Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Buck Turgidson
10-07-2018, 12:04 PM
The Alaska-Virgin SLI drops in 4 days.

Offered without comment :eek: what is your prediction of the Arbitration Panel's hybrid methodology.

ALOS = Adjusted Length of Service Based List
Status = Status & Category Based List

Poll Choices:

15% ALOS/85% Status (Virgin position)
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 112


30% ALOS/70% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 232

40% ALOS/60% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 318

50% ALOS/50% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 410

60 ALOS/40% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 508

70% ALOS/30% Status (Alaska position)
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 614


Buck Turgidson
10-07-2018, 12:52 PM
Mods--

If you could edit this to make it a public poll (don't need to be logged in) that was my intent. Sorry, first time poster. :confused:

ForeverJunior
10-07-2018, 01:04 PM
Seems like the intent of this thread is to start a flame war.

No one knows what the ISL is going to look like until the 11th. Speculating on the outcome is useless.

Please don't stir the pot. Whatever the list looks like, we'll deal with it and move on.

Here's to unity for Contract 2020 & beyond.


Foofighterpilot
10-07-2018, 01:44 PM
Seems like the intent of this thread is to start a flame war.

No one knows what the ISL is going to look like until the 11th. Speculating on the outcome is useless.

Please don't stir the pot. Whatever the list looks like, we'll deal with it and move on.

Here's to unity for Contract 2020 & beyond.

Amen to that. Its time to come together and release the Kraken!

OCCP
10-07-2018, 02:50 PM
I think the VX pilots will get hosed.

RiddleEagle18
10-07-2018, 03:02 PM
I think the VX pilots will get hosed.



Disagree. I think the AK guys are in for a hard core reality check.

Is this thing for sure coming out or was that a projection?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TransWorld
10-07-2018, 03:27 PM
At least no one will get treated like the TWA FAs in the AA buy out. They were all stapled to the bottom and then all were furloughed. A 40 year TWA FA was below a <1 year AA FA. The McCaskill-Bond law prohibits that from happening again.

The TWA pilots did not fair that much better. The top half (maybe a bit more) got offset by quite a few years. The bottom good portion got stapled and furloughed.

Buck Turgidson
10-07-2018, 03:56 PM
Seems like the intent of this thread is to start a flame war.

No one knows what the ISL is going to look like until the 11th. Speculating on the outcome is useless.

Please don't stir the pot. Whatever the list looks like, we'll deal with it and move on.

Here's to unity for Contract 2020 & beyond.

Not trying to start a flame war. I understand the issue is sensitive. Been there, done that a couple of times.

In my mind, one thing is pretty clear. Neither side will get their position outright. It will be somewhere in between the positions. I selected the 50/50 methodology but would not be surprised if it came down somewhat closer to the Virgin side.

I agree on everything else that you said.

rickair7777
10-07-2018, 04:14 PM
No dog, but the VX proposal is a lot closer to recent precedent...

KnockKnock
10-07-2018, 04:25 PM
I vote 100% WGAF. Itíll be what itíll be and unless you wanna put money on your wagers, itís about as meaningless as playing free fantasy football. May as well auto draft and see what happens ;)

greaser
10-07-2018, 05:00 PM
Steps to improve your sli outcome. I guarantee this will work:

1. Make sure youíre off oct 11 and a few days after. Call out if you have to. Mental health.

2. Go camping somewhere without any internet.

3. Enjoy the company of friends (or solo), do the activity of your choice each day, but be sure to enjoy a beer or three over the camp fire.

Thatís my plan anyway...

OCCP
10-07-2018, 07:11 PM
No dog, but the VX proposal is a lot closer to recent precedent...



It is, but everything related to this merger has been a complete disaster and I expect the sli to be nothing less

jmrg
10-08-2018, 01:35 AM
Disagree. I think the AK guys are in for a hard core reality check.

Is this thing for sure coming out or was that a projection?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hard core reality check???

Would you please explain the context of this hard core reality check that you are prescribing for your fellow pilots?

full of luv
10-08-2018, 05:44 AM
Steps to improve your sli outcome. I guarantee this will work:

1. Make sure youíre off oct 11 and a few days after. Call out if you have to. Mental health.

2. Go camping somewhere without any internet.

3. Enjoy the company of friends (or solo), do the activity of your choice each day, but be sure to enjoy a beer or three over the camp fire.

Thatís my plan anyway...

At this point it's COMPLETELY out of any pilots hands/control so to fret over it any more is wasted mental capacity. As our illustrious Secretary of State Hillary once said:
"at this point, what difference does it make?"

or as Aristotle once said:

"It is what it is~"

Best of all to a brilliant future no matter what the outcome!

EskimoJoe
10-08-2018, 05:58 AM
VX Pilots have already hit a home run. They gambled their working years on a wildcard and it paid off. The loser here is going to be the going concern known as Alaska Air Group.

Ala5ka
10-08-2018, 06:14 AM
Haha a home run. Delta would have been a home run. Alaskaís acquisition is much more like being hit by a pitch and taking your base. VX Pilots have already hit a home run. They gambled their working years on a wildcard and it paid off. The loser here is going to be the going concern known as Alaska Air Group.

ShyGuy
10-08-2018, 06:23 AM
Home run? Base close and commuting 2,200nm weekly and eventual move away from all family/relatives/friends to the west coast isnít a homerun. Just like Ala5ka said, it feels like a free walk to first base after a hit by pitch. As for the SLI there is no point to this thread but Iím in agreement 100% with OCCP.

KnockKnock
10-08-2018, 07:12 AM
Home run? Base close and commuting 2,200nm weekly and eventual move away from all family/relatives/friends to the west coast isnít a homerun. Just like Ala5ka said, it feels like a free walk to first base after a hit by pitch. As for the SLI there is no point to this thread but Iím in agreement 100% with OCCP.
Yeah but that free base came after you had already swung at two pitches in the dirt...just one strike away from losing the game. Look at the bright side, you’re still IN the game. I honestly don’t care or have strong feelings about any of this, I just felt like throwing out more baseball anecdotes because, pilots....

ShyGuy
10-08-2018, 10:00 AM
Yeah but that free base came after you had already swung at two pitches in the dirt...just one strike away from losing the game. Look at the bright side, youíre still IN the game. I honestly donít care or have strong feelings about any of this, I just felt like throwing out more baseball anecdotes because, pilots....

Not really. If it wasn't Alaska it would have been jetBlue. We wouldn't have lost the game, it would still have been play ball.

Excargodog
10-08-2018, 10:31 AM
No dog, but the VX proposal is a lot closer to recent precedent...

Indeed. In fact, 100% relative seniority makes a lot of sense. Everybody basically keeps the relative seniority they have. Nobody gains, nobody loses, other than the losses caused by shutting down the JFK base, which was not a decision the pilots from either group had anything to do with.

And like you, I don't have a dog in this fight.

KnockKnock
10-08-2018, 10:49 AM
Not really. If it wasn't Alaska it would have been jetBlue. We wouldn't have lost the game, it would still have been play ball.
Yeah, I guess you’re right, a foul ball would have kept you in the game...;)

KnockKnock
10-08-2018, 11:00 AM
Home run? Base close and commuting 2,200nm weekly and eventual move away from all family/relatives/friends to the west coast isnít a homerun. Just like Ala5ka said, it feels like a free walk to first base after a hit by pitch. As for the SLI there is no point to this thread but Iím in agreement 100% with OCCP.
You’ve mentioned before that you went to VX prior to JFK ever being a possibility, so hadn’t you already resigned yourself to being on or commuting to the West Coast? Seems like in the long run you’re still at a west coast airline which you agreed to work for on day 1. I hope it works out for all of us and we can ALL be happy one day.

ShyGuy
10-08-2018, 01:41 PM
Youíve mentioned before that you went to VX prior to JFK ever being a possibility, so hadnít you already resigned yourself to being on or commuting to the West Coast? Seems like in the long run youíre still at a west coast airline which you agreed to work for on day 1. I hope it works out for all of us and we can ALL be happy one day.

Yes this is true, canít really deny any of that.


And jetBlue wouldnít have been a foul ball. It would have been buried deep for a grand slam. ;) Okay maybe not a grand slam but at least a 2-run homerun.

KnockKnock
10-08-2018, 02:50 PM
Yes this is true, canít really deny any of that.


And jetBlue wouldnít have been a foul ball. It would have been buried deep for a grand slam. ;) Okay maybe not a grand slam but at least a 2-run homerun.
To each their own. For an East Coast guy, yes, much better scenario. No matter what the outcome is on the 11th, I hope we can all realize that no amount of negativity will change the outcome. A little venting is in order I’m sure but after that, let move forward and make this place better for pilots on both coasts. Oh, and those sprinkled in fly over country :)

miker1
10-08-2018, 03:58 PM
Jesus here we go again. Thanks OP

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

hilltopflyer
10-09-2018, 07:26 AM
So my question would be to the Alaska guys. If you merged with jetblue you would still be fighting for date of hire. What dirt would you try and throw around to prove your point like you are with virgin guys? Profit? Contract? Scope? Just wondering.

Dalda Erlines
10-09-2018, 08:00 AM
So my question would be to the Alaska guys. If you merged with jetblue you would still be fighting for date of hire. What dirt would you try and throw around to prove your point like you are with virgin guys? Profit? Contract? Scope? Just wondering.

Iím just a lurker and someone not affected by this merger...but after AS/VX merge itíll just be AS. So if anything happens with JB then AS will be one large unified pilot group working together. However, it shakes down how it shakes down. Moving forward from there Iím guessing the newer AS (ex-VX) guys will fight for their side as would JB. Itís human nature and itís out of anyoneís hands. Just let go and work together. Fight for a great contact TOGETHER. Division just tears you apart. Donít think for a second management doesnít enjoy watching pilots squabble with each other.

All that to say: donít try and stir up drama hilltop flyer. Promote unity. Bitterness is like drinking rat poison and wating for the rat to die.

KnockKnock
10-09-2018, 09:37 AM
So my question would be to the Alaska guys. If you merged with jetblue you would still be fighting for date of hire. What dirt would you try and throw around to prove your point like you are with virgin guys? Profit? Contract? Scope? Just wondering.
And you’re over here throwing around nonsense hypotheticals why? Don’t you guys have enough drama in your own forums to wet your appetite? Nobody is talking about Jet Blue over here.

Ispeakjive
10-09-2018, 09:58 AM
I vote that I DGAF to squabble about it on here. Golf anyone?

flywest
10-09-2018, 01:43 PM
Indeed. In fact, 100% relative seniority makes a lot of sense. Everybody basically keeps the relative seniority they have. Nobody gains, nobody loses, other than the losses caused by shutting down the JFK base, which was not a decision the pilots from either group had anything to do with.

And like you, I don't have a dog in this fight.

Errr no. Alaska pilots would lose, but we shall see shortly. Good luck to all.

hilltopflyer
10-10-2018, 12:47 AM
Iím just a lurker and someone not affected by this merger...but after AS/VX merge itíll just be AS. So if anything happens with JB then AS will be one large unified pilot group working together. However, it shakes down how it shakes down. Moving forward from there Iím guessing the newer AS (ex-VX) guys will fight for their side as would JB. Itís human nature and itís out of anyoneís hands. Just let go and work together. Fight for a great contact TOGETHER. Division just tears you apart. Donít think for a second management doesnít enjoy watching pilots squabble with each other.

All that to say: donít try and stir up drama hilltop flyer. Promote unity. Bitterness is like drinking rat poison and wating for the rat to die.

No this was pre merger. Just funny to watch Ďlegacyí Alaska guys bad mouth another pilots career and airline. And cause I see us as the best dancing partners long term for each other. So interested how a judge sees this.

Mea25000
10-10-2018, 06:34 AM
50% ALOS
We all just need to grow up and move on. Everyone will complain when they see their new number, Everyone turned out ok

KnockKnock
10-10-2018, 06:46 AM
No this was pre merger. Just funny to watch Ďlegacyí Alaska guys bad mouth another pilots career and airline. And cause I see us as the best dancing partners long term for each other. So interested how a judge sees this.
You wanna stir the pot, do it in your own kitchen. If you think there hasn’t been “badmouthing” from both sides, you’re incredibly biased. Does your husband or wife work for former VX and that’s why you bumble over here and try to be CA save-a-ho*? Go start a scratch fight with you buddy Que in your own forums. We’re working on our own problems with our own pilots.

AwkwardTurtle
10-10-2018, 06:54 AM
Whoís taking over/unders for a 0730 release? 1630?

Snuffaluffagus
10-10-2018, 08:53 AM
I really, really hope this is a vocal minority (on both sides of the pilot group), because management loves that we won't be unified and we need to shape up for contract 2020. The finger poking and my side is better than your side BS needs to stop. It's really pathetic.

Revert
10-10-2018, 09:08 AM
Is the SLI coming out today? Outsider looking in..

Rabid Seagull
10-10-2018, 09:44 AM
Is the SLI coming out today? Outsider looking in..

If ya just looked at the 1st post, it's all the way back...4 pages.

FLowpayFO
10-10-2018, 12:49 PM
Tomorrow will be our new reality. Accept it and move on. What reality we can change is Contract 2020 and this will take unity.

Route66
10-10-2018, 01:58 PM
Tomorrow will be our new reality. Accept it and move on. What reality we can change is Contract 2020 and this will take unity.

From the American Airlines side, kiss LOS goodbye. AS guys are gonna get ďfókedĒ. Let the games begin.

Route66
10-10-2018, 01:59 PM
From the American Airlines side, kiss LOS goodbye. AS guys are gonna get ďfókedĒ. Let the games begin.

Just wondering, will the SLI be ďsecretĒ or will someone have the cojones to post it?

ShyGuy
10-10-2018, 02:05 PM
The actual list should not be publicly posted on a forum. Names, birthdates, etc, sensitive info.

rickair7777
10-10-2018, 02:22 PM
The actual list should not be publicly posted on a forum. Names, birthdates, etc, sensitive info.

This is correct, it will not get posted here. Pilots cannot be named unless they are already in the media, or in a high-profile management job.

conquestdz
10-10-2018, 02:30 PM
50% ALOS
We all just need to grow up and move on. Everyone will complain when they see their new number, Everyone turned out ok

Mea25000's Avatar Mea25000 , 01-24-2018 05:00 PM
1st VX pilot
@ #623
7AS to 1VX to seniority 1100
1AS to 3VX seniority 1100 to 1195
2AS to 1VX seniority 1195 to 1803
DH after that


It seems that your inside info has evolved away from an all out Alaska win towards splitting the proverbial baby.

Flaps1check
10-10-2018, 03:36 PM
Mea25000's Avatar Mea25000 , 01-24-2018 05:00 PM
1st VX pilot
@ #623
7AS to 1VX to seniority 1100
1AS to 3VX seniority 1100 to 1195
2AS to 1VX seniority 1195 to 1803
DH after that


It seems that your inside info has evolved away from an all out Alaska win towards splitting the proverbial baby.

Iím curious on this also MEA. You have been very close before, that is a significant change from your first claim.

PokerPilot007
10-10-2018, 03:39 PM
Mea25000's Avatar Mea25000 , 01-24-2018 05:00 PM
1st VX pilot
@ #623
7AS to 1VX to seniority 1100
1AS to 3VX seniority 1100 to 1195
2AS to 1VX seniority 1195 to 1803
DH after that


It seems that your inside info has evolved away from an all out Alaska win towards splitting the proverbial baby.

Heís dreaming if he thinks ALK pilots will get 50%. 15%-30% is within reality based on past precedence.

Busdriver320
10-10-2018, 03:54 PM
Heís dreaming if he thinks ALK pilots will get 50%. 15%-30% is within reality based on past precedence.

He may have been close with past predictions but this is a very closely held secret by a 3rd party (arbs). Doubt very much it's more than a guess on this one, but if he's right there's some SERIOUS espionage happening here

ShyGuy
10-10-2018, 04:25 PM
This is a pointless thread. The arbitrators are not leaking any information to either side/pilot group. The union expects to receive the result at approx 9am Pacific time, will review it, and then release it to the pilot group by the end of the day. Can't people just wait 24 hrs instead of speculating here?

tomgoodman
10-10-2018, 08:15 PM
This is a pointless thread. The arbitrators are not leaking any information to either side/pilot group. The union expects to receive the result at approx 9am Pacific time, will review it, and then release it to the pilot group by the end of the day. Can't people just wait 24 hrs instead of speculating here?

No, all speculating must be done before the announcement.

Afterward, it will be time for wailing and gnashing of teeth. :rolleyes:

Excargodog
10-10-2018, 09:25 PM
No, all speculating must be done before the announcement.

Afterward, it will be time for wailing and gnashing of teeth. :rolleyes:


Don't forget putting on sackcloth and ashes, and walking out into the city ďwailing loudly and bitterly."

busbusbaby
10-11-2018, 01:46 AM
This is the dumbest fing thread ever!!!!!!!

busbusbaby
10-11-2018, 01:48 AM
The Alaska-Virgin SLI drops in 4 days.

Offered without comment :eek: what is your prediction of the Arbitration Panel's hybrid methodology.

ALOS = Adjusted Length of Service Based List
Status = Status & Category Based List

Poll Choices:

15% ALOS/85% Status (Virgin position)
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 112


30% ALOS/70% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 232

40% ALOS/60% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 318

50% ALOS/50% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 410

60 ALOS/40% Status
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 508

70% ALOS/30% Status (Alaska position)
AS pilots before first VX pilot = 614
90% of your survey is irrelevant. See my previous post.

Bwipilot
10-11-2018, 04:07 AM
Don't forget putting on sackcloth and ashes, and walking out into the city ďwailing loudly and bitterly."

Just don't do it in Portland--they'll think that you're ANTIFA

Mea25000
10-11-2018, 07:47 AM
Itís fair... pretty happy. Sovereign is going to be shocked! Company kinda won again.

CaptCoolHand
10-11-2018, 07:56 AM
Itís fair... pretty happy. Sovereign is going to be shocked! Company kinda won again.

LoL, well that's very... vague :)

glad it turned out fair though.

RiddleEagle18
10-11-2018, 08:11 AM
Sooooo? What was methodology?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ShyGuy
10-11-2018, 08:12 AM
It hasnít been released to the masses. The union is suppose to get it about 12 noon eastern, review with lawyers, etc, and then both sides will do a simultaneous release before end of today.

YXnot
10-11-2018, 08:14 AM
My bud on the MC was still waiting for it as of 11:54 ET. So what does that say..

rickair7777
10-11-2018, 08:22 AM
My bud on the MC was still waiting for it as of 11:54 ET. So what does that say..

It's not 12:00 ET yet?

OCCP
10-11-2018, 08:42 AM
Itís fair... pretty happy. Sovereign is going to be shocked! Company kinda won again.



How exactly does the company win in an sli?

rickair7777
10-11-2018, 08:48 AM
How exactly does the company win in an sli?

If the chips fell in such a manner as to minimize future training events?

YXnot
10-11-2018, 09:07 AM
It's not 12:00 ET yet?

OP's claiming they've seen it are FOS? Or maybe one of the three arbs is actually posting here. Nice!

Mea25000
10-11-2018, 09:23 AM
Itís out... I think your attorney is making everyone cry again😭. You still happy with that Super Attorney YX?

CassinAK
10-11-2018, 09:42 AM
How exactly does the company win in an sli?



Probably seat locks to prevent switching planes for a few years. Less training costs for the company.

lowflying
10-11-2018, 10:13 AM
Probably seat locks to prevent switching planes for a few years. Less training costs for the company.

That can't happen unless the unions signed off on it.

rickair7777
10-11-2018, 10:23 AM
That can't happen unless the unions signed off on it.

Well if one union asked, and the arbitrator awarded, no sign off would be required.

jayme
10-11-2018, 10:36 AM
Itís out... I think your attorney is making everyone cry again😭. You still happy with that Super Attorney YX?

And let the gloating begin.

lowflying
10-11-2018, 10:44 AM
Well if one union asked, and the arbitrator awarded, no sign off would be required.

Well, thankfully they werenít dumb enough to ask I guess none of them were hoping for chief pilot positions..

rickair7777
10-11-2018, 10:50 AM
[MOD INPUT]: Again, please don't publish the new seniority list here.

The arbitration award however is fair game, and would be of interest to other pilots who might be subject to M&A in the future.

Mea25000
10-11-2018, 10:55 AM
Heís dreaming if he thinks ALK pilots will get 50%. 15%-30% is within reality based on past precedence.

Really? Dreaming

ELAC321
10-11-2018, 11:11 AM
"At the time of the merger announcement, ALPA had not yet negotiated a first agreement with Virgin. The Alaska pilot agreement provided significantly better pay, work rules, pension and insurance benefits than the status quo pay and conditions at Virgin America"

VX guys getting pensions now?? Score!

ShyGuy
10-11-2018, 11:17 AM
Itís officially emailed out to the group. 60% longevity weight, 40% status category. First VX guy shows up at #534. As a Feb 2012 VX guy looks like I mixed right into Feb 2012 AS guys. Iím happy with my personal result. But this is gonna be a tough pill for any VX guy hired on/prior to ~2010.

Regardless of the result, hopefully we can put this in the back mirror ASAP and get the elections done and fight for a good contract 2020.

Mea25000
10-11-2018, 11:18 AM
The SLI will keep most if not all VX pilots in current equipment and bases as their seniority will be significantly better there. Company wins, that could have been a huge cost.

Yeah how far off was I one year ago?

The truth we will all be fine. Grow up move on. We need to negotiate significant improvements for all AS pilots moving forward.

Blue label JF

A320 and BBB scared ****less right?

Mea25000
10-11-2018, 11:24 AM
And for most people you can take about 100 numbers from the SLI and that is your new global seniority. Hey itís something

IFlyEm
10-11-2018, 11:25 AM
Itís officially emailed out to the group. 60% longevity weight, 40% status category. First VX guy shows up at #534. As a Feb 2012 VX guy looks like I mixed right into Feb 2012 AS guys. Iím happy with my personal result. But this is gonna be a tough pill for any VX guy hired on/prior to ~2010.

Regardless of the result, hopefully we can put this in the back mirror ASAP and get the elections done and fight for a good contract 2020.

Yep. Going from 25% to 50% is going to be a tough pill to take. It's a screw job for the VX captains. It can be mitigated by keeping the fleets. But if the bus goes away it's going to **** a lot of guys of that were holding weekends and holidays off. Absolutely NONE of the AS captains better be caught *****ing. They all got a significant bump in seniority.

lowflying
10-11-2018, 11:27 AM
The SLI will keep most if not all VX pilots in current equipment and bases as their seniority will be significantly better there. Company wins, that could have been a huge cost.

Yeah how far off was I one year ago?

The truth we will all be fine. Grow up move on. We need to negotiate significant improvements for all AS pilots moving forward.

Blue label JF

A320 and BBB scared ****less right?

It's going to create a long low simmering anger as every Airbus Captain award is filled by a Boeing Captains looking to be number one in base....

4andCounting
10-11-2018, 11:35 AM
Deleted...

VirginEskimo
10-11-2018, 11:55 AM
With line bidding what difference does seniority make to line holding captains? (I understand it has profound implications for those trying to get off reserve or upgrade). Losing PBS is equivalent to a devastating hit in seniority anyway. I havenít seen a single line in sample airbus line bids that wonít profoundly screw up my life. Seniority under line bidding only gets you first bite of the s&*! sandwich.

tomgoodman
10-11-2018, 12:07 PM
The only pilot who has no legitimate beef about a seniority list is #1, but he will beef anyway, because that's what we do. :D

IFlyEm
10-11-2018, 12:20 PM
The only pilot who has no legitimate beef about a seniority list is #1, but he will beef anyway, because that's what we do. :D

I'm going to to say all the senior captains at VX are inclined to disagree. Aside of a pay increase, which both pilot groups benefited from, the VX pilots have been nothing but harmed. QOL, base closure, loss of seniority, line bidding, 737, etc. There really hasn't been any real positive for the VX guys.

OCCP
10-11-2018, 12:31 PM
How many pilots total do we have now?

benzoate
10-11-2018, 12:37 PM
Will VX Captains be forced out of seat? Was the integration 1 for 2(3)? Can any of you elaborate?

tomgoodman
10-11-2018, 12:53 PM
I'm going to to say all the senior captains at VX are inclined to disagree. Aside of a pay increase, which both pilot groups benefited from, the VX pilots have been nothing but harmed. QOL, base closure, loss of seniority, line bidding, 737, etc. There really hasn't been any real positive for the VX guys.

Were not most of those things caused by the merger itself, prior to any SLI? :confused:

lowflying
10-11-2018, 01:15 PM
Will VX Captains be forced out of seat? Was the integration 1 for 2(3)? Can any of you elaborate?
No one can be forced out of their seat. The arbitrator put the most senior vx below the first 550ish AK pilots and then mixed in the vx guys based on a formula that doesn't appear to be very favorable to VX.

IFlyEm
10-11-2018, 01:26 PM
Were not most of those things caused by the merger itself, prior to any SLI? :confused:

True. And moral is at an all time low. The SLI is just another slap on the face.

4andCounting
10-11-2018, 01:26 PM
No one can be forced out of their seat. The arbitrator put the most senior vx below the first 550ish AK pilots and then mixed in the vx guys based on a formula that doesn't appear to be very favorable to VX.

Well, we dont know that to be completely true on the seat protection. My guess is as soon as they start moving airplanes and opening and closing bases all bets are off and the VX Xaptains are screwed.

All Bizniz
10-11-2018, 01:29 PM
Were not most of those things caused by the merger itself, prior to any SLI? :confused:

I think his intention was to make the point that this ISL award just added insult to injury when all the other things he listed are considered..

Given a choice, I think the overwhelming majority of VX pilots would have never traded their position at VX for the position we're in right now and with the prospects of it getting worse...

And I'm not hating the players (fellow legacy AS pilots), I'm hating the game.. 😩 lol

RiddleEagle18
10-11-2018, 02:06 PM
[MOD INPUT]: Again, please don't publish the new seniority list here.



The arbitration award however is fair game, and would be of interest to other pilots who might be subject to M&A in the future.



Anyone care to post the arbitration award portion? Would love to read the arbitrators reasoning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hilltopflyer
10-11-2018, 02:13 PM
Anyone care to post the arbitration award portion? Would love to read the arbitrators reasoning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How many pilots were in each list before hand.

MusicPilot
10-11-2018, 02:23 PM
Anyone want to send me a good study guide for that 321. PM me thanks

Well, itís the same as the 320 (because youíre that smart and you knew that) and the odds of flying it are few and far between. According to people attending to the wannabe koolaid sessions itíll be gone soon anyway. Itís probably best to stop the gloating while youíre ahead.

plt32173
10-11-2018, 02:35 PM
Well, we dont know that to be completely true on the seat protection. My guess is as soon as they start moving airplanes and opening and closing bases all bets are off and the VX Xaptains are screwed.

Yes they do. Check out the C&R regarding captains being displaced. Better language then either VX or As proposed regarding protections.
Most in the bottom 50% VX are pleased. Several did better then the proposal VX gave.

To put it simply. Guys that couldnít hold Airbus captain now have 73 captains below them.

IFlyEm
10-11-2018, 02:39 PM
Well, itís the same as the 320 (because youíre that smart and you knew that) and the odds of flying it are few and far between. According to people attending to the wannabe koolaid sessions itíll be gone soon anyway. Itís probably best to stop the gloating while youíre ahead.

He'll need it. From what I understand he's weak in the 37. He'll need all the help he can get to get through His training. 😂

OTZeagle1
10-11-2018, 02:39 PM
Well, itís the same as the 320 (because youíre that smart and you knew that) and the odds of flying it are few and far between. According to people attending to the wannabe koolaid sessions itíll be gone soon anyway. Itís probably best to stop the gloating while youíre ahead.

Give me a break, very few if any will bid the 320. I think you guys did pretty good, most of the next 200 upgrades will be VX pilots? Am I missing something. I think if I were a VX FO I would be dancing in the street!

MusicPilot
10-11-2018, 02:47 PM
Give me a break, very few if any will bid the 320. I think you guys did pretty good, most of the next 200 upgrades will be VX pilots? Am I missing something. I think if I were a VX FO I would be dancing in the street!

The VX CAís got the big firehose. Not sure what youíre looking at. As far as the FOs? Pretty much even steven. No dancing nothing. Besides, the VX FOs did have a lot to lose compared to AS. Now itís time to sew the wounds up and ban together and conquer.

coolyokeluke
10-11-2018, 03:50 PM
You must be new to this internet thingyThis is the dumbest fing thread ever!!!!!!!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

OTZeagle1
10-11-2018, 04:30 PM
He'll need it. From what I understand he's weak in the 37. He'll need all the help he can get to get through His training. 😂

Ha, this is probably true. However, a lot of you 320 FOís are about to get a 737 CA position very soon. I will be the one making sure you get through the program, making sure you get a fair deal, making sure itís a good experience for you, making sure your comfortable in your new seat and in your new aircraft. I really do want to see you all do well!

ELAC321
10-11-2018, 04:36 PM
Ha, this is probably true. However, a lot of you 320 FOís are about to get a 737 CA position very soon. I will be the one making sure you get through the program, making sure you get a fair deal, making sure itís a good experience for you, making sure your comfortable in your new seat and in your new aircraft. I really do want to see you all do well!

When can VX guys bid the 737

ImperialxRat
10-11-2018, 04:39 PM
When can VX guys bid the 737

I think I heard somewhere that the next bid will be in December.

Packrat
10-11-2018, 04:47 PM
To put it simply. Guys that couldnít hold Airbus captain now have 73 captains below them.

Simple. They should bid the first 737 system upgrade bid. Problem solved.

Scoop
10-11-2018, 05:00 PM
When can VX guys bid the 737


As a 737 guy with thousands of hours my only question is why?


I guess if you like:

Bumping your head on the overhead.
A choice between recline or aft movement of the seat.
The very exhilarating sound of air - lots and lots of very loud air.

A choice of too hot or too cold for the cabin.
Getting very intimate (not by choice) with any unfortunate jumpseat riders.
Aviation nostalgia (AKA 737 overhead panel).
The challenge worthy of a gymnast getting in and out of your seat.
The worlds smallest Lav - with a bonus toilet seat that will not stay up.
A VNAV system that will keep you on your toes.


I guess to be totally fair bumping your head on the overhead only applies to Pilots taller than 4' 11".


Only kidding :D (sort of) the 737 is fun to fly. Good luck to all the Alaska Pilots! :)


Scoop

CassinAK
10-11-2018, 07:20 PM
Iím legacy AS and I ended up in a worse position than the AS proposal and the VX proposal. Iíd have been better off if Alaska ALPA has just taken Virgins proposal.

I love arbitration!!!! Iím so tired of all the winning we are doing!

OCCP
10-11-2018, 08:06 PM
I was expecting the arbitration to fall somewhere between each proposal but they definitely did their own thing. Some people are better off now than both proposals and others are worse. I wasnít expecting it to turn out the way it did.

AltoCumulus
10-12-2018, 01:46 PM
I was expecting the arbitration to fall somewhere between each proposal but they definitely did their own thing. Some people are better off now than both proposals and others are worse. I wasnít expecting it to turn out the way it did.

Not sure how it wasnít ďbetween the twoĒ.

Going into arbitration both sides agreed on the method. The two sides agreed that each pilot would be scored. To simplify, two seniority lists are made, one based entirely on longevity, the other based on relative position. Each pilot receives a score based on where they appear on each of the two seniority list. For the easiest example #1 VX is #1 based on relative position so he gets 2500 (-ish total pilots VX+AS) points for RP. For the longevity score a 2006 hire on a DOH-only list would put you at about 1000. That would give #1 VX about 1500 points for longevity.

This is what the arbitrators decided yesterday. The weighting that was decided was 60% longevity and 40% RP. So...in our estimated data above...VX#1 = (2500*.4)+(1500*.6)

=1000+900=1900 which is 1900 from bottom which means 600 in this example.

Checking the actual award he ended up at 534 so this quick estimate is pretty close. This formula is applied to every pilot going down the list and there you have it.

Alaska asked for 70% longevity weighting, VX asked for 15% longevity...the arbitrators decided that 60% was going to be the number.

Additionally, AS asked that for the last 25%-ish of the list that we should switch to a ratio formula for the bottom 25% of pilots. The arbitrators squashed that notion and said the formula was to be used for the entire seniority list.

Basically in my opinion, AS ďwonĒ much of the battle at the top of the list and VX won the battle at the bottom. I was hired at AS 12 years ago and am one junior to a VX that was hired at VX 8 years ago. I was going to retire at AS in the top 40 and now Iíll be lucky to crack the top 250.

I think the arbitrators did a good job. If VX had prevailed in their position I would be around 130 more junior. If AS had won there position outright I would have gained about 40 positions. So it could have been slightly better but it could have been much worse. This feels like a divorce-I am exhausted and I am glad it is behind me and just want to get on with my life.

CassinAK
10-12-2018, 02:02 PM
Not sure how it wasnít ďbetween the twoĒ.



Going into arbitration both sides agreed on the method. The two sides agreed that each pilot would be scored. To simplify, two seniority lists are made, one based entirely on longevity, the other based on relative position. Each pilot receives a score based on where they appear on each of the two seniority list. For the easiest example #1 VX is #1 based on relative position so he gets 2500 (-ish total pilots VX+AS) points for RP. For the longevity score a 2006 hire on a DOH-only list would put you at about 1000. That would give #1 VX about 1500 points for longevity.



This is what the arbitrators decided yesterday. The weighting that was decided was 60% longevity and 40% RP. So...in our estimated data above...VX#1 = (2500*.4)+(1500*.6)



=1000+900=1900 which is 1900 from bottom which means 600 in this example.



Checking the actual award he ended up at 534 so this quick estimate is pretty close. This formula is applied to every pilot going down the list and there you have it.



Alaska asked for 70% longevity weighting, VX asked for 15% longevity...the arbitrators decided that 60% was going to be the number.



Additionally, AS asked that for the last 25%-ish of the list that we should switch to a ratio formula for the bottom 25% of pilots. The arbitrators squashed that notion and said the formula was to be used for the entire seniority list.



Basically in my opinion, AS ďwonĒ much of the battle at the top of the list and VX won the battle at the bottom. I was hired at AS 12 years ago and am one junior to a VX that was hired at VX 8 years ago. I was going to retire at AS in the top 40 and now Iíll be lucky to crack the top 250.



I think the arbitrators did a good job. If VX had prevailed in their position I would be around 130 more junior. If AS had won there position outright I would have gained about 40 positions. So it could have been slightly better but it could have been much worse. This feels like a divorce-I am exhausted and I am glad it is behind me and just want to get on with my life.



Iíve been at AS for 6 years and got a number that was worse than the AS or VX proposal. So for people in my seniority the result was not between the two. Is it a big difference? No. But itís still not between the two proposals.

plt32173
10-12-2018, 03:40 PM
Iíve been at AS for 6 years and got a number that was worse than the AS or VX proposal. So for people in my seniority the result was not between the two. Is it a big difference? No. But itís still not between the two proposals.

The AS proposal decided to divert from the harmony method when they hit 50%. They also proposed to staple 10% of the VXers. The arbitrators called BS and used the harmony method all the way down which favored most of the VXers hired in the last 7 years. In some cases they landed higher then the VX and AS proposal.

miker1
10-12-2018, 04:05 PM
As a 737 guy with thousands of hours my only question is why?


I guess if you like:

Bumping your head on the overhead.
A choice between recline or aft movement of the seat.
The very exhilarating sound of air - lots and lots of very loud air.

A choice of too hot or too cold for the cabin.
Getting very intimate (not by choice) with any unfortunate jumpseat riders.
Aviation nostalgia (AKA 737 overhead panel).
The challenge worthy of a gymnast getting in and out of your seat.
The worlds smallest Lav - with a bonus toilet seat that will not stay up.
A VNAV system that will keep you on your toes.


I guess to be totally fair bumping your head on the overhead only applies to Pilots taller than 4' 11".


Only kidding :D (sort of) the 737 is fun to fly. Good luck to all the Alaska Pilots! :)


ScoopHaha he's right!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

ShyGuy
10-12-2018, 09:17 PM
I have to admit I'm impressed with the amount of professionalism and civility I've seen here since the result came out. Not gonna lie, I thought there'd be at least one guy to go off the reservation... :D


Good job guys! Lets show 'em we're ready for 2020.

O2pilot
10-12-2018, 10:09 PM
I was going to retire at AS in the top 40 and now Iíll be lucky to crack the top 250

Until the next merger. Hopefully youíll be able to stay within the top 500 after that one.

tomgoodman
10-13-2018, 06:32 AM
I have to admit I'm impressed with the amount of professionalism and civility I've seen here since the result came out.

I agree. Both pilot groups deserve credit, and their unity will be important in the next contract negotiation. 👍

Ala5ka
10-13-2018, 07:09 AM
So far the most immature and inflammatory trash talk has come from two of the legacy Alaska wives who are spouting ill informed nonsense in the Alaska pilots and families Facebook page. Someone needs to take their computers from them.

KnockKnock
10-13-2018, 08:43 AM
So far the most immature and inflammatory trash talk has come from two of the legacy Alaska wives who are spouting ill informed nonsense in the Alaska pilots and families Facebook page. Someone needs to take their computers from them.

Probably the same wife that told a pilot to take off their orange lanyard. Those poor women have no lives outside of their husbands "position". They talk more shop then a bunch of pilots at a 4th of July party! I pitty them and my wife can't stand them.

VirginEskimo
10-13-2018, 09:32 AM
So far the most immature and inflammatory trash talk has come from two of the legacy Alaska wives who are spouting ill informed nonsense in the Alaska pilots and families Facebook page. Someone needs to take their computers from them.

I've noticed that if you want to know what a pilot REALLY thinks about a contentious inter-pilot issue, talk to the person they're sleeping with. In my experience, they give you the straight scoop! Furthermore, what anyone thinks about the ISL is irrelevant as long as we remain civil to each other and unified for 2020. Having said that, I am also pleasantly impressed with the civility I've seen since the announcement. I jumpseated on a Boeing last night and was treated very graciously by the crew.

Ala5ka
10-13-2018, 11:25 AM
You and me both brother. Probably the same wife that told a pilot to take off their orange lanyard. Those poor women have no lives outside of their husbands "position". They talk more shop then a bunch of pilots at a 4th of July party! I pitty them and my wife can't stand them.

Mea25000
10-13-2018, 02:19 PM
I have to admit I'm impressed with the amount of professionalism and civility I've seen here since the result came out. Not gonna lie, I thought there'd be at least one guy to go off the reservation... :D


Good job guys! Lets show 'em we're ready for 2020.

I think it really does speak to the quality of individuals we really have at one company now. This was an impossible SLI, merging polar opposite companies when we were forced together. I think people are finally getting it. We are all going to be fine and we are way better off unified fighting against management then fighting amongst ourselves.

Max Thrust
10-13-2018, 03:09 PM
I am also pleasantly impressed with the civility I've seen since the announcement. I jumpseated on a Boeing last night and was treated very graciously by the crew.

Cause they received a windfall of stolen seniority?

ShyGuy
10-13-2018, 03:53 PM
:rolleyes:

OCCP
10-13-2018, 04:53 PM
I think it really does speak to the quality of individuals we really have at one company now. This was an impossible SLI, merging polar opposite companies when we were forced together. I think people are finally getting it. We are all going to be fine and we are way better off unified fighting against management then fighting amongst ourselves.



I agree. I met a few 737 guys in sfo yesterday and they were really pleasant and ready to fight for our future

And if I ever see Knockknock in person Iíll buy him a beer!

ZINTKAZ
10-13-2018, 05:38 PM
After years of being a Captain I was forced to take that stupid ďWearing the Fourth StripeĒ there was about 10 VX pilots attending.I must say hangin with you all made that conference much easier to bear and every interaction Iíve had with any VX crews for that matter were pleasant. Except for the one [email protected]#$#-t at the SFO Hilton bar that was running his mouth off. But AS has lotsa those types too. We are all one group now and can move on. Just my 1.5 cents.

Beta82
10-13-2018, 06:10 PM
I have to admit I'm impressed with the amount of professionalism and civility I've seen here since the result came out. Not gonna lie, I thought there'd be at least one guy to go off the reservation... :D


Good job guys! Lets show 'em we're ready for 2020.

Most of the guys I flew with didn't care much about the SLI, they were more worried about the SH!T contract we are about to inherit. That's going to affect their QOL way more than a few numbers above or below them. Hope the company is ready for a fight with 800 guys and girls that have no sympathy for company propaganda.

KnockKnock
10-13-2018, 06:29 PM
I agree. I met a few 737 guys in sfo yesterday and they were really pleasant and ready to fight for our future

And if I ever see Knockknock in person Iíll buy him a beer!
Oh sweet baby Jesus, I could use that beer right now! Don’t move a muscle, I’ll come to you. Cheers Brother!! ����

flightbag
10-13-2018, 08:13 PM
After years of being a Captain I was forced to take that stupid ďWearing the Fourth StripeĒ there was about 10 VX pilots attending.I must say hangin with you all made that conference much easier to bear and every interaction Iíve had with any VX crews for that matter were pleasant. Except for the one [email protected]#$#-t at the SFO Hilton bar that was running his mouth off. But AS has lotsa those types too. We are all one group now and can move on. Just my 1.5 cents.


I have a couple of VX friends. They might be civil here, but they talk sh*t about you AS folks in private. They expect another windfall with the seniority integration.

OCCP
10-13-2018, 08:38 PM
I have a couple of VX friends. They might be civil here, but they talk sh*t about you AS folks in private. They expect another windfall with the seniority integration.



What????? Integration already happened two days ago. It is what it is. Weíre all one team now. No one got a windfall. Itís all good. Donít stir the pot and worry about your own future.

ZINTKAZ
10-13-2018, 08:39 PM
I have a couple of VX friends. They might be civil here, but they talk sh*t about you AS folks in private. They expect another windfall with the seniority integration.

Old news, list integration is done. Besides if any coworkers talk sh#t about me or other AS folk then so what. Everybody has an opinion or judgement on the crap going on here. But thanks for pointing that out!LOL

ImperialxRat
10-13-2018, 09:01 PM
I had two VX guys on the jumpseat this morning. We all got along great - nice guys. Nobody wanted this merger (pilots), it just is what it is and most people realize that.

flightbag
10-14-2018, 10:15 AM
What????? Integration already happened two days ago. It is what it is. Weíre all one team now. No one got a windfall. Itís all good. Donít stir the pot and worry about your own future.


OK, I'll give you that as my last contact was over a week ago.



I certainly hope you're all one team now, however, my previous life dictates otherwise. I still don't think the USAir/America West folks will ever be over it. I still hear schiess about that one.

450knotOffice
10-14-2018, 11:06 AM
The US/AW situation was a whole world more caustic than the normal sniping between two pilot groups trying to merge a list. WAY more caustic.

With that said, most seem to have left it behind.

Route66
10-18-2018, 07:27 AM
From a LUS person looking in from the outside:

What percentage of the total pilots believe the integration to be ďfairĒ?

Of those that think the integration ďunfairĒ, what percentage of that group do you believe will be detrimental to getting a new contract?

Iím only asking AS/VX Pilots.

Mea25000
10-18-2018, 08:07 AM
From a LUS person looking in from the outside:

What percentage of the total pilots believe the integration to be ďfairĒ?

Of those that think the integration ďunfairĒ, what percentage of that group do you believe will be detrimental to getting a new contract?

Iím only asking AS/VX Pilots.

Perfect, just what we need, please go look from the outside at someone else. We all really appreciate your concern. Move along, your post will only divide. Of course some are really happy, some are upset, and some are in deferent.

Spending our days dwelling on the past, we will only find ourselves destroying our own careers like you all did for almost a decade.

We are now focused on our pilot group as a whole. Schedules, pay, job security. United, we will secure all of our careers, all of our futures.

Top 600 AS = 😃
Top 300 VX = 🙁
600-1200 AS = 😐
300-650 VX = 😃
1200-1800 AS = 🙁
650-850 VX = 😐
1800-2050 AS = 😐

When we secure our next contract in 2020, all AS pilots will feel much more 😀

CassinAK
10-18-2018, 09:40 AM
Perfect, just what we need, please go look from the outside at someone else. We all really appreciate your concern. Move along, your post will only divide. Of course some are really happy, some are upset, and some are in deferent.



Spending our days dwelling on the past, we will only find ourselves destroying our own careers like you all did for almost a decade.



We are now focused on our pilot group as a whole. Schedules, pay, job security. United, we will secure all of our careers, all of our futures.



Top 600 AS = [emoji2]

Top 300 VX = [emoji853]

600-1200 AS = [emoji52]

300-650 VX = [emoji2]

1200-1800 AS = [emoji853]

650-850 VX = [emoji52]

1800-2050 AS = [emoji52]



When we secure our next contract in 2020, all AS pilots will feel much more [emoji3]



I think your emoji representation fits perfectly. Now if 2020 = [emoji2] then all is good!

Route66
10-18-2018, 09:44 AM
Perfect, just what we need, please go look from the outside at someone else. We all really appreciate your concern. Move along, your post will only divide. Of course some are really happy, some are upset, and some are in deferent.

Spending our days dwelling on the past, we will only find ourselves destroying our own careers like you all did for almost a decade.

We are now focused on our pilot group as a whole. Schedules, pay, job security. United, we will secure all of our careers, all of our futures.

Top 600 AS = 😃
Top 300 VX = 🙁
600-1200 AS = 😐
300-650 VX = 😃
1200-1800 AS = 🙁
650-850 VX = 😐
1800-2050 AS = 😐

When we secure our next contract in 2020, all AS pilots will feel much more 😀

Well then letís just forget the past and weíll learn to do the same thing over and over.

However, please indulge me one more time and give us the DOH/LOS range for each of the aforementioned groups.

coolyokeluke
10-18-2018, 01:00 PM
Agreed. Some pilots tried to reason with them. But that only works if both sides agree on the ground rules of facts and logic. I'd be so embarrassed if my wife did anything like that.So far the most immature and inflammatory trash talk has come from two of the legacy Alaska wives who are spouting ill informed nonsense in the Alaska pilots and families Facebook page. Someone needs to take their computers from them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

PNWFlyer
10-18-2018, 02:14 PM
From a LUS person looking in from the outside:

What percentage of the total pilots believe the integration to be ďfairĒ?

Of those that think the integration ďunfairĒ, what percentage of that group do you believe will be detrimental to getting a new contract?

Iím only asking AS/VX Pilots.

Best I can tell the top 2/3 of VX think it is unfair and the middle 1/3 of AS.

So that is about 1,000 pilots of a group ok abodut 3,000 now.

None will that think it is unfair will be detrimental. The top of the AS List that was unaffected has historically been detrimental to our contacts.

Route66
10-18-2018, 02:57 PM
Best I can tell the top 2/3 of VX think it is unfair and the middle 1/3 of AS.

So that is about 1,000 pilots of a group ok abodut 3,000 now.

None will that think it is unfair will be detrimental. The top of the AS List that was unaffected has historically been detrimental to our contacts.

Yeah. Historically you are correct. The senior care only about themselves.

Mea25000
10-18-2018, 04:42 PM
Best I can tell the top 2/3 of VX think it is unfair and the middle 1/3 of AS.

So that is about 1,000 pilots of a group ok abodut 3,000 now.

None will that think it is unfair will be detrimental. The top of the AS List that was unaffected has historically been detrimental to our contacts.

Uh that is really bad math

If 2/3 of VX pilots donít like the SLI that =Ďs 561 pilots

And if 1/3 of AS thinks itís unfair, that =Ďs 676 pilots

Grand total between the two companies that donít like the SLI, if you are correct then is 1,237 pilots.

If your assumptions are correct then a majority or 1,633 pilots on the new seniority list think the SLI is fair

ShyGuy
10-18-2018, 04:57 PM
I donít think it was unfair when you consider this SLI is a direct result of the 2010 change to the ALPA merger policy which came about after the US/AW debacle. ďLongevityĒ was thrown in now as one of the 3 tenets for consideration with no particular weight. With status/category the same and very similar career expectations, the only tenet left that could play a large role was longevity. That ended up happening here.

I donít buy the notion that this SLI fault is the management responsibility since they bought a carrier and merged us. Thatís true but the SLI process is an entirely union thing for an ALPA-ALPA merger. Management did not assess us $1 million dollars for SLI. The union did. And we went through a union-approved process with union-approved language and arbitration procedures. The final result is a product of ALPA and its merger policy procedures.

Iím just glad we voted in ALPA in the nick of time. If you thought this SLI result was bad, you should try it without ALPA.

Route66
10-19-2018, 12:31 AM
I donít think it was unfair when you consider this SLI is a direct result of the 2010 change to the ALPA merger policy which came about after the US/AW debacle. ďLongevityĒ was thrown in now as one of the 3 tenets for consideration with no particular weight. With status/category the same and very similar career expectations, the only tenet left that could play a large role was longevity. That ended up happening here.

I donít buy the notion that this SLI fault is the management responsibility since they bought a carrier and merged us. Thatís true but the SLI process is an entirely union thing for an ALPA-ALPA merger. Management did not assess us $1 million dollars for SLI. The union did. And we went through a union-approved process with union-approved language and arbitration procedures. The final result is a product of ALPA and its merger policy procedures.

Iím just glad we voted in ALPA in the nick of time. If you thought this SLI result was bad, you should try it without ALPA.

Union approved. Time no longer measures your value. Quickest pilot to the front door with the handout wins. As I was trying to get answered, how many years of service did the first group of VX guys/gals have in comparison the the next group of AS guys/gals. Just answer THAT question and youíll have your answer of unity when the tables turn for the new AS.

Iím trying to say that we have the same problem here at the new AA. The company will give us a contract, youíre just not going to get what you think YOU deserve.

Route66
10-19-2018, 12:35 AM
Top 600 AS = 😃
Top 300 VX = 🙁
___________________

600-1200 AS = 😐
___________________
300-650 VX = 😃
1200-1800 AS = 🙁
650-850 VX = 😐
1800-2050 AS = 😐


Thatís where I think your Achilles heel is. The company knows it.

ShyGuy
10-19-2018, 07:26 AM
Union approved. Time no longer measures your value. Quickest pilot to the front door with the handout wins. As I was trying to get answered, how many years of service did the first group of VX guys/gals have in comparison the the next group of AS guys/gals. Just answer THAT question and youíll have your answer of unity when the tables turn for the new AS.

Iím trying to say that we have the same problem here at the new AA. The company will give us a contract, youíre just not going to get what you think YOU deserve.

Most senior AS hired 1979, VX 2006. First 533 positions on list went to the first 533 AS pilots only. First VX pilot showed up at 534 and was slotted next to a March 1998 hire of AS.

PNWFlyer
10-19-2018, 07:54 AM
Uh that is really bad math

If 2/3 of VX pilots don’t like the SLI that =‘s 561 pilots

And if 1/3 of AS thinks it’s unfair, that =‘s 676 pilots

Grand total between the two companies that don’t like the SLI, if you are correct then is 1,237 pilots.

If your assumptions are correct then a majority or 1,633 pilots on the new seniority list think the SLI is fair

Yes, my math was bad. It was done with whole numbers and on the run. He wasn't asking for a scientific study.

and a majority do think it is fair since the top 533 were not touched and most at the bottom were DOH. Hard to argue with DOH.

Baradium
10-19-2018, 07:55 AM
Most senior AS hired 1979, VX 2006. First 533 positions on list went to the first 533 AS pilots only. First VX pilot showed up at 534 and was slotted next to a March 1998 hire of AS.

Is the 1998 hire the next one below? Depending on how hiring panned out for AS, it could be a significant difference between above and below. He was asking for the next AS group below.

PNWFlyer
10-19-2018, 08:05 AM
Is the 1998 hire the next one below? Depending on how hiring panned out for AS, it could be a significant difference between above and below. He was asking for the next AS group below.

This gives you an idea of how it went down. (see attached)

Mea25000
10-19-2018, 08:48 AM
VXís first ten showed up at
#
534
538
540
585
587
590
593
596
598
601

Mea25000
10-19-2018, 08:55 AM
Thatís where I think your Achilles heel is. The company knows it.

Huh, are you really a pilot? Who are you Sherlock Holmes? Good find, all your hard work investigating our IPSL is really starting to pay off. All on your own, without any help, you may have just discovered that you are a moron.

Mea25000
10-19-2018, 09:07 AM
Union approved. Time no longer measures your value. Quickest pilot to the front door with the handout wins. As I was trying to get answered, how many years of service did the first group of VX guys/gals have in comparison the the next group of AS guys/gals. Just answer THAT question and youíll have your answer of unity when the tables turn for the new AS.

Iím trying to say that we have the same problem here at the new AA. The company will give us a contract, youíre just not going to get what you think YOU deserve.

WHAT? Please run along and play. This is nonsense. Keep working hard at American, seems like you are really hot on the trail. You have a brilliant mind for discovering the undiscoverable clues.

Mea25000
10-19-2018, 10:10 AM
Longevity disparities:

1998 starts at 8 years

AS did very little hiring 2002-2005

By 2006 it is down 2.5 years

Some weird disparities after this period because AS had a furlough

By 2012 the disparity is normalized

Itís done, itís fair, we must move on

Route66
10-19-2018, 02:42 PM
WHAT? Please run along and play. This is nonsense. Keep working hard at American, seems like you are really hot on the trail. You have a brilliant mind for discovering the undiscoverable clues.

Sounds like SOMEONE is "testy". No matter. Time will tell.

Enjoy "the ride".

tomgoodman
10-19-2018, 03:40 PM
Sounds like SOMEONE is "testy". No matter. Time will tell.

Enjoy "the ride".

Give Ďem a break! They are dealing with their SLI better than most pilot groups (including my own) did. :)

IFlyNFish
10-19-2018, 04:42 PM
Union approved. Time no longer measures your value. Quickest pilot to the front door with the handout wins. As I was trying to get answered, how many years of service did the first group of VX guys/gals have in comparison the the next group of AS guys/gals. Just answer THAT question and youíll have your answer of unity when the tables turn for the new AS.

Iím trying to say that we have the same problem here at the new AA. The company will give us a contract, youíre just not going to get what you think YOU deserve.




Why do YOU care. Looking at your posts in your forums, there is little constructive and a lot of negative.

As demonstrated by most in this group, we are ready to move on.

Clearly that hasnít happened for you. Go back to your hole. Misery loves company and we donít need it.

450knotOffice
10-19-2018, 09:25 PM
Why do YOU care. Looking at your posts in your forums, there is little constructive and a lot of negative.

As demonstrated by most in this group, we are ready to move on.

Clearly that hasnít happened for you. Go back to your hole. Misery loves company and we donít need it.

Nailed it with this guy. Heís admitted heíd cross a picket line, so...

Baradium
10-19-2018, 09:26 PM
This gives you an idea of how it went down. (see attached)

I can't read that, sorry.

Route66
10-20-2018, 02:40 AM
Nailed it with this guy. Heís admitted heíd cross a picket line, so...

Never crossed a picket line. But Iíve killed ticks before.

I suppose you must be false media.

Look, you guys are the ones who have to get a contract. So do the American pilots, along with eventually everyone else.

Reality check: how strong are the pilots unity at AS to get that contract? (Same goes for the other carriers)

Photoflier
10-20-2018, 04:46 AM
Never crossed a picket line. But Iíve killed ticks before.

I suppose you must be false media.

Look, you guys are the ones who have to get a contract. So do the American pilots, along with eventually everyone else.

Reality check: how strong are the pilots unity at AS to get that contract? (Same goes for the other carriers)

As a LUS guy, I think you should probably do more listening and less talking. These AS/VX pilots have done a remarkable job of keeping calm, civil, and unified through this process. I suspect this professionalism will serve them well as they try to fix the arbitration results of their combined contract.

The LUS seniority integration cost the pilot profession millions. That cruddy contract that you guys lived under for, what, a decade? kept downward pressure on wages and work rules for the rest of the industry thanks to the childish infighting.

My respect to the AS/VX pilots on here and in the cockpits I humbly ride in. Youíve been class acts, and it will pay dividends coming up.

CaptCoolHand
10-20-2018, 06:12 AM
Sounds like SOMEONE is "testy". No matter. Time will tell.

Enjoy "the ride".

Honestly you come across as misery looking for company.

Glad they were able to handle it professionally unlike groups in the past.

biigD
10-20-2018, 08:43 AM
Sorry guys - we accidentally left the gate open on the AA board and one of our trolls wandered over here. :)

Glad to see you guys handling the integration so well. Good luck!

All Bizniz
10-20-2018, 01:45 PM
Sorry guys - we accidentally left the gate open on the AA board and one of our trolls wandered over here. :)

Glad to see you guys handling the integration so well. Good luck!

😂😂😂
That's hilarious!

The integrated AS pilot group is ready to go get ours and we are well aware that that will not happen if we do not display strength in unity.

CassinAK
10-20-2018, 02:30 PM
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

That's hilarious!



The integrated AS pilot group is ready to go get ours and we are well aware that that will not happen if we do not display strength in unity.



Exactly! SD is real disappointed that the MEC turned down the companyís crap scheduling MOU deal. He hasnít flown the line in how long? Sorry but Iíve got no respect for someone who fires Garin and talks the big talk about improving our lives when In fact he is just a Management mouth piece.

Route66
10-20-2018, 03:57 PM
As a LUS guy, I think you should probably do more listening and less talking. These AS/VX pilots have done a remarkable job of keeping calm, civil, and unified through this process. I suspect this professionalism will serve them well as they try to fix the arbitration results of their combined contract.

The LUS seniority integration cost the pilot profession millions. That cruddy contract that you guys lived under for, what, a decade? kept downward pressure on wages and work rules for the rest of the industry thanks to the childish infighting.

My respect to the AS/VX pilots on here and in the cockpits I humbly ride in. Youíve been class acts, and it will pay dividends coming up.

So I suppose you think we should have listened to Delta, took one for the ďteamĒ and got preferential hiring starting over at the bottom. Little do you know.

I hope that the AS/VX Pilots can do well. I wish them no ill will. Good luck on your contract. Iíll move on.

EskimoJoe
10-20-2018, 05:02 PM
As a LUS guy, I think you should probably do more listening and less talking. These AS/VX pilots have done a remarkable job of keeping calm, civil, and unified through this process. I suspect this professionalism will serve them well as they try to fix the arbitration results of their combined contract.

The LUS seniority integration cost the pilot profession millions. That cruddy contract that you guys lived under for, what, a decade? kept downward pressure on wages and work rules for the rest of the industry thanks to the childish infighting.

My respect to the AS/VX pilots on here and in the cockpits I humbly ride in. Youíve been class acts, and it will pay dividends coming up.

Uhhh....if you were LUS YOU WERE THE ONE living under LOA93, the cruddy post 9-11 contract for a decade...and the cost was over a billion in lost wages, not millions.