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View Full Version : Reserve Rule Interpretation


CrowneVic
10-01-2018, 07:59 AM
Starting a new thread for us newbies and others on reserve at another's recommendation. Posted below what I was asking on another general thread to kick it off.

TIA

"Wow, just wow, what?

Are you saying that if I am released from a RAP at 1800 on one day, donít confirm my assignment for the next, that CS canít call me as early as 0400 the next morning with an assignment or a 0400 RAP?

Donít I start rest as soon as I duty off, which in this example, would mean I have had a legal rest period by 0400 and could be assigned something other than a rest period?

Isnít it true that CS CAN, but doesnít HAVE to call you at midnight with a rest assignment? Where in the contract does it say they SHALL call at midnight and give you rest, and that they canít just wait until youíve had a legal rest period to call with an assignment?

I understand what Pedro is saying, I believe.

One thing I did not get exactly clear in my explanation was the union email. That was about pilots who had already been assigned a RAP and were then called by CS and put on rest again to extend legality within a single duty day.

So, tell me if I am wrong here. If you have not confirmed an assignment, yes, CS CAN call at midnight or anytime thereafter to put you on a legal rest period with that first phone call. I understand that is the USUAL practice as Pedro was saying, but is that the contractually required or legal practice?

However, canít they also just wait until youíve had legal rest from the end of your last duty period, then call with an assignment instead of a rest period?

If I end a flight assignment at 1000 on day one, have I not had 14 hours of rest by the end of the day midnight, and am now legal for assignment? Isnít that the risk you take by playing the ďnot confirmingĒ game? What prevents the company from just giving me an assignment at this point rather than a new rest period?"


Pedro4President
10-01-2018, 09:13 AM
Starting a new thread for us newbies and others on reserve at another's recommendation. Posted below what I was asking on another general thread to kick it off.

TIA

"Wow, just wow, what?

Are you saying that if I am released from a RAP at 1800 on one day, donít confirm my assignment for the next, that CS canít call me as early as 0400 the next morning with an assignment or a 0400 RAP?

Donít I start rest as soon as I duty off, which in this example, would mean I have had a legal rest period by 0400 and could be assigned something other than a rest period?

Isnít it true that CS CAN, but doesnít HAVE to call you at midnight with a rest assignment? Where in the contract does it say they SHALL call at midnight and give you rest, and that they canít just wait until youíve had a legal rest period to call with an assignment?

I understand what Pedro is saying, I believe.

One thing I did not get exactly clear in my explanation was the union email. That was about pilots who had already been assigned a RAP and were then called by CS and put on rest again to extend legality within a single duty day.

So, tell me if I am wrong here. If you have not confirmed an assignment, yes, CS CAN call at midnight or anytime thereafter to put you on a legal rest period with that first phone call. I understand that is the USUAL practice as Pedro was saying, but is that the contractually required or legal practice?

However, canít they also just wait until youíve had legal rest from the end of your last duty period, then call with an assignment instead of a rest period?

If I end a flight assignment at 1000 on day one, have I not had 14 hours of rest by the end of the day midnight, and am now legal for assignment? Isnít that the risk you take by playing the ďnot confirmingĒ game? What prevents the company from just giving me an assignment at this point rather than a new rest period?"

We already have a reserve rules thread but oh well.


You have several things confused.

1. You don't understand legal rest periods.
2. You don't understand the types of legal reserve assignments and how they differ.
3. You can have multiple duty periods in one day as long as they follow 117.

If you are preassigned a RAP 1 CS can legally and contractually call at 0401 give you ten hours of rest and then give you a flight assignment.

Back on the midnight thing. If you do not have a schedule then the rest you "accumulated" until then doesn't count for anything. You need to read the definition of "rest period" in 117.

You can ONLY be legal for an assignment (flight, RAP or standby) if you knew about it ten hours before the duty time startedand you were provided 8 hours of sleep, and it was uninterrupted. (Extenuating rules apply when picking up OT.)

Pedro4President
10-01-2018, 09:32 AM
Let me give you a brief history of reserve rules at Envoy. Back in the good ole days when CS gave you an assignment the day prior you just did it. You confirmed and you flew the assignment. At one point you didn't even have to confirm you just showed up to your assignment. Well 117 said the company couldn't require you to check your schedule or do anything when you are in rest so at midnight the company would call and give assignments to those that didn't confirm with the required ten hours of rest. The absurd scenario you described where no one would confirm their RAP 1 ACTUALLY happened for more than a year without pre assigned RAP 1. The company would have zero pilots on early RAPs and had to cancel flights. Then they started to do PRE assignments of RAP 1 via HI6 on their first day back off rest.

There's two things that I want to clarify. If you don't confirm your schedule for the next day and you have been pre assigned a RAP 1 and you proffered for something else then your RAp 1 is Put back on you at 9 pm central.

If you are in the middle of the reserve days and you forget to confirm then CS will likely call you between 8-930 instead of waiting until midnight. (People will disagree with this next statement and they may be right contractually but my advice is that those who want to avoid hassles and are on probation.) If you get a call from CS before midnight you are not required to call them back. My only suggestion is if you are currently on a RAP or standby then you should return the call. Some people will say you Never have to return a call for a next day reserve assignment until midnight.


moon
10-01-2018, 09:45 AM
Let me give you a brief history of reserve rules at Envoy. Back in the good ole days when CS gave you an assignment the day prior you just did it. You confirmed and you flew the assignment. At one point you didn't even have to confirm you just showed up to your assignment. Well 117 said the company couldn't require you to check your schedule or do anything when you are in rest so at midnight the company would call and give assignments to those that didn't confirm with the required ten hours of rest. The absurd scenario you described where no one would confirm their RAP 1 ACTUALLY happened for more than a year without pre assigned RAP 1. The company would have zero pilots on early RAPs and had to cancel flights. Then they started to do PRE assignments of RAP 1 via HI6 on their first day back off rest.

There's two things that I want to clarify. If you don't confirm your schedule for the next day and you have been pre assigned a RAP 1 and you proffered for something else then your RAp 1 is Put back on you at 9 pm central.

If you are in the middle of the reserve days and you forget to confirm then CS will likely call you between 8-930 instead of waiting until midnight. (People will disagree with this next statement and they may be right contractually but my advice is that those who want to avoid hassles and are on probation.) If you get a call from CS before midnight you are not required to call them back. My only suggestion is if you are currently on a RAP or standby then you should return the call. Some people will say you Never have to return a call for a next day reserve assignment until midnight.

This is all correct. Crowne you have a misunderstanding of our reserve rules. It may make sense in your mind, but it isn't factual due to 117. There are many many emails from ALPA regarding this, unfortunately I'm guessing it is prior to your time at Envoy so you don't have a record of these. Reach out to Captains you fly with who have actually done long stints of reserve (anyone hired before 2016), and they should have a good grasp on what is true and what isnt.

Weekendwarrior2
10-01-2018, 12:23 PM
I would also suggest reading the 117 rules. I think ALPA has a good pdf guide on them , and it should clarify some of the stuff you are confused on as far as rest periods.

Bruno82
10-01-2018, 02:18 PM
So, if on reserve I proffer and am given a trip that allows me to commute in on the day of the trip as opposed to the day before a trip and I call AVRS at 5:00pm the day before and confirm it, I can sleep easy knowing that theyíre not going to reassign me to something else, correct? In other words, if I confirm a trip or Ready Reserve for the following day, they canít reassign me to another trip, RAP, or Ready Reserve before my original sign in time. Is that correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MD-11Loader
10-01-2018, 02:35 PM
So, if on reserve I proffer and am given a trip that allows me to commute in on the day of the trip as opposed to the day before a trip and I call AVRS at 5:00pm the day before and confirm it, I can sleep easy knowing that theyíre not going to reassign me to something else, correct? In other words, if I confirm a trip or Ready Reserve for the following day, they canít reassign me to another trip, RAP, or Ready Reserve before my original sign in time. Is that correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you proffer, are awarded, and confirm, then youíre good to go. You can commute in like a normal trip.

DilsonWic
10-01-2018, 02:42 PM
This is exactly why the company likes a JR airline.

moon
10-01-2018, 02:44 PM
This is exactly why the company likes a JR airline.

They should just hurry up and flow us all out of here to get the misunderstanding of the contract they desire.

EnyFlyr
10-01-2018, 03:00 PM
If you proffer, are awarded, and confirm, then youíre good to go. You can commute in like a normal trip.

What if another pilot calls after he confirmed and appropriates that trip? Wouldnt they send him back to rap1 or 2?

highfarfast
10-01-2018, 03:11 PM
What if another pilot calls after he confirmed and appropriates that trip? Wouldnt they send him back to rap1 or 2?

I can’t remember off hand what happens to the res pilot when flying is appropriated (never happened to me on reserve) but it helps to think in terms that you are not required to carry a cell phone at any time for this job. If you didn’t have a cell phone, you wouldn’t know that your flight was appropriated until you showed up for the flight... unless you voluntarily called them or voluntarily answered a phone when they called you. Whatever they can do to you as a res pilot in this situation (read the LOA), keep that in mind before you answer/return call.

Pedro4President
10-01-2018, 04:07 PM
What if another pilot calls after he confirmed and appropriates that trip? Wouldnt they send him back to rap1 or 2?

Nope. Read the reserve appropriation LOA. 90% sure it's LOA 13-13.

Essentially three things can happen.
1. You are released.
2. You are given a RAP at the time your sign in.
3. You and CS come to a mutually beneficial agreement.

Suffice it to say once you get a commutable trip they can't take it away from you.

Pedro4President
10-01-2018, 04:09 PM
I canít remember off hand what happens to the res pilot when flying is appropriated (never happened to me on reserve) but it helps to think in terms that you are not required to carry a cell phone at any time for this job. If you didnít have a cell phone, you wouldnít know that your flight was appropriated until you showed up for the flight... unless you voluntarily called them or voluntarily answered a phone when they called you. Whatever they can do to you as a res pilot in this situation (read the LOA), keep that in mind before you answer/return call.

Agreed.... however-

There's really no reason to avoid a home call for an appropriated flight notification. This would be a little bit different if the flight was cancelled. There are different rules for cancelled vs appropriated trips.

highfarfast
10-01-2018, 04:21 PM
Agreed.... however-

There's really no reason to avoid a home call for an appropriated flight notification. This would be a little bit different if the flight was cancelled. There are different rules for cancelled vs appropriated trips.

You agree with me... and I agree with you... lol. I did think of that. Just pointing out there was no reason to HAVE to answer that call that said you’re appropriated which was the angle the question was asked.

My rule of thumb is to never answer the phone from an initial call from CS. This gives me a chance to hear the message, think about rules, regs, and contract as they relate to the situation and message, deside if I’m required to return the call or not, deside if I WANT to return the call or not, and what I’m going to say if I do return the call. If nothing else, it buys me 15 minutes to get to where I need to be.

So long as CS has a “fly it now and grieve it later” mentality, I see no reason to operate differently. We work for the same company but we are not on the same team, sadly.

Pedro4President
10-01-2018, 05:52 PM
You agree with me... and I agree with you... lol. I did think of that. Just pointing out there was no reason to HAVE to answer that call that said youíre appropriated which was the angle the question was asked.

My rule of thumb is to never answer the phone from an initial call from CS. This gives me a chance to hear the message, think about rules, regs, and contract as they relate to the situation and message, deside if Iím required to return the call or not, deside if I WANT to return the call or not, and what Iím going to say if I do return the call. If nothing else, it buys me 15 minutes to get to where I need to be.

So long as CS has a ďfly it now and grieve it laterĒ mentality, I see no reason to operate differently. We work for the same company but we are not on the same team, sadly.

Well said.

EnyFlyr
10-07-2018, 01:40 PM
Silly question. Can you get released then pick up OT that same day? Hehe

Pedro4President
10-07-2018, 05:47 PM
Silly question. Can you get released then pick up OT that same day? Hehe

Unfortunately no.