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View Full Version : Envoy Air donít come here


NeedsMoreCowbel
10-18-2018, 08:49 AM
This is just a message out to anyone wanting to work here at envoy. I would highly recommend not coming right now because they have totally over staffed every aircraft except for the 175. If you get the 145 expect to sit reserve for atleast a year, unless you get New York then itís around 3. If you happen to get the CRJ like me, you should seriously walk out of your Indoc class. Do not take the bonus because it is such a large amount that you will be forced to stay. If you are a cadet or an older person then by all means come and fly the 175, however for the majority of people you will get screwed and held against your will over $22,100. IF YOU are a direct entry captain, absolutely do not come to envoy for the next 6 months. CRJ Captain staffing is very bad right now and they are putting them right on it where they will fly 80 hours a month and be controlled by Crew Scheduling for atleast a year. After the recent announcement that we will go from 50 lines to 35 by March then you will probably sit reserve for a year and a half or more. Please do not make this mistake. I wish someone couldíve told me.


hawk21
10-18-2018, 08:52 AM
All this info is readily available. You just decided to not do any research before committing to a company. What did you expect?

Skip0927
10-18-2018, 08:57 AM
Coming to envoy has been an awful decision that has been brutally painful, financially ruinous and is tearing my family apart. Go anywhere other than this place. Working here is probably on par with Air Koryo, the national airline of North Korea.


dera
10-18-2018, 09:56 AM
Can't wait to start!

SullyJR
10-18-2018, 10:05 AM
Keep the complaints coming! Stopping the flow of new hires is the only way we will ever see a pay raise.

EmbaeDriver
10-18-2018, 10:15 AM
Best company ever, idk what you talking about

RomeoBravo
10-18-2018, 10:16 AM
But if you drive to work itís a really good place to be. Perspective is everything.

We have tons of choices in this industry and there are clearly reasons why those that are unhappy today, initially came here.

Among the top choices are likely:
Flow
Bonus
Hope of flying the E-175

Anyone thatís this unhappy as evident in this post should make a change that best suits their needs today. Why live unhappy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dera
10-18-2018, 10:20 AM
But if you drive to work itís a really good place to be. Perspective is everything.

We have tons of choices in this industry and there are clearly reasons why those that are unhappy today, initially came here.

Among the top choices are likely:
Flow
Bonus
Hope of flying the E-175

Anyone thatís this unhappy as evident in this post should make a change that best suits their needs today. Why live unhappy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even if I have to commute for a few months, looks like DFW(which means drive to work for me) is available within first year. No big deal.

E175 Driver
10-18-2018, 10:21 AM
This is just a message out to anyone wanting to work here at envoy. I would highly recommend not coming right now because they have totally over staffed every aircraft except for the 175. If you get the 145 expect to sit reserve for atleast a year, unless you get New York then itís around 3. If you happen to get the CRJ like me, you should seriously walk out of your Indoc class. Do not take the bonus because it is such a large amount that you will be forced to stay. If you are a cadet or an older person then by all means come and fly the 175, however for the majority of people you will get screwed and held against your will over $22,100. IF YOU are a direct entry captain, absolutely do not come to envoy for the next 6 months. CRJ Captain staffing is very bad right now and they are putting them right on it where they will fly 80 hours a month and be controlled by Crew Scheduling for atleast a year. After the recent announcement that we will go from 50 lines to 35 by March then you will probably sit reserve for a year and a half or more. Please do not make this mistake. I wish someone couldíve told me.

We have the flow to offset this.

Dalda Erlines
10-18-2018, 10:26 AM
We have the flow to offset this.

Yeah, you have flow! So be grateful for the 10 years itíll take to get to AA.

dera
10-18-2018, 10:27 AM
Yeah, you have flow! So be grateful for the 10 years itíll take to get to AA.

More like 6-7 right now.

Dalda Erlines
10-18-2018, 10:27 AM
More like 6-7 right now.

Oh my mistake...only 7 years.

NoValueAviator
10-18-2018, 10:42 AM
Lol, there's nothing wrong with Envoy...

... if you get the 175. Otherwise, this place may in fact be the worst regional in the US right now. It definitely is if you're a commuter.

The flow is guaranteed movement. For captains. You can't upgrade unless you fly, and you won't fly here.

I'm on the hook already, I've wasted a year here stagnant, involuntary reserve getting no hours. This in bases where other companies need pilots, and are hiring and flying them like crazy while paying them way more and rewarding with good work rules, schedules, etc. If you're on the outside looking in, it isn't worth it. Unless you WANT to sit reserve as an FO forever, run.

Even being a cadet won't save you now, they've done all 145 classes recently.

EmbaeDriver
10-18-2018, 10:50 AM
Oh my mistake...only 7 years.

Butt hurt my friend? The number will keep going down. Go to EDV then get the money and good luck with the application review haha.

NiceToMeetU2
10-18-2018, 11:46 AM
Lol, I love my job here at Envoy. I hope you quit so I can move up in seniority.

in2deep
10-18-2018, 01:44 PM
But if you drive to work itís a really good place to be. Perspective is everything.

We have tons of choices in this industry and there are clearly reasons why those that are unhappy today, initially came here.

Among the top choices are likely:
Flow
Bonus
Hope of flying the E-175

Anyone thatís this unhappy as evident in this post should make a change that best suits their needs today. Why live unhappy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I came here wanting none of those things. My hope/expectation was to get 145 LGA initially and be able to base transfer to where the flying is. That didnít happen and there is no way to know that before coming to class. This place is a QOL **** hole.

havick206
10-18-2018, 02:05 PM
I came here wanting none of those things. My hope/expectation was to get 145 LGA initially and be able to base transfer to where the flying is. That didnít happen and there is no way to know that before coming to class. This place is a QOL **** hole.

Lots of 145 flying moving to ORD and DFW. Pretty sure you could transfer at least to ORD.

PilotPete4You
10-18-2018, 02:32 PM
The devil is in the details, and if youíve looked at our contract than you know that there are A LOT of details.

in2deep
10-18-2018, 02:55 PM
Lots of 145 flying moving to ORD and DFW. Pretty sure you could transfer at least to ORD.

CRJ

Filler

DreadWing
10-18-2018, 03:42 PM
This place is a QOL **** hole.

It helps if you think of this place, not as a "job," but as a..."project."

Oregon Trail
10-18-2018, 04:02 PM
Is flying 80 hrs a month as a Direct Entry Captain bad? Ill be entering as a DEC, coming from 135 with a 12 day on 6 off schedule.

DreadWing
10-18-2018, 04:10 PM
Is flying 80 hrs a month as a Direct Entry Captain bad? Ill be entering as a DEC, coming from 135 with a 12 day on 6 off schedule.

I came here from a *lifetime* in 135; this beats the hell out of every single operator I've worked at/heard of in ALMOST every single way (exceptions: starting pay, no hotel points).

Eighty hours per month with days off the DO can't arbitrarily take away is *******ed magnificent.

Oregon Trail
10-18-2018, 04:42 PM
I came here from a *lifetime* in 135; this beats the hell out of every single operator I've worked at/heard of in ALMOST every single way (exceptions: starting pay, no hotel points).

Eighty hours per month with days off the DO can't arbitrarily take away is *******ed magnificent.

Thanks for reassuring me

I was just denied 2 days off that I asked for 45 days in advance because they were "to close to black out days for thanksgiving"
anyway looking forward to the new job

Houpilot2001
10-18-2018, 04:54 PM
Thanks for reassuring me

I was just denied 2 days off that I asked for 45 days in advance because they were "to close to black out days for thanksgiving"
anyway looking forward to the new job

Black out days? Sounds like my wife in college.

Folove
10-18-2018, 05:03 PM
Are new reserve rules coming out anytime soon? Commuting a day prior to your schedule reserve days is killer. It really makes you have 8-9 days off a month.

3GreenKSNA
10-18-2018, 05:04 PM
This business is all luck and timing.

I drove to work as an FO and now got the upgrade on the envoy wide body and still get to drive to work.

A bit of a tale of two cities.....

-Keep the dirty side down

in2deep
10-18-2018, 05:11 PM
Are new reserve rules coming out anytime soon? Commuting a day prior to your schedule reserve days is killer. It really makes you have 8-9 days off a month.

The company is open to working on reserve, but when/if that happens is anyoneís guess. Rumors have been we will see something this fall but this isnít the first reserve rule rodeo.

Folove
10-18-2018, 05:15 PM
The company is open to working on reserve, but when/if that happens is anyoneís guess. Rumors have been we will see something this fall but this isnít the first reserve rule rodeo.


Heard this before which is why Iím asking. With the holidays coming up we wonít see anything till next year and thatís if something is in the works. The union will probably take off the entire November and December. Itís frustrating. This place wouldnít be so bad if reserve rules be would competitive. (Min days off 12-13, Long call. Etc). Also, people wouldnít complain about upgrading/coming here if the reserve rules were great.

in2deep
10-18-2018, 05:23 PM
Heard this before which is why Iím asking. With the holidays coming up we wonít see anything till next year and thatís if something is in the works. The union will probably take off the entire November and December. Itís frustrating. This place wouldnít be so bad if reserve rules be would competitive. (Min days off 12-13, Long call. Etc). Also, people wouldnít complain about upgrading/coming here if the reserve rules were great.

I just want to see long call and either eliminate or change next day assignments to be posted sooner.

ENH017
10-18-2018, 05:25 PM
CRJ

Filler

I like my job here but I'll agree with the OP, if you get the CRJ in indoc drop the checks on the desk and walk out.

Folove
10-18-2018, 05:27 PM
I just want to see long call and either eliminate or change next day assignments to be posted sooner.


Same, but throw in at LEAST an extra day off. 12 wouldnít hurt anyone. Theyíll save money by not having to pay as many commuter hotels, especially in NY.

If we can have better reserve rules, then the remaining issue would be pay.

bourbon scamp
10-18-2018, 05:58 PM
Even being a cadet won't save you now, they've done all 145 classes recently.


Huh? Been lots of 175 lately. Although I will grant that commuting to the crj is probably about as bad as it gets. Hope you put your bonus towards a crash pad. That said the flip side is living in base on the 175. Totally different airline. And lots of flying.

RomeoBravo
10-18-2018, 09:54 PM
This business is all luck and timing.

I drove to work as an FO and now got the upgrade on the envoy wide body and still get to drive to work.

A bit of a tale of two cities.....

-Keep the dirty side down



^^This^^. So many people are enjoying the ride here.

If you came here between late 2016 and early 2017 itís been a sweet ride.

Driving to work as a FO and will drive to work as a CA.... priceless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
10-18-2018, 10:00 PM
Same, but throw in at LEAST an extra day off. 12 wouldnít hurt anyone. Theyíll save money by not having to pay as many commuter hotels, especially in NY.



If we can have better reserve rules, then the remaining issue would be pay.



A version of long-call will be proposed.
12 days off for RSV will be proposed.
Some form of at-home RSV will be proposed.

Provide your feedback to your P2P colleagues, they will ensure your feedback gets to the LEC/MEC.

Remember, itís the collective feedback of the majority they hear from that will be discussed and decided upon for discussion with management.

Again, talk to your reps, do not stay silent on the matters that impact you the most.


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Folove
10-18-2018, 11:48 PM
A version of long-call will be proposed.
12 days off for RSV will be proposed.
Some form of at-home RSV will be proposed.

Provide your feedback to your P2P colleagues, they will ensure your feedback gets to the LEC/MEC.

Remember, itís the collective feedback of the majority they hear from that will be discussed and decided upon for discussion with management.

Again, talk to your reps, do not stay silent on the matters that impact you the most.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you have their email? How do I get in contact with them. I would seriously love to talk to them about it. I want to be heard and make it better

MD-11Loader
10-18-2018, 11:57 PM
Do you have their email? How do I get in contact with them. I would seriously love to talk to them about it. I want to be heard and make it better

All of your reps contact info is in the ALPA app.

pitchattitude
10-19-2018, 12:22 AM
Huh? Been lots of 175 lately. Although I will grant that commuting to the crj is probably about as bad as it gets. Hope you put your bonus towards a crash pad. That said the flip side is living in base on the 175. Totally different airline. And lots of flying.
There has been a higher percentage of 175s, and some classes of only 175s. But there has been at least one class lately without any. All hit and miss, with no way to control it other than as someone else suggested if you get a CRJ: Leave the check on the table and walk.

Again timing is everything and there is just NO WAY to know if your timing is good or bad until afterwards.

wiz5422
10-19-2018, 05:14 AM
We need min day along with long and short call reserve.

RomeoBravo
10-19-2018, 05:24 AM
Do you have their email? How do I get in contact with them. I would seriously love to talk to them about it. I want to be heard and make it better



PM sent.


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RomeoBravo
10-19-2018, 05:39 AM
[QUOTE=pitchattitude;2694082]There has been a higher percentage of 175s, and some classes of only 175s. But there has been at least one class lately without any. All hit and miss, with no way to control it other than as someone else suggested if you get a CRJ: Leave the check on the table and walk.

QUOTE]

Would that count as a training failure or any negative mark on your record?



Most definitely not a training failure.

Would it show on any PRIA requests that you ďworkedĒ at Envoy, I donít know with certainty.

I wouldnít just walk out, if you intended to leave I would suggest writing a short resignation note as opposed to ďwalking awayĒ w/o notice.


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AV8R72
10-19-2018, 05:49 AM
There has been a higher percentage of 175s, and some classes of only 175s. But there has been at least one class lately without any. All hit and miss, with no way to control it other than as someone else suggested if you get a CRJ: Leave the check on the table and walk.

Again timing is everything and there is just NO WAY to know if your timing is good or bad until afterwards.

Would that leave a negative mark on your record or just burn bridges at Envoy, possibly AA?

Bigpimppilot
10-19-2018, 06:06 AM
If you walk away without 2 weeks notice from any of the wholly owned Iíve heard none of the other wholly owned will hire you and you will be burning a bridge with American. Do yourself a favor and put in 2 weeks notice. You could also write a nice letter saying why your leaving

bigtime209
10-19-2018, 06:59 AM
Would that leave a negative mark on your record or just burn bridges at Envoy, possibly AA?

That will burn your bridge at all AAG carriers. Including AA.

bigtime209
10-19-2018, 10:27 AM
Do you have their email? How do I get in contact with them. I would seriously love to talk to them about it. I want to be heard and make it better

We need min day along with long and short call reserve.

I just want to see long call and either eliminate or change next day assignments to be posted sooner.

Same, but throw in at LEAST an extra day off. 12 wouldnít hurt anyone. Theyíll save money by not having to pay as many commuter hotels, especially in NY.

If we can have better reserve rules, then the remaining issue would be pay.

Sending an email to the following with what you'd like to see in terms of RSV would behoove you more than posting what you'd like to see on an online forum.

[email protected]

[email protected]

Cirrus2turbine
10-19-2018, 11:04 AM
So what is consensus for the best regional?

3GreenKSNA
10-19-2018, 11:10 AM
So what is consensus for the best regional?That's like asking what is the best beer or wine. Soooo many factors

-Keep the dirty side down

Fastest145
10-19-2018, 11:46 AM
So what is consensus for the best regional?

The winner is Endeavor. We even have better rsv rules than Envoy

uavking
10-19-2018, 11:56 AM
The winner is Endeavor. We even have better rsv rules than Envoy

Min of about four years (upgrade then two years as a captain) til one can get in line for the Delta interview? (Which is a ball buster to prep for, so hope you start studying "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" now.) Maybe ya pass, maybe you get a "try again" or a permanent no. Yup, sign me up.

For the record, I came here with the idea that flow is a backup, but knowing enough good dudes who can't get the call over the years, it's a really good backup to have. Now that's been said, show me the money, AAG...

Folove
10-19-2018, 12:04 PM
Sending an email to the following with what you'd like to see in terms of RSV would behoove you more than posting what you'd like to see on an online forum.

[email protected]

[email protected]


Why is why I asked for their emails.

bigtime209
10-19-2018, 12:52 PM
Why is why I asked for their emails.

Which is why I gave it to you.

Pedro4President
10-19-2018, 01:03 PM
Are new reserve rules coming out anytime soon? Commuting a day prior to your schedule reserve days is killer. It really makes you have 8-9 days off a month.

Very true. Even though you can typically proffer out of it you are always left with it hanging over your head until 5/6pm. This makes it uncommutable for some people. This makes for either a really late night and early morning or a really long day. I remember commuting for a RAP 2 getting there at 7 am and the subsequently being assigned an airport standby at three pm. I was at the airport from 5am until 11 pm. It was fun. Now I'm based at home on reserve. My wife asked me last week if I got fired and didn't want to tell her.

Pedro4President
10-19-2018, 01:10 PM
^^This^^. So many people are enjoying the ride here.

If you came here between late 2016 and early 2017 itís been a sweet ride.

Driving to work as a FO and will drive to work as a CA.... priceless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If anyone is coming here expecting fantastic QOL they are kidding themselves. The hiring wave has passed. Now a steady stream of movement is here and if you get sent down the wrong stream your QOL could be severely impacted. People coming here should know this.

NoValueAviator
10-19-2018, 03:52 PM
I think the crap QOL is more upsetting when awesome QOL is available here and you share a crew room with guys who are enjoying it, but you rolled the dice and lost.

That said, in my mind all the problems here are present in one form or one degree or another at most regionals for most people.

Except not flying. That's kind of rare for a new hire FO in 2018. The year I've wasted commuting to reserve and never getting called could mean 10 years of lost seniority if it means I get hired (or flow) after the AA retirement/hiring wave instead of before/during. That's what upsets me most.

BigZ
10-19-2018, 04:24 PM
Except not flying. That's kind of rare for a new hire FO in 2018. The year I've wasted commuting to reserve and never getting called could mean 10 years of lost seniority if it means I get hired (or flow) after the AA retirement/hiring wave instead of before/during. That's what upsets me most.
Amen. It is not even so much about delaying the captain pay an extra year or more in certain seats, even though that hurts too for obvious reasons, but rather limiting the career progression outside of the flow for the guys and girls in those seats.

PilotPete4You
10-19-2018, 06:02 PM
Except not flying. That's kind of rare for a new hire FO in 2018. The year I've wasted commuting to reserve and never getting called could mean 10 years of lost seniority if it means I get hired (or flow) after the AA retirement/hiring wave instead of before/during. That's what upsets me most.

Not an accident. We will have to force their hand in RSV...itís a retention strategy. Nobody leaves within 1-2 years of flowing. Keep folks unhirerable until that point. Duh

havick206
10-19-2018, 06:12 PM
Not an accident. We will have to force their hand in RSV...itís a retention strategy. Nobody leaves within 1-2 years of flowing. Keep folks unhirerable until that point. Duh

Wow, how many layers of tin foil is your hat?

You do realize it costs a lot to have guys sitting around un-productive not flying.

BigZ
10-19-2018, 06:13 PM
Not an accident. We will have to force their hand in RSV...itís a retention strategy. Nobody leaves within 1-2 years of flowing. Keep folks unhirerable until that point. Duh

On one hand, on the other fat reserves arenít good for the company either. Bad marketing for hiring and they still have to pay 75 hrs for <20 hrs flown to quite a few pilots. 55x38.28=2100 per pilot per month = $2.5M per year per 100 underutilized pilots. Set of beautiful M&H uniform for each pilot every year for just a hundred reserves sitting idle :rolleyes:

PilotPete4You
10-19-2018, 06:27 PM
Wow, how many layers of tin foil is your hat?

You do realize it costs a lot to have guys sitting around un-productive not flying.

Youíre right, thatís why management has been pulling its hair out trying to get the union behind a new RSV system!

highfarfast
10-19-2018, 06:39 PM
My wife asked me last week if I got fired and didn't want to tell her.

Hah, my wife asked me that but I wasnít on reserve. It was about 3 weeks into the first month I shared a line with a line check airmen.

NoValueAviator
10-19-2018, 07:13 PM
In my opinion, either AA wants Envoy to keep a bunch of surplus regional FO's around so that competitors can't have them in a pilot shortage play, or the far more likely alternative -- Envoy has a lot of incompetent decisionmakers.

Ever tried to drop reserve days when you're number 40+ on the reserve list and unlikely to get called unless they staff every flight during your shift with reserves? Denied due to staffing. Lol. I'd be happy as a clam if I got a 4 month unpaid LOA to go do international travel, and it would benefit everyone. I get my abysmal but extremely expensive health insurance and to goof off, and Envoy holds onto me without having to pay me. Naturally, this is a flat no. Due to staffing.

dera
10-19-2018, 08:46 PM
I think the crap QOL is more upsetting when awesome QOL is available here and you share a crew room with guys who are enjoying it, but you rolled the dice and lost.

That said, in my mind all the problems here are present in one form or one degree or another at most regionals for most people.

Except not flying. That's kind of rare for a new hire FO in 2018. The year I've wasted commuting to reserve and never getting called could mean 10 years of lost seniority if it means I get hired (or flow) after the AA retirement/hiring wave instead of before/during. That's what upsets me most.

But then again - how long does that crap QOL last? A year or two?

fenix1
10-20-2018, 01:08 AM
Whatís led to this surplus of E145 FOís? (Expected increase in 145 flying from AAG? If so, where/who is that 145 flying coming from or otherwise generated?)

Any chance ENY has fattened up on 145 FOís in preparation to merge PDT (which I under to be very minimally-staffed) with ENY in the not too distant future?

Tellheritwasntu
10-20-2018, 01:47 AM
Whatís led to this surplus of E145 FOís? (Expected increase in 145 flying from AAG? If so, where/who is that 145 flying coming from or otherwise generated?)

Any chance ENY has fattened up on 145 FOís in preparation to merge PDT (which I under to be very minimally-staffed) with ENY in the not too distant future?

Looks like thereís going to be a steady increase in Chicago 145. Slight decrease lga. Dfw and Mia about neutral if I remember correctly.

Yes, in 6 months time we will merge with pdt, right after we open our lax base in 5 months time

E175 Driver
10-21-2018, 08:21 AM
We need min day along with long and short call reserve.

This ain't a major.

ParkingatMIA
10-21-2018, 08:57 AM
This ain't a major.

Why are you opposed to better working conditions?

DreadWing
10-21-2018, 09:42 AM
Why are you opposed to better working conditions?

ABSOLUTE TRUTH I've learned in life: whenever one of us is opposed to better working conditions, it's ALWAYS due to a nefarious purpose.

Without exception.

Jamesthunder
10-21-2018, 10:03 AM
ABSOLUTE TRUTH I've learned in life: whenever one of us is opposed to better working conditions, it's ALWAYS due to a nefarious purpose.

Without exception.

E175 Driver: Nefarious Laugh!

BigZ
10-21-2018, 10:18 AM
Good reserve can be a viable choice for the senior pilots QOL wise, which would help the junior guys to hold a line, build time and move up or move on. Benefits the senior guys who want more time at home, junior guys who want to hold a line, midrange guys to hold better lines, company by allowing jr guys get time needed for upgrade faster.

TeeRainPULup
10-21-2018, 10:37 AM
Guys and Gals on the DFW 145 Iím flying with have been here almost a year and only have 150 hours total 121 time. At this pace they will upgrade by the time they flow to AA. Expect a lot of sitting on reserve RAP and standby but no flying as a FO in DFW.

Oregon Trail
10-21-2018, 10:47 AM
Guys and Gals on the DFW 145 Iím flying with have been here almost a year and only have 150 hours total 121 time. At this pace they will upgrade by the time they flow to AA. Expect a lot of sitting on reserve RAP and standby but no flying as a FO in DFW.

Is there a reason you are in DFW and not ORD or LGA?

Pedro4President
10-21-2018, 11:22 AM
Is there a reason you are in DFW and not ORD or LGA?

ORD and LGA are awesome in the winter time.

TeeRainPULup
10-21-2018, 11:23 AM
Is there a reason you are in DFW and not ORD or LGA?

Iím a CA that drives to work. The people I fly with that commute near DFW or live in DFW, are only having that amount of flight time after being here a year. They originally were based in ORD or LGA and still only have 150 hours.

Oregon Trail
10-21-2018, 11:37 AM
Iím a CA that drives to work. The people I fly with that commute near DFW or live in DFW, are only having that amount of flight time after being here a year. They originally were based in ORD or LGA and still only have 150 hours.

Got it. Misread the original.
Ill be DEC Nov class. Hoping to fly a lot more the 150 in a year

Skip0927
10-21-2018, 12:05 PM
Got it. Misread the original.
Ill be DEC Nov class. Hoping to fly a lot more the 150 in a year

Been here as a DEC for a year. Flown 350 hrs; that was trying to fly as a senior rsv in NYC during the summer rush. The need for DECs is routed in the inefficient schedules that we have, not a substantial amount of block hours. AAG uses us to fill holes in the schedule where a mainline or 175 dont make sense. Because of that, we have 9 hr 4 day trips. As a new DEC, I would expect to fly no more than 200 hrs a year as you will be primarily relegated to airport standby or some crappy overnight.

TeeRainPULup
10-21-2018, 12:06 PM
Got it. Misread the original.
Ill be DEC Nov class. Hoping to fly a lot more the 150 in a year

If you get LGA as a DEC you prob will fly more, but at this point nobody really knows anything that the company is planning EVEN with the email that was just sent out from RW. Everything here is smoke and mirrors.

Pedro4President
10-21-2018, 01:33 PM
Been here as a DEC for a year. Flown 350 hrs; that was trying to fly as a senior rsv in NYC during the summer rush. The need for DECs is routed in the inefficient schedules that we have, not a substantial amount of block hours. AAG uses us to fill holes in the schedule where a mainline or 175 dont make sense. Because of that, we have 9 hr 4 day trips. As a new DEC, I would expect to fly no more than 200 hrs a year as you will be primarily relegated to airport standby or some crappy overnight.

Lol. 9 hour 4day trips. Hahaha. I have seen a 5 hour 5 day trip on reserve but this is reserve. The trips get picked apart during the month for OT flying. That leaves reserve guys with 1-2-2-1 trips or trips with lost days. It's not as bad as he is making it out to be but on the whole I agree with his main point.

Every now and then a good trip opens up due to a sick call.

EmbaeDriver
10-21-2018, 01:40 PM
Guys and Gals on the DFW 145 Iím flying with have been here almost a year and only have 150 hours total 121 time. At this pace they will upgrade by the time they flow to AA. Expect a lot of sitting on reserve RAP and standby but no flying as a FO in DFW.

I know few with less than 200hrs almost a year and a half with Envoy. Not being called in month. Theyíre not mad, getting paid for nothing while going up on the sen list.

Bruno82
10-21-2018, 02:04 PM
Been here as a DEC for a year. Flown 350 hrs; that was trying to fly as a senior rsv in NYC during the summer rush. The need for DECs is routed in the inefficient schedules that we have, not a substantial amount of block hours. AAG uses us to fill holes in the schedule where a mainline or 175 dont make sense. Because of that, we have 9 hr 4 day trips. As a new DEC, I would expect to fly no more than 200 hrs a year as you will be primarily relegated to airport standby or some crappy overnight.


Got on the line as a ORD DEC in mid-Sep. So far this month Iíve flown 31 hours. Today we were down to 0 reserves and so far tomorrow weíre down to 3.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TeeRainPULup
10-21-2018, 06:01 PM
I know few with less than 200hrs almost a year and a half with Envoy. Not being called in month. Theyíre not mad, getting paid for nothing while going up on the sen list.

If they ever what to make more than 42 bucks a hour they better be upset. A lot of FOís have families and even though their wife/husband may work, majority want to stop paying for child care or maybe they have in laws willing to raise their kids if so more power to them sitting on there ass at the house while there wife/husband goes to work but canít leave the kids with him/her because he/she may get called for a trip.

Tyrion
10-21-2018, 09:41 PM
ORD and LGA are awesome in the winter time.

Winter is coming... so I've heard.

SilentLurker
10-22-2018, 05:49 AM
If they ever what to make more than 42 bucks a hour they better be upset. A lot of FOís have families and even though their wife/husband may work, majority want to stop paying for child care or maybe they have in laws willing to raise their kids if so more power to them sitting on there ass at the house while there wife/husband goes to work but canít leave the kids with him/her because he/she may get called for a trip.



Our profession is unique in this aspect. Our work rules are critically important for these reasons,. Crappy QOL drove pilots away from applying regional, or just quit (Comair by Delta + Comair II threat by AA/Eagle).

If the status quo of the past from mainline or regional executives were to resurface, the enormous gains from qualified pilots RE-ENTERING the industry over the past 2-3 yrs will reverse with a mass exodus like never before seen. Not even in a recession will regionals risk rolling back work rules.

With looming mainline retirements, I think regionals can do a lot more to increase QOL work rules, recruiting more on the fence back into this profession. All without terrifying ďshareholdersĒ when they hear about pay raises at AAG WO. These shareholders AAG tries so hard to please are honestly just short term day traders, option traders, high volume trading highly volatile institutions, that call themselves ďinvestors.Ē

Skip0927
10-22-2018, 08:24 AM
Well said Silent Lurker. I am a red blooded capitalist at heart but the short term speculative trading is killing our economy. ďInvestorsĒ focus on quick gains and as such, executives want to juice quarterly profits by focusing on quick things rather than focusing on long sustain growth.

E175 Driver
10-22-2018, 09:20 AM
Why are you opposed to better working conditions?

Not opposed, Regionals are just a step to get into the majors. I really doubt that anyone goals is to retire on X Regional.

Those old farts you see around here are either rejects or they have skeletons in their closet.

Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.

Hawkeye0914
10-22-2018, 09:58 AM
Not opposed, Regionals are just a step to get into the majors. I really doubt that anyone goals is to retire on X Regional.

Those old farts you see around here are either rejects or they have skeletons in their closet.

Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.

Im not one of them, but I do know that it's not that simple. At one point, to flow, they were faced with taking a quite substantial pay cut. For guys with families and kids in college and such, taking a pay cut like that was just not possible. Some of the guys, yes that statement applies, but for a lot, they just got stuck in a bad place.

RomeoBravo
10-22-2018, 10:07 AM
Not opposed, Regionals are just a step to get into the majors. I really doubt that anyone goals is to retire on X Regional.



Those old farts you see around here are either rejects or they have skeletons in their closet.



Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.



I think this is just a very ignorant point of view.

For E175 Driver to unilaterally state *anyone* with a 20+ seniority here should be embarrassed. Itís not black and white like that. For many of those senior folks, it indeed was luck of the draw then likely a hard decision to decide to ride it out here.
Their union leadership at the time provided gross salary calculations to them (based on APA rates at the time), that later turned out to be incorrect (looking at subsequent changes that occurred). Remember people make decisions based on the information they have at that time.
Hindsight........

Yea some indeed should have moved on. But many were just at a juncture that staying was very likely their best course of action.

My ride here for what is almost 24 months has been fantastic with no complaints, this is coming from a CRJ driver that lives in chi town.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cf105
10-22-2018, 10:32 AM
Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.

So much maturity, life experience and knowledge in such a statement. Hope it never bites back.

JetMonkey
10-22-2018, 10:53 AM
Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.

Indeed that is pretty ignorant. Abviously someone who wasn't around during the "lost decade" and hasn't experienced YET any of the bad things that usually happens during an airline pilot's career.

E175 Driver
10-22-2018, 12:09 PM
Im not one of them, but I do know that it's not that simple. At one point, to flow, they were faced with taking a quite substantial pay cut. For guys with families and kids in college and such, taking a pay cut like that was just not possible. Some of the guys, yes that statement applies, but for a lot, they just got stuck in a bad place.

Thats a bunch of BS. They could easily have saved some for that hit, and live within their means only for one yr.

By second yr Im betting they would've made more than they ever did here. But oh well, they will retire happily flying 5 legs a day.

E175 Driver
10-22-2018, 12:11 PM
Indeed that is pretty ignorant. Abviously someone who wasn't around during the "lost decade" and hasn't experienced YET any of the bad things that usually happens during an airline pilot's career.

Not the case these days. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

DreadWing
10-22-2018, 12:53 PM
Not the case these days.

Don't be daft. I remember being under such infantile delusions at age twenty-one on 9/10/2001 whilst flying busted-up piston twins as slave labor.

Only fools, religious nutbags, and children are credulous-enough to believe we're at the end of history.

FullThrust
10-22-2018, 01:02 PM
Got on the line as a ORD DEC in mid-Sep. So far this month Iíve flown 31 hours. Today we were down to 0 reserves and so far tomorrow weíre down to 3.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is a bit misleading though. If the entire reserve list is on airport standby then it will show 0 reserves (as an example). So you can still have a decent number of reserves despite it showing 0 on the reserve list.

FullThrust
10-22-2018, 01:05 PM
Well said Silent Lurker. I am a red blooded capitalist at heart but the short term speculative trading is killing our economy. ďInvestorsĒ focus on quick gains and as such, executives want to juice quarterly profits by focusing on quick things rather than focusing on long sustain growth.

Parker has actually advocated the exact opposite numerous times on various earnings calls over the last few years.

SilentLurker
10-22-2018, 01:32 PM
I think this is just a very ignorant point of view.

For E175 Driver to unilaterally state *anyone* with a 20+ seniority here should be embarrassed. Itís not black and white like that. For many of those senior folks, it indeed was luck of the draw then likely a hard decision to decide to ride it out here.
Their union leadership at the time provided gross salary calculations to them (based on APA rates at the time), that later turned out to be incorrect (looking at subsequent changes that occurred). Remember people make decisions based on the information they have at that time.
Hindsight........

Yea some indeed should have moved on. But many were just at a juncture that staying was very likely their best course of action.

My ride here for what is almost 24 months has been fantastic with no complaints, this is coming from a CRJ driver that lives in chi town.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This^^^^^ ^^^^

His comments are at many times immature & troll worthy. So bad, Iíve wondered if itís pure sarcasm. I like to give him the benefit of the doubt over the years Iíve read his bad posts while smh.

Many of you have heard numerous stories why CAís bypass the flow or get stuck here at AE regional. Maybe he hasnít gotten to know any of them.

I have the upmost respect for many of the ďseniorĒ captains! Iíve learn a great deal from their experiences as Iím sure many of you have (with exception for E175 Driver). The things Iíve learned have saved my butt on the line on the line. You may not like them E175 Driver but they are the backbone of this airline! Period.

Large majority of the reasons they stay have nothing to do with the ignorant post E175 Driver posted above.

A young Immature single person not in a serious relationship, not married, nor with children, not a caretaker of a sick family member, or one who lacks empathy, or knowledge, etc., would make statements like that.

The concept of living a Family 1st lifestyle or sacrificing for the familyís moral welfare is lost to people like that. The concept that some CAís are perfectly fine with making $100K-$120K flying a regional jet, living on a comfortable budget and enjoying a great & comfortable family lifestyle is lost to them.

Money does not make you great, money is not everything. Is a concept lost to them. We donít take money to the grave with us. What good is money if one leaves this life with his/her kids hating them. Kids becoming brats who are financially well off, yet are horrible, unappreciative human beings... Hello????

A lot of reasons, a lot of scenarios that make plenty of sense for an individual to bypass the flow E175 Driver.... Be happy it works out better for you in the long run! Hereís hoping you never have to get into a real life situations like a bad divorces case one day, or a very sick or disabled family member.

DreadWing
10-22-2018, 01:54 PM
Money does not make you great, money is not everything. Is a concept lost to them.

It's MORE about some contrived sense of "prestige" for these scrubs than it is for cash. They'd do it for HALF as much...I PROMISE you.

There are faster (MUCH faster) ways to generate a massive salary in this industry than coming to a regional and awaiting flow to a major.

pitchattitude
10-22-2018, 01:54 PM
This^^^^^ ^^^^

His comments are at many times immature & troll worthy. So bad, Iíve wondered if itís pure sarcasm. I like to give him the benefit of the doubt over the years Iíve read his bad posts while smh.

Many of you have heard numerous stories why CAís bypass the flow or get stuck here at AE regional. Maybe he hasnít gotten to know any of them.

I have the upmost respect for many of the ďseniorĒ captains! Iíve learn a great deal from their experiences as Iím sure many of you have (with exception for E175 Driver). The things Iíve learned have saved my butt on the line on the line. You may not like them E175 Driver but they are the backbone of this airline! Period.

Large majority of the reasons they stay have nothing to do with the ignorant post E175 Driver posted above.

A young Immature single person not in a serious relationship, not married, nor with children, not a caretaker of a sick family member, or one who lacks empathy, or knowledge, etc., would make statements like that.

The concept of living a Family 1st lifestyle or sacrificing for the familyís moral welfare is lost to people like that. The concept that some CAís are perfectly fine with making $100K-$120K flying a regional jet, living on a comfortable budget and enjoying a great & comfortable family lifestyle is lost to them.

Money does not make you great, money is not everything. Is a concept lost to them. We donít take money to the grave with us. What good is money if one leaves this life with his/her kids hating them. Kids becoming brats who are financially well off, yet are horrible, unappreciative human beings... Hello????

A lot of reasons, a lot of scenarios that make plenty of sense for an individual to bypass the flow E175 Driver.... Be happy it works out better for you in the long run! Hereís hoping you never have to get into a real life situations like a bad divorces case one day, or a very sick or disabled family member.
I think we have a winner here!

Paid2fly
10-22-2018, 06:42 PM
Not opposed, Regionals are just a step to get into the majors. I really doubt that anyone goals is to retire on X Regional.

Those old farts you see around here are either rejects or they have skeletons in their closet.

Anyone with a 20 plus yr seniority should be embarrassed.










Anyone that reads your ignorant rants is embarrassed for you...;)

nimslow
10-23-2018, 07:54 AM
Thats a bunch of BS. They could easily have saved some for that hit, and live within their means only for one yr.

By second yr Im betting they would've made more than they ever did here. But oh well, they will retire happily flying 5 legs a day.

And many who did/will flow will retire flying 4 legs a day, or 6+ hour leg double all-nighters, or our new and improved five-day trips, working every weekend and holiday under PBS.

QOL is worth more than $$ to many. There is a reason the #1 777 fo at AA is #385 out of 15,000.

NoValueAviator
10-23-2018, 09:37 AM
6+ hour leg double all-nighters

I'll say this for the regional world, at least you don't have to fly all night.

Pedro4President
10-23-2018, 02:01 PM
Why have we spent so many words on a troll that 90% chance he doesn't actually believe what he post.

Cyio
10-23-2018, 02:07 PM
Why have we spent so many words on a troll that 90% chance he doesn't actually believe what he post.

Iím convinced its a lifer captain here that just likes mess with everyone and get you all worked up.

mfflyer
10-23-2018, 07:33 PM
Why have we spent so many words on a troll that 90% chance he doesn't actually believe what he post.

this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bigtime209
10-23-2018, 08:21 PM
Iím convinced its a lifer captain here that just likes mess with everyone and get you all worked up.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

airworld22
10-25-2018, 08:08 PM
This^^^^^ ^^^^

His comments are at many times immature & troll worthy. So bad, Iíve wondered if itís pure sarcasm. I like to give him the benefit of the doubt over the years Iíve read his bad posts while smh.

Many of you have heard numerous stories why CAís bypass the flow or get stuck here at AE regional. Maybe he hasnít gotten to know any of them.

I have the upmost respect for many of the ďseniorĒ captains! Iíve learn a great deal from their experiences as Iím sure many of you have (with exception for @E175 Driver). The things Iíve learned have saved my butt on the line on the line. You may not like them @E175 Driver but they are the backbone of this airline! Period.

Large majority of the reasons they stay have nothing to do with the ignorant post @E175 Driver posted above.

A young Immature single person not in a serious relationship, not married, nor with children, not a caretaker of a sick family member, or one who lacks empathy, or knowledge, etc., would make statements like that.

The concept of living a Family 1st lifestyle or sacrificing for the familyís moral welfare is lost to people like that. The concept that some CAís are perfectly fine with making $100K-$120K flying a regional jet, living on a comfortable budget and enjoying a great & comfortable family lifestyle is lost to them.

Money does not make you great, money is not everything. Is a concept lost to them. We donít take money to the grave with us. What good is money if one leaves this life with his/her kids hating them. Kids becoming brats who are financially well off, yet are horrible, unappreciative human beings... Hello????

A lot of reasons, a lot of scenarios that make plenty of sense for an individual to bypass the flow @E175 Driver.... Be happy it works out better for you in the long run! Hereís hoping you never have to get into a real life situations like a bad divorces case one day, or a very sick or disabled family member.


Words of wisdom.

E175 Driver
10-26-2018, 10:29 AM
Iím convinced its a lifer captain here that just likes mess with everyone and get you all worked up.

Sure thing! Catch me wearing my white New Balance, asking for separate checks, and tipping $1. to the van driver next time.....

Cheap Lifers here.:rolleyes:

Bigpimppilot
10-26-2018, 11:11 AM
How much do you tip the driver these days?

NoValueAviator
10-26-2018, 02:41 PM
You have to give them at least a crisp $5 if you fly the 175. Lets them know they're dealing with a higher caliber of person.

Cyio
10-27-2018, 03:38 AM
You have to give them at least a crisp $5 if you fly the 175. Lets them know they're dealing with a higher caliber of person.

Oh no, please not this topic again. What did it get to last time, 100 pages? lol. $1 is customary, although don't ever let anyone know on these boards if you ever fail this task else get raked over the coals for it.

BIueSideUp
10-28-2018, 09:28 AM
I'm always fairly content with my job until I accidentally wander into this joint.

DreadWing
10-28-2018, 10:15 AM
I'm always fairly content with my job until I accidentally wander into this joint.

We all need balance against our contentment; obliviousness benefits no one but the terminally-ill...

ENH017
10-28-2018, 11:28 AM
Oh no, please not this topic again. What did it get to last time, 100 pages? lol. $1 is customary, although don't ever let anyone know on these boards if you ever fail this task else get raked over the coals for it.

Follow up question, is it any less respectful to give them 4 quarters instead?

MD-11Loader
10-28-2018, 11:39 AM
Follow up question, is it any less respectful to give them 4 quarters instead?

If itís good enough for the strippers in ALO then itís ok for the van drivers.

BIueSideUp
10-28-2018, 01:12 PM
If itís good enough for the strippers in ALO then itís ok for the van drivers.

Or a handfull of Biscoffs.

cbrpilot
10-28-2018, 03:13 PM
Or a handfull of Biscoffs.

Or a few mini's.

in2deep
10-28-2018, 05:02 PM
Follow up question, is it any less respectful to give them 4 quarters instead?

They can just go back to the desk and exhange it for whole bills. I never minded quarters when I was a delivery driver because iíd do just that.

bigtime209
10-29-2018, 04:13 PM
Oh no, please not this topic again. What did it get to last time, 100 pages? lol. $1 is customary, although don't ever let anyone know on these boards if you ever fail this task else get raked over the coals for it.

Always a hot topic. Yes, $1 is customary (with the hope that your whole crew tips) If it's only me and/or one other crew member tipping, then I'll tip more than a buck to make sure the guy or gal is taken care of. But yes, you're absolutely right. Outside of this forum, if you don't tip then you'll be silently judged on your trips by every crew member that does. Just the way it is.

bourbon scamp
10-29-2018, 06:06 PM
I try to ensure I have singles for the driver. Occasionally I forget or donít check. I donít sweat it and neither should you.

Jumpseatcrawler
10-29-2018, 06:58 PM
Envoy. Republic. Skywest. Expressjet. Endeavor

1st ye CA. 66.34. 84.26. 73.68. 69.02. 85.24

MAX CA. 95.69. 136.26. 116.0. 106.11. 118.88

1st ye FO. 38.66. 45.68. 45.0 40.40. 50.66

MAX FO. 40.58. 58.87. 60.50. 48.35. 62.27

——————————————————————————————————
Not really sure what projected flow times are for current new hires however it is long enough for recruitment to no longer be advertising it online as a Perk. (I think) 7-8yrs.

I respect if you still want to show up to class and be at envoy due to base, if you want to bank on flow (not a great guarantee right now), you like envoy or whatever...

It is just that in my opinion, there are better regionals to start your career at the moment.

We are falling behind.

dera
10-29-2018, 07:04 PM
Envoy. Republic. Skywest. Expressjet. Endeavor

1st ye CA. 66.34. 84.26. 73.68. 69.02. 85.24

MAX CA. 95.69. 136.26. 116.0. 106.11. 118.88

1st ye FO. 38.66. 45.68. 45.0 40.40. 50.66

MAX FO. 40.58. 58.87. 60.50. 48.35. 62.27

——————————————————————————————————
Not really sure what projected flow times are for current new hires however it is long enough for recruitment to no longer be advertising it online as a Perk. (I think) 7-8yrs.

I respect if you still want to show up to class and be at envoy due to base, if you want to bank on flow (not a great guarantee right now), you like envoy or whatever...

It is just that in my opinion, there are better regionals to start your career at the moment.

We are falling behind.

Those Max CA numbers aren't relevant when they are skewed so badly. You're listing 20 year CA rates at Republic. Not very relevant, is it?
By the time you realistically flow (8 years), difference in CA pay is 83/hr vs 93/hr. Peanuts.
And if you add the bonus to the FO rates, the difference isn't that big.

Getting hired a year ahead from your peers would wipe any difference in regional pay. If you're in your 20's with the usual profile, that probably is worth the shot. But that depends on your risk tolerance.

Republic has great work rules, rigs etc. That's where the difference is.

highfarfast
10-29-2018, 07:13 PM
Those Max CA numbers aren't relevant when they are skewed so badly.
By the time you realistically flow (8 years), difference in CA pay is 83/hr vs 93/hr. Peanuts.
And if you add the bonus to the FO rates, the difference isn't that big.

Republic has great work rules, rigs etc. That's where the difference is.

Eh, I get what you mean about the max captain rates not being relevant. But when you look at the junior captain rates... THAT'S a REAL issue. Between the advanced step FOs are paid here and the FO bonuses that are lost with upgrade, you're looking at pay cut when you upgrade here (assuming you're an FO that reads the contract and maximizes pay).

There's a reason this company has to force people to upgrade here.

dera
10-29-2018, 07:25 PM
Eh, I get what you mean about the max captain rates not being relevant. But when you look at the junior captain rates... THAT'S a REAL issue. Between the advanced step FOs are paid here and the FO bonuses that are lost with upgrade, you're looking at pay cut when you upgrade here (assuming you're an FO that reads the contract and maximizes pay).

There's a reason this company has to force people to upgrade here.

I agree, the bottom CA pay is not great.
Then again - it only affects DECs. Every captain that upgrades is 70 or 73/hr.

Jumpseatcrawler
10-29-2018, 07:51 PM
Those Max CA numbers aren't relevant when they are skewed so badly. You're listing 20 year CA rates at Republic. Not very relevant, is it?
By the time you realistically flow (8 years), difference in CA pay is 83/hr vs 93/hr. Peanuts.
And if you add the bonus to the FO rates, the difference isn't that big.

Getting hired a year ahead from your peers would wipe any difference in regional pay. If you're in your 20's with the usual profile, that probably is worth the shot. But that depends on your risk tolerance.

Republic has great work rules, rigs etc. That's where the difference is.

Fair points, no shoe fits all i guess. To my logic a 10dllr difference at 75hrs a month 750 x 12 months = 9000 dollars. To me, that is not peanuts.

Second, not everyone upgrades at a min of 70 or 72, im getting 67.

Not a terrible gig, not complaining, works for me right now. I just wanted to share some info in case there are new hires and wanted to get a current perspective.

in2deep
10-29-2018, 08:04 PM
Those Max CA numbers aren't relevant when they are skewed so badly. You're listing 20 year CA rates at Republic. Not very relevant, is it?
By the time you realistically flow (8 years), difference in CA pay is 83/hr vs 93/hr. Peanuts.
And if you add the bonus to the FO rates, the difference isn't that big.

Getting hired a year ahead from your peers would wipe any difference in regional pay. If you're in your 20's with the usual profile, that probably is worth the shot. But that depends on your risk tolerance.

Republic has great work rules, rigs etc. That's where the difference is.

All the other regionals listed have a bonus as well. $10/hr is an extra $750+ per month. Thats signifigant, especially when considering things like over guarantee and premium trips.

And what happens if you donít flow in 8 years or at all? The difference becomes even more significant. What youíre saying is what the company wants to hear and is the main reason we wonít see any progress with pay. Stop rationalizing the fact we are falling way behind in pay scales.

These numbers are quoted from the union

dera
10-29-2018, 08:05 PM
Fair points, no shoe fits all i guess. To my logic a 10dllr difference at 75hrs a month 750 x 12 months = 9000 dollars. To me, that is not peanuts.

Second, not everyone upgrades at a min of 70 or 72, im getting 67.

Not a terrible gig, not complaining, works for me right now. I just wanted to share some info in case there are new hires and wanted to get a current perspective.

For someone with a "guaranteed" spot at a major (military, and other preferred categories), Envoy likely isn't the best choice.
But for someone who perhaps isn't at the top of the picking order, it still has a good value proposition.

Let me try to open my reasoning a bit more.

This is not my personal situation, but I fall into the similar outlier category.
Let's say you're 45yo with 1500 hours. And let's assume you have a 4 year degree (because if you don't, W/O's are the only game in town if legacies are your end game).
After 5 years at a regional, you're sitting at 5000 hours at 50 years of age.
You start to apply at majors, but unless you have a VERY strong resume from pre-aviation years, you will never get a call. You will probably get through the initial ATS (Taleo, if you're applying to AA) scoring, but since you are so far below your peers (that is: you are being compared against other 50 year old applicants). You have a very big chance on getting stuck at that regional.
Only then you start to consider what the pay rates at 5+ years are at your regional.
Delaying your major indoc date by one year, assuming you are 53 years old or younger, costs you 25 years of pay difference at 8 year pay between Envoy and Republic.

That is why I consider it peanuts, assuming you have to calculate the stuck-at-regional risk value.

dera
10-29-2018, 08:10 PM
All the other regionals listed have a bonus as well. $10/hr is an extra $750+ per month. Thats signifigant, especially when considering things like over guarantee and premium trips.

And what happens if you don’t flow in 8 years or at all? The difference becomes even more significant. What you’re saying is what the company wants to hear and is the main reason we won’t see any progress with pay. Stop rationalizing the fact we are falling way behind in pay scales.

These numbers are quoted from the union

Yes, if you get stuck at a regional, the difference becomes much more relevant. But that's just a personal risk acceptance level you have to assess yourself.

What you’re saying is what the company wants to hear and is the main reason we won’t see any progress with pay.

Have you ever considered the possibility, that they actually know what they are doing? Clearly it is working.

SilentLurker
10-29-2018, 09:32 PM
All the other regionals listed have a bonus as well. $10/hr is an extra $750+ per month. Thats signifigant, especially when considering things like over guarantee and premium trips.



And what happens if you donít flow in 8 years or at all? The difference becomes even more significant. What youíre saying is what the company wants to hear and is the main reason we wonít see any progress with pay. Stop rationalizing the fact we are falling way behind in pay scales.



These numbers are quoted from the union



This I agree with.....

Perspective.

SilentLurker
10-29-2018, 09:34 PM
Have you ever considered the possibility, that they actually know what they {Referring to Mgmt} are doing? Clearly it is working.

Sound like a mgmt tool, but Iíll give you the benefit of the doubt that Itís just your defensive tone because your trying to be ďRight.Ē But your defending our pay lag hard.

You just got hired according to your previous posts, so I see the incentive of trying to get bodies under you as your primary motive.

But you seem fully gun-ho Sergeant Slaughter for the company, like a replacement login of a character we all know.

dera
10-29-2018, 09:55 PM
Sound like a mgmt tool, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that It’s just your defensive tone because your trying to be “Right.” But your defending our pay lag hard.

You just got hired according to your previous posts, so I see the incentive of trying to get bodies under you as your primary motive.

But you seem fully gun-ho Sergeant Slaughter for the company, like a replacement login of a character we all know.

Wow. Nice attitude dude.

Yes, I just got hired. And Envoy was by far the best option for me. I had CJOs from the other "usual suspects", but they can't compete with the flow, in my case. If that's not good for you, then that's just tough.
I'll reserve my right to b*tch about pay, work rules etc for when I'm actually on the line. For now, I can only work based on facts.
And no, they clearly don't need my help hiring people "under me" - it's pretty difficult to get in - I had a few friends who tried and couldn't, even though they were qualified for the job, maybe even more so than I was.

If that makes me a tool, so be it.

SilentLurker
10-29-2018, 10:22 PM
Wow. Nice attitude dude.

Yes, I just got hired.

And Envoy was by far the best option for me.

I had CJOs from the other "usual suspects", but they can't compete with the flow, in my case.

If that makes me a tool, so be it.



Ok, sure thing! Welcome aboard!

Nothing wrong with you coming here, nothing wrong with you thinking this is the best choice for YOU. Itís the management perspective/position YOU support that I was highlighting & the disparaging statements you made against the FACTS posted about us have a large pay lag (not peanuts), compared to our peers.

Flow has no present day monetary value. They want you to believe ďflowĒ has monetary value ďright nowĒ in invisible cash that is yours. Hope you realize there is no value in invisible cash.

Iíd love to Bargain with you for invisible unrealized opportunity pay 7-9yrs years from now.

DreadWing
10-29-2018, 10:36 PM
Have you ever considered the possibility, that they actually know what they are doing? Clearly it is working.

That possibility will be considered the moment we have defensible EVIDENCE that they do/might. Your claim that it is "clearly" working is as dubious as it is non-compelling.

Given the REAMS of precedent we have demonstrating an almost pathological, REACTIONARY style of management, I'm astonished you'd even try and float that possibility around here...

dera
10-29-2018, 10:56 PM
Ok, sure thing! Welcome aboard!

Nothing wrong with you coming here, nothing wrong with you thinking this is the best choice for YOU. Itís the management perspective/position YOU support that I was highlighting & the disparaging statements you made against the FACTS posted about us have a large pay lag (not peanuts), compared to our peers.

Flow has no present day monetary value. They want you to believe ďflowĒ has monetary value ďright nowĒ in invisible cash that is yours. Hope you realize there is no value in invisible cash.

Itís like negotiating with opportunity cost/pay.

I know it is the best choice for me, there is no comparison. Flow vs. no flow = dealbreaker for me, and a base in DFW sweetens the deal. I've tried to say this before - I am not your typical new hire, so my comments are only relevant to my personal situation.

I don't think you understand the valuation of flow. I could work for free for 8 years, and it would be worth it for me. Now, if flow goes away, I'm SOL, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. That's the personal risk acceptance I mentioned.

I don't want to start an argument about how "people like me" are "the problem" etc, but just remember, we all have our own reasons. And clearly the company way seems to be working, given that Envoy is the hardest regional seat to get right now.

There was nothing disparaging about my comments. I will start complaining about pay/benefits/work rules after I'm done with training. Pre-indoc I don't have that right. I'm just trying to show that there is another side to this argument.
Trust me - I'm not a company/management man. I just don't think it would be cool for me to complain about things I've yet to receive.

dera
10-29-2018, 11:00 PM
That possibility will be considered the moment we have defensible EVIDENCE that they do/might. Your claim that it is "clearly" working is as dubious as it is non-compelling.

Given the REAMS of precedent we have demonstrating an almost pathological, REACTIONARY style of management, I'm astonished you'd even try and float that possibility around here...

Clearly it is working, Envoy is the hardest regional seat to get right now. More people wanting to get in vs. seats available.

I've looked at their history, I've been somewhat following the regional industry since the late 90's. I guess we just have to agree to disagree here.

Inclined plane
10-30-2018, 12:06 AM
Wow. Talk about a lack of oneís S.A.


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havick206
10-30-2018, 12:09 AM
I agree, the bottom CA pay is not great.
Then again - it only affects DECs. Every captain that upgrades is 70 or 73/hr.

Every CA that upgrades is 67 an hour

dera
10-30-2018, 12:18 AM
Every CA that upgrades is 67 an hour

Hmm ok, I thought 3 year CA pay is 70/hr? Assuming the CA upgrades at 3 years?

Cyio
10-30-2018, 02:41 AM
I agree, the bottom CA pay is not great.
Then again - it only affects DECs. Every captain that upgrades is 70 or 73/hr.
You are crazy if you think that $10 an hour is peanuts? That is a huge deal for people and surely makes a difference in our household.

Also, most dont upgrade with 70-73 an hour, its less.

This flow you are so gun ho about is great, assuming it works. The situation is a win/win for management. They get to pay us significantly less now because we value this flow so much, but if **** hits the fan and the economy goes defunct, guess what, they also win because are still the lowest paid. We take all the risk in this situation. Pay is a serious issue right now and one that needs to be addressed somehow. Sadly, since our company doesn't want to do the right thing for its pilot group, our only hope is that recruitment slows.

Welcome to the team, I know it can be hostile on here, but you will find that the people you work with are almost always very cool, and very helpful. However, given you are not even out of training yet, I find it a little early to be championing the cause of management and flow.

Cyio
10-30-2018, 02:57 AM
Hmm ok, I thought 3 year CA pay is 70/hr? Assuming the CA upgrades at 3 years?

You would think, but you would be wrong. Hence why people are jumping on you about this. The flow from the outside and first few months looks great. However, once you have been here and see how the industry works from the inside, it begins to lose its shine.

Understand, that if the economy stays strong, I will flow within about 5 years of date of hire. If it stays strong. The problem is for the new people coming here and for those that dont get out prior to the economic slowdown that will eventually happen.

We need better pay rates now to protect us when things go upside down.

highfarfast
10-30-2018, 05:47 AM
I agree, the bottom CA pay is not great.
Then again - it only affects DECs. Every captain that upgrades is 70 or 73/hr.

First, I won't be making 70 - 73 per hour when I'm forced to upgrade. Second, CA pay is not great on any step compared to the others.

In fact, CA pay is bad enough here that if your a senior FO that knows how to work the contract and schedule to your advantage, you're making a little more than that junior CA sitting to your left. All while getting weekends and holidays off!

There's a reason they have to force people to upgrade here.

havick206
10-30-2018, 06:14 AM
Hmm ok, I thought 3 year CA pay is 70/hr? Assuming the CA upgrades at 3 years?

You assume wrong.

Upgrade is street CA or immediately on 1000 hours 121. So that means year 1 if you come with hours or year two if you hustle and uograde around 18 months.

AeroEnvoy
10-30-2018, 10:31 AM
There is no doubt the flow is of great value, enough to bring people in despite the low pay. I would be ok with this concept, get paid less than everyone else but have a guaranteed flow, but here's why I'm not. At any moment the economy could tank, the majors could stop hiring or there could be some other unforeseen event, then what? The flow will stop. Those of us lucky enough not to get furloughed will be stuck at the regionals for a very long time and what type of contract and pay would you like to be under in such a scenario? Better contractual pay is protection for us. I'll be flowing in two years and hopefully nothing happens between now and then but for those of you looking at a 7 year flow, well a lot can happen between now and then. Not even the FO pay rates are contractual. At any moment the company could decide to return to $26 hr pay if it suits them. I'm not saying any of this will happen, I'm just saying what if it does.

Folove
10-30-2018, 10:43 AM
All the other regionals listed have a bonus as well. $10/hr is an extra $750+ per month. Thats signifigant, especially when considering things like over guarantee and premium trips.

And what happens if you donít flow in 8 years or at all? The difference becomes even more significant. What youíre saying is what the company wants to hear and is the main reason we wonít see any progress with pay. Stop rationalizing the fact we are falling way behind in pay scales.

These numbers are quoted from the union

This right here!!!

People so drunk on ďflow kool-aidĒ they find an excuse for everything, even leaving thousands of dollars on the table. Hold yourself to a higher standard. Flow or no flow. We should be and need to be compensated better. Period.

Folove
10-30-2018, 11:42 AM
You are crazy if you think that $10 an hour is peanuts? That is a huge deal for people and surely makes a difference in our household.

Also, most dont upgrade with 70-73 an hour, its less.

This flow you are so gun ho about is great, assuming it works. The situation is a win/win for management. They get to pay us significantly less now because we value this flow so much, but if **** hits the fan and the economy goes defunct, guess what, they also win because are still the lowest paid. We take all the risk in this situation. Pay is a serious issue right now and one that needs to be addressed somehow. Sadly, since our company doesn't want to do the right thing for its pilot group, our only hope is that recruitment slows.

Welcome to the team, I know it can be hostile on here, but you will find that the people you work with are almost always very cool, and very helpful. However, given you are not even out of training yet, I find it a little early to be championing the cause of management and flow.


This!

Filler

use2fly
10-30-2018, 12:24 PM
I know it is the best choice for me, there is no comparison. Flow vs. no flow = dealbreaker for me, and a base in DFW sweetens the deal. I've tried to say this before - I am not your typical new hire, so my comments are only relevant to my personal situation.

I don't think you understand the valuation of flow. I could work for free for 8 years, and it would be worth it for me. Now, if flow goes away, I'm SOL, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. That's the personal risk acceptance I mentioned.

I don't want to start an argument about how "people like me" are "the problem" etc, but just remember, we all have our own reasons. And clearly the company way seems to be working, given that Envoy is the hardest regional seat to get right now.

There was nothing disparaging about my comments. I will start complaining about pay/benefits/work rules after I'm done with training. Pre-indoc I don't have that right. I'm just trying to show that there is another side to this argument.
Trust me - I'm not a company/management man. I just don't think it would be cool for me to complain about things I've yet to receive.

Anyone that would make that statement is definitely a large part of the problem.

dera
10-30-2018, 12:38 PM
Anyone that would make that statement is definitely a large part of the problem.

Did you think every new hire at every regional 5 years ago was "part of the problem"?

UncreativeUser
10-30-2018, 01:06 PM
As a new hire, Iím still in the cupcake phase with the company so I canít say either of how crappy the the work rules are and whatís great/whatís not but I will say this.

Everyone Iíve talked to so far who work for other airlines about my choice with this company have all told me this is a good company, it seems thereís a lot of respect going around, and if the industry respects us then the company needs to return the favor, itís that simple.

Guys recently out of college like myself donít care about pay as much well, simply because we bear not that much responsibility. So to say you could work for free, youíd say that now until you start to realize you canít afford that new car you bought/ planning to buy with that bonus money. We like the movement and attrition, but at the end of the day, the extra 10$/hr matters.


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SilentLurker
10-30-2018, 01:59 PM
Envoy. Republic. Skywest. Expressjet. Endeavor

1st ye CA. 66.34. 84.26. 73.68. 69.02. 85.24

MAX CA. 95.69. 136.26. 116.0. 106.11. 118.88

1st ye FO. 38.66. 45.68. 45.0 40.40. 50.66

MAX FO. 40.58. 58.87. 60.50. 48.35. 62.27

óóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó
Not really sure what projected flow times are for current new hires however it is long enough for recruitment to no longer be advertising it online as a Perk. (I think) 7-8yrs.

I respect if you still want to show up to class and be at envoy due to base, if you want to bank on flow (not a great guarantee right now), you like envoy or whatever...

It is just that in my opinion, there are better regionals to start your career at the moment.

We are falling behind.



Bump!!!! Donít get distracted by self admitted tools. We are still a cheap to operate regional/WO for AAG even with parity pay with other regional carriers like Endeavor.

Skywest Inc is a publicly traded company. 2 of its regional carriers just passed a pay raise with much better work rules than we have and also better performance bonuses

1. XJet
2. Skywest rates take affect Nov 1st.

Facts

Republic- increases within the past 12-18 months

Air Wisconsin- Increases within the past 12-18 months

Endeavor- Increases within the past 12-18 months

Compass- Increases within the past 12-18 months

CommutAir- Increases within the past 12-18 months.

Mesa Airline (Publicly traded company) - Increases within the past 12-18 months.


Envoy- Last pay increase to match the industry standard without silly tricks (FOs start at 3rd year FO rates, CR"AAĒP woo haaa). Many many years (bankruptcy days).





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dera
10-30-2018, 02:03 PM
Guys recently out of college like myself don’t care about pay as much well, simply because we bear not that much responsibility. So to say you could work for free, you’d say that now until you start to realize you can’t afford that new car you bought/ planning to buy with that bonus money. We like the movement and attrition, but at the end of the day, the extra 10$/hr matters.


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Well, just for the record, I obviously would not work for free...

I play the long game - I'm happy to drive an older car for now knowing that the new shiny ones wait if/when I flow.
Again, my case is different, because I would not be competitive for the legacies off the street. I'm too old for that.
For someone in their 20's with all the boxes ticked, the $10/hr matters much more.
For me, the flow is worth way more than $10/hr.

havick206
10-30-2018, 02:41 PM
Iíve been a proponent for pay increase all along rather than flow increases.

with the unions latest email saying the company wonít increase pay as they attach a dollar value to flow, then should the company not then increase flow commensurate with the increase in pay across the industry?

Just another way of looking at things if the company wonít budge on pay rates.

cbrpilot
10-30-2018, 02:56 PM
Iíve been a proponent for pay increase all along rather than flow increases.

with the unions latest email saying the company wonít increase pay as they attach a dollar value to flow, then should the company not then increase flow commensurate with the increase in pay across the industry?

Just another way of looking at things if the company wonít budge on pay rates.

Neither happens until they can no longer put butts in seats. Once recruiting struggles, THEN they'll consider doing something. Problem is, history has a tendency to repeat itself. They were very successful with just tossing money at new FO's to fill seats. And for CA's, **** it, just force more upgrades when they need it. Worked once, it will work again.

Voski
10-31-2018, 02:39 AM
Something Iíve never been able to get a straight answer on ó
when is Envoy eligible for a new contract/pay rates?

Cyio
10-31-2018, 03:06 AM
Something Iíve never been able to get a straight answer on ó
when is Envoy eligible for a new contract/pay rates?

I believe it is 2024 to have a full contract revision. Obviously, if the company wants something from us, the contract is opened and we can negotiate changes to it.

bigtime209
10-31-2018, 03:09 AM
Something Iíve never been able to get a straight answer on ó
when is Envoy eligible for a new contract/pay rates?

Current contract goes through 2024. There is a limited re-opener in 2020 where ALPA and the company each bring a handful of items to the table to negotiate. Those items must be cost neutral to the company.

UncreativeUser
10-31-2018, 04:54 AM
Current contract goes through 2024. There is a limited re-opener in 2020 where ALPA and the company each bring a handful of items to the table to negotiate. Those items must be cost neutral to the company.



So maybe 2020 is when ALPA can maybe negotiate things like min day credit then?


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NoValueAviator
10-31-2018, 05:15 AM
So maybe 2020 is when ALPA can maybe negotiate things like min day credit then?


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Do we even want min day? They'll just axe the 1/3 of lines that are horribly inefficient and keep 60 reserves around for each seat.

Folove
10-31-2018, 05:32 AM
Serious question.

Are we over staffed on reserve pilots? It seems like 90% of the pilot group is on reserve.(not literally, but still).Is this because schedules are so inefficient that they need to keep bodies around to cover the screw ups?

NoValueAviator
10-31-2018, 05:42 AM
The older fleets are grossly overstaffed and the reason is because of poor planning by the back office in terms of what to offer in class. Hundreds of pilots have been sent to the 145 and a few to the CRJ, with no operational need for them, leading to massive reserve lists and 30+ pilots per base sitting around every day flying less than 10 hours a month. For some reason, they are very wary of over-staffing the 175, and do not spread pilots around proportionately to anticipated need/attrition.

Permanent FO seat lock prevents this situation from resolving itself naturally, making the bad planning even more obvious.

Bruno82
10-31-2018, 08:43 AM
Serious question.



Are we over staffed on reserve pilots? It seems like 90% of the pilot group is on reserve.(not literally, but still).Is this because schedules are so inefficient that they need to keep bodies around to cover the screw ups?


I just flew 0 hours in the past 4 day reserve block. But, I think you know that.


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pitchattitude
10-31-2018, 09:22 AM
The older fleets are grossly overstaffed and the reason is because of poor planning by the back office in terms of what to offer in class. Hundreds of pilots have been sent to the 145 and a few to the CRJ, with no operational need for them, leading to massive reserve lists and 30+ pilots per base sitting around every day flying less than 10 hours a month. For some reason, they are very wary of over-staffing the 175, and do not spread pilots around proportionately to anticipated need/attrition.

Permanent FO seat lock prevents this situation from resolving itself naturally, making the bad planning even more obvious.
While I agree that they have planned training poorly, I donít think they are purposely not getting ahead on staffing with the 175. The 175 has had shorter staffing, so those FOs are flying more, so they are the ones upgrading sooner, which means they have to be replaced. I really believe they just donít have the capacity they need to train more 175 pilots. They have plenty of instructors on the 145, not so on the 175. I think that is as much the poor planning problem as anything.

Houpilot2001
10-31-2018, 11:34 AM
While I agree that they have planned training poorly, I donít think they are purposely not getting ahead on staffing with the 175. The 175 has had shorter staffing, so those FOs are flying more, so they are the ones upgrading sooner, which means they have to be replaced. I really believe they just donít have the capacity they need to train more 175 pilots. They have plenty of instructors on the 145, not so on the 175. I think that is as much the poor planning problem as anything.

I believe the DFW 175 FO list currently sits close to 50 FOs...about 25-30 daily.

NoValueAviator
10-31-2018, 12:35 PM
I believe the DFW 175 FO list currently sits close to 50 FOs...about 25-30 daily.

45 FOs available today DFE, mostly flown <20 hours MTD.

18 FOs available today DFL, mostly flown around ~40 hours MTD.

The EMJ is way overstaffed any way you slice it, both in ORD and DFW.

Folove
10-31-2018, 04:04 PM
You guys think the company will offer unpaid time off also like EDV?

havick206
10-31-2018, 04:20 PM
You guys think the company will offer paid time off also?

What?

Filler

chrisreedrules
10-31-2018, 04:23 PM
Neither happens until they can no longer put butts in seats. Once recruiting struggles, THEN they'll consider doing something. Problem is, history has a tendency to repeat itself. They were very successful with just tossing money at new FO's to fill seats. And for CA's, **** it, just force more upgrades when they need it. Worked once, it will work again.

Theyíll do something when classes are no longer being filled. But that something wonít be for anyone who has been in property for 2-3+ years. Like it or not theyíre correct about the flow having some ill-defined intrinsic value. People still show up to it and classes are still going filled.

Part of me wonders if AAG is so reluctant to raise wages for other reasons. Maybe they see some economic hiccups on the horizon...

havick206
10-31-2018, 04:28 PM
Theyíll do something when classes are no longer being filled. But that something wonít be for anyone who has been in property for 2-3+ years. Like it or not theyíre correct about the flow having some ill-defined intrinsic value. People still show up to it and classes are still going filled.

Part of me wonders if AAG is so reluctant to raise wages for other reasons. Maybe they see some economic hiccups on the horizon...

Yet mainline AA got a random pay increase without any negotiating, and regionals got zip. I donít buy the clouds on the horizon argument.

If they donít want to raise pay rates and apply a dollar value to the flow, then increase the flow commensurately.

Iíve always been a pay rates guy rather than flow guy too.

pitchattitude
10-31-2018, 04:36 PM
You guys think the company will offer paid time off also?
Because of the reserve staffing?

They are still denying PVDs and unpaid drops ďdue to staffingĒ!!

Folove
10-31-2018, 04:37 PM
What?

Filler

EDV just annouced they are offering unpaid time off. They are over staffed. It goes from December till possibly February

Folove
10-31-2018, 04:41 PM
Because of the reserve staffing?

They are still denying PVDs and unpaid drops ďdue to staffingĒ!!



Smh damn!
Filler

EnyFlyr
10-31-2018, 04:45 PM
EDV just annouced they are offering unpaid time off. They are over staffed. It goes from December till possibly February

I believe we had zero time lines in NY this past January

Folove
10-31-2018, 04:46 PM
I believe we had zero time lines in NY this past January

Lmao. Wow

I guess they like spending millions on hotels.

NoValueAviator
10-31-2018, 05:05 PM
The auto-deny of rsv day drops is very frustrating. Everybody wins. They werenít gonna fly me anyway, so why waste my time? Gotta bring you in for your regular dose of misery I guess.

havick206
10-31-2018, 05:32 PM
I believe we had zero time lines in NY this past January

Still had any drop request denied due staffing when zero time lines were on offer.

MD-11Loader
10-31-2018, 05:47 PM
Lmao. Wow

I guess they like spending millions on hotels.

You wouldnít come to work with a zero time line and youíre responsible for the companyís portion of your healthcare.

3GreenKSNA
10-31-2018, 06:06 PM
Part of me wonders if AAG is so reluctant to raise wages for other reasons. Maybe they see some economic hiccups on the horizon...

There is only one direction for the economy to go when it's running at break neck speed. Its inevitable, question is just when.

-Keep the dirty side down

pitchattitude
10-31-2018, 06:30 PM
There is only one direction for the economy to go when it's running at break neck speed. Its inevitable, question is just when.

-Keep the dirty side down
Good point. Look at the stock market last few weeks. Can you say ďCORRECTIONĒ?

chrisreedrules
10-31-2018, 08:11 PM
Good point. Look at the stock market last few weeks. Can you say ďCORRECTIONĒ?

October is traditionally a more volatile month than others but some experts are predicting the beginning of a bear market. And Wall Street is certainly spooked about AAGís debt and earnings.

dera
10-31-2018, 08:21 PM
October is traditionally a more volatile month than others but some experts are predicting the beginning of a bear market. And Wall Street is certainly spooked about AAG’s debt and earnings.

They are the same experts who have been predicting it for the past 5 years. Eventually they will be right.

Not to say it's not happening, but "Wall Street Expert" is pretty much an oxymoron.

AA is rolling in cash, and they have borrowed at a very cheap rate. Almost all of their fleet renewal is funded. They are in a very good place right now.

NoValueAviator
11-01-2018, 03:17 AM
Iíll say this for years of no flying reserve, my portfolio is way outperforming all the major indices.

CaptJackSparrow
11-01-2018, 04:10 AM
AA is rolling in cash, and they have borrowed at a very cheap rate. Almost all of their fleet renewal is funded. They are in a very good place right now.

Lol. Wut?

AA has $4 billion in cash on hand and $22 billion in debt. Last time they filed bankruptcy they had $2 billion with far less debt. They also have pension plans that need funded, mechanics and pilots are both up for new contracts, etc. Wall Street sees this is a very unstable place right now...and the economy is doing great!

dera
11-01-2018, 04:15 AM
Lol. Wut?

AA has $4 billion in cash on hand and $22 billion in debt. Last time they filed bankruptcy they had $2 billion with far less debt. They also have pension plans that need funded, mechanics and pilots are both up for new contracts, etc. Wall Street sees this is a very unstable place right now...and the economy is doing great!

Lol right back at ya'.

Time will tell. Their loan rates are really, really low, and their fleet renewal has been funded.
There's nothing wrong with debt as long as it's with reasonable rates. Even JPM said their rates are really low. And they usually don't like AA.
Their buyback timing was pretty horrible, but apart from that, there's nothing that suggests it's unstable.
"very unstable", yea right.

SilentLurker
11-01-2018, 04:30 AM
They are the same experts who have been predicting it for the past 5 years. Eventually they will be right.

Not to say it's not happening, but "Wall Street Expert" is pretty much an oxymoron.

AA is rolling in cash, and they have borrowed at a very cheap rate. Almost all of their fleet renewal is funded. They are in a very good place right now.



I can agree with you on this,.

Warren Buffett said it best, when the market trends lower he sees buying opportunities. This is why you also see mergers during down cycles. Parker is a finance guy, he did see cheap finances and took advantage. Was it needed or will it pay off? We will most likely say yes when we look back 5 years from now and rates to borrow are much higher. A down cycle is not coming any time soon in my opinion.

THE AIRLINES WILL BE JUST FINE. This is not the same industry of the past. Yes growth can slow, but itís still growth in the grand scheme of things.
The down cycle of the past will not be the down cycle of the future due to various factors: technology, demand (take your kids phone away and see what happens), expectations, retirement, corporations cash on hand! These factors will help not only airlines weather the storms, but various corporations for years to come.

We are living in a new age. Take advantage, donít let fear stop you from demanding your fare share of what you are worth (skills, demand, financial & family time sacrifices youíve made and make each week). The money is in the purse believe it!

CaptJackSparrow
11-01-2018, 05:29 AM
there's nothing that suggests it's unstable.
"

Have you seen their stock price? AAL has some major issues on the horizon. And donít be surprised if another strategic bankruptcy occurs.

SilentLurker
11-01-2018, 07:17 AM
Have you seen their stock price? AAL has some major issues on the horizon. And donít be surprised if another strategic bankruptcy occurs.

Letís say oil went $90-$100/barrel, AAG can still maintain a positive balance sheet for over 4-5 years, not to mention reorganization, fleet changes, route changes, layoffs (not including flight crew), further delays of aircraft into 2024. Come 2020 /2021 more cash will be free after large pension fund payoffs.


Many negative factors would need to occurs for AAG to risk a chapter 11 or 7 bankruptcy. Itís nowhere close.

NoValueAviator
11-04-2018, 10:24 AM
Wonder if they'd lay us off first or mainline guys, seeing as jr. guys here are essentially working for free.

Pedro4President
11-04-2018, 11:17 AM
Can we make a new thread for this topic? We can title this "Full time pilot part time financial genius."

pitchattitude
11-04-2018, 11:29 AM
Have you seen their stock price? AAL has some major issues on the horizon. And donít be surprised if another strategic bankruptcy occurs.

Wonder if they'd lay us off first or mainline guys, seeing as jr. guys here are essentially working for free.

Beat the rush, quit now.

dera
11-04-2018, 12:28 PM
Letís say oil went $90-$100/barrel, AAG can still maintain a positive balance sheet for over 4-5 years, not to mention reorganization, fleet changes, route changes, layoffs (not including flight crew), further delays of aircraft into 2024. Come 2020 /2021 more cash will be free after large pension fund payoffs.


Many negative factors would need to occurs for AAG to risk a chapter 11 or 7 bankruptcy. Itís nowhere close.

I love how people predict bankruptcies because of stock price, when the company is financially doing better than ever.

They forget the important bit about AA's debt. The fleet renewal is fully funded, so that money has paid for a lot of airplanes at very attractive rates. And those planes, when they enter the fleet, will give a nice cost advantage even if the oil goes up again.

Amansworld
11-04-2018, 08:16 PM
My advice is donít cash the bonus $$ and see if it is for you. Given the opportunity I would have never chosen Envoy. Abusive company that has no ethical compass in my opinion. They treat their employees terrible.

dera
11-04-2018, 08:26 PM
My advice is donít cash the bonus $$ and see if it is for you. Given the opportunity I would have never chosen Envoy. Abusive company that has no ethical compass in my opinion. They treat their employees terrible.

Wow. Another financial genius here...

Why would you not cash the bonus? Put it in savings and get a few %, or invest it. If it's not for you, then pay it back and keep the gains.
The check in your pocket gains exactly 0%.

Amansworld
11-05-2018, 03:54 AM
Wow. Another financial genius here...

Why would you not cash the bonus? Put it in savings and get a few %, or invest it. If it's not for you, then pay it back and keep the gains.
The check in your pocket gains exactly 0%.


Because once you sign the check and cash it you are responsible for the taxes genius.

dera
11-05-2018, 04:50 AM
Because once you sign the check and cash it you are responsible for the taxes genius.

Lol. You are funny.

So. What's the problem with that? If you don't like it, pay it back.

Let me guess. You think that bonuses are taxed at a higher rate? :)

BigZ
11-05-2018, 04:58 AM
Lol. You are funny.

So. What's the problem with that? If you don't like it, pay it back.

Let me guess. You think that bonuses are taxed at a higher rate? :)

Bonus taxes are withheld at a higher rate. If you leave, you pay back the check, plus the taxes and get issued an amended w2. Some genius figured it'll help with retention, genius, due to pilots not being able/willing to pay back 20k with the 9.5-13k (depending on the state) check they received.

dera
11-05-2018, 05:13 AM
Bonus taxes are withheld at a higher rate. If you leave, you pay back the check, plus the taxes and get issued an amended w2. Some genius figured it'll help with retention, genius, due to pilots not being able/willing to pay back 20k with the 9.5-13k (depending on the state) check they received.

Withheld, but not taxed. You get a nice chunk of it back next time you file your taxes.

The end result is +/- 0, you just have to make up the difference if you leave between tax day and when you cash the check. With a 12 month payment plan, you're not even out of pocket. Makes no sense not to take it.

NoValueAviator
11-05-2018, 05:36 AM
Beat the rush, quit now.

Would you like some fries with that salt?

NeedsMoreCowbel
11-17-2018, 08:21 PM
We have the flow to offset this.
That flow isnt guaranteed bud. Read the actual agreement. Not saying itís not gonna happen but donít be so sure of it or rely on it.

NeedsMoreCowbel
11-17-2018, 08:25 PM
Is flying 80 hrs a month as a Direct Entry Captain bad? Ill be entering as a DEC, coming from 135 with a 12 day on 6 off schedule.
80 hours a month is a good thing. But when youíre in contact with Crew Scheduling for every flight nearly and not making it home on your last day. Coming in the night before etc, not so much. You wonít have a line for years

NeedsMoreCowbel
11-17-2018, 08:27 PM
Are new reserve rules coming out anytime soon? Commuting a day prior to your schedule reserve days is killer. It really makes you have 8-9 days off a month.

I personally talked to some union reps in ORD and they said itís been discussed but basically donít expect it any time soon. ALPA and Envoy are in bed together. Iíve seen it first hand. Wasnít pretty

highfarfast
11-17-2018, 08:46 PM
ALPA and Envoy are in bed together. Iíve seen it first hand. Wasnít pretty

Yep. Me too.

SilentLurker
11-18-2018, 05:37 AM
ALPA and Envoy are in bed together. Iíve seen it first hand. Wasnít pretty


Got to love open ended statements. How are they in bed together? Please share details or examples of what you consider ďin bed together.Ē

Itís easy to point fingers, assume, and get others to follow along with finger pointing and assumptions.

wiz5422
11-18-2018, 06:10 AM
Got to love open ended statements. How are they in bed together? Please share details or examples of what you consider ďin bed together.Ē

Itís easy to point fingers, assume, and get others to follow along with finger pointing and assumptions.

Seriously....just look at the past few years and how the union keeps offering band aids to the company to help them fix their inadequacy and problems. While not fighting to get long term industry leading improvements.
They never hold the company accountable for their daily violations of our contract, with minimal communication to the pilot group.

I can keep going on and on but what is the point.

havick206
11-18-2018, 06:33 AM
Seriously....just look at the past few years and how the union keeps offering band aids to the company to help them fix their inadequacy and problems. While not fighting to get long term industry leading improvements.
They never hold the company accountable for their daily violations of our contract, with minimal communication to the pilot group.

I can keep going on and on but what is the point.

Have you ever filed a grievance?

MySaabStory
11-18-2018, 07:01 AM
Have you ever filed a grievance?

I have in the past. Unless itís a termination grievance, donít expect it to be heard for at least 2-3 years. By then youíll be out and moving on so the grievance will never be heard. Even the termination grievances take over a year and those are expedited.

ALPA is pretty bad, but itís truly the people you vote into position who are driving the ship. I would much rather have a professional union leader (not a pilot) reporting back to and being directed by the MEC. At minimum this professional should be in charge of the negotiating committee. Maybe to expensive ALPA?

Weíre pilots, NOT attorneys or negotiators. Itís a flawed system and management loves to take advantage of it. When you see a cat toying with a half dead mouse...well you get the picture.

havick206
11-18-2018, 07:14 AM
I have in the past. Unless itís a termination grievance, donít expect it to be heard for at least 2-3 years. By then youíll be out and moving on so the grievance will never be heard. Even the termination grievances take over a year and those are expedited.

ALPA is pretty bad, but itís truly the people you vote into position who are driving the ship. I would much rather have a professional union leader (not a pilot) reporting back to and being directed by the MEC. At minimum this professional should be in charge of the negotiating committee. Maybe to expensive ALPA?

Weíre pilots, NOT attorneys or negotiators. Itís a flawed system and management loves to take advantage of it. When you see a cat toying with a half dead mouse...well you get the picture.

Iíve filed a few recently, received backpay within a few months.

SilentLurker
11-18-2018, 07:25 AM
I have in the past. Unless itís a termination grievance, donít expect it to be heard for at least 2-3 years. By then youíll be out and moving on so the grievance will never be heard. Even the termination grievances take over a year and those are expedited.



ALPA is pretty bad, but itís truly the people you vote into position who are driving the ship. I would much rather have a professional union leader (not a pilot) reporting back to and being directed by the MEC. At minimum this professional should be in charge of the negotiating committee. Maybe to expensive ALPA?



Weíre pilots, NOT attorneys or negotiators. Itís a flawed system and management loves to take advantage of it. When you see a cat toying with a half dead mouse...well you get the picture.


ALPA does have attorneys, the MEC does utilize and consult the attorneys. This is not SKYWEST. You should walk down to visit the MEC office in Bedford, TX across the street from the ďhotelĒ/in the brown building next to Jimmy Johns. Go there sometime, see where your dues are going, have conversations with folks there. I did last year and Iím confident weíre in good hands.

My personal opinion and experience.

flydiamond
11-18-2018, 08:39 AM
I have in the past. Unless itís a termination grievance, donít expect it to be heard for at least 2-3 years. By then youíll be out and moving on so the grievance will never be heard. Even the termination grievances take over a year and those are expedited.

ALPA is pretty bad, but itís truly the people you vote into position who are driving the ship. I would much rather have a professional union leader (not a pilot) reporting back to and being directed by the MEC. At minimum this professional should be in charge of the negotiating committee. Maybe to expensive ALPA?

Weíre pilots, NOT attorneys or negotiators. Itís a flawed system and management loves to take advantage of it. When you see a cat toying with a half dead mouse...well you get the picture.

Does Envoy not have the remedy requests process Endeavor has? Most contract violations here at Endeavor seem to be addressed in regular meetings with management and financial remedies are usually agreed upon within a few months and paid within 5 or 6.

havick206
11-18-2018, 08:44 AM
Does Envoy not have the remedy requests process Endeavor has? Most contract violations here at Endeavor seem to be addressed in regular meetings with management and financial remedies are usually agreed upon within a few months and paid within 5 or 6.

Yes there is a bi-weekly meeting where easily agreed upon fixes get made. Then thereís another one and done type arbitration process, then thereís the drawn out lengthy full blown arbitration process when everyone is at stalemate.

The people that complain on here generally donít bother to file a grievance in the first place.

moon
11-18-2018, 10:56 AM
Yes there is a bi-weekly meeting where easily agreed upon fixes get made. Then thereís another one and done type arbitration process, then thereís the drawn out lengthy full blown arbitration process when everyone is at stalemate.

The people that complain on here generally donít bother to file a grievance in the first place.

To be fair a lot of what people complain about is what the company can contractually do. For example sit 6 am standby get called at 145 for a 215 turn that gets back at 459. Is it awful? yes. Is it grievable? No

MySaabStory
11-18-2018, 11:59 AM
Iíve filed a few recently, received backpay within a few months.

Yes. Iíve had that happen too. But if itís an issue the company wants to fight (reserve rule violations, Junior man issues, etc., etc ... then expect 2-3 years for a resolution.

havick206
11-18-2018, 12:05 PM
Yes. Iíve had that happen too. But if itís an issue the company wants to fight (reserve rule violations, Junior man issues, etc., etc ... then expect 2-3 years for a resolution.

Disagree, Iíve seen individual reserve and JM violations pay out within months when itís black and white.

Now if weíre talking overarching interpretation of the contract etc then yes I agree it takes a long time when everyone is at stalemate, that will happen at any company though to some degree.

Folove
11-18-2018, 03:12 PM
ALPA does have attorneys, the MEC does utilize and consult the attorneys. This is not SKYWEST. You should walk down to visit the MEC office in Bedford, TX across the street from the ďhotelĒ/in the brown building next to Jimmy Johns. Go there sometime, see where your dues are going, have conversations with folks there. I did last year and Iím confident weíre in good hands.

My personal opinion and experience.



Sorry man but a large number of the pilot group is suffering while on rsv while another large part of the pilot group is clueless about how bad rsv can be since they are line holders. To say we are in good hands is reaching. If we were in good hands the union would push to improve work rules sooner than later, not wait until the company decides to do talk about them.

With the amount of people we are hiring, rsv will be lengthy at any base soon. This should be a priority since new hires will get their first look at an airline and how their quality of life will be affected during that time. We need to make things better and be industry leading. Before anyone replies about how bad it was for you on rsv and how you sat rsv for years, that shouldnít be the case for todayís pilots. If you think that a new guy nowadays needs to pay his dues and suffer just the way you did, then youíre part of the problem. Be a leader and change things. It sucked for you. Iím sorry but it doesnít have to suck for everyone else.

We have FOs sitting rsv and blocking less than 10 hours a month all while getting a sad 11 days off a month, commuting a day before and after their rsv sequence and spending money on crashpads. When they try and drop days, the answer is no. That is unacceptable. Reserve is reserve, but company makes it worse than what it needs to be.

With that being said the union needs to expedite these ďnew rules.Ē The bottom part of pilot group is suffering and needs improvement. Reserve is not the only part that needs improvement, itís just the beginning. We need to look out for the entire seniority list, not just junior guys/gals.

bigtime209
11-18-2018, 04:03 PM
Sorry man but a large number of the pilot group is suffering while on rsv while another large part of the pilot group is clueless about how bad rsv can be since they are line holders. To say we are in good hands is reaching. If we were in good hands the union would push to improve work rules sooner than later, not wait until the company decides to do talk about them.

With the amount of people we are hiring, rsv will be lengthy at any base soon. This should be a priority since new hires will get their first look at an airline and how their quality of life will be affected during that time. We need to make things better and be industry leading. Before anyone replies about how bad it was for you on rsv and how you sat rsv for years, that shouldnít be the case for todayís pilots. If you think that a new guy nowadays needs to pay his dues and suffer just the way you did, then youíre part of the problem. Be a leader and change things. It sucked for you. Iím sorry but it doesnít have to suck for everyone else.

We have FOs sitting rsv and blocking less than 10 hours a month all while getting a sad 11 days off a month, commuting a day before and after their rsv sequence and spending money on crashpads. When they try and drop days, the answer is no. That is unacceptable. Reserve is reserve, but company makes it worse than what it needs to be.

With that being said the union needs to expedite these ďnew rules.Ē The bottom part of pilot group is suffering and needs improvement. Reserve is not the only part that needs improvement, itís just the beginning. We need to look out for the entire seniority list, not just junior guys/gals.

How exactly do you suggest they do that? It takes two to tango and the company doesn't wanna dance.

Folove
11-18-2018, 04:11 PM
How exactly do you suggest they do that? It takes two to tango and the company doesn't wanna dance.



Well, what communicate has the pilot group gotten in writing that the company doesnít want to talk? As far as I know we havenít officially been told that the company doesnít want to talk. Educate me if wrong.

wiz5422
11-18-2018, 05:36 PM
Have you ever filed a grievance?

Yes I have, numerous times. I filed over a hundred during the LTFO debacle alone. what is your point?

wiz5422
11-18-2018, 05:43 PM
How exactly do you suggest they do that? It takes two to tango and the company doesn't wanna dance.

Stop helping the company out by agreeing to band aids instead of contract improvments.

bigtime209
11-18-2018, 06:01 PM
Well, what communicate has the pilot group gotten in writing that the company doesnít want to talk? As far as I know we havenít officially been told that the company doesnít want to talk. Educate me if wrong.

So you really think that we don't have a new improved RSV system because ALPA hasn't tried? Reach out to your reps and NC members to get an idea of how RSV negotiations have been over the years. It's not that the company won't talk RSV; it's that they are unwilling to make any real changes. And if the company won't budge on RSV, what exactly should ALPA do? ALPA and the company have tried to get something done on RSV on several occasions dating back to 2015ish. But you act like the only reason that we don't have a leading industry RSV system or other industry leading contractual items is because ALPA hasn't asked the company to give us one. As if they should be able to magically snap their fingers and make the company play ball. Now...as far as communication from the ALPA leadership goes, I'll agree with you that this has been severely lacking for awhile now. I'd love to see more LEC meetings, more teleconferences between the MEC and pilot group for Q&A etc...

ENH017
11-18-2018, 06:12 PM
Stop helping the company out by agreeing to band aids instead of contract improvments.

This post reminds me of how we were told the LoAs that we handed the company this year were all about addressing grievances, and that QoL/pay adjustments were going to be handled separately.

Now it just feels like we lost any kind of leverage on the company, in exchange for a temporary increase of 4 flows per month.

wiz5422
11-18-2018, 06:25 PM
This post reminds me of how we were told the LoAs that we handed the company this year were all about addressing grievances, and that QoL/pay adjustments were going to be handled separately.

Now it just feels like we lost any kind of leverage on the company, in exchange for a temporary increase of 4 flows per month.



Amen.......

MD-11Loader
11-18-2018, 06:42 PM
I'd love to see more LEC meetings, more teleconferences between the MEC and pilot group for Q&A etc...


More LEC meetings? I am not sure about other bases but I heard that ORD managed to get a whopping 6 people to attend the last meeting who weren't officers. MIA just had the officers at their last one. Why have more meetings when the pilot group doesn't attend the ones that are currently being held?

Cyio
11-18-2018, 06:53 PM
More LEC meetings? I am not sure about other bases but I heard that ORD managed to get a whopping 6 people to attend the last meeting who weren't officers. MIA just had the officers at their last one. Why have more meetings when the pilot group doesn't attend the ones that are currently being held?
We need to modernize our system. We are no longer in the day and age of showing up in person to meetings. Why not do a teleconference using modern technology to do it? There easy and inexpensive ways to get the groups more engaged.

I can totally understand why a new guy who just worked 5 days with no flying, that flew in a day prior to starting, now being asked to show up to a meeting on his one of two days off before starting all over again, would blow it off. Having a teleconference that he could interact/listen/send digital questions to from home or WiFi connection, that they would do.

mketch11
11-18-2018, 07:02 PM
This post reminds me of how we were told the LoAs that we handed the company this year were all about addressing grievances, and that QoL/pay adjustments were going to be handled separately.

Now it just feels like we lost any kind of leverage on the company, in exchange for a temporary increase of 4 flows per month.

I was ranting about this then. Gave the leverage away and now people want to blame the union for not getting any improvements now that we blew our wad. Too late now. Nothing they can do until 2024 unless the company needs something from the pilot group again. The union is to blame, but to be fair, itís not for lack of trying.

MD-11Loader
11-18-2018, 07:03 PM
We need to modernize our system. We are no longer in the day and age of showing up in person to meetings. Why not do a teleconference using modern technology to do it? There easy and inexpensive ways to get the groups more engaged.

I can totally understand why a new guy who just worked 5 days with no flying, that flew in a day prior to starting, now being asked to show up to a meeting on his one of two days off before starting all over again, would blow it off. Having a teleconference that he could interact/listen/send digital questions to from home or WiFi connection, that they would do.

Thatís a great suggestion for our Coms Chairman. You should send it to him.

Bigpimppilot
11-18-2018, 07:09 PM
When do we get a settlement on the 100$ a month health care fee? Took years to get a ruling. Now we wait on settlement

SilentLurker
11-18-2018, 07:19 PM
Stop helping the company out by agreeing to band aids instead of contract improvments.


Way I see it the legal reality says the company does not have to agree or discuss anything ALPA brings to them until like 2023/2024 for talks. Itís a pilots market and thatís a positive momentum in the unionís pressure ability. Im glad we take gains when we can. Name any leverage you want, but I donít think itís enough to force a company like this to the table unless itís ordered from the TOP at AAG, or sanctioned by AAG. This is a strategic game/dance that has to be played.

Iím happy for the gains we have, is it enough? Hell no! But itís a bit of daylight while-looking for a way to break out of this quicksand of a regional before the first sign of trouble.

Oil prices have recently taken a sharp decline trajectory this quarter and will continue into 2019 1st quarter. This is a very a good sign, I suspect a hearty Christmas announcement or engagement from the company.

Cyio
11-19-2018, 02:24 AM
Way I see it the legal reality says the company does not have to agree or discuss anything ALPA brings to them until like 2023/2024 for talks. Itís a pilots market and thatís a positive momentum in the unionís pressure ability. Im glad we take gains when we can. Name any leverage you want, but I donít think itís enough to force a company like this to the table unless itís ordered from the TOP at AAG, or sanctioned by AAG. This is a strategic game/dance that has to be played.

Iím happy for the gains we have, is it enough? Hell no! But itís a bit of daylight while-looking for a way to break out of this quicksand of a regional before the first sign of trouble.

Oil prices have recently taken a sharp decline trajectory this quarter and will continue into 2019 1st quarter. This is a very a good sign, I suspect a hearty Christmas announcement or engagement from the company.

To your first couple of points, while I am often vocal about wanting more, I understand that the union and pilot group are a huge disadvantage legally due to the Railway Labor Act. If anyone should care to learn more, do some research and see how much the company is favored in things like this, from a legal standpoint.

Its not like we can just strike and make management give us something. There is like 4 years of legal process to get through before that even looks like an option. Managment knows this and wields it like a sword. The union sets up long term strategies and tries to move forward that way.

It sucks, it does, but is the law of the land and for their part, judges who interpret the law that do us the most disservice in regards to labor negotiations.

Bruno82
11-19-2018, 04:55 AM
There used to be phone meetings about once a quarter. You listened in to an update and then could ask questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

inevitableneb
11-19-2018, 05:07 AM
29/month.... Yep, obviously in bed together.
Standing Vacancy LOA with immediate Cpt. Pay upon award.... Those colluding bastards. Positive space travel and unlimited hotels in LGA.... Thanks Obama.

mketch11
11-19-2018, 06:15 AM
29/month.... Yep, obviously in bed together.
Standing Vacancy LOA with immediate Cpt. Pay upon award.... Those colluding bastards. Positive space travel and unlimited hotels in LGA.... Thanks Obama.

29 a month to settle grievance that had nothing to do with captain pay or hotels. What you fail to realize is that the so called gains for the pilots were just as beneficial to the company. They were desperate to attract DECs. The hotels in LGA helped with that, now the new DECs arenít even being assigned to LGA. Win for the company. Being able to tell DECs they can earn captain pay immediately instead of waiting 3 months is a win for the company. It also incentivizes current FOs to take the standing bid. Win for the company. FOs who upgrade now immediately lose the FO bonus, win for the company. Instead of higher pay rates for captains, only new captains get an extra $30 pay raise for 3 months. That saved the company huge amounts of money. Not to mention we just gave away any leverage in this by negating an FO with low time to be able to sit reserve and avoid upgrade to force the company to deal. The company was desperate for captains and we gave it up to settle a flow grievance that was completely unrelated. The so called gains were a sham in that they were just as beneficial to the company but they made so many pilots feel good about it for some reason. Blows my mind. Settle the flow grievance with flow and settle the captain problem with better captain pay. But no, you and many others continue to think the company is working in your best interest. The union rep I spoke to who was on the negotiating committee told me, when I asked about the LOAs, said ďif we give the company what they want now, they will be willing to negotiate IN GOOD FAITH down the road.Ē I almost fell out of my chair.

Scottie
11-19-2018, 06:26 AM
29 a month to settle grievance that had nothing to do with captain pay or hotels. What you fail to realize is that the so called gains for the pilots were just as beneficial to the company. They were desperate to attract DECs. The hotels in LGA helped with that, now the new DECs arenít even being assigned to LGA. Win for the company. Being able to tell DECs they can earn captain pay immediately instead of waiting 3 months is a win for the company. It also incentivizes current FOs to take the standing bid. Win for the company. FOs who upgrade now immediately lose the FO bonus, win for the company. Instead of higher pay rates for captains, only new captains get an extra $30 pay raise for 3 months. That saved the company huge amounts of money. Not to mention we just gave away any leverage in this by negating an FO with low time to be able to sit reserve and avoid upgrade to force the company to deal. The company was desperate for captains and we gave it up to settle a flow grievance that was completely unrelated. The so called gains were a sham in that they were just as beneficial to the company but they made so many pilots feel good about it for some reason. Blows my mind. Settle the flow grievance with flow and settle the captain problem with better captain pay. But no, you and many others continue to think the company is working in your best interest. The union rep I spoke to who was on the negotiating committee told me, when I asked about the LOAs, said ďif we give the company what they want now, they will be willing to negotiate IN GOOD FAITH down the road.Ē I almost fell out of my chair.



Have you tried joining the negotiating committee? If you thought the merits of the last LOA were fruitless, then why donít you join and ďbe the change you want to seeĒ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cyio
11-19-2018, 06:31 AM
29 a month to settle grievance that had nothing to do with captain pay or hotels. What you fail to realize is that the so called gains for the pilots were just as beneficial to the company. They were desperate to attract DECs. The hotels in LGA helped with that, now the new DECs arenít even being assigned to LGA. Win for the company. Being able to tell DECs they can earn captain pay immediately instead of waiting 3 months is a win for the company. It also incentivizes current FOs to take the standing bid. Win for the company. FOs who upgrade now immediately lose the FO bonus, win for the company. Instead of higher pay rates for captains, only new captains get an extra $30 pay raise for 3 months. That saved the company huge amounts of money. Not to mention we just gave away any leverage in this by negating an FO with low time to be able to sit reserve and avoid upgrade to force the company to deal. The company was desperate for captains and we gave it up to settle a flow grievance that was completely unrelated. The so called gains were a sham in that they were just as beneficial to the company but they made so many pilots feel good about it for some reason. Blows my mind. Settle the flow grievance with flow and settle the captain problem with better captain pay. But no, you and many others continue to think the company is working in your best interest. The union rep I spoke to who was on the negotiating committee told me, when I asked about the LOAs, said ďif we give the company what they want now, they will be willing to negotiate IN GOOD FAITH down the road.Ē I almost fell out of my chair.

Well, without the company doing well we won't be doing well either. Its a crappy situation all around. That last line is amazing, as the company won't negotiate in good faith unless it is in their best interest.

Shiner
11-19-2018, 06:37 AM
The union and the company reached a reserve LOA about a year ago. Part of the agreement had improvements for the pilots. While other changes favored the company.

In my opinion, a lot of the pilots that had been bitter about being on reserve for so long decided that anything that wasnít a total improvement for the pilots and a gift from the company should be shot down. The LOA got a really bad reception from a vocal minority of pilots.

The MEC was already doing road shows at this point and a vote was going to be scheduled for the pilot group on the LOA. The vocal minority opposed to the LOA got the MEC to pull the LOA and it was never voted on.

In my opinion the LOA was a win-win for the pilots and the company. The MEC and the company thought so too. A vocal minority derailed the vote.

If you want an improvement to reserve, you need to reach out to your reps and let them know what you think an acceptable reserve agreement looks like. Unfortunately, the company may not still be willing to listen.

The only leverage the pilots really have in this situation is trying to game the current proffering/confirming system and leaving them short of pilots by having all pilots on rap 1 or all pilots on rap 2. I donít think thereís enough unity in the pilot group to make that work. So for now things are stuck.

mketch11
11-19-2018, 06:55 AM
Have you tried joining the negotiating committee? If you thought the merits of the last LOA were fruitless, then why donít you join and ďbe the change you want to seeĒ?

Tired of this go to argument that a person canít make a legitimate argument unless they are on the committee they are criticizing. Like saying you canít criticize the president unless you run for president yourself. Making a counter argument would further the conversation more than simply trying to delegitimize your opponent.

NoValueAviator
11-19-2018, 06:58 AM
In fairness, before the co. stopped sending anyone to LGA to stop the bleed from the hotel LOA, I know many pilots who enjoyed sky high QOL during their first 3 mos of NY reserve. That LOA meant a lot to a lot of people.

The "positive space" was a sham though, and got dismantled 2 months in when they took away the ability to check-in, making it the equivalent of a D1. It may be working again now, who knows.

Scottie
11-19-2018, 07:12 AM
Tired of this go to argument that a person canít make a legitimate argument unless they are on the committee they are criticizing. Like saying you canít criticize the president unless you run for president yourself. Making a counter argument would further the conversation more than simply trying to delegitimize your opponent.



Here is my opinion of the reality the NC is facing. Almost no one is resigning and classes continue to be filled. Envoy operates like someone living off of welfare, the only way for them to increase profits is to cut costs. AAG dictates the flying, itís Envoys job to get it done cheap. So, why should Envoy out of the goodness of their hearts increase QOL and pay when it only hurts them? Iím not saying things shouldnít be better, but the NC is still facing somewhat of an uphill battle until classes go empty or people begin to leave for other carriers.

Your previous comment about how the company only benefited was ridiculous. But itís also called negotiating. We came out ahead in that grievance LOA for sure. And ALPA is largely a volunteer group, if you want to see things bettered, you should be willing to get your hands dirty. Itís fine to complain and youíre free to do so, but donít expect anything to change if youíre not willing to do something about it.


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NoValueAviator
11-19-2018, 07:44 AM
Why is the company so attached to the FO seat lock? Letting FOs bid around would instantly solve the all-consuming bitterness festering in every crew room from guys who have been here a year or more that are effectively junior to new hires in day one of indoc on the 175 in terms of schedule, base, career (HRS) and even pay for those who would be inclined to pick up OT.

moon
11-19-2018, 07:51 AM
Why is the company so attached to the FO seat lock? Letting FOs bid around would instantly solve the all-consuming bitterness festering in every crew room from guys who have been here a year or more that are effectively junior to new hires in day one of indoc on the 175 in terms of schedule, base, career (HRS) and even pay for those who would be inclined to pick up OT.

Training costs and capacity would be my guess.

NoValueAviator
11-19-2018, 07:56 AM
Training costs and capacity would be my guess.

Well, how about the cost of keeping 30-40 FO's sitting around doing nothing @75 hrs/mo for years while handing others premium pay at the beginning of the month to cover trips? I think the reality is that it would ultimately cost them very little.

SilentLurker
11-19-2018, 08:11 AM
Why is the company so attached to the FO seat lock? Letting FOs bid around would instantly solve the all-consuming bitterness festering in every crew room from guys who have been here a year or more that are effectively junior to new hires in day one of indoc on the 175 in terms of schedule, base, career (HRS) and even pay for those who would be inclined to pick up OT.



This!!!! One of the biggest blunder & vex I have with this place.

Itís the policy of the past, not working in this environment.
Iím sure company think itís a leverage they have to negotiate with and get something.

Theyíll continue to hurt themselves in efficiencies, costs, and other operational costs long term.


Hell SKYWEST is a bigger company & pilot group., they donít do that. AAG is a 15,000 pilot Group they handle training costs just fine (1 instructor to 2 pilots during Groundschool & sims).,

It costs nothing these days, but hey whatever floats the companyís boat on perceived leverage.

SilentLurker
11-19-2018, 08:26 AM
Well, how about the cost of keeping 30-40 FO's sitting around doing nothing @75 hrs/mo for years while handing others premium pay at the beginning of the month to cover trips? I think the reality is that it would ultimately cost them very little.



Dilly dilly!

salmiaboy
11-19-2018, 08:39 AM
So I been here a year, have an offer if decide to Leave I would own 10 months of Bonus to envoy, Do you guys know if the company comes after repayment of Bonuses?

AeroEnvoy
11-19-2018, 08:54 AM
So I been here a year, have an offer if decide to Leave I would own 10 months of Bonus to envoy, Do you guys know if the company comes after repayment of Bonuses?

Remember that it's only prorated after the one year mark. If you owe ten months you'll actually owe about 84% of your bonus.

havick206
11-19-2018, 09:05 AM
So I been here a year, have an offer if decide to Leave I would own 10 months of Bonus to envoy, Do you guys know if the company comes after repayment of Bonuses?

Yes they come after you. At the absolute least they will keep your last pay check.

Cyio
11-19-2018, 09:21 AM
Yes they come after you. At the absolute least they will keep your last pay check.

I have heard otherwise at least in terms of ďcoming after youĒ. Itís a risk for sure but I have ďheardĒ people get a letter mailed to them and then nothing ever again.

Your mileage may vary.

havick206
11-19-2018, 09:25 AM
I have heard otherwise at least in terms of ďcoming after youĒ. Itís a risk for sure but I have ďheardĒ people get a letter mailed to them and then nothing ever again.

Your mileage may vary.

agreed, different stories heard from a few people that have left.

Make sure you give adequate notice and donít look back. Hopefully youíre moving on up not sideways.

salmiaboy
11-19-2018, 10:17 AM
agreed, different stories heard from a few people that have left.

Make sure you give adequate notice and donít look back. Hopefully youíre moving on up not sideways.
Thank you gents. Going to Spirit.

rondonq1
11-19-2018, 11:42 AM
Thank you gents. Going to Spirit.

Felicidades in leaving envoy. Good time now to be leaving. I have some sources still at envoy and hearing adjustment to the flow. Company will be asking for relief from agreement for temporary period. Whole problem is captain shortage. Too many FO sitting around but not near enough captain. With schedule AAG want envoy to fly, it present serious problem in captain staffing. my advise to all is follow this poster lead and get out while you can. envoy known for bad working conditions and for ignoring agreements.

Pedro4President
11-19-2018, 01:41 PM
Felicidades in leaving envoy. Good time now to be leaving. I have some sources still at envoy and hearing adjustment to the flow. Company will be asking for relief from agreement for temporary period. Whole problem is captain shortage. Too many FO sitting around but not near enough captain. With schedule AAG want envoy to fly, it present serious problem in captain staffing. my advise to all is follow this poster lead and get out while you can. envoy known for bad working conditions and for ignoring agreements.

LOL!!! Hilarious! How many times have you said this??

FlyGuy2112
11-19-2018, 02:03 PM
Funny how the people telling others to not come to envoy still work for envoy. Itís youíre gonna preach it then follow your own advice and leave.

NoValueAviator
11-19-2018, 02:14 PM
Funny how the people telling others to not come to envoy still work for envoy. Itís youíre gonna preach it then follow your own advice and leave.

Resigning somewhere after spending less than a year, taking their money and investing months is VERY different from not making the commitment in the first place, both in the eyes of everyone with a lick of sense and every major airline's hiring committees. I personally regret coming here, but I do not regret staying. Many such pilots here.

I've yet to hear anyone suggest that you won't have an awesome experience provided you get the 175 in class though.

ENH017
11-19-2018, 04:28 PM
Funny how the people telling others to not come to envoy still work for envoy. Itís youíre gonna preach it then follow your own advice and leave.

It's all about timing, getting here 2-3 years ago meant you got an awesome QoL here, and pretty good flow time. Coming in now is terrible.

Houpilot2001
11-19-2018, 06:32 PM
FOs who upgrade now immediately lose the FO bonus, win for the company.

It's my understanding, you lose the FO bonus; in the terms of, losing your daily gain rate. The current bonus paid out 100% if you made it 50% of the way through the quarter(45 days). People who just got the upgrade on the last vacancy, should have had about 42 of the 45 days needed to hit max bonus. Which means they should be prorated 3 days less pay than max payout.

dragongoliath
11-19-2018, 06:44 PM
It's my understanding, you lose the FO bonus; in the terms of, losing your daily gain rate. The current bonus paid out 100% if you made it 50% of the way through the quarter(45 days). People who just got the upgrade on the last vacancy, should have had about 42 of the 45 days needed to hit max bonus. Which means they should be prorated 3 days less pay than max payout.

The retention bonus stops the moment you finish IOE.

This was sent out months ago via email

"For newly minted Captains that finish IOE within the current FO Retention Window:

If you finish on or after April 20, 2018 Ė you will get the full $2,500 because you served > 50 days as a First Officer in this window (3/1 Ė 5/31)

If you finished before April 20, 2018, you will receive a prorated bonus based on days served. (~$50 per day served)

You must be in active service to be eligible for all or any part of the above bonus."

MD-11Loader
11-19-2018, 06:45 PM
It's my understanding, you lose the FO bonus; in the terms of, losing your daily gain rate. The current bonus paid out 100% if you made it 50% of the way through the quarter(45 days). People who just got the upgrade on the last vacancy, should have had about 42 of the 45 days needed to hit max bonus. Which means they should be prorated 3 days less pay than max payout.


That is correct. F/O's who were awarded the upgrade in July after the LOA was signed and still haven't completed the fed ride are still getting the bonus with the next one slated to come at the end of December.



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