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View Full Version : Part 91 overtime non-exempt


Flyer83
10-15-2018, 07:46 PM
Hi all, just looking to see everyone’s experience as to who was eligible for overtime and who was not. I’m operating as Part 91 corporate pilot flying twins for a startup on a fixed salary. Just courious if there is a salary threshold that would make me exempt from being eligible for overtime, or if all pilots are all eligible for overtime pay. I have seen the recent article regarding the pilots in AK, but never saw if they were operating under Part 91 or what their salaries were.
I’m in in the SF Bay Area, and just looking to see everyone’s experience.

Cheers


TiredSoul
10-16-2018, 02:58 AM
You should probably take a look at Cali Labor Laws regarding overtime for salaried workers.

Flyer83
10-16-2018, 08:33 AM
If it were only that simple. California does not specify whether they consider pilots to be exempt professionals. Alaska has ruled that pilots do not fall under the professional exempt category as there is no formal advanced technical academic training, and are therefore entitled to overtime. Other states have considered ATP holders who fly corporate to be exempt from overtime due to the length of time / number of hours of instruction received.
The people at the other end of the phone when calling the CA dept of labor are less than knowledgeable / helpful (eerily compared to the DMV).


TiredSoul
10-20-2018, 06:06 PM
Take the next step and pay a Labor attorney for their time.
May cost you $250-$300/hr for a consultation.

kevbo
10-20-2018, 07:12 PM
Take the next step and pay a Labor attorney for their time.
May cost you $250-$300/hr for a consultation.

He would qualify as a professional BTW. OT, yea right! Part 91 is more like getting to fly for free with maybe a catered lunch. No one would do it unless they were desperate for the time.

JamesNoBrakes
10-20-2018, 08:38 PM
If it were only that simple. California does not specify whether they consider pilots to be exempt professionals. Alaska has ruled that pilots do not fall under the professional exempt category as there is no formal advanced technical academic training, and are therefore entitled to overtime. Other states have considered ATP holders who fly corporate to be exempt from overtime due to the length of time / number of hours of instruction received.
The people at the other end of the phone when calling the CA dept of labor are less than knowledgeable / helpful (eerily compared to the DMV).

The specific issue in Alaska was that an advanced degree is not necessary to be a pilot, in appears in the docket that they are referring to things such as PhD, MD, JD, etc. In that ruling, an "advanced degree" was necessary to consider the person an "exempt professional".

ZippyNH
10-21-2018, 04:52 AM
The specific issue in Alaska was that an advanced degree is not necessary to be a pilot, in appears in the docket that they are referring to things such as PhD, MD, JD, etc. In that ruling, an "advanced degree" was necessary to consider the person an "exempt professional".

An ATP is often considered an advanced degree due to the nature of it being a terminal rating in the field.....so not sure I would base the interpretation of it on that.
Remember in AK, a pilot is often viewed as one step above a Pizza delivery driver since pilots are so common...so might be more of a cultural thing as legal that caused a different interpretation.

JamesNoBrakes
10-21-2018, 06:51 AM
An ATP is often considered an advanced degree
First I've heard of this. Did you make it up? So like Master Craftsman, Master Jedi, Black Belt, Golf Pro, Wizard, etc.? I think it took me like 2 days studying with Sheppard Air to pass my ATP written. That sounds exactly like going to school for 8 years...

ZippyNH
10-21-2018, 10:36 AM
First I've heard of this. Did you make it up? So like Master Craftsman, Master Jedi, Black Belt, Golf Pro, Wizard, etc.? I think it took me like 2 days studying with Sheppard Air to pass my ATP written. That sounds exactly like going to school for 8 years...

Wording was in a decision...one of the Daniel Webster guys I flew had the link when we were talking about this very subject...he had been doing corporate stuff before switching to 91k for a pc-12 operator.
Was based upon the fact that an ATP is generally worth 2+ years of college time, and a Masters/PhD in aviation is very rare with only a couple school issuing them...so a BS WITH ATP was judged to be "terminal".
Having spent time flying up in AK, I will unequivocally say it is very different flying, both from a regulatory environment (135 ops specs are VERY different, though 121 less so in what is allowed, or that was the case before the last rewrites back in the late 90's) and a pilot job in AK is looked more akin to being almost below a truck driver since so many folks learn how to fly as just part of growing up....
So I would NOT base it based upon one AK case.
The ability to "hire and fire" is often another factor...as is pay.

JamesNoBrakes
10-21-2018, 12:27 PM
Wording was in a decision...one of the Daniel Webster guys I flew had the link when we were talking about this very subject...he had been doing corporate stuff before switching to 91k for a pc-12 operator.
Was based upon the fact that an ATP is generally worth 2+ years of college time, and a Masters/PhD in aviation is very rare with only a couple school issuing them...so a BS WITH ATP was judged to be "terminal".
Having spent time flying up in AK, I will unequivocally say it is very different flying, both from a regulatory environment (135 ops specs are VERY different, though 121 less so in what is allowed, or that was the case before the last rewrites back in the late 90's) and a pilot job in AK is looked more akin to being almost below a truck driver since so many folks learn how to fly as just part of growing up....
So I would NOT base it based upon one AK case.
The ability to "hire and fire" is often another factor...as is pay.

So "Terminal"=Advanced? That doesn't make sense, not to mention that it was said that "an ATP is often considered an advanced degree". Terminal just means you've gone as far as you can, not that you have an advanced degree.

flyupward
11-04-2018, 04:01 AM
Hi all, just looking to see everyone’s experience as to who was eligible for overtime and who was not. I’m operating as Part 91 corporate pilot flying twins for a startup on a fixed salary. Just courious if there is a salary threshold that would make me exempt from being eligible for overtime, or if all pilots are all eligible for overtime pay. I have seen the recent article regarding the pilots in AK, but never saw if they were operating under Part 91 or what their salaries were.
I’m in in the SF Bay Area, and just looking to see everyone’s experience.

Cheers

I used to work in the corporate world and transitioned into flying full-time. I was considered exempt and paid a salary because my job consisted of working more than 2,080 hours/year and the company didn't want to pay me for it. Generally you can only become eligible for OT if you're an hourly employee.

A good starting point that you could check out is the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA). I copied the URL. If that doesn't provide the answer, I would agree with the person that suggested consulting an employment attorney.

https://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime_pay.htm