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Grundt
10-04-2018, 03:31 PM
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/


USMCFDX
10-04-2018, 03:47 PM
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

Comparison chart has multiple errors.

Grundt
10-04-2018, 03:57 PM
Comparison chart has multiple errors.

Letís hear them so that they can be fixed.

Iíll start: it says that all ABX Amazon flights are catered when in fact all ABX Amazon flights EXCEPT for flights leaving CVG are catered.


Industry Strnd
10-04-2018, 04:05 PM
Letís hear them so that they can be fixed.

Iíll start: it says that all ABX Amazon flights are catered when in fact all ABX Amazon flights EXCEPT for flights leaving CVG are catered.


Water and some left over mustard packets could be considered catering!

Grundt
10-04-2018, 05:00 PM
Water and some left over mustard packets could be considered catering!

Lol touchť

Diver Driver
10-04-2018, 05:21 PM
Good stuff, thanks for creating this. The thread has been pinned to the top for visibility.

dynap09
10-04-2018, 06:45 PM
No bad.

I'd be interested to see DOH for junior captain if available.

Blackhawk
10-04-2018, 07:41 PM
Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

sky jet
10-05-2018, 02:11 AM
Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

Nope, 50%:mad:

BoilerUP
10-05-2018, 03:18 AM
Some of the chartís UPS data is transposed with FDX, perdiem and guarantee and such.

SaltyDog
10-05-2018, 05:45 AM
Another consideration. How long to retirement. Based on my age I will never see the Max FO pay at UPS or FedEx, much less the max CA pay. At another carrier, yes. At someplace like Kalitta I have a chance of making CA pay in the next 10 years. As much as the max CA pay at FedEx or UPS? Nope. But probably more than I would make there as an FO.
Also, I think Kalitta domestic DH is 50%, but international is 100%:

In present market and retirement rates, today's new hires at FedEx or UPS will be Captain at 10 years if they choose. Don't discount these two contracts additional DCP and DBP compensation which is not insignificant plus higher monthly guarantee hours.
Cant accurately foretell the future at any place though.

Blackhawk
10-05-2018, 06:06 AM
In present market and retirement rates, today's new hires at FedEx or UPS will be Captain at 10 years if they choose. Don't discount these two contracts additional DCP and DBP compensation which is not insignificant plus higher monthly guarantee hours.
Cant accurately foretell the future at any place though.

My current window is just under 10 years. None of the majors or UPS/FedEx will touch me as I’ve been in the same seat too long and am deemed “untrainable”. Also my GPA from college was less than a 3.0 (double major, drilling with the Guard, well known tough school). So I would have to go somewhere else first to be trained and “prove myself”. By the time I am trained elsewhere, get an interview date, maybe a successful interview, put in the pool, get a class date... I’m down to maybe 8 years. With compressed time the advantages diminish.

Blackhawk
10-05-2018, 06:07 AM
Nope, 50%:mad:

Just read that. I was told wrong.

SaltyDog
10-05-2018, 06:40 AM
My current window is just under 10 years. None of the majors or UPS/FedEx will touch me as Iíve been in the same seat too long and am deemed ďuntrainableĒ. Also my GPA from college was less than a 3.0 (double major, drilling with the Guard, well known tough school). So I would have to go somewhere else first to be trained and ďprove myselfĒ. By the time I am trained elsewhere, get an interview date, maybe a successful interview, put in the pool, get a class date... Iím down to maybe 8 years. With compressed time the advantages diminish.

Seems everyone does want a fresh type rating from current employer to demonstrate "trainability" :/
Instructor or LCA carries weight in HR as well.
Best of fortunes

Av8er1550
10-05-2018, 06:49 AM
I know this is probably a ridiculous question but Iím going to ask it anyways. Iíve been with one regional so far so I know how it works on my side but not at other airlines. When looking at the compensation charts, would a 15 year FO upgrading to captain receive 15 year CA pay? Or is this what DOS+(whatever) is intended for?

Excellent post by the way! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Locke
10-05-2018, 07:48 AM
I know this is probably a ridiculous question but Iím going to ask it anyways. Iíve been with one regional so far so I know how it works on my side but not at other airlines. When looking at the compensation charts, would a 15 year FO upgrading to captain receive 15 year CA pay? Or is this what DOS+(whatever) is intended for?

Excellent post by the way! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, a 15 year FO would be paid as a 15 year captain when he upgrades with the exception being a few foreign carriers. Also DOS is date of signing of the contract. So say the contract is signed on Jan 1st, but you were hired Jun before the signing. You get your yearly raise in Jun, and you get an additional raise the next Jan 1st because the pay scale will be DOS+1.

Clear as mud?

Av8er1550
10-05-2018, 08:12 AM
Yes, a 15 year FO would be paid as a 15 year captain when he upgrades with the exception being a few foreign carriers. Also DOS is date of signing of the contract. So say the contract is signed on Jan 1st, but you were hired Jun before the signing. You get your yearly raise in Jun, and you get an additional raise the next Jan 1st because the pay scale will be DOS+1.



Clear as mud?



Got it! Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No Land 3
10-05-2018, 01:22 PM
Blackhawk, you'd do very well to come to K4, if you can handle the 16 days on the road.

Blackhawk
10-05-2018, 01:39 PM
Blackhawk, you'd do very well to come to K4, if you can handle the 16 days on the road.

I agree. Iím on my way.

shroomwell
10-05-2018, 07:47 PM
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/

I swear Iím not trying to be a jerk. But you misspelled ďknowledgeĒ on the web page.

SaltyDog
10-06-2018, 05:37 AM
I swear Iím not trying to be a jerk. But you misspelled ďknowledgeĒ on the web page.

thawt was cargo dog speling/truncation, yu have to have knowlede :D

Actually didn't notice till went back and looked

ocskyguy
10-08-2018, 08:07 PM
Comparison chart has multiple errors.


It is a good start.


Economic realities generally mean that the max pay numbers (based on monthly guarantee) are a little low. At least here at K4, if you are breathing, you get a trip. Much of the more greedy folk are pushing 1200+ pay hours per year.


And, other than the 767 guys (sux to be one of you), we are generally over catered on all flights.


The whole no involuntary assignment thing is golden. Been that way long before there even was a contract. Tradition that became statutory.

WhaleWrangler
10-09-2018, 03:59 AM
Your math is wrong for K4. 286.28x64x12 = $219,863.04

Twin Wasp
10-09-2018, 05:55 AM
Atlas isn't home based. Current bases JFK, MIA, HSV, CVG, ORD, LAX, ONT and ANC so all trips and pay start and end in those bases. The company gets you to and from the plane but that doesn't occur as part of a pilot's trip, it happens on time off. It is seen as a benefit to the pilot so the value of the ticket can be added to your taxable income. Atlas calls it "Gateway Basing."

No Land 3
10-09-2018, 07:19 AM
Atlas isn't home based. Current bases JFK, MIA, HSV, CVG, ORD, LAX, ONT and ANC so all trips and pay start and end in those bases. The company gets you to and from the plane but that doesn't occur as part of a pilot's trip, it happens on time off. It is seen as a benefit to the pilot so the value of the ticket can be added to your taxable income. Atlas calls it "Gateway Basing."
That sucks

Twin Wasp
10-09-2018, 08:13 AM
Along with lowest pay rates, lowest guarantee, lowest DH pay and tied for lowest company retirement contributions.

Wings1856
10-09-2018, 01:01 PM
Thanks Grundt, This has been one of the most helpful posts on this forum. Nice change.

lineupandhold
10-12-2018, 07:59 AM
This is awesome, thanks Grundt.

brn2fly1
10-12-2018, 08:46 AM
Make an informed decision and know what youíre getting into.

https://www.pilotcontracts.org/
You have multiple errors on FedEx, UPS and Omni. With the errors is misleading!

gumpscheck
10-13-2018, 08:34 AM
You have multiple errors on FedEx, UPS and Omni. With the errors is misleading!

Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

USMCFDX
10-13-2018, 09:04 AM
Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

Well I said the same thing in the very first post. Why do you want us to do your work for you? There are errors.

Industry Strnd
10-14-2018, 07:10 PM
Well I said the same thing in the very first post. Why do you want us to do your work for you? There are errors.

That's weird I see the contracts there can anyone point to a specific contract section? Hard to believe thre are errors when not one person has pointed to a specfic contract reference error. I look thru some of the contracts compaired to the chart and can't find any errors. Hard to say there are errors in the contracts!

Industry Strnd
10-14-2018, 07:15 PM
Be more specific. Otherwise I would have to disregard you as a management/Ford&Harrison troll.

Now the Atlas study is up compaired to the majors. I'm sure someone will want to dispute the Delta or United rules. Management trying to place
doubt in the facts.
Hard to argue with the ACMI when the contracts are right there. And they are void of common work rules that even regionals have. Can't wait to see seniority lists at acmi get decimated in the next 2-3 years cause the management is too naive and greedy to pay pilots like everyone else is doing!

brn2fly1
10-14-2018, 11:53 PM
That's weird I see the contracts there can anyone point to a specific contract section? Hard to believe thre are errors when not one person has pointed to a specfic contract reference error. I look thru some of the contracts compaired to the chart and can't find any errors. Hard to say there are errors in the contracts!

Iím not doing you work for you! If you canít pay attention to details thatís your problem. There are at least three errors just between FedEx and UPS. Lord knows how many other errors you have on the chart!

brn2fly1
10-14-2018, 11:58 PM
Now the Atlas study is up compaired to the majors. I'm sure someone will want to dispute the Delta or United rules. Management trying to place
doubt in the facts.
Hard to argue with the ACMI when the contracts are right there. And they are void of common work rules that even regionals have. Can't wait to see seniority lists at acmi get decimated in the next 2-3 years cause the management is too naive and greedy to pay pilots like everyone else is doing! Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

HercDriver130
10-15-2018, 03:02 AM
Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

EXACTLY they seem to think their Peers where purple and brown or fly Delta or United jets....get a grip.

BoilerUP
10-15-2018, 03:39 AM
Some of the chartís UPS data is transposed with FDX, perdiem and guarantee and such.

Sometimes I requote myself from Post #10 in this thread...

JonnyKnoxville
10-15-2018, 04:45 AM
EXACTLY they seem to think their Peers where purple and brown or fly Delta or United jets....get a grip.

The truck driver mentality is exactly why most of the Atlas guys were thinking good riddance when you left our union. If you somehow do not see or believe that ATSG, Atlas/Southern, and Kalitta are not in direct competition with UPS and FedEx, then I think we should all be telling you to get a grip.

Whether you realize it or not, Amazon and DHL are using our airlines to go after UPS and FedEx similar to how Southwest went after domestic market share of American, Delta, and United throughout the 1980s and 1990s. If you still don't believe it, I have a sort facility being built in CVG bigger than FedEx in MEM and UPS in SDF combined to sell you.

The ABX and Atlas/Southern pilots do not find it acceptable to allow management to exploit our cheap labor in order to take away high-paying quality jobs at FedEx and UPS. We will continue to fight for industry standard, not just truck driver standard.

JonnyKnoxville
10-15-2018, 04:49 AM
Itís funny how the Atlas Study guide doesnít list one other ACMI carrier in their comparison (Southern doesnít count). It too has multiple errors in it. You guys really need to do a better job when doing your research. Also the article that was pinned to the website about bonus paid to FedEx pilots is incorrect. Those are not bonus. They are part of the sick leave you get paid when you retire.

All of the data for the Atlas Contract Comparison was verified with your union. Since you have already stated that you have no interest in helping correct any errors you see, it looks like you will have to take it up with ALPA.

brn2fly1
10-15-2018, 07:39 AM
All of the data for the Atlas Contract Comparison was verified with your union. Since you have already stated that you have no interest in helping correct any errors you see, it looks like you will have to take it up with ALPA.

Wow, 1224 knows everything! Actually they are the worst union Iíve belonged too. You have no clue how far your contract comparison is off.

JohnBurke
10-15-2018, 08:20 AM
Grundt, gumpscheck, johnny knoxville, and Industry Strd have all posted in this thread with the implication that they are authors of the site under discussion. Different identities of the same person; they all seem to attack other posters in the same manner, use similar language, and reference new material put up or defend the source.

It is full of holes, incidentally, and OAI isn't a cargo company. Not all cargo operators are listed.

Which "author" will attack this time?

mrvmo
10-15-2018, 11:22 AM
I count three errors on the first page of the overall comparison chart for UPS. Not busting balls....just pointing out.

midengineracer
10-16-2018, 08:27 AM
Seems to me, if you can declare an error, you know where it is located in the contract and should be willing to put that information in your post.

IE, FedEX 4.F.2.a Trip rig should be 1:3.75 (yes, that's correct in the comparison they provided)

The OP put up a product, added source material (proof/evidence) and asked for clarification if something is wrong. If you declare something wrong, you should post your proof/evidence. Then it can be verified (either by them or by other people following the thread).


Not sure if the OP is getting revenue, or just did this to help other pilots out. If it is the latter, seems like people on here that are interested in helping out would be more than happy to provide details of the error. If the former is true, it seems like people would still be happy to point out the specific error.


The post stating that per diem was transposed between FedEX and UPS is a pretty good example. In the document I just downloaded, the per diem for FedEX was correct (from FedEX 5.A.1).


Seems like the author wants to fix things that are identified and can be reasonably verified.


If I had personally put all this together, I would ignore claimed errors that weren't provided with a section. I believe it is justified, because I know that I interpreted the data that I presented. Of course, the transposition error, I would go back and check because it is specific enough as well as being a data entry error...

Industry Strnd
10-16-2018, 08:47 AM
Grundt, gumpscheck, johnny knoxville, and Industry Strd have all posted in this thread with the implication that they are authors of the site under discussion. Different identities of the same person; they all seem to attack other posters in the same manner, use similar language, and reference new material put up or defend the source.

It is full of holes, incidentally, and OAI isn't a cargo company. Not all cargo operators are listed.

Which "author" will attack this time?
https://cargofacts.com/atsg-adds-777-platform-through-omni-air-acquisition/

Appears onmi will be a cargo co! Also hard to say the contracts are wrong. So far don't see any contract paragraphs cited that are wrong. I wonder why? And I wonder why people seem to be so angry over data that is being put out to help pilots decide the best place to work and maybe pressure their union to raise the bar. Must be management worried pilots might actually work together!

BoilerUP
10-16-2018, 09:04 AM
The post stating that per diem was transposed between FedEX and UPS is a pretty good example. In the document I just downloaded, the per diem for FedEX was correct (from FedEX 5.A.1).


UPS monthly hourly guarantee, perdiem, international override and rigs are incorrect.

Lockheed
10-16-2018, 09:23 AM
Your math is wrong for K4. 286.28x64x12 = $219,863.04

This has not been fixed

mrvmo
10-16-2018, 11:08 AM
UPS monthly hourly guarantee, perdiem, international override and rigs are incorrect.

Boiler is correct.....those are incorrect.....all the correct figures for these pay categories is on the UPS profile on this website.

mrvmo
10-16-2018, 11:13 AM
https://cargofacts.com/atsg-adds-777-platform-through-omni-air-acquisition/

Appears onmi will be a cargo co! Also hard to say the contracts are wrong. So far don't see any contract paragraphs cited that are wrong. I wonder why? And I wonder why people seem to be so angry over data that is being put out to help pilots decide the best place to work and maybe pressure their union to raise the bar. Must be management worried pilots might actually work together!

Not sure its that conspiratory, and really don't think guys are angry.........it's that some of your numbers are wrong and guys are pointing it out so you can make the correct changes. If one is using this to decide "the best place to work" it should have accurate info....wouldn't you agree?

Industry Strnd
10-16-2018, 12:47 PM
This has not been fixed
Not an error. $286 is the final rate of the cba, not the rate right now! Go to the cba and use the rate now and you will see the chart is correct.

Industry Strnd
10-16-2018, 12:58 PM
Boiler is correct.....those are incorrect.....all the correct figures for these pay categories is on the UPS profile on this website.

So I just crossed checked UPS CBA the rigs list in the cba are what is depicted in the chart, the Perdiem listed in Article 12 is correct in the chart. And the guarantee is corrected in the chart for 12 bid periods. Apears the only mistake is the International override. Which appears to be Fedex.

After mutiple checks the ACMI rates are correct and way short of where they should be. And the retirement it's short too $

Lockheed
10-16-2018, 01:08 PM
Not an error. $286 is the final rate of the cba, not the rate right now! Go to the cba and use the rate now and you will see the chart is correct.

ok
not a problem if thats what you mean to portray - to me it's more meaningful to show all the groups numbers with the best that their current cba's have to offer - just the way I feel - you can make argument either way

however you do use the language below for salary computations
Maximum
Longevity CA
and FO Base
Annual Salary

and very similar language for max pay
Max Captain
Hourly Rate
in CBA

again if thats what you want fine its your deal
and I get that there is limited space - but it could be a little clearer

these are just constructive criticisms
please take it that way

BrownDoubles
10-16-2018, 02:15 PM
So I just crossed checked UPS CBA the rigs list in the cba are what is depicted in the chart, the Perdiem listed in Article 12 is correct in the chart. And the guarantee is corrected in the chart for 12 bid periods. Apears the only mistake is the International override. Which appears to be Fedex.

After mutiple checks the ACMI rates are correct and way short of where they should be. And the retirement it's short too $

4 week guarantee at UPS is 75 hours... not sure how one can conclude that a 12 month equivalent would be less than that.

75 x 13 = 975
975/12 = 81.25

Not sure about the rest but on that glaring point Boiler is correct... as usual.

BoilerUP
10-16-2018, 02:33 PM
So I just crossed checked UPS CBA the rigs list in the cba are what is depicted in the chart, the Perdiem listed in Article 12 is correct in the chart. And the guarantee is corrected in the chart for 12 bid periods. Apears the only mistake is the International override.

The UPS EDW duty rig is 1.5:1, which is not listed on your chart. 12.F.(4)

For Perdiem, you are stopping at the 12.G.(2) charts, without regard for the 12.G.(4) adjustments. Can't necessarily fault you for that as you aren't a UPS pilot, but 2017 rates are on the APC profile for UPS and here are the 2018 rates:

Domestic: $2.60
Europe: $3.45
PacRim: $3.65
International: $3.35

BrownDoubles has addressed the guarantee discrepancy (12.D.1).

JohnBurke
10-16-2018, 02:38 PM
https://cargofacts.com/atsg-adds-777-platform-through-omni-air-acquisition/

Appears onmi will be a cargo co! Also hard to say the contracts are wrong. So far don't see any contract paragraphs cited that are wrong. I wonder why? And I wonder why people seem to be so angry over data that is being put out to help pilots decide the best place to work and maybe pressure their union to raise the bar. Must be management worried pilots might actually work together!

Anger?

Defensive much?

For someone who seeks corrections you keep belittling those who identify the problems, name calling, and making accusations.

No Land 3
10-16-2018, 05:09 PM
Why was this thread even made a sticky?

MarkThyme
10-17-2018, 05:22 AM
Must be management worried pilots might actually work together!

Ah, there it is again - the "management troll" defense.

Find a better argument.

boxguy
10-18-2018, 07:05 AM
To the OP:

I think we all want to use your chart. You've put together lots of data and done a good job organizing it into a readable and usable product.

What I don't understand is your reluctance (and petulance) to adjust incorrect figures. The facts you're asking for are found on this website - look at the airline profiles.

Your responsibility as the creator is to become an expert in knowing where to find the data for each space on the chart. In fact, when I've made similar charts I would note in each chart space where I found the source data. Makes it easy to verify when questions present themselves. I suspect some of your errors are in transposing the data from your collection spot to the chart. Proofread then publish.

Last - Please take criticism in the way it was meant, just to help you get it right. Why would managers want to confuse people on guarantee and pay? It's simply looked up on APC and in each contract. It's easier to obscure the finer points.

Respect

Industry Strnd
10-18-2018, 01:14 PM
To the OP:

I think we all want to use your chart. You've put together lots of data and done a good job organizing it into a readable and usable product.

What I don't understand is your reluctance (and petulance) to adjust incorrect figures. The facts you're asking for are found on this website - look at the airline profiles.

Your responsibility as the creator is to become an expert in knowing where to find the data for each space on the chart. In fact, when I've made similar charts I would note in each chart space where I found the source data. Makes it easy to verify when questions present themselves. I suspect some of your errors are in transposing the data from your collection spot to the chart. Proofread then publish.

Last - Please take criticism in the way it was meant, just to help you get it right. Why would managers want to confuse people on guarantee and pay? It's simply looked up on APC and in each contract. It's easier to obscure the finer points.

Respect

I think they guys who made it are on a 17 day trip to Hong Kong and are looking it over to make changes when they get time to. Looks like the fedex and ups column got interchanged for in a few boxes.

Cujo665
10-21-2018, 06:13 AM
Not an error. $286 is the final rate of the cba, not the rate right now! Go to the cba and use the rate now and you will see the chart is correct.

Guarantee at Omni is wrong for one. There are two.

General - 64 Hrs
Special Programs - 80 Hrs

1/3rd of the fleet is dedicated to special programs. New Hires are able to bid and get it, so it isn't a senior guys only thing. If you want to fly a lot bid the program. If you want to get paid for 64 while flying 25-40 bid general.

If you want to do scheduled airline style flying, bid Vegas.

Lots and lots of soft money hidden everywhere that raises guarantee also without actually flying anything extra.

Cujo665
10-21-2018, 06:16 AM
To the OP:

I think we all want to use your chart. You've put together lots of data and done a good job organizing it into a readable and usable product.

What I don't understand is your reluctance (and petulance) to adjust incorrect figures. The facts you're asking for are found on this website - look at the airline profiles.

Your responsibility as the creator is to become an expert in knowing where to find the data for each space on the chart. In fact, when I've made similar charts I would note in each chart space where I found the source data. Makes it easy to verify when questions present themselves. I suspect some of your errors are in transposing the data from your collection spot to the chart. Proofread then publish.

Last - Please take criticism in the way it was meant, just to help you get it right. Why would managers want to confuse people on guarantee and pay? It's simply looked up on APC and in each contract. It's easier to obscure the finer points.

Respect

I agree. The idea is excellent. The work so far on organizing and presenting has been excellent. Now it's time to clean up the fine details so that it becomes the go to source for comparison. Great start, keep improving it.

Cujo665
10-21-2018, 06:25 AM
https://cargofacts.com/atsg-adds-777-platform-through-omni-air-acquisition/

Appears onmi will be a cargo co!


That is not an accurate statement, it is not in the article you cite at all.
Please keep the info fact based, not opinion based.


If they transfer planes years down the road from passenger to freight, and shift the hull to a different subsidiary that specializes in cargo doe snot reflect the deal under the current CBA.


For your website to have value, it has to be a fact based comparison of today and within the duration of the CBA presented without guessing about possible business model changes.

MarkThyme
10-21-2018, 09:09 AM
If they transfer planes years down the road from passenger to freight, and shift the hull to a different subsidiary that specializes in cargo doe snot reflect the deal under the current CBA.

Who said anything about converting or moving airplanes?

DHL is buying 10 (if memory serves) 777Fs. Omni stands to grow by a few if ATSG manages to secure part of that business.

Cujo665
10-22-2018, 07:12 AM
Who said anything about converting or moving airplanes?

DHL is buying 10 (if memory serves) 777Fs. Omni stands to grow by a few if ATSG manages to secure part of that business.

you're taking it out of context. The article he quoted said nothing of what he was saying.

The post was saying he can't make comparisons based on what "might happen" and that was an example only to dramatize the point.

You're interpretation of them possibly growing from the deal is also speculation. The point I was making wa to keep his comparison website based upon current facts; not opinions.

Grundt
10-31-2018, 02:57 AM
To the OP:

I think we all want to use your chart. You've put together lots of data and done a good job organizing it into a readable and usable product.

What I don't understand is your reluctance (and petulance) to adjust incorrect figures. The facts you're asking for are found on this website - look at the airline profiles.

Your responsibility as the creator is to become an expert in knowing where to find the data for each space on the chart. In fact, when I've made similar charts I would note in each chart space where I found the source data. Makes it easy to verify when questions present themselves. I suspect some of your errors are in transposing the data from your collection spot to the chart. Proofread then publish.

Last - Please take criticism in the way it was meant, just to help you get it right. Why would managers want to confuse people on guarantee and pay? It's simply looked up on APC and in each contract. It's easier to obscure the finer points.

Respect
To be clear, I did not make any of this. I merely shared the link here. The guys that made it read these forums, so feel free to continue posting corrections as necessary.

nitefr8dog
10-31-2018, 12:35 PM
you're taking it out of context. The article he quoted said nothing of what he was saying.

The post was saying he can't make comparisons based on what "might happen" and that was an example only to dramatize the point.


You're interpretation of them possibly growing from the deal is also speculation. The point I was making wa to keep his comparison website based upon current facts; not opinions.
I think most people reading this get the general idea of whats going on at the different airlines even if it's not down to the last penny. Also the correction posts should help to clear up some of it. If someone uses this as their only guide and picks Southern or ABX over Fedex or UPS...100% accuracy would not help that much.

johnny150
12-22-2018, 12:40 PM
https://youtu.be/qKXnDamrrr0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Speakitnow
12-28-2018, 03:28 PM
In present market and retirement rates, today's new hires at FedEx or UPS will be Captain at 10 years if they choose. Don't discount these two contracts additional DCP and DBP compensation which is not insignificant plus higher monthly guarantee hours.
Cant accurately foretell the future at any place though.

I have just worked at both Airlines. Current projection for UPS first upgrade will be 6-7 years and FedEx First wide-body upgrade approximately 8 years.

Speakitnow
12-28-2018, 03:30 PM
My current window is just under 10 years. None of the majors or UPS/FedEx will touch me as Iíve been in the same seat too long and am deemed ďuntrainableĒ. Also my GPA from college was less than a 3.0 (double major, drilling with the Guard, well known tough school). So I would have to go somewhere else first to be trained and ďprove myselfĒ. By the time I am trained elsewhere, get an interview date, maybe a successful interview, put in the pool, get a class date... Iím down to maybe 8 years. With compressed time the advantages diminish.

There are many UPS and FedEx pilots being hired with 6-10 years left in their career. Why would you say you were untrainable?

Noworkallplay
12-28-2018, 04:31 PM
I have just worked at both Airlines. Current projection for UPS first upgrade will be 6-7 years and FedEx First wide-body upgrade approximately 8 years.

FedEx has numerous under 3 year Captains. I bet this next bid will have WB Captain awarded to someone under 5 years. Bid is usually Jan/Feb.

SaltyDog
12-28-2018, 10:05 PM
FedEx has numerous under 3 year Captains. I bet this next bid will have WB Captain awarded to someone under 5 years. Bid is usually Jan/Feb.

How many of the under 3 year pilots are trained and in pay status as Captain?
Thx

AFEDEX
12-31-2018, 11:52 AM
How many of the under 3 year pilots are trained and in pay status as Captain?
Thx

A few dozen. No more than about 40-45.

brn2fly1
01-01-2019, 06:45 PM
I have just worked at both Airlines. Current projection for UPS first upgrade will be 6-7 years and FedEx First wide-body upgrade approximately 8 years.

16-01 bid had a 6yr Airbus Captain, and at least 18 757 captains with less than 18 months. Some had less than a year on property when awarded the upgrade.

brn2fly1
01-01-2019, 06:50 PM
How many of the under 3 year pilots are trained and in pay status as Captain?
Thx

There is probably at least 60 of us that have 3 1/2 years or less. When the 18-01 bid finishes Iíll have less than 4 years on property and will have 80 plus 757 Captains junior to me.

SaltyDog
01-01-2019, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the info.
Good year to all :)

Swedish Blender
03-02-2019, 10:19 AM
just don't want to stay in regional trying to move up...
any help appreciate

It depends.

What are your stats and what is your ultimate goal?

zerozero
03-02-2019, 04:44 PM
hello, just a quick question, need your help and some suggestions,,,,
do you guys think moving from Skywest Airlines to ATLAS, Would be a good move?
I really don't mined night flying or be away from home for 17days, but it looks like there is lot of hidden fees will come off your paycheck,
recently they contact me and now even they providing confirmed ticket with Hotel for my interview

just don't want to stay in regional trying to move up...
any help appreciate

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will give you some advice.

First, you absolutely must do your research about the current pay and work rules in force today. I cannot count how many times people come from the regionals and then complain about the work rules here, saying they are better in the regionals.

If you come and find yourself unpleasantly surprised that's YOUR fault, and of course also the fault of the recruiters who probably misled, or flat out lied to you during the recruitment process.

Second, realize that the company and the union are in a full blown, knock down drag out, gutter fight.

Third, there is a lot of short to medium term uncertainty with the direction of the company, given the influence of Amazon, DHL and the latest crash. You need to be prepared for ANY consequence those three factors may impose on the operation.

If you can handle the low pay, horrible work rules and turbulent (to put it mildly) work environment then come on over, but I highly recommend you keep some other apps updated just in case it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea.

ACMItrash
03-03-2019, 12:28 AM
I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will give you some advice.

First, you absolutely must do your research about the current pay and work rules in force today. I cannot count how many times people come from the regionals and then complain about the work rules here, saying they are better in the regionals.

If you come and find yourself unpleasantly surprised that's YOUR fault, and of course also the fault of the recruiters who probably misled, or flat out lied to you during the recruitment process.

Second, realize that the company and the union are in a full blown, knock down drag out, gutter fight.

Third, there is a lot of short to medium term uncertainty with the direction of the company, given the influence of Amazon, DHL and the latest crash. You need to be prepared for ANY consequence those three factors may impose on the operation.

If you can handle the low pay, horrible work rules and turbulent (to put it mildly) work environment then come on over, but I highly recommend you keep some other apps updated just in case it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea.
Very well said. At ABX close to 50% quit and go back to passenger or their old place of employment once they see how aweful ACMI is. ......and ABX is actually considered to have the best work rules in ACMI. Everyone should do their home work before making a leap!

PurpleToolBox
03-05-2019, 08:50 AM
The truck driver mentality is exactly why most of the Atlas guys were thinking good riddance when you left our union. If you somehow do not see or believe that ATSG, Atlas/Southern, and Kalitta are not in direct competition with UPS and FedEx, then I think we should all be telling you to get a grip.

Whether you realize it or not, Amazon and DHL are using our airlines to go after UPS and FedEx similar to how Southwest went after domestic market share of American, Delta, and United throughout the 1980s and 1990s. If you still don't believe it, I have a sort facility being built in CVG bigger than FedEx in MEM and UPS in SDF combined to sell you.

The ABX and Atlas/Southern pilots do not find it acceptable to allow management to exploit our cheap labor in order to take away high-paying quality jobs at FedEx and UPS. We will continue to fight for industry standard, not just truck driver standard.


While I commend your sentiment regarding the jobs at FedEx and UPS, I have to question the rest of your post.


How in the world is Amazon's CVG sort facility going to rival FedEx's and UPS's -- COMBINED? From what I've read the facility's capability is going to be less than FedEx's. On peak nights FedEx has 150 airplanes flying through the sort and that doesn't include our feeder folks. Even the Indy Hub, which is currently 2.5 million square feet, is scheduled for a $1.5B expansion this year -- the same amount Amazon is spending in CVG. While I agree Amazon is rapidly expanding their logistics capability, I think your comment is greatly exaggerated. Please prove me wrong if I am mistaken.



Second, with reference to Southwest, how is Amazon and DHL "southwesting" FedEx and UPS?

gumpscheck
03-05-2019, 03:13 PM
Second, with reference to Southwest, how is Amazon and DHL "southwesting" FedEx and UPS?

By underpaying and overworking their pilots.

Donít pay any attention to him. Heís been drinking the Kool Aid.

PurpleToolBox
03-06-2019, 01:57 PM
By underpaying and overworking their pilots.

Donít pay any attention to him. Heís been drinking the Kool Aid.

Ah I get it now. I donít want a war with him. That wouldnít be productive here. I was only wondering how the Southwest reference was being applied. Your explanation makes perfect sense. Thank you.