Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Weekendwarrior2
09-29-2018, 07:27 AM
At some point we have to start aligning with the rest of the top regionals and matching pay. Is this being negotiated or even on the talking table? Who cares about flow when there is literally going to be thousands of pilots retiring from ALL majors in the next few years. The only reason flow is so valuable at AA is because it is the only likely way of getting hired OTS unless you have fixed wing military experience (I know there has been a fair share of civilian/rotary hires but itís slim in comparison to the fixed wing mil). Iím not advocating getting rid of flow since itís so ingrained in the way Envoy operates now. However, I believe the number of people hired OTS who have been actively updating their applications the past few years would probably already have a class date at AA right now if those spots were not taken up by flow slots from the 3 WOs. Again, not saying get rid of the flow or change it, but why is this always the reasoning management gives for not increasing pay? Hopefully if Skywest passes their TA we will see a bigger drop in classes...I doubt it though.


Pedro4President
09-29-2018, 07:46 AM
At some point we have to start aligning with the rest of the top regionals and matching pay. Is this being negotiated or even on the talking table? Who cares about flow when there is literally going to be thousands of pilots retiring from ALL majors in the next few years. The only reason flow is so valuable at AA is because it is the only likely way of getting hired OTS unless you have fixed wing military experience (I know there has been a fair share of civilian/rotary hires but itís slim in comparison to the fixed wing mil). Iím not advocating getting rid of flow since itís so ingrained in the way Envoy operates now. However, I believe the number of people hired OTS who have been actively updating their applications the past few years would probably already have a class date at AA right now if those spots were not taken up by flow slots from the 3 WOs. Again, not saying get rid of the flow or change it, but why is this always the reasoning management gives for not increasing pay? Hopefully if Skywest passes their TA we will see a bigger drop in classes...I doubt it though.

No pay increase insight. Only on Jan 1 and your anniversary.

PilotPete4You
09-29-2018, 08:14 AM
Express Jet passed their new TA. It should hit the books tomorrow. Lower on the ladder we stand.


use2fly
09-29-2018, 09:10 AM
I erased my long rant about our pilot group that does everything for subpar pay rates and work rules. (Yes, I include myself in that group)


Short answer

No, we will not see pay raises because everyone is willing to sell their soul for the flow.


And yes, I have my apps out

in2deep
09-29-2018, 09:22 AM
Instead of just sitting back, what can we do about it?

ENH017
09-29-2018, 10:05 AM
There's almost no reason for Envoy to give us pay raises, they are turning new hires away in order to control exactly how they want the new hire classes to lay out. We're not losing current employees since half the pilot group will flow in 5 years or less (from today).

Looking into the future yes we could very well see a shortage of new hires again due to pay falling behind the norm. There's just not enough evidence today to convince AAG that pumping money into the pilot group will result in any financial returns for them.

Want to increase pay? Start convicing people to stop coming here now.. and maybe in 2 or 3 years AAG will bring pay back to the table.

SilentLurker
09-29-2018, 10:36 AM
There's almost no reason for Envoy to give us pay raises, they are turning new hires away in order to control exactly how they want the new hire classes to lay out. We're not losing current employees since half the pilot group will flow in 5 years or less (from today).



Looking into the future yes we could very well see a shortage of new hires again due to pay falling behind the norm. There's just not enough evidence today to convince AAG that pumping money into the pilot group will result in any financial returns for them.



Want to increase pay? Start convicing people to stop coming here now.. and maybe in 2 or 3 years AAG will bring pay back to the table.



Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.

SiouxperWild
09-29-2018, 10:56 AM
Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.



A lot of your posts are well thought, constructive opinions and advice. Thank you

Building on that, it seems like AA is a REACTIVE company than they are innovative/ first to bring pay raises to the table. But when they do it typically is pretty solid to match competitions (especially endeavor).

So I think itís more of a matter of when, but there really isnít a way to predict that. Maybe we will see after ExpressJets new TA goes through?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pedro4President
09-29-2018, 11:21 AM
Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.

Want to know why in sure we won't get raises. In March the company had agreed to it and then AAG nixed it.

We gave up our bargaining power when we left the FO flex pay open ended and at the company discretion.

We keep having our union handing the company bandaids to fix the issues the company is creating. The company has no reason to fix the issues and let the the upgrade process be fixed by pay increases for CAs.

NoValueAviator
09-29-2018, 01:39 PM
AA's management style is all fire department. They won't throw water on anything unless it's burning.

MD-11Loader
09-29-2018, 01:45 PM
The profit margins at AAG are decreasing quarterly and we are filling classes. There is ZERO incentive for them to increase pay.

BigZ
09-29-2018, 02:14 PM
Airline staffing is subject to inertia.
Remember how DECs bonus took a few months to start seeing current numbers in classes? And even at that, I believe that the company would want to see 50% more DECs each class.
Same with the FO classes, it will take a few months of major competition offering higher pay for people to stop coming here. Yes, flow is a marketing tool that works to an extent, but pay and QoL are important.
Talking about pay now is cheaper in the long run than scrambling when the classes start going unfilled. Lose the "there's no incentive" mindset. There is. Would it be higher should ual/dal announce flow? Definitely.
But waiting to see if the flow alone keeps the airline staffed is a gamble. I doubt it AAG would rely on gambling.
I believe that with the reserve times where they are in some of the bases/equipment, we are likely to see 12 day min off and other improvements before the pay goes up, but it will go up regardless.

EnyFlyr
09-29-2018, 03:13 PM
Airline staffing is subject to inertia.
Remember how DECs bonus took a few months to start seeing current numbers in classes? And even at that, I believe that the company would want to see 50% more DECs each class.
Same with the FO classes, it will take a few months of major competition offering higher pay for people to stop coming here. Yes, flow is a marketing tool that works to an extent, but pay and QoL are important.


100% besides I dont think flow is going to be much of an insentive in the near future. Alaska airlines is already removing the college degree requirement, would like to see what happens with other majors

chrisreedrules
09-30-2018, 02:17 AM
100% besides I dont think flow is going to be much of an insentive in the near future. Alaska airlines is already removing the college degree requirement, would like to see what happens with other majors

I know of a guy hired at Southwest recently without his degree. The degree requirement is only reflective of how much or how little the majors and legacies need pilots. If they have less apps they lower the requirement etc.

And as for raises at the WOs, I wouldnít count on it unless classes start going unfilled and/or attrition becomes unsustainable. AAG is smart, theyíve invested the money and now have effective programs in place to secure a pilot supply for their regionals so I would not expect classes to go unfilled.

Not to mention AAG is facing some stiff financial headwinds. When the economy hits its financial hiccup eventually AAG is not as well positioned to weather it as say Delta and UA. That doesnít mean that we are at any real risk of furlough, but it could mean increased stagnation. Luckily with the retirements AA faces I donít think they can stop classes. Either way itís hard for leadership to justify raises for regional pilots to the BOD when profits are falling and classes are filled. Simple as that.

E175 Driver
09-30-2018, 04:34 AM
Who wants raises at the regionals when EVERY MAJOR is hiring?

bh539
09-30-2018, 05:58 AM
Who wants raises at the regionals when EVERY MAJOR is hiring?

I didn't realize you had to pick one or the other

Tyrion
09-30-2018, 06:46 AM
Who wants raises at the regionals when EVERY MAJOR is hiring?

Everyone cashing checks from regionals while waiting for majors to call.

E175 Driver
09-30-2018, 11:20 AM
Everyone cashing checks from regionals while waiting for majors to call.

Remember, Regionals are a stepping stone. 1-5yrs top. Not 15-30yrs.:rolleyes:

uavking
09-30-2018, 11:36 AM
Remember, Regionals are a stepping stone. 1-5yrs top. Not 15-30yrs.:rolleyes:

You really have either a short memory or no fundamental understanding of how this industry has worked historically, eh? One should always operate under the assumption that, at any time, external forces out of your control will stop movement. Go ask the 10+ year guys how long they expected to be at Eagle, and why they are still here. Go ask an XJT guy about the trajectory of their company, including getting abused by SkyWest. As professionals we should always be trying to get better terms. Anything less, as you suggest, sells the profession short. Things to ponder out there in NCE land...

PilotPete4You
09-30-2018, 11:47 AM
One union seniority list, one master pay list. Anything else is a concession. Thereís no reason a 5 year Eagle CA is a 1st year SkyWest CA. Plumbers have this crap figured out better than we do.

Being married to your airline is the root problem.

in2deep
09-30-2018, 12:02 PM
You really have either a short memory or no fundamental understanding of how this industry has worked historically, eh? One should always operate under the assumption that, at any time, external forces out of your control will stop movement. Go ask the 10+ year guys how long they expected to be at Eagle, and why they are still here. Go ask an XJT guy about the trajectory of their company, including getting abused by SkyWest. As professionals we should always be trying to get better terms. Anything less, as you suggest, sells the profession short. Things to ponder out there in NCE land...

Exactly. Lets stop lowering our expectations by telling the company what they want to hear. This sh!t doesnít happen passively.

E175 Driver
09-30-2018, 02:23 PM
You really have either a short memory or no fundamental understanding of how this industry has worked historically, eh? One should always operate under the assumption that, at any time, external forces out of your control will stop movement. Go ask the 10+ year guys how long they expected to be at Eagle, and why they are still here. Go ask an XJT guy about the trajectory of their company, including getting abused by SkyWest. As professionals we should always be trying to get better terms. Anything less, as you suggest, sells the profession short. Things to ponder out there in NCE land...

Yeah, Nothing will stop the movement now with all the retirements now. Nothing. Why raise the pay here? I dont know about you, but Im NOT planning on being here in 2 yrs. Ill be either at a Major or worse at a LCC. But at a regional? Pluhlease.........

pitchattitude
09-30-2018, 03:44 PM
Yeah, Nothing will stop the movement now with all the retirements now. Nothing. Why raise the pay here? I dont know about you, but Im NOT planning on being here in 2 yrs. Ill be either at a Major or worse at a LCC. But at a regional? Pluhlease.........

I donít know why with your shining personality you are even still here. I mean that alone should have gotten you hired at a major without even lowering yourself to work at a regional.

But why try to get a living wage for someone that is just starting out? Oh, thatís right, itís only about you.

bigtime209
09-30-2018, 03:51 PM
I donít know why with your shining personality you are even still here. I mean that alone should have gotten you hired at a major without even lowering yourself to work at a regional.

But why try to get a living wage for someone that is just starting out? Oh, thatís right, itís only about you.

For anyone relatively new to the forum, the 175 driver guy is just the resident troll that comes and goes around here and posts all kinds of nonsense just to get a rise out of people and rustle feathers. Best to just ignore.

PilotPete4You
10-12-2018, 05:01 AM
We are in the very bottom tier of the regional industry compensation group. Mesa, GoJet, Compass, and Envoy all in bed together.

Endeavor, Republic, and soon to be SkyWest are leading the pack.

havick206
10-12-2018, 06:12 AM
Pay will come up eventually, it will simply be a latency between the other carriers (Skywest, xjt etc) increasing their rates and resulting in new hires going their instead.

Itís just a numbers game. I would guess something around 6-8 months or so after xjt and Skywest rates go up.

Republic and edv werenít enough to take new hires away but xjt and Skywest have different base options which will hurt ENY recruiting eventually

Ijustlikeflying
10-12-2018, 07:46 AM
Pay will come up eventually, it will simply be a latency between the other carriers (Skywest, xjt etc) increasing their rates and resulting in new hires going their instead.

Itís just a numbers game. I would guess something around 6-8 months or so after xjt and Skywest rates go up.

Republic and edv werenít enough to take new hires away but xjt and Skywest have different base options which will hurt ENY recruiting eventually

What are the new Xjet and Skywest rates?

Jet Jockey 00
10-12-2018, 07:49 AM
What are the new Xjet and Skywest rates?

IIRC xjet 50 seat CA is 72 plus 8k bonus eff. 80$
about 13-15k more which is quite significant.

SilentLurker
10-12-2018, 08:07 AM
IIRC xjet 50 seat CA is 72 plus 8k bonus eff. 80$

about 13-15k more which is quite significant.


IIRC Republic gave 1st set of raises LBFO (last Best final Offer), pilot Group said no thanks, all before bankruptcy,. Then RPA came back to the table, deal was made... All before BK... with results from TA not to be touched during BK.

That was their first set of raise.... then another RPA Mgmt offered TA with raises came out after Endeavorís DEC17 TA passage.

2 raises in the past 2-2.5yrs for RPA. Nothing is impossible. People publicly doubt the possibility even before a BK. The real question is it still possible even in this environment? A lot has changed in 2 years.

PilotPete4You
10-12-2018, 10:22 AM
Looks like we won the race down, but are lagging on the race back up.

NoValueAviator
10-12-2018, 11:00 AM
I don't see how this doesn't concern even the swaggering E175 Drivers amongst us with a golden ticket to their pick of the majors in 1.5 years. The less of a discount they get on us at the regionals, the less incentive they have to maroon us here for as long as possible, and the faster they'll let us have real jobs with real pay, instead of real jobs with intern pay.

Weekendwarrior2
10-13-2018, 07:48 AM
For any LCA on here that donít mind posting. What does your average mid month/end of month take home look like, also would you say itís affected QOL at all with being overworked?

Virga show
10-13-2018, 10:23 AM
For any LCA on here that donít mind posting. What does your average mid month/end of month take home look like, also would you say itís affected QOL at all with being overworked?

Itís 2,000 extra a month. If you do all IOE and line checks.