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View Full Version : Southwest Hiring 2019


Proximity
10-21-2018, 06:00 PM
Time for a 2019 hiring thread...

500 new hires planned for 2019. This number usually increases during the year.

30 737MAX aircraft ordered for delivery in 2019. Looks like the purchasing of used NGs is complete, however no NG retirements are planned.

OAK and BWI are the most common bases for new hires, As of today it's possible to get any base within a year. ATL and MCO are most senior. Likely as LAX opens and builds up it will also become a very junior base. New hires are not subject to an ETOPS seatlock if ETOPS bases are their last choice.

New hire pay is $69.34 per trip, $71.42 starting September 2019. Guarantee during training is between 85-89 trips per month. B-fund 15.0% starting January 2019. Profit share is paid if you work a full calendar year, so those hired in 2019 will be eligible for profit share starting 2020, which will be paid spring 2021. Stock purchase plan available. Health care plan with no employee deduction available. SWAPA dues for probationary pilot, 0.25%.

Hiring window opens maybe 5-6 times a year for around 2 weeks each time, you must apply for each window. You also also need to complete an app at http://swa.pilotcredentials.com. Email addresses must match on both Southwest career site and PilotCredentials.

Should be an interesting year with a new base in LAX, many upgrades (400+), and ETOPS flying.


Wingsuit
10-21-2018, 06:34 PM
First yr pay currently is $71.42. $73.56 starting September 2019. All other info sounds right.

PotatoChip
10-22-2018, 04:09 AM
I can feel it; 2019 is my year. :D


Squallrider
10-22-2018, 05:00 AM
I heard projections for hiring is 750 a year indefinitively from a chief who went to the meeting

Riverside
10-22-2018, 05:13 AM
I can feel it; 2019 is my year. :D

Didn't you say that on the FedEx page?

fly14
10-22-2018, 05:28 AM
Packed a ton of good info into those paragraphs. Thank you!

Skyward
10-22-2018, 05:31 AM
Didn't you say that on the FedEx page?

Well, it could be his year for both. SWA and FDX seem to be in sync, lol. 4 classmates plus myself got the FDX interview invite while in newhire training.

We all stayed here....

Good luck PotatoChip!

Proximity
10-22-2018, 06:01 AM
I heard projections for hiring is 750 a year indefinitively from a chief who went to the meeting


All the stars would have to align for this to happen. If we take all our airplanes on order, and have very few aircraft retirements, the need for that many pilots will be there.

Big question will be what will happen in the next downturn. I believe if Southwest's competitors give them an opportunity to expand in airports like DCA, BOS, LGA they will take it regardless of the current economic situation. This company always takes the long-term view of things.

Retirements pick up starting 2025 which will drive the need for hiring in the future.

at6d
10-22-2018, 07:14 AM
The 700 number is what we were told in recurrent in September.

PotatoChip
10-22-2018, 10:19 AM
Didn't you say that on the FedEx page?

I did not, but I would be very happy should they call.

Squallrider
10-22-2018, 12:31 PM
All the stars would have to align for this to happen. If we take all our airplanes on order, and have very few aircraft retirements, the need for that many pilots will be there.

Big question will be what will happen in the next downturn. I believe if Southwest's competitors give them an opportunity to expand in airports like DCA, BOS, LGA they will take it regardless of the current economic situation. This company always takes the long-term view of things.

Retirements pick up starting 2025 which will drive the need for hiring in the future.

Maybe they account a 100 for people that may leave for other places idk but thatís what I was told

Salukidawg
10-22-2018, 01:45 PM
Never ever believe rumors from a Chief Pilot or Checkairmen. Airline Basics 101.

at6d
10-22-2018, 04:39 PM
Iíve got 2100+ guys below me since December of 2015. FWIW, almost all company stated hiring numbers have been met or exceeded as far as I am aware since then.

Iíd say odds are good for 600-700 next year.

full of luv
10-23-2018, 05:45 AM
Big question will be what will happen in the next downturn. I believe if Southwest's competitors give them an opportunity to expand in airports like DCA, BOS, LGA they will take it regardless of the current economic situation. This company always takes the long-term view of things.
.

What?? I read NUTS! I thought SWA was built on the idea of serving the small outlying airports where they don't have to deal with the "big city" congestion. What about more service to BWI, BDL and LGB?

It's sarcasm for those who can't detect such.....

e6bpilot
10-23-2018, 08:33 AM
All the stars would have to align for this to happen. If we take all our airplanes on order, and have very few aircraft retirements, the need for that many pilots will be there.

Big question will be what will happen in the next downturn. I believe if Southwest's competitors give them an opportunity to expand in airports like DCA, BOS, LGA they will take it regardless of the current economic situation. This company always takes the long-term view of things.

Retirements pick up starting 2025 which will drive the need for hiring in the future.



I think the big 3 have learned their lesson when it comes to vacating gate space in premium markets. Besides, other than tweaking, we have pretty much got a domestic behemoth that runs on autopilot. We did just get a few DCA slots from Alaska, which thankfully created a nonstop to my commuter city. Small, incremental changes to the domestic market are going to be the future. The real challenge lies in growing an international product that appeals to both leisure and business travel and is reliable and low cost. Right now it is neither.

The next downturn will be different. Consolidation and capacity discipline are way different now than in the past. If anything, watch the likes of Sprit to grab up used airplanes and spare gates and make a run for it with a growth spurt.

Southwest is in a great position due to their domestic focus and smart spending habits, but somewhere along the line they crossed over from being a scrappy low cost airline to a giant corporation. Something will happen. Fuel will spike, a bubble will burst, people will fly less. It will be a stress test for the way we operate now vs ten years ago.

Opakapaka
10-23-2018, 09:44 AM
End of September recurrent and told 743 total hired for 2018. 500-600 for 2019 and 500 upgrades.

Proximity
10-24-2018, 12:06 PM
I think the big 3 have learned their lesson when it comes to vacating gate space in premium markets. Besides, other than tweaking, we have pretty much got a domestic behemoth that runs on autopilot. We did just get a few DCA slots from Alaska, which thankfully created a nonstop to my commuter city. Small, incremental changes to the domestic market are going to be the future. The real challenge lies in growing an international product that appeals to both leisure and business travel and is reliable and low cost. Right now it is neither.


I agree with what you are saying, our domestic system is so large that any change would be incremental.


Southwest missed the opportunity to be big player in the North East by messing around with airports like BDL and ISP in the mid-2000s, and avoiding the big airports. On the east coast Southwest is a leisure airline. Currently there are no good opportunities to expand into premium hubs but if it were to happen I'm sure the company would prioritize that over international. However, international is the best space the company can expand into right now.


One thing I wish they would get more serious about is gaining international passengers originating outside of the USA. This is a big reason we are not in the Canada-Florida market.

OhSnapAF
10-24-2018, 12:59 PM
End of September recurrent and told 743 total hired for 2018. 500-600 for 2019 and 500 upgrades.

Yup was just told the same.

RiseGuy
10-24-2018, 03:46 PM
One thing I wish they would get more serious about is gaining international passengers originating outside of the USA. This is a big reason we are not in the Canada-Florida market.

I was told going through initial (back in January) that the reason we serve primarily leisure destinations only, save for Mexico City is because as of until we activated our new reservation system, we couldn't (and still cannot) accept foreign currency. Each passenger must book a ticket originating in the US with a US credit card...the new system has that capability but has yet to be turned on, because as we all know, Hawaii is taking precedence for everything right now.

Once that calms down and gets underway, I'm sure we will see more and more destinations pop up that aren't for the sole purpose of taking us fat Americans to all-inclusives. MEX is currently a losing market because the planes are half or even less-than-half full since we can't accept any Mexican credit cards for passengers originating in MEX, but I guess the slots were up for grabs so we took them just to get our foot in the door.

Will be interesting to see where the MAX 7 takes us with it's touted range capabilities...potentially MCO/FLL/HOU - Deep south would be nice.

e6bpilot
10-24-2018, 04:15 PM
I was told going through initial (back in January) that the reason we serve primarily leisure destinations only, save for Mexico City is because as of until we activated our new reservation system, we couldn't (and still cannot) accept foreign currency. Each passenger must book a ticket originating in the US with a US credit card...the new system has that capability but has yet to be turned on, because as we all know, Hawaii is taking precedence for everything right now.



Once that calms down and gets underway, I'm sure we will see more and more destinations pop up that aren't for the sole purpose of taking us fat Americans to all-inclusives. MEX is currently a losing market because the planes are half or even less-than-half full since we can't accept any Mexican credit cards for passengers originating in MEX, but I guess the slots were up for grabs so we took them just to get our foot in the door.



Will be interesting to see where the MAX 7 takes us with it's touted range capabilities...potentially MCO/FLL/HOU - Deep south would be nice.



Just about every flight I have flown to Mexico during peak travel has been packed to the gills. I had a line of MEX overnights last December and it was Mexinsanity every day.
The prior year when I was flying them a lot, we had crappy slots and they were mostly empty. We were also getting killed in SNA and SAT by Volaris, so they cut them out entirely.
Then last Spring I flew one passenger from CUN-FLL at 7am during the first month we had that flight. They were pretty stoked. I think the FAs just opened up the liquor kit and the front galley and told her to get whatever she wants.

ZapBrannigan
10-24-2018, 04:30 PM
Iíd like to see Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax. There are airports north of the border too.

In the US, Knoxville, Asheville, Greensboro, Myrtle Beach, Charlie West, Savannah, Syracuse, Burlington, XNA, Anchorage, Juneau, Palm Springs, Fresno, Daytona Beach or Melbourne..

Still lots of low hanging fruit out there for Baby Boeings


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e6bpilot
10-24-2018, 06:36 PM
Iíd like to see Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax. There are airports north of the border too.

In the US, Knoxville, Asheville, Greensboro, Myrtle Beach, Charlie West, Savannah, Syracuse, Burlington, XNA, Anchorage, Juneau, Palm Springs, Fresno, Daytona Beach or Melbourne..

Still lots of low hanging fruit out there for Baby Boeings


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I am not really sure why the aversion to Canada.

Burlington, VT, Missoula, Anchorage, Juneau would also be great destinations.

Timmay
10-24-2018, 09:44 PM
Throw Rapid City, SD on the list too.

Psycho18th
10-24-2018, 10:31 PM
Iíve often wondered about XNA. Seems that would make some dough. How many repeat/frequent travelers from Canada? Seems all the Canadians in PHX, drive a giant pickup down about OCT, and head back north about April. Maybe in other markets itís more frequent. Seems someone like an Allegiant model would fit those travelers better.

ZapBrannigan
10-25-2018, 03:30 AM
Iíve often wondered about XNA. Seems that would make some dough. How many repeat/frequent travelers from Canada? Seems all the Canadians in PHX, drive a giant pickup down about OCT, and head back north about April. Maybe in other markets itís more frequent. Seems someone like an Allegiant model would fit those travelers better.


XNA is a unique market because it is all high fare, last minute business travel. The problem with that is that it demands high frequency. American has something like 10 flights a day just to DFW in addition to Chicago, LaGuardia, Charlotte, DC...

United and Delta are both in there with a mix of mainline and RJs to their hubs, including SFO for United. So thereís money to be made there, but it demands some scale for Walmart, JB Hunt, Tyson Foods etc to use it.

There is also some art-tourism as a result of Alice Waltonís Crystal Bridges museum of American Art. She really shook things up by buying up one of a kind historic pieces from museums around the globe and shipping them to her museum in the middle of nowhere Arkansas... but it has generated a little bit of Art tourism. Still just a tiny fraction of the business travel demand from that airport though. Walmart alone has a fleet of 17 corporate jets that still only support about 10% of their corporate travel demand.

Leisure travelers will drive to Tulsa to save a few bucks. Itís those businesses that make XNA one of the highest airfare markets in the country.


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Botched
10-25-2018, 07:38 AM
Throw Rapid City, SD on the list too.

hahahaahhahahah, crapid is 100% rj market. forever.

Proximity
10-25-2018, 04:08 PM
Financials came out today. As they relate to hiring, 742 aircraft on property as of today, 751 by the end of the year. Future deliveries, 2019 - 34, 2020 - 35, 2021 - 44, 2022 - 41, 2023 - 57, 2024 - 64, 2025 - 76, 2026 - 19. I included options because SWA has always taken option aircraft.

Current pilot to aircraft ratio is 13:1.

ASMs next year to increase "no more than five percent".

Based on aircraft deliveries and retirements we need about 550 FOs next year.

Big question is if this is the level of manning they are targeting. It would be better IMHO if we got a little leaner on FOs.

Proximity
10-25-2018, 05:12 PM
I am not really sure why the aversion to Canada.


Frontier recently managed to find Canada. Yet for some reason we sit on the sidelines.

Seems like connecting eastern Canadians to Florida and western Canadians to LAX would be simple enough. Market research could consist of looking where Canadian airlines are flying from into our bases.

ZapBrannigan
10-25-2018, 05:16 PM
Financials came out today. As they relate to hiring, 742 aircraft on property as of today, 751 by the end of the year. Future deliveries, 2019 - 34, 2020 - 35, 2021 - 44, 2022 - 41, 2023 - 57, 2024 - 64, 2025 - 76, 2026 - 19. I included options because SWA has always taken option aircraft.

Current pilot to aircraft ratio is 13:1.

ASMs next year to increase "no more than five percent".

Based on aircraft deliveries and retirements we need about 550 FOs next year.

Big question is if this is the level of manning they are targeting. It would be better IMHO if we got a little leaner on FOs.



Wonder how many of those deliveries are replacing -700s that are being retired?


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Proximity
10-25-2018, 07:05 PM
Wonder how many of those deliveries are replacing -700s that are being retired?


Does anyone have any official NG retirement information? I've looked around a few times and never found any. Nothing in any of the investor reports or on swalife.

The best info I can find is our 700 fleet has an average age of 14.6 years and the older airplanes are approaching 20 years old.

Remember, the original plan for the classics was to operate them until 2023! I do realize that eventually they will have to be retired but I think we're good for the next year or so atleast.

I'm just waiting for the day when someone complains when they see an old 700 at the gate. ;)

RJSAviator76
10-25-2018, 07:14 PM
Wonder how many of those deliveries are replacing -700s that are being retired?


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According to this, not until 2022...

https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/01/southwest-ceo-sees-60-fleet-becoming-737-7/

And according to this, 40 -700's to be retired then...

https://leehamnews.com/2018/04/30/southwest-accelerates-737-700-retirements/

But then again, it could be fake news. :p

BarrySeal
10-25-2018, 07:15 PM
Frontier recently managed to find Canada. Yet for some reason we sit on the sidelines.

Seems like connecting eastern Canadians to Florida and western Canadians to LAX would be simple enough. Market research could consist of looking where Canadian airlines are flying from into our bases.


SWA may be "letting Frontier learn" first then SWA will enter, post-somebody else's lessons in blood

Any 2020 hiring crystal ball predictions ? less/same/more/stopped ?

WHACKMASTER
10-25-2018, 08:14 PM
What’s everyone’s opinion on a possible large aircraft order being hidden/secret at the present time? Comparing the orders we have on the books and the hiring they’ve been doing, things just don’t add up to me.

Is it possible to have an order with a manufacturer kept secret until the airline is ready to reveal their strategy? It’s been said that SWA doesn’t believe in revealing its hand.

WHACKMASTER
10-25-2018, 08:20 PM
Also, regarding the C-Series (now A-220).....DLA & JBA got theirs at an absolutely screaming deal. Considering that we have 500 -700s to replace and our deal on them for that many airframes would be even more screaming, and considering the incredible economics and efficiency of that airframe, why would we not approach Bombardier about purchasing 500 of the A220-300s for an absurdly low price?!

full of luv
10-25-2018, 10:21 PM
Also, regarding the C-Series (now A-220).....DLA & JBA got theirs at an absolutely screaming deal. Considering that we have 500 -700s to replace and our deal on them for that many airframes would be even more screaming, and considering the incredible economics and efficiency of that airframe, why would we not approach Bombardier about purchasing 500 of the A220-300s for an absurdly low price?!


Well now you'd have to approach Airbus as they own 51% of the program.


I'm sure Airbus would LOVE to see SWA become a customer.

If that's the direction SWA would go, I'm sure Boeing would love to sell them some Brazilian RJ's instead.

ZapBrannigan
10-25-2018, 11:31 PM
Boy Iíd love to see that A220. Itís a truly passenger and crew friendly airplane. Delta takes delivery of their first one next month. but I donít think we have the vision to look beyond the 737.

As far as a large or widebody? I bet a steak dinner we wonít see one in the next decade.

If Boeing decides to restart the 767 line or the new middle market aircraft is uniquely suited to our operation then a very hesitant maybe, otherwise I just donít see it.


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WHACKMASTER
10-26-2018, 12:50 AM
Yeah, I agree about the A-220. What a fantastic airplane. Iíd love to see a massive order announced to replace our -700s. Itís got stellar economics and supposedly is a joy to fly. Can you imagine the pricing power weíd have ordering hundreds of them?

As for the MoM/797 from Boeing I do think weíll get those....eventually.

Proximity
10-26-2018, 04:35 AM
Whatís everyoneís opinion on a possible large aircraft order being hidden/secret at the present time? Comparing the orders we have on the books and the hiring theyíve been doing, things just donít add up to me.

Is it possible to have an order with a manufacturer kept secret until the airline is ready to reveal their strategy? Itís been said that SWA doesnít believe in revealing its hand.


Manufactures need to announce orders to keep their investors happy. Sometimes orders are confidential, but not on the scale SWA needs to replace the 700s.



You have to wonder what will happen to the 700 fleet, as nine 7MAX aircraft aren't going to replace what our 500 737-700s aircraft do today. I'm going to assume the only reason we are ordering the 7MAX is to serve say Denver-Honolulu. Other then that it seems the company is very interested in up-gauging. If they want the majority of the fleet to be 8MAX size airplanes they could keep taking new 8MAX while operating our newer NG 700s for a long time.



I'm going to go along with WHACK and say that eventually we will order a MoM/797 aircraft. Neither the 787 nor the A330-800neo make sense in our operation. We don't need a BWI-HKG aircraft, we need BWI-Hawaii, or BWI-LAX with 250 pax. However, if you are a thinking of coming here, assume you will always fly the 737. Even if we do start flying another type it will be a small part of the operation.

RJSAviator76
10-26-2018, 06:04 AM
We ain't getting any other type. Imagine what the market reaction would be to Gary introducing another aircraft type after the fiasco yesterday "unit cost ex-items will be up at least 3%." Our stock would go to $5/share, and not because it split 10 times.

Forget about any new type and get comfortable in the MAX.

ZapBrannigan
10-26-2018, 06:12 AM
I was mistaken. Delta takes delivery of their first A220 Guppy Killer today in Montreal.


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WHACKMASTER
10-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Well now you'd have to approach Airbus as they own 51% of the program.


I'm sure Airbus would LOVE to see SWA become a customer.

If that's the direction SWA would go, I'm sure Boeing would love to sell them some Brazilian RJ's instead.

The E2 version of the EMB isnít big enough to be a direct replacement of the -700 but the A220-300 is and itís a superior aircraft compared to the Embraer. JetBlue got them at a steep discount. Imagine the price we could get 500 of them for.

Itís a moot point anyway.....theyíll never step out of their Guppy shell. Oh well, as long as the profit sharing keeps flowing, thereís no PBS on property and I have my noise cancelling headsets.....

PropPiedmont
10-26-2018, 09:32 AM
....and a good chiropractor.

e6bpilot
10-26-2018, 09:59 AM
I agree with Whack. The 797 will be the next type at SWA. Period dot.
Gary will retire right before that happens and Nealon will step in as CEO. Itís already in the works, I guarantee it.
The only reason we got the Max 7 is to keep the line alive in case we want more later. It will either become an orphan like the 500 or we will utilize it for long, thin, high altitude airports like MDW-MEX and points south and buy more. The BOD and shareholders love the 800 sized aircraft. Still able to turn it inside an hour, land it at MDW, and has 175 ways to split the increased operating cost.

ZapBrannigan
10-26-2018, 10:28 AM
I have my noise cancelling headsets.....


So which headsets do you like? [emoji1]


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Learflyer
10-26-2018, 11:58 AM
I’d like to see Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax. There are airports north of the border too.

In the US, Knoxville, Asheville, Greensboro, Myrtle Beach, Charlie West, Savannah, Syracuse, Burlington, XNA, Anchorage, Juneau, Palm Springs, Fresno, Daytona Beach or Melbourne..

Still lots of low hanging fruit out there for Baby Boeings


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I can attest that MLB (Melbourne, FL) would be a success for SWA. Largely populated area (including Vero, Sebastian, Fort Pierce). Lots of transplanted NY'ers that travel to MCO to use SWA and others would love a chance not to have to drive the hour or so to MCO.

ZapBrannigan
10-26-2018, 12:08 PM
I can attest that MLB (Melbourne, FL) would be a success for SWA. Largely populated area (including Vero, Sebastian, Fort Pierce). Lots of transplanted NY'ers that travel to MCO to use SWA and others would love a chance not to have to drive the hour or so to MCO.


In the mid-90s MLB had mainline service from USAir, Delta, and AA plus a variety of commuter feeders. No reason it canít work.


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pugpilot
10-26-2018, 01:24 PM
at the leadership breakfast recently, they were talking about how the A220 is something that will be looked at very closely going forward. It definitely makes sense and would the -700s.

Specifically it was discussed that the MAX's are not as efficient for short haul flights and they might have to look at something else.

ZapBrannigan
10-31-2018, 11:51 PM
From Motley Fool..

ďHowever, Southwest Airlines will probably retire the first of its more than 500 Boeing 737-700s within the next year or two. Half of that fleet or more is likely to come up for replacement over the next decade. Like the majority of the 737 Classics, the 737-700s are configured with 143 seats. Nearly all of these planes will be replaced over time with 175-seat 737 MAX 8s.Ē

Puts a damper on those delivery numbers.


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WHACKMASTER
11-01-2018, 04:59 AM
From Motley Fool..

ďHowever, Southwest Airlines will probably retire the first of its more than 500 Boeing 737-700s within the next year or two. Half of that fleet or more is likely to come up for replacement over the next decade. Like the majority of the 737 Classics, the 737-700s are configured with 143 seats. Nearly all of these planes will be replaced over time with 175-seat 737 MAX 8s.Ē

Puts a damper on those delivery numbers.


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As in those deliveries will only be to replace -700s? Perhaps, but you know damn well the company has the flexibility to accelerate retirements or deliveries. I donít think they lay absolutely everything out on the table. When youíre the size of SWA (or DAL, UAL, AA) youíve got some pull with the manufacturers.

Proximity
11-02-2018, 05:44 AM
Puts a damper on those delivery numbers.

I finally got a chance to sit down and read the whole transcript from the 3rd Quarter earnings call.

First interesting thing, the company signed leases for an additional 4 8MAX aircraft for 2019, upping deliveries to 34 instead of 30.

Here's a part in the call where aircraft retirements are being discussed...

As we've previously shared, we're planning to designate some of our 737-700 aircraft for retirement next year to support our continued investment in fleet modernization. These additional aircraft acquisitions or any future opportunities to pick up a few additional new aircraft for fleet replacement do not change our previously communicated 2019 capacity plan.

It's part of a long answer addressing analysts's concerns about costs and capacity. If anyone has noticed, our stock is down and the blame is being placed on our rising non-fuel costs.

So I'll stick to my prediction that no NGs will be retired in 2019. Note it isn't said that some 700s will be retired next year, the word designate is used. Meaning next year they could say we designate these older 700s to be retired in 202x.

As we should do as pilots, watch what they do, not what they say. The program to purchase used NGs only just wrapped up. Deliveries for next year have been increased at-least twice now. This is not a company acting like they have surplus airplanes.

e6bpilot
11-02-2018, 08:17 AM
I finally got a chance to sit down and read the whole transcript from the 3rd Quarter earnings call.



First interesting thing, the company signed leases for an additional 4 8MAX aircraft for 2019, upping deliveries to 34 instead of 30.



Here's a part in the call where aircraft retirements are being discussed...







It's part of a long answer addressing analysts's concerns about costs and capacity. If anyone has noticed, our stock is down and the blame is being placed on our rising non-fuel costs.



So I'll stick to my prediction that no NGs will be retired in 2019. Note it isn't said that some 700s will be retired next year, the word designate is used. Meaning next year they could say we designate these older 700s to be retired in 202x.



As we should do as pilots, watch what they do, not what they say. The program to purchase used NGs only just wrapped up. Deliveries for next year have been increased at-least twice now. This is not a company acting like they have surplus airplanes.



Once again, spot on analysis.
Gary Kelly and team are masters at talking out of both sides of their mouths. Itís just part of the job.

They HAVE to tell the investors that we are not amping up capacity just like they have to tell employees that taxiing out on one engine uphill in Denver is saving their profit sharing.

Investors are worried about the next quarter. Gary, despite his many faults, is genuinely planning for the next decade.

dera
11-04-2018, 01:24 AM
I'm going to assume the only reason we are ordering the 7MAX is to serve say Denver-Honolulu.

That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.

RJSAviator76
11-04-2018, 02:30 AM
That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.



Majority of people vote with their wallets, plain and simple.

WHACKMASTER
11-04-2018, 04:05 AM
That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.

Itís already been talked about by the company. The Max7 will be doing DEN-HNL.

Smooth at FL450
11-04-2018, 06:05 AM
That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.


If somebody has a ton of Rapid Rewards points and Companion Pass, do you think they'd rather spend $2-3000 to fly on United because of the aircraft type??? I highly doubt that. And there is just as much revenue generated when a ticket is booked via points, it's called deferred income because those points were earned on a previous purchase.

at6d
11-04-2018, 08:19 AM
That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.

Iíve done BWI to SMF in the winter and it took over 6 hours. Our Costa Rica flights are long, too.

ZapBrannigan
11-04-2018, 08:42 AM
He isnít wrong. Anything over about 3 hours in a 737 is pretty miserable (up front OR in back). But that said, there will always be someone to buy it for the right price. Myself included.


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WHACKMASTER
11-04-2018, 12:09 PM
He isnít wrong. Anything over about 3 hours in a 737 is pretty miserable (up front OR in back). But that said, there will always be someone to buy it for the right price. Myself included.


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Buy it?! What?! When you can fly standby? Sacrilege! Whatís next? Paying for a newspaper or soap when you can just get both for free at the hotel?

full of luv
11-04-2018, 12:25 PM
He isn’t wrong. Anything over about 3 hours in a 737 is pretty miserable (up front OR in back). But that said, there will always be someone to buy it for the right price. Myself included.


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The only thing more miserable than a 7.5 hr 737 flight in the back or in the pilot's seat would be a 7.5 hr 737 flight on the JS!

dera
11-04-2018, 12:33 PM
If somebody has a ton of Rapid Rewards points and Companion Pass, do you think they'd rather spend $2-3000 to fly on United because of the aircraft type??? I highly doubt that. And there is just as much revenue generated when a ticket is booked via points, it's called deferred income because those points were earned on a previous purchase.

Then again, would that really be a target audience you want to open a new very expensive route for?

at6d
11-04-2018, 12:40 PM
Donít forget we will be doing inter-Island as well....

ZapBrannigan
11-04-2018, 01:01 PM
Donít forget we will be doing inter-Island as well....



If there was money to be made interisland, Alaska would be doing it already. Itíll be an interesting experiment to watch.


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e6bpilot
11-04-2018, 01:38 PM
If there was money to be made interisland, Alaska would be doing it already. Itíll be an interesting experiment to watch.


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Watterson is no dummy and he knows the market very very well. I agree it will be interesting, but I have no doubt there is money to be made there.
Undercut Hawaiian for long enough and build brand loyalty and I bet it will soon get to a steady state operation of some sort. There is one reason we poached Watterson from Hawaiian and this is it. I think he is being groomed to take over VDVs job, eventually...I hope.

Smooth at FL450
11-04-2018, 01:44 PM
Then again, would that really be a target audience you want to open a new very expensive route for?


yes, and they are very up front about that. They've said they don't care if the seats are filled with paying passengers or Rapid Reward redemptions...it's all revenue to them.

From the recent Q3 earnings call transcript:

Helane Becker - Cowen & Co. LLC

Thanks, guys. It looks like the pressure is really on. So I just have a question actually as you think about Hawaii service for next year. When we're looking at the bookings for that, when you start to look at bookings for that, what are you thinking about in terms of redeemed Rapid Rewards versus people actually paying for those flights? Because I would imagine a lot of your customers are chomping at the bit to start booking and are saving up Rapid Rewards for exactly that.

Gary C. Kelly - Southwest Airlines Co.

I don't know, I'll let Tom guess on this too. And maybe Tom and Andrew have some sense of what other airlines see. We have a different frequent flyer program. Every seat every day is available for redemption, and it's de facto revenue managed. It takes more points to make a booking the week of travel than it does to get an advance purchase ticket. So there are natural revenue management controls over that.

But I think they would also tell you that we're really indifferent where those awards get used. The accounting has changed, so that the revenue recognition doesn't penalize that. So in other words, you won't see it. And our assumption is our customers earned these points and they're going to fly them somewhere. If they want to fly to Hawaii or they want to fly to Amarillo, it's all good by me.

But I can't imagine a scenario like the old days, people were worried about we're going to fill this whole airplane up with zero paying frequent flyers. I can't imagine that scenario. But if it happens that way, you still won't see a problem.

Thomas M. Nealon - Southwest Airlines Co.

Helene, my guess is you'll see a lot of Rapid Reward redemptions early on, a lot. We've been acquiring customers and credit card holders for the past year very, very intentionally. And they just, as you said, are building their points up. And as Gary said, we don't care. We would love to have that plane full of passengers. Whether it's a cash passenger or a Rapid Reward passenger, I'm indifferent. They are good customers and we're getting our financial piece out of that sale. That's how I think about it.

Gary C. Kelly - Southwest Airlines Co.

I'll make one other quick business argument to you, which will hopefully give you – if you're not convinced yet, more comfort, which is remember, the awards are earned in two basic methods. One is you can fly and get a point, but you can also spend money with a credit card and get a point, and for those we get paid.

So the way we look at it, whenever we have a redemption, it's not zero dollars coming in. It's realizing the deferred revenue or the air traffic liability that was already received by Chase in payment of those points. So maybe some customers literally have – they're taking a "free ticket," but most of them have a blend of credit card and flights. And so that makes it even easier to get comfortable that it's a good business decision for the company to manage the frequent flyer program this way.

CA1900
11-04-2018, 05:17 PM
The only thing more miserable than a 7.5 hr 737 flight in the back or in the pilot's seat would be a 7.5 hr 737 flight on the JS!

"Hey guys, hope you don't mind, they said I'll need to ride on the second jump..." :eek:

Ihateusernames
11-04-2018, 05:27 PM
"Hey guys, hope you don't mind, they said I'll need to ride on the second jump..." :eek:



Yeah. Anything over 1.5 hour block..nobody is riding on my second jumpseat. Iím 6,5Ē. It ainít happening sorry.


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Ihateusernames
11-04-2018, 05:29 PM
Watterson is no dummy and he knows the market very very well. I agree it will be interesting, but I have no doubt there is money to be made there.
Undercut Hawaiian for long enough and build brand loyalty and I bet it will soon get to a steady state operation of some sort. There is one reason we poached Watterson from Hawaiian and this is it. I think he is being groomed to take over VDVs job, eventually...I hope.



Waterson has been know to say he wants big planes here but higher ups donít want them. He has been reported to say he will be around longer than them. So I believe we will get them one day.


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ZapBrannigan
11-05-2018, 12:02 AM
The way those guys change teams I wouldnít be shocked if he left, went to work for Moxie, and used his insider knowledge to wipe us off the map.


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ZapBrannigan
11-05-2018, 12:04 AM
"Hey guys, hope you don't mind, they said I'll need to ride on the second jump..." :eek:


Second jumpseater shows up with ID lanyard hanging over his Hawaiian shirt...

ďHey guys, I bought tickets for the wife and kids, but just figured Iíd ride up here with you guys to save a few bucks. You donít mind do ya?Ē


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Tenacvols
11-05-2018, 03:36 AM
Second jumpseater shows up with ID lanyard hanging over his Hawaiian shirt...

ďHey guys, I bought tickets for the wife and kids, but just figured Iíd ride up here with you guys to save a few bucks. You donít mind do ya?Ē


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I donít mind. Seven years from now that might be a different story though...

e6bpilot
11-05-2018, 05:23 AM
The second jumpseat sucks, but I guarantee you it will be full a lot going to Hawaii. Some taller guys like to put their seats all the way back during cruise and even during takeoff and landing even though there is a giant placard telling you not to. Most first jumpseaters will move their legs to make room for that situation as we all want to just get to where we are going, but some captains will still deny the second jumpseat, even on a short leg. I find it personally and professionally embarrassing, but alas, itís his seat to give, not mine.
Sure, 7 hours up there would suck, but you could also stand up, exit the cockpit, and chat up the flight attendants for a couple hours. Nothing stopping anyone from doing that.

e6bpilot
11-05-2018, 05:27 AM
The way those guys change teams I wouldnít be shocked if he left, went to work for Moxie, and used his insider knowledge to wipe us off the map.


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Very true. Moxie has a lot of headwinds to overcome to get off the ground. They are taking the Allegiant model and applying it to an airline with new airplanes. Sounds like a good way to burn through a pile of cash.

Botched
11-05-2018, 06:56 AM
That's a 7.5 hour flight on a bad day. I doubt there would be any demand for such a long haul flight in a 737.

This comment makes zero.zero sense. The vast majority of people are not in first class going to Hawaii. The 767 seats are just as horrible on a 7hr flight.

JetDoc
11-05-2018, 07:03 AM
United got it's head handed to the in the Hawaii market back in the 90's with frequent flyer redemption's. It got so bad that they took 4 paid for classic 747's and converted the interiors to hold nearly 500 people and flew them exclusively from the mainland to Hawaii.

Smokey23
11-05-2018, 07:10 AM
What Botched said.

Get some perspective, guys. I love to bag on my company as much as the next guy (well, maybe not quite as much as some around here :rolleyes:), but give them at least a little benefit of doubt for possibly actually succeeding with HI in spite of themselves. The big-picture track record around here really isn't worthy a "we're all doomed" mentality.

Ihateusernames
11-05-2018, 07:24 AM
The second jumpseat sucks, but I guarantee you it will be full a lot going to Hawaii. Some taller guys like to put their seats all the way back during cruise and even during takeoff and landing even though there is a giant placard telling you not to. Most first jumpseaters will move their legs to make room for that situation as we all want to just get to where we are going, but some captains will still deny the second jumpseat, even on a short leg. I find it personally and professionally embarrassing, but alas, itís his seat to give, not mine.
Sure, 7 hours up there would suck, but you could also stand up, exit the cockpit, and chat up the flight attendants for a couple hours. Nothing stopping anyone from doing that.


You find it embarrassing? GMAB. you must be tiny and not need the leg room. Iím not sitting crapped so some cheap pilot who doesnít want to buy a ticket can make my trip miserable. I guess thatís the joys of controlling the jumpseat. I think all the second jump seats should be removed. P.S. where is this placard that says you canít put your seat back? I donít see one.


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PotatoChip
11-05-2018, 08:05 AM
You find it embarrassing? GMAB. you must be tiny and not need the leg room. Iím not sitting crapped so some cheap pilot who doesnít want to buy a ticket can make my trip miserable. I guess thatís the joys of controlling the jumpseat. I think all the second jump seats should be removed. P.S. where is this placard that says you canít put your seat back? I donít see one.


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Something about the seat must be in so many inches of forward travel IIRC...

e6bpilot
11-05-2018, 08:08 AM
Itís on the floor I believe. Says seat must me in forward 7 inches of travel for takeoff and landing or something of that nature.
Guessing you arenít a commuter. That second Jumpseat has saved my bacon more times than I can count. I will never, ever turn away anyone who asks to sit there, but thatís just me.
I am six feet tall (but I am real flexible). I am willing to sacrifice a little personal comfort to help out a ďcheap pilotĒ.

Smokey23
11-05-2018, 08:13 AM
You find it embarrassing? GMAB. you must be tiny and not need the leg room. Iím not sitting crapped so some cheap pilot who doesnít want to buy a ticket can make my trip miserable. I guess thatís the joys of controlling the jumpseat. I think all the second jump seats should be removed. P.S. where is this placard that says you canít put your seat back? I donít see one.


Stretch, the less-douchey way to handle a second jumpseater is to place your seat where YOU need it to comfortably and safely perform your job, and then let the second j/sr decide if THEY can fit in the j/s.

e6bpilot
11-05-2018, 08:23 AM
And yeah, itís embarrassing as the FO to watch the captain wield ďhis authorityĒ to a commuter who is almost in tears trying to get home to his wife and kids. Said commuter came up and asked for a ride. Captain denied him citing safety of flight due to his height. Both Jumpseaters came up and begged captain, even demonstrating that second jumpseater could put his legs to the side and not impede seat. Captain made up some excuse about fed telling him he cannot have a second jump due to his height. I just said ďIím sorry about thisĒ and shrugged my shoulders.

Cysco4120
11-05-2018, 08:48 AM
You find it embarrassing? GMAB. you must be tiny and not need the leg room. Iím not sitting crapped so some cheap pilot who doesnít want to buy a ticket can make my trip miserable. I guess thatís the joys of controlling the jumpseat. I think all the second jump seats should be removed. P.S. where is this placard that says you canít put your seat back? I donít see one.


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Wow! I would definitely say you arenít a commuter. Remove all the second jumpseats. Who do you think you are? Your 6í5Ē. Who cares. I get not wanting a second jumpseat on a long flight but on a one or two hour flight? Really.

PotatoChip
11-05-2018, 09:00 AM
I've ridden the second jumpseat about five times. Once from PHL-PHX. I've always been extremely grateful and SWA crews have always been accommodating. Thank you!!
(I'm a short guy, and am happy to bend as necessary.)

Ihateusernames
11-05-2018, 09:17 AM
Wow! I would definitely say you arenít a commuter. Remove all the second jumpseats. Who do you think you are? Your 6í5Ē. Who cares. I get not wanting a second jumpseat on a long flight but on a one or two hour flight? Really.



Did you read my post above? So why donít you read before you comment. P.S. I am a commuter.


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Ihateusernames
11-05-2018, 09:18 AM
Wow! I would definitely say you arenít a commuter. Remove all the second jumpseats. Who do you think you are? Your 6í5Ē. Who cares. I get not wanting a second jumpseat on a long flight but on a one or two hour flight? Really.



Some of our planes donít even have the second jumpseat. 2 or less Hr is acceptable....over that it is not. Just my view.


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ZapBrannigan
11-05-2018, 11:46 AM
This comment makes zero.zero sense. The vast majority of people are not in first class going to Hawaii. The 767 seats are just as horrible on a 7hr flight.


At least thereís not a line from nose to tail to use the lav on a widebody. Two aisles mean people arenít tripping over each other as much.


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e6bpilot
11-05-2018, 12:09 PM
Apologize about the thread drift (not really). Lots of upgrades next year, everything is looking pretty good for the future for hiring as well. I am enjoying the ride while it lasts.

Peacock
11-05-2018, 12:49 PM
At least thereís not a line from nose to tail to use the lav on a widebody. Two aisles mean people arenít tripping over each other as much.


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Didnít they say the MAX 7 will have 150 seats and three lavís? Shouldnít be too bad.

No food, and more importantly no electrical outlets for charging is a bigger issue for a 7 hour flight in my opinion.

sMFer
11-05-2018, 12:55 PM
If there was money to be made interisland, Alaska would be doing it already. Itíll be an interesting experiment to watch.


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All hearsay to me, but Iíve flown with an OAK CKAM a few times whoís deep in the ETOPS program. According to him, the state of Hawaii came to us and asked us to fly inter island as theyíre not fond of Hawaiian ďtaking advantage of the residentsĒ. I can believe it. He also stated a potential plan of ferrying out a small fleet of 700 NGís and having them dedicated to that.


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sMFer
11-05-2018, 01:01 PM
Some of our planes donít even have the second jumpseat. 2 or less Hr is acceptable....over that it is not. Just my view.


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As a commuter who used to jump on SW all the time, that second seat is invaluable. Donít make your mind up just yet. On longer flights, Iíd talk to the CA and then the A Fa and ask through 10k if I could come in the back and sit in the extra FA seat. Every time they were ok with it. Iíd help with trash (if they wanted help), read etc. Iíd come back towards end of descent and it wasnít too bad for anyone.


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Ihateusernames
11-05-2018, 01:28 PM
As a commuter who used to jump on SW all the time, that second seat is invaluable. Donít make your mind up just yet. On longer flights, Iíd talk to the CA and then the A Fa and ask through 10k if I could come in the back and sit in the extra FA seat. Every time they were ok with it. Iíd help with trash (if they wanted help), read etc. Iíd come back towards end of descent and it wasnít too bad for anyone.


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Valid proposal. Iím basing it on the idea that there is a 4th in the seat. If so that technically wouldnít be acceptable assuming the seat belt sign would ever have to be turned on. But I get your idea.


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Zard
11-05-2018, 02:58 PM
And yeah, itís embarrassing as the FO to watch the captain wield ďhis authorityĒ to a commuter who is almost in tears trying to get home to his wife and kids. Said commuter came up and asked for a ride. Captain denied him citing safety of flight due to his height. Both Jumpseaters came up and begged captain, even demonstrating that second jumpseater could put his legs to the side and not impede seat. Captain made up some excuse about fed telling him he cannot have a second jump due to his height. I just said ďIím sorry about thisĒ and shrugged my shoulders.

Feel the luv.

PNWFlyer
11-06-2018, 02:13 PM
All hearsay to me, but Iíve flown with an OAK CKAM a few times whoís deep in the ETOPS program. According to him, the state of Hawaii came to us and asked us to fly inter island as theyíre not fond of Hawaiian ďtaking advantage of the residentsĒ. I can believe it. He also stated a potential plan of ferrying out a small fleet of 700 NGís and having them dedicated to that.


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Aloha did that. They were so successful they had to shut the airline down to devote more time to spending all the money.

I would think a guy deep in the ETOPS program would know that a 737-800 with 175 passengers and bags might find it a little difficult to depart LIH and OGG with ETOPS fuel. Might need to make a stop on an island with a longer runway... some may call that inter-island. I call it a technical stop.

Before you say Alaska does it remember, they carry people, not cattle. 159 pax and bags weigh a lot less. Also all of Alaska's ETOPS aircraft have the Short Field Performance package. SWA only has that on the MAX, since it now comes standard.

Salukidawg
11-06-2018, 02:34 PM
Aloha did that. They were so successful they had to shut the airline down to devote more time to spending all the money.

I would think a guy deep in the ETOPS program would know that a 737-800 with 175 passengers and bags might find it a little difficult to depart LIH and OGG with ETOPS fuel. Might need to make a stop on an island with a longer runway... some may call that inter-island. I call it a technical stop.

Before you say Alaska does it remember, they carry people, not cattle. 159 pax and bags weigh a lot less. Also all of Alaska's ETOPS aircraft have the Short Field Performance package. SWA only has that on the MAX, since it now comes standard.

Huh? All WN-800ís came from Boeing with the short field performance package.

PNWFlyer
11-06-2018, 03:16 PM
Huh? All WN-800ís came from Boeing with the short field performance package.

I thought your mechanics didn't want it because of the non-common parts. Like when all the airplanes were being delivered with the auto throttles disconnected.

I stand corrected.

Smooth at FL450
11-06-2018, 03:29 PM
I thought your mechanics didn't want it because of the non-common parts. Like when all the airplanes were being delivered with the auto throttles disconnected.

I stand corrected.

How else could we get them into and out of MDW?

RJSAviator76
11-06-2018, 03:46 PM
Aloha did that. They were so successful they had to shut the airline down to devote more time to spending all the money.






Uh no...

Aloha never flew 700ís interisland - they flew 200ís, and what did them in was a combination of bad management, unfair competition (Mesaís go!), lack of ASMís and fuel prices.

sMFer
11-06-2018, 04:41 PM
Aloha did that. They were so successful they had to shut the airline down to devote more time to spending all the money.

I would think a guy deep in the ETOPS program would know that a 737-800 with 175 passengers and bags might find it a little difficult to depart LIH and OGG with ETOPS fuel. Might need to make a stop on an island with a longer runway... some may call that inter-island. I call it a technical stop.

Before you say Alaska does it remember, they carry people, not cattle. 159 pax and bags weigh a lot less. Also all of Alaska's ETOPS aircraft have the Short Field Performance package. SWA only has that on the MAX, since it now comes standard.I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that they've probably done a wee bit more planning than you have or could ever know and wouldn't have taken this endeavor on if it wasn't possible.

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Smooth at FL450
11-06-2018, 04:45 PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that they've probably done a wee bit more planning than you have or could ever know and wouldn't have taken this endeavor on if it wasn't possible.

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I think theyíre totally winging it and havenít run a single number...

Proximity
11-06-2018, 04:59 PM
I think theyíre totally winging it and havenít run a single number...

We can just unload the 2nd freeloading jumpseater in order to make the numbers work.

* That's a joke, when it's my turn to control the JS I'll always take the 2nd jumpseater.

PNWFlyer
11-06-2018, 05:59 PM
I think theyíre totally winging it and havenít run a single number...

Well, that is what they were doing when you first bought your ETOPS 800's years ago.

Smooth at FL450
11-06-2018, 06:59 PM
Well, that is what they were doing when you first bought your ETOPS 800's years ago.

Seems they eventually did run some numbers...and it’s not like those etops -800s have been collecting dust since then. Economics of the Max have clearly changed the math

Cysco4120
11-06-2018, 07:07 PM
Aloha did that. They were so successful they had to shut the airline down to devote more time to spending all the money.

I would think a guy deep in the ETOPS program would know that a 737-800 with 175 passengers and bags might find it a little difficult to depart LIH and OGG with ETOPS fuel. Might need to make a stop on an island with a longer runway... some may call that inter-island. I call it a technical stop.

Before you say Alaska does it remember, they carry people, not cattle. 159 pax and bags weigh a lot less. Also all of Alaska's ETOPS aircraft have the Short Field Performance package. SWA only has that on the MAX, since it now comes standard.

Alaska carries people and Southwest carries cattle. Good one. How long did it take you to come up with that one? Guess cattle must be worth a lot more. Have you actually said anything that is factually correct. You were wrong about our 800ís. Wrong about Aloha. You or I have no idea what WN is doing but you donít mind coming on here and spewing a bunch of bad info.

Smooth at FL450
11-06-2018, 07:17 PM
Alaska carries people and Southwest carries cattle. Good one. How long did it take you to come up with that one? Guess cattle must be worth a lot more. Have you actually said anything that is factually correct. You were wrong about our 800ís. Wrong about Aloha. You or I have no idea what WN is doing but you donít mind coming on here and spewing a bunch of bad info.

Maybe he just heard that our EVP, Chief Revenue Officer, has Alaska Airlines squarely in his sights as we enter the Hawaiian market, and thatís making him nervous?

e6bpilot
11-06-2018, 08:31 PM
This thread has jumped the shark. SWA doesnít enter a market to lose money and I highly doubt they will do so in Hawaii. They have a Hawaii industry insider running the network and I am fairly certain an extensive amount of research has been done.
Alaska has a great product and my family has bought tickets on them to Hawaii and would do it again. They own the SEA/PDX portion of that market and I highly doubt that will change. They also have the option to feed their Hawaii airplanes with secondary markets using Skywest or Horizon (good for the company, not for mainline pilots). Donít count them out.
In the end, I think there is plenty of room for both to operate there. I have a feeling that for the price of two Love Field gates, SWA and Alaska would probably come to a hasty agreement that would chill out the whole ďbattle for CaliforniaĒ thing that is going on.

Peacock
11-06-2018, 09:10 PM
Alaska should be scared. SWA is murdering Alaska in California. Add Hawaii service to that, and itís not pretty for them.

Peacock
11-06-2018, 09:13 PM
This thread has jumped the shark. SWA doesnít enter a market to lose money and I highly doubt they will do so in Hawaii. They have a Hawaii industry insider running the network and I am fairly certain an extensive amount of research has been done.
Alaska has a great product and my family has bought tickets on them to Hawaii and would do it again. They own the SEA/PDX portion of that market and I highly doubt that will change. They also have the option to feed their Hawaii airplanes with secondary markets using Skywest or Horizon (good for the company, not for mainline pilots). Donít count them out.
In the end, I think there is plenty of room for both to operate there. I have a feeling that for the price of two Love Field gates, SWA and Alaska would probably come to a hasty agreement that would chill out the whole ďbattle for CaliforniaĒ thing that is going on.


No offense but two gates at DAL is peanuts compared to California. 39MM people in Cali. 28MM in Texas, and DAL is a tiny portion of the market there.

Proximity
11-07-2018, 05:24 AM
Some hiring stats for 2018:

97% of new hires have a four year degree or higher.

35 pilots resigned who had been on property 0-5 years.

Retention seems to be way up.

Smooth at FL450
11-07-2018, 06:16 AM
Alaska should be scared. SWA is murdering Alaska in California. Add Hawaii service to that, and itís not pretty for them.


And their 2 gates in DAL is the poke that finally woke the bear up! And now SWA is swinging back.

e6bpilot
11-07-2018, 06:18 AM
No offense but two gates at DAL is peanuts compared to California. 39MM people in Cali. 28MM in Texas, and DAL is a tiny portion of the market there.



It was sort of tongue in cheek but those Love gates are worth a lot to SWA and it has a lot bigger reach than just Texas. The California thing is pretty much a wrap. We have sent a lot of extra capacity that way and are opening up a crew base in our biggest market out there. We will continue to be the dominant carrier out there because it is the biggest market in the US, perhaps besides the Northeast where we just donít have the infrastructure to dominate like the legacy carriers do.
Alaska responded by darkening the skies with Skywest E175s and cutting capacity to a lot of places where it and VA fly.

Salukidawg
11-07-2018, 06:42 AM
I think all this ends with an eventual WN/AS merger. I donít think that is what AS wants, but they have backed themselves into a corner with their VX acquisition and now are going to have no choice but to burn through cash to defend their newly acquired turf in California. When it becomes painfully obvious to them that they arenít going to be able to do that and they have nowhere else to turn, they will begrudgingly have to accept their fate and agree to a merger. My predicition is 18-24 months from now tops.

Smokey23
11-07-2018, 07:03 AM
I think all this ends with an eventual WN/AS merger. I donít think that is what AS wants, but they have backed themselves into a corner with their VX acquisition and now are going to have no choice but to burn through cash to defend their newly acquired turf in California. When it becomes painfully obvious to them that they arenít going to be able to do that and they have nowhere else to turn, they will begrudgingly have to accept their fate and agree to a merger. My predicition is 18-24 months from now tops.


Eeee-yep. Next time the economy takes a hit, look for GK to whip out his checkbook. If there's anything the last two decades here have taught me, it's never say never.

e6bpilot
11-07-2018, 11:20 AM
Some hiring stats for 2018:



97% of new hires have a four year degree or higher.



35 pilots resigned who had been on property 0-5 years.



Retention seems to be way up.



I like how in that article, the company is patting itself on the back for the retention. One entity is responsible for the retention going up, and that is SWAPA. Can you imagine how awesome retention would have been under TA1?

Caveman
11-08-2018, 03:58 AM
During the next economic valley & hiring slows/stops, the upgrade reality for today's SWA new hire is going to be significant factor to over come regarding attracting high quality candidates.

SWAs "BIG" annual retirement years pale in comparison to other choices.

Squallrider
11-08-2018, 05:08 AM
During the next economic valley & hiring slows/stops, the upgrade reality for today's SWA new hire is going to be significant factor to over come regarding attracting high quality candidates.

SWAs "BIG" annual retirement years pale in comparison to other choices.

True. If youíre a senior FO you can make closer to captain pay with work but the time to reach senior FO is going higher itself. Difference between a 10 year upgrade and even 5 at United is easily 500k in earnings. Some might take the stability of SWA over the others though , SWA has the business model to withstand economic downturns better than others

e6bpilot
11-08-2018, 09:18 AM
During the next economic valley & hiring slows/stops, the upgrade reality for today's SWA new hire is going to be significant factor to over come regarding attracting high quality candidates.



SWAs "BIG" annual retirement years pale in comparison to other choices.



Percentage wise, itís about the same as UA and DL. It just happens a couple years later than the legacies.
During an economic downturn, the falling tide will lower everyoneís boat. There seems to be this persistent theory that certain carriers are furlough proof or will withstand a recession better. When the music stops, I think all of us will be in a bad spot in one way or another. SWAPA has never had a furloughed pilot...yet. AAs management has stated they will never lose money again...until they do.

RJSAviator76
11-08-2018, 09:32 AM
Percentage wise, itís about the same as UA and DL. It just happens a couple years later than the legacies.
During an economic downturn, the falling tide will lower everyoneís boat. There seems to be this persistent theory that certain carriers are furlough proof or will withstand a recession better. When the music stops, I think all of us will be in a bad spot in one way or another. SWAPA has never had a furloughed pilot...yet. AAs management has stated they will never lose money again...until they do.



Hereís another discussion topic:

Suppose you live in base as an FO and you choose to upgrade at the earliest possible time and commute to be a plug reserve and then the music stops. What do you do? Do you bid back to FO at the earliest possible time and come back home? Or do you grit your teeth and stick it out commuting to reserve?

Smokey23
11-08-2018, 10:41 AM
If you choose to upgrade into a commute+reserve situation, you deserve all the potentially awful QOL you are setting yourself up for! :eek:


Best to avoid living on the ragged edge of what one's seniority will hold, unless you don't mind being surprised (in a bad way) by what the next month may bring.



My two pearls of wisdom....take 'em for what they're worth.

flyguy81
11-08-2018, 12:56 PM
According to Rocky:

-Done interviewing this week for the rest of the year.
-Classes full until April 2019.
-Doing webinars to keep poolies in the loop until they hit class, knowing some will bail for another job if one presents itself first.
-Majority of those yr 1-5 guys quitting are going to Fedex
-Planning to hire 500-700 next year

From CQT:
- Front-loading upgrades next year
- ETOPS is in hands of Feds. Once approved, they do table exercises and then proving runs (could be hard to schedule over the holidays depending on when approval comes)
- LAX opens Jan-March range...probably closer to Feb/March
- Next years training is a full day of ground school/VPT, 3 days of sim so could be a 5 day if you come early or can't commute in on day 1.
-Feds roaming the LEAD center said the Lion Air accident will probably result in some kind of training next year.

at6d
11-08-2018, 01:10 PM
Interestingly enough, in sim this year we had airspeed indicator failure (except for the standby).

Of course, this was in an 800 sim.

Proximity
11-08-2018, 04:21 PM
Suppose you live in base as an FO and you choose to upgrade at the earliest possible time and commute to be a plug reserve and then the music stops. What do you do? Do you bid back to FO at the earliest possible time and come back home? Or do you grit your teeth and stick it out commuting to reserve?

One thing that I don't think many hired here since 2015 realize is that is the music stops and there is no hiring and no upgrades, there may not be a bid on a monthly basis like you see now. You can't base and/or seat hop in this situation.

Everyones situation is different, but for me I think that FO life is so good I'm going to wait to upgrade in base. If LAX was to go very junior, I could see bidding CA there and taking the paid move. I won't commute to upgrade.

Cysco4120
11-08-2018, 08:13 PM
One thing that I don't think many hired here since 2015 realize is that is the music stops and there is no hiring and no upgrades, there may not be a bid on a monthly basis like you see now. You can't base and/or seat hop in this situation.

Everyones situation is different, but for me I think that FO life is so good I'm going to wait to upgrade in base. If LAX was to go very junior, I could see bidding CA there and taking the paid move. I won't commute to upgrade.


Very true. If I lived in base I would not even consider commuting anywhere to CA reserve. Senior FO = first choice of everything from schedules to vacation. Junior CA = no choice of anything. First available upgrade loses its luster if you are on reserve for two years. Those people bypassing upgrade will continue to pile in on top of you. Some of my classmates took upgrade in OAK in June. They are at the bottom and havenít moved up a number since then.

Like was mentioned above when things slow down there are no monthly vacancies and when we do have one it is just some small adjustments. No guarantees on when you could get back.

Macjet
11-13-2018, 05:12 PM
If somebody has a ton of Rapid Rewards points and Companion Pass, do you think they'd rather spend $2-3000 to fly on United because of the aircraft type??? I highly doubt that. And there is just as much revenue generated when a ticket is booked via points, it's called deferred income because those points were earned on a previous purchase.

DFW-HNL is running $700-800 on AA and DL right now with one stop. A321 and B757 respectively. +$400 if you want a 777 non-stop.

Smooth at FL450
11-13-2018, 05:56 PM
DFW-HNL is running $700-800 on AA and DL right now with one stop. A321 and B757 respectively. +$400 if you want a 777 non-stop.

Cool. The day I posted that, I picked a date during ski week in February and these are the rates available on DEN-HNL.

Of course there are deals in the weeks prior to a major holiday, that shouldnít be a surprise to anyone.

Peacock
11-13-2018, 09:00 PM
DFW-HNL is running $700-800 on AA and DL right now with one stop. A321 and B757 respectively. +$400 if you want a 777 non-stop.

More if you want to bring bags

Proximity
11-16-2018, 10:59 AM
Looks like ETOPS base for OAK will open in February and LAX in March. Pretty small to start with so maybe new hires won't be subjected to ETOPS initially.

Loon
11-24-2018, 04:49 AM
One thing that I don't think many hired here since 2015 realize is that is the music stops and there is no hiring and no upgrades, there may not be a bid on a monthly basis like you see now. You can't base and/or seat hop in this.

Maybe true for military folk, but those of us that came from the regionals know all too well how vacancy bids work.

at6d
11-24-2018, 08:58 AM
Or the music stopping....

Seaplane
12-01-2018, 06:39 PM
What are the average hours Southwest wants for a candidate to be competitive? Think this will this change as competition from other airlines recruiting ramps up?

flyguy81
12-02-2018, 07:40 AM
What are the average hours Southwest wants for a candidate to be competitive? Think this will this change as competition from other airlines recruiting ramps up?

3 years ago it was 10k+ hrs and a CKA or CP, with type preferred.

Now I think 6-8k hrs and a little luck will get you the call.

SlipKid
12-02-2018, 07:54 AM
One thing that I don't think many hired here since 2015 realize is that is the music stops and there is no hiring and no upgrades, there may not be a bid on a monthly basis like you see now. You can't base and/or seat hop in this situation.


FWIW, the last time the music stopped, we still had vacancy bids every month.

It was harder to carpetbag bases, but folks still did it.

Lot of folks, effectively, got displaced from their base with no right of return due to the -3 this month, +1 next month VB nonsense, some for years. The junior MCO people were hit hard by this BS.

sMFer
12-02-2018, 12:23 PM
Meanwhile on the Republic forum. Bwaaahaaaaa

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181202/e061573f712d91713f6171dc36b1c6d1.jpg


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Squallrider
12-02-2018, 12:35 PM
There was a note at the bottom of one of the SWAPA letters about flow, didnít say with who. Was in the last couple of months from the the president.

sMFer
12-02-2018, 12:47 PM
There was a note at the bottom of one of the SWAPA letters about flow, didnít say with who. Was in the last couple of months from the the president.



Are you serious? I just canít see us ever needing flow with anyone.


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ZapBrannigan
12-02-2018, 12:57 PM
Are you serious? I just canít see us ever needing flow with anyone.


Really?

https://giphy.com/gifs/clasharama-fear-hole-Ae44DIQABSe6Q


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Peacock
12-02-2018, 01:27 PM
Are you serious? I just canít see us ever needing flow with anyone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Once the legacies are all retiring 1000 per year each the hiring environment will be very different. Iím wondering what we get out of the deal though. AA flow with its wholly ownedís makes sense to keep its regionals staffed. How would we benefit staffing someone who flies for our competition?

sMFer
12-02-2018, 02:22 PM
Once the legacies are all retiring 1000 per year each the hiring environment will be very different. Iím wondering what we get out of the deal though. AA flow with its wholly ownedís makes sense to keep its regionals staffed. How would we benefit staffing someone who flies for our competition?



The only benefit would be it *could* hurt the legacies by taking pilots that potentially could go to them. Seems like an extreme long shot to me.


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Squallrider
12-02-2018, 03:41 PM
Are you serious? I just canít see us ever needing flow with anyone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am serious and donít call me Shirley.

But yes it was on there and I was perplexed with who it could be with. Maybe someone can find it? I doubt itís republic , their mainline partners would not consent to that

jetset
12-02-2018, 04:37 PM
Maybe someone can find it?

It is in the Feb 9, 2018 SWAPA email from the BOD week highlights. Basically says we need to have one for a pipeline of pilots but nothing to indicate that the company is working on getting a flow through with anyone.

Lostboys97
12-02-2018, 04:56 PM
I am serious and donít call me Shirley.

But yes it was on there and I was perplexed with who it could be with. Maybe someone can find it? I doubt itís republic , their mainline partners would not consent to that

Their mainline partners would not need to consent to it. The partners have a financial vest in the airline, butís itís not a majority stake.

Squallrider
12-02-2018, 06:01 PM
Their mainline partners would not need to consent to it. The partners have a financial vest in the airline, butís itís not a majority stake.

Correct but they could face retaliation when their contracts come to renewal

WhiteMorpheus
12-03-2018, 08:15 AM
Can someone clarify the application minimums for me?

2500 Fixed Wing or
1500 Turbine, and preferred
1000 TPIC with the caveat that Sim time, Rotorwing time, RSO time, etc don't count.

Does that caveat apply to all categories, or just the TPIC? My concern is that I'll probably have 1500 Turbine time by the next window (not that I'll be competitive), but I don't want to erroneously state my times if the RW time should be excluded.

at6d
12-03-2018, 08:33 AM
From Credentials:

Southwest Airlines Pilot Requirements:


Certificates/Ratings: U.S. FAA Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. Unrestricted U.S. ATP
Age: Must be at least 23 years of age.
Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered.
Currency: Experience should include actively flying two of the last five years.
FCC Radiotelephone Operator Permit.
Medical: Must possess a current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate. Must pass FAA mandated Drug Test.
Authorization to work in the United States: Must have established authorization to work in the United States.
Must possess a valid United States Driver's License and a valid passport or a Refugee Travel Document.
Education: graduation from accredited, four-year College preferred.
Letters of Recommendation: At least three letters from any individuals who can attest to the pilot's flying skills, by having observed him/her over a sustained period of time.

*PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot in Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander n the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered.

Military Conversion: Military Pilots may convert flight time by adding .3 hours per sortie.

Applicants who have a B737 Type Rating must not have limitations other than "B-737 CIRC.APCH.-VMC ONLY"

Proximity
12-05-2018, 04:00 PM
Looks like some changes have been made to how attendees are selected for the Pilot Expo. Current pilots can refer applicants for the next Pilot Expo which occur on February 16th. Looks like recruiting will then sort though those referrals and choose who will attend. This is welcome change from before, where getting an expo slot was a combination of luck and a fast internet connection. It's also interesting since this is the first time in awhile current employees have been able to have some influence on who is selected for an interview.

So if you're interested in attending the Pilot Expo, find a current pilot to recommend you no later than Dec 31st.

at6d
12-05-2018, 06:21 PM
Confirmed. Company email today.

cezzna
12-06-2018, 01:36 AM
Where is the expo and where do I send bribe money to get on the list?

Bestshooter
12-06-2018, 06:56 AM
Looks like some changes have been made to how attendees are selected for the Pilot Expo. Current pilots can refer applicants for the next Pilot Expo which occur on February 16th. Looks like recruiting will then sort though those referrals and choose who will attend. This is welcome change from before, where getting an expo slot was a combination of luck and a fast internet connection. It's also interesting since this is the first time in awhile current employees have been able to have some influence on who is selected for an interview.

So if you're interested in attending the Pilot Expo, find a current pilot to recommend you no later than Dec 31st.

Do you know if there is a special place for this internal person to submit a rec or how do they do it on their end ?

at6d
12-06-2018, 07:16 AM
We have an internal link to a form we fill out with the prospective candidateís information (and our own).

The candidate must have a current Pilot Credentials app on file.

Bestshooter
12-06-2018, 07:50 AM
Great thanks . Wanted to make sure I did it right .

Smooth at FL450
12-06-2018, 08:06 AM
Do you know if there is a special place for this internal person to submit a rec or how do they do it on their end ?


Yes. The instructions are in a company email sent out yesterday. It's very easy and your friend just needs the name and email address you used to create your pilot credentials profile.

SlipperyWing
12-06-2018, 09:37 AM
Regarding the expo, you need a current medical but not necessarily a first class medical (need that for the interview).

The credentials website says a first class medical is required to create an account. Is that requirement more for the application itself, or does the pilot credentials site really need a 1st Class Med just to get the account started?

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opas76
12-06-2018, 09:56 AM
Yes. The instructions are in a company email sent out yesterday. It's very easy and your friend just needs the name and email address you used to create your pilot credentials profile.

Do you know how recommendations one can give? Thanks!

Smooth at FL450
12-06-2018, 10:52 AM
Do you know how recommendations one can give? Thanks!


Not aware of any limit. The form even asks if you'd like to submit another recommendation.

opas76
12-06-2018, 11:34 AM
Not aware of any limit. The form even asks if you'd like to submit another recommendation.

Cool, thanks.

Auburngrad2007
12-06-2018, 12:56 PM
Is Southwest able to see any previous changes I made to my application on pilot credentials? Or are they only able to see the current published version of my application.

Skyward
12-06-2018, 06:33 PM
Is Southwest able to see any previous changes I made to my application on pilot credentials? Or are they only able to see the current published version of my application.

I donít know for sure, but assume they have access to any previous pulls of your app. Just answer 100% honest and any changes wonít matter. You need it to be accurate when they pull it for an interview.

If you change something important between interview invite and interview then Iím not sure about that.

Smooth at FL450
12-06-2018, 06:58 PM
Is Southwest able to see any previous changes I made to my application on pilot credentials? Or are they only able to see the current published version of my application.


Yes they can. What matters is that the version of your application that gets you the interview is an accurate representation of who you are. Anything that needs to be discussed during the interview (ex failed checkrides) needs to be disclosed by that point. If you 'remember' the failed checkride after you've been invited to interview, you've now misrepresented yourself to the company.

Auburngrad2007
12-07-2018, 02:38 AM
Yes they can. What matters is that the version of your application that gets you the interview is an accurate representation of who you are. Anything that needs to be discussed during the interview (ex failed checkrides) needs to be disclosed by that point. If you 'remember' the failed checkride after you've been invited to interview, you've now misrepresented yourself to the company.

Got it. It was in reference to my military hours. I want to make sure my changes don't raise any eyebrows. Thanks.

Smooth at FL450
12-07-2018, 06:28 AM
Got it. It was in reference to my military hours. I want to make sure my changes don't raise any eyebrows. Thanks.


You should be fine as long as you don't take out a bunch of PIC time after you've been invited to interview.

deltajuliet
12-08-2018, 07:24 AM
Thanks for all the recent info on the referral process. Just double checking: is it only current pilots who can recommend, or can retired pilots or non-pilot employees recommend too? Thanks!

n606tw
12-17-2018, 05:53 PM
When is the next hiring window? thanks

flyoutaz
12-17-2018, 07:11 PM
Hello,
Would one of you current swa guys be willing to pm me a copy of your resume that you used for your application? Finishing up my app and planning to do a review service after Christmas but figured I should get my app in before the end of the month. I've got a rough version, but wasn't sure about how swa wants details on when promoted to other airframes/Capt, volunteer, extra education.
Thanks!

n606tw
12-20-2018, 05:52 PM
SWA JobExpo on Feb 16! Any intel?

at6d
12-21-2018, 05:34 AM
SWA JobExpo on Feb 16! Any intel?

Invites to expo will be based on internal recommendations submitted by the end of this month.

Back up a few pages in this thread for more details.

JulesWinfield
12-22-2018, 08:34 AM
Invites to expo will be based on internal recommendations submitted by the end of this month.

Back up a few pages in this thread for more details.

Is there a set date when the invites will go out? I've had two internal recs submit the form, but haven't heard anything.

ZapBrannigan
12-22-2018, 09:45 AM
Is there a set date when the invites will go out? I've had two internal recs submit the form, but haven't heard anything.


Itíll be after 12/31 I bet. Thatís when the forms had to be in by


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Kapitanleutnant
12-25-2018, 03:13 PM
Anyone heard the latest greatest on hiring numbers for 2019? I know it's early on in this thread but also know it's probably changed a few times since....

Thanks for any most recent updates/info

Kap

at6d
12-25-2018, 05:10 PM
500-700 new hires for 2019 according to the kool aide.

planesense
12-27-2018, 09:42 AM
How often (if at all) does someone move from right seat at a regional to right seat at SWA? I noticed the requirements say PIC time is "preferred", and I have a friend who says it does happen on occasion, but I'd like to hear it from people who know for sure. When the time comes for me to attempt this (if it's even feasible), I'll be 50 with a master's degree, FWIW.

PotatoChip
12-27-2018, 09:51 AM
How often (if at all) does someone move from right seat at a regional to right seat at SWA? I noticed the requirements say PIC time is "preferred", and I have a friend who says it does happen on occasion, but I'd like to hear it from people who know for sure. When the time comes for me to attempt this (if it's even feasible), I'll be 50 with a master's degree, FWIW.

I've heard of one person in the last two years that did it, and less than 10 that have have gotten hired with lower than 1000tpic. I've been to the in-house job fair, and a large conference job fair, and both times was told that 1000 is still a basic requirement.

symbian simian
12-27-2018, 11:35 AM
How often (if at all) does someone move from right seat at a regional to right seat at SWA? I noticed the requirements say PIC time is "preferred", and I have a friend who says it does happen on occasion, but I'd like to hear it from people who know for sure. When the time comes for me to attempt this (if it's even feasible), I'll be 50 with a master's degree, FWIW.

Not as SWA myself, buy close relative is.
The good news is SWA is probably the least ageist company, plenty of people getting hired around age 50. The bad news, even if thereís a few who get in without TPIC, the vast majority have it. Upgrade at regional is pretty quick, so getting at least some TPIC and a successful upgrade on your resume should not delay you too much.

SkyJunky
12-27-2018, 04:14 PM
How often (if at all) does someone move from right seat at a regional to right seat at SWA? I noticed the requirements say PIC time is "preferred", and I have a friend who says it does happen on occasion, but I'd like to hear it from people who know for sure. When the time comes for me to attempt this (if it's even feasible), I'll be 50 with a master's degree, FWIW.



My very good friend is an FO at SWA. He said he had a new hire in the jumpseat doing an observation ride. The new hire had 9 months as an FO at his previous 121 gig, no TPIC experience.

tm602
12-28-2018, 05:32 AM
I've heard of one person in the last two years that did it, and less than 10 that have have gotten hired with lower than 1000tpic. I've been to the in-house job fair, and a large conference job fair, and both times was told that 1000 is still a basic requirement.

Someone more in the know might chime in but we have lost a lot of FOs at NutJets to SWA and most of them had under 1000 TPIC. Happy for them, its like watching Andy leave Shawshank.

Warhawg01
12-28-2018, 08:10 AM
We had a pilot that sits on the hiring board on the jumpseat a few months ago. He said the 1000 TPIC was not really a showstopper anymore.

Goose Lives
12-28-2018, 08:26 AM
Many places say updating your hours consistently will give you more "points". Does reuploading your resume have that same effect on ICMS since it doesn't have an hours section. Or does it really come down to resubmitting every open window and that's it?

Peacock
12-28-2018, 11:15 AM
Many places say updating your hours consistently will give you more "points". Does reuploading your resume have that same effect on ICMS since it doesn't have an hours section. Or does it really come down to resubmitting every open window and that's it?

I doubt thereís any place that gives extra points for updating more often. Keeping it current is necessary but just updating random stuff every day isnít going to help.

Titanhank
12-28-2018, 11:29 AM
I had a new hire on the jumpseat a few months ago. Their background was flight instruction, 2 years at mesa and now here without ever upgrading. 0 TPIC. They are looking at a 35 year career with probably 25 years as a captain.

TeamSasquatch
12-28-2018, 11:35 AM
When they say 1000TPIC, do the want 121 captain time? Or do people with 2k 135 Twin Turboprop PIC and a Year 121 SIC have a chance ?

Goose Lives
12-28-2018, 12:16 PM
I had a new hire on the jumpseat a few months ago. Their background was flight instruction, 2 years at mesa and now here without ever upgrading. 0 TPIC. They are looking at a 35 year career with probably 25 years as a captain.

Were they a Sim Instructor or any other major quals that helped this person out?

e6bpilot
12-28-2018, 02:07 PM
Were they a Sim Instructor or any other major quals that helped this person out?



My informal poll of folks with those types of resumes is that they are generally well connected with someone in management. Dad is a check airman, friend of family works as a lead something or other project pilot, etc. I am sure there are outliers, and one still has to pass the interview, but getting hired with zero PIC is a rarity.
Nothing wrong with that, just the reality of it. The way to get hired hasnít changed. Get PIC experience, preferably in an airline or via the military, get ďotherĒ quals like CKA, and then apply apply apply (to everyone, not just SWA).

Kapitanleutnant
12-28-2018, 02:42 PM
Ya, SWA took me in at the ripe old age of 59.5 so... yes, they hire older pilots. Of course I had the comparable experience for my age as well. I did hear of one new hire who was over 60.

So it does happen!!

Kap


Not as SWA myself, buy close relative is.
The good news is SWA is probably the least ageist company, plenty of people getting hired around age 50. The bad news, even if thereís a few who get in without TPIC, the vast majority have it. Upgrade at regional is pretty quick, so getting at least some TPIC and a successful upgrade on your resume should not delay you too much.

PowerShift
12-28-2018, 09:14 PM
I was hired in 2017, and the average age in my class was 38. The youngest guy was 32 and the oldest 56. Average TT was 7000 hrs. Other then the mil guys, ALL 121/135/91 folks had been check airman, chief pilots, director of ops, safety officers, etc etc. All had a 4 yr degree. Most had thousands of hours PIC turbine.

That may be changing, but the outlyers probably amount to a handful of new hires a year. Age is not a factor, all age groups are represented.

Learflyer
12-29-2018, 04:06 AM
I was hired in 2017, and the average age in my class was 38. The youngest guy was 32 and the oldest 56. Average TT was 7000 hrs. Other then the mil guys, ALL 121/135/91 folks had been check airman, chief pilots, director of ops, safety officers, etc etc. All had a 4 yr degree. Most had thousands of hours PIC turbine.

That may be changing, but the outlyers probably amount to a handful of new hires a year. Age is not a factor, all age groups are represented.

This is the #1 discriminator today at all of the airlines.

Tenacvols
12-29-2018, 05:10 AM
I doubt thereís any place that gives extra points for updating more often. Keeping it current is necessary but just updating random stuff every day isnít going to help.

Actually FedEx does..

at6d
12-29-2018, 07:45 AM
I was hired in 2017, and the average age in my class was 38. The youngest guy was 32 and the oldest 56. Average TT was 7000 hrs. Other then the mil guys, ALL 121/135/91 folks had been check airman, chief pilots, director of ops, safety officers, etc etc. All had a 4 yr degree. Most had thousands of hours PIC turbine.

That may be changing, but the outlyers probably amount to a handful of new hires a year. Age is not a factor, all age groups are represented.

Carbon copy of my class in 2015, except all but six had the type.

Squallrider
12-29-2018, 06:56 PM
Never hurts to apply even without the tpic. Most people that lack in one area make up for it something else. Southwest likes diverse backgrounds.

deltajuliet
01-02-2019, 07:31 AM
SWA JobExpo on Feb 16! Any intel?

For bidding off, hopefully they'll start sending invites soon. Don't suppose anyone has heard anything yet?

Edit: Looking back, the June 16 Expo didn't send out invites until May 18, so maybe we have a little while.

Auburngrad2007
01-02-2019, 07:48 AM
How many recipients are getting invites?

OB Pilot
01-02-2019, 08:19 AM
How many recipients are getting invites?

I believe previous Expo events have included 400 invitees. Not certain if this one will be the same number or not though.

Titanhank
01-02-2019, 08:45 AM
Were they a Sim Instructor or any other major quals that helped this person out?


Nope. Nothing special.

MudhammedCJ
01-02-2019, 09:56 AM
"They" is code for "she." :)

Proximity
01-24-2019, 08:37 AM
Q4 earnings say the fleet will be 775 aircraft by end of 2019. I'm estimating the total pilot group will be 10,100 by end of 2019 based on our current manning. Factoring in retirements, we can expect 500-600 new hires for 2019.

Kapitanleutnant
01-26-2019, 10:44 PM
Buddy of mine who flies the 787 overseas is interested in SWA but he doesn't have 4 year degree.

Some thoughts out there on with the left seat experience in both 777 and 787... could/would that mitigate the lack of 4 year degree?

Thanks

Kap

at6d
01-27-2019, 09:25 AM
I thought I read a recent stat put out by the union on hiring that stated non-degree new hires were 3% of the total number.

Iíd apply.

RJSAviator76
01-27-2019, 09:27 AM
Kap, have your buddy get at least a 2 year degree... he can get it almost immediately based on his experience alone.

Something is better than nothing.

Proximity
01-27-2019, 11:55 AM
Some thoughts out there on with the left seat experience in both 777 and 787... could/would that mitigate the lack of 4 year degree?


Two year degree as RJS said...but also if he has any management, safety, check airman, or instructor experience that seems to be the ticket to getting an interview without a degree.

Jet J
01-28-2019, 05:06 PM
Kap, have your buddy get at least a 2 year degree... he can get it almost immediately based on his experience alone.

Something is better than nothing.

Do you, or anyone else know of any good online schools that give credit for ATP, CFI etc.

Learflyer
01-28-2019, 08:29 PM
Do you, or anyone else know of any good online schools that give credit for ATP, CFI etc.

www.excelsior.edu.

Also, look up Thomas Edison State College.

RJSAviator76
01-29-2019, 01:39 AM
Even ERAU does as well...

Grumpyaviator
01-29-2019, 03:30 PM
Do you, or anyone else know of any good online schools that give credit for ATP, CFI etc.

If youíre prior military Liberty accepts all your flight experience and military credit and have a great military discount.

WhaleSurfing
01-29-2019, 06:13 PM
Two year degree as RJS said...but also if he has any management, safety, check airman, or instructor experience that seems to be the ticket to getting an interview without a degree.

^^^^^This^^^^^

Jet J
01-30-2019, 07:44 AM
www.excelsior.edu.

Also, look up Thomas Edison State College.

Looking it up thanks.

Kapitanleutnant
01-30-2019, 09:31 AM
Thanks very much gang, for the recommendations. I didn't realize schools would give credit for experience but that is great news!

My buddy did in fact used to be a CKA with a 737 operator a decade or more ago....

Again, my thanks

Kap

n606tw
01-30-2019, 01:47 PM
If youíre prior military Liberty accepts all your flight experience and military credit and have a great military discount.

Does Liberty offer a 4 years BS in Aviation? Thanks

ZapBrannigan
01-30-2019, 01:49 PM
Does Liberty offer a 4 years BS in Aviation? Thanks


Most Aviation degrees are BS.
(Yes, Iíve got one too)


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saab2000
01-30-2019, 01:55 PM
Does Liberty offer a 4 years BS in Aviation? Thanks

I think they do. I once had a jumpseater from American Eagle but they might have been Envoy by then. Don't remember. Anyway, he was a Liberty graduate IIRC and I think did his flight schooling there. I remember asking and being a bit surprised but that is my memory.

n606tw
01-30-2019, 03:16 PM
Most Aviation degrees are BS.
(Yes, Iíve got one too)


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Sorry for my ignorance but on their website it says 3.5 years ... not 4!

ROFF
01-30-2019, 03:34 PM
Most Aviation degrees are BS.
(Yes, Iíve got one too)


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Uh careful there.

Some of us are proud of the 5 1/2 years we slaved to get that ďdegreeĒ. :D

Proximity
02-13-2019, 01:32 PM
Application window will be open from February 17 to March 20. To be considered you need to apply, even if you have previous applications still pending.

BobbyLeeSwagger
02-18-2019, 09:08 AM
Application window will be open from February 17 to March 20. To be considered you need to apply, even if you have previous applications still pending.

JetDoc, you ready for round 7 homie?!

flysooner9
02-18-2019, 03:03 PM
Is this window longer then normal?

PotatoChip
02-18-2019, 03:05 PM
Is this window longer then normal?

Seems like it; most have been two weeks IIRC.

epicadv
02-18-2019, 03:35 PM
Anyone know if there is any benefit to applying if one doesn't quite meet the 2,500 hrs TT minimum? Something like, the longer your application has been active, the better?

SkyJunky
02-18-2019, 07:29 PM
Anyone know if there is any benefit to applying if one doesn't quite meet the 2,500 hrs TT minimum? Something like, the longer your application has been active, the better?



First, when you apply to the career website, the questionnaire asks you some eligibility questions. One of which is the 2,500 hours question. The last one asks if youíve answered all the above truthfully. In any case, youíll be ineligible if you donít have the time.

Second, this is the statement on the pilot credentials website,
ďSouthwest Airlines is accepting new profiles only for pilot job seekers who meet basic minimum qualifications for Southwest Airlines pilot positions.Ē

Hope that helps answer your question.

friend
02-19-2019, 07:15 PM
Southeastern Oklahoma state univ

sMFer
02-20-2019, 08:19 AM
Southeastern Oklahoma state univPhew. I was wondering about that.

[emoji55]

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Dhood84
02-20-2019, 12:09 PM
Here goes round 4 lol. Persistence is key I guess.

DH

PotatoChip
02-20-2019, 12:31 PM
Here goes round 4 lol. Persistence is key I guess.

DH

Round 4?
I'm on round 11.

Dhood84
02-20-2019, 12:43 PM
Round 4?
I'm on round 11.

You are due my friend! It is interesting, a buddy of mine got hired last year after 6 times I believe and told me that it came up in the interview about how persistent he was. They had every time he logged in to update his hours on the website logged lol.

DH

Learflyer
02-20-2019, 05:37 PM
Round 4?
I'm on round 11.

I have 11 as well. On one of them (about two years ago), I decided it would be a good idea to "clean up" my ICIMS page and make it neater. So I withdrew on one of the older requisitions and quickly learned that was a mistake. If they ask me in an interview why I withdrew from that particular requisition, i'll just tell them i'm married to an attorney (who is constantly teaching me organizational skills) and she thought it would be a good idea to clean it up a little. True story! :D:D

ZapBrannigan
03-23-2019, 05:34 AM
FWIW Over on the union forum theyíre speculating about being 1000 pilots overstaffed and possibility of a furlough within the next year. (In the AMFA & SWA agreement thread, starting around post #84)

Itís most likely all BS, but if you werenít flying professionally in 99/00 when the last major hiring boom was exploding, itís worth taking a cautious approach to carriers engaging in overhiring. One big black cloud force majeur event that sinks the economy will show the weakness in vulnerable carriers.

Yeah the pilot shortage will absorb a lot of the refugees in the event of a furlough, but you still donít want to be the guy forced back into the job market.

Proximity
03-23-2019, 06:18 AM
FWIW Over on the union forum they’re speculating about being 1000 pilots overstaffed and possibility of a furlough within the next year.

Okay Zap you made me look, there's 5 minutes wasted. Thanks for the reminder of why I stay away from the union forum.

It's clear that the company likes this level of staffing. They could have stopped new hire classes 1000 pilots ago if they wanted, back when you could see hundreds of unused reserves sitting each weekend but they didn't. Even with SWAPAs input on hiring (stop) and input on how to use reserves/OT effectively (stop making junk trips and assigning them to rsv) they continue. In fact, they've gotten so effective at assigning reserves junk and avoiding premium that reserve has become less palatable, even though "overstaffing" persists.

If you just fly your line, you are pretty much unaffected by the over-staffing. It's the high flyers that lack creativity that are the most affected. You just can't bid weekdays, pick up some weekend premium flying and make 150TFP these days. A bunch of people have had their cheese moved and they are very vocal about it.

If you come here I wouldn't worry about a furlough. But don't buy into what you hear about being able to make big money. Plan on making guarantee. Even on reserve, where 10-15 hours of extra used to be a given, the company has figured out how to avoid paying extra, assisted by pilots willing to bid even sub-rig trips straight.

My hope is in the next contract we negotiate based on making guarantee, not the 108TFP number thrown out in the last contract. Along with that we need better protections against reroutes. I'm happy to fly unproductive, low block, rigged trips that you see these days. However, I'm annoyed by being used as an "online reserve". We need to push for "leg change override" in the next contract where there is an expense to touching a lineholders schedule.

Let's focus on real issues (I just scratched the surface), not get sidetracked by furlough FUD.

RJSAviator76
03-23-2019, 07:11 AM
Okay Zap you made me look, there's 5 minutes wasted. Thanks for the reminder of why I stay away from the union forum.

It's clear that the company likes this level of staffing. They could have stopped new hire classes 1000 pilots ago if they wanted, back when you could see hundreds of unused reserves sitting each weekend but they didn't. Even with SWAPAs input on hiring (stop) and input on how to use reserves/OT effectively (stop making junk trips and assigning them to rsv) they continue. In fact, they've gotten so effective at assigning reserves junk and avoiding premium that reserve has become less palatable, even though "overstaffing" persists.

If you just fly your line, you are pretty much unaffected by the over-staffing. It's the high flyers that lack creativity that are the most affected. You just can't bid weekdays, pick up some weekend premium flying and make 150TFP these days. A bunch of people have had their cheese moved and they are very vocal about it.

If you come here I wouldn't worry about a furlough. But don't buy into what you hear about being able to make big money. Plan on making guarantee. Even on reserve, where 10-15 hours of extra used to be a given, the company has figured out how to avoid paying extra, assisted by pilots willing to bid even sub-rig trips straight.

My hope is in the next contract we negotiate based on making guarantee, not the 108TFP number thrown out in the last contract. Along with that we need better protections against reroutes. I'm happy to fly unproductive, low block, rigged trips that you see these days. However, I'm annoyed by being used as an "online reserve". We need to push for "leg change override" in the next contract where there is an expense to touching a lineholders schedule.

Let's focus on real issues (I just scratched the surface), not get sidetracked by furlough FUD.

^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. To. A. T.

ZapBrannigan
03-23-2019, 07:33 AM
Oh I first to admit that Iím chicken little when it comes to the prospect of furloughs. Hard to shake past experiences. But we are overstaffed and nobody seems to understand why, or why they are continuing to hire. It just something to think about.

Totally agree with budgeting to - if not guarantee - average line values. Donít plan to pick up extra because competition even for sub-rig, straight time flying is fierce right now. Great idea, by the way, to include a financial disincentive to screw with a line holderís trip in contract 2020. Hope you included that in the surveys!

Just saying that where thereís smoke thereís fire, so that is another piece of information to consider when choosing where you want to apply during this unprecedented time when many pilots often have choices of which major airline they want to go to work for!

Squallrider
03-23-2019, 03:18 PM
I think Hawaii is just the first step in expansion, they have stated many times Central America and North America are ripe for expansion. I can see us doing Canada in the next five years. Overstated depends on base, thereís always stuff in mine , might not be premium but reserve days available, 1/2/3 even 4 days at times

RckyMtHigh
03-23-2019, 03:30 PM
But we are overstaffed and nobody seems to understand why, or why they are continuing to hire. It just something to think about.

There are people in Dallas that know exactly why. They just aren't telling us. For what it's worth (nothing!) I've heard the 12500 pilots number thrown around since I started here in 2015.

If some guys not getting premium means I don't get JA'ed, well, let's just say I'm ok with that.

ZapBrannigan
03-23-2019, 04:10 PM
If some guys not getting premium means I don't get JA'ed, well, let's just say I'm ok with that.


Amen to that!



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Jeff Lebowski
03-24-2019, 05:42 AM
A couple years ago, Tom Neelon came and spoke to my new-hire class.

Someone asked Tom point-blank why Southwest was hiring so many pilots. Tom said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that part of the reason was because it saw pilots as a "strategic asset," and that it made sense to lay its hands on as many of the good ones it could before the supply dried up.

Being paranoid, I took this to mean that the company wants to brand so many of us, like cattle. Then, when the economy goes hurtling off a cliff, or oil hits $150 a barrel (or both), the company can do what every other major does and play the furlough card. Then, when things improve, they bring us back. And so on and so forth.

Seen from that point of view, there is an argument to be made for an airline having access to its own herd of pre-screened, pre-vetted pilots.

But that's probably just me being paranoid ...

coflyr
03-24-2019, 06:11 AM
http://investors.southwest.com/~/media/Files/S/Southwest-IR/2017%2010-K%20Final%20Filed%20879.pdf

Check out page 28. Lots of airplanes on order, and I think we almost always exercise options. Iím sure some of these are replacement for some older -700s, but still looks like steady growth ahead.

Smooth at FL450
03-24-2019, 08:26 AM
A couple years ago, Tom Neelon came and spoke to my new-hire class.

Someone asked Tom point-blank why Southwest was hiring so many pilots. Tom said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that part of the reason was because it saw pilots as a "strategic asset," and that it made sense to lay its hands on as many of the good ones it could before the supply dried up.

Being paranoid, I took this to mean that the company wants to brand so many of us, like cattle. Then, when the economy goes hurtling off a cliff, or oil hits $150 a barrel (or both), the company can do what every other major does and play the furlough card. Then, when things improve, they bring us back. And so on and so forth.

Seen from that point of view, there is an argument to be made for an airline having access to its own herd of pre-screened, pre-vetted pilots.

But that's probably just me being paranoid ...


That really is a paranoid way to look at it. I think what he meant was that they realize pilots are a requirement for growth (an asset to growth) and they see the pending issues in the supply of pilots a few years down the road, so they're strategically front-loading to get ahead of the curve. The more pilots we hire today, the fewer pilots available for our competition (Spirit, UAL, DAL, whoever) to hire from tomorrow. For many, loyalty goes to the first company to offer a class date, and Tom seems to know that.


Oh yeah, and red eyes are coming.

e6bpilot
03-24-2019, 09:24 AM
There are people in Dallas that know exactly why. They just aren't telling us. For what it's worth (nothing!) I've heard the 12500 pilots number thrown around since I started here in 2015.



If some guys not getting premium means I don't get JA'ed, well, let's just say I'm ok with that.



JA was a problem in need of a technology/contract solution, not more hiring.
The ability to bid double time prior to JA and/or place JA in giveaway with alerts going out to eligible bidders would have cut down quite a bit on involuntary JA. Whether you realize it or not, overstaffing hits everybody on the seniority list in pay and QOL.
We put up with a lot of dumb stuff here, but the ability to be the boss of your own schedule and paycheck makes it all worth it. Now we have a bunch of guys sitting around and trip trade/giveaway is a desert of activity, but yet we still have all the ďbadĒ parts of our contract to deal with. If I am going to be flying like a legacy airline pilot, I want to be treated and paid like one.

Grumpyaviator
03-24-2019, 09:31 AM
Almost my whole April line is in Give Away, just sayin’.
BWI FO.

Proximity
03-24-2019, 10:56 AM
JA was a problem in need of a technology/contract solution, not more hiring.
The ability to bid double time prior to JA and/or place JA in giveaway with alerts going out to eligible bidders would have cut down quite a bit on involuntary JA. Whether you realize it or not, overstaffing hits everybody on the seniority list in pay and QOL.


This. Before saying that hiring is due to increased sick calls (which is not true) and to decrease JA, the company should have tried some of the suggestions from SWAPA and the pilot group. If JA is still an issue, then hire. My prediction however is that this summer JAs will return on the FO side as upgrades balance out the FO/CA ratio. T \here really isn't a huge disincentive for the company to JA since a JA trip pays 2x or the rig, whichever is higher. Often times the extra day is just a DH back to your base, which even with DT pays less then 6.5, so you get the rig. JA should pay 2x rigs, minimum.

Profane Kahuna
03-31-2019, 08:03 AM
But don't buy into what you hear about being able to make big money. Plan on making guarantee. Even on reserve, where 10-15 hours of extra used to be a given, the company has figured out how to avoid paying extra, assisted by pilots willing to bid even sub-rig trips straight.

Iím new here but Iíve been over 100 TFP on reserve and now with a hard line Iím able to pick up extra to get over 100 TFP and then some (124 in March).

n606tw
03-31-2019, 09:01 AM
So how many they got hire so far?

SlipKid
04-02-2019, 09:25 AM
JA should pay 2x rigs, minimum.

A-frigging-men. :eek:

SlipKid
04-02-2019, 09:27 AM
I’m new here but I’ve been over 100 TFP on reserve and now with a hard line I’m able to pick up extra to get over 100 TFP and then some (124 in March).

Like Prox said......

Between lack of premium, and our wonderful, "hard won" buffer limits, it's difficult to do 140-150 tfp month, even if you're willing to work a ridiculous number of days at straight pay every month, (forget the "big money"), nowadays.

RJSAviator76
04-02-2019, 09:48 AM
Like Prox said......

Between lack of premium, and our wonderful, "hard won" buffer limits, it's difficult to do 140-150 tfp month, even if you're willing to work a ridiculous number of days at straight pay every month, (forget the "big money"), nowadays.


The game changed indeed, but some folks still manage to score... ;)

SlipKid
04-02-2019, 10:29 AM
The game changed indeed, but some folks still manage to score... ;)

Of course. It's just that it's even more hit or miss, (mostly miss) these days than it used to be.

PowerShift
04-02-2019, 06:08 PM
Been here 2 yrs. I have never seen a premium trip, and I live in base. Plan on an average of 100 TFP per month. Unless your are in the top 20% or are part of a cartel forget about premium trips.

Squallrider
04-03-2019, 07:08 AM
Been here 2 yrs. I have never seen a premium trip, and I live in base. Plan on an average of 100 TFP per month. Unless your are in the top 20% or are part of a cartel forget about premium trips.

I picked up trips from company at second year pay on my first year which is basically premium :P

4V14T0R
04-03-2019, 07:13 AM
I picked up trips from company at second year pay on my first year which is basically premium :P



How does that work? All open time picked up your first year is at year 2?


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Squallrider
04-03-2019, 07:20 AM
How does that work? All open time picked up your first year is at year 2?


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Yes but Only if itís from the company

4V14T0R
04-03-2019, 07:22 AM
Yes but Only if itís from the company



Isnít all open time from the company or are you differentiating from trades with other pilots?


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PowerShift
04-03-2019, 07:22 AM
Yes but Only if itís from the company

And only after you exceed your original TFP.

4V14T0R
04-03-2019, 07:23 AM
And only after you exceed your original TFP.



Howís that work on reserve?


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hoover
04-03-2019, 08:05 AM
As long as you're at your original tfp for the month anything you pick up from the company pays 2nd yrs rate. Not hard to do on reserve at all. You won't change your whole line to 2nd yrs pay but you can definitely nab a few days. Gotta be willing to work more though

4V14T0R
04-03-2019, 08:18 AM
As long as you're at your original tfp for the month anything you pick up from the company pays 2nd yrs rate. Not hard to do on reserve at all. You won't change your whole line to 2nd yrs pay but you can definitely nab a few days. Gotta be willing to work more though



Thanks!


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Squallrider
04-03-2019, 04:35 PM
Isnít all open time from the company or are you differentiating from trades with other pilots?


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Correct. If you pick up from a employee it doesnít count

RJSAviator76
04-03-2019, 06:21 PM
Correct. If you pick up from a employee it doesnít count

Not quite.

If a reserve pilot has the assigned trip in TTGA requiring a call to Scheduling to pick up, that trip will pay second-year rates as well because it's been run through open time even though an employee listed it.

So.. my tactic would be to bid it premium, let it go to a reserve, call Scheduling, tell them you want to Extra-Fly it, and voila - second-year pay at straight. One small caveat is if the reserve has Own preference for the trips, but the great majority do not.

Skyward
04-04-2019, 06:33 AM
As a first-year pilot, can also pick up Monthly Open Time from the company (pays 2nd year) and then ELITT later on it for a bigger or higher paying trip (stays at 2nd year pay)