 PM
10 hrs is 6-7 lessons and maybe the conditions werenít right for him to land yet or maybe the basics arenít there.
I steered away from early landings and early soloís. Thereís no point.

But back to this case.
Iíve dealt with three students that had vision in only one eye, one student with only two fingers on one hand, one with Aspergers, one with MS.
They all got a medical and they all got their Private.
Stop complaining about the paperwork and get this sorted out.

If I were your instructor I would suggest to stop spending money till you have this sorted out. Why?
Because I care thatís why.

jupiter87140
09-28-2018, 07:25 AM
Thanks again all for your input on this.

I dispute any notion that I falsified anything on my medical questionnaire, and I believe any lawyer would agree with me. I have never brought this up with any doctor in the past, and have never been diagnosed with any "neurological disorder," and therefore it was appropriate to answer "no" to this on the FAA medical questionnaire. I could call up Oklahoma City today, and I'm sure they would tell me the exact same thing. If I had been diagnosed, and answered no, then I would have given a falsified answer on the questionnaire, and obviously be subject to the appropriate penalties. That is not the case here. I'm surprised that some here do not understand that. Very surprised.

My new instructor, the one who is concerned about my handwriting, was also surprised that I had not done a landing yet, and is aggressively pushing me in that direction. I've basically been flying the pattern, all the way up to final approach at about 300 ft AGL when he finishes the landing, with me closely following the controls. I believe on our next lesson he will have me do the landing, with him following closely on the controls. One thing we have where I live is a LOT of wind, especially very strong crosswinds and gusts, so many instructors take a bit longer to have their students introduced to the landing. Rather, they have the students follow them on the controls closely and gradually work them up to the landing.

In any event, I'm actually learning to write with my right hand, which has no issue whatsoever. It's not as difficult as I thought. Just write the alphabet out - upper and lower case - a few times a day, as well as numbers 1-10, and then start writing sentences and paragraphs. It's supposed to take about two months or so to do.

Perhaps I should take two or so months off of flight training until I am proficient with my right hand, so that I can use the archaic (back to the dinosaur days) handwriting to copy ATC instructions?

Also, I'm seeing my personal doctor today about the left hand issue. So, we shall see if I get a "diagnosis" finally, or whether he just thinks it is a minor issue. If I get a diagnosis then I will obviously have to disclose this at my next exam with the AME, which I would most certainly do.

I guess I have to state this one more time. This issue has no effect whatsoever on anything...anything...done in the cockpit, in terms of manipulating controls, switches, buttons, or anything else.

It only effects handwriting with my left hand. Not my right hand, and nothing else. It only effects the ability to fill out a book, using handwriting, with Hobbs time, tach time, etc. That's it!

I'm really, really surprised that aviation has not advanced to the point of being able to have a pilot enter this type of information using a keyboard, instead of using the archaic, (back to the Civil War days, back to the Revolutionary War days, back to the age of dinosaurs, back to the age of planet earth's formation) of having to hand write this info in. I think it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, airliners basically fly themselves these days, with airline pilots being more computer managers than stick and rudder people, (except for takeoff/landing/emergencies) but aviation still uses antiquated handwriting.

It seems pretty absurd to me, but oh well, that's the way it is.

I do appreciate all of your input, and the various points of view about this.

rickair7777
09-28-2018, 09:00 AM
Thanks again all for your input on this.

I dispute any notion that I falsified anything on my medical questionnaire, and I believe any lawyer would agree with me. I have never brought this up with any doctor in the past, and have never been diagnosed with any "neurological disorder," and therefore it was appropriate to answer "no" to this on the FAA medical questionnaire. I could call up Oklahoma City today, and I'm sure they would tell me the exact same thing. If I had been diagnosed, and answered no, then I would have given a falsified answer on the questionnaire, and obviously be subject to the appropriate penalties. That is not the case here. I'm surprised that some here do not understand that. Very surprised.


The form does not just ask if you were diagnosed, it asks "have you ever had". I'd talk to a lawyer before you admit that you were aware of a neurological issue in the past and did not report it.

You're right that it's probably weak legalese for a criminal conviction, I'm sure DOJ wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole.

But the FAA operates under admin law (not civil or criminal law) and has a MUCH lower standard of evidence. They can easily abd unilaterally revoke your medical and student cert over this. This is fact, with plenty of historical case history.

Excargodog
09-28-2018, 09:49 AM
Look, if you are getting a private pilot's license to fly for $h|ts and grins, this is a non-problem. But if you are starting down a career path, it's wise to get this taken care of before investing huge amounts of money. Having dealt with NUMEROUS AMEs, I can say with certainty that none of them would have been hypocritical enough to down someone for no more than crappy handwriting.

The only issue for the FAA is whether or not this is a PROGRESSIVE issue. If it's a static condition, it's no problem. And trust me, the answer to that question is even more important to you than it is to the FAA.

c402fr8er
09-28-2018, 10:19 AM
Thanks again all for your input on this.

I dispute any notion that I falsified anything on my medical questionnaire, and I believe any lawyer would agree with me. I have never brought this up with any doctor in the past, and have never been diagnosed with any "neurological disorder," and therefore it was appropriate to answer "no" to this on the FAA medical questionnaire. I could call up Oklahoma City today, and I'm sure they would tell me the exact same thing. If I had been diagnosed, and answered no, then I would have given a falsified answer on the questionnaire, and obviously be subject to the appropriate penalties. That is not the case here. I'm surprised that some here do not understand that. Very surprised.

My new instructor, the one who is concerned about my handwriting, was also surprised that I had not done a landing yet, and is aggressively pushing me in that direction. I've basically been flying the pattern, all the way up to final approach at about 300 ft AGL when he finishes the landing, with me closely following the controls. I believe on our next lesson he will have me do the landing, with him following closely on the controls. One thing we have where I live is a LOT of wind, especially very strong crosswinds and gusts, so many instructors take a bit longer to have their students introduced to the landing. Rather, they have the students follow them on the controls closely and gradually work them up to the landing.

In any event, I'm actually learning to write with my right hand, which has no issue whatsoever. It's not as difficult as I thought. Just write the alphabet out - upper and lower case - a few times a day, as well as numbers 1-10, and then start writing sentences and paragraphs. It's supposed to take about two months or so to do.

Perhaps I should take two or so months off of flight training until I am proficient with my right hand, so that I can use the archaic (back to the dinosaur days) handwriting to copy ATC instructions?

Also, I'm seeing my personal doctor today about the left hand issue. So, we shall see if I get a "diagnosis" finally, or whether he just thinks it is a minor issue. If I get a diagnosis then I will obviously have to disclose this at my next exam with the AME, which I would most certainly do.

I guess I have to state this one more time. This issue has no effect whatsoever on anything...anything...done in the cockpit, in terms of manipulating controls, switches, buttons, or anything else.

It only effects handwriting with my left hand. Not my right hand, and nothing else. It only effects the ability to fill out a book, using handwriting, with Hobbs time, tach time, etc. That's it!

I'm really, really surprised that aviation has not advanced to the point of being able to have a pilot enter this type of information using a keyboard, instead of using the archaic, (back to the Civil War days, back to the Revolutionary War days, back to the age of dinosaurs, back to the age of planet earth's formation) of having to hand write this info in. I think it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, airliners basically fly themselves these days, with airline pilots being more computer managers than stick and rudder people, (except for takeoff/landing/emergencies) but aviation still uses antiquated handwriting.

It seems pretty absurd to me, but oh well, that's the way it is.

I do appreciate all of your input, and the various points of view about this.

Glad with 10 hours and 6 lessons you are now an expert on this industry.


Sorry the industry is not advanced according to your desires. Get used to it if this is going to be your career. As you go forward you will be continually presented with cases where your employer will tell you "this is how we do it" and your job is to comply with SOP and procedure.


While a DPE may not notice your issue, it will come up further in your career, and the omission on your medical application WILL come back to haunt you. You don't want that sword of Damocles held over you for the rest of your career.

viper548
09-28-2018, 10:42 AM
Even on the Airbus at a major airline we still have to write. Occasionally we fly to an airport that does not have PDC and we have write the clearance out. We are also expected to write down complex taxi clearances. It's not going away anytime soon.
I would not call the FAA over this, I'd start with your flight Dr.

badflaps
09-28-2018, 12:06 PM
Well, the bright side, he is not trying to go to watch making school.

jupiter87140
09-28-2018, 02:26 PM
Thanks ya all. Just got back from the doctor. He believes that I have a small tremor in the left hand, that affects only my handwriting, and nothing else. It is a not a major issue, and I have NOT been diagnosed with a "neurological disorder." He has offered to prescribe me with medication, which he believes will completely neutralize this issue. The alternative is for me to continue to learn to write with my right hand, which is progressing very well. The only problem is that I naturally want to write with my left hand, so this is a difficult choice.

The new medication for curing the left hand writing tremors would require me to submit it to the FAA for approval. It would be completely safe, but still require FAA medical approval.

I'm of the opinion that I would not like to do this medication, and would rather keep moving forward with learning to write with my right hand.

I believe this is the best option moving forward, in terms of safety of myself and others in the aviation community.

As far as the comments about automation in the aviation community...it is crazy that the aviation industry has not become completely automated and using the keyboard.

Give me a freakin break. Almost every other industry has become keyboard, totally electronic, paperless, except for the day you start a new job and have to fill out the tax, etc., paperwork. But aviation still uses old fashioned, Civil War, Revolutionary War era paper and pen? Ah, aviation...come into the 21st century.

In any event, I plan to continue with my training. I'm not taking any drugs. I will fill out the Civil War, Revolutionary War, pieces of paper with my newly activated right hand.

Thanks All!

Have a wonderful weekend!

p.s.

Those of you who believe that I should have indicated that I have a "neurological disorder" on the FAA medical questionnaire...well I think you have been flying too long with the autopilot. Your brain has atrophied with too much automation.

Do I have to spell it out to you autopilot/FMS addicts?

Ok, I will spell it out, since some births were more difficult than others.

I was NEVER diagnosed with a neurological disorder. The FAA medical asks if you have ever had such an issue. In order for you to answer "yes" to that question, you need to have been diagnosed with the disorder. I am not capable of self diagnosing a neurological disorder, since I am not a trained and board certified physician. Therefore, since I have not been diagnosed with such a condition, it was correct and logical to answer "no" to that issue on the medical questionnaire.

Was that enough spelling out for you geniuses? Or should I spell it out further?

Good Lord, please tell me that some of you who don't get that are not at a major airline. If you are, Lord Help us. You are probably not, as the MAJORS are generally pretty good at sifting out the less than highly intelligent.

TiredSoul
09-28-2018, 04:44 PM
Itís called ďrationalizationĒ....look it up.
You suffer from it also.
How can you DENY you have a problem if you are teaching yourself to write with your other hand?
Thatís pretty bizarre.

Excargodog
09-28-2018, 06:20 PM
Itís called ďrationalizationĒ....look it up.
You suffer from it also.
How can you DENY you have a problem if you are teaching yourself to write with your other hand?
Thatís pretty bizarre.

That^^^^^^

rickair7777
09-29-2018, 08:01 AM
Those of you who believe that I should have indicated that I have a "neurological disorder" on the FAA medical questionnaire...well I think you have been flying too long with the autopilot. Your brain has atrophied with too much automation.

Do I have to spell it out to you autopilot/FMS addicts?

Ok, I will spell it out, since some births were more difficult than others.

I was NEVER diagnosed with a neurological disorder. The FAA medical asks if you have ever had such an issue. In order for you to answer "yes" to that question, you need to have been diagnosed with the disorder. I am not capable of self diagnosing a neurological disorder, since I am not a trained and board certified physician. Therefore, since I have not been diagnosed with such a condition, it was correct and logical to answer "no" to that issue on the medical questionnaire.

Was that enough spelling out for you geniuses? Or should I spell it out further?

Good Lord, please tell me that some of you who don't get that are not at a major airline. If you are, Lord Help us. You are probably not, as the MAJORS are generally pretty good at sifting out the less than highly intelligent.

Yes, I think we are all at majors. So we've been around this industry for a while, and have seen how things work. Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean that's not how it works.

I suspect you're a millennial, and have an expectation that everything's fair and accommodating. Well, it's not in the real world and this one of those times.

Again the good news is that I don't think DOJ is going to prosecute over this. See the pilot health forum for a lengthy discussion and media links of ongoing, current federal prosecutions of pilots who didn't fill out their medical forms accurately. I suggest you check it out...

Nobody here is trying to argue with you, some very experienced (and successful and highly compensated) professionals have some time on their hands and are willing to share their insight with noobs. No need to get angry about it... as others have said, people who can't take constructive criticism don't get far in this business.

For absolute clarity... IF you go on record as having a neurological issue, glitch, or whatever you want to call it for ten years you are exposed to some degree for having not reported it. If it's not on the record, then it's just between you, yourself, and the fly on the wall.

Excargodog
09-29-2018, 10:21 AM
Do I have to spell it out to you autopilot/FMS addicts?

Ok, I will spell it out, since some births were more difficult than others.


You know, subtlety is wasted on some people, and you seem to be one of those people. So here it is, NOT sugar coated:

1. You HAVE been diagnosed as having a neurological disorder. Your personal physician could not have offered you a prescription medication that would have required FAA approval without having made such a diagnosis. And he/she undoubtedly entered the ICD-10 coding for that diagnosis into the electronic medical record and it is now there forever. EMR systems have multiple backups and can't afford to lose data, so even if you didn't use medical insurance (who woukd have also received that ICD-10 code) there is an indelible record that you HAVE been diagnosed.

2. It is not for your physician to make the decision if your tremor is aero medically significant, not medically, not legally, and not ethically.

3. It is not for YOU to make the decision. Not legally, not medically, not ethically.

4. You have admitted that this has already interfered with your flying, and you have barely gotten started. You haven't gotten to the point where you are a mile outside the outer marker and approach tells you the guy in front of you just went missed approach and the field has gone well below minimums and they are now changing the published missed approach and in the event you cannot land - which has become a near certainty - you now need to go to some distant intersection at some nonstandard altitude and hold on some arbitrary heading until they sort out what to do with the guy in front of you and the three guys on back of you. And you have to copy that down single Pilot IFR while continuing to at least fly the localizer and maintain altitude because you can't actually go missed approach before the missed approach point either. You are, in fact, simply INCOMPETENT to have a meaningful opinion of your ability to do that.

5. At this point even your AME might not be able to clear you for anything more than a student license because this HAS interfered with your flying career meaning that he/she ought to defer this decision to Oklahoma City. See AME guide directions below:

Tremors, if sufficient to interfere with the performance of airman duties 12 All Submit a current status report to include functional status (degree of impairment as measured by strength, range of motion, pain), medications with side effects and all pertinent medical reports

Requires FAA Decision
For all the above conditions: If the applicant is otherwise qualified, the FAA may issue a limited certificate. This certificate will permit the applicant to proceed with flight training until ready for a MFT. At that time, at the applicant's request, the FAA (usually the AMCD) will authorize the student pilot to take a MFT in conjunction with the regular flight test.
The MFT and regular private pilot flight test are conducted by an FAA inspector. This affords the student an opportunity to demonstrate the ability to control the aircraft despite the handicap. The FAA inspector prepares a written report and indicates whether there is a safety problem. If the airman successfully completes the MFT, a medical certificate and SODA will be sent to the airman from AMCD.
.....

So yes, you can try and hide this and berate the world for still using carbon smeared on wood pulp as a memory aid, but don't doubt for a moment that what you are doing is illegal. And documentation of that is just sitting there, out of your reach but definitely not out of reach of the FAA.
You may not get caught, you may be able to make your right hand work well enough to get by, but yes, you are concealing a material fact and what you are doing is illegal. More to the point, it's stupid. It's in your interest as well as the FAAs to do this the right way.

The sad fact is that the FAA almost certainly would waiver this and you might even be better off on medication and a waiver.

I can't speak for your AME, but if I were him/her I'd get a psych eval on you as well.

TiredSoul
09-29-2018, 08:55 PM
And a big thank you to Rickair7777 and Excargodog.

Me?
Chief Flight Instructor 141, 6 years
Asst Chief/Check Instructor 141, 4 years
3 type ratings
11,500 hrs.

Itís time you listen.

jupiter87140
09-30-2018, 11:10 AM
I can't speak for your AME, but if I were him/her I'd get a psych eval on you as well.[/QUOTE]

Thatís actually a pretty cheap shot. It reveals more about your character than mine.

So, Iíll go ahead and issue my own cheap shot.

It was a mistake to post here. I had expected highly professional replies. And I did get a few. But Iím surprised by some of the juvenile and negative replies from others.

I get it. A once highly valued profession, where airline pilots were thought of as second only to astronauts, has turned into a profession where the general public sees airline pilots just above bus drivers, which is why many, many folks will no longer pursue the career, stay in the military, etc.

I suppose I would also be bitter if I were in this career, and this was the case. Because itís clear that some of your are very bitter. I see it in airport terminals all the time...pilots who look completely unhappy and totally fatigued.

Good luck ya all.

Excargodog
09-30-2018, 01:00 PM
I can't speak for your AME, but if I were him/her I'd get a psych eval on you as well.

. That’s actually a pretty cheap shot. It reveals more about your character than mine.

So, I’ll go ahead and issue my own cheap shot. It was a mistake to post here. I had expected highly professional replies. And I did get a few. But I’m surprised by some of the juvenile and negative replies from others.

I get it. A once highly valued profession, where airline pilots were thought of as second only to astronauts, has turned into a profession where the general public sees airline pilots just above bus drivers, which is why many, many folks will no longer pursue the career, stay in the military, etc.

I suppose I would also be bitter if I were in this career, and this was the case. Because it’s clear that some of your are very bitter. I see it in airport terminals all the time...pilots who look completely unhappy and totally fatigued.

Good luck ya all.


Cheap shot? No. Merely a statement of fact. Someone so totally lacking in insight is at considerable risk to have other even more serious psych issues.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9384876

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9384876

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904750/

https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/60685.pdf

Seriously, guy, you warrant a work up. Not a cheap shot, just a fact. Good luck to you. You are likely going to need it.

jupiter87140
09-30-2018, 04:10 PM
Cheap shot? No. Merely a statement of fact. Someone so totally lacking in insight is at considerable risk to have other even more serious psych issues.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9384876

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9384876

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904750/

https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/60685.pdf

Seriously, guy, you warrant a work up. Not a cheap shot, just a fact. Good luck to you. You are likely going to need it.

And your credentials for evaluating a person, who you have never met, as needing a psych evaluation are precisely what? Curious minds would like to know. Please state your professional credentials, in terms of your analysis and recommendations. Curious minds would like to be aware of your professional mental health credentials.

There is no way you are a pilot with a major airline. And if you are, that airline has seriously jumped the shark. I am good friends with a few major pilots, most all of who fly for Delta. I’m well aware of their hiring methods, interviewing techniques, etc., and you, your attitude, and thinking process simply would never make it through a process like that. They would figure you out within 10 minutes, and say thanks, but no thanks. There is no way someone with your simplistic mindset would ever be hired at an airline like that. Again, if you have been then that airline has definitely jumped the shark.

I would much rather have an issue with my left hand, which is easily remedied by learning to write with my other hand, then have your disability of telling someone on this forum, with no qualification whatsoever, that they need a “psych eval.”

You will need at least an undergraduate degree in psychology before you start pronouncing that other humans need a “psych eval.” Do you possess at least that? And most likely you would need a PhD in psychology, or a medical degree and a psychiatry residency before you could do that. Do you have either of those?

And have you ever considered that telling someone, when you obviously are unqualified to do so, that they need a “psych eval,” could do more harm than good, if it was a person who didn’t know that you are unqualified to make such a recommendation?

Good luck to you. I hope you’re not trying to get to the majors. As I said, I’m intimitely familiar with the interview process at one of the major, premier airlines, and you would not make it through 10 minutes of their interview (even if you went through an interview prep company; yes, they know all about those companies, and expect the canned answers from people coming from those prep shops) with your simplistic thinking. They would figure you out so quickly, and send you home so quickly, that your head would be spinning.

But hey, good luck, and best wishes to you, amateur “psychologist!”

TiredSoul
09-30-2018, 04:22 PM
Iím sorry to say your last reply just proved his point.
Thinking that writing with your other hand will solve the problem is delusional.
Youíve been told before - GO SEE A NEUROLOGIST -
Youíve already been told itís likely not going to be a problem with the FAA but what will be a problem is you not disclosing it.

Excargodog
09-30-2018, 05:20 PM
And your credentials for evaluating a person, who you have never met, as needing a psych evaluation are precisely what?



OIC of the PRP/HRP program for a fighter wing with a strike mission as one of its DOC statements if you must know. And the wing routinely pulled clearances on people who had as difficult a time dealing with reality as you apparently do, pending psych eval.

But as the old saying goes about leading a horse to water, I realize you aren't going to listen. - I think we all do by now - and bear you no malice. I hope for your sake you get help.

That's my last communication with you.

Excargodog
09-30-2018, 05:22 PM
And your credentials for evaluating a person, who you have never met, as needing a psych evaluation are precisely what?



Former OIC of the PRP/HRP program for a fighter wing with a strike mission as one of its DOC statements if you must know. And the wing routinely pulled clearances on people who had as difficult a time dealing with reality as you apparently do, pending psych eval.

But as the old saying goes about leading a horse to water, I realize you aren't going to listen. - I think we all do by now - and bear you no malice. I hope for your sake you get help.

That's my last communication with you.

TiredSoul
09-30-2018, 05:27 PM
Iím throwing in the towel too.
Shame really.
We could have given him a lot more help.

jupiter87140
10-01-2018, 10:31 AM
Folks, I had thought that asking a sincere question here would result in constructive, sincere replies. That has obviously, with a few exceptions, not been the case. Some of you who have responded about this matter have been very constructive, and I thank you for that. I thank you very much, indeed.

A whole lot of you have been cynical, negative, and somewhat nasty, including one who suggested I would need a "psych eval," lol. LOL indeed.

Again, as a broken record, to the person suggesting a "psych eval," I'm very sure your are at not a pilot at a major airline, and you will never be. The early screening systems of most major airlines (except maybe Allegiant or Spirit) would screen you out so quickly that your head would spin, and you would have no chance, except for, again, maybe Allegiant or Spirit. Have a good time at those two places. Have a good time, indeed, Mr. Psychologist/Psychiatrist.

Good luck!

rickair7777
10-01-2018, 11:16 AM
Folks, I had thought that asking a sincere question here would result in constructive, sincere replies. That has obviously, with a few exceptions, not been the case. Some of you who have responded about this matter have been very constructive, and I thank you for that. I thank you very much, indeed.

A whole lot of you have been cynical, negative, and somewhat nasty, including one who suggested I would need a "psych eval," lol. LOL indeed.

Again, as a broken record, to the person suggesting a "psych eval," I'm very sure your are at not a pilot at a major airline, and you will never be. The early screening systems of most major airlines (except maybe Allegiant or Spirit) would screen you out so quickly that your head would spin, and you would have no chance, except for, again, maybe Allegiant or Spirit. Have a good time at those two places. Have a good time, indeed, Mr. Psychologist/Psychiatrist.

Good luck!

Again, you don't have the experience in this industry. The "psych evals" of which you speak with such reverence are primarily "personality evals". They are intended to find good "fits", which as far as the company is concerned probably means people who will be content and not fight to hard or long at contract time. Plenty of obviously good dudes, with families and extensive aviation experience, get left in the ditch after said "psych evals".

dera
10-01-2018, 11:57 AM
Last time you were here, you were invited for an interview at Kalitta by Connie himself.
What's your next reincarnation?

TiredSoul
10-01-2018, 12:25 PM
Iím starting to thing the arguing style is similar to the guy who wanted to go from Private - VLJ and was discussing and arguing all sorts of ways how to get the bestest oldest instructor he was entitled to.

Mtnrunner
10-01-2018, 03:18 PM
Iím starting to thing the arguing style is similar to the guy who wanted to go from Private - VLJ and was discussing and arguing all sorts of ways how to get the bestest oldest instructor he was entitled to.

I thought the same thing! Except this know it all doesnít write a full 5,000 word dissertation with each reply.

Airbum
10-01-2018, 04:23 PM
I thought the same thing also, I have been enjoying his the world starts with me comments.

I will have to try really really hard to make to the majors someday for in his incredible opinion I am surely unworthy.

I stand with Excargo, subtle is lost on him.

jupiter87140
10-01-2018, 04:38 PM
Good lord, if this is the state of professional aviation today, then we are in severe trouble. But I suspect you doozies are not representative of the majority of pilots. Have fun, bus drivers.

Glenntilton
10-01-2018, 05:00 PM
I have had ET forever, at least in my teens that I can remember,

Join the AF, became a fighter pilot and now an Airline pilot.

I think my reactions are actually quicker than most people, could be related to ET. When something is about to or is falling, I snatch it. People are always amazed.

Anyway, it is just embarrassing when writing or drinking from a cup in front of people. Otherwise a non issue.

Mtnrunner
10-01-2018, 06:04 PM
Good lord, if this is the state of professional aviation today, then we are in severe trouble. But I suspect you doozies are not representative of the majority of pilots. Have fun, bus drivers.

Care to say what your profession is (when youíre not sitting in on DL interviews)?

dbdevkc
10-02-2018, 08:16 AM
From "I have not yet done a landing, although we are working up to that." to "Have fun, bus drivers."

Wow. Dude, you haven't even solo'd yet. Get a grip. My .02: Get off the forums. Talk to an AME. Learn how to fly.

jupiter87140
10-02-2018, 10:33 AM
Last time you were here, you were invited for an interview at Kalitta by Connie himself.
What's your next reincarnation?

Ah, I beg your pardon? I have absolutely no knowledge about what you are talking about.

jupiter87140
10-02-2018, 10:36 AM
Former OIC of the PRP/HRP program for a fighter wing with a strike mission as one of its DOC statements if you must know. And the wing routinely pulled clearances on people who had as difficult a time dealing with reality as you apparently do, pending psych eval.

But as the old saying goes about leading a horse to water, I realize you aren't going to listen. - I think we all do by now - and bear you no malice. I hope for your sake you get help.

That's my last communication with you.

Of course it's your last communication with you, because you have been found to be totally wanting, in terms of your ability to determine if a person needs a "psych eval."

Of course, you would not want to have any more communication, which might demonstrate your foolishness and incompetence.

jupiter87140
10-02-2018, 10:46 AM
Again folks, looking back here, it is clear that most of you, with the exception of a few - thank you for your comments - are not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree. That is very clear. That will be found out within the first 10 minutes of a major airline interview, regardless of whether you went through Emerald Coast, etc. The majors are very well aware of what all of your Emerald Coast, etc., answers will be. I rather doubt that those who I am referring to, some of the morons on this forum, would ever make it to a major airline interview.

Take care, and good luck with your aviation aspirations.

dera
10-02-2018, 11:54 AM
Ah, I beg your pardon? I have absolutely no knowledge about what you are talking about.

That was one of your previous alter egos.
You should change your writing style from one account to another, it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious then.

TaylorPilot
10-02-2018, 05:52 PM
I don't think you have done anything wrong. It was your first medical form and you have just started dipping your toe into the steaming pile of ******* that is the FAA legal system. That said, it is upon you as a pilot to "self ground" yourself if you develop a medical issue that could limit your abilities to carry out your duties. I would try to lean on the side of caution when dealing with the FAA. The AOPA is a non-profit (not really) organization that lobbies for and assists pilots. If you pay their yearly fee (I think it is less than a one hour rental), you have access to their lawyers and medical staff that can answer any questions. I personally would not do anything (fly or mess with a new medical form) until I talked to them and had a very good idea of the path forward.

As far as paper and pen being stone aged, I disagree. You can use the Ipad, and apps like foreflight that typically have a scratch pad, even with different sections for standardized clearances. Problem is standard clearances are kind of like 29.92...they never happen. Once you start IFR training, and/or operating out of complex airports and air spaces, you will get some pretty none standard instructions. You need a free hand way of writing these down quickly. Heading and altitude can quickly be dialed in with heading and altitude bugs. But most 40 year old cessnas don't have them, and dual g5s to get them run about 10k. There really isn't any faster or easier way then just writing it down. I am left handed and sometimes it is a PITA because I put a knee board on my right knee, and without an autopilot in turbulence down low I have to reach over and write on my other knee. Life would be easier if I was right handed. Plus paper never runs out of batteries. The further you get into this you will realize everything is about redundancy and simplicity. I understand why you may have gotten upset with some of these guys basically saying you broke the law, that's why you came here to ask right?! It has all gotten a little out of control. Although some of them have pretty strong personalities, they typically lean on the side of caution and collectively have 100s of years of experience. I know guys with much much more serious issues that fly every week, living the good life. This is not insurmountable.

In summation, paper is used because it works great, doesn't break and is cheap (rare in aviation). Call AOPA, find out if it is an issue, and if the medicine he suggested will be something you would need to report before your next medical. Personally if I could take a medicine that wouldn't effect my ability to get a medical, and would allow me to get rid of a tremor, I would do it without question.

You will need to be able to write free hand to be a pilot...Sometimes under high stress situations in a cloud, in congested airspace, with malfunctioning equipment. If you are having to worry about your ability to write legibly, you are adding another layer of stress you do not need. Being an airline pilot right now is a great career choice. Beginning pay is getting better, and senior pay has always been good...Lots of retirements coming, more demand world wide...

I just wish everyone would stop taking everything so personal and maintain civility.

jupiter87140
10-03-2018, 07:49 AM
I don't think you have done anything wrong. It was your first medical form and you have just started dipping your toe into the steaming pile of ******* that is the FAA legal system. That said, it is upon you as a pilot to "self ground" yourself if you develop a medical issue that could limit your abilities to carry out your duties. I would try to lean on the side of caution when dealing with the FAA. The AOPA is a non-profit (not really) organization that lobbies for and assists pilots. If you pay their yearly fee (I think it is less than a one hour rental), you have access to their lawyers and medical staff that can answer any questions. I personally would not do anything (fly or mess with a new medical form) until I talked to them and had a very good idea of the path forward.

As far as paper and pen being stone aged, I disagree. You can use the Ipad, and apps like foreflight that typically have a scratch pad, even with different sections for standardized clearances. Problem is standard clearances are kind of like 29.92...they never happen. Once you start IFR training, and/or operating out of complex airports and air spaces, you will get some pretty none standard instructions. You need a free hand way of writing these down quickly. Heading and altitude can quickly be dialed in with heading and altitude bugs. But most 40 year old cessnas don't have them, and dual g5s to get them run about 10k. There really isn't any faster or easier way then just writing it down. I am left handed and sometimes it is a PITA because I put a knee board on my right knee, and without an autopilot in turbulence down low I have to reach over and write on my other knee. Life would be easier if I was right handed. Plus paper never runs out of batteries. The further you get into this you will realize everything is about redundancy and simplicity. I understand why you may have gotten upset with some of these guys basically saying you broke the law, that's why you came here to ask right?! It has all gotten a little out of control. Although some of them have pretty strong personalities, they typically lean on the side of caution and collectively have 100s of years of experience. I know guys with much much more serious issues that fly every week, living the good life. This is not insurmountable.

In summation, paper is used because it works great, doesn't break and is cheap (rare in aviation). Call AOPA, find out if it is an issue, and if the medicine he suggested will be something you would need to report before your next medical. Personally if I could take a medicine that wouldn't effect my ability to get a medical, and would allow me to get rid of a tremor, I would do it without question.

You will need to be able to write free hand to be a pilot...Sometimes under high stress situations in a cloud, in congested airspace, with malfunctioning equipment. If you are having to worry about your ability to write legibly, you are adding another layer of stress you do not need. Being an airline pilot right now is a great career choice. Beginning pay is getting better, and senior pay has always been good...Lots of retirements coming, more demand world wide...

I just wish everyone would stop taking everything so personal and maintain civility.

Thank you my friend. Your advice is VERY much appreciated. The medication recommended by my doctor is prohibited by the FAA, and therefore I will not have him prescribe it for me. Iím finding that the most difficulty with my left hand is writing in extremely little boxes. No problem writing in larger spaces, and no problem with the right hand whatsoever. And again, this issue is only with handwriting with the left hand. It has no issue - at all - to do with larger neurological functions of controlling the yolk with left hand, pushing buttons with left hand, rotating buttons with left hand, etc. I believe that I will be able to get past this issue with a lot of effort.

Thanks again for your intelligent and informative input.

TiredSoul
10-03-2018, 10:43 AM
Shockingly his message wasnít any different then ours.

:rolleyes:



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