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View Full Version : required rest for augmented crews


CaptainDooley
10-19-2018, 06:33 AM
Can anyone who flies augmented crew flights answer how your company is applying the rest rules.
Since this is all cargo ops, I am talking about the Part-S supplemental rules not 117.

The question is about 121.503
It says, "each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hrs of rest...."

So my Company is saying that since each pilot in a crew of 3 can only be at the controls for a max of 8 hrs ( from 121.507), that means you have not flown more than 8 hrs so you don't need 16 hrs of rest.

For pilots that have done this, is this how your company reads that reg?


aviatorhi
10-19-2018, 07:49 AM
International or Domestic?

Twin Wasp
10-19-2018, 07:50 AM
It doesn't really matter how the company interprets it. What matters is how the FAA interprets it.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2012/slater%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf


Adlerdriver
10-19-2018, 08:12 AM
Can anyone who flies augmented crew flights answer how your company is applying the rest rules.
Since this is all cargo ops, I am talking about the Part-S supplemental rules not 117.

The question is about 121.503
It says, "each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hrs of rest...."

So my Company is saying that since each pilot in a crew of 3 can only be at the controls for a max of 8 hrs ( from 121.507), that means you have not flown more than 8 hrs so you don't need 16 hrs of rest.

For pilots that have done this, is this how your company reads that reg?
No. We’re contractually limited to 17 hours required rest which can be operationally reduced to the FAR limit of 16 under certain circumstances.
IMO, that interpretation by your company is BS. 121.503 is referring to “hours flown” which is the cumulative total regardless of where you are in the aircraft. Contrast that with 121.507 which specifically references “flight deck duty”. What company is doing this cherry picking?

gollum
10-19-2018, 08:33 AM
If you your company has made a 121.513 election then 121.503 would not apply. Consult your GOM to see what section your rest rules are based on.

§121.513 Flight time limitations: Overseas and international operations: airplanes.

“In place of the flight time limitations in §§121.503 through 121.511, a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may elect to comply with the flight time limitations of §§121.515 and 121.521 through 121.525 for operations conducted....”

501D22G
10-19-2018, 10:31 PM
Can anyone who flies augmented crew flights answer how your company is applying the rest rules.
Since this is all cargo ops, I am talking about the Part-S supplemental rules not 117.

The question is about 121.503
It says, "each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hrs of rest...."

So my Company is saying that since each pilot in a crew of 3 can only be at the controls for a max of 8 hrs ( from 121.507), that means you have not flown more than 8 hrs so you don't need 16 hrs of rest.

For pilots that have done this, is this how your company reads that reg?


Whats on the log page?
Over 8? Yes, you need 16 off.

CaptainDooley
10-20-2018, 05:58 PM
It doesn't really matter how the company interprets it. What matters is how the FAA interprets it.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2012/slater%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

you got the answer there, another old wise pilot shared that with me after I posted this.
Our union is now slapping the company.

gollum
10-20-2018, 11:51 PM
you got the answer there, another old wise pilot shared that with me after I posted this.
Our union is now slapping the company.

Good luck, let us know the outcome. I was told that the same issue was also addressed at K4 at some point and that it was determined that 121.503 did not apply since the company’s GOM rest rules were approved by the FAA based on 121.513 which negates 121.503 for international supplemental ops ( which I don’t know if you are or not)

CaptainDooley
10-21-2018, 06:27 AM
Good luck, let us know the outcome. I was told that the same issue was also addressed at K4 at some point and that it was determined that 121.503 did not apply since the company’s GOM rest rules were approved by the FAA based on 121.513 which negates 121.503 for international supplemental ops ( which I don’t know if you are or not)

the outcome is
we use 121.503-511

so, the Slater letter explicitly says, " "the FAA has interpreted the phrase "flown" in 121.503(b) as encompassing the entire time that the pilot is on the airplane and not simply the time that the pilot is on the flight deck"

in the trip pairings in our case, if we used 121.513 , we still could not do the trips. Under that, you can not fly more than 20 hrs in a 48 hr period.

for example let's use the trip in the Slater Letter
LAX-HNL-LAX trip. 5.5 hrs each leg , with say a 2 hr turn in HNL
and say duty on is 1 hr before and :30 after

if you do that trip and they have you scheduled to do it again after 14 hr of rest, under 121.513 you are not legal to do it either. You would be flying 22 hr in less than 48, 121.513 says 20 hr is the max in 48.

gollum
10-21-2018, 10:12 AM
the outcome is
we use 121.503-511

so, the Slater letter explicitly says, " "the FAA has interpreted the phrase "flown" in 121.503(b) as encompassing the entire time that the pilot is on the airplane and not simply the time that the pilot is on the flight deck"

in the trip pairings in our case, if we used 121.513 , we still could not do the trips. Under that, you can not fly more than 20 hrs in a 48 hr period.

for example let's use the trip in the Slater Letter
LAX-HNL-LAX trip. 5.5 hrs each leg , with say a 2 hr turn in HNL
and say duty on is 1 hr before and :30 after

if you do that trip and they have you scheduled to do it again after 14 hr of rest, under 121.513 you are not legal to do it either. You would be flying 22 hr in less than 48, 121.513 says 20 hr is the max in 48.


Enjoy that 16 hours then. I wish we had it sometimes.

Yes you are correct that under that scenario you would exceed the 20 hours in 48 hours under sections 513,521,523,525 but the 20 hours is not a limitation. It only requires that you have additional rest afterwards. So you could do HNL-LAX-HNL, 14 hours rest, HNL-LAX-HNL and be perfectly legal, but would then require 18 hours rest after the second one before you could fly again. Of course then you would only be able to do one more leg because you would then exceed the 24 hours in 72.

It's also interesting to note that they use different language in 503 vs the restrictions under 513,521,523,525 which instead of using "flown" they state "aloft as a crew member". Not sure why the distinction but it's interesting one.

gollum
10-21-2018, 01:34 PM
Of course then you would only be able to do one more leg because you would then exceed the 24 hours in 72.

Small correction to my above post, you could actually do another full round trip but would then again need 18 hours of rest before beginning a new duty period. The 24 hours aloft in 72 hours is also not a limit but it does dictate how much rest you need when you are done with that duty period.

CaptainDooley
10-21-2018, 01:51 PM
Enjoy that 16 hours then. I wish we had it sometimes.

Yes you are correct that under that scenario you would exceed the 20 hours in 48 hours under sections 513,521,523,525 but the 20 hours is not a limitation. It only requires that you have additional rest afterwards. So you could do HNL-LAX-HNL, 14 hours rest, HNL-LAX-HNL and be perfectly legal, but would then require 18 hours rest after the second one before you could fly again. Of course then you would only be able to do one more leg because you would then exceed the 24 hours in 72.

It's also interesting to note that they use different language in 503 vs the restrictions under 513,521,523,525 which instead of using "flown" they state "aloft as a crew member". Not sure why the distinction but it's interesting one.

according to the Slater letter , "flown" means all the time aloft. probably different lawyers wrote them back 50 years ago.