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View Full Version : Career Intermission Program


cheap
10-24-2018, 10:26 AM
In case you were unaware, like I was a few months ago, there's a career intermission program (CIP) alive and well in the DoD. My experience is with the Air Force, but I believe the Navy has a similar program. The services have been doing a TERRIBLE job advertising this, though, and I only stumbled upon it because I desperately googled "Air Force hiatus."

Big picture: you can take 1 to 3 years off from active duty to do whatever you want. It was originally sold to CCs as a means for women to be pregnant (which is probably why no one knows this exists) but officially it is for members to pursue "personal or professional goals" like starting a family OR hacking a seniority number with your favorite major airline. You keep Tricare, get paid 1/15 of your monthly pay (base pay?) and hold a DD-214 while staying scrolled in the IRR. They pay to move you wherever, and when you come back to AD they pay to move you again. The debt is 2 months active duty for every 1 month on hiatus, so a minimum of an extra 2 year ADSC that runs consecutively (not concurrently) with UPT ADSCs, so it will add time to your service.

HOWEVER! If you are within 3 years of separating or retiring, you can get out now for a year, earn your seniority number before this huge hiring wave peaks, drop USERRA mil leave for up to five years, come back and finish your ADSC commitment, then return to your airline as a 3/4/5/6 year guy with thousands of line numbers behind you, have a super sweet FO schedule or maybe even be able to bid for captain somewhere junior, and have years of b-plan contributions in the bank. The b-fund contributions are like getting your own personal pilot bonus without committing to missing the hiring wave.

Caveats: you can't have an approved retirement or separation in the system to be eligible. I had an approved separation and was worried that if I cancelled it I'd get boned with a CIP denial and then have to restart the 6-month separation notification window, so I called AFPC and asked how likely it was that I'd get approved for my intermission. The major I spoke with told me "100% of officers that have applied in the past three years have been approved." I also discovered that the waiver approval authority for separation requests within six months is the local FSS/CC, another major. I cancelled my separation and applied to CIP instead.

If you want more details, search "CIP" in MyPers. They only hold boards for these 3x/year, and it takes ~7 weeks for results to get published. Approved members can then separate in as little as 12 weeks. For me, I already had my apps published since I was close to my separation date (at 18 years AD) so I just adjusted my availability date about a month sooner, but it'll be an easy guarantee to get the remaining 2 years of AD time I need for the full retirement vs struggling with sanctuary rules or fighting for IMA opportunities.


BeatNavy
10-24-2018, 02:45 PM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/100932-career-intermission-program.html

Hope it works out for you.

cheap
10-24-2018, 03:36 PM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/100932-career-intermission-program.html

Hope it works out for you.

Interesting thread. I'm surprised there was so much negativity towards this program, as I don't see a difference between this and someone taking an AGR job, a full-time IMA position or volunteering for multiple deployments under USERRA to get to retirement either. Someone exercising CIP would actually spend more time as a junior pilot with their airline before returning to finish their commitment because the airlines would get someone for at least almost an entire year, maybe more, of all the crap flying/sitting reserve.


rickair7777
10-24-2018, 04:08 PM
Interesting thread. I'm surprised there was so much negativity towards this program, as I don't see a difference between this and someone taking an AGR job, a full-time IMA position or volunteering for multiple deployments under USERRA to get to retirement either. Someone exercising CIP would actually spend more time as a junior pilot with their airline before returning to finish their commitment because the airlines would get someone for at least almost an entire year, maybe more, of all the crap flying/sitting reserve.

1. Earning an active-20 retirement is not an option for most reserves, the Army is probably the most accommodating, but the Navy WILL NOT let you go on orders if there's any chance you'll hit 20 active... only way to do that in the Navy reserve is to already be on orders and then get extended for mission-critical reasons. I've seen it and it's only been seals and one or two staff O-6's. The extension requests had to come from 3-stars, and included dialog with the CNRFC flags.

2. Most reserves don't do serial long-term orders, and get a little tired of getting flack on behalf of those who do, and those who actually abuse the system.

3. It's a choice... get out and join the airline, or stay in for O5/O6 and then join the airline. If the later, you have lower pay and seniority, but you have the retirement. This smacks of having your cake and eating it too.

4. As I mentioned in the other thread, make sure you can come back in five years. That provision will prevent most folks from getting a regular retirement.

But all that said, if it's probably legal. Not sure if the navy will grant leave for the purpose of joining the airlines, and I doubt the airlines will hire you if they realize what you're up to (the shortage might get to that point in a few years though).

BeatNavy
10-24-2018, 09:19 PM
1. Earning an active-20 retirement is not an option for most reserves, the Army is probably the most accommodating, but the Navy WILL NOT let you go on orders if there's any chance you'll hit 20 active... only way to do that in the Navy reserve is to already be on orders and then get extended for mission-critical reasons. I've seen it and it's only been seals and one or two staff O-6's. The extension requests had to come from 3-stars, and included dialog with the CNRFC flags.

2. Most reserves don't do serial long-term orders, and get a little tired of getting flack on behalf of those who do, and those who actually abuse the system.

3. It's a choice... get out and join the airline, or stay in for O5/O6 and then join the airline. If the later, you have lower pay and seniority, but you have the retirement. This smacks of having your cake and eating it too.

4. As I mentioned in the other thread, make sure you can come back in five years. That provision will prevent most folks from getting a regular retirement.

But all that said, if it's probably legal. Not sure if the navy will grant leave for the purpose of joining the airlines, and I doubt the airlines will hire you if they realize what you're up to (the shortage might get to that point in a few years though).

Itís a damn shame the navy intentionally attempts to screw guys out of a full time retirement. If a seaman is willing to do 20 full time years, no mattter whether it is consecutive or broken up in chunks of orders, they should allow it so long as the seaman is meeting the standard for retention and promotion. But intentionally not giving orders for the sole purpose of preventing a retirement is effed up. What a p!ss poor service that doesnít take care of those who served a career. Makes me wonder what they teach at that naval community college in annapolis. Half joking, but the point stands.

To the OP, youíll prob be fine with your plan, assuming you get a seniority number at a carrier you want to be at. I donít know exactly what the program entails, or what you have to disclose to your future employer, if anything, but Iím assuming youíve figured that out and it all checks.

That said, if Iím a hiring guy at XX airline and I see someone with 18 years in who is applying, Iím betting said dude will drop mil leave for a couple years early on to get a retirement. They know the deal. Not legal as a hiring consideration, and plenty of people get hired in that demographic, but Iím guessing it happens. When I went to a DAL job fair, one of the recruiters asked me if I was completely out of the military or still in the guard/res. Donít think that was legal for them to ask, but what am I going to do as an applicant. Thereís a reason they asked. If airlines catch on to this CIP program (which they will as soon as guys do it), it will likely cause further scrutiny in the future, and Iím sure they will figure out who is doing CIP. Again, may or may not affect you (you got 2 CJOs so itís worked ok so far) or anyone else thinking about this program, just a consideration. Also, you put some pretty precise identifying info here and in the other thread. These boards get looked at. Iíll leave it at that. Again though, sounds like it will work out for you, and I hope it does. Those couple years could mean big money/QOL if it works as advertised.

rickair7777
10-25-2018, 06:29 AM
It’s a damn shame the navy intentionally attempts to screw guys out of a full time retirement. If a seaman is willing to do 20 full time years, no mattter whether it is consecutive or broken up in chunks of orders, they should allow it so long as the seaman is meeting the standard for retention and promotion. But intentionally not giving orders for the sole purpose of preventing a retirement is effed up. What a p!ss poor service that doesn’t take care of those who served a career. Makes me wonder what they teach at that naval community college in annapolis. Half joking, but the point stands.


For clarity, the policy is intended to prevent traditional reservists from attaining a regular AD retirement. They do not try to prevent anyone from earning the reserve retirement.

Reason being, Navy reserve is not funded to pay for AD retirements. If a reservist slips through the cracks and gets to sanctuary (it happens), a senior officer will get fired, same as if he misplaced one million $ in cash.

Their force structure paradigm is to employ the reserves as traditional reservists, and cover all support requirements with drills, AT, and an occasional MOB. In return you can expect a RESERVE retirement at age 60, or a few years earlier. That's the deal and everybody knows it... if you really want an AD retirement than stay on AD, or become a reserve FTS. The difference with AD is you go where they tell you to, when they tell you to. With the exception of the rare invol MOB, reserves can mostly pick and choose their assignments. As a reservist I don't feel entitled to the same financial consideration as AD folks since I've been able to progress my civilian career and other financial activities in parallel with military service.

There are rare legit exceptions which I mentioned, and always a few folks trying to work the system, including one guy in my unit (he'd go far if he spent half the effort he spends scamming orders doing actual support to the command :rolleyes: ).

All that said, I think the DoD should have a consistent policy, although that would not and should not apply to the state guards. I've actually counseled a few senior enlisted and O4's who were hell-bent on getting an AD retirement to quit the Navy and join the NG, since in many states they have no problem letting reserves get the AD retirement. I just had that conversation with the aforementioned dude, but I don't think he believed me.

BeatNavy
10-25-2018, 07:25 AM
Yeah I had no idea the navy was so stingy until I flew with a couple navy dudes who finished in the reserves who told me it was basically impossible to get an active retirement. It just didnít compute based on how many AFR/ANG guys swing active retirements, I figured thereíd be no difference across services.

goinaround
10-26-2018, 12:25 PM
Yeah I had no idea the navy was so stingy until I flew with a couple navy dudes who finished in the reserves who told me it was basically impossible to get an active retirement. It just didnít compute based on how many AFR/ANG guys swing active retirements, I figured thereíd be no difference across services.

That's crazy to me. I'm an Air Guard guy and we have people getting AD retirements all the time. I mean...If you did the "active duty"...right....you should get the benefit of your 20 yrs active service. What are they going to do with the guy who bailed AD at 17 yrs and wants to be a contributing member of his/her military organization?

rickair7777
10-26-2018, 06:53 PM
That's crazy to me. I'm an Air Guard guy and we have people getting AD retirements all the time. I mean...If you did the "active duty"...right....you should get the benefit of your 20 yrs active service. What are they going to do with the guy who bailed AD at 17 yrs and wants to be a contributing member of his/her military organization?

In the Navy he will get a very large reserve retirement. At 60.

ipdanno
10-27-2018, 04:44 PM
Disclosure: This data is 10 years old.
In AFRes, the ĎSanctuaryí zone is from 18-20 years worth of Active Duty points. I imagine it is the same across all branches.
If a member gets to 17.5 years worth of AD points, the beauracracy kicks in to scrutinize any orders offered to member, except Annual Tour, ADT, and drill.

The reason isnít to deny an Active Duty retirement, because the Reserve Components donít pay for retirements. The reason is that if a member is on the right type of orders, and crosses 18 yrs AD points, the member can claim the Sanctuary protection, and stay on active status until reaching 20 yrs AD points, followed by mandatory retirement. It is those (up to) 2 years worth of days that come out of the AFRC O&M budget. Thatís what gets the O-6 fired.

In my unit, the one officer and one enlisted, who were 9/11-mobilized into the Sanctuary zone, claimed that protection, and were then transferred to Active Duty, i.e. out of the unit and out of AFRC. At 20 yrs AD points, they were each retired.

In this unit, there were also about 10 officers and 8-10 enlisted who were able to reach 20 yrs AD points, without having to claim Sanctuary protection. How, you might ask? Thank you for asking. After our one year activation, Active Air Force needed our aircraft and the crews to operate them. They offered consecutive full-time orders, eventually 12 months at a pop, to all takers.

When members approached the Sanctuary zone, they were put on the watch list. In order for AFRC to approve these individualsí orders, the member had to sign a Sanctuary Zone Protections waiver and Statement of Understanding. Basically promising to NOT claim Sanctuary while on these orders. Sign the waiver, get the Mandays. Do it enough, you climb right through the 20 yrs of AD points. After that, AFRC is not liable for any O & M funding to get you to 20 yrs points, because youíre already there, or beyond there. The member can retire and join the check a month club, or continue in the Reserves.

I have no idea if the NavRes has anything like this waiver, or if AFRC is still willing to play the game. It is truly Win-Win, because the RC will not be liable for the O & M funds, since the member signed a waiver. And the Reserve Components never fund retirements-that come out of another DoD bucket.

rickair7777
10-28-2018, 08:36 AM
Disclosure: This data is 10 years old.
In AFRes, the ‘Sanctuary’ zone is from 18-20 years worth of Active Duty points. I imagine it is the same across all branches.
If a member gets to 17.5 years worth of AD points, the beauracracy kicks in to scrutinize any orders offered to member, except Annual Tour, ADT, and drill.

The reason isn’t to deny an Active Duty retirement, because the Reserve Components don’t pay for retirements. The reason is that if a member is on the right type of orders, and crosses 18 yrs AD points, the member can claim the Sanctuary protection, and stay on active status until reaching 20 yrs AD points, followed by mandatory retirement. It is those (up to) 2 years worth of days that come out of the AFRC O&M budget. That’s what gets the O-6 fired.

In my unit, the one officer and one enlisted, who were 9/11-mobilized into the Sanctuary zone, claimed that protection, and were then transferred to Active Duty, i.e. out of the unit and out of AFRC. At 20 yrs AD points, they were each retired.

In this unit, there were also about 10 officers and 8-10 enlisted who were able to reach 20 yrs AD points, without having to claim Sanctuary protection. How, you might ask? Thank you for asking. After our one year activation, Active Air Force needed our aircraft and the crews to operate them. They offered consecutive full-time orders, eventually 12 months at a pop, to all takers.

When members approached the Sanctuary zone, they were put on the watch list. In order for AFRC to approve these individuals’ orders, the member had to sign a Sanctuary Zone Protections waiver and Statement of Understanding. Basically promising to NOT claim Sanctuary while on these orders. Sign the waiver, get the Mandays. Do it enough, you climb right through the 20 yrs of AD points. After that, AFRC is not liable for any O & M funding to get you to 20 yrs points, because you’re already there, or beyond there. The member can retire and join the check a month club, or continue in the Reserves.

I have no idea if the NavRes has anything like this waiver, or if AFRC is still willing to play the game. It is truly Win-Win, because the RC will not be liable for the O & M funds, since the member signed a waiver. And the Reserve Components never fund retirements-that come out of another DoD bucket.

Navy reserve system is similar, they start scrutinizing hard at 16 years, because if you get close to 18 your normal drills and AT can still push you over the hump and they cannot deny you that. So they'll look at how much runway you have left, which determines how much more drill/AT points you might achieve, and make decisions about discretionary orders based on the.

The Navy has no formal mechanism to transfer sanctuary reservists into a particular funding status. But like you mentioned, CNRFC will waive folks to get orders extensions, but they need to know who's paying for the last two years of AD (typically the command who's asking for the waiver, big AD commands do have discretionary funding for that sort of thing). If someone were to slip through the cracks, then CNRFC would coordinate with their AD community detailer to find a job they could do (probably not a "good" job in a nice location). Failing that, CNRFC would probably have to bring them on as staff somewhere in the reserve echelons.

I know one guy who got the extension, did his extra two years at the (overseas) HQ that needed him, and then was able to get a full-time war college instructor job. The Navy did not have to let him stick around at the point but he was able to compete for the job and I guess the AD O6 end strength was low that year.

My understanding on the retirement funding is that it does somehow come back to CNRFC in aggregate, but it's probably more of a philosophical, best practice, fiscal management kind of thing as opposed to strict accounting, since in any given year they can't predict how many reservists will become eligible for what kind of retirement.

tomgoodman
10-28-2018, 10:19 AM
Wow! Any Naval Officer who can navigate this maze should be promoted to Admiral. :D

SaltyDog
10-28-2018, 01:26 PM
Yeah I had no idea the navy was so stingy until I flew with a couple navy dudes who finished in the reserves who told me it was basically impossible to get an active retirement. It just didnít compute based on how many AFR/ANG guys swing active retirements, I figured thereíd be no difference across services.

Navy has no budget plays to work around like USAF/USAFR/ANG and USA/USAR/NG which big USAF and USA have a say. USN alone to manage USN/USNR, thus, some differences exist in staffing and budgeting mission sets. Its not punitive, its a congressional funding issue ultimately.
If USN has access to title 32 state budget process and federal congressional organization as a National Guard, may see same arrangements.
If leave active duty Navy, you know the deal. No surprises or cheap shots by the Navy IMO. I managed multiple budgets in my command tours and fought to fund our sailors to accomplish our mission. Always a shoestring. If needed a full time sailor with expertise, we went to fill the billet with an active duty qualified sailor. It was easier to manage because everyone short of dollars. For the one active duty sailor reservists to get an active duty retirement, many other reserve sailors would "pay" the bill with less drills funded and more work "without" pay. Many do extra work off the clock. Service to country does not always pay cash. (didn't consider myself a mercenary either)

cheap
10-28-2018, 07:23 PM
Good post JP.

A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.

Chillpill
10-28-2018, 08:35 PM
Good post JP.

A distinction worth mentioning: getting 20 years of "points" (or 7200 points, or 7300, or 7305 depending on who you ask) doesn't trigger an active duty retirement because AD time converts to reserve points but not the other way around. AD retirement only comes from 20 years of active duty time, which any Title 10 orders qualify for of course, and for guard/reserve guys is considered an AGR retirement (per Reserves AFPC). Big picture - points earned doing things like ALO or CAPRAP as a Cat-E reservist for points only, TR drills, etc. don't get guys any closer to their AD 20 requirement. Kinda threw a big wrench in my original plans when I discovered this; I was planning on being a Cat-E guy for five years or so to finish out but scrapped that plan when I figured out it'd only earn me a normal reserve retirement at age 60.


20x365=7300. Don't know why there is any confusion about that.

You don't necessarily need T10 orders to get AD points as some T32 orders also contribute to AD points. There are T32 AD orders galore out there if you know where to look and willing to change lane.

PME add extra points to your guard retirement but not AD. Not all points are the same, it all depends on how your orders are written. Check your PCARS for points in the AD column. And make sure the points add up correctly, most of the time it's wrong.

BTW avoid AF Reserve if possible, it's just AD lite.

cheap
10-28-2018, 08:56 PM
There's an AFI somewhere that states 360 days is a year for something... retirement calculations or points determination I think. I seent it - it's in a table.

360x20=7200

What about Feb 29th?

365 x 15 + 366 x 5 = 7305

Chillpill
10-28-2018, 10:35 PM
Here's your table.

https://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/Service-Center/Guard-Reserve-Factsheets/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/580960/regular-guard-and-reserve-retired-pay/

Still doesn't answer the question of 7200, 7300, or 7305.

But this is not cool...... "(years of service) x (2.5%) [Reduced 1% per year short of 30." So if I have 7300 points at 20 years and retire, am I only getting 40% instead of 50%?:mad:

cheap
10-30-2018, 01:13 AM
The 1% hit is only if you took Redux at 15 years, so no need to worry. Thereís a 36- series AFI that has the source info and itís written slightly better than that article but yeah, 360/yr is out there.

rickair7777
10-30-2018, 07:13 AM
Here's what's confusing about points... it's doesn't flow the same in both directions.

A reservist gets a pro-rated year towards calculation of the retirement multiplier based on 360 points per year. So he actually gets a year's worth of multiplier money for slightly less than a calendar year's worth of points. Kind of like you also get 15 annual points for breathing.

But regular active-duty service (of any sort other than drills) counts towards your point total on a DAY FOR DAY BASIS. So an AD member going reserve after exactly ten years will get 10 x 365 = 3650 points, plus a couple-three extra points for the leap years.

So at that moment in time his exactly ten years of AD would translate to a retirement multiplier of 3652/7200 = .507222, slightly more than ten calendar years worth.


So nobodies getting hosed, either way. The 360 points per multiplier year comes from title ten, so it should not be subject to peculiar service-specific policies.

ipdanno
10-30-2018, 12:28 PM
In AFRC, to qualify for an AD retirement (technically it is referred to as an AGR retirement), one needs to accrue 7305 AD points. Reserve points donít help you reach that number, but upon reaching the Active retirement threshold, all Reserve points are added to your total to determine your retirement check.

rickair7777
10-30-2018, 03:50 PM
In AFRC, to qualify for an AD retirement (technically it is referred to as an AGR retirement), one needs to accrue 7305 AD points. Reserve points donít help you reach that number, but upon reaching the Active retirement threshold, all Reserve points are added to your total to determine your retirement check.

That's to *qualify* for an *AD* retirement.

The 7200 number is used to determine the *value* of a *reserve* retirement.

ItnStln
10-30-2018, 05:11 PM
Do Army National Guard ADOS orders count towards an active duty retirement or not?

cheap
01-14-2019, 01:01 PM
Hey, someone wrote an article about it!

https://community.thepilotnetwork.org/posts/afpcs-best-kept-secret

Hank Burley
01-14-2019, 05:53 PM
Hey, someone wrote an article about it!

https://community.thepilotnetwork.org/posts/afpcs-best-kept-secret

Iíve always wondered why an airline would hire somebody doing this program? Whatís in it for them? Unless the applicant lies?

cheap
01-14-2019, 05:59 PM
Iíve always wondered why an airline would hire somebody doing this program? Whatís in it for them? Unless the applicant lies?

Lies about what, exactly? What kind of questions do you think the interview teams are asking about military obligations?

Hank Burley
01-14-2019, 06:15 PM
Lies about what, exactly? What kind of questions do you think the interview teams are asking about military obligations?

Lies about being in this program, Iím sure someone could conveniently leave out the service obligation with AF if they wanted to? I just donít understand why would an airline hire someone who is going to go back On mil leave in a couple years?. Especially when there are plenty of non-service committed people getting out of the military.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 06:20 PM
Lies about being in this program, there is a service obligation with the AF that incurs it when you accept it. Why would an airline hire someone who is going to go back On mil leave in a couple years?. Especially when there are plenty of non-service committed people getting out of the military.

USERRA was not written to account for "snap back" programs like this one.

But I believe the way USERRA is written, they would be protected. I'm sure airlines would consider this an "over the top" abuse, and would find any excuse to not hire someone if they knew about it.

Or maybe if they're really concerned about the pilot shortage, they might go ahead and "lock in" a good candidate... almost no way he'd go anywhere else with close to ten years seniority.

Hank Burley
01-14-2019, 06:26 PM
USERRA was not written to account for "snap back" programs like this one.

But I believe the way USERRA is written, they would be protected. I'm sure airlines would consider this an "over the top" abuse, and would find any excuse to not hire someone if they knew about it.

Or maybe if they're really concerned about the pilot shortage, they might go ahead and "lock in" a good candidate... almost no way he'd go anywhere else with close to ten years seniority.

I know plenty of well qualified guys in the Guard that are DSGís and separating active duty guys still waiting on a call. I donít think the legacies are at a point where they need to ďlock inĒ applicants that they fear they will miss out on later. But if somebody can make this work, then good for them.

cheap
01-14-2019, 06:33 PM
Your mileage may vary, but it seems to me interview boards avoid asking questions about mil obligations for fear of legal liability if they didn't hire someone protected by USERRA rules, even if that wasn't the reason they didn't offer a candidate a job. The airlines seem gunshy from discriminating against a candidate for military service obligations (or the risk of appearing to do so). Again, YMMV, so you do you but the program is out there and a good option for some people.

Hank Burley
01-14-2019, 07:10 PM
I would caution anyone within 3 years of retirement from actually doing this. There is no guarantee that you will get hired or even interviewed by a major especially if they know you are out on the CIP or because you donít have enough currency. You may incur a service obligation that further delays your seniority number if no one picks you up during the CIP period.

rickair7777
01-14-2019, 08:39 PM
Your mileage may vary, but it seems to me interview boards avoid asking questions about mil obligations for fear of legal liability if they didn't hire someone protected by USERRA rules, even if that wasn't the reason they didn't offer a candidate a job. The airlines seem gunshy from discriminating against a candidate for military service obligations (or the risk of appearing to do so). Again, YMMV, so you do you but the program is out there and a good option for some people.

Yes, but they can certainly try to tease that info out of your app and resume. You might be able to hide CIP status, since unlike a guard/reserve unit it's not really a current employer you have to list.

DD214 might give that away, I imagine there's some indicator there.

Wheelsoff
01-18-2019, 03:32 AM
USERRA was not written to account for "snap back" programs like this one.

But I believe the way USERRA is written, they would be protected. I'm sure airlines would consider this an "over the top" abuse, and would find any excuse to not hire someone if they knew about it.

Or maybe if they're really concerned about the pilot shortage, they might go ahead and "lock in" a good candidate... almost no way he'd go anywhere else with close to ten years seniority.

Bingo. Advocating the CIP for the purpose of getting hired at a major/legacy and then bailing to AD again is terrible advice in my opinion.

The airlines arenít dumb and have seen this act before...for example, for a while a certain legacy wouldnít touch any applicants with a 39.5 ft pole that were associated with a few specific guard/reserve units, because dudes from those units were abusing USERRA. Of course, now thereís a lawsuit against them for it, but still, why jeopardize it and screw all your buddies behind you who have any mil stink on them?

C17B74
02-13-2019, 12:31 PM
ďThe Air Force Career Intermission Program may be your way to manage short-term conflicts between service and self, enabling the Air Force to retain valuable talent by providing career flexibility to attend to personal and professional needs without having to choose one over the other.Ē - AFPC

ďThe airlines arenít dumb and have seen this act before...Ē - Wheelsoff

Airlines are NOT dumb, in fact several of them met with our AD, AFRC and our ANG leaders a couple of times 2013-2014. Having been on the perimeter as data mining support, my Bosses sat across from them and they had specific questions... and possible solutions...

They brought their schedules to compare/contrast, etc. - without getting specific, it was a fact gathering mission and we had the data to answer some really detailed questions regarding units/personnel.

Afterwards, here are just a few ideas thrown around to assist both parties:
(No specific order of precedence/it was a think tank spit balling session with an agenda)

Would it be possible for AGRs to have the option to fly just a few weeks every qtr for the airlines?

Pros - Opportunity for the member to gain a line number and serve, Greater Airline accessibility vs long term pure AGR, keeps both sides current/qualified, keep benefits and it provides a cleaner transition from blue to gray just to name a few.

Cons - Total Force calculations, Over-Complicated budgeting with pay stop/start issues, retirement projections fluctuating but trackable and the legal aspects of it all, etc. Units would have a 25-35% part-time 65-75% full-time force adding scheduling issues vs 24/7 on tap.
We already have a designated part-time force.

Can Technician (Mil-Tech GS employees/ARTS) do the same despite not being covered by USERRA overall and sustain a line number. Easier/Harder? LWOP - Leave Without Pay, etc seemed more palatable.

Note: Most airlines require resignation if you take a Tech job and I know of one that doesnít and another that OKíd my friends AGR tour til retirement well beyond the 5 year limit.

*Will there be oversight on the above if abused?

They asked whether a list could be drawn regarding hard chargers that were being groomed for higher echelons of command in order to better support their longer terms of absence. = non-starter due to favoritism, cronyism, nepotism whatever. Answer was already in place as ďUSERRA exempt orders...Ē

Topic of ďUSERRA exemptĒ orders and the ability to scrutinize those that are truly mission critical; as a result most stat tour orders rescinded ďUSERRA exemptĒ as of May 2015... Many pilots had to return to the fold and others could not plan on this any longer. Very successful move on their part.

ďenabling the AIRLINES to retain valuable talent by providing career flexibility to support military service needs without having to choose one over the other.Ē - my plagiarism / Kind of interchangeable with AFPC definition donít you think.

Overall, you can ascertain this CIP program is a much easier way for the AF to retain some very experienced folks who were on the fence/punching out/going RC (Reserve Component). The airlines gain the mil pilot early, acclimate them for awhile and count on their return and not departing the fix due to higher seniority. Several of my friends have jumped across the lines of the top 5 when the better deal for them called. Some during training or shortly thereafter and one bud bounced to his third to meet his expectations.

Granted, you can see both sides of the equation and the airlines are running a business; therefore, many will see this as an unfair practice whether on this side of the interview table or the other, mil or not mil.

While I did not use this method, I believe I witnessed where/how this chicken was hatched and how the majors initiated contact followed by invites from the DoD entities. I have been wrong before, but the timelines and discussion topics are all too familiar.

rickair7777
02-13-2019, 02:33 PM
IMO the services need to keep an arms-length approach to airlines, and vice versa. Creating special "have your cake and eat it too" programs for pilots is almost ludicrous. I wouldn't blame the airlines, but I expect more of the government.

There are hundreds of thousands of non-pilot reservists who don't get special employment considerations beyond USERRA.

Pilots aren't that special.

Airlines could pay for training and provide viable career pathways. Problem solved.

The mil needs to bake QOL into it's system. You can suck it up for a short war, but not for 20-30 years.

cheap
02-13-2019, 07:27 PM
I think we get it, rickair, you donít like this program. It isnít limited to just pilots, however, anyone in the service is allowed to apply and take advantage of this. While you obviously arenít on board it is an awesome opportunity to have the cake and eat it for a those who are lucky enough to be at a point in their careers where they can jump in to the majors a few years earlier than their indentured servitude or retirement carrot would have allowed (to avoid being on the back side of the hiring power curve). The services get to squeeze another quart of blood or two out of us as well, which is a win for everyone else.

This was absolutely the right choice for me and my family, and I would definitely make the same choice again if I had to without batting an eye.

C17B74
02-13-2019, 10:06 PM
Bottom Line:
Airlines initiated first contact from where we sat. Maybe one of ours code-called them? Hmmm.

Maybe the government should keep at arms length - is this a violation of some sort in assisting/supporting a business under no contractual bid or otherwise? / I am no lawyer obviously.

*CIP seems across the board, pilot or not, so that was executed correctly whether agreed upon or not.

Kind of like having to pay for your ďflight bootsĒ now... Non-flyer highlights they paid for the same type of boots available - why were they categorized as pro-gear and free for the flyers? Everyone should pay, officer wise at least. I get the argument this day and age vs uniform requirements were different back in the day. Unsure about the enlisted, but I believe they should NOT pay period - thatís me and it may already be covered in their uniform allowance I hope.

Regarding all these programs (common sense or not, unfair or not, like them or not) itís still there for the warfighter as an opportunity.
Until your letters to congressman/senators are heard, cases presented to your bosses are acknowledged, program abuse or eventually the cycle shifts as always and the budget $$$ declines to impact / administration changeover - it will remain.

For the war fighting commander itís a hair pulling event Iím sure: deployments, training, hiring/end strength reports, etc. Probably why AFPC shutdown those trying to avoid 365 orders when they dropped using retirement orders and separation requests several years back. Now your requested paperwork must be stamped approved at some stage prior to any 365 drop.

Overall, the Bureaucracy is astounding and too complicated for me to ever understand. Heck, there were more ways to get paid (16 if I recall, 9 I can remember now sitting here in China lackadaisically) in the Guard than C130 variants (13 at one time). We have our messes donít we.

I expect(ed) more from the government as well in many ways Sir Rickair, but after those 24 yrs I learned all the government ever does is manage our expectations as they see fit.Ē We do/did try our best to mitigate the constant ďnew-normal.Ē

*USAF problem. 11F (Fighters) and 11M (Mobility) in dire straights experience wise. 11Fís departing quicker. Stoploss is an answer, but NOT the right answer from my meager point of view. ANG wise, it was getting so bad in the tanker community that their WG/CC & OG council briefed my team in 2014 that a couple of units were holding their AGR commitments to the end vs letting them resign for greener pastures upon being hired. Hopefully that dive has been rectified with new blood desiring gainful employment vs Guard Bumming which worked for me when flying was phat.

In the end, shoot for the opportunity presented. Remember, whether itís CIP/Stat Tours/alternate deployments/Early Retirement Redux /ANG/AFRC/VA stuff/all orders, etc. - you throw the darts on whatever it may be and they determine what sticks. Commanders or program managers/AFPC flesh peddlers have the final say, itís up to them hence the extra dollar. You never make the shot you never take.

rickair7777
02-14-2019, 07:01 AM
For clarity, I was not complaining about CIP per se, but rather the USAF conspiring with airlines to manage the comings and goings of pilots.

CIP only provides a windfall for pilots or other unionized, seniority-based jobs like possibly truck drivers.

Most folks who take a white-collar job while on CIP will not return to increased pay and quality of life accumulated in their years of absence to finish the mil commitment/retirement. They'll be lucky to return to the same job at all.

SaltyDog
02-14-2019, 07:18 AM
Agree with C17B74,
Airline management teams constantly talking with DOD decision makers on all things USERRA and staffing. They attempt to work solutions both can make work for same human resource. This is only one conversation industry and DOD have had on staffing. Would guess some airlines agreed to move with DOD in this manner.
Employers also work to amend USERRA to employer advantage.
Times we live.

cheap
02-15-2019, 12:27 AM
For clarity, I was not complaining about CIP per se, but rather the USAF conspiring with airlines to manage the comings and goings of pilots.



CIP only provides a windfall for pilots or other unionized, seniority-based jobs like possibly truck drivers.



Most folks who take a white-collar job while on CIP will not return to increased pay and quality of life accumulated in their years of absence to finish the mil commitment/retirement. They'll be lucky to return to the same job at all.



I see a huge opportunity for airmen to utilize CIP to attend school full time in order to pursue a commission after their return, but didnít bother mentioning that as itís outside the scope of relevance for APC readers. Iíve got a buddy that is in CIP now growing his crash pad business, trying to generate some residual income for the rest of his career. It could be good for someone that knows theyíre going to stick with it until retirement but needs to care for a dying family member now or wants to be a stay-at-home parent the last few years before their kid is in school full time (or doesnít want to be pregnant or nursing while on active duty).

There are windfalls to be had for all kinds of scenarios, and itís nice that we at least have the option. FWIW, I also applied to TERA a few years back (but was denied, some BS about not being over 15 years of ACTIVE time even though I was over 15 of service, I guess beggars can be choosers) and milked my GI Bill for ~$70k - Iím all for working the system within the limits theyíll allow! But yes this is especially ripe for pilots now considering the hiring environment and USERRA protections.

I really donít see any danger to USERRA for anyone else from CIP usage if Guard/reserve guys ďgetting taggedĒ (volunteering) for orders hadnít already, especially with voluntary furlough rolling into USERRA protections at recall earning regular ARC dudes active duty retirements with 10+ years of airline hiatus within the last decade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SaltyDog
02-15-2019, 12:53 PM
My comment regarding whether an employee is on voluntary or involuntary orders away from an employer is moot. The employee truly only volunteered freely once; When they joined the service component they are presently serving.

cheap
04-30-2019, 08:19 AM
Follow up:

CIP continues to be awesome and the folks in AFPC that manage this have blown me away with their customer service. My airline has been great as well and I am confident they wouldn't object to my participation any more than they'd object to a Guard/Reserve member's normal participation. I'm on the line now and halfway through consolidation.

I requested early return to the AF [from the 1-star] and it was approved, so I'll be doing a little less than a full year. This is a big win for me since I don't need to do a full two years back on active duty to meet some other goals and the timing is going to work out great with the arrival of my new baby girl and my wife's return to the workplace. I've got one month of UPT commitment left so technically my commitment will end in FY2020, and if there's a one or two year AvB available I may try to double dip that with my CIP ADSC.

Between my VA disability, company paycheck and company retirement contributions, it hasn't been much of a pay cut.

I'm working on getting my next assignment now. From my brief interactions with the functional, he's very on board with CIP and has asked me to continue to spread the word. I looked into ROTC since their RSAP rules have changed but my timing isn't going to work out very well and there's still that OTS **** sandwich in the ROTC assignment mix. In lieu of that I'm trying to take an assignment that will let me keep my wife near her family, otherwise it'll be back to my MWS. Even with only ~2 years of retainability and a requal obligation the functional says it's still worth it; desperate for IP MWS bodies as always. I'll notify the company of mil leave as soon as I have orders in hand, which will likely be several months before I have to leave.



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