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View Full Version : Fatigue is BS


Al Czervik
10-10-2018, 03:34 AM
Brilliant.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-ottawa-must-diverge-from-its-wrong-path-to-air-safety/


BoilerUP
10-10-2018, 03:48 AM
Yes, let’s use a pre-117 incident and a carved-out-of-117 cargo accident to make the point that fatigue policies are ineffective.

This passes for academia???

RhinoBallAuto
10-10-2018, 06:51 AM
"...few, if any, studies..."
(includes link to a study)

Not academia, biased media.


rickair7777
10-10-2018, 07:01 AM
"...few, if any, studies..."
(includes link to a study)

Not academia, biased media.

Sounds more like bought off by the canadian air transport association.

Rama
10-10-2018, 09:23 AM
Its always annoying how someone who has no experience in the field tries to make an argument for or against something when they really have no idea what they are talking about.

HandyUghes
10-10-2018, 10:08 AM
Love that they call our regs "science-based". Part 117 is a hand wavy regulation with the word "circadian" thrown in to make it sound science-y. Airlines can still twist your sleep all over the place as long as you get ten hours of rest. What's sad is how amazing and efficient airline scheduling could be with modern tech. Instead the unions and old school software still in use keep us stuck in 1995. Part 117 should be more like DO-178b instead of a series of stupid bullet points.

gipple
10-10-2018, 12:40 PM
Love that they call our regs "science-based". Part 117 is a hand wavy regulation with the word "circadian" thrown in to make it sound science-y. Airlines can still twist your sleep all over the place as long as you get ten hours of rest. What's sad is how amazing and efficient airline scheduling could be with modern tech. Instead the unions and old school software still in use keep us stuck in 1995. Part 117 should be more like DO-178b instead of a series of stupid bullet points.

Never forget that the FAA never has the pilots' best interest in mind. They are in existence solely to promote aviation. ie air commerce.
F M

rickair7777
10-10-2018, 01:36 PM
Never forget that the FAA never has the pilots' best interest in mind. They are in existence solely to promote aviation. ie air commerce.
F M

But they can only kill so many paying pax in pursuit of commerce.

GuppyPuppy
10-10-2018, 07:39 PM
My company had a fatigue training module last year that told us we should get sleep at consistent times each day.

Then they build 5-day trips with 3 circadian flips.

If you complain, their response is, "It's legal!"

Gup

Big E 757
10-10-2018, 07:58 PM
My company had a fatigue training module last year that told us we should get sleep at consistent times each day.

Then they build 5-day trips with 3 circadian flips.

If you complain, their response is, "It's legal!"

Gup

When I was in my 20’s and early 30’s, I had no problem sleeping when I could, and either getting up at 3-4 am and working till mid afternoon, or being up till 12-1 am with very little problem staying awake and alert. What kills me these days is when I have one trip with late night flying, getting to the hotel around 1 am every night (morning) and then a day or two off at home where I’m not getting to sleep till late, but getting up for my wife and getting the kids off to school to give her a break, and then the next trip is all early mornings with 4 am pickups at the hotel.

After 8 or so days of that, I’m toast. I’ll be sitting on the couch staring off into space. My wife will say, “Why don’t you go to bed?” and even though I’m exhausted, I know it’s going to be a while before I fall asleep. After that many days of having an upset sleep schedule, I’m very fatigued, but I’ve been trying to stay awake for so long, I can’t just hit the off button and go to sleep.

I’m sure together, with some CIA guys at a black ops site, we could come up with a week long program to introduce this reporter to “fatigue”.

FollowMe
10-11-2018, 03:33 AM
TLDR: “NTSB suggests Canada adopt tighter duty and rest regs, ACPA suggests copying 117, author says that’s stupid because we still have fatigue events in the US so obviously 117 doesn’t work.”

We should get rid of airbags and seatbelts too.

Spin
10-11-2018, 04:39 AM
And what happened to that study NASA did about 20-25 years ago?
If I recall well, I think it said max duty should be 10 hours, with an extension to 12.
I never heard of it anymore since then.

4V14T0R
10-11-2018, 04:47 AM
TLDR: “NTSB suggests Canada adopt tighter duty and rest regs, ACPA suggests copying 117, author says that’s stupid because we still have fatigue events in the US so obviously 117 doesn’t work.”



We should get rid of airbags and seatbelts too.



Exactly, and the 2 examples used for why not adopting something 117-like were operations not covered by 117.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

galaxy flyer
10-11-2018, 07:12 AM
Simple solution—invite the writer to a couple schedules while remaining awake and alert for the same hours as the crew. A daytime sleep period while the maids rattle down the hall should be included. I did that for my schedulers in the AF, they got respect from the experience.

GF

Flyfalcons
10-11-2018, 08:29 AM
I’m sure together, with some CIA guys at a black ops site, we could come up with a week long program to introduce this reporter to “fatigue”.

Or a jumpseat pass for a week long trip with the same crew, duty times, and hotels.

symbian simian
10-11-2018, 11:02 AM
Simple solution—invite the writer to a couple schedules while remaining awake and alert for the same hours as the crew. A daytime sleep period while the maids rattle down the hall should be included. I did that for my schedulers in the AF, they got respect from the experience.

GF

A few companies ago I worked ACMI. Trips were 10 on 5 off. You didn't always work every day, but there were several schedules that had 4 (one had 6/day) legs, 2hour flights either AM or PM, 10 days in a row (first day you did 2 because of commute in). we invited some schedulers to join us on the jumpseat. results were unanimous: "this is a paid vacation" for the first four days, "Can I please stay in the hotel" for day 6 to 9, "god, can't wait to get home, there is no way I want to go again in just 5 days" on day 10. Didn't change the schedule, but definitely helped if you asked for an extra day off.

gipple
10-11-2018, 03:33 PM
Simple solution—invite the writer to a couple schedules while remaining awake and alert for the same hours as the crew. A daytime sleep period while the maids rattle down the hall should be included. I did that for my schedulers in the AF, they got respect from the experience.

GF

Don’t forget to make them follow you for a food run and a **** break. They have to deal with uncomfortable hotel temperature, beds, pillows etc. Loud door slamming and amateur neighbors. Lousy food.
Noisy cockpits and no iPhone or iPad in the cockpit. No newspaper reading either. Let’s see how they respond to that for multiple days in a row. The polyester FAA brigade should be made to do the same.
F M

drinksonme
10-11-2018, 04:06 PM
Funny.... I though Canada was progressive with their PM Trudeau.

Wonder what the “powers that be” would have said if that Air Canada had hit 4 planes in SFO while trying to land on a taxiway with......4 *******ing planes on it. Would have been the worse accident in history, and I would have lost a close friend of mine possibly , FO on the United 737.

They would have said that is was the crews fault for being fatigued and flying and dying. Easy out to blame 2 then a government of scum

tomgoodman
10-11-2018, 04:27 PM
A quick Google search found several articles by the same author, all of them suggesting that fatigue hasn’t been satisfactorily proven, fixes are not cost-effective, safety must be balanced against profits, and other such balderdash. :rolleyes:

galaxy flyer
10-11-2018, 05:21 PM
Don’t forget to make them follow you for a food run and a **** break. They have to deal with uncomfortable hotel temperature, beds, pillows etc. Loud door slamming and amateur neighbors. Lousy food.
Noisy cockpits and no iPhone or iPad in the cockpit. No newspaper reading either.

Food run? It was the Air Force, you paid for a box lunch on 17-hour day! Ramstein had noisy exercises complete with sirens. Now, when I did the same in corporate; it was expense account meals staying at the Berlin Ritz-Carleton. It was a vacation, schedulers werent convinced it was work.

gf

detpilot
10-11-2018, 09:45 PM
Food run? It was the Air Force, you paid for a box lunch on 17-hour day! Ramstein had noisy exercises complete with sirens. Now, when I did the same in corporate; it was expense account meals staying at the Berlin Ritz-Carleton. It was a vacation, schedulers werent convinced it was work.

gfYour schedulers weren't pilots? (Serious question from a heavy guard baby)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

jcountry
10-12-2018, 04:59 AM
Yes, let’s use a pre-117 incident and a carved-out-of-117 cargo accident to make the point that fatigue policies are ineffective.

This passes for academia???

It’s Canada-so you have to grade on a curve. A steep one

galaxy flyer
10-14-2018, 05:50 AM
Your schedulers weren't pilots? (Serious question from a heavy guard baby)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I was Chief of Current Ops, butt the others were enlisted. The squadron schedulers were pilot ARTs.

GF

gipple
10-14-2018, 01:04 PM
I was Chief of Current Ops, butt the others were enlisted. The squadron schedulers were pilot ARTs.

GF

Military apples and civilian oranges.

galaxy flyer
10-14-2018, 01:48 PM
Military apples and civilian oranges.

I’m not sure what you’re addressing, but my civilian schedulers at my flight department weren’t pilots, but did go out on a few fam flights, too.

GF



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