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ZapBrannigan
10-09-2018, 01:48 PM
Very few airlines still utilize the very low-Tech practice of line bidding these days, so why do some pilots swear by it.

Here is an example of a pilot with one week of vacation in the month of November. The week of vacation would typically credit around 26.

You will notice however that the vacation week overlaps a 3 day trip at both the beginning and the end of the week. The overlap correction is made AFTER the line is awarded. That means that those two trips are dropped from the line and, at least partially credited to the pilot. (Based on whether scheduling would have been able to get the pilot back to his domicile in time for the vacation and what that correction would pay).

Once the correction is applied, using one week of vacation the pilot is now off from November 6 through November 23 and the vacation credits 40! Line total around 82 which isnít fantastic, but still plenty of room to add a little extra flying, or just enjoy the time off.

Thatís just one week of vacation, so even a newhire can do that twice a year. By the time someone has earned 5 weeks of vacation they are taking several months off per year using this method.

Youíll notice in order to maximize that vacation week the pilot has to bid a line of weekend flying, so as with most things the pilot should choose what is most important. The days of the week they want to fly, or the time off and monetary value of the vacation.

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SlipperyWing
10-09-2018, 02:07 PM
So if I understand that correctly, your total week of "vacation" frees up the 6th through the 23rd and you fly two trips for that credit of 82?

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ZapBrannigan
10-09-2018, 02:08 PM
Correct.


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Smooth at FL450
10-09-2018, 02:34 PM
Yup. And that 2nd trip pulled from vacation overlap isn't a fully-paid pull, so it can get better! I had 1 week of vacation that overlapped months pay 55 tfp. The fact that the monthly bids are totally independent I was able to bid and get awarded 7 days of flying with only 1 day off in between. My vacation pulled them both with full pay.

ShyGuy
10-09-2018, 02:40 PM
I know you say very few airlines use like bidding and why people swear by it. That’s true because you have real line bidding.


Alaska has line bidding. In this case for 7 VAC days pay 3.5 each for a total of 24.5 hrs. So same thing both trip touching drop outright, but you don’t get paid. In this case you’d get pay for 24.5 hr vacation, plus the first trip you do pays 19.5 hrs and the last trip pays 22.5 hrs

Alaska requires you to maintain 75 hrs min.

24.5 + 19.5 + 22.5 = 66.5 hrs

So now at Alaska, you must “add back” another 8.5 hrs somewhere to go back above 75 hrs.

Yeah we’d also get the Nov 6th - 23rd off but got to add back an 8.5 hr trip or more somewhere in there.



Line bidding can be good, but only if you get BOTH conditions:

1. Full trip touch drop (which we do get)

2. AND pay for the trip dropped enough so that you don’t have to add back anything additional to your line. This is where Alaska vacation takes a beating.

symbian simian
10-09-2018, 02:41 PM
PBS vs line bidding has nothing to do with how good vacation bidding works out. You could have PBS that awards vacation AFTER line building with the exact same result, and you could have line bidding that allows for partial trip drops in the contract (so only last day(s) of the first touching trip and first day(s) of last touching trip would be dropped) giving you exactly 7 days of per week. What is important is a good contract regardless of what bidding system you use.

ShyGuy
10-09-2018, 02:46 PM
Do you SWA guys have this:


At AS, the one great thing is the ability to do even a single day vacation swap with someone else or from open time.

So for December, I can have just one vacation day I swapped into on Dec 27th. During line bidding, any trip touching that day will outright drop but again no pay for that drop. Just 3.5 hrs for the one vacation day. Using this technique will require you to add back to your line somewhere to go above 75 hrs, but guys at AS swear by it because for that one day, you can pretty much conflict and get that time off that you were looking for. The adding back sucks, so somewhere else in your line you're adding a trip to go above 75.

Say a line was off Dec 20, 21, 22, 23, then a 4-day 24-27, then off 28, 29, 30, 31. Using just that single vacation day you swapped into for Dec 27, you have all 10 days off. But those 10 days are paying only 3.5 hr for that single vac day, so you're gonna have to have 71.5 hrs from Dec 1-19th so have fun with that. But at least there is an advantage to single day vacation touching.

It doesn't have to be single day. You can swap out 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatever other combination vacation days you want. Theoretically I could swap out from open time all 21 of my vacation days to be single, independent days and run conflicts like that.

Smooth at FL450
10-09-2018, 03:05 PM
Do you SWA guys have this:


At AS, the one great thing is the ability to do even a single day vacation swap with someone else or from open time.

So for December, I can have just one vacation day I swapped into on Dec 27th. During line bidding, any trip touching that day will outright drop but again no pay for that drop. Just 3.5 hrs for the one vacation day. Using this technique will require you to add back to your line somewhere to go above 75 hrs, but guys at AS swear by it because for that one day, you can pretty much conflict and get that time off that you were looking for. The adding back sucks, so somewhere else in your line you're adding a trip to go above 75.

Say a line was off Dec 20, 21, 22, 23, then a 4-day 24-27, then off 28, 29, 30, 31. Using just that single vacation day you swapped into for Dec 27, you have all 10 days off. But those 10 days are paying only 3.5 hr for that single vac day, so you're gonna have to have 71.5 hrs from Dec 1-19th so have fun with that. But at least there is an advantage to single day vacation touching.

It doesn't have to be single day. You can swap out 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatever other combination vacation days you want. Theoretically I could swap out from open time all 21 of my vacation days to be single, independent days and run conflicts like that.


No we don't, but that sounds like a nice card to play when necessary.

SlipperyWing
10-09-2018, 04:06 PM
Do the SWA guys have to add back to get to minimum credit, though?

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ZapBrannigan
10-09-2018, 04:07 PM
PBS vs line bidding has nothing to do with how good vacation bidding works out. You could have PBS that awards vacation AFTER line building with the exact same result

True. Is this contractually in use at American, United, Delta, JetBlue, or Spirit?

I was under the impression that most companies that use PBS did so to eliminate vacation, training, and month to month overlap corrections.




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ZapBrannigan
10-09-2018, 04:08 PM
Do the SWA guys have to add back to get to minimum credit, though?

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No.


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Winston
10-09-2018, 04:11 PM
Acknowledging and agreeing with the above statement that schedule bidding and vacation award/drop protocols are two separate matters (which can be negotiated to protect situations like the OP’s), I can relate that I have been a junior reserve through senior line holder in both systems, at both a regional and a mainline carrier, and that I vastly prefer PBS across all categories and seniority.

Generally speaking, the ability to micro-dictate one’s schedule regardless of seniority is vastly improved with PBS, and even with my current 30% seniority I have have a schedule that is way better than was ever available under hard lines. My schedules mid range (50-70%) were also way better because every individual has different desires and you can just arrange the puzzle pieces in a manner that wouldn’t be available to you in a hard line system. Junior schedules suck, but junior schedules always suck.

Again, this is all a separate discussion from how you handle vacation drops and I would absolutely find a way to hold onto that provision, but it’s not an either/or decision and does not take away from the value of PBS.

Skyward
10-09-2018, 05:08 PM
Do the SWA guys have to add back to get to minimum credit, though?

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No min credit at SWA

SlipKid
10-09-2018, 05:22 PM
PBS?

Is it time to vote YES! again already?

Great idea!

Along with over hiring and vacation bidding changes, let's completely destroy what's left of our QOL, productivity, flexibility and pay by voluntarily going to PBS.

With this apathetic pilot group, it'd be decades, if ever, before we figured out all the ways in which we screwed ourselves via unseen loopholes etc.

Look at our current contract language, on pretty much any subject, if you question this. :eek:

Didn't most pilot groups consider PBS a concession?

Skyward
10-09-2018, 05:23 PM
I worked at a company with PBS in a previous life. I felt like I had a really good handle on it and thought PBS was the only way to go. I was a little skeptical when I first got hired at SWA if I would like the line bidding as well. Now, I would never trade it for PBS. I’m a firm believer in our bidding at SWA! 18 days off... as a newhire... over the summer, but almost everyone’s getting at least 17 or 18. I like it.

I don’t have a full week of vac yet because I’m new, but my couple of days yielded me 21 off for the month and 86 credit. Can’t wait until I have 2 full weeks to use.

e6bpilot
10-09-2018, 05:25 PM
PBS is a give to the company. That is the definition of a concession. They just sell it to the pilots with bullet points about getting the days off you need and dictating your own schedule. Meanwhile, they laugh all the way to the bank.

Skyward
10-09-2018, 05:25 PM
PBS?

Is it time to vote YES! again already?

Great idea!

Along with over hiring and vacation bidding changes, let's completely destroy what's left of our QOL, productivity, flexibility and pay by voluntarily going to PBS.

With this apathetic pilot group, it'd be decades, if ever, before we figured out all the ways in which we screwed ourselves via unseen loopholes etc.

Look at our current contract language, on pretty much any subject, if you question this. :eek:

Didn't most pilot groups consider PBS a concession?

PBS would be a huge concession for us. I would vote no for that change.

symbian simian
10-09-2018, 06:10 PM
True. Is this contractually in use at American, United, Delta, JetBlue, or Spirit?

I was under the impression that most companies that use PBS did so to eliminate vacation, training, and month to month overlap corrections.




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Only know Spirit.
Originally I thought we would end up with vacation award after line award, but it ended up being a minimum of 9 days off pr week, extendable to 21 days off (seniority permitting) with more vacation credit taken out off your bank (if I understand it correctly, haven't dealt directly with it yet).
Training, unless waived is supposed to be on work days, but we already traded our awesome training rules for a shiny new iPad, so...
Also, we had the best conflict language AFAIK, if you could end your month with a 6-day block, and start the next with a 6-day block, they would have to drop 6 days with pay protection, with no requirement to add anything. This would invariably lead to junior assignments (voluntary, at 200%) during the first week of the month. Loads of people added an easy 20hr credit AND extra days off every month. I don't think we would have kept that regardless of PBS, but PBS definitely don't help....

symbian simian
10-09-2018, 06:18 PM
I worked at a company with PBS in a previous life. I felt like I had a really good handle on it and thought PBS was the only way to go. I was a little skeptical when I first got hired at SWA if I would like the line bidding as well. Now, I would never trade it for PBS. Iím a firm believer in our bidding at SWA! 18 days off... as a newhire... over the summer, but almost everyoneís getting at least 17 or 18. I like it.

I donít have a full week of vac yet because Iím new, but my couple of days yielded me 21 off for the month and 86 credit. Canít wait until I have 2 full weeks to use.

I see the SWA schedule up close at home every month, and it is wayyyy better than what I have with line bidding. The thing that makes it better isn't directly related to line vs PBS, it is because your pairings are built better, and you have a average vs minimum days off per month. As long as there is 12 days off on every hardline, I am supposed to be happy. SWA has to give you average 17 days off (give or take). They could have PBS, as long as they keep that same rule, the lines would still be better than mine. The rules matter more than the system.

Grumpyaviator
10-09-2018, 06:51 PM
We had probably the best PBS in the industry at my last company. It was awesome and you could turn 1 week into 3 with weekends off if you bid right. But I would never give up line bidding at SWA, even for that.

It’s not so much PBS vs line bidding as it is the negotiated rules and we have great rules and unmatched flexibility. What you can’t do in the initial bid you can make up for with ellitt and ttga.

SlipKid
10-09-2018, 07:58 PM
Itís not so much PBS vs line bidding as it is the negotiated rules and we have great rules and unmatched flexibility. What you canít do in the initial bid you can make up for with ellitt and ttga.

Amen. We are NOT good about negotiating rules with teeth to protect the pilots. "Double" time for being forced to work on your days off is a perfect example. :eek:

SlipKid
10-09-2018, 08:04 PM
PBS would be a huge concession for us. I would vote no for that change.

If our past track record of ratifying concessions is any indication, the majority of your peers would most likely outvote you. :eek:

Skyward
10-09-2018, 08:29 PM
If our past track record of ratifying concessions is any indication, the majority of your peers would most likely outvote you. :eek:

I hope the NC would not go that route and hope it never comes to a vote. I honestly haven’t talked to anyone in favor of it and haven’t heard any thoughts toward going that way. Is it something being considered? I’m still somewhat of a newb, so I’m not 100% up to speed on all the issues yet. I missed a couple of contract surveys too. Is PBS really something being talked about? I would hate for us to break a good thing.

hoover
10-09-2018, 09:33 PM
I think we have enough new hires who got screwed for the last 10 yrs at a undesirable location with crap work rules pushed on them that they won't go backward again and those who have been at wn for a while are listening to the horror stories of the lost decade.
I think we won't do any more concession.

PowerShift
10-09-2018, 10:41 PM
I think we have enough new hires who got screwed for the last 10 yrs at a undesirable location with crap work rules pushed on them that they won't go backward again and those who have been at wn for a while are listening to the horror stories of the lost decade.
I think we won't do any more concession.

Been here for just under 2 years. It really surprises me how many captians really have no idea how aviation was for the “rest” of us. They got hired pre 9-11 and upgraded in 5-6 yrs.
They’re great people and I’m glad the timing worked out for them.

SlipKid
10-10-2018, 06:22 AM
I hope the NC would not go that route and hope it never comes to a vote. I honestly havenít talked to anyone in favor of it and havenít heard any thoughts toward going that way. Is it something being considered? Iím still somewhat of a newb, so Iím not 100% up to speed on all the issues yet. I missed a couple of contract surveys too. Is PBS really something being talked about? I would hate for us to break a good thing.

Thankfully, AFAIK, it's not even being considered by the NC, and you're right, the vast majority of folks have zero interest in PBS at SW.

But.

All it takes is a few squeaky wheels, and a BOD member or 2, and the next thing you know, it's out for a YES! vote. :eek:

A perfect example of that is the vacation block bidding debacle of last year. "70%" (of the minority that actually voted) gave that one up.

Fortunately, the company's horrid IT likely saved us from ourselves, at least for a few years. I can't wait until THAT red herring distracts us from the important stuff we actually need to fix in 2020.

SlipKid
10-10-2018, 06:24 AM
I think we have enough new hires who got screwed for the last 10 yrs at a undesirable location with crap work rules pushed on them that they won't go backward again and those who have been at wn for a while are listening to the horror stories of the lost decade.
I think we won't do any more concession.

I sincerely hope you're right, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

gipple
10-10-2018, 12:51 PM
Thankfully, AFAIK, it's not even being considered by the NC, and you're right, the vast majority of folks have zero interest in PBS at SW.

But.

All it takes is a few squeaky wheels, and a BOD member or 2, and the next thing you know, it's out for a YES! vote. :eek:

A perfect example of that is the vacation block bidding debacle of last year. "70%" (of the minority that actually voted) gave that one up.

Fortunately, the company's horrid IT likely saved us from ourselves, at least for a few years. I can't wait until THAT red herring distracts us from the important stuff we actually need to fix in 2020.

SlipKid,
You, more than any other, knows how stupid this pilot group is. I donít care where anybody came from before, 84% of them get a lobotomy in Dallas and canít vote YES fast enough. I have yet to experience any militantism from the Trannys. And they were supposed to be very uppity. We knee jerked the vacation because a few "entitled" SNAPS decided it wasnít fair to finally upgrade and not get summer AND Christmas vacation. We shoot ourselves in the foot EVERY SINGLE TIME.

sMFer
10-10-2018, 05:41 PM
I will personally lose it if we vote in PBS. With our ELITT system, our lines are basically just place holders of trips until we do what we want with them.

What Iíd like to see is the ability to move a 4 day down to a 3 day as long as reserve levels for that day are at a company/union agreed upon level.


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e6bpilot
10-10-2018, 05:59 PM
You guys crack me up. I am the founding member of the moderate wing of SWAPA since apparently I am the only one who voted yes on TA2 and still refuses to wear a flag tie. Also voted to change vacation bidding. Also picketed during negotiations. Also will gladly vote no on anything containing the letters P B or S.
Turns out you donít have to be a koolie or a DBMIVN guy. Vote your heart and have some pride in your job and your fellow pilots. Itís not that hard.

BoilerUP
10-11-2018, 02:26 AM
UPS guy here....

Folks say ďyou donít have to have line bidding in order to have conflict bidding!!1!Ē but how many legacy, major, LLC or regionals have 1. PBS and 2. Conflict bidding?

Basically none, because the big efficiency of PBS is scheduling around vacation and training conflicts to reduce manpower needs. PBS with after-award conflict doesnít provide any economic benefit for an airline.

I think thereís a reason some pilot groups are clinging to their archaic line bidding...and it ainít aversion to technology.

Bwipilot
10-11-2018, 04:21 AM
I think thereís a reason some pilot groups are clinging to their archaic line bidding...and it ainít aversion to technology.

For me it's about the extra $22-$25K that I get each year in vacation pay--which I use to replace days worked. I will cling to that like a 3 yr old holds a silk blanket.

RckyMtHigh
10-11-2018, 05:16 AM
I think we have enough new hires who got screwed for the last 10 yrs at a undesirable location with crap work rules pushed on them that they won't go backward again and those who have been at wn for a while are listening to the horror stories of the lost decade.
I think we won't do any more concession.

Heard a Captain loudly and proudly proclaiming in the lounge how great the ipad check in app was and he ďdidnít care what Jon Weaks saidĒ.

Itís not the new hires that will be the problem. I think we have turned a corner, but their is still a portion out there that donít get it.

WHACKMASTER
10-11-2018, 06:23 AM
PBS? Over my cold dead body...

SlipKid
10-11-2018, 07:15 AM
You guys crack me up. I am the founding member of the moderate wing of SWAPA since apparently I am the only one who voted yes on TA2 and still refuses to wear a flag tie. Also voted to change vacation bidding. Also picketed during negotiations. Also will gladly vote no on anything containing the letters P B or S.
Turns out you donít have to be a koolie or a DBMIVN guy. Vote your heart and have some pride in your job and your fellow pilots. Itís not that hard.

I rest my case. :cool:

e6bpilot
10-11-2018, 09:04 AM
I rest my case. :cool:



What is your case exactly? Pilots are dumb because we want to change the screwed up process of vacation bidding? We donít know what we are getting ourselves into so we should let smart guys who just vote no on everything decide for us?
The majority of the union has spoken. We arenít dumb and we arenít koolies.
I agree that the law of unintended consequences applies to voting in restrictions, but this isnít a restriction. It is the end of the bastardization of block bidding.
SWAPA has created a tidal wave of pro pilot momentum. This isnít the swapa of 4 years ago and I hope we never go back to those dark days.

Tenacvols
10-11-2018, 09:11 AM
Turns out you donít have to be a koolie or a DBMIVN guy.

Whatís DBMIVN? Iíve only been here 19 months and Iím not familiar with that term. Oh, and I rock the flag tie. With a SWAPA pin of course ;)

SlipKid
10-11-2018, 09:35 AM
What is your case exactly?

That this "moderate" pilot group is it's own worst enemy.

Pilots are dumb because we want to change the screwed up process of vacation bidding?

Since "we" voted to change it for the worse, I'd say, yes.

If the proposed solution is ever actually enacted, less people will get the vacations they want than they do now.


We don’t know what we are getting ourselves into so we should let smart guys who just vote no on everything decide for us?

How about just voting no yourself? The vast majority of the stuff we all hate about our contract is self induced.


The majority of the union has spoken. We aren’t dumb and we aren’t koolies.

Based on the results of decades of yes votes, this comment contradicts itself. :D

BTW, not even close to the majority of our pilot group ended up voting for the "winning" solution in the VBB debacle last year.

I agree that the law of unintended consequences applies to voting in restrictions, but this isn’t a restriction. It is the end of the bastardization of block bidding.

Hooray! We ended evil block bidding, and voted for a worse system that subrogates seniority, but might allow someone to get awarded a "prime" week a year or so earlier. Ironically, it result in fewer people actually ending up with the weeks that they want. Ultimately, the entire group is harmed by the change, and not just the evil senior block bidders.

Nice job guys!

What's next? Elimination of pure weekday lines, you know, because it's "unfair" that the senior folks are awarded ALL of them, and then (gasp!) trade or even give them away(!)? ;)

SWAPA has created a tidal wave of pro pilot momentum. This isn’t the swapa of 4 years ago and I hope we never go back to those dark days.

After 20 years of watching SWApA, with the help of this apathetic pilot group, give away the store, I was actually very happy with the 180 that SWAPA pulled in 2016.

Then, they did another one with the divisive VBB nonsense.

Instead of trying to fix actual problems in our contract, due to pressure from a few squeaky wheels, they put that abortion out for a vote, where a minority of folks decided to shoot the entire pilot group in our collective foot. :eek:

ZapBrannigan
10-11-2018, 09:49 AM
What is your case exactly? Pilots are dumb because we want to change the screwed up process of vacation bidding? We donít know what we are getting ourselves into so we should let smart guys who just vote no on everything decide for us?
The majority of the union has spoken. We arenít dumb and we arenít koolies.
I agree that the law of unintended consequences applies to voting in restrictions, but this isnít a restriction. It is the end of the bastardization of block bidding.
SWAPA has created a tidal wave of pro pilot momentum. This isnít the swapa of 4 years ago and I hope we never go back to those dark days.


If you ever run for rep, youíve got my vote.


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full of luv
10-11-2018, 10:30 AM
UPS guy here....

Folks say ďyou donít have to have line bidding in order to have conflict bidding!!1!Ē but how many legacy, major, LLC or regionals have 1. PBS and 2. Conflict bidding?

Basically none, because the big efficiency of PBS is scheduling around vacation and training conflicts to reduce manpower needs. PBS with after-award conflict doesnít provide any economic benefit for an airline.

I think thereís a reason some pilot groups are clinging to their archaic line bidding...and it ainít aversion to technology.

Vacation dropping after PBS would be like allowing SWA to line bid, then go through a week of ELITT/swaps and then applying your vacation drop.

Even SWA management wouldn't go for that, just like no management is going to allow PBS to run and then drop vacation on top to drop trips. That's worse than line bidding alone for mgmt.

Most of the large pilot groups on PBS didn't "negotiate" it, it came as a package of pay cuts and work rules that were jammed down the union's throat in front of a BK judge.
If you think Delta or UAL at least "gave away" line bidding then you don't know your history and/or weren't paying attention.

SlipKid
10-11-2018, 10:37 AM
Vacation dropping after PBS would be like allowing SWA to line bid, then go through a week of ELITT/swaps and then applying your vacation drop.

Even SWA management wouldn't go for that, just like no management is going to allow PBS to run and then drop vacation on top to drop trips. That's worse than line bidding alone for mgmt.

Most of the large pilot groups on PBS didn't "negotiate" it, it came as a package of pay cuts and work rules that were jammed down the union's throat in front of a BK judge.
If you think Delta or UAL at least "gave away" line bidding then you don't know your history and/or weren't paying attention.

Amen brother. I don't even know why we're still discussing this nonsense. :eek:

tomgoodman
10-11-2018, 10:43 AM
Whatís DBMIVN?

ďDonít blame me, I voted noĒ. Itís kind of like ďI told you soĒ, but without proof. ;)

SlipKid
10-11-2018, 10:48 AM
ďDonít blame me, I voted noĒ. Itís kind of like ďI told you soĒ, but without proof. ;)

The proof is in the concessions....... ;)

mainlineAF
10-11-2018, 01:08 PM
PBS with paid conflicts would be the ultimate. I canít even imagine how awesome that would be once you got relatively senior.

SlipKid
10-11-2018, 01:46 PM
PBS with paid conflicts would be the ultimate. I canít even imagine how awesome that would be once you got relatively senior.

PBS at SW and the word awesome will be mutually exclusive. Count on it. :eek:

at6d
10-11-2018, 02:40 PM
No on PBS.

Skyward
10-11-2018, 10:44 PM
Plus, with PBS you can really jack up a month, lol. Back to back trips, single days off, min days off, etc. NO PBS!

Riverside
10-12-2018, 05:15 AM
Plus, with PBS you can really jack up a month, lol. Back to back trips, single days off, min days off, etc. NO PBS!

At my last gig never experienced anything like this. All depends what the pilot group and management agreed to. Only way you got less than 2 days off is if you choose to do so. Min days, never saw that. In fact got more days off than line bidding. Again it all comes down to the language!

Skyward
10-12-2018, 05:49 AM
At my last gig never experienced anything like this. All depends what the pilot group and management agreed to. Only way you got less than 2 days off is if you choose to do so. Min days, never saw that. In fact got more days off than line bidding. Again it all comes down to the language!

I sure experienced it at my last gig. I agree that the rules dictate the outcome, but Line bidding at SW is about as consistent and as predictable as a ďnormalĒ life can be as an airline pilot, imo. Even as a new guy Iím awarded 3on/4off, but then I can modify it if I choose. My schedule was all over the place with PBS with no form of consistancy or repetition. Hopefully, this is just a moot conversation anyway and we donít try to ďfixĒ our unbroken system...

SlipKid
10-12-2018, 07:50 AM
Hopefully, this is just a moot conversation anyway and we donít try to ďfixĒ our unbroken system...

Yup..... Hopefully you're right, but this topic comes up pretty regularly, and while most folks are 100% against it, there are always a few folks, who, for whatever reason, seem to think PBS wouldn't be a disaster here.

All it takes is a few squeaky wheels who have the ear of a BOD member, and the next thing we know, we're voting YES! on it. :eek:

StillFlying
10-13-2018, 06:07 AM
Every individual has their price. Think about it, as an extreme, if your company came in and said they would give you a 100% B plan, a 50% pay raise, and an extra week or two of vacation per year in exchange for PBS, I would guarantee you would see members voting for PBS.

If the company really wants to see it, the calculus is were the B plan, wage, and vacation (among other things) ends up. Yeah, got it, youíll never get a 100% B plan...but how about a 25% B plan...how about your wage never being less than the best paid 73 pilots at other airlines...how about vacation being industry leading...

SlipKid
10-13-2018, 07:20 AM
Every individual has their price. Think about it, as an extreme, if your company came in and said they would give you a 100% B plan, a 50% pay raise, and an extra week or two of vacation per year in exchange for PBS, I would guarantee you would see members voting for PBS.

With this pilot group, they wouldn't even have to do that. If it went out for a vote with no added incentive, there's a very good chance that it would pass, especially if they crank up the old SWApAganda machine and hard sell it.

More than 1/3 of our group voted YES! for a concession ridden TA a few years ago. 84% voted for our current contract, which has once again put us behind in most areas. Same as it ever was around here.

If the company really wants to see it, the calculus is were the B plan, wage, and vacation (among other things) ends up. Yeah, got it, youíll never get a 100% B plan...but how about a 25% B plan...how about your wage never being less than the best paid 73 pilots at other airlines...how about vacation being industry leading...

The company would never go for a PBS system that doesn't save them money, which is any PBS system that wouldn't screw the pilot group.

Get Real
10-14-2018, 12:59 AM
There is irrefutable proof, easily referenced, that the pilots of the most profitable airline in history are indeed dumb koolies.

Look at our contract.

This PBS discussion gives a hint at things.

ZapBrannigan
10-14-2018, 09:07 AM
How so? The original post was ďhey, look. This is why we are happy with line bidding and not interested in PBS.Ē


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ROFF
10-14-2018, 09:09 AM
Iíd be fine with PBS as long as the lines were built before bidding. :D

e6bpilot
10-14-2018, 11:58 AM
This thread got APCd. The original post was spot on. For all the poo pooing of the old way we do things at swa, line bidding is, and will remain, one of our greatest QOL boosters.
I use overlap every month to get days pulled and or extra TFP during peak times. You think that would be a thing under PBS? How about the bonus that I get every February by bidding the min pay line? It is the gift that keeps on giving.
That, our sick bank, and vacation are the low hanging fruit that the company will certainly be coming for next round. Donít like it? Let your reps know. I write mine every now and again and always remind him of my must have and must not touch things in negotiations.
Being the most efficient pilots in the industry used to be a win win. Now that the company has introduced inefficiencies into the network (hub and spoke, sit times, long overnights, deadheads, overnights in bases), there is less incentive to go after efficiency and more incentive to go after cost items that are important to our QOL. Every time I hear about how flight ops is making great strides to come up with a comprehensive crew management software, I cringe. They keep delaying it....wonder why?

Bwipilot
10-14-2018, 02:08 PM
I'll fight PBS tooth and nail because would cost me $25K yearly (vacation overlap pay) and increase the amount that I'd have to work.

I currently average 45 TFP each week of vacation. Line bidding gets me about 10 weeks off from flying each year (5 weeks of vacation). SWA would have to double my vacation to make PBS a comparable system. I don't see SWA every agreeing to that--since many SWA pilots just take their 26.25 TFP each week of vacation (saving the Kompany a lot of money). I'd ask those pilots to not force me to do the same.

#&@# PBS

Spookywatcher
10-15-2018, 08:25 AM
I haven't even been here 3yrs yet.

My November line using one week of vacation:

93.69 TFP
22 Days Off
Thanksgiving Off
3 Weekends Off
100% Commutable


My October line with recurrent training:

105.04 TFP
18 Days Off
Halloween Off
2 Weekends Off

PBS can below me.

SpookyWatcher <--- 16%er

SlipKid
10-15-2018, 08:49 AM
I'll fight PBS tooth and nail because would cost me $25K yearly (vacation overlap pay) and increase the amount that I'd have to work.

I currently average 45 TFP each week of vacation. Line bidding gets me about 10 weeks off from flying each year (5 weeks of vacation). SWA would have to double my vacation to make PBS a comparable system. I don't see SWA every agreeing to that--since many SWA pilots just take their 26.25 TFP each week of vacation (saving the Kompany a lot of money). I'd ask those pilots to not force me to do the same.

#&@# PBS

Absolutely.......

Beware anyone touting the "virtues" of PBS to this pilot group. :eek:

at6d
10-15-2018, 09:40 AM
Or scope. Iím worried the old ďthrow money at them and they will caveĒ tactic will be employed.

OhSnapAF
10-15-2018, 10:01 AM
I would love more flexability in our schedule. Having used both I have always preferred PBS.

Spookywatcher
10-15-2018, 10:07 AM
I would love more flexability in our schedule. Having used both I have always preferred PBS.

How in the H$ll does PBS give more flexibility than our current system?!!

Can't wait to hear this!

SpookyWatcher <---16%er

CA1900
10-15-2018, 10:38 AM
How in the H$ll does PBS give more flexibility than our current system?!!

You can bid the single day off you need, and the company then has the flexibility to pack work days right up to either side of it. :D

Hell no to PBS, please!

Spookywatcher
10-15-2018, 11:02 AM
You can bid the single day off you need, and the company then has the flexibility to pack work days right up to either side of it. :D

Hell no to PBS, please!

This^^^^^

It appears he is a future retires w/ 1600 sick trips in the bank kind of guy.

Skyward
10-15-2018, 03:39 PM
You can bid the single day off you need, and the company then has the flexibility to pack work days right up to either side of it. :D

Hell no to PBS, please!

And then all the guys junior to him get single days off later in the month because he wanted that single day off.

NO PBS!!!

Bwipilot
10-16-2018, 03:43 AM
I would love more flexability in our schedule. Having used both I have always preferred PBS.

Hey, Snap:

There are numerous other airlines out there who have PBS--and pilots who'd love to have line bidding back. If you like PBS, please apply to all of those airlines and take a job with any of them that offer. Please don't 'f up our great schedules because you can't figure out how to get what you want with line bids, blank lines, TTGA, ELITT, OT, etc.

Last, your spell checker seems to have a Texas accent.

Smokey23
10-16-2018, 06:23 PM
1) It all boils down to what controls SWAPA would have over the PBS software (and that would be none...or it would be a non-starter for the company).

2) When you look at how many liberties our Crew Scheduling peeps have taken over the years with our current open-time system, imagine what they could do with the 'black box' that is PBS (which is why it would be a non-starter for SWAPA).

These are the two main reasons why we will never see PBS at SWA.

OhSnapAF
10-16-2018, 06:53 PM
You can bid the single day off you need, and the company then has the flexibility to pack work days right up to either side of it. :D

Hell no to PBS, please!

I guess I need to assume now that every pilot thinks like a pilot...

PBS and line bidding can both be a pilots best, and worst nightmare given the MOU, CBA language etc.

Why would we want to give the company control over something we want the flexibility with? Guys I ask you, any major airline that has PBS, are they begging to switch to line bidding? The answer is hell no, because they back up PBS with language that doesn't screw them over, pretty simple concept here.

OhSnapAF
10-16-2018, 06:54 PM
Hey, Snap:

There are numerous other airlines out there who have PBS--and pilots who'd love to have line bidding back. If you like PBS, please apply to all of those airlines and take a job with any of them that offer. Please don't 'f up our great schedules because you can't figure out how to get what you want with line bids, blank lines, TTGA, ELITT, OT, etc.

Last, your spell checker seems to have a Texas accent.

Yea those same pilots want to go back to sending in physical pay sheets at the end of the week because they can't figure out the payroll website. This is 2018...

e6bpilot
10-16-2018, 07:11 PM
I guess I need to assume now that every pilot thinks like a pilot...



PBS and line bidding can both be a pilots best, and worst nightmare given the MOU, CBA language etc.



Why would we want to give the company control over something we want the flexibility with? Guys I ask you, any major airline that has PBS, are they begging to switch to line bidding? The answer is hell no, because they back up PBS with language that doesn't screw them over, pretty simple concept here.



I call BS. Sure, pilots love PBS just like I love flying the 737...because I donít have a choice. Sure, itís a pilotís airplane and so much fun to fly, but I canít bid off of it, so I may as well love it, right?

PBS is a legacy bankruptcy contract concession and it favors one party...the company. Itís fun to say that you get the days off you want and you just tell the computer what you want to fly. Turns out it requires less pilots to man a shop under PBS. Guessing there is a reason for that.

Skyward
10-16-2018, 08:01 PM
...

Guys I ask you, any major airline that has PBS, are they begging to switch to line bidding? The answer is hell no, because they back up PBS with language that doesn't screw them over, pretty simple concept here.

Um, Iíve seen the shedules of a lot of my friends at various legacies and major airlines, and IĎve seen some screwed up looking schedules, lol (as well as some good ones too). I wouldnít trade my 3on/4off hard line with ELITT and TTGA for PBS for anything. NO PBS!

Bwipilot
10-16-2018, 08:22 PM
Yea those same pilots want to go back to sending in physical pay sheets at the end of the week because they can't figure out the payroll website. This is 2018...

Can't argue with stupid--logic fails them every time. I have yet to meet a pilot who wants to go back to physical pay sheets. At this point, I'm starting to wonder if you're a management shill/plant trying to float the PBS balloon again.

If that's the case, go 'f yourself--we don't want it. It'll cost you and the Kompany more goodwill than you'll ever accumulate again.

SlipKid
10-16-2018, 09:52 PM
I call BS. Sure, pilots love PBS just like I love flying the 737...because I donít have a choice. Sure, itís a pilotís airplane and so much fun to fly, but I canít bid off of it, so I may as well love it, right?

PBS is a legacy bankruptcy contract concession and it favors one party...the company. Itís fun to say that you get the days off you want and you just tell the computer what you want to fly. Turns out it requires less pilots to man a shop under PBS. Guessing there is a reason for that.

Amen brother.

PBS is a 3rd rail issue, and for good reason. :eek:

Lewbronski
10-18-2018, 11:36 AM
I donít support PBS. And the membership is clearly opposed to it.

PBS, though, is industry standard. The company is probably going to be coming after it in 2020. Because itís industry standard, theyíre going to have a strong arguement.

Meanwhile, we want a complete contract rewrite, better benefits, and a better B-Fund (among other things).

The point is, weíre going to need tons of leverage to prevail. We all need to think about that. We probably wonít be able to just say, ďHell no!Ē to PBS, unless we want to fail in many other areas. Maybe the only way to avoid that outcome is to gear up to wield lots of leverage in 2020.

e6bpilot
10-18-2018, 01:22 PM
I donít support PBS. And the membership is clearly opposed to it.



PBS, though, is industry standard. The company is probably going to be coming after it in 2020. Because itís industry standard, theyíre going to have a strong arguement.



Meanwhile, we want a complete contract rewrite, better benefits, and a better B-Fund (among other things).



The point is, weíre going to need tons of leverage to prevail. We all need to think about that. We probably wonít be able to just say, ďHell no!Ē to PBS, unless we want to fail in many other areas. Maybe the only way to avoid that outcome is to gear up to wield lots of leverage in 2020.



Best post of this whole thread. Itís one thing to say hell no to PBS, another to have a strategy to prevent it from showing up during contract negotiations.
This pilot group is going to have to have some backbone, which isnít something it is known for. New SWAPA has given us a good push in that direction, but there is a group of pilots here that they will never convince to operate outside their safe little box.

See JW's latest email on ETOPS if you want to know how a union is supposed to act.

gipple
10-18-2018, 04:22 PM
The company will not come to the table as long as Weaks is president. They want stuff but donít want to negotiate for it.
Pretty sure that PBS is a showstopper for this group, but you just never know what the YESSIES might agree to.

e6bpilot
10-18-2018, 04:46 PM
The company will not come to the table as long as Weaks is president. They want stuff but donít want to negotiate for it.

Pretty sure that PBS is a showstopper for this group, but you just never know what the YESSIES might agree to.



Throw some money on the table and watch the squabbling happen. Sadly, there are those out there who canít see past their noses.

SlipKid
10-19-2018, 09:27 AM
Throw some money on the table and watch the squabbling happen. Sadly, there are those out there who canít see past their noses.

They won't even have to throw much money on the table with this pilot group. Heck, there are pilots here that would pay to get PBS on the property, especially if shiny new jets are involved in the deal. :confused:

RJSAviator76
10-19-2018, 02:55 PM
They won't even have to throw much money on the table with this pilot group. Heck, there are pilots here that would pay to get PBS on the property, especially if shiny new jets are involved in the deal. :confused:

Well... we do pay for the flag ties, you probably paid for your type rating, what's a few extra bucks for PBS? ;)

ZapBrannigan
10-19-2018, 03:24 PM
Well... we do pay for the flag ties, you probably paid for your type rating, what's a few extra bucks for PBS? ;)


My 737 type rating was paid for by the good folks at US Airways about a year before they decided they no longer had any need of my services.


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RJSAviator76
10-19-2018, 03:36 PM
My 737 type rating was paid for by the good folks at US Airways about a year before they decided they no longer had any need of my services.


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Right, but do you wear a flag tie, and even more importantly, are you willing to pay for PBS? ;)

ZapBrannigan
10-19-2018, 04:57 PM
Right, but do you wear a flag tie, and even more importantly, are you willing to pay for PBS? ;)


No, no flag tie. And Iíd like to SAY I wouldnít pay for PBS... but I never imagined I would pay for a lot of things that employers typically provide. And yet here i am paying for CrewBid, and CrewBuddy, and Swaptimizer, and uniforms, and parking...

So, who knows. [emoji21]


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Smooth at FL450
10-19-2018, 06:31 PM
No, no flag tie. And I’d like to SAY I wouldn’t pay for PBS... but I never imagined I would pay for a lot of things that employers typically provide. And yet here i am paying for CrewBid, and CrewBuddy, and Swaptimizer, and uniforms, and parking...

So, who knows. [emoji21]


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The day the company starts paying for Swaptimizer, a vacation optimizing app, is the day I start updating my application at other airlines!

ZapBrannigan
10-19-2018, 06:35 PM
The day the company starts paying for Swaptimizer, a vacation optimizing app, is the day I start updating my application at other airlines!


Yeah good point. The others stand though.


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hoover
10-19-2018, 09:07 PM
I'd vote for PBS if my retro check is big enough. Since I've already spent my retro I need to vote yes.

SlipKid
10-20-2018, 07:21 AM
Well... we do pay for the flag ties, you probably paid for your type rating, what's a few extra bucks for PBS? ;)

Exactly! You'll only have to work a few more days per month to make up the pay difference!

Not much difference between working 20 and 22 days, right, and think of all of the other wonderful benefits PBS would bring...... Be sure to vote YES!

RJSAviator76
10-20-2018, 07:36 AM
Exactly! You'll only have to work a few more days per month to make up the pay difference!



Not much difference between working 20 and 22 days, right, and think of all of the other wonderful benefits PBS would bring...... Be sure to vote YES!


Sorry... not enough days worked. We need to look at BGís board for July of 2017 and that should be the model for going forward.... with PBS to boot. Just for efficiencies, yíknow. ;)

BTW... did you pay for your type rating?

SlipKid
10-20-2018, 08:18 AM
Sorry... not enough days worked. We need to look at BGís board for July of 2017 and that should be the model for going forward.... with PBS to boot. Just for efficiencies, yíknow. ;)

We are working hard to ensure that we all get 4 full days off every month!

BTW... did you pay for your type rating?

Yeah, why?

Zard
10-20-2018, 08:59 AM
We are working hard to ensure that we all get 4 full days off every month!



Yeah, why?

Will I have to commute on at least two of those days? If so, Iím a solid YES!

RJSAviator76
10-20-2018, 10:34 AM
We are working hard to ensure that we all get 4 full days off every month!







Yeah, why?



Just making sure you werenít a complete saint and a true profession defender... thatís all. ;)

SlipKid
10-20-2018, 11:15 AM
Just making sure you weren’t a complete saint and a true profession defender... that’s all. ;)

Really?

The 737 type was a requirement just to apply to SW back then. It didn't matter how you got it, you just had to have it. The vast majority bought them, although some were already typed at other airlines.

I had apps in at all the usual suspects for 10+ years by that point. SW wasn't even on my radar until a few friends got hired here, and started bugging me to get the type and apply. NO one was hiring at the time, and after 10 years in the regionals, I made the decision to bite the bullet and get it.

It was a gamble, and every day, I am thankful that it's paid off...... in spades. I did the type in a week, and my only regret is not doing it a few years sooner.

Should I have waited a few more years, saved the cash and gone to a legacy when they started hiring again?

Ask Zap how that's worked out for him, not to mention thousands of our peers.........

How many of them would, if they could, go back and pay (the equivalent of a good paying 4 day at my current rates) for the type just to avoid getting hosed by the lost decade? Not to mention that they'd be sitting in the top 10% at SW now?

Almost to a man, the guys who busted my stones about getting the type were getting theirs and asking me for LORs after 9/11.

As a pure civilian scumbag, (minus my other 4 type ratings and my FE rating), I also paid for the training for all of my other certs from private through ATP.

I guess I'd better start voting YES! on concessions like the rest of you! ;)

ZapBrannigan
10-20-2018, 03:51 PM
Good post.

SWA wasnít even on my radar in the 1990s. I wasnít even interested.

When things started turning south in 2000 (the DOJ failed to approve the USAir/United merger and Stephen Wolf didnít have a plan B) I bid the 737 just to get the type - just in case.

It still took me 12 years to come to SWA after being furloughed in 02í. Wish I had done it sooner, but it took me a while to realize that I didnít want to go back to Airways. Then it took me a little while to realize I wanted to leave the Fortune 500 flight department I was working for. Next thing I knew, I was over 40 and applying for my fourth major airline - and definitely not the youngest guy in class anymore.

Nowadays a lot of the Captains I fly with are younger than I am - and apparently better decision makers! [emoji23]


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hoover
10-20-2018, 07:02 PM
I gave a SW guy a checkout in a 182 in 1999 and he mentioned I should come to SW when I had the chance. I remember thinking no way do I want to fly a 737 for the rest of my career. All I wanted to do was long haul international .
Glad I ignored my own advice and after meeting the mins then applying for over 10 yrs I made it. Glad I did. I shudder anytime the leg is over 2 hrs now

RJSAviator76
10-20-2018, 09:00 PM
I guess I'd better start voting YES! on concessions like the rest of you! ;)

Well Slip, since nowadays everyone here is actually GETTING PAID to get a 737 type rating if they don't have one already, I'd say that's definitely a step in the right direction, wouldn't you? :p

If only now we could get the company to pay for uniforms, jackets, parking, CrewBid, CrewBuddy... who knows. But on the second thought, let's not press to test that one as it may bankrupt the company. :D

SlipKid
10-21-2018, 07:03 AM
Well Slip, since nowadays everyone here is actually GETTING PAID to get a 737 type rating if they don't have one already, I'd say that's definitely a step in the right direction, wouldn't you? :p

Absolutely! The type was a stupid hiring requirement, especially since it wasn't required by the feds for FOs to have it back then. I am glad it's gone.

That said, the market has changed markedly in the last decade, and the company had no choice but to eliminate it if they wanted to get enough folks to apply.

If only now we could get the company to pay for uniforms, jackets, parking, CrewBid, CrewBuddy... who knows.

How about being made whole, at least, for the 800? The pilots, through crack "negotiating" by SWApA, and then voting YES! for SL6, essentially, paid for, and continue to pay to fly it, and it's trickled down to the 700s too. Funny how that's rarely mentioned.


But on the second thought, let's not press to test that one as it may bankrupt the company. :D

Don't worry, 84% of us will ensure that never happens. ;)

Smokey23
10-21-2018, 03:02 PM
If only now we could get the company to pay for uniforms, jackets, parking, CrewBid, CrewBuddy... who knows. But on the second thought, let's not press to test that one as it may bankrupt the company. :D


I go back & forth on this issue. Since all the above are basically just another form of compensation, I think I would prefer to have our NC focus on being the highest-paid pilots in the business while I focus on getting the best value for my uniform, parking, headset, or any other tools of my trade. Not only is this simpler for all involved, it is also based on my nearly two decades of always receiving from our cheap-a$$ airline, the absolute lowest-cost, barely-does-the-job product or service**. To wit:

Headset? Telex ANR-850 (no thanks)

Uniforms? M&H (no thanks)

Parking? If it were actually provided here in PHX, I guarantee it would be the 44th St lot (a big no thanks)

You get the idea. Why spend negotiating capital on something that I will never use? I grant we have the worst of both worlds now (not the best paid and not comped for the incidentals) but something to think about for 2020.


**Credit where credit is due: the ONE exception to this rule are the company-furnished iPads. At least they didn't take a cue from Delta and foist that POS Surface upon us!

RJSAviator76
10-21-2018, 03:14 PM
Don't worry, 84% of us will ensure that never happens. ;)

You don't think you contributed to this mindset by buying your type rating?

Gary has been around this place for over 30 years. VdV for over 25. I don't know how long RM has been around, but the point is, all these people observed throughout their entire management career here were pilots who were bending over backward to pay for their type ratings just to get an interview here.

Yes, it was a stupid requirement, but what was even dumber was that pilots who HAD to have been captains or aircraft commanders for at least 1,000 hours pay money for a type rating just to have an interview opportunity. In short, you conditioned the bean counters that this was an acceptable behavior. You also conditioned the pilot population that somehow this was an acceptable practice. For Pete's sakes, you're proud of having done it and wish you had done it sooner!

Now, you want an industry-leading contract and you're negotiating against those same bean counters who watched you, despite being highly qualified, pay thousands just for a mere opportunity to interview. Any halfway decent bean counter would rightly tell you to shut up and color, and (un)fortunately for us, we have some of the best damn bean counters in the world.

And on the other side, we have pilots who thought that paying for type ratings, uniforms, jackets, bidding software was OK. Are you really surprised that any reasonable movement towards industry standard is met with 84% yes vote? I'm not.

I'm happy that you saw the light. Now stop disparaging your SWAPA brothers and sisters and perhaps lead the way and keep showing the history of this place so we don't repeat the past mistakes... who knows, maybe we'll just get that industry-leading contract while you're still here.

full of luv
10-21-2018, 03:37 PM
I go back & forth on this issue. Since all the above are basically just another form of compensation, I think I would prefer to have our NC focus on being the highest-paid pilots in the business while I focus on getting the best value for my uniform, parking, headset, or any other tools of my trade. Not only is this simpler for all involved, it is also based on my nearly two decades of always receiving from our cheap-a$$ airline, the absolute lowest-cost, barely-does-the-job product or service**. To wit:

Headset? Telex ANR-850 (no thanks)

Uniforms? M&H (no thanks)

Parking? If it were actually provided here in PHX, I guarantee it would be the 44th St lot (a big no thanks)

You get the idea. Why spend negotiating capital on something that I will never use? I grant we have the worst of both worlds now (not the best paid and not comped for the incidentals) but something to think about for 2020.


**Credit where credit is due: the ONE exception to this rule are the company-furnished iPads. At least they didn't take a cue from Delta and foist that POS Surface upon us!

That was so 2017.... I thank Microsoft every day for despite being a "high value corporate customer" deciding to stop making the surface as a tablet style IPAD style computer (combined with Jeppesen deciding to quit supporting non-ipad based charting system) forcing Delta to transition over to the IPAD with the rest of the aviation world.

SlipKid
10-21-2018, 06:29 PM
You don't think you contributed to this mindset by buying your type rating?

LOL... You're really stretching now....

Gary has been around this place for over 30 years. VdV for over 25. I don't know how long RM has been around, but the point is, all these people observed throughout their entire management career here were pilots who were bending over backward to pay for their type ratings just to get an interview here.

As I said earlier, you just had to have it, you didn't have to buy it. They didn't care or even ask how I got it or any of my other types for that matter.

IIRC, it was originally an insurance thing.

Yes, it was a stupid requirement, but what was even dumber was that pilots who HAD to have been captains or aircraft commanders for at least 1,000 hours pay money for a type rating just to have an interview opportunity.

Yeah, it would've been much smarter for me to keep waiting a few (more) years until the legacies started hiring again, and subsequently gotten furloughed for 10 years instead of riding out the lost decade in the left seat of a 737 at SW. Would that have made me a "career defender"?

In short, you conditioned the bean counters that this was an acceptable behavior. You also conditioned the pilot population that somehow this was an acceptable practice.

I conditioned them? You're a hoot man.

For Pete's sakes, you're proud of having done it and wish you had done it sooner!

No prouder than I was paying for my own college, private, instrument, commercial, multi, ATP etc. as I was moving up the career ladder.

Should I have been a true "career defender", and waited around for someone else to pay for those too?

And of course I would've done it sooner! I'd love to have gotten out of the regionals sooner, and had never done the night freight gig at all, not to mention I'd be in the top 3-4% vs. 7%. You do understand the basic tenets of seniority, right?

Be honest. If, knowing what you know now, you could go back 25 years, pay for your type to satisfy a hiring requirement at the only airline that was hiring, and would now be sitting in the top 7% at SW, would you?

If you say no, you're lying. ;)

Now, you want an industry-leading contract and you're negotiating against those same bean counters who watched you, despite being highly qualified, pay thousands just for a mere opportunity to interview.

I am not following your logic.

I have ALWAYS wanted an industry leading contract, and have been fighting for one for most of my time here.

I don't deserve an industry leading contract because I paid for a type rating, in order to score an interview at the only major airline hiring at the time, along with most of my other ratings, 25+ years ago?

Did you pay for any of your training in your career, including college? If so, then by your logic, you don't deserve an industry leading contract either.

Any halfway decent bean counter would rightly tell you to shut up and color, and (un)fortunately for us, we have some of the best damn bean counters in the world.

All companies do that, regardless of whether their pilots had their types prior to being hired or not. We're just amongst the best pilot group when it comes to shutting up and coloring.

And on the other side, we have pilots who thought that paying for type ratings, uniforms, jackets, bidding software was OK. Are you really surprised that any reasonable movement towards industry standard is met with 84% yes vote? I'm not.

I am not surprised at the TA2 vote. I am surprised that you think I might've been.

This is the same pilot group that in 2012, overwhelmingly voted yes for the concession ridden 2009 contract, as well as it's 17 concessionary side letters, every one of which has cost us QOL, money and/or section 6 leverage. There is long history of giving away the store prior to that too.

I was surprised that only 38% of you voted yes for the latest TA1.

That was a solid, old school SWApA "negotiated", 50%+1 contract, that typically would've garnered at least an 80%+ yes vote.

This pilot group has ratified so many turds over the years, most of them costing us big $$ and QOL, that our latest industry lagging contract is a home run, by comparison. Of course it passed.

I'm happy that you saw the light.

I did?

I've always thought that the type requirement was stupid, which is why I delayed getting it for a few years. I also think that the 4 year degree requirement (for most airlines) is even more inane.

Now stop disparaging your SWAPA brothers and sisters and perhaps lead the way and keep showing the history of this place so we don't repeat the past mistakes... who knows, maybe we'll just get that industry-leading contract while you're still here.

LOL... I'll stop disparaging you guys when you stop making the same dumb mistakes.

Oh, and I've been "leading the way" around here for over 2 decades.

The vast majority of this group is lazy and apathetic when it comes to contract and union stuff.

Ironically, like you, most of this group is willing to bust their butts working extra on their days off to make up for our industry lagging contract, but won't take the time to educate themselves about stuff that might actually alleviate the need to work so hard, if they'd only vote no once in a while.

Some things never change. :eek:

FWIW, I think that once the kool aid finally wears off, and you've witnessed this pilot group in action a few more times, you'll start seeing the light. :D

SlipKid
10-21-2018, 07:55 PM
I made a mistake in the last post. We voted on the 2006 contract in 2009. We voted on some concessionary side letters to said contract in 2012. :eek:

RJSAviator76
10-22-2018, 07:29 AM
As I said earlier, you just had to have it, you didn't have to buy it. They didn't care or even ask how I got it or any of my other types for that matter.

IIRC, it was originally an insurance thing.

Yep, I remember that and you're right, it was an insurance thing.


Yeah, it would've been much smarter for me to keep waiting a few (more) years until the legacies started hiring again, and subsequently gotten furloughed for 10 years instead of riding out the lost decade in the left seat of a 737 at SW. Would that have made me a "career defender"?

So you were actually clairvoyant and chose to pay for your 737 type rating in order to avoid the entire mess that followed 9/11, the lost decade, etc. Wow, I bow to the Oracle. ;)


I conditioned them? You're a hoot man.

Perhaps "y'all" would have been more appropriate and easier to understand?




No prouder than I was paying for my own college, private, instrument, commercial, multi, ATP etc. as I was moving up the career ladder.

Should I have been a true "career defender", and waited around for someone else to pay for those too?

And of course I would've done it sooner! I'd love to have gotten out of the regionals sooner, and had never done the night freight gig at all, not to mention I'd be in the top 3-4% vs. 7%. You do understand the basic tenets of seniority, right?

Come on Slip... NO major airline required type ratings except SW and you know it. NO national airline required type ratings, either. Trannies didn't pay for their DC-9 or 737 types. Buying a type rating for an interview is not even the same friggin sport as paying for your private or commercial, and you know it.


Be honest. If, knowing what you know now, you could go back 25 years, pay for your type to satisfy a hiring requirement at the only airline that was hiring, and would now be sitting in the top 7% at SW, would you?

If you say no, you're lying.

If I could go back 25 years, I'd just buy a winning lottery ticket or two, get a G-IV and offer you to fly me around, but only as long as you bought your own type rating... ;)


I have ALWAYS wanted an industry leading contract, and have been fighting for one for most of my time here.

I don't deserve an industry leading contract because I paid for a type rating, in order to score an interview at the only major airline hiring at the time, along with most of my other ratings, 25+ years ago?

Did you pay for any of your training in your career, including college? If so, then by your logic, you don't deserve an industry leading contract either.

Read above... no other major or national airline required applicants to have type ratings in their equipment just to get an interview, let alone a job.



All companies do that, regardless of whether their pilots had their types prior to being hired or not. We're just amongst the best pilot group when it comes to shutting up and coloring.

Why do you think that is? Think about it. Every other airline would hire from the same pool of pilots - military, civilian, corporate, etc. So shutting up and coloring must be from the water in Dallas then... ;)

I also hate to disappoint you, I don't think I'm a koolaid drinker either, but unlike you, I do have faith in our pilot group. I have to. But again, unlike you, I won't disparage them for voting counter to my vote. My only hope is that everyone makes an informed vote and that's why historical perspectives and analyses matter and that's why I urge you to keep writing but preferably without disparaging remarks because the message gets lost. I also don't sit here and gripe all day about what an industry-lagging place this is. I play the cards I've been dealt and do OK. If that's koolaid drinking to you... oh well!

But to finally bring it all down, I'm glad that your career choices worked out for you. You acted in your best self-interests, much like 5 out of every 6 pilots did when they voted on TA2. You're pointing out how we settle for less than industry-leading or industry-standard and you did the same when you bought your type. To put it nicely... be nice, but preach on.

Cheers!

SlipKid
10-22-2018, 09:13 AM
So you were actually clairvoyant and chose to pay for your 737 type rating in order to avoid the entire mess that followed 9/11, the lost decade, etc. Wow, I bow to the Oracle. ;)

I paid for a type rating to get the best job available at the time. The rest was kismet, so un bow.


Come on Slip... NO major airline required type ratings except SW and you know it. NO national airline required type ratings, either.

C'mon RJ. NO majors were hiring and you know it. NO nationals either.


Trannies didn't pay for their DC-9 or 737 types.

That might be true, but many of them paid for their actual jobs at Valujet, regardless of the type ratings they held prior.

Many of them also crossed a certain line at a large major in 1989. I am pretty sure we inherited and injected a substantial number of those "career defenders" into our seniority list during the Tran acquisition, so maybe a different example would better prove your point.

Buying a type rating for an interview not even the same friggin sport as paying for your private or commercial, and you know it.

All of them, including the type, were required to meet the minimum hiring qualifications for the job at SW.

It's definitely not the same as voting yes on concessions to the most profitable airline in the US, that you already work for either.


If I could go back 25 years, I'd just buy a winning lottery ticket or two, get a G-IV and offer you to fly me around, but only as long as you bought your own type rating... ;)

Nice deflection.

I'd pass.



Read above... no other major or national airline required applicants to have type ratings in their equipment just to get an interview, let alone a job.

Read above. No major or national airlines were hiring, rendering that point moot. I "played the cards I was dealt".

A little history:

Since we were pretty much the only act in town, SW had lines of applicants out the door when I got hired in the mid '90's.

We were hiring something on the order of 1 out of every 12 applicants, and they got thousands of applications on the one day per year that the apps were accepted. The app had to be postmarked on that particular day or they'd reject it.

It took me over a year to get the interview call, then another 6 months for the class date. I was the only one hired in my interview group of a dozen or so.

Even after the rest of the industry started hiring again, we still required the type, and still got thousands of apps every time the window briefly opened up.


Why do you think that is? Think about it. Every other airline would hire from the same pool of pilots - military, civilian, corporate, etc. So shutting up and coloring must be from the water in Dallas then... ;)

Good a theory as any.

I've always figured that they inject some kind of kool aid spray, that only a few (16%?) are immune to, into the ventilation systems at the GO and TC.

Now... how it all turned out as a result of 9/11 and the lost decade is irrelevant as it was entirely Lady Luck smiling at you and your roll of the dice.

I certainly got lucky, and I am the first to admit that. But it wasn't entirely luck. I had the opportunity to go to 2 legacies, which I was definitely open to, a few years after getting hired here. I kept my apps up to date, and ended up interviewing/getting job offers from both of them.

I am nothing if not pragmatic, so, in the end, I passed on both, mainly because they'd been hiring like gangbusters for a year prior, a recession was looming, and I didn't want to be on the bottom of a list when the music inevitably stopped. I was 2/3 of the way up the FO list here at the time, and upgrade was less than 2 years away.

While, in the long run, I would've been far better off at either under their pre 9/11 contracts, especially wrt retirement, I simply couldn't afford a potential, years long furlough. And that was before 9/11.

At the time of you writing that check, you didn't exactly help the profession - you were admittedly looking after your own self-interests.

I didn't exactly harm the profession either.

Of course I looked after my own self interest and that of my career. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.


So again, what's the difference between you and your typical 84% yes voter?

Umm, I've voted no on every concession that the 84%ers have granted over the last 22+ years...

They're looking after their interests much like you did when you wrote that check and screw the rest.

LOL... They've screwed themselves/us over and over again. How, exactly, is that looking after their best interests?


I also hate to disappoint you, I don't think I'm a koolaid drinker either, but unlike you, I do have faith in our pilot group.

As I said, give them a chance. Once the Kool Aid wears off, I think you'll come around. Or you'll pull a SMITR. I'm giving 50/50 odds right now.


I have to. But again, unlike you, I won't disparage them for voting counter to my vote. My only hope is that everyone makes an informed vote and that's why historical perspectives and analyses matter and that's why I urge you to keep writing but preferably without disparaging remarks because the message gets lost.

Wait a few years, then tell me how much faith you've got in this pilot group. That's why I urge you to keep reading and researching some history of this place. You'll find that the disparagement is well earned.

I also don't sit here and gripe all day about what an industry-lagging place this is.

True. You work 20+ days per month and then turn around and tell everyone on here how easy it is to make more than your friends at the legacies. Then you disparage those of us that point it out. Not exactly a model of "career defender".

I play the cards I've been dealt and do OK. If that's koolaid drinking to you... oh well!

The irony of this statement is, quite frankly, staggering.

But to finally bring it all down, I'm glad that your career choices worked out for you.

Me too.

You acted in your best self-interests, much like 5 out of every 6 pilots did when they voted on TA2.

Since when is shooting yourself in the foot, repeatedly, acting in your best self (not to mention the group's) -interest?

You're pointing out how we settle for less than industry-leading or industry-standard and you did the same when you bought your type.

Paying for training/college etc. to meet minimum hiring requirements is far different, for example, than voting to effectively pay to fly a larger airplane at a profitable major that you already work for.



To put it nicely... be nice, but preach on.

Cheers!

Thanks for the advice, mom.

RJSAviator76
10-22-2018, 10:12 AM
Slip, you keep talking about voting against concessions.

Voting to freeze/terminate your A-plan and turning it over to PBGC and getting 20 cents on a dollar if you're lucky, is a concession. Voting to accept a smaller NEC contribution when you don't even have one to begin with isn't. It may be selling yourself short, but it ain't a concession.

Voting to take a paycut from $231.54/TFP to $162.07 (30% paycut) is a concession. Accepting the same rate across all versions of 737's without taking a pay cut is not. Naive maybe, shouldn't have happened, but it's not a concession.

A concession in our world is when you give up something you have. To say this pilot group voted for concessions is false equivalency and is insulting to those of us who have been down that road.

Also, I don't disparage you for pointing out that I may be working more than my peers at legacies. In fact, I encourage you to, but please be objective and accurate.

SlipKid
10-22-2018, 10:27 AM
Slip, you keep talking about voting against concessions.

Voting to freeze/terminate your A-plan and turning it over to PBGC and getting 20 cents on a dollar if you're lucky, is a concession. Voting to accept a smaller NEC contribution when you don't even have one to begin with isn't. It may be selling yourself short, but it ain't a concession.

Voting to take a paycut from $231.54/TFP to $162.07 (30% paycut) is a concession. Accepting the same rate across all versions of 737's without taking a pay cut is not. Naive maybe, shouldn't have happened, but it's not a concession.

A concession in our world is when you give up something you have. To say this pilot group voted for concessions is false equivalency and is insulting to those of us who have been down that road.

I am well aware of the definition of concession. I encourage you to take a look back at the stuff that this pilot group has voted to give up over the years, and get back to me. A lot of the things you and everyone else complains about are the direct result of either a membership vote, or SWApA unilaterally imposing it on us.


Also, I don't disparage you for pointing out that I may be working more than my peers at legacies. In fact, I encourage you to, but please be objective and accurate.

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies. ;)

Proximity
10-24-2018, 01:23 PM
I am well aware of the definition of concession. I encourage you to take a look back at the stuff that this pilot group has voted to give up over the years, and get back to me. A lot of the things you and everyone else complains about are the direct result of either a membership vote, or SWApA unilaterally imposing it on us.


I was thinking if there was an award for the most negative poster in the Southwest threads at APC, it would be SlipKid. I kinda of sympathized because I understand some of your issues, but then I saw you call out another poster by name and in my mind, you crossed a line.

I wonder, what is you purpose of posting here? It's certainly not to educate, as your high and mighty "Dad knows best" style of posting likely falls on deaf ears with most the FOs and recent Captains.

In contrast to WHACK, who has some basis to complain, I think you might be somewhat cocooned in your own success. You came here at just the right time, upgraded in around 4-5 years (internet is not as anonymous as you might think), and spent the "lost decade" in the left seat while many of us the post here had our careers put on hold by age 65 and two recessions.

I don't mean to disparage anyone who's been successful, in fact, that's great that you did so well. Moreover, some of your success was due to deciding to stick around SWA before 9/11, in contrast to most pilots who's successes are just dumb luck.

However, I think a little humbleness would go a long way. Some of your complaints are due to changes in the way Southwest operates overall, and/or have been beneficial to the pilot group as a whole. For example, the lack of PM trips in MCO is because trips were changed to reduce fatigue to the whole pilot group. The willingness of CAs in MCO to fly weekends is likely due to pilot group aging and no longer having children as home. Your issues with your commute are due to infrastructure problems in SW Florida, not anything to do with SWA or SWAPA. The reduction in TFP/day is partly due to longer turn times in order to fix our OTP.

When you posted that RJS should "do his research" I'm sure you know the difficulty in doing so. I'm willing though to give you benefit the doubt if you can list out three major concessions (more if you want) that this pilot group and/or SWAPA has agreed to during your tenure at SWA. I'd have to agree with RJS that flying the 800s for the same rates, while a naive move, was not a concession, so make your issues good ones.

Looking forward to your response.

SlipKid
10-24-2018, 03:47 PM
I was thinking if there was an award for the most negative poster in the Southwest threads at APC, it would be SlipKid.

No argument there.

I kinda of sympathized because I understand some of your issues, but then I saw you call out another poster by name and in my mind, you crossed a line.

I, uncharacteristically, allowed that poster to get to me when he got personal. Mea Culpa.

I've already apologized to him.


I wonder, what is you purpose of posting here? It's certainly not to educate, as your high and mighty "Dad knows best" style of posting likely falls on deaf ears with most the FOs and recent Captains.

Nothing new there.

You're 100% right, it is a complete waste of time, since you guys will continue to do the same things I and others warn you about.

You guys can keep telling potential recruits about how "easy" it is to earn 150+ tfp per month, only working a "few extra days".

S.A.I.E.W.

In contrast to WHACK, who has some basis to complain, I think you might be somewhat cocooned in your own success. You came here at just the right time, upgraded in around 4-5 years (internet is not as anonymous as you might think), and spent the "lost decade" in the left seat while many of us the post here had our careers put on hold by age 65 and two recessions.

I have never complained about how my career at SW has played out. I wouldn't trade careers with the vast majority of my contemporaries.

I am not going down the AT SLI rabbit hole and who was harmed/who wasn't. Through no fault, (or credit) of my own, I was not harmed in the least. Well, other than a few scabs, that are all gone now, placed before me on the list. :eek:

I am aware that the internet is not anonymous (especially when you're friends with a moderator ;) ). I always assume that folks know who I am, mainly because I don't go to great lengths to hide it. Conversely, it's pretty easy to figure out who many of the other prolific posters are.

I don't mean to disparage anyone who's been successful, in fact, that's great that you did so well. Moreover, some of your success was due to deciding to stick around SWA before 9/11, in contrast to most pilots who's successes are just dumb luck.

No argument whatsoever. It WAS mostly dumb luck that it's worked out well here for me, and I've said it, repeatedly.

However, I think a little humbleness would go a long way.

How ironic.

Some of your complaints are due to changes in the way Southwest operates overall, and/or have been beneficial to the pilot group as a whole. For example, the lack of PM trips in MCO is because trips were changed to reduce fatigue to the whole pilot group.

How is disproportionately forcing AM (or PM trips, for that matter) on select parts of the pilot group beneficial for the whole group?


The willingness of CAs in MCO to fly weekends is likely due to pilot group aging and no longer having children as home.

They are? Weekday trips are gone out of ELITT/TTGA by the time you get a LT text.

Your issues with your commute are due to infrastructure problems in SW Florida, not anything to do with SWA or SWAPA.

I never would've guessed. I've also never blamed SWA or SWApA for it, so why even bring it up?

The reduction in TFP/day is partly due to longer turn times in order to fix our OTP.

When you posted that RJS should "do his research" I'm sure you know the difficulty in doing so.

It's not that difficult, although the forum scrub didn't help much.


I'm willing though to give you benefit the doubt if you can list out three major concessions (more if you want) that this pilot group and/or SWAPA has agreed to during your tenure at SWA. I'd have to agree with RJS that flying the 800s for the same rates, while a naive move, was not a concession, so make your issues good ones.

A few, off the top of my head, that have cost the most QOL and pay are:

Since you mentioned it..... SL6.

True, we get the same hourly rate for the -800, but because of the longer turn times, we're working longer days for the same or less pay. Many of us argued, before the vote, that the rig needed to be adjusted to reflect the longer turn times/days.

Another great one associated with the 800 was the concession of retro in 2012, due to the 0% raise SWApA skilfully "negotiated" for the contract extension that was inexplicably attached to SL6.
We paid and are still paying to fly the 800. Now the longer turn times have trickled down to the entire fleet.

DTC. Forced on us by SWApA a few years after ELITT started. They were so awesome, that we voted in far more DTC in the next contract, which we still have today. It could've been worse. The 2009 TA1 included roughly twice the allowable DTC than we ended up with in TA2. DTC easily costs a few K per month, not to mention a lot more time on ELITT/TTGA if you're unfortunate enough to get stuck starting on a friday or saturday.

Evisceration of the lance program. Much like DTC, this was like throwing sand in the cogs of the flexibility machine, which directly affects pay and QOL.

SL17. We allowed synthetic restrictions, that the company is allowed to violate at will. Although it's not an issue nowadays due to lack of open time, back when we had open time, I was constantly hitting a block or duty restriction when trying to trade or pick up, again, costing money.

Other notables:

SL12/14, the Duplex Strategery. Ever wonder why you get happy meals on international trips.

JA at work instead of home officially turned all of us into online reserves. Definite QOL concession, even though the 6.5 for being forced to work your day off is "double" time.

That'll get you started.

symbian simian
10-24-2018, 09:40 PM
Great job guys, 4 pages without a single "PBS", "line" or "bidding"

ZapBrannigan
10-26-2018, 07:53 AM
I have vacation in November. Started off with a line that has 4 weekend trips. Two of those trips dropped because they touched the vacation week. Full pay on one, partial pay on the other. That left me with days off from the 6th through the 24th.

During line improvement I moved the trip on the 24th to the 30th. Now off from the 6th through the 30th... all with one week of vacation. I was never able to do anything like that with PBS at brand X.

(Iím sure Iíll fly a few days in there somewhere to pad the pay... but the point is, I donít have to!)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SlipKid
10-26-2018, 09:12 AM
I have vacation in November. Started off with a line that has 4 weekend trips. Two of those trips dropped because they touched the vacation week. Full pay on one, partial pay on the other. That left me with days off from the 6th through the 24th.

During line improvement I moved the trip on the 24th to the 30th. Now off from the 6th through the 30th... all with one week of vacation. I was never able to do anything like that with PBS at brand X.

(Iím sure Iíll fly a few days in there somewhere to pad the pay... but the point is, I donít have to!)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Amen brother. Our system isn't perfect, but it's pretty darn good. ;)

Proximity
10-26-2018, 03:48 PM
During line improvement I moved the trip on the 24th to the 30th. Now off from the 6th through the 30th... all with one week of vacation. I was never able to do anything like that with PBS at brand X.


I have vacation 1st week of December...unfortunately that means they don't pull it until December bid is out. So when ELITT started I couldn't move my trip on the 23rd because I was over on block. I managed to catch a couple NZs but the 23rd went red. I've already told SWAPA the buffers/block restrictions are crap and I hope they are fixed. I have reserve this weekend I promise you I'm going to fly much closing to zero block then 20. Since you always underblock, the further out a block limit is, the less affect it should have on you.

Point is I understand some of the stuff SlipKid brought up.

Al Czervik
10-26-2018, 04:56 PM
We are NOT good about negotiating rules with teeth to protect the pilots.

This is true EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS.