Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Ifly4u2c
10-27-2018, 07:35 AM
I am an ATP, currently at around 2400TT, flying a Galaxy (G-200) in the NY area ( TEB, HPN, MMU, FRG ) making 65k with a scheduled 20k increase in the next few months. Due to many factor ( one of them salary, and lack of a set schedule ) I am looking at the next step. Have over 1300 hours in jets, EMB505 and G200, which about 300 are PIC.

wondering what you would do if you where in my shoes. Stay where I am, or maybe move to FlexJet, XO Jets or even try my luck at Netjets.

I live 30 Min from TEB, I am looking for stability and a job to keep me happy for a good while. I don't care much about upgrade, I care about money, having a possibility of making some serious soft money, is a plus.

TIA


PerfInit
10-27-2018, 07:47 AM
What is your ultimate goal? Major/ Legacy? Turbine PIC is king. Stay where you are and embrace the suck till you get at least 1000TPIC. Try to become a Check Pilot with your company to enhance your resume. And do some volunteer work on your days off.
If QOL is more important, then perhaps NetJets or a Regional that has bases near you (many choices) might work better.

Ifly4u2c
10-27-2018, 07:53 AM
my goal is to be happy at what i do, that being said I don't think the routes from point A to point B, then back to point A, over and over again of regionals or major will get me as excited as not knowing where you are going next. Staying in the Fractional, 135 world is my goal.


PerfInit
10-27-2018, 07:58 AM
Sounds good, I agree with you. QOL and employee benefits beats everything else IMHO. Please just remember (repeat to yourself often) : “There is no PERFECT JOB in aviation”.

Smooth at FL450
10-27-2018, 08:00 AM
my goal is to be happy at what i do, that being said I don't think the routes from point A to point B, then back to point A, over and over again of regionals or major will get me as excited as not knowing where you are going next. Staying in the Fractional, 135 world is my goal.


You may quickly find that the excitement of a 15% contribution to your 401k regardless of how little you put in will far outweigh the "fun" of a new airport. If your goal is to make money, there's only 1 real answer.

wrxpilot
10-27-2018, 08:03 AM
my goal is to be happy at what i do, that being said I don't think the routes from point A to point B, then back to point A, over and over again of regionals or major will get me as excited as not knowing where you are going next. Staying in the Fractional, 135 world is my goal.

I actually saw a lot more variety at my regional than I did as a charter and corporate pilot. The only regret I have about my career path is that I didn’t go to the airlines sooner. If I was you, I would make working at one of the big six a priority.

How old are you, and do you have a 4 year degree?

Ifly4u2c
10-27-2018, 08:12 AM
I actually saw a lot more variety at my regional than I did as a charter and corporate pilot. The only regret I have about my career path is that I didnít go to the airlines sooner. If I was you, I would make working at one of the big six a priority.

How old are you, and do you have a 4 year degree?


I don't have a 4 year degree, and i am 33 y/o.

Can't afford the initial pay cut to go to the regionals now from 65K with free health benefits to +/-50K. NY area is expensive.

metro3
10-27-2018, 08:36 AM
Hi,

I sent you a PM.

Roger

Jeff Lebowski
10-27-2018, 08:43 AM
I don't have a 4 year degree, and i am 33 y/o.

Can't afford the initial pay cut to go to the regionals now from 65K with free health benefits to +/-50K. NY area is expensive.

If you insist on remaining in the NY area you've pared down your flying options by about 80%. And if you insist on plunging forward in this industry without a four-year then you've whittled that number down even further.

Everybody has their own priorities and goals in life. But the older you get the more you'll start looking at what 121 guys earn versus what you'll earn sticking it out in the 135 world. You'll look at how little pilots at the big 6 work compared to you and your colleagues to bring home pay and benefits you can only dream about. And at some point retirement will begin to loom large on your list of priorities.

Continuing in this industry without a 4-year and without being willing to go where the jobs are is a huge risk. It leaves you at the mercy of companies that will exploit you because they know you don't have the option of taking your skills elsewhere.

Caveat emptor.

Smooth at FL450
10-27-2018, 10:15 AM
Continuing in this industry without a 4-year and without being willing to go where the jobs are is a huge risk. It leaves you at the mercy of companies that will exploit you because they know you don't have the option of taking your skills elsewhere.




This!!! The guys I know who are stuck in their current job while trying desperately to get out all have one thing in common...no 4-year degree. And I don't see that requirement changing any time soon as the airlines are partnering up with university aviation programs. They're clearly signaling their intent to keep that requirement.

wrxpilot
10-27-2018, 12:02 PM
I don't have a 4 year degree, and i am 33 y/o.

Can't afford the initial pay cut to go to the regionals now from 65K with free health benefits to +/-50K. NY area is expensive.

I was your age when I left corporate to work for the regionals. I’m now at a major airline where I’m going to make close to $250k a year in my 2nd year (as an FO), while working less than half the month with awesome benefits. I’ll also retire with a pension and 401k. You’ll do yourself a favor if you take the long view with your career.

GeeWizDriver
10-27-2018, 09:06 PM
Who should you apply to?

EVERYBODY that even remotely interests you.

IF you get the interview and IF you get the job offer, you can always say NO.

Donít place artifical limits on your job search.

Good luck.

Macjet
10-27-2018, 09:09 PM
my goal is to be happy at what i do, that being said I don't think the routes from point A to point B, then back to point A, over and over again of regionals or major will get me as excited as not knowing where you are going next. Staying in the Fractional, 135 world is my goal.

Lol. I love this stuff. I'd rather fly to Lawrence, KS on a midnight pop-up trip for pennines than make a $250K/year with 18 days off a month and a few million in my 401.

Someone has to shoot for the fat chicks at the bar. Glad it's you bro!

flyskisail
10-28-2018, 04:44 AM
Lol. I love this stuff. I'd rather fly to Lawrence, KS on a midnight pop-up trip for pennines than make a $250K/year with 18 days off a month and a few million in my 401.

Someone has to shoot for the fat chicks at the bar. Glad it's you bro!

Awesome, we're so happy for you. Again, instead of putting people down and their choices, if you have something constructive or helpful to add, add it. If not, go check your bank balances. You've earned it and obviously really care about it.

flyskisail
10-28-2018, 04:44 AM
Who should you apply to?

EVERYBODY that even remotely interests you.

IF you get the interview and IF you get the job offer, you can always say NO.

Donít place artifical limits on your job search.

Good luck.

100% Agreed.

OhSnapAF
10-28-2018, 04:56 AM
my goal is to be happy at what i do, that being said I don't think the routes from point A to point B, then back to point A, over and over again of regionals or major will get me as excited as not knowing where you are going next. Staying in the Fractional, 135 world is my goal.

So happiness is flying to random airports?

I’ll give you some advice. Once the allure of not knowing where you are going wears off, you will just look at your paycheck and days off like everyone else in this industry, and if you are at a place like NJA instead of an airline, you will become depressed. Take it from somebody who lived it. My whole career was 91/135 before I went to a major and I will never go back, ever. I’ll go practice as a sommelier if crap hits the fan economically. Right now from a financial standpoint I am saving/investing to retire at 60 and be financially set up. Whether that happens or not, I can tell you I won’t be one of the guys at 65 knocking on NetJets door begging for more cash to go fly to random airports.

This is a job now, you can very much enjoy an airline job. A regional is no more a career destination than a place like NetJets or XO. They are very similar in many ways except NetJets is more set up for people to spend long term there.

Sit down and do the math, numbers don’t lie. Historically on APC there have been several NetJets pilots they try and sell their own position (15+ year captain they extends several days a month) to make it seem like anyone can go there and expect a buttload of money right off the bat and it’s simoly not true. The math on career earnings even over a 20 year period, are actually laughable even compared to places like Spirit and Allegiant. If you can make it to a career airline, you are talking million of dollars more in total earnings than the top fractional. Forget XO and WU etc, even when you look at more cereer focused companies like NetJets, the money you leave on the table just so you can say you got to fly into Toothlessville Arkansas in a private jet is pretty stupid. This is a job for you, not a hobby correct? Go travel with all the time off you have once you work at an airline, and your mortgage company doesn’t take payment in the form of all the cool little airports you flew into...

Oh and I’ll add, I’m the happiest I’ve ever been career wise and it’s not just the money, it’s the lack of stress during work. NJA is an emotional and physical rollercoaster that cuts to your core after a while. The job beats you down to the point in which I don’t know how people plan on doing it for 40 years.

David Puddy
10-28-2018, 05:28 AM
I have a few remaining friends at Netjets and most are exhausted during and after their tours - max flying and minimum rest. True that the quality of the equipment at Netjets has improved, but who cares what you fly (hopefully not the even tighter version of the Netjets Phenom with its cropped space up front) if you are on your 5th leg of the day? Pilots fatigue out every day. Regarding XOJet, starting pay seems a bit low but it sounds like you can earn more money through FBO points, etc. XOJet crews seem to be pretty positive when I have talked to them on the road.

Certainly apply to all of your choices if you are hell-bent on the fractionals/135. All of your choices are bleeding Pilots to the airlines. Two Netjets friends recently left for SWA.

That said, if I were you I would apply to a Legacy flow-through regional (Envoy, Endeavor and Commutair have big NYC footprints). LCCs like SWA, Spirit and JB are all hiring and offer good career options too. Friend of mine recently left a part 91 job to fly the E175 at Republic and he loves it. Money is decent (all regionals are paying more to fill open seats) and his QOL has improved.

Good luck!

DenVa
10-28-2018, 07:03 AM
NYC? Fogettaboutit! That is a junior base for airlines that have one there.

My advice...go to a regional for the 121 time. Start networking and keep in touch with the captains that are leaving. Try to get hired by United, as their retirement wave starts later. You'll be Newark based within a year. Fly widebodies for close to 30 yrs.

No frac can come close to the amount of retirement and time off you would have.

You're a pilot, so you think flying to little airports is awesome. I get it. Take the money you make above the fractional pilots, buy an RV, and fly it during all the time off you have while they are working.

No disrespect to any fractional pilots, but they work harder, longer, for less pay on average. How do I know? I lived it!

su2099
10-29-2018, 11:28 AM
The long days get so old at NJA especially when most duty days were 10-13hrs/day. This is one reason why Iím glad I left and went to the majors. Even if they get a pay raise down the road, the QOL still wonít compare to working for a major and living in base. My 2 cents

OhSnapAF
10-29-2018, 12:02 PM
The long days get so old at NJA especially when most duty days were 10-13hrs/day. This is one reason why Iím glad I left and went to the majors. Even if they get a pay raise down the road, the QOL still wonít compare to working for a major and living in base. My 2 cents

They will never make enough money to compare to a major.

The selling point is getting to live in BFE (I guess).

tm602
10-29-2018, 12:06 PM
They will never make enough money to compare to a major.

The selling point is getting to live in BFE (I guess).

Well they can sure as hell improve the long days and short nights.

FNGFO
10-29-2018, 12:25 PM
So happiness is flying to random airports?

Iíll give you some advice. Once the allure of not knowing where you are going wears off, you will just look at your paycheck and days off like everyone else in this industry, and if you are at a place like NJA instead of an airline, you will become depressed. Take it from somebody who lived it. My whole career was 91/135 before I went to a major and I will never go back, ever. Iíll go practice as a sommelier if crap hits the fan economically. Right now from a financial standpoint I am saving/investing to retire at 60 and be financially set up. Whether that happens or not, I can tell you I wonít be one of the guys at 65 knocking on NetJets door begging for more cash to go fly to random airports.

This is a job now, you can very much enjoy an airline job. A regional is no more a career destination than a place like NetJets or XO. They are very similar in many ways except NetJets is more set up for people to spend long term there.

Sit down and do the math, numbers donít lie. Historically on APC there have been several NetJets pilots they try and sell their own position (15+ year captain they extends several days a month) to make it seem like anyone can go there and expect a buttload of money right off the bat and itís simoly not true. The math on career earnings even over a 20 year period, are actually laughable even compared to places like Spirit and Allegiant. If you can make it to a career airline, you are talking million of dollars more in total earnings than the top fractional. Forget XO and WU etc, even when you look at more cereer focused companies like NetJets, the money you leave on the table just so you can say you got to fly into Toothlessville Arkansas in a private jet is pretty stupid. This is a job for you, not a hobby correct? Go travel with all the time off you have once you work at an airline, and your mortgage company doesnít take payment in the form of all the cool little airports you flew into...

Oh and Iíll add, Iím the happiest Iíve ever been career wise and itís not just the money, itís the lack of stress during work. NJA is an emotional and physical rollercoaster that cuts to your core after a while. The job beats you down to the point in which I donít know how people plan on doing it for 40 years.

Every word of this. Youíll still spend the majority of your time taking people from NY/NE to Florida for all the talk of new airports and places at a fractional, work a lot harder and get paid a lot less.

They were good places to hang out for the lost decade, but I canít name a single person whoís left that world for the majors that is pining to go back.

NewGuy01
10-29-2018, 12:33 PM
Iíll never forget my first 121 walk around after 15 years of 91/135. There were a dozen people doing everything I used to do on my own, generally. Just that in and of itself makes the switch to 121 worth it at least for me.

To each their own and all but I wonít miss getting yelled at by the PAX because I went to RIL instead of ASE. Even though I still managed to coordinate ground transportation that was waiting plane side.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GeeWizDriver
10-29-2018, 02:00 PM
Iíll never forget my first 121 walk around after 15 years of 91/135. There were a dozen people doing everything I used to do on my own, generally. Just that in and of itself makes the switch to 121 worth it at least for me.

To each their own and all but I wonít miss getting yelled at by the PAX because I went to RIL instead of ASE. Even though I still managed to coordinate ground transportation that was waiting plane side.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Charmagne has bailed me out more than once....

OhSnapAF
10-29-2018, 04:05 PM
Well they can sure as hell improve the long days and short nights.

NJA canít afford it. They are doing more with less, and unless the FAA makes a change that forces their hand, management wonít budge. And that gutless union wonít put a hard stance for major QOL improvements either.

PW535A
10-29-2018, 05:52 PM
If you really want to stay in the 91/135 world, I'd go with NetJets for the simple reason that they have a defined set of work rules and pay with a Collective Bargaining Agreement. They are the only one with a Union which may not mean anything to you if you've never had one but it is like having an insurance policy. If something goes wrong, they've got your back. Also, you aren't on call. When you are off- you are off and not required to be contactable.

Packrat
10-30-2018, 03:55 AM
Unions don't always have your back.

chesty
10-30-2018, 04:34 AM
Unions don't always have your back.

Well KR, BS and RH will NEVER have your back.

Starchkr
10-30-2018, 07:03 AM
Well KR, BS and RH will NEVER have your back.

Even if they wanted to, they can only do so much.

FNGFO
10-30-2018, 07:19 AM
Unions don't always have your back.

They also donít fire you for posting on a message board, arbitrarily decide not to pay your bonus, decrease your retirement or throw away the seniority system.

Theyíre imperfect, necessary evils in aviation, but theyíre very nice to have when you need them, and if you need one and donít have one then itís too late to get one.

OhSnapAF
10-30-2018, 07:22 AM
Unions don't always have your back.

True, but they also back people that should be canned without question. Saw it at NJA often, there were so many people that lacked any moral character and were a blatant danger to society and the workplace. Some even given multiple warnings after workplace incidents and still allowed to have a job.

DenVa
10-30-2018, 07:25 AM
And that gutless union wonít put a hard stance for major QOL improvements either.

Ah, another pilot uses the word "union" when they should use "pilots."

OhSnapAF
10-30-2018, 11:03 AM
Ah, another pilot uses the word "union" when they should use "pilots."

I get what you are saying, and I agree 100% that pilots are responsible for the contract they have. However, I watched it at NetJets first hand. The union asked the questions on what they should go after. For the most part, the negotiating committee went after the hard points THEY all thought were the big ticket items. Essentially, they went strictly after pay (which fell short btw) and ignored lots of other little things on paper, but would have been big in QOL. The surveys were worded specifically to address only key issues they had decided on, and not really listening to the pilot group.

That being said, 3 out of 4 pilots tucked it between their legs and voted yes. It is amazing too, in the crew lounges across America, I could never find anyone that voted yes to actually have a discussion with them to try and figure out why (everyone has their reasons for voting yes or no) and yet 75% of the voting populous, voted yes.

My issue is that when the union sends a survey out asking if the color they see is either A: black or B: white, there is no spot to click grey or any other color, so you gotta pick one of their answers.

jtf560
11-03-2018, 10:23 AM
I can't imagine that your current job will work you nearly as hard as any of the places you are considering. I'd have never chosen NetJets back in the day if I knew what I know now. You might not fly all that many hours at fractional, but it is the whipping you take from long duty days, short overnights, and the body clock beatdowns from starting early and late and then early again, etc.

That said, as much as most complain and slag on NetJets, it can be a good job if you can stay away from the negativity that surrounds you. No fault fatigue language and refusing to fly broken airplanes can make it much better, but most just complain and press on (fools). It is also much better in the Global or Gulfstream as far as quality of life go- almost nobody tries to leave from these fleats so those who slag on the company have no first hand experience how good it can be for those who are senior enough to get it. My personal situation makes it the best choice for me to stay, but I'd imagine that the majority would be better served at the airlines of they can get hired. I know at least 2 NJA SICs who were hired at Alaska Airlines without college degrees. Good luck whatever you decide.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Guard
11-05-2018, 03:52 PM
I am an ATP, currently at around 2400TT, flying a Galaxy (G-200) in the NY area ( TEB, HPN, MMU, FRG ) making 65k with a scheduled 20k increase in the next few months. Due to many factor ( one of them salary, and lack of a set schedule ) I am looking at the next step. Have over 1300 hours in jets, EMB505 and G200, which about 300 are PIC.

wondering what you would do if you where in my shoes. Stay where I am, or maybe move to FlexJet, XO Jets or even try my luck at Netjets.

I live 30 Min from TEB, I am looking for stability and a job to keep me happy for a good while. I don't care much about upgrade, I care about money, having a possibility of making some serious soft money, is a plus.

TIA

Netjets seems pretty cool, have never been at a company that will pay all this insurance for nothing, if LTD fails they will step in and pay it at 60% themselves. No cost life insurance, no cost healthcare, Dental (Braces) and Vision. No one is doing that, that's a $1100 a month package at Delta. If they are a little under in pay they are making up in benefits and Berkshire just made $7 Billion in the third quarter so they got the legs!

Halon1211
11-07-2018, 08:17 PM
Is the APC page on FlexJet pretty accurate? It shows most junior captain hired in 2006. I know a guy that has been there for almost two years and says he ďcloseĒ to upgrade. Also he claims that top Captains at Flex Jet makes 280-300K per year, however that math didnít seem to add up on Flex Jets APC Page.

NewGuy01
11-08-2018, 02:15 PM
Is the APC page on FlexJet pretty accurate? It shows most junior captain hired in 2006. I know a guy that has been there for almost two years and says he ďcloseĒ to upgrade. Also he claims that top Captains at Flex Jet makes 280-300K per year, however that math didnít seem to add up on Flex Jets APC Page.



Hahahahahahahahahaha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fooled2x
11-08-2018, 02:57 PM
Is the APC page on FlexJet pretty accurate? It shows most junior captain hired in 2006. I know a guy that has been there for almost two years and says he ďcloseĒ to upgrade. Also he claims that top Captains at Flex Jet makes 280-300K per year, however that math didnít seem to add up on Flex Jets APC Page.

DS was hired in 2000
CW was hired in 2001
Congratulations!!

Blutarsky
11-20-2018, 05:21 AM
Is the APC page on FlexJet pretty accurate? It shows most junior captain hired in 2006. I know a guy that has been there for almost two years and says he ďcloseĒ to upgrade. Also he claims that top Captains at Flex Jet makes 280-300K per year, however that math didnít seem to add up on Flex Jets APC Page.

I put off answering this because management has been promising new pay scales, improved workrules and better benefits. They are now three weeks past their self imposed deadline for announcing those changes. So I'm going to post what we currently have. I'll update it if they ever do announce changes.
The most junior captain who upgraded in seniority order (International Large Cabin or "ILC" positions are interview only, more on that later) was hired 8-2-2007 and his initials are CN. Pilots who haven't reached two full years, like your friend, have 80-100 pilots ahead of them for upgrade. Currently we are upgrading about 6 FOs per month, however CN is 70% down the seniority list. Traditionally we have about 60% captains. In order for a pilot hired today to get his management advertised "Three Year Upgrade", we will have to upgrade 6.2 FOs per month for the next 33 months. There are 207 FOs ahead of our hypothetical 3 year captain.
The 6 junior captains who interviewed for the ILC positions are a bit of a mystery. We have a lot of pilots with extensive international experience who signed up and were told they wouldn't even get an interview because "you are not qualified". The junior pilots who were hired have, for the most part, zero experience. So what management's requirements are is anyone's guess. For pay, see my next post...

Blutarsky
11-21-2018, 08:13 AM
Is the APC page on FlexJet pretty accurate? It shows most junior captain hired in 2006. I know a guy that has been there for almost two years and says he ďcloseĒ to upgrade. Also he claims that top Captains at Flex Jet makes 280-300K per year, however that math didnít seem to add up on Flex Jets APC Page.

Here's the second part of the answer to your question about pay structure at Flexjet currently.
We have eight different tiers. That's right, eight. If you've read about and thought the B scale was crazy back in the day, buckle up!
First officers have two pay scales, neither of which are even close to the standard of 60% of captains pay. The first is based on the 8/7 fixed schedule and it is $294 per day at year one. You will fly 192 days the first year. The variable (PBS) schedule is based on 202 days of flying and it is $355. Flying 10 less days in a year costs you $66 per day? And that is 44% of Red Label pay for fixed and just 53% for the PBS. At year five the percentages get marginally better. 53% of red label for fixed and 62% for PBS. At year 9 it's nearly equal. 52% for fixed and 53% for PBS. There are NO raises from year 5-9. And NO raises from year 10-12. Consider the actual seniority of the most junior captain and you will see the problem with no raises during these years.
Why would a new hire pick the fixed schedule? Well, if you don't live in one of the five main bases, you will be assigned an 8 on 4 off 8 on schedule at some point. It is possible to get this schedule at the end of one bid period and the beginning of the next. So you will have 8/4/8/4/8/4/8 all in a row. Some will tell you this is rare, but one of our VPs recently sent an email update stating that the number one complaint he gets is about these long assignments at the out bases. So we know it does happen.
There are 5 captain scales.
The Lear/Phenom scales are fixed and PBS, as are the Challenger 300 scales. So 4 different pay scales for two different types.
For the Lear/Phenom, captains start out at 67% of red label pay at year one. By year 12 they are Up to 76% of red label pay. There are no raises after year twelve, so by year 18 they are down to 62% of red label captain pay. The fixed schedule is even worse.
Regular Challenger captains fair somewhat better. Year one is 75% of red label pay, and by year 18, they have only dropped to about 72%. Keep in mind, management fully expects the same amount of work from each pilot. It's only the rewards that are arbitrary, divisive and unfair.
As far as the $300k red label captain, there are a few. 18 year red label pay is $1090 per day. If you work 225 days, count your per died as income and get some bonus money, it is possible to reach $300k. But it is far less common than the 8/4/8 schedule assignments. Sorry for the long posts, but this is the reality of pay today. Management says they are going to make positive changes to pay, benefits and workrules. I am hopeful they will happen sooner rather than later.

Guard
11-30-2018, 03:54 AM
UNITED is down the road from you at EWR, they are hiring people with little to no PIC, at 100K first year coming its a no brainer, $140 second year. Living where you work is key!

Propilot77
11-30-2018, 04:39 AM
Here's the second part of the answer to your question about pay structure at Flexjet currently.
We have eight different tiers. That's right, eight. If you've read about and thought the B scale was crazy back in the day, buckle up!
First officers have two pay scales, neither of which are even close to the standard of 60% of captains pay. The first is based on the 8/7 fixed schedule and it is $294 per day at year one. You will fly 192 days the first year. The variable (PBS) schedule is based on 202 days of flying and it is $355. Flying 10 less days in a year costs you $66 per day? And that is 44% of Red Label pay for fixed and just 53% for the PBS. At year five the percentages get marginally better. 53% of red label for fixed and 62% for PBS. At year 9 it's nearly equal. 52% for fixed and 53% for PBS. There are NO raises from year 5-9. And NO raises from year 10-12. Consider the actual seniority of the most junior captain and you will see the problem with no raises during these years.
Why would a new hire pick the fixed schedule? Well, if you don't live in one of the five main bases, you will be assigned an 8 on 4 off 8 on schedule at some point. It is possible to get this schedule at the end of one bid period and the beginning of the next. So you will have 8/4/8/4/8/4/8 all in a row. Some will tell you this is rare, but one of our VPs recently sent an email update stating that the number one complaint he gets is about these long assignments at the out bases. So we know it does happen.
There are 5 captain scales.
The Lear/Phenom scales are fixed and PBS, as are the Challenger 300 scales. So 4 different pay scales for two different types.
For the Lear/Phenom, captains start out at 67% of red label pay at year one. By year 12 they are Up to 76% of red label pay. There are no raises after year twelve, so by year 18 they are down to 62% of red label captain pay. The fixed schedule is even worse.
Regular Challenger captains fair somewhat better. Year one is 75% of red label pay, and by year 18, they have only dropped to about 72%. Keep in mind, management fully expects the same amount of work from each pilot. It's only the rewards that are arbitrary, divisive and unfair.
As far as the $300k red label captain, there are a few. 18 year red label pay is $1090 per day. If you work 225 days, count your per died as income and get some bonus money, it is possible to reach $300k. But it is far less common than the 8/4/8 schedule assignments. Sorry for the long posts, but this is the reality of pay today. Management says they are going to make positive changes to pay, benefits and workrules. I am hopeful they will happen sooner rather than later.

Ahhhhhh the beauty of no contract and getting rid of a union. Sooooo much ambiguity. Welcome to A Ricci run operation.

JohnBurke
11-30-2018, 04:44 AM
Iíll give you some advice. Once the allure of not knowing where you are going wears off, you will just look at your paycheck and days off like everyone else in this industry, and if you are at a place like NJA instead of an airline, you will become depressed.

Really?

When does that kick in?

35 years in the business now, and I don't see it that way. After 40 years? 45? When does that pragmatic pessimism finally drive home such that one becomes another drone. I'd like to know, so I can get out one year prior.

OhSnapAF
11-30-2018, 05:33 AM
Really?

When does that kick in?

35 years in the business now, and I don't see it that way. After 40 years? 45? When does that pragmatic pessimism finally drive home such that one becomes another drone. I'd like to know, so I can get out one year prior.

Oh if you still get a childís grin on your face when they tell you youíre going to some podunk airport with a truck stop hotel by the highway, more power to ya...

Vital Signs
11-30-2018, 05:38 AM
Really?

When does that kick in?


Year Two..

Learflyer
11-30-2018, 05:45 AM
UNITED is down the road from you at EWR, they are hiring people with little to no PIC, at 100K first year coming its a no brainer, $140 second year. Living where you work is key!



Oh just like that? Just knock on their door and start class on Monday?

JMO127
11-30-2018, 06:57 AM
Oh just like that? Just knock on their door and start class on Monday?

Apparently. Everyone is doing it! Didn't you know that it was that easy?

JohnBurke
11-30-2018, 10:18 AM
Oh if you still get a child’s grin on your face when they tell you you’re going to some podunk airport with a truck stop hotel by the highway, more power to ya...

I'm still happy when I go to work, and I still love to fly, yes.

I'm happy when I get a dispatch to some podunk tree in some podunk forest that exists as a set of coordinates on a map, and satisfied by the smell of smoke in the cockpit. I don't mind a bit going to work, and I enjoy coming home. I've never liked to travel, but I do like to fly.

And yeah, I've done a lot of small towns that were tiny enough that not even the truck stop carried a used paperback. Not a problem. Send me again.

It's not a child's grin. I'm not a child. I've been doing this a long time. Been around the block and around the world a few times. For decades. It hasn't grown old. I don't expect it to. It's comfortable, familiar. If someone is sick of it after two years, they're in for a sorry life.

When does that sad outlook kick in again? Past the fourth decade, or beyond?

When did yours start?

JMO127
11-30-2018, 10:52 AM
I'm still happy when I go to work, and I still love to fly, yes.

I'm happy when I get a dispatch to some podunk tree in some podunk forest that exists as a set of coordinates on a map, and satisfied by the smell of smoke in the cockpit. I don't mind a bit going to work, and I enjoy coming home. I've never liked to travel, but I do like to fly.

And yeah, I've done a lot of small towns that were tiny enough that not even the truck stop carried a used paperback. Not a problem. Send me again.

It's not a child's grin. I'm not a child. I've been doing this a long time. Been around the block and around the world a few times. For decades. It hasn't grown old. I don't expect it to. It's comfortable, familiar. If someone is sick of it after two years, they're in for a sorry life.

When does that sad outlook kick in again? Past the fourth decade, or beyond?

When did yours start?

Nice! Well said sir!

JohnBurke
11-30-2018, 02:11 PM
True, but they also back people that should be canned without question.

Not true.

You gave your time as a steward or business agent?

fooled2x
11-30-2018, 04:38 PM
I'm still happy when I go to work, and I still love to fly, yes.

I'm happy when I get a dispatch to some podunk tree in some podunk forest that exists as a set of coordinates on a map, and satisfied by the smell of smoke in the cockpit. I don't mind a bit going to work, and I enjoy coming home. I've never liked to travel, but I do like to fly.

And yeah, I've done a lot of small towns that were tiny enough that not even the truck stop carried a used paperback. Not a problem. Send me again.

It's not a child's grin. I'm not a child. I've been doing this a long time. Been around the block and around the world a few times. For decades. It hasn't grown old. I don't expect it to. It's comfortable, familiar. If someone is sick of it after two years, they're in for a sorry life.

When does that sad outlook kick in again? Past the fourth decade, or beyond?

When did yours start?

For some of us this is a vocation, not a hobby. Uncle Kenn is about to fix this with our new payscales starting in January. I know this is not a major airline job and The pay and benefits won't be exactly the same, but in this market, we will be close considering the QOL.

JohnBurke
11-30-2018, 05:13 PM
For some of us this is a vocation, not a hobby.

You've been fooled twice, so sorry to hear.

Insofar as your vocation, has anyone said differently?

Jdaviat10
12-02-2018, 01:55 PM
Anyone know how hard it is to get the 7x7 schedule... also which day does the 8x7 and 7x7 schedule start on?

JMO127
12-02-2018, 04:16 PM
Anyone know how hard it is to get the 7x7 schedule... also which day does the 8x7 and 7x7 schedule start on?

Just have to bid for it. You can however take the 8 and 6 right out of the gate for less $$

David Puddy
12-02-2018, 06:16 PM
Tell Flexjet you want a right seat in the new Gulfstream G500 or NO DICE... ;)

pilot124
12-03-2018, 07:27 AM
For some of us this is a vocation, not a hobby. Uncle Kenn is about to fix this with our new payscales starting in January. I know this is not a major airline job and The pay and benefits won't be exactly the same, but in this market, we will be close considering the QOL.

Uncle Kenn has been talking pay raises for a while now and still nothing. Has anybody heard or seen these proposed pay increases?

ATIS
12-03-2018, 08:45 AM
Uncle Kenn has been talking pay raises for a while now and still nothing. Has anybody heard or seen these proposed pay increases?

Not a word since the voice mail in September.

Donít expect much and you wonít be disappointed.

Always a day late and a dollar short.

symbian simian
12-04-2018, 07:27 PM
For some of us this is a vocation, not a hobby. Uncle Kenn is about to fix this with our new payscales starting in January. I know this is not a major airline job and The pay and benefits won't be exactly the same, but in this market, we will be close considering the QOL.

When I started at Spirit, i would call it a hobby and people would be annoyed. I would have to explain that to qualify as a job it should pay all the bills and at $38/hr first year pay it didn't. It progressed into a job when I upgraded and made $130/hr, and with the new contract I call it a career at $220/hr.

Guard
12-05-2018, 01:35 AM
Anyone know how hard it is to get the 7x7 schedule... also which day does the 8x7 and 7x7 schedule start on?

We were told you can call after you complete IOE and request it and expect to get it. (New guys are on the 72CC schedule out of the gate). If this TA passes the union is predicting about a $15-20K bump on certain fleets for first year guys. Latitude guys are flying an average of 25-30 hours on a tour so that's a $3400 (1/3 goes into 401K with no option to make it take-home pay) bump to your monthly salary, not including any overtime or night pay. At least that's how it's being sold. They're short most weeks so there are also pretty lucrative opportunities if you want to stay out for an 8th day? I'm drinking the cool aid for now.

Buschpilot92
12-06-2018, 12:47 PM
What does netjets pay during training?

Flyfalcons
12-06-2018, 02:16 PM
NJA pays at the CC72 rate during training.

sirspeed
12-07-2018, 03:10 PM
The long days get so old at NJA especially when most duty days were 10-13hrs/day. This is one reason why Iím glad I left and went to the majors. Even if they get a pay raise down the road, the QOL still wonít compare to working for a major and living in base. My 2 cents

Your so right NJA will never get there act together and will run you into the ground I am trying to get on the big yellow bus myself Im done with NJA

Retractable
12-08-2018, 03:31 AM
Your so right NJA will never get there act together and will run you into the ground I am trying to get on the big yellow bus myself Im done with NJA

Funny.

NJA has never made more money than now.

Enjoy the Spirit World.

Learflyer
12-08-2018, 05:56 AM
Your so right NJA will never get there act together and will run you into the ground I am trying to get on the big yellow bus myself Im done with NJA

You need to get on the grammar and punctuation bus, Mr. :D