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View Full Version : Kalitta or Atlas for 2019?


ncflyer
10-27-2018, 09:36 AM
Hey folks, it's my first time posting a thread, but I'm wondering if I could get some input. I've got a CJO from both Atlas Air and Kalitta Air, both for 747 classes. Any ideas on which company would be a better choice? I like being overseas (former military), and I would like to be at a company I can park long term. Stability and growth are two things I'm after. Thanks in advance!


Riverside
10-27-2018, 10:04 AM
Hey folks, it's my first time posting a thread, but I'm wondering if I could get some input. I've got a CJO from both Atlas Air and Kalitta Air, both for 747 classes. Any ideas on which company would be a better choice? I like being overseas (former military), and I would like to be at a company I can park long term. Stability and growth are two things I'm after. Thanks in advance!

I think a little research into Atlas will go a long way.

Fillmore Slim
10-27-2018, 10:05 AM
Mil guy chiming in here......take Kalitta. Atlas is a toxic cess pool at the moment. I haven't been able to recommended Atlas to any mil guys, including my good friends. If you're guard/reserve, your better off staying a trougher and getting a regional job with flow. Your MDS vol 3 has better work rules than Atlas.

IMHO,

Slim


Checkers21
10-27-2018, 11:09 AM
As soon as Atlas gets a contract, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ll go back into first place. I think a little research will show a lot more complaining on K4 threads than Atlas threads. It was only recently, within the last two years that K4 started to become a desirable outfit with their new contract. I sure hope it stays that way.

Screwed
10-27-2018, 02:56 PM
This is like asking do I want $10,000 or would I rather have a six inch knife stabbed in my back.

Atlas is 2-3 years minimum away from a new contract. Very likely it will be imposed by an Arbitrator due to the merger with Southern.

I regret ever coming to this stinking cesspool.

Go to Kalitta and make more money and fly with pilots happy to be there. The K4 contract is amendable in 2020. They will probably have another new contract before Atlas even gets 1.

HercDriver130
10-28-2018, 05:06 AM
This is like asking do I want $10,000 or would I rather have a six inch knife stabbed in my back.

Atlas is 2-3 years minimum away from a new contract. Very likely it will be imposed by an Arbitrator due to the merger with Southern.

I regret ever coming to this stinking cesspool.

Go to Kalitta and make more money and fly with pilots happy to be there. The K4 contract is amendable in 2020. They will probably have another new contract before Atlas even gets 1.

^^^ this is the current reality... what it might be like in 2-3.... 10 years nobody knows. What I do know is that the situation between the union and the company at Atlas is in the ****ter.... and I believe screwed is right... I would be surprised if a new contract appears in less than two years. How long it will take K4 to settle a new contract is anybody's guess but I do know that this wont be a total rewrite of the contract like the last one. FWIW... for the first time in ... well.. EVER... there are no outstanding grievances with the company and by all accounts communication is good. We shall see as we approach contract 2020. Its entirely possible that a new contract at Atlas will make IT the desirable place in a few years... that sort of thing comes and goes... and this situation is no exception. Good luck in your decision.

5Ypilot
10-28-2018, 01:42 PM
I cannot say enough bad about Atlas. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. At the rate we are going now a major accident is likely in the future at 5Y as well. A toxic miserable horrible place to come to work, I am 8 years in and working all day everyday to get out.

Captjim
10-28-2018, 05:00 PM
As an ex-Atlas guy and having a ton of friends at Kalitta, I'd say go to Kalitta hands down. Things may change for Atlas, but I don't see a contract coming any sooner than a year more likely two. Everyone's miserable and leaving in droves, I don't know how Atlas will sustain the massive attrition.

JackStraw
10-28-2018, 05:53 PM
The upgrade at Kalitta is a year or less where Atlas is 3-7 years. The pay at kalitta is at least double. And Atlas won’t have a cba until kalitta has their new cba. So, clearly you should go to Atlas. Ed Gleason needs a new boat.

KyberCrystal
10-29-2018, 08:42 AM
Everyone's miserable and leaving in droves, I don't know how Atlas will sustain the massive attrition.

Atlas just started a bridge program Gojet. After x amount of time with Gojet you go in to an Atlas interview program.

GoodRide
10-29-2018, 08:46 AM
Atlas just started a bridge program Gojet. After x amount of time with Gojet you go in to an Atlas interview program.

I thought you were queuing up to say after some time at Atlas you can get a Gojet interview.

No Land 3
10-29-2018, 10:13 AM
I can only speak for Kalitta, very happy here.

DC8DRIVER
10-29-2018, 06:54 PM
Atlas won't have a new contract.

We will have an amalgamated contract forced down our throats due to the sloppy wording of our current contract.

Nobody here is happy.

Kalitta. 100%.

regionalpilot16
10-29-2018, 07:38 PM
Literally not a day goes by that I realize that this was the worst career decision I made.... interviewed the day the Southern acquisition was announced. On my way out as is everyone else here that possibly can. Since I don't have warrants out for my arrest in multiple states, I may have a chance. It's a pretty cool bird... you will get to know it well as you will literally live on it during days off, holidays, birthdays, and any other important life occurence... You might even be lucky and have a friend or two left in a few years to discuss it with. Not sure the lifestyle is better at Kalitta (not saying it isn't either.. I honestly don't know) but at least you're going to get paid decently to prep for FX or UPS.

SGALLO
10-30-2018, 01:52 PM
Is the window closed to apply? I keep getting the "we are no longer accepting applications for this position? Thanks in advance!

Riverside
10-30-2018, 02:10 PM
Is the window closed to apply? I keep getting the "we are no longer accepting applications for this position? Thanks in advance!

Correct K4 isn't.

SGALLO
10-30-2018, 03:03 PM
Correct K4 isn't.

Any idea when the window will re-open?

JungleJetDriver
10-30-2018, 03:17 PM
Hehehehe! Get ready *.

Riverside
10-30-2018, 03:23 PM
Any idea when the window will re-open?

Probably next year.

suddenimpact
10-31-2018, 12:44 AM
Atlas won't have a new contract.

We will have an amalgamated contract forced down our throats due to the sloppy wording of our current contract.

Nobody here is happy.

Kalitta. 100%.

**** he is right.

Go for K4. The current disaster happening at Atlas is something you don't want to get involved with. It's Money out of your pocket and into our leaderships pocket and Atlas managements bonus program.

Elevation
10-31-2018, 07:00 AM
I'm at Atlas pilot. We know how contracts stack-up today. We don't know how they'll stack up tomorrow. Kalitta is where it's at.

That said, everything we hear about Atlas today is what we heard about K4 a few years ago. At that time people were leaving K4 to come to Atlas. I think it's pretty likely that we'll be compensated more than Kalitta in the future. Kalitta and Atlas will both pay less than FedEx or UPS for the foreseeable future, so neither place will be a career destination. This is really unfortunate because I like what I do and the people I work with.

If you're thinking you'll be in and out in less than five years, I'd go for the best quality of life and fastest pathway to the left seat. I'd be financially and psychologically prepared for that five-year plan to mushroom out to ten+ years if there's a recession, major industry shake-up, etc.

Diesel8
10-31-2018, 07:38 AM
Kalitta vs Atlas? Really? Like do you actually read these boards? Is this like thread generation because you have nothing better to do with your time? This is what they call "churning" in the financial world.

History:

Atlas was better than Kalitta, Southern was better than Kalitta at one point in time.

Things change - always. Keep up with the changes.

Currently:

Kalitta is better than Atlas. Connie signed a contract, Atlas will NEVER sign a contract. There was negotiation between Connie and the pilots. There is NO negotiation with Atlas management and the pilots. Atlas sued their pilots. What more needs to be said.

Southern is below the bilge pump level. Things there are more dismal since being bought Atlas than they have ever been.

maxjet
10-31-2018, 11:08 AM
Kalitta vs Atlas? Really? Like do you actually read these boards? Is this like thread generation because you have nothing better to do with your time? This is what they call "churning" in the financial world.

History:

Atlas was better than Kalitta, Southern was better than Kalitta at one point in time.

Things change - always. Keep up with the changes.

Currently:

Kalitta is better than Atlas. Connie signed a contract, Atlas will NEVER sign a contract. There was negotiation between Connie and the pilots. There is NO negotiation with Atlas management and the pilots. Atlas sued their pilots. What more needs to be said.

Southern is below the bilge pump level. Things there are more dismal since being bought Atlas than they have ever been.

This sums it up exactly 😀

atpcliff
10-31-2018, 03:15 PM
Kalitta and Atlas will both pay less than FedEx or UPS for the foreseeable future, so neither place will be a career destination.
If the above is true, then Atlas/Polar/Southern will shrink in size, as their pilot manning goes negative. If it gets bad enough, Captains will be displaced back to the right seat.

If you're thinking you'll be in and out in less than five years, I'd go for the best quality of life and fastest pathway to the left seat. I'd be financially and psychologically prepared for that five-year plan to mushroom out to ten+ years if there's a recession, major industry shake-up, etc.
EXCELLENT advice!!!


God Bless, and Namaste...

boeingdvr
10-31-2018, 03:31 PM
Neither. FedEx or UPS

No Land 3
10-31-2018, 04:02 PM
Neither. FedEx or UPS
And have to commute again, or move? Many of us want K4 to be our career destination. What is one man's dream company may not be anothers.
Maybe I am stupid, but I am happy.

CardboardCutout
10-31-2018, 04:05 PM
Steak Dinner or poke in the eye with a sharp stick?

Whale Driver
10-31-2018, 04:30 PM
And have to commute again, or move? Many of us want K4 to be our career destination. What is one man's dream company may not be anothers.
Maybe I am stupid, but I am happy.

FedEx or UPS don't have to commute, they make enough to buy whatever tickets to work that they want and have a 100G plus left over.

maxjet
10-31-2018, 04:48 PM
FedEx or UPS don't have to commute, they make enough to buy whatever tickets to work that they want and have a 100G plus left over.

You actually believe that? For a small percentage of pilots this may be true. Most pilots when presented with a seemingly secure future will live within that income level. Some pilots will insist on living above that level. I know of no pilots who budget for commuting and hotel rooms. I am sure they are out there, I just don’t know of any. I do know several pilots who I wonder how they find time to play with all of the toys they have.

Globemaster2827
10-31-2018, 05:13 PM
And have to commute again, or move? Many of us want K4 to be our career destination. What is one man's dream company may not be anothers.
Maybe I am stupid, but I am happy.

This is the reason why K4 won't shrink. Atlas could because people are angry.

Globemaster2827
10-31-2018, 05:21 PM
FedEx or UPS don't have to commute, they make enough to buy whatever tickets to work that they want and have a 100G plus left over.

Once you build up a travel bank most guys just get a Business class ticket if it's Domestic and less than 5 hours. The commutes on your own time to MEM are mostly on company airplanes, which is much nicer than dealing with coach from MIA up to ANC. My crashpad is $250 a month... Less than "Imputed Income" was. I'd much rather deal with that than "Imputed Income" and travel on "Day 0" and "Day 18". I worked much harder at Atlas... I can't speak for K4....

On top of all that I get a retirement, I work 5 days less a month(10 days less after I move to MEM), and I'll make more as a 2nd year narrow body FO than a 747 Atlas CA.

Atlas was a good stepping stone. That's it.

WhipWhitaker
10-31-2018, 07:25 PM
^ bingo to all of the above. If you honestly believe that ANY ACMI gig is in the same universe as FedEx or UPS, you’re out of your mind. It’s fine to be happy at K4 or Omni or even at Atlas god forbid, but to get on here and say that it is a career destination for anyone with more than 5 years left in your career, a college degree, and no felonies, is beyond absurd. All of ACMI is jv rookie league status in every single category, pay, benefits, medical, retirement, hours of service, and so on. Get real.

gsphuntr
10-31-2018, 07:48 PM
NoLands k4 koolaid is pretty amusing to read sometimes... to each their own - glad the dudes happy there. Been commuting for 14 years... the last 2+ at Brown. ZERO stress... it’s a completely different universe then PAX commuting which maybe he’s correlating from previous experience? - Sure, on occasion, maybe 2 times a year? I say F it and buy a ticket... why? Because I can... drop in the bucket.

But, seriously dude... if you’re under 50? At a ACMI... yes, you’re crazy to not try like hell to get to Brown or Purple.. simply too much dough, QOL, time at home, etc to leave on the table.

No Land 3
11-01-2018, 06:52 AM
NoLands k4 koolaid is pretty amusing to read sometimes... to each their own - glad the dudes happy there. Been commuting for 14 years... the last 2+ at Brown. ZERO stress... it’s a completely different universe then PAX commuting which maybe he’s correlating from previous experience? - Sure, on occasion, maybe 2 times a year? I say F it and buy a ticket... why? Because I can... drop in the bucket.

But, seriously dude... if you’re under 50? At a ACMI... yes, you’re crazy to not try like hell to get to Brown or Purple.. simply too much dough, QOL, time at home, etc to leave on the table.

Out of curiosity, how long would it take at Purple or Brown to gross 160k? 250k? Perhaps my koolaid is strong, but I never pretended that money and time off wasn't ultimately better at Purple or Brown.

Riverside
11-01-2018, 07:07 AM
Out of curiosity, how long would it take at Purple or Brown to gross 160k? 250k? Perhaps my koolaid is strong, but I never pretended that money and time off wasn't ultimately better at Purple or Brown.

According to the last few posts on FedEx forum. A guy said a new hire can earn 200k on a widebody in 2 years.

DC8DRIVER
11-01-2018, 07:21 AM
Out of curiosity, how long would it take at Purple or Brown to gross 160k? 250k? Perhaps my koolaid is strong, but I never pretended that money and time off wasn't ultimately better at Purple or Brown.

Just looking at the APC site, at UPS you'd clear 170k in your second year as a FO on any airplane.

Don't know what the upgrade times are, but you'd clear 250k as a second year CA.

And these are base min guarantee rates, Soft pay would add up quickly. Not to mention retirement.

Seems like a no-brainer to me ...

No Land 3
11-01-2018, 08:01 AM
Just looking at the APC site, at UPS you'd clear 170k in your second year as a FO on any airplane.

Don't know what the upgrade times are, but you'd clear 250k as a second year CA.

And these are base min guarantee rates, Soft pay would add up quickly. Not to mention retirement.

Seems like a no-brainer to me ...
Hmm, I was awarded CA upgrade at the start of year three, and if I pass, and not counting soft money, I could possibly be ahead at K4.

gsphuntr
11-01-2018, 08:22 AM
You’ll make north of 200k year two at brown EASILY. What kind of 401k contribution is Connie throwing you? Pension? how many days a year are you working? buddy of mine at Connie just got home from a 30 day rotation!? You effing kidding me? His wife HATES it..

My last paystub from 10/20 had me at 189k for 2018 so far... with peak around the corner that should put me around the 225k mark by end of 2018?

We have 56 day bid periods broken into essentially 28 day months... with travel deviations, DHs, etc I’m typically getting 16-17 days off in a 28 day period. Vacation? A ton... OCV? Slide?

I’ve blocked 230 hours so far this year...you? You gotta look at the big picture man... how old are you? To insinuate you may come out ahead at Connie? Unless you’re over 60.. put the pipe down.

No Land 3
11-01-2018, 09:10 AM
You’ll make north of 200k year two at brown EASILY. What kind of 401k contribution is Connie throwing you? Pension? how many days a year are you working? buddy of mine at Connie just got home from a 30 day rotation!? You effing kidding me? His wife HATES it..

My last paystub from 10/20 had me at 189k for 2018 so far... with peak around the corner that should put me around the 225k mark by end of 2018?

We have 56 day bid periods broken into essentially 28 day months... with travel deviations, DHs, etc I’m typically getting 16-17 days off in a 28 day period. Vacation? A ton... OCV? Slide?

I’ve blocked 230 hours so far this year...you? You gotta look at the big picture man... how old are you? To insinuate you may come out ahead at Connie? Unless you’re over 60.. put the pipe down.

To be fair, that 30 day rotation was his choice. Hey, I was only talking for my own situation in the short term. No question that Brown or Purple pays more with more time at home.

CA Deplorable
11-01-2018, 10:29 AM
Boy did this thread digress. Some people like what they like and money is not everyones #1 priority. I hope every aviator gets their dream job...but a majority will not. Make peace with where you are and if you are blessed to get a shot at a bigger better situation, then its thinking time, simple as that.

Globemaster2827
11-01-2018, 10:47 AM
Out of curiosity, how long would it take at Purple or Brown to gross 160k? 250k? Perhaps my koolaid is strong, but I never pretended that money and time off wasn't ultimately better at Purple or Brown.

I'll make 200k easy 2nd year at FedEx. One of my buddies told me he flew about 10 extra days and cleared $250k 2nd year. If I want to work "extra" (as much as K4 or Atlas work) I'd make close to $300k. Then one day I'll make Captain where they make $350k doing the bare minimum sitting at home on Reserve working 4 days a month. 757 Captain upgrade is less than 2 years right now. My sim partner was a 2 year upgrade. If I want to work as hard as I did at Atlas as a Captain I'd be clearing $500k and still have the exact same amount of time off as the guy who does the bare minimum at Atlas... But with 3 times the pay.

Keep in mind that you may not be factoring in that you have to fund your own retirement. This leaves one of two options... You subtract 20% to equal what FedEx and UPS are getting OR you have zero retirement. In case #2 you'd make about what a FedEx FO makes until you retire. Then they'd be fishing in the Florida Keys and you'd be working 2 minimum wage jobs or instructing in the sim until you're 85.

I don't begrudge people who are happy at Atlas and K4. They're both very good jobs. I was unhappy at Atlas because I never saw my family and was paid less than a 2nd year FedEX FO as a 747 Captain. I'm very happy now.

JungleJetDriver
11-01-2018, 12:20 PM
COME ON!!!
If you super hero’s in purple and brown don’t think that most of us would sell our children, sacrifice a nut or both, hell I’d sell my soul to the devil himself to join you all at FedEx and UPS. We’re jumping through the hoops, we’re trying our best to do the right steps to the right dance just to jump into your pools and hopefully not swim for 12 to 24 months. But there comes a point, even for the current pool swimmers, that we have to embrace where we are and try to make it as positive a place as we can.
Your HR dept. (along with most HR depts.) and their wacky computer algorithms that randomly choose the golden resumes, is border line insane. So please do not ASSume we are not considering brown or purple.

JackStraw
11-01-2018, 12:45 PM
COME ON!!!
If you super hero’s in purple and brown don’t think that most of us would sell our children, sacrifice a nut or both, hell I’d sell my soul to the devil himself to join you all at FedEx and UPS. We’re jumping through the hoops, we’re trying our best to do the right steps to the right dance just to jump into your pools and hopefully not swim for 12 to 24 months. But there comes a point, even for the current pool swimmers, that we have to embrace where we are and try to make it as positive a place as we can.
Your HR dept. (along with most HR depts.) and their wacky computer algorithms that randomly choose the golden resumes, is border line insane. So please do not ASSume we are not considering brown or purple.

It’s typical of the lucky ones to get hired at the aforementioned airlines and to occasionally pop in and remind us how nice it is at their new employer; as if nearly every single one of us isn’t trying to get hired. I guess it makes them feel good about themselves to show up and rub it in every so often.

Kerizbro
11-01-2018, 01:08 PM
Can any Miami based atlas guys/gals answer how much they average per month?

I remember reading the kalitta guys averaging 85hrs credit plus 1200 per diem.

Definitely looking forward to UPS 757 but have heard about the schedules 😰

Globemaster2827
11-01-2018, 01:25 PM
It’s typical of the lucky ones to get hired at the aforementioned airlines and to occasionally pop in and remind us how nice it is at their new employer; as if nearly every single one of us isn’t trying to get hired. I guess it makes them feel good about themselves to show up and rub it in every so often.

I worked really hard to get where I'm at. I had a college degree, 1000 PIC, and was a Captain in MD and Boeing equipment. I had military experience and union volunteer work. I was trying to bid off for a job fair but was on the bottom of the 747 list.

Everyone knows some of it is luck but, please, please, PLEASE reach out for help. You can find me here or on All Out and I've spent hours on the phone trying to help guys get hired who've asked.

There's a guy in my crashpad who I helped. He had... Job Fairs, 767 Captain, 747 Type, College Degree, 1000 PIC and was an RJ Captain. Another Giant in my Crashpad had... 747 Type, 767 Captain, Job Fair, College Degree, 1000 PIC and 1000 Instructor, and Military Instructor on the C-17 (MD)... I'd consider all of these resumes to be strong given what's left. My guess is most of you are close to that if not already there.

Also, be prepared for the process to be tough. All 3 of us in my Crashpad have bombed interviews. 1 US Air, 1 UPS, 1 Delta, and 1 American. This isn't as easy as just getting an email or phone call. All 3 of us added things to our resume and FINALLY got it.

If any of you - K4 or Atlas - have questions about FedEx OR UPS (I turned down a job offer there in favor of Purple) please PM me. I'm happy to help and am even willing to spend time on the phone helping you.... And yes... I do understand how lucky I am to have my resume pulled out of the stack.

Globemaster2827
11-01-2018, 01:28 PM
Can any Miami based atlas guys/gals answer how much they average per month?

I remember reading the kalitta guys averaging 85hrs credit plus 1200 per diem.

Definitely looking forward to UPS 757 but have heard about the schedules 😰

I was an MIA FO for 6 months. I averaged about 70 a month I'd say. Keep in mind that MIA is extremely senior and you won't be able to hold it as an FO for 2 years. Then you'll be on the bottom half for another 3 years. You'll be able to hold Captain elsewhere in the system. My guess is that to be a CA in MIA that its a 10 year upgrade right now because MIA has the best QOL if you're willing to move there.

WhipWhitaker
11-01-2018, 01:30 PM
Hmm, I was awarded CA upgrade at the start of year three, and if I pass, and not counting soft money, I could possibly be ahead at K4.

Make sure you’re not counting vacation, time off, retirement, medical, actual income earned vs time away, QOL, or benefits either and yeah you’re ahead...get real. I’m glad you’re happy at K4, I am actually pretty happy at Atlas myself. But keep it real. Congrats on the upgrade.

gsphuntr
11-01-2018, 01:34 PM
Not trying to rub it in AT ALL. Simply pointing out NoLands nose turning at FedEx/Brown - go back and read some of his posts... it’s been documented for the last several months how he basically wouldn’t even consider Brown or Purple - I’m just tryin to help a brother out - maybe help him see the forest from the big tree he’s pumped about? Not at all a shot at any of you at K4 or Atlas... chill TFO. We have plenty to grumble about at Brown... certainly ain’t no country club. I have friends at BOTH! Jesus krist, sensitive much?

JungleJetDriver
11-01-2018, 02:22 PM
GSP and GLOBE we appreciate the knowledge and guidance.
Anybody got a crystal ball I can take a look at?

Globemaster2827
11-01-2018, 02:33 PM
GSP and GLOBE we appreciate the knowledge and guidance.
Anybody got a crystal ball I can take a look at?

Yeah... Shoot me a PM and I can tell you more info if you're competitive right now.... Or what you need to do to be competitive. It was worth all of the heart ache to get to FedEx. I've already got a very personal story about management moving heaven and earth to make my life better.

No Land 3
11-01-2018, 05:02 PM
Not trying to rub it in AT ALL. Simply pointing out NoLands nose turning at FedEx/Brown - go back and read some of his posts... it’s been documented for the last several months how he basically wouldn’t even consider Brown or Purple - I’m just tryin to help a brother out - maybe help him see the forest from the big tree he’s pumped about? Not at all a shot at any of you at K4 or Atlas... chill TFO. We have plenty to grumble about at Brown... certainly ain’t no country club. I have friends at BOTH! Jesus krist, sensitive much?

Thank you for shining the light in my eye. I am not blind or dumb, but there are things I need to do first to become competitive in an interview, should I decide. In the meantime I am happy.

maxjet
11-02-2018, 07:11 AM
Thank you for shining the light in my eye. I am not blind or dumb, but there are things I need to do first to become competitive in an interview, should I decide. In the meantime I am happy.

I will never understand why most, not all, pilots seem to think it is all about the money. In my opinion this is a contributing factor in the early death rate in the pilot community. You bean counter types need to figure out a price for happiness and factor that into your equation.

If I were a young man, I would ride the Kalitta train for a few more years. When things start to decline, as they inevitably will, I would make the jump with my pic experience over to brown or purple. As I sit in the miserable but very lucrative cesspool of bitterness and greed there I would know that I am not one of them. I have been down this road before. I like to say. A cop is a good thing to have been. Any day in the airplane beats most days in the police car.

zerozero
11-02-2018, 09:01 AM
If I were a young man, I would ride the Kalitta train for a few more years. When things start to decline, as they inevitably will, I would make the jump with my pic experience over to brown or purple.

Ha. Just like <finger snap> that?

News flash! Airline hiring is arbitrary and capricious. You may win the lottery and crack the code on the first try, but cold hard statistical averages says it will take you THREE tries before the average pilot lands a job where he spends the rest of his life.

And God have mercy on your soul if something like 9/11, economic turn down, etc occur before you crack that code.

The vast majority of pilots do NOT have that kind of control over their careers.

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 09:55 AM
I will never understand why most, not all, pilots seem to think it is all about the money. In my opinion this is a contributing factor in the early death rate in the pilot community. You bean counter types need to figure out a price for happiness and factor that into your equation.


If I were a young man, I would ride the Kalitta train for a few more years. When things start to decline, as they inevitably will, I would make the jump with my pic experience over to brown or purple. As I sit in the miserable but very lucrative cesspool of bitterness and greed there I would know that I am not one of them. I have been down this road before. I like to say. A cop is a good thing to have been. Any day in the airplane beats most days in the police car.
Probably because it is all about the money. The airlines with the best pay also have the best of everything....retirement, profit sharing, medical insurance, disability insurance. Those things might not look important until you lose your medical for a couple of years or forever or retirement sneaks up on you.
Also comes in handy when you pay cash for a couple kids private college and then add a couple weddings on top of the that!. It's all about the money or why go through all the training , studying, ck rides, medicals??? Money! Tell someone working for minimum wage at Walmart or Amazon its not about the money just enjoy your job!

atpcliff
11-02-2018, 10:37 AM
Probably because it is all about the money. The airlines with the best pay also have the best of everything....retirement, profit sharing, medical insurance, disability insurance. Those things might not look important until you lose your medical for a couple of years or forever or retirement sneaks up on you.
Also comes in handy when you pay cash for a couple kids private college and then add a couple weddings on top of the that!. It's all about the money or why go through all the training , studying, ck rides, medicals??? Money! Tell someone working for minimum wage at Walmart or Amazon its not about the money just enjoy your job!

I have met a lot of people who want more money. When they get more money, they want more money. They can never be satisfied, because they always want more money. To be satisfied, they have to change their outlook, from wanting more money, to something else.

I hope that everyone reading this can find a way to enjoy their lives. God Bless, and Namaste...

Stimpy the Kat
11-02-2018, 10:47 AM
Amen Cliff.

My Buddy, who was in Bankruptcy at the time, was promoted and about to get a raise from 60k/yr to 80k/yr. " A guy can live pretty well on that don't ya' think !? " he exclaimed.

I looked at him, smiled, and said: " Well, if you can't live on Sixty Grand a year...You certainly can't live on Eighty. "

Took him a second to get it...

:)


STK

maxjet
11-02-2018, 11:34 AM
Probably because it is all about the money. The airlines with the best pay also have the best of everything....retirement, profit sharing, medical insurance, disability insurance. Those things might not look important until you lose your medical for a couple of years or forever or retirement sneaks up on you.
Also comes in handy when you pay cash for a couple kids private college and then add a couple weddings on top of the that!. It's all about the money or why go through all the training , studying, ck rides, medicals??? Money! Tell someone working for minimum wage at Walmart or Amazon its not about the money just enjoy your job!

Sorry that this is the view of your worth. I hope you lives clean and healthy life with enough time to enjoy it. As someone who is getting ready to retire it is my opinion that you could not be more wrong

Ghost Pilot
11-02-2018, 11:36 AM
About the money issue, I'm not one of these 'money is everything and should be your only priority when deciding which sector to settle down in', but...


I feel that your compensation should be closely commensurate with the difficulty of your job and the necessary skills required to execute it. Not to poo poo on the legacies or big cargo, but I feel their duties are significantly easier then what we have to deal with in the ACMI world, and as such a paycheck a quarter to a third less to fly a more complicated, less streamlined and predictable operation is a slap in the face. This winter when you're doing SDF turns or flying under a FDX callsign, making 66% what the crew parked next to you is, I imagine that feeling will be mutual.



It's one thing to say you want to do easier, less stressful work with a better QOL, that's everyone's prerogative. But this is a huge pay discrepancy without (in the aggregate) significant QOL improvements to balance it out. This must be accounted for in the next contract. I don't expect parity, nor do I think it is realistic, but unless that gap closes I can't can see K4 becoming less of a stepping stone for those who have more time and stones in front of them.

PotatoChip
11-02-2018, 11:53 AM
About the money issue, I'm not one of these 'money is everything and should be your only priority when deciding which sector to settle down in', but...


I feel that your compensation should be closely commensurate with the difficulty of your job and the necessary skills required to execute it. Not to poo poo on the legacies or big cargo, but I feel their duties are significantly easier then what we have to deal with in the ACMI world, and as such a paycheck a quarter to a third less to fly a more complicated, less streamlined and predictable operation is a slap in the face. This winter when you're doing SDF turns or flying under a FDX callsign, making 66% what the crew parked next to you is, I imagine that feeling will be mutual.



It's one thing to say you want to do easier, less stressful work with a better QOL, that's everyone's prerogative. But this is a huge pay discrepancy without (in the aggregate) significant QOL improvements to balance it out. This must be accounted for in the next contract. I don't expect parity, nor do I think it is realistic, but unless that gap closes I can't can see K4 becoming less of a stepping stone for those who have more time and stones in front of them.

Unfortunately it’s always been that way. Same with the regionals. Fly six legs a day in a jet aircraft in the same conditions with longer delays and less respect from gate agents, and captains are paid less than half of what First Officers are at their mainline.

WhaleWrangler
11-02-2018, 12:16 PM
I will never understand why most, not all, pilots seem to think it is all about the money. In my opinion this is a contributing factor in the early death rate in the pilot community. You bean counter types need to figure out a price for happiness and factor that into your equation.

If I were a young man, I would ride the Kalitta train for a few more years. When things start to decline, as they inevitably will, I would make the jump with my pic experience over to brown or purple. As I sit in the miserable but very lucrative cesspool of bitterness and greed there I would know that I am not one of them. I have been down this road before. I like to say. A cop is a good thing to have been. Any day in the airplane beats most days in the police car.


Exactly! I don't know why people think Brown or Purple are the be all and end all of it. Have many friends at Brown and it seems the consistant thread is "If it weren't for the money I'd be out of here". Having done peak for too many years now and listening to the complaining on the crew bus in SDF about how "hard" they are having it I don't think it's a place I'd want to be at!

I make good money at K4 without even having to try, have things I want, money left over after bills and investments etc, enjoy good seniority to name a few so why would I even consider leaving?? Right now I must say that pilot / Management relationship is the best I have seen it in the past 12 years which is good. I think in 2020 if things stay as they are we will see a good raise across the board, Management know, and are seeing how hard it is to get crews.

I am 50 and want to do maximum of 10 more years, less if possible, and get out of the airlines all together and right now on track and then some to achive this.

5Ypilot
11-02-2018, 12:26 PM
So that pretty much sums it up for the OP of the thread.

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 03:18 PM
Sorry that this is the view of your worth. I hope you lives clean and healthy life with enough time to enjoy it. As someone who is getting ready to retire it is my opinion that you could not be more wrong
Why in world would you be sorry someone planned ahead and does not need to sponge off the goverment. I am also am someone getting ready to retire...thankfully I have a job with a great income and have a retirement and will not be working a part time job or selling real estate when it happens. Just because you retire does not mean you should have to move into a trailer. Invest invest invest then retire and relax....isn't that the way it's supposed to work. I have no problem with someone retiring without a retirement and planning on SSI or moving in with their kids. It's just not for me.

742Dash
11-02-2018, 03:24 PM
I have met a lot of people who want more money. When they get more money, they want more money. They can never be satisfied, because they always want more money. To be satisfied, they have to change their outlook, from wanting more money, to something else.

I hope that everyone reading this can find a way to enjoy their lives. God Bless, and Namaste...

Thanks for the chance to post Kurt Vonnegut's eulogy to Joseph Heller!

=======================
True story, Word of Honor:

Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer

now dead,

and I were at a party given by a billionaire

on Shelter Island.

I said, “Joe, how does it make you feel

to know that our host only yesterday

may have made more money

than your novel ‘Catch-22’

has earned in its entire history?”

And Joe said, “I’ve got something he can never have.”

And I said, “What on earth could that be, Joe?”

And Joe said, “The knowledge that I’ve got enough.”

Not bad! Rest in peace!”

— Kurt Vonnegut

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 04:12 PM
Thanks for the chance to post Kurt Vonnegut's eulogy to Joseph Heller!

=======================
True story, Word of Honor:

Joseph Heller, an important and funny writer

now dead,

and I were at a party given by a billionaire

on Shelter Island.

I said, “Joe, how does it make you feel

to know that our host only yesterday

may have made more money

than your novel ‘Catch-22’

has earned in its entire history?”

And Joe said, “I’ve got something he can never have.”

And I said, “What on earth could that be, Joe?”

And Joe said, “The knowledge that I’ve got enough.”

Not bad! Rest in peace!”

— Kurt Vonnegut
Getting what your worth and not settling is enough. What you think is enough may not be near enough for your family who spent half their lives without you. Not very many pilots make it past 75 after retiring...the money and retirement you could have made at a better airline would come in real handy for the ones you leave behind once you tip over. It's not all about money as much getting paid what you are worth. Some people in this industry do not think they are worth as much. I am happy making lots of money. It's like fun..never to much.

Rolloutflare
11-02-2018, 04:26 PM
..the money and retirement you could have made at a better airline would come in real handy for the ones you leave behind once you tip over. It's not all about money as much getting paid what you are worth. Some people in this industry do not think they are worth as much. I am happy making lots of money. It's like fun..never to much.

I’m sure there are a bunch of retired Delta and United guys who thought their promised company retirement was always going to be there at the returns promised.

All that retirement money has one thing in common. Someone has a plan to get as much of it away from you, legally and who cares about ethics.

goinaround
11-02-2018, 04:26 PM
Getting what your worth and not settling is enough. What you think is enough may not be near enough for your family who spent half their lives without you. Not very many pilots make it past 75 after retiring...the money and retirement you could have made at a better airline would come in real handy for the ones you leave behind once you tip over. It's not all about money as much getting paid what you are worth. Some people in this industry do not think they are worth as much. I am happy making lots of money. It's like fun..never to much.

You making this argument as an ABX pilot is a little bit....ironic...to this particular thread. Don't you think?

No Land 3
11-02-2018, 04:45 PM
Being happy is #1.

maxjet
11-02-2018, 04:46 PM
Why in world would you be sorry someone planned ahead and does not need to sponge off the goverment. I am also am someone getting ready to retire...thankfully I have a job with a great income and have a retirement and will not be working a part time job or selling real estate when it happens. Just because you retire does not mean you should have to move into a trailer. Invest invest invest then retire and relax....isn't that the way it's supposed to work. I have no problem with someone retiring without a retirement and planning on SSI or moving in with their kids. It's just not for me.

I see no difference in our view points. Why do you? The gym I go to has people in their 80’s working out who are clear eyed and very clear minded. Then there are some people who are in their mid to late 60’s and are in terrible condition. The common theme repeated by them is that they wish they had lived less stressful and more happy lives with less money. They very much regret what they have done to themselves

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 04:58 PM
You making this argument as an ABX pilot is a little bit....ironic...to this particular thread. Don't you think?
The thread is K4 or Atlas..1 pays ok with a new contract. The other pays simular to comuter airline.
I have a retirement.
Also fantastic disability.
Want to compare W2s ...?

goinaround
11-02-2018, 05:03 PM
The thread is K4 or Atlas..1 pays ok with a new contract. The other pays simular to comuter airline.
I have a retirement.
Also fantastic disability.
Want to compare W2s ...?

Well I left ABX for K4.....the comparison is complete. Both in pay and QOL. Sounds like you don't need a contract.....

Fillmore Slim
11-02-2018, 05:06 PM
All that retirement money has one thing in common. Someone has a plan to get as much of it away from you, legally and who cares about ethics.

This is probably the most important sentence ever written on these boards (Foot Stomp). Educate yourself on "stop limit sell orders" for all your 401K holdings, so maybe you'll have a chance once the crooks come for your retirement.

Slim

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 05:41 PM
Well I left ABX for K4.....the comparison is complete. Both in pay and QOL. Sounds like you don't need a contract.....
I could careless....this company refuses to figure out how to staff an airline which means work the same days get extra pay. Fine by me.

goinaround
11-02-2018, 05:51 PM
I could careless....this company refuses to figure out how to staff an airline which means work the same days get extra pay. Fine by me.

Or work waaaaaay more days and get a very little extra pay. After 3 years on reserve making no extra pay......no thanks. Good for you having 29 years of seniority. I did care.

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 05:51 PM
This is probably the most important sentence ever written on these boards (Foot Stomp). Educate yourself on "stop limit sell orders" for all your 401K holdings, so maybe you'll have a chance once the crooks come for your retirement.

Slim
The laws have changed significantly since the Eastern, Delta, United days. The PBGC now grabs assets and Bankruptcy courts require a plan to reorganize without stealing retirement funds. Just like your 401k, profit sharing....nothing is guaranteed....except your bottom sock drawer.

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 05:52 PM
Or work waaaaaay more days and get a very little extra pay. After 3 years on reserve making no extra pay......no thanks. Good for you having 29 years of seniority. I did care.
Care about things you can change.
They are not smart enough to make this change. I cannot...nor am I willing to lose sleep over waiting for a new contract. We are dealing with complete idiots.

goinaround
11-02-2018, 05:58 PM
Care or not it will not change..

Uhhhhh....well yeah, I know. Which makes me wonder why you're preaching to the K4 advocates about how much money you make and how they are stupid for thinking that they are in an OK position. You know that Hete and Soaper read this crap. You're not doing your diminishing pilot group any favors by bragging about how much money you pull down. Get a clue....

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 06:47 PM
Uhhhhh....well yeah, I know. Which makes me wonder why you're preaching to the K4 advocates about how much money you make and how they are stupid for thinking that they are in an OK position. You know that Hete and Soaper read this crap. You're not doing your diminishing pilot group any favors by bragging about how much money you pull down. Get a clue....
The thread was K4 or Atlas....its all about money. ABX is not getting a contract...that will not change. You are giving our management way to much credit....they are not that smart.

goinaround
11-02-2018, 07:04 PM
The thread was K4 or Atlas....its all about money. ABX is not getting a contract...that will not change. You are giving our management way to much credit....they are not that smart.

But you keep putting yourself on a pedestal...... I don't get it. Do yo think someone starting out in cargo would do themselves a favor today by going to ABX over K4? Every captain at ABX has 24-29 years of seniority. I have no idea what you are alluding to.....I am giving your management absolutely no credit. Yes...this is an Atlas vs K4 thread. If you were to throw ABX into the mix...would you suggest ABX? You seem to want to put ABX on the level with FDX and UPS. ABX was the place to go in the early 90's. Times change.......

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 08:00 PM
But you keep putting yourself on a pedestal...... I don't get it. Do yo think someone starting out in cargo would do themselves a favor today by going to ABX over K4? Every captain at ABX has 24-29 years of seniority. I have no idea what you are alluding to.....I am giving your management absolutely no credit. Yes...this is an Atlas vs K4 thread. If you were to throw ABX into the mix...would you suggest ABX? You seem to want to put ABX on the level with FDX and UPS. ABX was the place to go in the early 90's. Times change.......
I think I said that....we are not getting a contract..nor giving up this one which is what management wants.
But in the mean time it pays alot thanks to their lack of management ability.
It is what it is.



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