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View Full Version : Negotiating Committee Resigns


Al Czervik
10-28-2018, 11:23 AM
Ask around.


EMBFlyer
10-28-2018, 11:28 AM
Source?
...

Sliceback
10-28-2018, 01:27 PM
Again?!? Didnít one, some, or all resign earlier this year?


Covfefe
10-28-2018, 02:26 PM
The amount of detail in this thread is amazing!

A330FoodCritic
10-28-2018, 05:33 PM
Come on Al, fill us in.

Arado 234
10-28-2018, 06:01 PM
Again?!? Didnít one, some, or all resign earlier this year?

Was there a union email about that?

Arado 234
10-28-2018, 06:02 PM
The amount of detail in this thread is amazing!

Simply put, we're eff'd!

R57 relay
10-28-2018, 06:43 PM
Why do we need to waste all that time and money on a NC? Can't the president just make a deal with the company?

Sliceback
10-28-2018, 07:07 PM
Apparently a turf battle over who gets their guys on the NC.

Cheddar
10-28-2018, 07:24 PM
I talked to my rep earlier today about this. Hadnít heard they resigned but did hear there was a very strong move to replace them.

I was pretty shocked and now very doubtful that weíre ever going to get this right.

If they have all resigned, Iím saddened by this. Very, very talented people caught in one manís ego trip. We truly are the dumbest group of smart people ever assembled.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A330FoodCritic
10-28-2018, 07:33 PM
Simply put, we're eff'd!

Heard DC's Chaplin just got a NC job offer. :rolleyes:

Sliceback
10-28-2018, 07:42 PM
Heard DC's Chaplin just got a NC job offer. :rolleyes:

Are we supposed to pray for him? Or is he going to pray for us?

A330FoodCritic
10-28-2018, 07:46 PM
Are we supposed to pray for him? Or is he going to pray for us?

Both bro :D

A330FoodCritic
10-28-2018, 08:41 PM
Yes they did, one of DC's friends, he may have been let go but he was on the payroll. There is no control over DC's spending so anything in the future, no matter how implausible, is possible.

Arado 234
10-29-2018, 01:16 AM
Yes they did, one of DC's friends, he may have been let go but he was on the payroll. There is no control over DC's spending so anything in the future, no matter how implausible, is possible.

Please, please someone tell me I am not reading this right and that DD served me decaf this morning! I am afraid I have to quote myself again!

Cheddar
10-29-2018, 03:13 AM
Ask around.



I did, although this may be a tough week for them - no one Iíve talked to confirms this. So unless theyíve decided to resign together and youíre the first to know - I donít think youíre helping out their plight.

Although Dan may have swayed certain elements of the board, his actions are again causing a huge s#tstorm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Al Czervik
10-29-2018, 03:40 AM
I did, although this may be a tough week for them - no one Iíve talked to confirms this. So unless theyíve decided to resign together and youíre the first to know - I donít think youíre helping out their plight.

Although Dan may have swayed certain elements of the board, his actions are again causing a huge s#tstorm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I tried to change the thread title. I edited my original post after speaking to a member a second time.

bigscrillywilli
10-29-2018, 05:27 AM
Gonna go a different direction than survey results? Who got to Carey? What happened to all the comms, donít extend, donít float??

Sliceback
10-29-2018, 06:02 AM
Yes they did, one of DC's friends, he may have been let go but he was on the payroll. There is no control over DC's spending so anything in the future, no matter how implausible, is possible.

Actually the friend of a committee member that Dan likes. DC supposedly pushed the BOD to give him G2 CA pay. The BOD said NFW.

Supposedly given pay that was just below the limit that required a second NO to approve($5000 limit).

Committee member was the same guy that DC cancelled the veterans charity contribution for and used that money to support the committee members sons football league. Supposedly committee member was unaware of the trade.

I might be mistaken about where the veterans money went. That contribution was cancelled. It might have gone to a secretary’s daughter’s charity instead that APA, or at least DC using APA money, supported. < true story.

It was all explained in the APA comm releases, BOD base emails, and domiciles meetings when it occurred. < fake story. It was never mentioned.

justfun
10-29-2018, 07:36 AM
Each year at the annual BOD meeting the negotiating committee submits their resignation as per union policy. The make up of the committee can change or remain the same.



Just FYI. :)

jcountry
10-29-2018, 07:38 AM
How much more BS are we gonna put up with before recall this clown?

Arado 234
10-29-2018, 09:30 AM
How much more BS are we gonna put up with before recall this clown?

I lost count of his BS. Could someone please list his BS "achievements"?

A330FoodCritic
10-29-2018, 03:22 PM
Actually the friend of a committee member that Dan likes. DC supposedly pushed the BOD to give him G2 CA pay. The BOD said NFW.

Supposedly given pay that was just below the limit that required a second NO to approve($5000 limit).

Committee member was the same guy that DC cancelled the veterans charity contribution for and used that money to support the committee members sons football league. Supposedly committee member was unaware of the trade.

I might be mistaken about where the veterans money went. That contribution was cancelled. It might have gone to a secretary’s daughter’s charity instead that APA, or at least DC using APA money, supported. < true story.

It was all explained in the APA comm releases, BOD base emails, and domiciles meetings when it occurred. < fake story. It was never mentioned.

Thanks Slice you are correct and the secretary's charity I believe involved $3000 for bikes, the football charity was $5000, and the two ads in The Irish Times were $30,000 a piece.

Sliceback
10-29-2018, 05:05 PM
The Irish Time ads were $60-63K combined. I forget the exact amount.

The Dublin boys trip was $33,000.

Itís all on the APA Financials page. Takes some time to look for it.

A330FoodCritic
10-29-2018, 05:30 PM
That's where I found them a while ago, sent a sound off, the Treasurer did respond that only DC could answer my questions, he chose not to respond.

Arado 234
10-30-2018, 03:03 AM
That's where I found them a while ago, sent a sound off, the Treasurer did respond that only DC could answer my questions, he chose not to respond.

Why would he? You and I are nothing but line peons.

Route66
10-30-2018, 02:31 PM
There was a dues increase over the summer. Maybe there should be another dues increase. I suggest 10% of gross.

A330FoodCritic
10-30-2018, 05:11 PM
This is what I heard:

The NC was appointed for a specific amount of time and now they are going to appoint a new NC which may or may not include those who have been working on it.

From the Philly Town Hall teleconference, it sounds like DC wants more control and/or input to the NC.

A321
10-30-2018, 05:13 PM
A lot of this is rumor and overreaction. Just relax and let the due process work. They are not completely redoing the negotiating committee.


Relax!

Arado 234
10-31-2018, 01:04 AM
[...]

Relax!

You're talking about APA here!

Just saying.

jcountry
10-31-2018, 02:58 AM
Why are we putting up with one more second of this *******?

He should have been recalled months ago. Every single day brings more damage.

Al Czervik
10-31-2018, 03:40 AM
Why are we putting up with one more second of this *******?

He should have been recalled months ago. Every single day brings more damage.

Is DC the next TW for the BTL crowd?

Cheddar
10-31-2018, 06:22 AM
Is DC the next TW for the BTL crowd?



Lol. We need a bogeyman this time of year. At least Tom would answer soundoffs/texts/emails. Didnít always agree with them but he was a lot more accessible.

On a different note, I think the issue with those of us loosely associated with BTL is that the new (CONSPIRACY!!!) NC will be directed towards different goals than the 1000ís of surveys and emails overwhelmingly (apparently) indicated.

You know, if only certain APA NOís could communicate that we were indeed going to follow the Ďwillí of the line pilots to get an industry leading contract, it might go a looooooong way in setting the Ďkidsí down. Or you could agree with the LGA chair and say that 4000 pilots are just complaining and donít deserve full representation.

Idk


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Al Czervik
10-31-2018, 06:58 AM
Lol. We need a bogeyman this time of year. At least Tom would answer soundoffs/texts/emails. Didn’t always agree with them but he was a lot more accessible.

On a different note, I think the issue with those of us loosely associated with BTL is that the new (CONSPIRACY!!!) NC will be directed towards different goals than the 1000’s of surveys and emails overwhelmingly (apparently) indicated.

You know, if only certain APA NO’s could communicate that we were indeed going to follow the ‘will’ of the line pilots to get an industry leading contract, it might go a looooooong way in setting the ‘kids’ down. Or you could agree with the LGA chair and say that 4000 pilots are just complaining and don’t deserve full representation.

Idk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Makes sense but... Didn’t APA get help previously with negotiations they decided to ignore? Also, I think the “kids” will be running the show sooner than later. If DC produces an ILC the kids will support his efforts. If things are ignored he’ll be #1 on the list to go.

jcountry
10-31-2018, 10:13 AM
Lol. We need a bogeyman this time of year. At least Tom would answer soundoffs/texts/emails. Didnít always agree with them but he was a lot more accessible.

On a different note, I think the issue with those of us loosely associated with BTL is that the new (CONSPIRACY!!!) NC will be directed towards different goals than the 1000ís of surveys and emails overwhelmingly (apparently) indicated.

You know, if only certain APA NOís could communicate that we were indeed going to follow the Ďwillí of the line pilots to get an industry leading contract, it might go a looooooong way in setting the Ďkidsí down. Or you could agree with the LGA chair and say that 4000 pilots are just complaining and donít deserve full representation.

Idk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah.

APA is great with representing exactly what people want.

Especially when someone goes and unilaterally negotiates concessions-during a time of extreme leverage.

Concessions from our crap contract.

Great track record for that one!

Arado 234
10-31-2018, 10:30 AM
Yeah.

APA is great with representing exactly what people want.

Especially when someone goes and unilaterally negotiates concessions-during a time of extreme leverage.

Concessions from our crap contract.

Great track record for that one!

I hate to tell you but the majority of LAA pilots didn't even realize that those were concessions.

Buzzlightyear
10-31-2018, 12:10 PM
A lot of this is rumor and overreaction. Just relax and let the due process work. They are not completely redoing the negotiating committee.


Relax!

They may not throw them all out but when a segment of members are being targeted and under represented then the members of the NC that have the ear of that under represented group get tossed out to be replaced by yes men for top leadership this usually leads to an uproar.

Many of us new guys expected to leave behind the regional crap contracts only to get here to realize as a junior NB guy we will need to wait just a little longer until weíre senior ďenoughĒ to enjoy the WB tilted work rule contract that exists here.

drinksonme
10-31-2018, 12:13 PM
I get that the BOD is following the bylaws on disbanding and then remaking the NC.....but it is a stupid bylaw. If they are going to disband a committee each year, then they themselves should have to do the same. Disband and re-vote every year the BOD members. Current bylaws give the BOD way too much control of the committees, and thus pushes the pilot group, whom they should be representing and not dictating like they do now, further away from being an actual union of PILOTS!!!

The whole C&B of APA needs to be amended and rewritten. It is outdated and a stupid practice of ďancestor worshipĒ this APA does. It was written decades ago by senior CAís who lived in a different time. APA needs adapt to today and not follow now flawed guidelines of yesteryear. APA is too big for its own good now. Back when it started, American Airlines employed approximately 1800 pilots. Then, an own shop union might have made sense. Today, itís way out of touch and doesnít properly represent a group of 15,000 pilots. Either adapt or change unions. Much of the C&B create many of the issues within the BOD and union as a whole.

Iowa Farm Boy
10-31-2018, 12:53 PM
Each year at the annual BOD meeting the negotiating committee submits their resignation as per union policy. The make up of the committee can change or remain the same.


This is one of many structural flaws of APA. WHY would a bylaw promote turnover in a committee which by itís very nature takes months to spool up on and years to conduct their assigned task?

If it werenít for agency shop Iím not sure Iíd join because Iím sure not getting my moneyís worth.

jcountry
10-31-2018, 01:05 PM
This is one of many structural flaws of APA. WHY would a bylaw promote turnover in a committee which by itís very nature takes months to spool up on and years to conduct their assigned task?

If it werenít for agency shop Iím not sure Iíd join because Iím sure not getting my moneyís worth.

We may have that choice one day.

The recent Supreme Court decision regarding government unions and mandatory dues may affect other unions eventually.

The putzes on the BOD should be doing everything possible to make everyone happy-especially those of us who will be in the majority soon.

Sliceback
10-31-2018, 04:17 PM
We may have that choice one day.

The recent Supreme Court decision regarding government unions and mandatory dues may affect other unions eventually.

The putzes on the BOD should be doing everything possible to make everyone happy-especially those of us who will be in the majority soon.

The MIA vote had 36% or 37% participation. Out of a base of 2200 that meant 9% additional votes by the BTL could have changed the entire vote.

You guys have the ability to run the union now, you're just not getting it done.

Arado 234
11-01-2018, 03:58 AM
The MIA vote had 36% or 37% participation. Out of a base of 2200 that meant 9% additional votes by the BTL could have changed the entire vote.

You guys have the ability to run the union now, you're just not getting it done.

I wonder if the low participation has to do with the fact that you have to mail it.

I heard that TW was against online voting, because he was told that the FNGs are less likely to vote by mail than the old timers.

Sliceback
11-01-2018, 04:24 AM
I wonder if the low participation has to do with the fact that you have to mail it.

I heard that TW was against online voting, because he was told that the FNGs are less likely to vote by mail than the old timers.

TW was also against Halloween. And Christmas. And beer. And fireworks on New Year's Eve. Fourth of July? Don't even bring it up.

Sliceback
11-01-2018, 04:27 AM
I wonder if the low participation has to do with the fact that you have to mail it.

I heard that TW was against online voting, because he was told that the FNGs are less likely to vote by mail than the old timers.

Here's the real, behind the scenes story - TW knew that senior guys would struggle using a PC or tablet to use something called the internet. And he knew younger guys would struggle licking stamps.

The election complaint APA lost years ago has nothing to do with how we vote today. Nothing. It was all TW's fault!

Varks
11-01-2018, 04:49 AM
Slice. That was funny.

The voting turnout in Miami was very low. Electronic ballots would help. I think it may have been a combination of new hires having no idea who the candidates are, old guys on the precipice of retirement and donít bother voting, Pilots fed up and donít care anymore.

None of them are good excuses. It isnít too hard to ask coworkers for their opinion. When in doubt vote for those closest to your seniority. Just vote please.

We need to retain our current negotiating committee.

Varks
11-01-2018, 04:56 AM
I listened to a town hall this week and it was said that firing the negotiators generated a large number of sound offs. The problem was they were mostly very junior and DC and friends said it was not how the majority felt. I think the word was out on a Facebook page and that spurred the sound offs. Like many old people I am not on social media and had no idea what went on. CnR is rapidly becoming a legacy AA pilot only board. No one I fly with reads it. They are on Facebook.

Arado 234
11-01-2018, 05:10 AM
[...]
Pilots fed up and donít care anymore.



I think that is the other problem. I had a hard time choosing my candidate. It all seems the same blabla, and end the end of the day AA pilots all look over to ATL. At least the ones that don't live in the AA / DFW bubble.

Edit: I might also have to do with how people feel working here. I filled out American Voice and couldn't find myself leaving one positive point of feedback. I wasn't angry. Just honest.

jcountry
11-01-2018, 06:53 AM
The MIA vote had 36% or 37% participation. Out of a base of 2200 that meant 9% additional votes by the BTL could have changed the entire vote.

You guys have the ability to run the union now, you're just not getting it done.

IDK.

Starting to see some success. DFW chair got booted.

Carey better start packing.

jcountry
11-01-2018, 06:55 AM
I listened to a town hall this week and it was said that firing the negotiators generated a large number of sound offs. The problem was they were mostly very junior and DC and friends said it was not how the majority felt. I think the word was out on a Facebook page and that spurred the sound offs. Like many old people I am not on social media and had no idea what went on. CnR is rapidly becoming a legacy AA pilot only board. No one I fly with reads it. They are on Facebook.

Thatís ok.

DC can actually see all about line pilots and how they feel when he becomes one again.

aa73
11-01-2018, 07:12 AM
I was told that any officer/BOD elections are never done by electronic ballots, even at ALPA. Has to do with the possibility of e-corruption. I believe these are standards set by the American arbitration association.

Al Czervik
11-01-2018, 08:14 AM
Carey better start packing.

This contract will be the test. The young group will either turn and support him or it will be the final nail in the coffin.

Arado 234
11-01-2018, 09:18 AM
This contract will be the test. The young group will either turn and support him or it will be the final nail in the coffin.

If he gets booted, then what? Another LAA old timer with lotsa promises?

I feel like being in that Tom Cruise movie.

Al Czervik
11-01-2018, 09:20 AM
If he gets booted, then what? Another LAA old timer with lotsa promises?

I feel like being in that Tom Cruise movie.

We’re gonna put you in there.

Arado 234
11-01-2018, 10:18 AM
Weíre gonna put you in there.

I am getting tired of promises, convoluted APA emails while Delta pulls away from us. It seems APA is a well-oiled machine that eliminates anything for the better and protects G4 Captains. It's kinda telling if new members with great attitude resign frustrated a couple of months later.

jcountry
11-01-2018, 11:41 AM
I am getting tired of promises, convoluted APA emails while Delta pulls away from us. It seems APA is a well-oiled machine that eliminates anything for the better and protects G4 Captains. It's kinda telling if new members with great attitude resign frustrated a couple of months later.

Thatís OK.

G4 captains wonít have any voting power in about 2 years.....

We will take over, and we have a gooooood memory.

APA should have a tiny bit of foresight here, they need to be mindful of the needs of the entire pilot group, not just widebody guys close to retirement.

Name User
11-01-2018, 12:31 PM
We got ACD, that did not benefit G4 guys. It really was only beneficial to G2 and maybe a few G3 trips.

UPTme
11-01-2018, 12:35 PM
False. Several 777 trips benefit. JFK and MIA.

jcountry
11-01-2018, 02:10 PM
We got ACD, that did not benefit G4 guys. It really was only beneficial to G2 and maybe a few G3 trips.

The other side of that coin is reschedules/reassignments..... None of that needed to happen.

That situation should have been a Ďwiní for us all!

Thedude
11-01-2018, 04:31 PM
A lot of this is rumor and overreaction. Just relax and let the due process work. They are not completely redoing the negotiating committee.


Relax!


No, they are just trying to remove the ones that stand up to DC.

DC is trying to stack the NC so he can get that base hit he wants with some short term gains during his tenure. We have already seen how they "handle" negotiations. Cost us a lot more than we gained.

APA- same as it ever was.

Name User
11-01-2018, 05:49 PM
No, they are just trying to remove the ones that stand up to DC.

DC is trying to stack the NC so he can get that base hit he wants with some short term gains during his tenure. We have already seen how they "handle" negotiations. Cost us a lot more than we gained.

APA- same as it ever was.

That is the best way to play it though. Base hits are better than striking out swinging for the fences, which is what the APA has done over and over again.

jcountry
11-01-2018, 06:32 PM
That is the best way to play it though. Base hits are better than striking out swinging for the fences, which is what the APA has done over and over again.

What fences??

The best this union has ever pulled is an attempt at a bunt-which ended with a painful shot to the nuts.

Name User
11-01-2018, 07:35 PM
What fences??

The best this union has ever pulled is an attempt at a bunt-which ended with a painful shot to the nuts.

Pre 9/11 they kept holding out for more, you know what happened and they got stuck with their crap contract for how long?

APA has a history of wanting it all or nothing. Delta however takes small bites at the pie. Just look at their JCBA asks, it was hilarious and the company then said GFY.

You guys put Delta on a pedestal so much, maybe we should negotiate like them too?

Name User
11-01-2018, 07:36 PM
False. Several 777 trips benefit. JFK and MIA.

Ok, way to miss the point but super good job with the rebuttal.

Sliceback
11-01-2018, 07:54 PM
IDK.

Starting to see some success. DFW chair got booted.

Carey better start packing.

TW was probably DCís biggest nemesis on the BOD. TW was replaced by a guy whoís entire campaign flyer was about him and DC being buddies. If you think DC should start packing how does strengthening his position make sense?

jcountry
11-02-2018, 05:38 AM
TW was probably DCís biggest nemesis on the BOD. TW was replaced by a guy whoís entire campaign flyer was about him and DC being buddies. If you think DC should start packing how does strengthening his position make sense?

Wow!

Thatís some serious revisionist history!

TW is a complete tool, and did everything in his power to try and wreck any progress.

I donít care about whoís buddies nearly as much as I care about track record, and I canít think of any bigger monster than TW.

bigscrillywilli
11-02-2018, 10:56 AM
Entire committee to be replaced!

Name User
11-02-2018, 12:11 PM
Entire committee to be replaced!

Call me crazy but I'm not jumping to conclusions. DC, while doing some not very legit things like putting a priest on payroll and donating to wealthy football leagues, has gotten us a lot more than either the West, East, or South guys ever dreamed of getting outside contract negotiations.

So, maybe let it play out.

Carlsbad
11-02-2018, 01:45 PM
So, let me get this straight. We had the best negotiating committee that this airline has ever had, and we just trashed it? We are so fooked. Oh well, hereís to being #3 until more morons retire.

Arado 234
11-02-2018, 03:03 PM
I am beginning to wonder if this is a generational issue.

Laker24
11-02-2018, 03:43 PM
DC had nothing to do with replacing the negotiating Committee. That was a board of directors function and if you are not happy then contact your rep. Iím curious what made the last NC ďthe best one weíve ever had?Ē

Buzzlightyear
11-02-2018, 06:00 PM
DC had nothing to do with replacing the negotiating Committee. That was a board of directors function and if you are not happy then contact your rep. Iím curious what made the last NC ďthe best one weíve ever had?Ē
Hundreds and hundreds of sound offs went out all week long. We did contact the leadership and our reps. A certain seniority demographic was partially ridiculed and marginalized during domicile town halls this week as a result. Responses to soundoffs Iíve seen from coworkers from our reps were anywhere from thereís nothing going on like you think to downright belittling.

To say DC had nothing to do with this is comical. He sets the tone and pushes the strategy.

EMBFlyer
11-02-2018, 06:59 PM
APA is broken and there's no way to fix it.

flyinawa
11-02-2018, 07:02 PM
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Well, at least theyíre consistent.

jcountry
11-02-2018, 07:51 PM
Hundreds and hundreds of sound offs went out all week long. We did contact the leadership and our reps. A certain seniority demographic was partially ridiculed and marginalized during domicile town halls this week as a result. Responses to soundoffs Iíve seen from coworkers from our reps were anywhere from thereís nothing going on like you think to downright belittling.

To say DC had nothing to do with this is comical. He sets the tone and pushes the strategy.

He does a lot more than set the tone.

Just look at how many BOD members have resigned over the past year or so.

That ainít a coincidence.

Al Czervik
11-03-2018, 04:36 AM
APA is broken and there's no way to fix it.

Time will fix APA. There is an ungodly level of dysfunction that will be gone in ten years. APA and line pilots.

jcountry
11-03-2018, 10:19 AM
Time will fix APA. There is an ungodly level of dysfunction that will be gone in ten years. APA and line pilots.

True.

Man people pretend that the structure of APA is the problem.

The problem is a bunch of self centered folks who are ****ed that their careers havenít gone the way they should have.

Now that many of them are starting to retire, things will improve. I think they will improve quickly. In just a couple years, the landscape should be very different

nAAtive
11-03-2018, 10:29 AM
DC had nothing to do with replacing the negotiating Committee. That was a board of directors function and if you are not happy then contact your rep. Iím curious what made the last NC ďthe best one weíve ever had?Ē

Easy. It was led by someone who wasnít LAA and actually understood work rules.

RhinoBallAuto
11-03-2018, 10:30 AM
The problem is a bunch of self centered folks who are ****ed that their careers havenít gone the way they should have.

Now that many of them are starting to retire, things will improve. I think they will improve quickly. In just a couple years, the landscape should be very different

Of course, the lingering question remains... How lasting will their legacy actually be? Which is to say if they steer C2020 off course, how long do the rest of us have to live under it?

jcountry
11-03-2018, 10:45 AM
Of course, the lingering question remains... How lasting will their legacy actually be? Which is to say if they steer C2020 off course, how long do the rest of us have to live under it?

True.

Which is why it should be delayed as long as possible if itís not excellent.

Never vote yes to the first TA. Especially when it comes from this turd fest of a union

Buzzlightyear
11-03-2018, 11:41 AM
I try to stay away from generalizations but in contractual negotiations a sound rejection on the first offer/TA is usually the best course of action.

Frip
11-03-2018, 05:15 PM
What is a BTL?

Which seniority group was particularly ridiculed?

Just curious

jcountry
11-03-2018, 05:48 PM
What is a BTL?

Which seniority group was particularly ridiculed?

Just curious

Ask McLovin.

He will tell you, but only if you know the secret handshake.

Carlsbad
11-03-2018, 06:38 PM
DC had nothing to do with replacing the negotiating Committee. That was a board of directors function and if you are not happy then contact your rep. Iím curious what made the last NC ďthe best one weíve ever had?Ē

How long have you been here? Weíre at the bottom of the majors for a reason. APA is structurally flawed. As much as I dislike ALPA, they are a far better union. I had hopes that APA would finally accomplish something we could all stand behind and be proud of. That ship sailed. Until thereís enough new blood to oust the crooks in bed with management, weíre relegated to last place. Donít be surprised when the next contract is hailed as a win, but is a total poop sandwich.

Laker24
11-03-2018, 07:07 PM
Then vote no. Get the word out. Make your views known. Maybe even volunteer or run for office. There are so many people whining about ďthe senior Gr4 Captains.Ē They represent roughly 10% of the Pilot group. If they are directing policy itís due to the apathy of the junior demographic.

I would prefer ALPA as well. But until I get off my butt and take steps to make ALPA a reality I donít really have grounds to complain about APA

Frip
11-04-2018, 04:04 AM
Ask McLovin.

He will tell you, but only if you know the secret handshake.


What's a McLovin?

Why do we need a secret handshake?

R57 relay
11-04-2018, 05:56 AM
What's a McLovin?

Why do we need a secret handshake?


Not sure why everyone is so coy about this.

Pretty sure BTL means below the line. But is it the LUS
East fb group, or LUS west post SLI group?

Regionalsuck
11-04-2018, 07:32 AM
BTL is basically for everyone newer to AA, mostly new hires helping new hires navigate the contract and scheduling issues with quick responses to questions and such. Plus other company related discussions. Without the infighting and arguing of CnR forums. I think it spans around the bottom 4000 or so of the seniority list, a few members are now holding narrow body CA I believe with the last few bids. 1700+ current members. I have found it to be really helpful with questions and issues that have come up in my first year here. Nothing nefarious about the BTL group. lol.



About This Group
Description
BelowTheLine is the leading community of mainline AA new hire pilots with a focus on mutual support and crowdsourcing answers to common operational & contractual questions. Pilots in this group must have joined newAA after the US-AWA or US-AMR mergers.

Refer other new hire AA pilots by helping them search for 'BelowTheLine' or with this weblink: www.facebook.com/groups/BTLPilots

===JOIN REQUIREMENTS===
1) Members MUST be current or newly hired mainline AA flight crew.
2) Do not assume we know who you are.
3) Complete the verification join questions or join requests will be denied.

Once approved, kindly review the first "pinned post" & familiarize yourself with group rules and scope of discussion. We ask that you be respectful, professional and cooperative.

viper548
11-04-2018, 07:33 AM
Not sure why everyone is so coy about this.

Pretty sure BTL means below the line. But is it the LUS
East fb group, or LUS west post SLI group?


The first rule of BTL is don't talk about BTL.

viper548
11-04-2018, 07:41 AM
BTL is a facebook group made up of relatively new pilots, though some members are now group 2 CAs. The group is a resource to get answers about how to navigate doing our job. Basically it's like the AArena or C&R but without all of the crap you have to wade through to get helpful information.

Frip
11-04-2018, 07:43 AM
Ahhhh....
Thanks and good for/on them.
Sorry y'all don't feel like ya' can turn to or rely on the old farts for that sort if advice or help or information.
C&R is a cesspool, but I think most of us would honestly try to help anyone, regardless of any lines.

R57 relay
11-04-2018, 07:54 AM
Ahhhh....
Thanks and good for/on them.
Sorry y'all don't feel like ya' can turn to or rely on the old farts for that sort if advice or help or information.
C&R is a cesspool, but I think most of us would honestly try to help anyone, regardless of any lines.

I think it started when US started hiring new pilots after almost a decade. They had questions most of hadn't thought of in a long time. It was a great resource for them.

I've heard former AWA F/Os use the term for their SLI placement, that's why I wasn't sure which one.

jcountry
11-04-2018, 08:36 AM
Ahhhh....
Thanks and good for/on them.
Sorry y'all don't feel like ya' can turn to or rely on the old farts for that sort if advice or help or information.
C&R is a cesspool, but I think most of us would honestly try to help anyone, regardless of any lines.

It’s just a well-moderated group. No politics, religion, east/west garbage allowed. No personal attacks.

People on other forums crap the place up with flame and stupid political rants. BTL is just a place which is well-moderated enough that you don’t have to put up with that stuff.

The AArena could be just as good, but the moderators don’t seem to be as agressive.

Frip
11-04-2018, 12:42 PM
Ahhh...

Cool

isuguy
01-23-2019, 08:39 PM
So from an outsider not knowing how the whole contract thing works, confirm the talks are in progress? How long does it usually take til something goes to a vote as far as a new pilot contract goes?

PRS Guitars
01-23-2019, 10:06 PM
So from an outsider not knowing how the whole contract thing works, confirm the talks are in progress? How long does it usually take til something goes to a vote as far as a new pilot contract goes?

Could be a few weeks (not likely) could be years (also not likely IMO). I think it will be done by the end of summer, and will be disappointing. Iíve also been wrong on here before, so take it through that filter.

Bob Loblaw
01-24-2019, 05:24 AM
Could be a few weeks (not likely) could be years (also not likely IMO). I think it will be done by the end of summer, and will be disappointing. Iíve also been wrong on here before, so take it through that filter.

I agree with you that it will be disappointing, but I don't think it will be done by end of summer.

mainlineAF
01-24-2019, 05:57 AM
It depends which way the BOD goes. Thereís the hardcore usapa guys who want a total contract redo and the other camp who wants a solid base hit. It depends on what the guys in the middle decide. If the base hit guys win out i think we see a TA late summer/early fall.

I wonít judge any TA before we get solid facts. Except scope. ANY scope gives are a non-starter.

Al Czervik
01-24-2019, 09:16 AM
I agree with you that it will be disappointing

Jesus! this thought process needs to change.

EMBFlyer
01-24-2019, 09:18 AM
It depends which way the BOD goes. Thereís the hardcore usapa guys who want a total contract redo and the other camp who wants a solid base hit. It depends on what the guys in the middle decide. If the base hit guys win out i think we see a TA late summer/early fall.

I wonít judge any TA before we get solid facts. Except scope. ANY scope gives are a non-starter.

There are only two ex-USAPA guys still on the board...and I imagine one of them will be keeping a low profile for awhile.

DarinFred
01-24-2019, 09:37 AM
Frear the Floater is running for Prez!

seafeye
01-24-2019, 10:54 AM
I just glanced through the most recent union email about Section 6....

Under Section 3 Pay:

Industry-leading hourly rates of pay with meaningful increases above current and future pay rates for comparable aircraft types at Delta and United
ē Re-establish hourly pay rate scales by aircraft type
ē Meaningful annual increases in hourly rates of pay, including on the amendable date
ē Address income gaps associated with differences in profit-sharing plans at American versus Delta and United
ē Increase international override
ē Provide retroactivity of pay rates and benefits from the amendable date
ē Premium pay for flying on holidays and coverage days



Arenít people not taking upgrades because international is so much more of a better gig?
Shouldnít we be closing the gap between Domestic and international?

deus ex machina
01-24-2019, 11:16 AM
Do you guys always negotiate in public?

RhinoBallAuto
01-24-2019, 12:30 PM
Do you guys always negotiate in public?

APA didn't release the details of the openers to membership until after they were delivered to AA. No harm in sharing it now

Gone Flying
01-24-2019, 12:49 PM
I just glanced through the most recent union email about Section 6....

Under Section 3 Pay:





Arenít people not taking upgrades because international is so much more of a better gig?
Shouldnít we be closing the gap between Domestic and international?

intl override for FO's is only like $4 if you have been there 12 years. vs at spirit intl override is 8% of your hourly rate. they could also be talking about applying it to all flying outside lower 48 (currently carveouts like Canada and Mexico) look at the hourly override at UA, DL, FDX and NK and see what other options are out there.

deus ex machina
01-24-2019, 01:26 PM
APA didn't release the details of the openers to membership until after they were delivered to AA. No harm in sharing it now

Not what I meant...

Also, APA was using ALPA Contract Services until summer of last year... why stop?

nAAtive
01-24-2019, 04:15 PM
intl override for FO's is only like $4 if you have been there 12 years. vs at spirit intl override is 8% of your hourly rate. they could also be talking about applying it to all flying outside lower 48 (currently carveouts like Canada and Mexico) look at the hourly override at UA, DL, FDX and NK and see what other options are out there.
Stuff like that is important but itís only one slice of the pie. How big the pie is whatís most important.

Name User
01-24-2019, 06:11 PM
Reminds me of the guys who continuously ***** about group 3 going away. Brah, we make more on group 2 than you did by far on group 3. Let it go. And the difference is small anyway. Plus we are getting group 4 to replace some of the lost group 3's.

Reminds me of a cat with a laser, that is all they see, they can't grasp the bigger picture.

This being tax season and all I'd really like to focus on increase that aren't taxed...example max out per diem to the fullest. More days off / higher fail rate. Maybe simplify the pay schedule between narrow body and wide vs various groups. Also add an ESOP that is industry standard such as 15% off purchases.

PRS Guitars
01-24-2019, 07:18 PM
... Maybe simplify the pay schedule between narrow body and wide vs various groups. Also add an ESOP that is industry standard such as 15% off purchases.

Looks like they might be going in the opposite direction. Trying to get rid of pay banding and have pay for every type of plane.

Name User
01-24-2019, 08:57 PM
Looks like they might be going in the opposite direction. Trying to get rid of pay banding and have pay for every type of plane.

Of course they are. The APA would make drinking a beer complicated.

aa73
01-25-2019, 03:08 AM
Of course they are. The APA would make drinking a beer complicated.

Pay banding was a concession. Iíd say APA is spot on in wanting to go back to aircraft specific pay.

Dobbs18
01-25-2019, 05:08 AM
Pay banding was a concession. Iíd say APA is spot on in wanting to go back to aircraft specific pay.

So if you are on rsv for the 32F, what rate does your guarantee get paid at? Assuming we have separate rates for the 319/320/321...ex. You fly 20hrs on the 319 and 20hrs on the 321 for the month, you donít break guarantee, so what pay rate is used for your SC/LC pay?

Name User
01-25-2019, 05:38 AM
So if you are on rsv for the 32F, what rate does your guarantee get paid at? Assuming we have separate rates for the 319/320/321...ex. You fly 20hrs on the 319 and 20hrs on the 321 for the month, you donít break guarantee, so what pay rate is used for your SC/LC pay?

There will be a quadratic formula to compute it further compounding pay issues.

787-8 vs 9
777-200 vs 300
319/320/321

So separate pay based on equipment. Stupid.

The APA doesn't understand that complication adds friction to our contract and adds cost. That cost is directly taken out of our pay. Anything that can be done to simplify the contract will directly translate into higher pay or better work rules assuming they can negotiate.

EMBFlyer
01-25-2019, 05:47 AM
So if you are on rsv for the 32F, what rate does your guarantee get paid at? Assuming we have separate rates for the 319/320/321...ex. You fly 20hrs on the 319 and 20hrs on the 321 for the month, you donít break guarantee, so what pay rate is used for your SC/LC pay?

I'm guessing they'd use a blended rate like United and (gasp) Delta has.

seafeye
01-25-2019, 06:21 AM
Do you guys always negotiate in public?

A billion dollar contract. Iím thinking Parker is spending a lot of money researching how he can get the cheapest contract for the longest period of time. Anything we post here is yesterdayís news. These guys are will always be 4 moves ahead. We are playing their game with their cards. Parker is going to try get a contract that will pass by 51%. His research is probably already completed, and it will be signed early if it saves him money. If he thinks itís a 49%. Then he will throw in a $2000 signing bonus.

aa73
01-25-2019, 07:06 AM
There will be a quadratic formula to compute it further compounding pay issues.

787-8 vs 9
777-200 vs 300
319/320/321

So separate pay based on equipment. Stupid.

The APA doesn't understand that complication adds friction to our contract and adds cost. That cost is directly taken out of our pay. Anything that can be done to simplify the contract will directly translate into higher pay or better work rules assuming they can negotiate.

No, it’s not stupid. That’s a very simplistic view. It’s only stupid if APA allows it to become stupid. I.e. if they leverage that in exchange for other things. Which they won’t, if they’re smart. No need to.

Using your logic, if APA decides to “complicate” LTD, profit sharing, or (fill in the QOL-enhancing blank), they have to trade it for something else. That is a concessionist’s argument.

Aircraft-based pay rates have long been industry standard and ensure that you don’t get paid the same rate for flying an A321 as you do for an A319. Going to pay banding put an end to that and put a big grin on managements face.

Name User
01-25-2019, 08:08 AM
No, itís not stupid. Thatís a very simplistic view. Itís only stupid if APA allows it to become stupid. I.e. if they leverage that in exchange for other things. Which they wonít, if theyíre smart. No need to.

Using your logic, if APA decides to ďcomplicateĒ LTD, profit sharing, or (fill in the QOL-enhancing blank), they have to trade it for something else. That is a concessionistís argument.

Aircraft-based pay rates have long been industry standard and ensure that you donít get paid the same rate for flying an A321 as you do for an A319. Going to pay banding put an end to that and put a big grin on managements face.

Who cares if you get paid the same for flying a 319 if it's more than you got for the 321 previously? Sounds like a win to me. But look over here...a laser dot!!!

The money comes out of the same pot. You could make an onerous system for staffing that generates lots of work on the Co side and costs a lot of money but does little to improve the bottom line of pilots.

Dobbs18
01-25-2019, 08:22 AM
I'm guessing they'd use a blended rate like United and (gasp) Delta has.

so kind of like what we have now....aircraft group pay?

swaayze
01-25-2019, 08:34 AM
This being tax season and all I'd really like to focus on increase that aren't taxed...example max out per diem to the fullest.

Per Diem IS taxed, always has been, though some was not-withheld. Was partially deductible but not anymore. Thatís why thereís mention of Per Diem changes and Tax Implications. Need to significantly increase rates to make up for lost deductions on top of inflationary increases.

aa73
01-25-2019, 08:34 AM
Who cares if you get paid the same for flying a 319 if it's more than you got for the 321 previously? Sounds like a win to me. But look over here...a laser dot!!!

The money comes out of the same pot. You could make an onerous system for staffing that generates lots of work on the Co side and costs a lot of money but does little to improve the bottom line of pilots.

I care... because today with aircraft specific pay I could be getting a lot more money for flying a 321.

Your logic is based on the rates we used to have, which just happened to have paid a lot less than the blended rate today. Ok, fine. That’s marketplace supply and demand. everyone’s pay went up. However, that still doesn’t justify the fact that, with today’s leverage, we could probably be flying the 321 for $7-$10/hr more than the 319.

Put another way... had we stayed with aircraft specific pay rates, the 321 would have paid more than what group 2 is paying today.

Blended group pay is a leftover product of the BK contract. It benefits the company, definitely not us.

wiz5422
01-25-2019, 10:24 AM
abc7chicago.com/careers/walmart-raises-truck-driver-pay-to-nearly-$90k-hiring-hundreds-/510628

Wonder what Pilots should be paid? Something to consider during these next negotatians.

Name User
01-25-2019, 11:02 AM
Per Diem IS taxed, always has been, though some was not-withheld. Was partially deductible but not anymore. That’s why there’s mention of Per Diem changes and Tax Implications. Need to significantly increase rates to make up for lost deductions on top of inflationary increases.

Your understanding of the tax code and what was deducted is lacking.

The only per diem that is taxed is when you do day trips. This has not changed.

What was deducted was the difference between what the company underpaid us based on federal M&IE rates. Example, we get $50/day but overnight in a city that the feds say should cost $75, we could take that $25 difference, multiply by 80%, and deduct that as a business expense.

Lemme guess, you also did your own taxes and ended up with tens of thousands in per diem deductions lol.

Overall tax rates fell, for most they are break even if not slightly ahead and no more need to "document" your $1 van driver tips, dry cleaning or "shoe shine". Either way my household is paying 42% in taxes this year, every dollar I make I lose $0.40, I'd love to get more per diem and less pay. And for most they never came close to actually coming out of pocket on the deductions we took, it was kinda a scam.

Name User
01-25-2019, 11:13 AM
I care... because today with aircraft specific pay I could be getting a lot more money for flying a 321.

Your logic is based on the rates we used to have, which just happened to have paid a lot less than the blended rate today. Ok, fine. Thatís marketplace supply and demand. everyoneís pay went up. However, that still doesnít justify the fact that, with todayís leverage, we could probably be flying the 321 for $7-$10/hr more than the 319.

Put another way... had we stayed with aircraft specific pay rates, the 321 would have paid more than what group 2 is paying today.

Blended group pay is a leftover product of the BK contract. It benefits the company, definitely not us.

And you'd make less for operating a 319...

Does UPS operate under a bankruptcy contract? They have a single pay rate across the fleet...I wonder if their 74 guys ***** about flying a whale for 757 rates.

aa73
01-25-2019, 11:20 AM
And you'd make less for operating a 319...

Does UPS operate under a bankruptcy contract? They have a single pay rate across the fleet...I wonder if their 74 guys ***** about flying a whale for 757 rates.

Doubtful. 319 pay would be right where Group 2 is today.

And a single pay rate across the fleet... ummm. Yeah. Letís just say, Iím damn glad youíre not on the negotiating committee Name User. There is a reason UPS is the only airline in the entire US using that system, and no one else.

Have you always been this concessionairy? or are you management?

BoilerUP
01-25-2019, 11:30 AM
The UPS single payrate works, in part, because ďthatís the way its always beenĒ...and while a few might complain the 747-8 pays the same as a 757-200 (given flagship widebody rates at AA/UA/DL) it seems to be beneficial to the group as a whole.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/c61e3e51f37b962c0774b249283dc34d.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/bfcf7e2ec2d583cafb2d59485586c2f9.jpg

Iíll concede, however, that UPS ainít AA and vice versa.

Name User
01-25-2019, 11:31 AM
Doubtful. 319 pay would be right where Group 2 is today.

And a single pay rate across the fleet... ummm. Yeah. Letís just say, Iím damn glad youíre not on the negotiating committee Name User. There is a reason UPS is the only airline in the entire US using that system, and no one else.

Have you always been this concessionairy? or are you management?
Ok so let me get this straight. You want higher pay for the 321 but no additional for the 319 or 320. Wow that sounds awesome. Screw those guys. I guess we really are independent contractors.

UPS by far has the most unified pilot group. During their last contract they gave the lions share of the raises to the FOs because they knew the upgrade was going to be long. When management furloughed those 49 guys the union reduced line values to keep more on property so everyone would share in the pain.

There are also other benefits to a single pay rate. You can bid narrowbody as a senior guy and not take a pay hit. You can bid widebody as a junior guy and see the world while you are young instead of killing your body when you are in your 50's (with no pay hit).

It has the potential to reduce training cycles as well and we can capture that as additional pay or work rule improvements elsewhere.

However I think the biggest benefit is that it helps unify the group instead of having so many different fiefdoms.

Dobbs18
01-25-2019, 11:43 AM
Doubtful. 319 pay would be right where Group 2 is today.

And a single pay rate across the fleet... ummm. Yeah. Letís just say, Iím damn glad youíre not on the negotiating committee Name User. There is a reason UPS is the only airline in the entire US using that system, and no one else.

Have you always been this concessionairy? or are you management?

FedEx is close to having the same thing with only a designation between narrowbody and widebody...

Dobbs18
01-25-2019, 11:47 AM
Ok so let me get this straight. You want higher pay for the 321 but no additional for the 319 or 320. Wow that sounds awesome. Screw those guys. I guess we really are independent contractors.

UPS by far has the most unified pilot group. During their last contract they gave the lions share of the raises to the FOs because they knew the upgrade was going to be long. When management furloughed those 49 guys the union reduced line values to keep more on property so everyone would share in the pain.

There are also other benefits to a single pay rate. You can bid narrowbody as a senior guy and not take a pay hit. You can bid widebody as a junior guy and see the world while you are young instead of killing your body when you are in your 50's (with no pay hit).

It has the potential to reduce training cycles as well and we can capture that as additional pay or work rule improvements elsewhere.

However I think the biggest benefit is that it helps unify the group instead of having so many different fiefdoms.

Problem is that 25+ year vets will see it as flushing their seniority down the drain, in sort of the same way that some view ACD doing the same thing....plus they won't be able to say, "don't worry son, you'll be senior one day" :D

Name User
01-25-2019, 11:49 AM
Problem is that 25+ year vets will see it as flushing their seniority down the drain, in sort of the same way that some view ACD doing the same thing....plus they won't be able to say, "don't worry son, you'll be senior one day" :D

Oh yes I can hear it now. Keep in mind I hope to retire top 1%. So I'm not against slitting my own throat here.

Check out the vacation thread on CnR as an example of how f*ed up the APA has made things, and they are also negotiating our next contract.

We need to stop the insanity.

Name User
01-25-2019, 11:51 AM
FedEx is close to having the same thing with only a designation between narrowbody and widebody...

I'd prefer an intl override personally on those legs. That way it will help out guys going Deep South Mexico etc even on the NB. And they deserve it, flying intl is a PITA. I'd like to see a $15/$10 add.

AAL24
01-25-2019, 11:55 AM
Widebody flying might represent 15% of the systemwide flying at AA. If the junior pilots would get involved they could control the union and outcomes in no time. There is no vast conspiracy from the senior widebody captains. They probably just tend to vote more and send soundoffs instead of complain on social media.

Name User
01-25-2019, 12:00 PM
Widebody flying might represent 15% of the systemwide flying at AA. If the junior pilots would get involved they could control the union and outcomes in no time. There is no vast conspiracy from the senior widebody captains. They probably just tend to vote more and send soundoffs instead of complain on social media.

Well that isn't right either - it needs to be a consensus on all accords. It should not be an "us" vs "them" environment.

Dobbs18
01-25-2019, 12:19 PM
Widebody flying might represent 15% of the systemwide flying at AA. If the junior pilots would get involved they could control the union and outcomes in no time. There is no vast conspiracy from the senior widebody captains. They probably just tend to vote more and send soundoffs instead of complain on social media.

so I am just using very rough numbers but lets say in 2013 we hired 400, in 2014 500, 2015 500, 2016 600, 2017 800, 2018 950...that equals 3,750 "junior pilots", even if I am off by 1,000 that is still less than 5,000 which is less than a 1/3 of the pilot group...not really enough to "control" the outcome....yet...but I agree, junior guys need to get more involved, and I do send soundoffs, probably not enough though

aa73
01-25-2019, 12:26 PM
Ok so let me get this straight. You want higher pay for the 321 but no additional for the 319 or 320. Wow that sounds awesome. Screw those guys. I guess we really are independent contractors.

No. I didn’t say that at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I want higher pay for all aircraft. With aircraft specific pay we would have a similar pay rate to Group 2 today on the 319, slightly higher on the 320, and even higher on the 321.

With pay banding, we have one blended rate for all aircraft. Pilot concession, and management’s dream come true. And, if Fedex is intent on copying UPS, then all I can I say, it’s a slippery slope.. we the pax carriers do NOT want to go there. Management will exploit it until you are sore in the knees.

Name User
01-25-2019, 12:41 PM
No. I didnít say that at all. You are putting words in my mouth. I want higher pay for all aircraft. With aircraft specific pay we would have a similar pay rate to Group 2 today on the 319, slightly higher on the 320, and even higher on the 321.

With pay banding, we have one blended rate for all aircraft. Pilot concession, and managementís dream come true. And, if Fedex is intent on copying UPS, then all I can I say, itís a slippery slope.. we the pax carriers do NOT want to go there. Management will exploit it until you are sore in the knees.

# of pilots / $ payroll

If things are similar (or better), there is no concession, and allows for all the benefits I mentioned. You act like one rate would end up paying less, no where did I mention that. It should be an increase overall due to capturing the win-win benefits.

If not, then don't go down that path. Seems simple enough. But decreeing "NOPE!" without even considering it is how the APA got us in our current situation (lack of work rules, lack of profit sharing, etc) that now have to be clawed back.

FL370esq
01-25-2019, 01:03 PM
I'm guessing they'd use a blended rate like United and (gasp) Delta has.

Delta pays any reserve guarantee at the rate of the highest paying aircraft in the category (i.e., A321/B737-900).

PRS Guitars
01-25-2019, 03:32 PM
Your understanding of the tax code and what was deducted is lacking.

.

Not a dig on the guy youíre referencing, but yeah, this is pretty common. A lot of people vastly overestimate what that deduction gets them. I think some people think itís a tax credit instead of deduction.

An FA on crew news a few weeks ago, was mad at a Trump and said this would cost him $4k. I think heíd have to be deducting about $18k in per firm to get the $4k amount.

viper548
01-25-2019, 05:13 PM
Not a dig on the guy youíre referencing, but yeah, this is pretty common. A lot of people vastly overestimate what that deduction gets them. I think some people think itís a tax credit instead of deduction.

An FA on crew news a few weeks ago, was mad at a Trump and said this would cost him $4k. I think heíd have to be deducting about $18k in per firm to get the $4k amount.

I'm still working on my return but I think I'm pretty close to what the numbers will look like. Our AGI was about $10k higher than last year. We lost A LOT of deductions- I'm talking $40k+ in deductions. I thought we were f'ed this year. It's looking like we will pay around $1000 LESS federal tax this year than we did last year. I had about $5500 in AMT last year, this year 0.

deus ex machina
01-26-2019, 09:58 AM
wow... more negotiating in public... another reason the APA is so ... awesuuuum...

Cheddar
01-26-2019, 06:20 PM
wow... more negotiating in public... another reason the APA is so ... awesuuuum...



Iím sure Todd Jewitt is anxiously reading and forming strategies with Per and the gang based on what I and 20 some-odd people who may or may not be AA pilots are saying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

swaayze
01-27-2019, 08:53 AM
Your understanding of the tax code and what was deducted is lacking.

The only per diem that is taxed is when you do day trips. This has not changed.

What was deducted was the difference between what the company underpaid us based on federal M&IE rates. Example, we get $50/day but overnight in a city that the feds say should cost $75, we could take that $25 difference, multiply by 80%, and deduct that as a business expense.

Lemme guess, you also did your own taxes and ended up with tens of thousands in per diem deductions lol.



OK, sorry. Poor semantics on my part I guess, my bad.

I *think* we're ultimately saying the same thing, but you didnít mention the 75% first and last day issue, or was I screwing that up (too)?

Snark wasn't necessary - Iím not an internet tough guy, not an accountant, and have not stayed in a HIExpress in ages. Always willing to admit if Iím wrong.

Regardless that argument is moot now. But to make gains in Per Diem left in our pockets after April 15th we need rate gains AND compensation for lost tax implications, no?

FWIW, the new code prevents/frees me from itemizing anyway and should result in lower taxes for my family. So far Iím a fan.

Name User
01-27-2019, 05:23 PM
OK, sorry. Poor semantics on my part I guess, my bad.

I *think* we're ultimately saying the same thing, but you didn’t mention the 75% first and last day issue, or was I screwing that up (too)?

Snark wasn't necessary - I’m not an internet tough guy, not an accountant, and have not stayed in a HIExpress in ages. Always willing to admit if I’m wrong.

Regardless that argument is moot now. But to make gains in Per Diem left in our pockets after April 15th we need rate gains AND compensation for lost tax implications, no?

FWIW, the new code prevents/frees me from itemizing anyway and should result in lower taxes for my family. So far I’m a fan.

No we aren't saying the same thing. Taxes in general for some reason confuse many, you are not alone.

I didn't mention the first/last day thing because when someone's knowledge is not there it's really not important to share the finer details. Building blocks like when learning to fly :).

The fact that the new code results in lower taxes for you is a good thing. It simplifies things. But your argument for compensation gains due to loss of deductions contradicts the statement that you are better off under the new, lower rates. I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking for gains, just that the reason you gave was not a good argument.

I'm not sure I understand your April 15th comment. The simple fact of the matter is per diem is hands down the best way for us to get paid due to no taxes on our part or the company having to match them (the company also pays taxes on our behalf). But there are maximum limits to it and it only applies to TAFB time.

Thedude
01-27-2019, 09:10 PM
Problem is that 25+ year vets will see it as flushing their seniority down the drain, in sort of the same way that some view ACD doing the same thing....plus they won't be able to say, "don't worry son, you'll be senior one day" :D

Biggest problem with those 25+ yr vets is, they have never worked anywhere else of significance or are ex-.mil and don't have a clue on how things can and should be. They are willing to tell you that you are f'ed up when you don't agree with them but they don't have the experience to back it up.


Former freight dog.
Almost wishing I had staid freight because of APA.

AAL24
01-27-2019, 10:09 PM
Arrogance and ignorance are a dangerous combo.

Route66
01-28-2019, 03:56 AM
Biggest problem with those 25+ yr vets is, they have never worked anywhere else of significance or are ex-.mil and don't have a clue on how things can and should be. They are willing to tell you that you are f'ed up when you don't agree with them but they don't have the experience to back it up.


Former freight dog.
Almost wishing I had staid freight because of APA.

You can always go back if you donít like it here....I thought not.

R57 relay
01-28-2019, 06:00 AM
Biggest problem with those 25+ yr vets is, they have never worked anywhere else of significance or are ex-.mil and don't have a clue on how things can and should be. They are willing to tell you that you are f'ed up when you don't agree with them but they don't have the experience to back it up.


Former freight dog.
Almost wishing I had staid freight because of APA.

Really? Many of us with 25+ years worked at legacy companies that had vastly superior contracts to what we have now. Many things conspired to change that. Too many that have been here less time don't have a clue of what we had and why we lost it.

Posts and comments like yours smack of know-it-all.

swaayze
01-28-2019, 08:14 AM
The fact that the new code results in lower taxes for you is a good thing. It simplifies things. But your argument for compensation gains due to loss of deductions contradicts the statement that you are better off under the new, lower rates. I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking for gains, just that the reason you gave was not a good argument.

I'm not sure I understand your April 15th comment. The simple fact of the matter is per diem is hands down the best way for us to get paid due to no taxes on our part or the company having to match them (the company also pays taxes on our behalf). But there are maximum limits to it and it only applies to TAFB time.

The April 15 comment was referring to lost deductions for those who (still) itemize and could previously take the partial work expense deduction for MI&E. Thatís why I said ďourĒ pockets and not ďmyĒ pockets. Just because I wonít necessarily be directly tax-affected by these specific changes now doesnít mean that we shouldnít want to recapture those for our group, many of whom I would suspect are somewhat affected.

When we can show an impact to our bottom line we should seek to capitalize on it; we need x to remain level versus we want y as an increase. Yes, the numbers are relatively small, and limited as you point out, but we need all the legitimate points we can get. And I agree, as you say, the PD is not taxable income for most trips and therefore a better way to be compensated.

450knotOffice
01-28-2019, 10:43 AM
Really? Many of us with 25+ years worked at legacy companies that had vastly superior contracts to what we have now. Many things conspired to change that. Too many that have been here less time don't have a clue of what we had and why we lost it.

Posts and comments like yours smack of know-it-all.

Which is all too common here at APC.

Name User
01-28-2019, 06:42 PM
The April 15 comment was referring to lost deductions for those who (still) itemize and could previously take the partial work expense deduction for MI&E. That’s why I said “our” pockets and not “my” pockets. Just because I won’t necessarily be directly tax-affected by these specific changes now doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t want to recapture those for our group, many of whom I would suspect are somewhat affected.

When we can show an impact to our bottom line we should seek to capitalize on it; we need x to remain level versus we want y as an increase. Yes, the numbers are relatively small, and limited as you point out, but we need all the legitimate points we can get. And I agree, as you say, the PD is not taxable income for most trips and therefore a better way to be compensated.

The reason we could deduct the per diem difference off our taxes is because we weren't paid enough per diem to cover meals and incidents in those cities. The standard across the US is $64/night IIRC and a lot of the cities we go are more than that (ie NYC is $74).

So, why not just get the federal m&ie rate or a per diem rate that approaches it ($2.65 or so)? Seems reasonable and "wins back" the deduction.

On a side note many pilots deducted van tips and dry cleaning however technically that wasn't allowed as it was included under m&ie. But, splitting hairs now.

Thedude
01-29-2019, 09:07 AM
I see the usuAAls have come and proved my point for me.



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