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View Full Version : Upgrade under 1 year again....


amcnd
09-28-2018, 06:47 PM
So Upgrade on the CRJ is under 1 year again. Just awarded today.. 1/18 hire date.

Someone is going to ask, so ERJ is 3.5 years..


greendotplus10
09-28-2018, 07:46 PM
So Upgrade on the CRJ is under 1 year again. Just awarded today.. 1/18 hire date.

Someone is going to ask, so ERJ is 3.5 years..

Just checked the website; a 2/18 captain is in DTW. This 1/18 guy or gal must be there as well.

ajaf1656
09-29-2018, 10:10 PM
ERJ upgrade is actually 2.5 right now.


TimetoClimb
09-30-2018, 04:54 AM
It was 2.5 but it's back to 3-3.5. Lots of transitions.

ajaf1656
09-30-2018, 07:24 AM
It was 2.5 but it's back to 3-3.5. Lots of transitions.

Salt Lake dinosaurs coming out of their caves to see what this "VNAV" is all about? lol

jtsastre
09-30-2018, 07:37 AM
Salt Lake dinosaurs coming out of their caves to see what this "VNAV" is all about? lol

Where’s the like button?

savedbythevnav
09-30-2018, 09:15 AM
Salt Lake dinosaurs coming out of their caves to see what this "VNAV" is all about? lol

You win the internet today lol.

"S y s t e m l o g i c"

01Echo
10-01-2018, 10:18 AM
ERJ upgrade is actually 2.5 right now.

How much longer is it for an ERJ FO to meet upgrade time requirements (1,000 121/2,500 TT) than a CRJ FO. Most people at the company say choose the CRJ for the quick upgrade, but can't an ERJ FO upgrade to CRJ CA once they meet the time requirements?

zondaracer
10-01-2018, 11:01 AM
How much longer is it for an ERJ FO to meet upgrade time requirements (1,000 121/2,500 TT) than a CRJ FO. Most people at the company say choose the CRJ for the quick upgrade, but can't an ERJ FO upgrade to CRJ CA once they meet the time requirements?
ERJ FOs can upgrade into the CRJ. For awhile, reserve was much longer on the E175 compared to the CRJ in the most junior domiciles. Being on reserve often means it takes longer to get the 1000 hours. The reserve numbers have started to stabilize and even out on each fleet.

01Echo
10-01-2018, 11:21 AM
ERJ FOs can upgrade into the CRJ. For awhile, reserve was much longer on the E175 compared to the CRJ in the most junior domiciles. Being on reserve often means it takes longer to get the 1000 hours. The reserve numbers have started to stabilize and even out on each fleet.

Thanks, that doesn't sound too bad. Is it my understanding for those starting with a 1,000 hour restricted ATP will have to wait until 2,500 TT for upgrade instead of just 1,000 121 time (2,000 TT)?

DragonFlyer14
10-02-2018, 05:14 AM
A little confused while looking at SkyWest's website regarding upgrade time. Are all of the central/East coast bases where the upgrade to captain seats are opening up the quickest? So if I was a new hire and wanted to bid into LAX/SFO/DEN etc...my upgrade time would be between the 3-5 year mark since I have 0 121 time?

amcnd
10-02-2018, 05:23 AM
A little confused while looking at SkyWest's website regarding upgrade time. Are all of the central/East coast bases where the upgrade to captain seats are opening up the quickest? So if I was a new hire and wanted to bid into LAX/SFO/DEN etc...my upgrade time would be between the 3-5 year mark since I have 0 121 time?

By then you should be able to get further west.. but yes ORD/DTW seem to be the jr captain at 1 year... Then DFW, LAX

Claxstarr
10-02-2018, 07:33 AM
Thanks, that doesn't sound too bad. Is it my understanding for those starting with a 1,000 hour restricted ATP will have to wait until 2,500 TT for upgrade instead of just 1,000 121 time (2,000 TT)?

That is correct.

word302
10-02-2018, 09:32 AM
By then you should be able to get further west.. but yes ORD/DTW seem to be the jr captain at 1 year... Then DFW, LAX

I highly doubt the upgrade out west is going to come down.

DarkSideMoon
10-02-2018, 01:38 PM
How much longer is it for an ERJ FO to meet upgrade time requirements (1,000 121/2,500 TT) than a CRJ FO. Most people at the company say choose the CRJ for the quick upgrade, but can't an ERJ FO upgrade to CRJ CA once they meet the time requirements?

Why would you willingly choose to spend a year or two on an airplane you aren’t going to fly as a captain and then take an upgrade checkride in a plane you’ve never flown?

word302
10-02-2018, 01:51 PM
Why would you willingly choose to spend a year or two on an airplane you aren’t going to fly as a captain and then take an upgrade checkride in a plane you’ve never flown?

Because it's not really that big of a deal.

DarkSideMoon
10-02-2018, 06:32 PM
Because it's not really that big of a deal.

Can’t stand to give up a year of shiny jet?

word302
10-02-2018, 08:49 PM
Can’t stand to give up a year of shiny jet?

I didn't say that. I said it's not really that big of a deal to upgrade on a jet you've never flown. It's done at the legacies every day.

Hawker445
10-02-2018, 10:11 PM
Just checked the website; a 2/18 captain is in DTW. This 1/18 guy or gal must be there as well.

I know that (or a) 2/18 CRJ captain. He says he's on reserve.

Ace66
10-03-2018, 07:16 AM
Because it's not really that big of a deal.


It is a big deal. I've flown with one and it wasn't pretty.



It's done at the majors all the time but those guys have way more than 1000 hours of 121 time and have flown multiple 121 aircraft. The guy's comment was "1000 hours of 121 time + upgrade in new jet = not a good idea".


I know of a guy who upgraded on the CRJ from the ERJ but he had a couple of years under his belt. Very sharp guy. For the average guy (and that's most of us) not a good idea.


Take a 1000 hour ERJ FO from ORD, upgrade him on the CRJ, and then throw him into some of the tricky airports out West - not a good idea....

word302
10-03-2018, 09:30 AM
It is a big deal. I've flown with one and it wasn't pretty.



It's done at the majors all the time but those guys have way more than 1000 hours of 121 time and have flown multiple 121 aircraft. The guy's comment was "1000 hours of 121 time + upgrade in new jet = not a good idea".


I know of a guy who upgraded on the CRJ from the ERJ but he had a couple of years under his belt. Very sharp guy. For the average guy (and that's most of us) not a good idea.


Take a 1000 hour ERJ FO from ORD, upgrade him on the CRJ, and then throw him into some of the tricky airports out West - not a good idea....
I still completely disagree. Those who aren't ready at 1000 SIC likely aren't ready at 2000. a jet is a jet. This job just ain't really that hard. I've flown them both, one isn't particularly more complex than the other, just different. Plenty of people have made the exact transition you're talking about with 0 issues.

DarkSideMoon
10-03-2018, 09:43 AM
I still completely disagree. Those who aren't ready at 1000 SIC likely aren't ready at 2000. a jet is a jet. This job just ain't really that hard. I've flown them both, one isn't particularly more complex than the other, just different. Plenty of people have made the exact transition you're talking about with 0 issues.

Why risk a possible checkride failure just so you can fly an ERJ for a bit? If it makes passing an upgrade checkride even 1% more difficult why bother with the ERJ in the first place. I’m all about risk mitigation.

word302
10-03-2018, 09:56 AM
Why risk a possible checkride failure just so you can fly an ERJ for a bit? If it makes passing an upgrade checkride even 1% more difficult why bother with the ERJ in the first place. I’m all about risk mitigation.

If you're all about risk mitigation you're in the wrong industry. To answer your question we have bases that are ERJ only. If taking the ERJ means being home-based or a better commute while on FO pay, it's a no-brainer.

DarkSideMoon
10-03-2018, 10:04 AM
If you're all about risk mitigation you're in the wrong industry.To answer your question we have bases that are ERJ only. If taking the ERJ means being home-based or a better commute while on FO pay, it's a no-brainer.

Our entire job is risk mitigation 😂

greendotplus10
10-03-2018, 10:15 AM
Because it's not really that big of a deal.



I would approach this thinking with caution. I fly the E170 now, but I’m thinking about upgrading onto a different aircraft (CRJ7/9, or E145). I would want at least a few hundred hours in the right seat to act as transition training before upgrade. The differences between the aircraft could get you in trouble.

Ace66
10-04-2018, 07:43 AM
Those who aren't ready at 1000 SIC likely aren't ready at 2000. a jet is a jet. This job just ain't really that hard.


Whoa dude. Everyone has a different learning curve which is also dependent on exposure to events (some pilots never have an issue and have easy flying for the first 1000 hours). Some learn slower but deeper and others learn faster and sometimes stop learning at a shallow level so faster does not necessarily mean better.



Most Captains (at least the good ones) think that upgrading at 1000 hours is f'n crazy.



"This job just ain't really that hard." I guess you haven't had your "dark and stormy night" flight yet.....

word302
10-04-2018, 11:50 AM
Whoa dude. Everyone has a different learning curve which is also dependent on exposure to events (some pilots never have an issue and have easy flying for the first 1000 hours). Some learn slower but deeper and others learn faster and sometimes stop learning at a shallow level so faster does not necessarily mean better.



Most Captains (at least the good ones) think that upgrading at 1000 hours is f'n crazy.



"This job just ain't really that hard." I guess you haven't had your "dark and stormy night" flight yet.....

My point is, you'll likely not see any of the crazy stuff until after you upgrade. Call it the curse of the new captain. I totally get that everyone has a different learning curve. My point in this thread was that upgrading into an aircraft that you have not flown is really not that big of a deal, especially with a stellar training department. Like I said before, it's done at the legacies every day.

savedbythevnav
10-09-2018, 10:39 AM
Thanks, that doesn't sound too bad. Is it my understanding for those starting with a 1,000 hour restricted ATP will have to wait until 2,500 TT for upgrade instead of just 1,000 121 time (2,000 TT)?

I thought they were waiving the 2500TT out of desperation.

trip
10-10-2018, 11:44 AM
F/Os who've only flown the ERJ have trouble upgrading into the CRJ, less automation, not as user friendly, especially the 200.

TimetoClimb
10-10-2018, 12:12 PM
F/Os who've only flown the ERJ have trouble upgrading into the CRJ, less automation, not as user friendly, especially the 200.

And captains who've flown the crj and bro for a decade or more transitioning to the 175 have the highest pink slip rate at the company.

amcnd
10-10-2018, 01:46 PM
And captains who've flown the crj and bro for a decade or more transitioning to the 175 have the highest pink slip rate at the company.

And that Suprises you.....????...

tm602
10-14-2018, 02:26 PM
So getting back to the subject....a buddy of mine wants to leave his job at one of our competing fracs and he has the ATP and a couple type ratings. Would he upgrade sooner?

rickair7777
10-14-2018, 05:53 PM
So getting back to the subject....a buddy of mine wants to leave his job at one of our competing fracs and he has the ATP and a couple type ratings. Would he upgrade sooner?

Upgrade awards are based on:

1) Meeting the minimum FAR qualifications
2) Seniority

There's essentially no subjectivity, discretion, or pre-evaluation involved, if you have the aeronautical experience and the awards reach your seniority, you get it.

Airlines have historically required FO's to get LOR's or evals from CA's who recommend them for upgrades but I doubt many regionals bother enforcing that these days.

wrxpilot
10-14-2018, 07:18 PM
And captains who've flown the crj and bro for a decade or more transitioning to the 175 have the highest pink slip rate at the company.

That really surprises me, as SkyWest honestly does a great job at teaching VNAV and the automation on the 175. I went to the 175 as a 6 year CRJ CA, and really enjoyed the training experience.

tm602
10-14-2018, 07:23 PM
Upgrade awards are based on:

1) Meeting the minimum FAR qualifications
2) Seniority

There's essentially no subjectivity, discretion, or pre-evaluation involved, if you have the aeronautical experience and the awards reach your seniority, you get it.

Airlines have historically required FO's to get LOR's or evals from CA's who recommend them for upgrades but I doubt many regionals bother enforcing that these days.

I told to expect about a year to year and a half.

tm602
10-14-2018, 07:24 PM
Upgrade awards are based on:

1) Meeting the minimum FAR qualifications
2) Seniority

There's essentially no subjectivity, discretion, or pre-evaluation involved, if you have the aeronautical experience and the awards reach your seniority, you get it.

Airlines have historically required FO's to get LOR's or evals from CA's who recommend them for upgrades but I doubt many regionals bother enforcing that these days.

I told to expect about a year to year and a half based on current movement

SaltyDog
10-14-2018, 08:09 PM
That really surprises me, as SkyWest honestly does a great job at teaching VNAV and the automation on the 175. I went to the 175 as a 6 year CRJ CA, and really enjoyed the training experience.

Your assuming timetoclimb is accurate and not throwing anecdotal info around. See it all the time. Call your training department, and they likely may not officially comment on any failure info. most corporate lawyers don't like this data released. Perhaps the poster is an instructor and has data? Perhaps a inflated reaction to the comments regarding "its no big deal to upgrade"
Being a Captain is more than flying the airframe. The Captain is the chief admin (FAA regs, FOM, OPSPECS, system expert, Weather expert, thunderstorm expert flyer, etc. If one believes no big deal, then they misunderstand how the FAA looks at the title with the easy upgrade.

rickair7777
10-15-2018, 06:15 AM
That really surprises me, as SkyWest honestly does a great job at teaching VNAV and the automation on the 175. I went to the 175 as a 6 year CRJ CA, and really enjoyed the training experience.

I would not expect CRJ people to have trouble. Anyone who has managed the VNAV by hand on the CRJ would be highly motivated to learn how to automate it. The CRJ was a lot more fun to fly before RNAV arrivals became a thing.

Career Bro people transitioning to jets, some did fine but others didn't even graduate. What we do is not always easy, and it's harder at age 50+ after having not done anything new for 25 years.

tomgoodman
10-15-2018, 07:21 AM
What we do is not always easy, and it's harder at age 50+ after having not done anything new for 25 years.

No kidding! I had trouble learning how to be a retiree, and needed extra training from a Line Check Sloth. :D

TimetoClimb
10-15-2018, 11:48 AM
Your assuming timetoclimb is accurate and not throwing anecdotal info around. See it all the time. Call your training department, and they likely may not officially comment on any failure info. most corporate lawyers don't like this data released. Perhaps the poster is an instructor and has data? Perhaps a inflated reaction to the comments regarding "its no big deal to upgrade"
Being a Captain is more than flying the airframe. The Captain is the chief admin (FAA regs, FOM, OPSPECS, system expert, Weather expert, thunderstorm expert flyer, etc. If one believes no big deal, then they misunderstand how the FAA looks at the title with the easy upgrade.

1. I am not in the training department.
2. This is what I heard word of mouth but I've heard it more than once & from guys that seem to be well informed.
3. Anecdotally, the only guy to pink slip in my class was a long time bro then crj captain. It was a little mess up managing the automation that caused an altitude bust, not an egregious error.

TransWorld
10-16-2018, 07:50 PM
No kidding! I had trouble learning how to be a retiree, and needed extra training from a Line Check Sloth. :D

And, if you fail at that, well there is always the “Welcome to Walmart” Greeter position open.

Rotor2Wing
10-17-2018, 07:09 AM
And that Suprises you.....????...

Sincere question from a dude who is thinking of switching from HAA/HEMS to an RTP program. Sorry if it sounds ignorant or condescending.... its not meant to be.

Why are people having issues in training upgrading to the 175 from the CRJ? I have pals that went from helos to 175 via RTP that had no issues in training. Why would a dude who has actually been flying a jet for awhile as an FO have more difficulty in training than a helo guy?

rickair7777
10-17-2018, 07:14 AM
Sincere question from a dude who is thinking of switching from HAA/HEMS to an RTP program. Sorry if it sounds ignorant or condescending.... its not meant to be.

Why are people having issues in training upgrading to the 175 from the CRJ? I have pals that went from helos to 175 via RTP that had no issues in training. Why would a dude who has actually been flying a jet for awhile as an FO have more difficulty in training than a helo guy?

Upgrade is held to a higher standard. Upgrading into a plane you've never flown can be quite challenging, not recommended for the faint of heart (or the weak of training).

Especially since a 121 pink slip is going to haunt you for the rest of your career, unless your already at your final airline job.

moflyer
10-17-2018, 02:37 PM
Sincere question from a dude who is thinking of switching from HAA/HEMS to an RTP program. Sorry if it sounds ignorant or condescending.... its not meant to be.

Why are people having issues in training upgrading to the 175 from the CRJ? I have pals that went from helos to 175 via RTP that had no issues in training. Why would a dude who has actually been flying a jet for awhile as an FO have more difficulty in training than a helo guy?
It really comes down to, cant’t teach an old dog new tricks. SkyWest has always had guys who really struggle to learn a new more modern plane. When I was there their were guys who had failed the CRJ program twice and were stuck on E-120. When the E-175 showed up alot of the older guys who flew the E-120 for 20 plus years struggled tontransition. Several pilots took other jobs in the company until they turned 65. The same thing also happens with CRJ to E-175 transitions.

amcnd
10-17-2018, 02:42 PM
It really comes down to, cant’t teach an old dog new tricks. SkyWest has always had guys who really struggle to learn a new more modern plane. When I was there their were guys who had failed the CRJ program twice and were stuck on E-120. When the E-175 showed up alot of the older guys who flew the E-120 for 20 plus years struggled tontransition. Several pilots took other jobs in the company until they turned 65. The same thing also happens with CRJ to E-175 transitions.

There were maybe 4-6 that struggled.... we have 4,600 pilots. Realy not a significant topic. Ive flown with most of them. Not shocking they struggled.....

flyoutaz
12-11-2018, 04:27 PM
Just to clarify, currently/for the foreseeable time, if willing to take first upgrade, Captain upgrade is hitting the 1000 121qual time regardless of time in company once you can hold the bid seniority wise since others bypass/haven't got their 1000 yet?

TheFly
12-11-2018, 04:47 PM
Just to clarify, currently/for the foreseeable time, if willing to take first upgrade, Captain upgrade is hitting the 1000 121qual time regardless of time in company once you can hold the bid seniority wise since others bypass/haven't got their 1000 yet?

Yes, with 2500TT minimum. There have been guys who came over from other regionals and upgrade faster due to this.

flyoutaz
12-11-2018, 04:49 PM
Yes, with 2500TT minimum. There have been guys who came over from other regionals and upgrade faster due to this.

Thanks for the confirmation!

word302
12-12-2018, 06:37 AM
Just to clarify, currently/for the foreseeable time, if willing to take first upgrade, Captain upgrade is hitting the 1000 121qual time regardless of time in company once you can hold the bid seniority wise since others bypass/haven't got their 1000 yet?

Not exactly. If you come in with 0 121 time then yes, you can likely upgrade as soon as you get your time. If you come in with a considerable amount of 121 time, you will have a wait to upgrade. While it has in the past dropped to nearly street hires, the current junior captain award is a 4/2017 hire. If you plan on a 2 year upgrade you won’t be disappointed.

amcnd
12-12-2018, 06:51 AM
Not exactly. If you come in with 0 121 time then yes, you can likely upgrade as soon as you get your time. If you come in with a considerable amount of 121 time, you will have a wait to upgrade. While it has in the past dropped to nearly street hires, the current junior captain award is a 4/2017 hire. If you plan on a 2 year upgrade you won’t be disappointed.

The first few bids for Upgyadter the first of the year always go up (FO’s wanting the holidays off ) it will drop back down in the spring. Training was asked to increase class sizes. Total of 130 NH’s for January.. And they plan to keep it full seep for the foreseeable future.

word302
12-12-2018, 07:47 AM
The first few bids for Upgyadter the first of the year always go up (FO’s wanting the holidays off ) it will drop back down in the spring. Training was asked to increase class sizes. Total of 130 NH’s for January.. And they plan to keep it full seep for the foreseeable future.

Oh I get it. I'm just saying if you come in with expectations to upgrade in 6 months because you have 121 time you might be disappointed. Also that award is for January classes so not sure the holidays are a factor.

amcnd
12-12-2018, 10:24 AM
Oh I get it. I'm just saying if you come in with expectations to upgrade in 6 months because you have 121 time you might be disappointed. Also that award is for January classes so not sure the holidays are a factor.

Thats what i just said. Look at the OCT/NOV awards Jr.. people love the “after jan 1” function. I predict it will drop below 1 year again. Go back and look at my track record...

word302
12-12-2018, 11:30 AM
Thats what i just said. Look at the OCT/NOV awards Jr.. people love the “after jan 1” function. I predict it will drop below 1 year again. Go back and look at my track record...

Well anyone who has "after Jan 1" function would have gotten an award this last round, which is what I said. I don't doubt the upgrade will dip below 1 year again at times. The whole point of my post was to temper expectations.

amcnd
12-12-2018, 11:47 AM
Well anyone who has "after Jan 1" function would have gotten an award this last round, which is what I said. I don't doubt the upgrade will dip below 1 year again at times. The whole point of my post was to temper expectations.

While i agree never “chase a upgrade” i do see the traing plan for the next few months. And I believe that upgrade will come back down.(CRJ) . there are a few reasons why one. Senior guys will bid off the CRJ for the ERJ. And the amount of training that will be conducted will drive it down.. wont go into specifics. But just look at the training department openings.. , for sim, ground, ftd, matrix, cpt..



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