# Airline Pilot Forums

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word302

10-03-2018, 11:06 AM

At OO we are fighting for marketing block or better pay (the departure time to the arrival time set by the mainline partner). Currently we are paid our historical block or better which is usually significantly less. We are being told that you guys get paid the same as us. Is that true?

DashAviator

10-03-2018, 12:20 PM

We're paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater.

Our contract contains a fairly detailed section on how scheduled block time is calculated. Basically, they use a 12-month average of the actual block time for that flight segment. The union and the company can adjust the scheduled block time every four months, if conditions warrant.

For NEW routes, the company uses published marketing schedule times for 90 days (or 150 flight segments), then they average the results to come up with a scheduled block time. Again, we are paid the greater of the scheduled block time OR the actual block time.

In the Q400, most of our trip credit is determined by duty time or time away from base (the trip rig is 1:2:4).

Hope this helps. It sounds like SkyWest management may be referring to new routes only.

word302

10-03-2018, 12:35 PM

We're paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater.

Our contract contains a fairly detailed section on how scheduled block time is calculated. Basically, they use a 12-month average of the actual block time for that flight segment. The union and the company can adjust the scheduled block time every four months, if conditions warrant.

For NEW routes, the company uses published marketing schedule times for 90 days (or 150 flight segments), then they average the results to come up with a scheduled block time. Again, we are paid the greater of the scheduled block time OR the actual block time.

In the Q400, most of our trip credit is determined by duty time or time away from base (the trip rig is 1:2:4).

Hope this helps. It sounds like SkyWest management may be referring to new routes only.

It sounds like you are paid just like us. Our "credit" is a historical average block over some period. Is the scheduled block time set by Alaska or QX? I know they're basically one in the same, but just wondering if QX cooks the numbers after being given them by Alaska.

DashAviator

10-03-2018, 01:37 PM

It sounds like you are paid just like us. Our "credit" is a historical average block over some period. Is the scheduled block time set by Alaska or QX? I know they're basically one in the same, but just wondering if QX cooks the numbers after being given them by Alaska.

I think it's all done on the Horizon side, don't know for sure. The union has access to the data, so I'm mostly OK with how the scheduled time is computed. Believe it or not, this was a hot topic a few years ago. The union and the company have gone back and forth a few times on how "scheduled" and "actual" are measured (or calculated). If I recall correctly, there's still an open grievance from last year regarding "door closure" times for pay purposes.

Starchkr

10-03-2018, 01:44 PM

In the Q400, most of our trip credit is determined by duty time or time away from base (the trip rig is 1:2:4).

Dash,

Can you explain how trip rig works for a newbie to 121? I thought that credit hours were just block time. Thanks.

word302

10-03-2018, 01:44 PM

I think it's all done on the Horizon side, don't know for sure. The union has access to the data, so I'm mostly OK with how the scheduled time is computed. Believe it or not, this was a hot topic a few years ago. The union and the company have gone back and forth a few times on how "scheduled" and "actual" are measured (or calculated). If I recall correctly, there's still an open grievance from last year regarding "door closure" times for pay purposes.

Lol. Same same. I don't have a problem with how our times are calculated either, but it's not how most of the industry is paid and at least for us, puts us at a significant loss to the competition.

Fixnem2Flyinem

10-03-2018, 02:14 PM

All I know is 4.2 is gold. I usually credit 80-85 while only logging 60-65 a month. This next trip is a block trip bust most the 4.2 guarantee will bring the credit up higher than block. Building flight time is a slow crawl on the Q. Been here for 18 months with 120 prior 121 time and am still 100 hours away from 1000 121 time

ASpilot2be

10-03-2018, 02:31 PM

Dash,

Can you explain how trip rig works for a newbie to 121? I thought that credit hours were just block time. Thanks.

At the end of a trip you look at your block hours, your duty time for the trip, and total time away from base. You take the duty hours and divide it by two, and tafb and divide it by four. Whatever is the greatest out of the three is what you get paid.

But when you look at your block hours make sure youre incorporating the 4.2 in it.

Say you had a trip that looked like this:

Day 1:

3.0 hours block

9 hours duty

Day 2:

5.0 hours block

11 hours duty

Day 3:

2.0 block

5 hours duty

Total block is 13.4 with the 4.2.

Total duty is 25 hours, divide that by two and you get 12.5.

Let's total tafb is 60 hours. Divide that by four and you get 15 hours.

You will get paid 15 hours for the trip because it's the greater of all the amounts.

DashAviator

10-03-2018, 04:09 PM

Dash,

Can you explain how trip rig works for a newbie to 121? I thought that credit hours were just block time. Thanks.

We also get a one-to-one credit for deadheads. In other words, deadheads count the same as block time for pay purposes. This is especially helpful for reserves, as they often spend 15-20 hours a month just riding in the back of the airplane to their next flying leg.

F2F: I flew a lot more when I was a Part 135 pilot. We were considered an "on-demand" operation, so our yearly limit was 1400 hours flight time. Some of us actually hit that number and had to take the rest of the year off. I typically fly 650-800 hours a year at Horizon. Ironically, pilots on reserve often work more, but fly less (due to deadheads and sits).

Starchkr

10-03-2018, 04:18 PM

Great explanation.

I thought I flew a lot when I was working Part 135 but I never hit the 1400 hour mark. That sounds brutal.

Ala5ka

10-03-2018, 06:57 PM

If air group pays horizon the same way they pay us at Alaska, then the pay is paid in United States Currency via direct deposit. Hope this helps.

DashAviator

10-04-2018, 06:14 AM

If air group pays horizon the same way they pay us at Alaska, then the pay is paid in United States Currency via direct deposit. Hope this helps.

Hey, we also get four day-old crew meals, digital trophies, and random calls from Crew Scheduling :D

Ala5ka

10-04-2018, 06:29 AM

The gifts that keep on giving!!!Hey, we also get four day-old crew meals, digital trophies, and random calls from Crew Scheduling :D

RemiDenton

01-04-2019, 06:12 AM

Building flight time is a slow crawl on the Q. Been here for 18 months with 120 prior 121 time and am still 100 hours away from 1000 121 time

Are the 175 guys feeling the same vibe or is this just the Q? I’m at decision time for aircraft in the hire process and data on this isn’t published much here. Is the Q getting better, especially with holiday flying?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

snackysmores

01-04-2019, 10:16 AM

Are the 175 guys feeling the same vibe or is this just the Q? I’m at decision time for aircraft in the hire process and data on this isn’t published much here. Is the Q getting better, especially with holiday flying?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

QOL on the Q has been on a steady decline ever since the first jet arrived, and will continue to only get worse. Impossible to build seniority as they keep parking planes.. 5-6 leg days are the new norm.. at least there's 4.2 min pay per day but you will probably block around 3 - 3.5 hours of flying in 5-6 legs..

RemiDenton

01-04-2019, 10:19 AM

Thanks for quick replies snacky. Sounds like a long term commute regardless if you aren’t in Sea or PDX on either jet.

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snackysmores

01-04-2019, 11:20 AM

Thanks for quick replies snacky. Sounds like a long term commute regardless if you aren’t in Sea or PDX on either jet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you're forced commute I'd choose to fly the jet. One of the nicest planes you will probably ever fly in your entire career...

Dashdrvr

01-05-2019, 11:58 PM

At the end of a trip you look at your block hours, your duty time for the trip, and total time away from base. You take the duty hours and divide it by two, and tafb and divide it by four. Whatever is the greatest out of the three is what you get paid.

But when you look at your block hours make sure youre incorporating the 4.2 in it.

Say you had a trip that looked like this:

Day 1:

3.0 hours block

9 hours duty

Day 2:

5.0 hours block

11 hours duty

Day 3:

2.0 block

5 hours duty

Total block is 13.4 with the 4.2.

Total duty is 25 hours, divide that by two and you get 12.5.

Let's total tafb is 60 hours. Divide that by four and you get 15 hours.

You will get paid 15 hours for the trip because it's the greater of all the amounts.

I believe your calculations are way off. The calculation is on a daily basis. Your calculations appear to be averaged over the trip. Using your example.

Day1: will pay greater of block, duty x .5 or 4.2. Answer is 4.5 (50% duty)

Day 2:Answer is 5.5(50% duty)

Day 3: Answer is 4.2(minimum daily guarantee). Block is 2.0 hours, 50% of duty is 2.5 thus minimum daily guarantee applies.

Total trip credit is 14.2 hours provided Time Away from Base doesn't exceed 58 hours.

My calculations are for the Q400 only.

Jet gets greater of Block, 50%of duty, or 25% of Time Away From Base averaged over the trip.

Day trips pay minimum 4.0

ASpilot2be

01-06-2019, 03:55 PM

I believe your calculations are way off. The calculation is on a daily basis. Your calculations appear to be averaged over the trip. Using your example.

Day1: will pay greater of block, duty x .5 or 4.2. Answer is 4.5 (50% duty)

Day 2:Answer is 5.5(50% duty)

Day 3: Answer is 4.2(minimum daily guarantee). Block is 2.0 hours, 50% of duty is 2.5 thus minimum daily guarantee applies.

Total trip credit is 14.2 hours provided Time Away from Base doesn't exceed 58 hours.

My calculations are for the Q400 only.

Jet gets greater of Block, 50%of duty, or 25% of Time Away From Base averaged over the trip.

Day trips pay minimum 4.0

I was using pilot math it seems.:D

Upon further review a trips SCH value is the greater of:

1. The sum of all calendar days SCH within a trip pairing or

2. 25% of the trip time or

3. 50% of the actual trip duty time.

So it seem it is trip duty time.

snackysmores

01-06-2019, 05:18 PM

I was using pilot math it seems.:D

Upon further review a trips SCH value is the greater of:

1. The sum of all calendar days SCH within a trip pairing or

2. 25% of the trip time or

3. 50% of the actual trip duty time.

So it seem it is trip duty time.

For the Q400 it's either block pay 1:1, duty 2:1, or TAFB 4:1...

So on your trip key look at the pay code, B, D, or T...

Then add any extra time the 4.2 per day adds...

Example

Day 1: 3.0 block

Day 2: 5.0 block

Day 3: 5.0 block

Total block: 13, total pay 14.2.

ASpilot2be

01-06-2019, 07:38 PM

For the Q400 it's either block pay 1:1, duty 2:1, or TAFB 4:1...

So on your trip key look at the pay code, B, D, or T...

Then add any extra time the 4.2 per day adds...

Example

Day 1: 3.0 block

Day 2: 5.0 block

Day 3: 5.0 block

Total block: 13, total pay 14.2.

Thats what I was thinking. Dashaviator was saying the block and duty calculations are on a daily basis. I read it as on a trip basis.

pilotjames

01-16-2019, 02:44 PM

Thats what I was thinking. Dashaviator was saying the block and duty calculations are on a daily basis. I read it as on a trip basis.

I would like to Thank you for your time for explaining in detail. but can you explain which times are being calculating to pay ?

Right now their hourly pay is $40 so how do they calculate ? do They only calculate 13.4x40 ??

DashAviator

01-16-2019, 04:05 PM

I would like to Thank you for your time for explaining in detail. but can you explain which times are being calculating to pay ?

Right now their hourly pay is $40 so how do they calculate ? do They only calculate 13.4x40 ??

Regarding our trip credit, the example snackysmores gave is correct. We have a 1:2:4 trip rig for both the Q400 and the jet, but the MINIMUM credit for any day in the Q400 is 4.2. This was included in our most recent contract to keep the company from building "trash" trips. For example, we once had some two-day trips worth only 5 or 6 hours. Incidentally, the flight attendants have had a "4 hour per day" minimum in their contract for years.

If you work a 13.4 credit hour trip with a pay rate of $40/hour, then you're paid $536 for the trip. Most FO's get 70 or 80 credit hours per month, so your gross pay is around $2800 to $3200. Your per diem is another $500 or so. My FO take-home pay was around $550 per week. Better bank that bonus!