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View Full Version : Best airplanes to build time in


FullFlaps
09-29-2018, 08:56 AM
After flight training I am thinking about buying an aircraft to build time while I also instruct.

I am looking for something comfortable that I can also take on trips and air conditioning while keeping cost per hour down. Open to either single engine or multi engine. Will most likely be splitting ownership with 1 or 2 others.

Just wanted to hear people's opinions and why.


Pilsung
09-29-2018, 09:48 AM
Cri-cri...

bnkangle
09-29-2018, 09:55 AM
I am looking for something comfortable...and air conditioning while keeping cost per hour down.



I'm looking for some ocean front property in Arizona.

Do you think you won't get enough time instructing? I thought there was a CFI shortage.


Excargodog
09-29-2018, 10:30 AM
[air conditioning] and [keeping cost per hour down] are the null set.

Their Venn Diagrams simply do not intersect. At all.

Multi engine is nearly as bad. And buying an aircraft - especially a multi engine aircraft - with one or two close friends is an excellent way to lose one or two close friends.

Just saying...:rolleyes:

JamesNoBrakes
09-29-2018, 10:51 AM
Fly higher=air conditioning.

CaseTractor
09-29-2018, 10:55 AM
air conditioning is a bear to maintain and is heavy. A multi is very expensive to maintain as well. I guess it depends how deep your pockets are and what type of time you need.

Anything more than a 70's era fixed gear single gets more expensive exponentially.

Oh and insurance; compare a multi to a fixed gear single, the difference is amazing.

TiredSoul
09-29-2018, 03:25 PM
Donít bother, once you start flight instruction youíll understand why.

JohnBurke
09-29-2018, 03:37 PM
I am looking for something comfortable that I can also take on trips and air conditioning while keeping cost per hour down. Open to either single engine or multi engine. Will most likely be splitting ownership with 1 or 2 others.

Just wanted to hear people's opinions and why.

If you want to keep the costs down, owning an airplane may not be your best choice.

If you want to build hours, buy a good pen. If you want to build experience, get a job.

Air conditioning? Really?

rickair7777
09-29-2018, 05:31 PM
Newer Seminoles can be had with air conditioning. And they are quite affordable compared to some other comfortable planes, such as cabin-class bizjets.

Excargodog
09-29-2018, 06:15 PM
Newer Seminoles can be had with air conditioning. And they are quite affordable compared to some other comfortable planes, such as cabin-class bizjets.

Which are VERY affordable - compared to Air Force One.

I guess it depends on the balance in your checking account....:rolleyes:

TiredSoul
09-29-2018, 09:03 PM
The best airplanes to build time in are the ones paid for by somebody else.

https://i.imgur.com/ekQpV59.gif?noredirect

JohnBurke
09-30-2018, 01:51 AM
The best airplanes to build time in are the ones paid for by somebody else.



Which would be Air Force One.

deftone
09-30-2018, 04:04 PM
I bought my Rans S-14 for $5500 and build time at 3 gal per hour. Cheapest timebuilding possible for me. Best career move I ever made. I plan on building to 500hrs then applying at the usual places. With the Rotax 912 I should be able to make my 5k back on the investment and use that to pay for my multi.

TaylorPilot
10-02-2018, 06:04 PM
If you want to build hours, buy a good pen. If you want to build experience, get a job.

Air conditioning? Really?

Do what? LOL

Also, what is wrong with wanting AC. I live in south Texas and flying without AC is MISERABLE. Your entire shirt is soaked through before you even get taxied to the run up area.

I would personally get a 172. Throw a waas 430, dual g5s and one of those electric AC units. You'd probably be into it for 115 to 130k more than a worn out old one, but it would be the queen of the fleet at the school you want to instruct through. I'd personally (and everyone else I ask) would pay $15 more an hour to turn on that AC.

Aircraft Electric Air Conditioning, ThermaCool | Kelly Aerospace Thermal Systems (http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermacool-aircraft-air-conditioning.html)

At least down here, having AC changes the way you utilize your airplane. I would not own one that didn't either have one, or atleast have a good option to install one.

misterpretzel
10-02-2018, 07:08 PM
Do what? LOL

Also, what is wrong with wanting AC. I live in south Texas and flying without AC is MISERABLE. Your entire shirt is soaked through before you even get taxied to the run up area.

I would personally get a 172. Throw a waas 430, dual g5s and one of those electric AC units. You'd probably be into it for 115 to 130k more than a worn out old one, but it would be the queen of the fleet at the school you want to instruct through. I'd personally (and everyone else I ask) would pay $15 more an hour to turn on that AC.

Aircraft Electric Air Conditioning, ThermaCool | Kelly Aerospace Thermal Systems (http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermacool-aircraft-air-conditioning.html)

At least down here, having AC changes the way you utilize your airplane. I would not own one that didn't either have one, or atleast have a good option to install one.Holy crap that would have been insanely nice to have when I visited Phoenix...

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

TomF
10-02-2018, 08:47 PM
After flight training I am thinking about buying an aircraft to build time while I also instruct.

I am looking for something comfortable that I can also take on trips and air conditioning while keeping cost per hour down. Open to either single engine or multi engine. Will most likely be splitting ownership with 1 or 2 others.

Just wanted to hear people's opinions and why.

I recently bought a Cherokee 140 with a partner and itís a great way of time building and much better than renting through your 250 hours to get to your commercial license. There are a lot of costs (maintenance/inspections) but if you fly often itís well worth it. If you can find a partner to buy with or someone who flys with you and helps pay for gas thatís a plus. Once I get my CFI soon I plan on selling it. The upcoming ADSB requirement is something youíll have to take a look at because thatís not cheap :/

TiredSoul
10-02-2018, 09:18 PM
Hereís my argument in favor of working through your hours rather then private owner flying - record keeping.

Every hour flown at a flightschool as CFI or flown as a CPL SE pilot is kept track of at your employer.
Or should be anyway.

So Iím at an interview with my privately flown 500 hrs. Who can ever prove theyíve actually flown that time vs just padding your logbook at home?
CFII and MEI time is some of the most valuable time you can get.
Because it TEACHES you about flying.
Unless youíre very disciplined with yourself and making your flights mean something itís just drilling holes in the sky.

As HR I would be hesitant if I only see the same type & tailnumber and weíve got a $2-3M airplane on the ramp.
And I donít want to see 5-6 flightschools in 12 months either.

Call me crazy but if Iím to employ you and pay for your training Iíd want a little more certainty about your skills and your personality aka youíve actually held a job in aviation.
And Iíd show you the door once Iíve looked up this:

http://images.auction123.com/a5ac1de2-32a4-4118-a902-e193f1a80676/ID_414782483/01.jpg?wtrmk800


But hey thatís just me and my opinion.

FullFlaps
10-10-2018, 05:28 PM
Thanks all. I've been looking at a few platforms and I am lucky enough to be able to afford a nice airplane with air conditioning but given the mission I probably should just suck it up for a bit.

I intend on working as a cfi and the school I would most likely teach at averages 80 to 100 flight hours a month.

I wanted an aircraft for me personally so that I could still fly and actually enjoy it versus being work all the time while also building hours. I was thinking a cirrus or Cessna 310 but I think I should be a little more practical with a time builder and maybe splurge on something nice after I get my hours.

deftone
10-10-2018, 08:50 PM
Hereís my argument in favor of working through your hours rather then private owner flying - record keeping.

Every hour flown at a flightschool as CFI or flown as a CPL SE pilot is kept track of at your employer.
Or should be anyway.

So Iím at an interview with my privately flown 500 hrs. Who can ever prove theyíve actually flown that time vs just padding your logbook at home?
CFII and MEI time is some of the most valuable time you can get.
Because it TEACHES you about flying.
Unless youíre very disciplined with yourself and making your flights mean something itís just drilling holes in the sky.

As HR I would be hesitant if I only see the same type & tailnumber and weíve got a $2-3M airplane on the ramp.
And I donít want to see 5-6 flightschools in 12 months either.

Call me crazy but if Iím to employ you and pay for your training Iíd want a little more certainty about your skills and your personality aka youíve actually held a job in aviation.
And Iíd show you the door once Iíve looked up this:

http://images.auction123.com/a5ac1de2-32a4-4118-a902-e193f1a80676/ID_414782483/01.jpg?wtrmk800


But hey thatís just me and my opinion.


Im assuming thats aimed at me since that is the same type of bird I have, :D

I have a few hundred 172 hours and around 40 in PA-28s. Still fly P&P missions in a Club 172 so Its not like Im rocking up to a job interview with all my hours in one type.

For what its worth, all of the hours in my Rans were spent on XC "missions" that I took extensive photographs of and wrote a blog entry for each visit. No boring holes in the sky. For example next up is a trip from my home field in South Louisiana to First Flight. A quite significant XC flight regardless of what piston single it is.

TiredSoul
10-10-2018, 09:53 PM
Youíre missing the point...a little.
Iím not disputing that your Ďtype of flyingí isnít cool or exciting or fun.
Itís great to noodle around at 1000í with nothing but a paper chart.
Iím questioning the usefulness as far as a professional career is concerned.

See Iím thinking hood time and 1000 instrument approaches till you can do a partial panel approach in your sleep.
Stick and rudder skills still have a place but not at the expense of everything else.
The sim at an airline is not the place to find out.

JohnBurke
10-10-2018, 10:28 PM
Also, what is wrong with wanting AC.

Nothing at all. Nothing wrong with wanting three extra engines, turbine power an FMS, cruise capable above weather, a lavatory, catering, flight attendants, snooze quarters, and a pet monkey, either.

You're aware that the altimeter functions as a cockpit temperature control, right?

I live in south Texas and flying without AC is MISERABLE. Your entire shirt is soaked through before you even get taxied to the run up area.


Don't be a wimp.

Try doing that in a greenhouse canopy, a flight suit over clothing, boots, gloves, and a helmet, when it's 120 in the shade.

Changes the way you use the aircraft...right...

It does, if one is a wimp.

Of course you may have the option to climb a few thousand feet. Problem solved.

If you happen to fly a cub or tailorcraft...open the door or window.

TaylorPilot
10-11-2018, 01:30 PM
Nothing at all. Nothing wrong with wanting three extra engines, turbine power an FMS, cruise capable above weather, a lavatory, catering, flight attendants, snooze quarters, and a pet monkey, either.

You're aware that the altimeter functions as a cockpit temperature control, right?



Don't be a wimp.

Try doing that in a greenhouse canopy, a flight suit over clothing, boots, gloves, and a helmet, when it's 120 in the shade.

Changes the way you use the aircraft...right...

It does, if one is a wimp.

Of course you may have the option to climb a few thousand feet. Problem solved.

If you happen to fly a cub or tailorcraft...open the door or window.

What a tough guy, I wish I was half the man you are.....You really like to get on here and troll everyone...just out of curiosity, how tall are you? Because just based on the way you act on here, I imagine you have to sit on a phone book to see over the dash of your hot uncomfortable airplane....

Maybe to him (and me for that matter) the willingness to sweat your balls off is not the measure of how manly you are. If he is going to spend the equivalent of a nice sized house note on an airplane every month, being comfortable when using that plane isn't wimpy..its common sense. As far as climbing a few thousand feet, obviously you have never flown in Houston Texas in July. Your shirt is literally soaked through before you get through your run-up, and it doesn't dry till you land, get in your car and turn the AC on full blast. Maybe he has a wife who hates flying in a hot airplane and says she would rather drive 3 times longer than sweat in a non air conditioned airplane. Maybe he would like to fly somewhere and go have a nice dinner or go see someone, and smelling like a wet dog when he gets there isn't too appealing. Maybe he wants to go meet with a client somewhere and doesn't want to have to take a change of clothes and take a shower when he gets there so he doesn't smell homeless. Either way, and I'd imagine most of the people on this forum would agree that if YOU don't have anything constructive to add, maybe you should just keep your mouth shut...

FullFlaps
10-11-2018, 03:05 PM
Nothing at all. Nothing wrong with wanting three extra engines, turbine power an FMS, cruise capable above weather, a lavatory, catering, flight attendants, snooze quarters, and a pet monkey, either.

You're aware that the altimeter functions as a cockpit temperature control, right?



Don't be a wimp.

Try doing that in a greenhouse canopy, a flight suit over clothing, boots, gloves, and a helmet, when it's 120 in the shade.

Changes the way you use the aircraft...right...

It does, if one is a wimp.

Of course you may have the option to climb a few thousand feet. Problem solved.

If you happen to fly a cub or tailorcraft...open the door or window.

Thank you for your service (if you did serve.)

Maybe... Just maybe I also served but on the ground.

Maybe.... I just don't want to be hot ever ever again if I don't have to because I know what it's like to sweat week in week out month in month out year in year out with 120 to 160 pounds of equipment and munitions in 130 degree heat dodging ied's snipers mortars and everything else.

Maybe.... I have been fortunate enough in life to be able to treat myself if I so choose.

Those that continually cut down (troll) others usually are not happy with themselves. Ex-service members that do as such (in my experience) have a source of regret. Either they did not perform as needed when it mattered or an event that manifests itself as survivors guilt or a derivation thereof. We all have moments of weakness. I hope you find contentment in the rest of your service and hopefully you brought up a few people that can carry on the torch.

misterpretzel
10-11-2018, 08:20 PM
Thank you for your service (if you did serve.)

Maybe... Just maybe I also served but on the ground.

Maybe.... I just don't want to be hot ever ever again if I don't have to because I know what it's like to sweat week in week out month in month out year in year out with 120 to 160 pounds of equipment and munitions in 130 degree heat dodging ied's snipers mortars and everything else.

Maybe.... I have been fortunate enough in life to be able to treat myself if I so choose.

Those that continually cut down (troll) others usually are not happy with themselves. Ex-service members that do as such (in my experience) have a source of regret. Either they did not perform as needed when it mattered or an event that manifests itself as survivors guilt or a derivation thereof. We all have moments of weakness. I hope you find contentment in the rest of your service and hopefully you brought up a few people that can carry on the torch.Hey man if you want ac in your plane, then dammit get ac in your plane. It's your money.

JB is one of those "back in my day we didn't have blah blah" kinds of dudes where if you don't suffer then you're a phony. He wishes he could afford a plane with ac.

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deftone
10-11-2018, 10:05 PM
Youíre missing the point...a little.
Iím not disputing that your Ďtype of flyingí isnít cool or exciting or fun.
Itís great to noodle around at 1000í with nothing but a paper chart.
Iím questioning the usefulness as far as a professional career is concerned.

See Iím thinking hood time and 1000 instrument approaches till you can do a partial panel approach in your sleep.
Stick and rudder skills still have a place but not at the expense of everything else.
The sim at an airline is not the place to find out.


I understand your point, I would be lying if I said it didnt cross my mind when I was trying to figure this all out. My intended career path hopefully takes me initially to AK (where I have worked previously and have quite a few contacts). So hopefully my type of flying wont be too much of an issue making that first step on the career ladder.

My situation with taking the first step in an Aviation Career is a little different than most in that I have a wife and a couple of kiddos to think about. Jumping into a survey gig that has me gone for 4 months straight just isnt going to happen, so many of the low time gigs are just not an option to me. Pipeline Patrol is another option that I have been looking at but I have no contacts (although have worked in Oil&Gas/Pipelines for 15years on the ground)

JohnBurke
10-11-2018, 10:40 PM
blah blah blah

What might you have said, had you been able to contribute to the thread in some meaningful way?

TiredSoul
10-11-2018, 11:37 PM
deftone, all the power to you.
We all have to do it the way we can and not the way we want.
It takes whatever it takes.
My opinion wasnít intended as a personal attack.
More like...opionated advice.
So continue to do what you need to do.

misterpretzel
10-12-2018, 08:22 AM
What might you have said, had you been able to contribute to the thread in some meaningful way?Because belittling someone for wanting AC in their plane is a meaningful contribution...

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CaptainYoda
10-12-2018, 01:06 PM
My $.02


Buy a straight tail C-172 (fewest AD's)
Buy a big cooler, add some ductwork, a 12 or 24v fan, then add ice.



Cheap plane, cheap A/C


Fly it at 45-55% power, log hobbs, bring a friend as a safety pilot and do lots of simulated IFR.



Fly it at 6,500-9,500 to keep cooler.

TaylorPilot
10-12-2018, 02:29 PM
What might you have said, had you been able to contribute to the thread in some meaningful way?

I did give him a link to a popular option for installing an after market air conditioned to 172 and 182s. But even if I hadn't, I didn't call him names or question his manhood for not thinking the exact same way I do. Like I said, you seem to enjoy belittling people on this site who don't agree with you. Like the OP suggested, I think it says more about you that it does about us.

joepilot
10-12-2018, 09:50 PM
A high wing Cessna such as a 152, 172, or 182 have windows that can be opened in flight. A bit breezy and noisy, and not a good idea if you have a paper chart open, but it does help on those summer Arizona afternoons.

Joe

misterpretzel
10-12-2018, 10:57 PM
A high wing Cessna such as a 152, 172, or 182 have windows that can be opened in flight. A bit breezy and noisy, and not a good idea if you have a paper chart open, but it does help on those summer Arizona afternoons.

JoeAnd definitely don't try to puke out an open window.

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FullFlaps
10-15-2018, 06:56 AM
My $.02


Buy a straight tail C-172 (fewest AD's)
Buy a big cooler, add some ductwork, a 12 or 24v fan, then add ice.



Cheap plane, cheap A/C


Fly it at 45-55% power, log hobbs, bring a friend as a safety pilot and do lots of simulated IFR.



Fly it at 6,500-9,500 to keep cooler.

I think you guys are right. I just need something to build hours in. I can buy a nice toy for myself after.

Has anyone tried building time overseas and then coming back?

i.e. getting to 1,500 hours in europe south america or asia? Which FAR do I have to look up to see if flying as an FO is xyz country will transfer?

JohnBurke
10-15-2018, 01:58 PM
Other countries come to the USA to "build time" and get certification, not the other way around.

Do you have any idea what it costs to fly in other countries?

joepilot
10-16-2018, 12:25 AM
And definitely don't try to puke out an open window.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

Actually, it does work. Just be sure that the students head is as far out and back as possible, and turned to the rear. Remove any glasses first, or they will depart the airplane.

You will still have to clean the tail, but that is much easier than cleaning the interior.

Joe

TiredSoul
10-16-2018, 02:16 AM
Has anyone tried building time overseas and then coming back?

i.e. getting to 1,500 hours in europe south america or asia? Which FAR do I have to look up to see if flying as an FO is xyz country will transfer?

1. What makes you think youíre eligible for hire?
2. What makes you think youíre eligible for a work permit?

FullFlaps
10-16-2018, 05:09 AM
1. What makes you think youíre eligible for hire?
2. What makes you think youíre eligible for a work permit?

I'm a citizen boring and raised in the US.

As far a eligibility that's what I'm asking. If FO time overseas is transferable and marketable to regionals or legacy airlines.

TiredSoul
10-16-2018, 05:25 AM
1. What makes you think youíre eligible for hire outside of the United States ?
2. What makes you think youíre eligible for a work permit overseas ?

Adjusted for the hard of hearing.

rickair7777
10-16-2018, 05:27 AM
I'm a citizen boring and raised in the US.

As far a eligibility that's what I'm asking. If FO time overseas is transferable and marketable to regionals or legacy airlines.

Yes. The flight time is transferable, but you'll want to keep good records. Try to get records from the company in addition to your own logbooks. Keep all paystubs and other docs showing you worked there. Regionals won't likely care, but majors will need to feel comfortable that the time is legit, and PRIA probably won't help with over-seas employers.

What's not transferable is some flight training. That requires an "authorized instructor" which means an FAA-designated instructor. So you probably need to get all of your ratings in the US (cheaper than trying to find a US CFI overseas). Once that's done, you can build time overseas, but read the part 61 aeronautical experience requirements to ensure that you'll meet all ATP requirements.

Read Far 1.1 and 61.1 for definitions.

dera
10-16-2018, 07:27 AM
And remember, time abroad does not count as 121 time towards an upgrade in the US.

JohnBurke
10-16-2018, 07:34 AM
Time abroad counts toward upgrade if it's while in the employ of a 121 or 135 operator.

TiredSoul
10-20-2018, 12:37 PM
Time abroad counts toward upgrade if it's while in the employ of a US based 121 or 135 operator.
Fixed that for ya

PRS Guitars
10-20-2018, 02:02 PM
After I became a professional pilot (CFI) I pretty much hated paying to fly. Youíll understand once youíre there. Why pay to do it, when you can get someone else to pay for the plane and pay you for your time.

I only payed to fly myself, to get my CFII, and split some multi, this was back when you needed 100 multi to get to a regional. I also took my wife up once to fly some aerobatics, and took 1 trip to visit my in-laws. Other than that, I let the students pay. Unless you have some serious savings or a productive wife, most CFIís canít afford aircraft ownership.



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