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View Full Version : Flow: Changes - Flow back


fenix1
10-01-2018, 01:18 AM
What changes to flow agreements are foreseen/guessed for the next contract for ENV, PDT & PSA pilots? Is even more opportunity for WO management to meter flow due to Ďoperational necessityí likely?? Or will things go the other way & the flow become more accommodating to the WOís pilot groups in order to suppress direct compensation without hurting recruiting at the WOís??

As I understand it now (and please correct me if Iím full of horned bovine excrement...), only ENV pilots (rather than all 3 WOís) have a provision that enables movement back to ENV from mainline if the industry goes belly up. Is it likely that the PSA & PDT pilot groups gain this same ability in their next contracts? Or will this likely remain unique to ENV for some reason?

I have zero agenda in asking these questions - Iím just trying to assess the real value of the flow as I continue to evaluate which regional I hope to fly for. I appreciate your thoughts here and thanks to those good enough to respond meaningfully.


PilotPete4You
10-01-2018, 03:35 AM
ANY promise made in this industry 6+ years out is a speculation at best. Thereís this group called ďprotected pilotsĒ that are flowing now, so guess what that makes all of us that arenít in the group?

Go to a bank and cash in these big promises youíre being told, see how that goes.

Flow should be your worst-case scenario, and just one piece of your career advancement strategy.

chrisreedrules
10-01-2018, 04:04 AM
Given the number of mandatory retirements at AA (over 75% of the current seniority list by 2032) I doubt very seriously that they would waste any negotiating capital on flow-back agreements.


bigtime209
10-01-2018, 04:16 AM
What changes to flow agreements are foreseen/guessed for the next contract for ENV, PDT & PSA pilots? Is even more opportunity for WO management to meter flow due to Ďoperational necessityí likely?? Or will things go the other way & the flow become more accommodating to the WOís pilot groups in order to suppress direct compensation without hurting recruiting at the WOís??

As I understand it now (and please correct me if Iím full of horned bovine excrement...), only ENV pilots (rather than all 3 WOís) have a provision that enables movement back to ENV from mainline if the industry goes belly up. Is it likely that the PSA & PDT pilot groups gain this same ability in their next contracts? Or will this likely remain unique to ENV for some reason?

I have zero agenda in asking these questions - Iím just trying to assess the real value of the flow as I continue to evaluate which regional I hope to fly for. I appreciate your thoughts here and thanks to those good enough to respond meaningfully.

None of the 3 have this.

TheRaven
10-01-2018, 04:49 AM
None of the 3 have this.

I think Piedmont has a clause that you can return if you fail out of training.....with your previous seniority/longevity.

bigtime209
10-01-2018, 07:50 AM
I think Piedmont has a clause that you can return if you fail out of training.....with your previous seniority/longevity.

They do. It's basically a short leave of abscence. I wanna say 90 days? Anything happens during that period you can go back to PDT. But I believe the guy was referring to a flow back kind of setup- i.e. if AA furloughs sometime down the line, there will be a CA seat waiting for you back at the WO.

fenix1
10-02-2018, 06:14 PM
Yes, thatís what I was referring to. Eagle used to have flow back for sure and Iíd been told previously (by an ENV CA) that ENV still did; are we sure none of the 3 do currently?

Big picture, things look great, but stuff will inevitably hit the fan at some point (nature of the beast) and itís naive to pretend otherwise, right?

They do. It's basically a short leave of abscence. I wanna say 90 days? Anything happens during that period you can go back to PDT. But I believe the guy was referring to a flow back kind of setup- i.e. if AA furloughs sometime down the line, there will be a CA seat waiting for you back at the WO.

fenix1
10-02-2018, 06:18 PM
Anything that hasnít been officially announced & executed is speculation - itís the airlines & business. Since APC largely exists to share speculation (not many official announcements from airlines here...), do YOU have any speculative thoughts as to whether contractual flow agreements will likely change to further restrict pilots from moving onto mainline (at WOís discretion) or whether the flow will be sweetened on paper in lieu of keeping up with compensation?

ANY promise made in this industry 6+ years out is a speculation at best. Thereís this group called ďprotected pilotsĒ that are flowing now, so guess what that makes all of us that arenít in the group?

Go to a bank and cash in these big promises youíre being told, see how that goes.

Flow should be your worst-case scenario, and just one piece of your career advancement strategy.

fenix1
10-02-2018, 06:22 PM
Pretty sure itís already in place at ENV.

Given the number of mandatory retirements at AA (over 75% of the current seniority list by 2032) I doubt very seriously that they would waste any negotiating capital on flow-back agreements.

Jersdawg
10-02-2018, 06:24 PM
Pretty sure itís already in place at ENV.

It is not.

Filler.

bigtime209
10-02-2018, 06:58 PM
Pretty sure itís already in place at ENV.

Itís not. Itís a long story from roughly 20 years ago when there were AA pilots that got furloughed after 9/11 that were flow backs to Eagle. That was part of the deal that allowed AMR to place jets at Eagle. That is long gone now. No flow back provisions in place today.

DanRoman
10-02-2018, 08:13 PM
Itís not. Itís a long story from roughly 20 years ago when there were AA pilots that got furloughed after 9/11 that were flow backs to Eagle. That was part of the deal that allowed AMR to place jets at Eagle. That is long gone now. No flow back provisions in place today.

Often referred to as ďJets for JobsĒ.

fenix1
10-03-2018, 08:58 PM
Thanks a lot for straightening me out regarding flow back (sounds like I misunderstood/miscommunicated somehow).

So what is perceived to be most likely ahead for the flow in next round of contract negotiations or other discussions of substance? (Less upward movement & harder to flow?? Or more upward movement & easier to flow in order to minimize WOís compensation??)

chrisreedrules
10-03-2018, 11:28 PM
Thanks a lot for straightening me out regarding flow back (sounds like I misunderstood/miscommunicated somehow).

So what is perceived to be most likely ahead for the flow in next round of contract negotiations or other discussions of substance? (Less upward movement & harder to flow?? Or more upward movement & easier to flow in order to minimize WOís compensation??)

I canít speak for Piedmont or Envoy but I believe the flow at PSA is likely to increase. Mainly because our flow language lags our peer airlines and I believe that the company will use increased flow as a carrot in contractual negotiations in lieu of pay raises.

E175 Driver
10-04-2018, 03:41 AM
I canít speak for Piedmont or Envoy but I believe the flow at PSA is likely to increase. Mainly because our flow language lags our peer airlines and I believe that the company will use increased flow as a carrot in contractual negotiations in lieu of pay raises.

And once again you guys will vote yes.

MD-11Loader
10-04-2018, 03:45 AM
I canít speak for Piedmont or Envoy but I believe the flow at PSA is likely to increase. Mainly because our flow language lags our peer airlines and I believe that the company will use increased flow as a carrot in contractual negotiations in lieu of pay raises.

Iím sure your group will be happy to give up SAP and any other positive QOL aspects of your contract for more flow and a fleet of 175ís.

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 04:05 AM
Iím sure your group will be happy to give up SAP and any other positive QOL aspects of your contract for more flow and a fleet of 175ís.

That isnít an untrue statement for some here. As it wouldnít be an untrue statement for some at any airline.

For me there are some very specific things that would need to be addressed in order for me to vote Yes on a new TA. If any one of them isnít there then I vote no regardless of flow potentially increasing.

For me increasing the flow isn't much of a carrot. Even a drastic increase wouldnít really affect my time to AA in an incredibly appreciable amount because for every increase in the flow less pilots above me leave.

If the company wants me to give up my SAP, theyíre going to have to both pay me and make my quality of life better. And I donít think they see a reason to pay us more money right now so :o

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 04:11 AM
And once again you guys will vote yes.

Perhaps? This hypothetical TA is rumored to not even be released until summer 2019 at the earliest. If pilots feel like it addresses their wants and needs then they will vote Yes. If not, then no.

So if youíre implying that the pilot group at PSA will vote yes because thatís the way they voted for contract 2013 I think thatís a mischaracterization. Easily half of the current pilot group has no clue about the labor relations history here. And after 2018 ends there will be less than 100 pilots on property who even had the opportunity to vote on contract 2013. Of which many of lifers still here that I know of say they voted No on it.

You werenít even a clever troll on APC back in 2013. And I wasnít flying 121. This industry has changed a lot.

Cyio
10-05-2018, 05:03 AM
Perhaps? This hypothetical TA is rumored to not even be released until summer 2019 at the earliest. If pilots feel like it addresses their wants and needs then they will vote Yes. If not, then no.

So if youíre implying that the pilot group at PSA will vote yes because thatís the way they voted for contract 2013 I think thatís a mischaracterization. Easily half of the current pilot group has no clue about the labor relations history here. And after 2018 ends there will be less than 100 pilots on property who even had the opportunity to vote on contract 2013. Of which many of lifers still here that I know of say they voted No on it.

You werenít even a clever troll on APC back in 2013. And I wasnít flying 121. This industry has changed a lot.
Yeah I agree. Iím an Envoy pilot but I think the hate towards PSA should end. Virtually none of their current group were even flying than lol let alone involved in that horrible decision. This would be like blaming my uncle for something our ancestors did 100 years ago, he had no part in it other than sharing a name.

What you guys do going forward however is yours to own.

E175 Driver
10-05-2018, 05:17 AM
Perhaps? This hypothetical TA is rumored to not even be released until summer 2019 at the earliest. If pilots feel like it addresses their wants and needs then they will vote Yes. If not, then no.

So if youíre implying that the pilot group at PSA will vote yes because thatís the way they voted for contract 2013 I think thatís a mischaracterization. Easily half of the current pilot group has no clue about the labor relations history here. And after 2018 ends there will be less than 100 pilots on property who even had the opportunity to vote on contract 2013. Of which many of lifers still here that I know of say they voted No on it.

You werenít even a clever troll on APC back in 2013. And I wasnít flying 121. This industry has changed a lot.

You're right. I wasn't here back then but the story I was told by Captains here was that PSA screwed envoy by voting yes and getting all new CRJ's.

moon
10-05-2018, 05:43 AM
Yeah I agree. Iím an Envoy pilot but I think the hate towards PSA should end. Virtually none of their current group were even flying than lol let alone involved in that horrible decision. This would be like blaming my uncle for something our ancestors did 100 years ago, he had no part in it other than sharing a name.

What you guys do going forward however is yours to own.

They may not have voted yes on a ballot but those hires in 2014 and 15 sure did vote Yes with their feet. Their actions said we support that horrible decision.

E175 Driver
10-05-2018, 05:47 AM
They may not have voted yes on a ballot but those hires in 2014 and 15 sure did vote Yes with their feet. Their actions said we support that horrible decision.

And I bet they went ahead of you on the flow to AA!

Otterbox
10-05-2018, 06:06 AM
You're right. I wasn't here back then but the story I was told by Captains here was that PSA screwed envoy by voting yes and getting all new CRJ's.

Iíd be more concerned about them being at AA and willing to vote yes to scope relief personally.

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 06:41 AM
Iíd be more concerned about them being at AA and willing to vote yes to scope relief personally.

PSA pilotís master plans have been uncovered!

:rolleyes:

...yea, you should DEFINITELY be worried about this.

Do some of you even think about what youíre saying? Itís hilariously dumb at times.

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 06:44 AM
They may not have voted yes on a ballot but those hires in 2014 and 15 sure did vote Yes with their feet. Their actions said we support that horrible decision.

I donít think that is the logic people were using when they came to PSA in 2014 and 2015.

Otterbox
10-05-2018, 06:54 AM
PSA pilotís master plans have been uncovered!

:rolleyes:

...yea, you should DEFINITELY be worried about this.

Do some of you even think about what youíre saying? Itís hilariously dumb at times.

Being more concerned about mainline pilots voting in scope relief during this next contract negotiation than something PSAs pilot group did 5 years ago is dumb? Okay, sure...

BigZ
10-05-2018, 07:12 AM
Yeah I agree. Iím an Envoy pilot but I think the hate towards PSA should end. Virtually none of their current group were even flying than lol let alone involved in that horrible decision. This would be like blaming my uncle for something our ancestors did 100 years ago, he had no part in it other than sharing a name.

What you guys do going forward however is yours to own.
Amen
Filler

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 09:11 AM
Being more concerned about mainline pilots voting in scope relief during this next contract negotiation than something PSAs pilot group did 5 years ago is dumb? Okay, sure...

Go reread the post I quoted. The poster was insinuating that PSA pilots would be in favor of scope relief.

moon
10-05-2018, 09:38 AM
Go reread the post I quoted. The poster was insinuating that PSA pilots would be in favor of scope relief.

The poster was referring to how easily members of your pilot group are swayed to benefit themselves even if it screws over other people. Those members will be flowing to AA and would vote for scope relief to benefit themselves even if it would screw over the entire industry. Your group has a history of being interested in only themselves so he or she has a point.

chrisreedrules
10-05-2018, 11:22 AM
The poster was referring to how easily members of your pilot group are swayed to benefit themselves even if it screws over other people. Those members will be flowing to AA and would vote for scope relief to benefit themselves even if it would screw over the entire industry. Your group has a history of being interested in only themselves so he or she has a point.

The yes voters are already at AA. And to my knowledge none of them are actively negotiating anything on behalf of AA pilots. And now that theyíre at AA, why would they magically start voting in concessions? As I stated above, I guess Iím just not seeing the logic in your statements.

Youíre making blanket statements about our pilot group based on pilots that arenít even here anymore. And the ones that are here are the same ones who would have just as happily gone to Envoy or Piedmont if the bases worked out in their favor. This industry is so completely different than it was 5+ years ago.

Regardless I donít care if you have disdain towards PSA or its pilots and I certainly donít blame you or any other Envoy pilot. PSAís vote hurt Envoy pilots. But those who voted for that contract are mostly all gone to mainline or going to retire shortly. Keep espousing vitriol towards current PSA pilots all you want. Ultimately itís counterproductive.

NoValueAviator
10-06-2018, 03:38 AM
I love bashing PSA as much as the next guy, but I didnít have a clue about any of their scabby behavior until I hit the line and ran into someone who got burned by it.

fenix1
10-06-2018, 06:07 AM
Just for the sake of argument & the original question, letís assume itís a good thing to look forward much more than back.

What changes to the flow are most likely at the 3 WOís during the next round of negotiations? (More/easier flow but less overall compensation than other regionals? Less/harder flow but a significant increase in overall compensation?)

fenix1
10-06-2018, 06:08 AM
Thank you and I appreciate your thoughts a great deal!

I canít speak for Piedmont or Envoy but I believe the flow at PSA is likely to increase. Mainly because our flow language lags our peer airlines and I believe that the company will use increased flow as a carrot in contractual negotiations in lieu of pay raises.

Otterbox
10-06-2018, 07:30 AM
Just for the sake of argument & the original question, let’s assume it’s a good thing to look forward much more than back.

What changes to the flow are most likely at the 3 WO’s during the next round of negotiations? (More/easier flow but less overall compensation than other regionals? Less/harder flow but a significant increase in overall compensation?)

The most recent TA that PDTs pilot group shot down included zero flow changes, scheduling concessions and bottom of the industry pay in the form of Envoy rates.

chrisreedrules
10-06-2018, 07:52 AM
I love bashing PSA as much as the next guy, but I didnít have a clue about any of their scabby behavior until I hit the line and ran into someone who got burned by it.

Anyone at Eagle at that time got burned by it. I do personally believe that PSA would have been shut down very quickly had they turned down that 3rd attempt (they voted no 2x previously). PSA was a roughly 500 pilot airline at that time.

And call PSA pilots what you will. But the word scab is reserved for a special type of person in this industry. And to refer to PSA or any other airline pilots as scabs when they infact arenít is to lessen the impact of the true meaning of that word.

fenix1
10-08-2018, 07:52 PM
Interesting and thanks a lot.

If WO direct compensation doesnít increase (perhaps not the highest but at least in the ballpark with the top paying regional airlines), isnít American (mainline) concerned that the WOís wonít attract a high enough caliber individual today to represent AA well tomorrow as an FO & CA? In other words, at some point with EDV paying first year FOís $50/hr & RPA paying $45/hr and now XJT & SKW paying the same or better than EDV, isnít AAG worried that the only folks who will want to work for the WOís (and eventually flow to AA) are those who would likely have essentially no chance of being competitive for hire at a legacy or WN if they didnít have flow to AA?

The most recent TA that PDTs pilot group shot down included zero flow changes, scheduling concessions and bottom of the industry pay in the form of Envoy rates.

SilentLurker
10-08-2018, 11:36 PM
Interesting and thanks a lot.



If WO direct compensation doesnít increase (perhaps not the highest but at least in the ballpark with the top paying regional airlines), isnít American (mainline) concerned that the WOís wonít attract a high enough caliber individual today to represent AA well tomorrow as an FO & CA? In other words, at some point with EDV paying first year FOís $50/hr & RPA paying $45/hr and now XJT & SKW paying the same or better than EDV, isnít AAG worried that the only folks who will want to work for the WOís (and eventually flow to AA) are those who would likely have essentially no chance of being competitive for hire at a legacy or WN if they didnít have flow to AA?


No.

No.

AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO.

AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilotís history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmenís comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc.

Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc.

The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy.

AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAGís operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPAís safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying itís products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE.

Otterbox
10-09-2018, 12:19 AM
Interesting and thanks a lot.

If WO direct compensation doesnít increase (perhaps not the highest but at least in the ballpark with the top paying regional airlines), isnít American (mainline) concerned that the WOís wonít attract a high enough caliber individual today to represent AA well tomorrow as an FO & CA? In other words, at some point with EDV paying first year FOís $50/hr & RPA paying $45/hr and now XJT & SKW paying the same or better than EDV, isnít AAG worried that the only folks who will want to work for the WOís (and eventually flow to AA) are those who would likely have essentially no chance of being competitive for hire at a legacy or WN if they didnít have flow to AA?

AAG cares about cost efficiencies in its work force. Their goal is to get the job done as cheaply as possible, with quality a secondary consideration.

As far as being worried about people leaving, part of the WO setup is the idea that folks recruited into the WO wonít want to/ be able to leave, so they get 12 years of them working at a discount rate as a WO pilot and the rest of their career at AA working at a rate thatís lower than their peers at Delta et al.

SilentLurker
10-09-2018, 10:14 AM
AAG cares about cost efficiencies in its work force. Their goal is to get the job done as cheaply as possible, with quality a secondary consideration.



As far as being worried about people leaving, part of the WO setup is the idea that folks recruited into the WO wonít want to/ be able to leave, so they get 12 years of them working at a discount rate as a WO pilot and the rest of their career at AA working at a rate thatís lower than their peers at Delta et al.



Those pilots should apply and get hired at Delta that want to work for Delta and do their best to meet Deltaís requirements. Obviously easier said than done. So people come to the WO for a ticket to the big leagues. Nobody will say it loud, but truth is, ALPA mainline is to blame for a two tier union system, thanks to scope relief decades ago. All for financial gain for mainline pilots, large majority of whom were military aviators. Facts.

Dalda Erlines
10-09-2018, 01:05 PM
No.

No.

AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO.

AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilotís history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmenís comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc.

Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc.

The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy.

AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAGís operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPAís safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying itís products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE.

Thatís some strong kool aide. Take it easy on that stuff...Regionals are regionals are regionals. Doesnt matter if youíre a WO/CPP or anything. $ is always the the bottom line. ďFlowĒ is nothing more than a recruiting tool to keep their low cost operation staffed for 10 years.

fenix1
10-09-2018, 10:27 PM
Once the ďbad applesĒ are identified at the WO, what is AAG contractually allowed to do to keep the ďbad applesĒ from flowing to mainline?

Isnít there a correlation between regional pay & ďbad applesĒ? In other words, donít higher paying regional airlines get Ďpick of the litterí generally and, therefore, less ďbad applesĒ so the most effective way to keep ďbad applesĒ from flowing to mainline is by keeping WO regional pay competive with the top-paying regionals to minimize the ďbad applesĒ that enter the WO? (Location of bases versus where indivudal pilots want to live muddies these waters some, but higher pay at regionals generally means a higher caliber pilot group, right?)

No.

No.

AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO.

AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilotís history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmenís comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc.

Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc.

The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy.

AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAGís operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPAís safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying itís products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE.

fenix1
10-09-2018, 10:41 PM
If you see AAG making the assumption that WO pilots wonít be able to leave for jobs at other legacies or WN (or other quality major/LCC opportunities), is it fair to say that you believe WO compensation will always be significantly lower than the top-paying regional airlines and roughly as they are currently, relatively speaking? (ie, if top-paying regionals are paying 1st year FOís $50-55 per hour as they are today, then the WOís will never pay more than than $38-ish per hour for 1st year FOís?)

AAG cares about cost efficiencies in its work force. Their goal is to get the job done as cheaply as possible, with quality a secondary consideration.

As far as being worried about people leaving, part of the WO setup is the idea that folks recruited into the WO wonít want to/ be able to leave, so they get 12 years of them working at a discount rate as a WO pilot and the rest of their career at AA working at a rate thatís lower than their peers at Delta et al.

Otterbox
10-10-2018, 04:16 AM
If you see AAG making the assumption that WO pilots wonít be able to leave for jobs at other legacies or WN (or other quality major/LCC opportunities), is it fair to say that you believe WO compensation will always be significantly lower than the top-paying regional airlines and roughly as they are currently, relatively speaking? (ie, if top-paying regionals are paying 1st year FOís $50-55 per hour as they are today, then the WOís will never pay more than than $38-ish per hour for 1st year FOís?)

Youíll always see the AA WO lagging the pack leaders in pay, as AAG believes thereís an intrinsic value to the no interview flow through to AA. AAG seems to tend to aim to pay its employees approximately 20% lower than their counterparts at other companies.

WO recruitment is heavily focused on folks who donít have a college degree, wish to spend their aviation careers in a geographic location that coincides with AA bases, cadet programs, and RTP programs... folks that are less likely to leave once they settle in to the left seat of the plane. Some folks choose to go to an AA WO for the flow through because of hiccups in their training/flying/criminal records or employment history, but it does an injustice to characterize them as ďbad applesĒ. Most of those folks had their choice of regionals when applying as does everyone else and chose to go to a regional with a flow as an insurance plan to get to a Legacy carrier.

NoValueAviator
10-10-2018, 06:59 AM
Many bad apples have already gone to AA. Anytime someone starts talking about a terrible pilot (skills or personality), the second sentence is always "they're at AA now."

fenix1
10-12-2018, 11:36 PM
When does ENYís current contract expire? When will negotiations start on the next contract?

bigtime209
10-13-2018, 06:31 AM
When does ENY’s current contract expire? When will negotiations start on the next contract?

Contract goes through October 2024. There is a limited reopener in October 2020 where the company and ALPA can each bring a couple of items to the table to attempt to negotiate. Anything negotiated during the limited reopener must be cost neutral to the company.

PilotPete4You
10-13-2018, 07:51 AM
I wonder if new hourly rates are cost neutral if we factor in how much flying we turn down because we dont have staffing!

GuardPolice
10-13-2018, 01:34 PM
No.

No.

AAG wants the majority of their pilot pool from its WO. They check more than PRIA records & employment records before flow/Indoc just like any other mainline. AAG has advantages by having flows from its WO.

AAG is very smart in having a no interview flow. They entrust their WO regional recruiting department. They know everything about its WO pilotís history. Data collection through saber and other programs in the training department is huge! From detailed training records and sim performances to weaknesses and strengths. From attendance record to details regarding disciplinary issues with CPO. From Sick time usage and troubles to line item data like on-time DP to fuel score card, to many other things you can imagine but are unaware that is data driven and tracked since WO NEW HIRE CLASS DATE. Im sure even your Line Check Airmenís comments and scores in Saber are accessible/transferable to AAG. Overa AAG knows who they are getting and have a recorded history of behavior patter and how that pilot will fly at Mainline, how they will learning and how they will perform, or if they will have performance regressions, etc.

Most of this is what I have heard from multiple sources. Overall Mainline knows the bad apples when they flow before they step foot at Mainline Indoc.

The flow benefits mainline in a great way. Overall word is they are very pleased with the large majority of WO Pilots performance not only at the regional level, but when they arrive at mainline training, during IOE, and during probation, and while on the Line. More so than military and non-WO who are unfamiliar with the operations and have to take a bit long time getting adjusted. AA WO have overall knowledge of the operation similar & almost identical to AA FM-1 as WO FM-1,. From what i know WO Pilots, especially Envoy, are told to relax and to let go of the PTSD treatment they received from regional flight operations and scheduling at Envoy.

AAG is not worried about the quality of Pilots. The WO are churning out great pilots for AAGís operation. The WO regional carriers have a great training programs, many rumors and feedbacks from those that have flowed are that WO training programs are even tougher than mainline. Overall Line flying experiences from great captains and ALPAís safety programs have produce high quality aviators & top notch training departments & overall safety records at Envoy, PDT, PSA. AA Mainline seems to trust its WO (ENY PSA PDT) production and product representation & integration unlike UA & DL which has to test/re-interview its aspirants from EDV-Delta/CPP Regionals-United already flying itís products and customers which to me is TURD IN THE FACE.


This is unbelievable, really. AA knows exactly the bad apples they are getting through a no-interview flow, yet also knows they have to take them per the flow agreements. This is exactly why flow will probably never show up anywhere else.

NoValueAviator
10-13-2018, 05:02 PM
In fairness, AA gets plenty of bad apples of their own. Possibly more. Jumpseat around sometime. Some real nasty dudes in the right seat over there, toxic like you wouldn't believe. There are some unhappy SOBs here at Envoy, but their grievances are less petty in my experience at least.

I rode behind an FO who spent 2.5 hours from 10k and up talking through gritted teeth about how he thinks some regional schmo he saw walking through the terminal with a set of Beats on his head should get fired immediately. I think he thought it was me.

Tyrion
10-13-2018, 09:13 PM
Like was said before, pay rates will stay low compared to other regionals because the value of flow to new hires is still worth more than pay at other places. AAG management will only make changes when the competition makes a better offer and WO recruiting starts to suffer. I can think of 3 factors that might push this... 1. Other regionals also get a no interview flow to a major. 2. Other regionals raise pay to ridiculous rates that offset the value of flow. 3. Hiring to mainline from regionals comes at such a high rate that flow loses its value.

AAG is fighting the third factor by essentially only hiring from its WOs. It keeps movement in house high and makes career progression at other places stagnate. If hiring at Delta and United one day gets to the "fog a mirror" point, flow will become pointless because pilots will go to the best paying and quickest places to build their resumes.

uavking
10-13-2018, 09:43 PM
I rode behind an FO who spent 2.5 hours from 10k and up talking through gritted teeth about how he thinks some regional schmo he saw walking through the terminal with a set of Beats on his head should get fired immediately. I think he thought it was me.

If he were in the service, then that reaction isnít too surprising. Walking around looking jacked up like that would be a great way to get chewed out by an NCO, at best, or some NJP from your commander, at worst. Yeah, I get that walking around the concourse isnít directly akin to walking around post, but come on guys, youíre in uniform in front of the public. Have some pride, look like a professional, and watch out for your buddies.

fenix1
10-13-2018, 10:40 PM
Thanks a lot

Contract goes through October 2024. There is a limited reopener in October 2020 where the company and ALPA can each bring a couple of items to the table to attempt to negotiate. Anything negotiated during the limited reopener must be cost neutral to the company.

E175 Driver
10-14-2018, 06:41 AM
Like was said before, pay rates will stay low compared to other regionals because the value of flow to new hires is still worth more than pay at other places. AAG management will only make changes when the competition makes a better offer and WO recruiting starts to suffer. I can think of 3 factors that might push this... 1. Other regionals also get a no interview flow to a major. 2. Other regionals raise pay to ridiculous rates that offset the value of flow. 3. Hiring to mainline from regionals comes at such a high rate that flow loses its value.

AAG is fighting the third factor by essentially only hiring from its WOs. It keeps movement in house high and makes career progression at other places stagnate. If hiring at Delta and United one day gets to the "fog a mirror" point, flow will become pointless because pilots will go to the best paying and quickest places to build their resumes.

Remember, this is a Regional! Want better pay, QOL? Get hired my a Major!

NoValueAviator
10-14-2018, 07:05 AM
If he were in the service, then that reaction isnít too surprising. Walking around looking jacked up like that would be a great way to get chewed out by an NCO, at best, or some NJP from your commander, at worst. Yeah, I get that walking around the concourse isnít directly akin to walking around post, but come on guys, youíre in uniform in front of the public. Have some pride, look like a professional, and watch out for your buddies.

I hear what youíre saying and I too would prefer to keep up the masquerade that this is a prestigious, high-paying, white collar career.

The reality is that it isnít though. We are treated like grocery baggers. And wearing headphones complies minimally with FM1.



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