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View Full Version : ENY vs PSA vs PDT


fenix1
10-30-2018, 12:14 AM
I’m trying to evaluate which WO is my best bet, all things considered and given my goals/situation, and I’d appreciate your objective thoughts toward that.

It’s important to me to live in base & at a base that’s as junior as possible for both FO’s & CA’s, but I have some flexibility on where we’ll live (biggest consideration is someplace where the cost of living is sane in a neighborhood that doesn’t require donning Kevlar to get mail); I currently live in the DFW area, but we have no ties here (other than my wife holding a decent - but not great - job) and we may well choose to move to ORD if we get on with ENY to live in a more junior base. I’ll be starting indoc at age 42. My goal is to fly as much as possible (while living in base) to get 1000 hours 121 ASAP to upgrade as soon as possible & build TPIC - I see the regionals as a means to an end. In a perfect world, I’d like to avoid 50-seat equipment (although don’t care whether I end up in CRJ-7/900 or E-175), but - if there’s enough overall & more important positives - then E-145 or CRJ-200 would be great (ie, no SJS here, but I know QoL is better in larger equipment, all other things being equal). Ultimate goal may or may not end up being AA (another legacy or an LCC/ULCC or even an ACMI could well end up being the primary objective), but I believe it’s wise to have the flow as insurance/backup (I’ve done the work to understand other regional options & what I’m giving up for the flow and WO’s are what make sense to us, all things considered).

Thanks in advance for any objective input you’re good enough to share.


dera
10-30-2018, 12:20 AM
At 42 years, how impressive is your previous resume?

NoValueAviator
10-30-2018, 06:25 AM
At that age you have a decent shot of getting the 175 and you'll get through training fast, fly a lot, get off reserve fast, and have great QOL/schedule if you want to be in ORD. To me, in your shoes, Envoy would be an easy choice. Especially with DFW available in class to many 175 hires, saving you a move if you decide that it would be better to stay and bid in a slightly more senior base.

While the 145 is a terrible aircraft and I can actually understand feeling like you are too good to fly it, I would probably pick that over the CRJ here if you want to fly. And this is a choice you may be faced with -- Envoy has done classes of all 145/CRJ. The CRJ is a dying fleet and new FOs on it seem to fly very little and spend a very long time on reserve, whereas you will probably be able to cobble together 15-40 hours on reserve on the 145 if you hustle.

From what I understand, PSA guys fly plenty on really cool airplanes (still no A/T though) and you can get CLT which is a super nice place to live as long as you are careful about which neighborhood you set up in. You'll end up working somewhere else on upgrade, who knows for how long. I will also say that they seem to attract a much higher proportion of total jerks, which is not to say that we don't have plenty of our own, especially in ORD for some reason. Regardless, if I had a do-over I'd have gone to PSA probably.

Piedmont only has 145s and only had a Philly base, but I guess they're moving into CLT too. They're known to have major backlogs in their training pipeline, but beyond that I don't know much.


QuagmireGiggity
10-30-2018, 07:16 AM
Tough question to answer. Mostly depends on where ya want to live.
9000 hours in the EMB 145 and it's still my favorite airplane but I never flew the others. I wouldn't say it's a "terrible airplane". I miss the simplicity. I left Envoy years ago and it was good to me. I would stay away from small fleets. When I was there the CRJ was a small fleet(but senior) so schedules were limited. Trading and available open time is smaller in small fleet aircraft. Sometimes small fleets can be good if it's junior because you can get Christmas and the vacations /weekends off if that's your thing. It's too complex to explain it all. I think going with a flow regional is a smart move. You can always apply off the street at other airlines.

E175 Driver
10-30-2018, 02:55 PM
At that age, I consider another career.

Varsity
10-30-2018, 03:00 PM
At that age, I consider another career.


23 years left.. :rolleyes:

He could be in traning 4mo, fly a year, get hired by atlas and be a 747-800 CA by 46.

CrowneVic
10-30-2018, 03:19 PM
At 42 years, how impressive is your previous resume?

I would like to know some of the things you think would make a previous resume “impressive” for an older entrant to the industry that comes from a “non-standard” background?

dera
10-30-2018, 03:34 PM
I would like to know some of the things you think would make a previous resume “impressive” for an older entrant to the industry that comes from a “non-standard” background?

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask.

Nothing wrong with older guys. But if legacy airline is your goal, you need a pretty solid career before aviation to be competitive. If you've been a Starbucks barista for 20 years, you'll never get that call, because your experience level is lower than your peers, with nothing to back it up. And that's when flow would be nr.1 priority.

But if you've been an Astronaut, then flow wouldn't matter that much.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 04:56 PM
Thanks a lot for all your thoughts. Can you please help me put with what you’re referring to in your PSA comments in saying “still no A/T though”?

I definitely don’t see myself as “too good” to fly the 145 (or 200) and I’ll dive-in hard on the 50-seaters if that ends up being my best option, all things considered. I’m simply saying I’d rather fly higher credit/block trips more often (instead of 20 minute turns), all other things being equal, as I know many of you understand better than me at this point.

At that age you have a decent shot of getting the 175 and you'll get through training fast, fly a lot, get off reserve fast, and have great QOL/schedule if you want to be in ORD. To me, in your shoes, Envoy would be an easy choice. Especially with DFW available in class to many 175 hires, saving you a move if you decide that it would be better to stay and bid in a slightly more senior base.

While the 145 is a terrible aircraft and I can actually understand feeling like you are too good to fly it, I would probably pick that over the CRJ here if you want to fly. And this is a choice you may be faced with -- Envoy has done classes of all 145/CRJ. The CRJ is a dying fleet and new FOs on it seem to fly very little and spend a very long time on reserve, whereas you will probably be able to cobble together 15-40 hours on reserve on the 145 if you hustle.

From what I understand, PSA guys fly plenty on really cool airplanes (still no A/T though) and you can get CLT which is a super nice place to live as long as you are careful about which neighborhood you set up in. You'll end up working somewhere else on upgrade, who knows for how long. I will also say that they seem to attract a much higher proportion of total jerks, which is not to say that we don't have plenty of our own, especially in ORD for some reason. Regardless, if I had a do-over I'd have gone to PSA probably.

Piedmont only has 145s and only had a Philly base, but I guess they're moving into CLT too. They're known to have major backlogs in their training pipeline, but beyond that I don't know much.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 04:59 PM
Many thanks and great insight regarding small fleets!

Tough question to answer. Mostly depends on where ya want to live.
9000 hours in the EMB 145 and it's still my favorite airplane but I never flew the others. I wouldn't say it's a "terrible airplane". I miss the simplicity. I left Envoy years ago and it was good to me. I would stay away from small fleets. When I was there the CRJ was a small fleet(but senior) so schedules were limited. Trading and available open time is smaller in small fleet aircraft. Sometimes small fleets can be good if it's junior because you can get Christmas and the vacations /weekends off if that's your thing. It's too complex to explain it all. I think going with a flow regional is a smart move. You can always apply off the street at other airlines.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 05:00 PM
This (or many other possibilities if movement is half as strong as projected over the next couple decades).

23 years left.. :rolleyes:

He could be in traning 4mo, fly a year, get hired by atlas and be a 747-800 CA by 46.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 05:02 PM
What relevance does my background have regarding the relative merits of ENY vs PSA vs PDT?

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask.

Nothing wrong with older guys. But if legacy airline is your goal, you need a pretty solid career before aviation to be competitive. If you've been a Starbucks barista for 20 years, you'll never get that call, because your experience level is lower than your peers, with nothing to back it up. And that's when flow would be nr.1 priority.

But if you've been an Astronaut, then flow wouldn't matter that much.

Otterbox
10-30-2018, 05:04 PM
Thanks a lot for all your thoughts. Can you please help me put with what you’re referring to in your PSA comments in saying “still no A/T though”?

I definitely don’t see myself as “too good” to fly the 145 (or 200) and I’ll dive-in hard on the 50-seaters if that ends up being my best option, all things considered. I’m simply saying I’d rather fly higher credit/block trips more often (instead of 20 minute turns), all other things being equal, as I know many of you understand better than me at this point.

No auto throttles in the 145... you have to do some pilot stuff to get on the ground.

What’s the status of Envoys fleet replacement plan shifting all of 145s to Piedmont/CPA carriers and and all CRJs to PSA and replacing them with new order 175s?

If you already live in Dallas, it may just be worth it to stay, go to Envoy and shoot for Spirit or SWA while you wait to flow. You may have to suck up some CRJ flying or a stint on the 145 to stay in DFW but it would probably be worth it since you already live there and could stay long term.

dera
10-30-2018, 05:04 PM
What relevance does my background have regarding the relative merits of ENY vs PSA vs PDT?

It was more about WO vs. non-WO, and possible career paths between a legacy airline and regionals.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 06:33 PM
You’ve made it clear that you came to ENY largely due to the flow (and have staunchly defended your decision to do so...), which makes it an ‘interesting’ phenomenon when you steer someone away for the exact reasons that you chose your current employer!

It was more about WO vs. non-WO, and possible career paths between a legacy airline and regionals.

fenix1
10-30-2018, 06:44 PM
Thanks a lot for the help regarding A/T.

My understanding is that plan is moving along, albeit in fits & starts. Didn’t ENY just announce more 175 deliveries for 2019?

You may well be spot-on that doing what it takes with ENY to make living in DFW work ends up being the best bet, but we’ll load up the U-Haul if that makes sense, too - will keep learning & evaluating. We may not be in the DFW area for the long haul either way, but I’d love to go to work for WN (and could do a lot worse than NK) if flowing doesn’t end up being the right answer.

Thanks again for your help!

No auto throttles in the 145... you have to do some pilot stuff to get on the ground.

What’s the status of Envoys fleet replacement plan shifting all of 145s to Piedmont/CPA carriers and and all CRJs to PSA and replacing them with new order 175s?

If you already live in Dallas, it may just be worth it to stay, go to Envoy and shoot for Spirit or SWA while you wait to flow. You may have to suck up some CRJ flying or a stint on the 145 to stay in DFW but it would probably be worth it since you already live there and could stay long term.

CrowneVic
10-30-2018, 07:12 PM
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask.

Nothing wrong with older guys. But if legacy airline is your goal, you need a pretty solid career before aviation to be competitive. If you've been a Starbucks barista for 20 years, you'll never get that call, because your experience level is lower than your peers, with nothing to back it up. And that's when flow would be nr.1 priority.

But if you've been an Astronaut, then flow wouldn't matter that much.

I understood what you were saying quite clearly. So, what would make it “impressive”?

dera
10-30-2018, 07:16 PM
You’ve made it clear that you came to ENY largely due to the flow (and have staunchly defended your decision to do so...), which makes it an ‘interesting’ phenomenon when you steer someone away for the exact reasons that you chose your current employer!

Where did I steer anyone away from anything?

dera
10-30-2018, 07:36 PM
I understood what you were saying quite clearly. So, what would make it “impressive”?

Well, I would say working for NASA with a few trips to the ISS would be impressive. My opinion obviously doesn't matter.

The relevant level of impressiveness depends on the scoring grades your major of choice has set for their ATS. Career changers by definition have lower-than-average experience level compared to their demographic group, and thus will need a boost from their past.
I don't understand why you keep asking me about what I think is impressive because it's pretty darn obvious it doesn't matter. But just to entertain your interest, I'd say a good single field career with natural career progression would work, avoiding sideways moves unless they are required for relocation. Those are things that an HR person would look at.

You're getting stuck with one word here. Perhaps I should've reworded that post. "As a career changer, to be considered by a major, you will need a solid employment history in a field that gives you points on your resume review. You will always be graded against your peers, and being mid-40's with 3000 hours and 2-3 years in aviation will put you way below most other mid-40's applicants. Joining a WO regional with a flow is a great backup plan in that case. But if you have a solid career history and a good story on the career change, then you have many possible paths to take and still end up at a legacy airline."

fenix1
10-31-2018, 10:33 AM
Good grief...

If you have any relevant input regarding the relative merits of ENY/PSA/PDT, then I’m all ears and grateful.

Where did I steer anyone away from anything?

NoValueAviator
10-31-2018, 10:44 AM
Because QOL is so night and day here depending on fleet, you have a lot of really unhappy people and a lot of people who really can't understand why, unfortunately.

dera
10-31-2018, 10:58 AM
Good grief...

If you have any relevant input regarding the relative merits of ENY/PSA/PDT, then I’m all ears and grateful.

Wow.

Anyway.

If you are employable outside the flow, then going to a WO that gets you on the line fastest is the best option. But if you aren't, then going to a WO with the fastest flow might be the way to go.

For bases, Envoy is DFW/ORD/NYC/MIA, if you already are in DFW, that's obviously a huge plus. You might not get DFW immediately out of training, but you should get it within a few months - assuming you don't get the CRJ which is ORD only. PDT has CLT which is a nice place to live, and PSA has a few good ones, DAY and ORF come to mind.
PDT takes forever to get through training currently, but is probably the fastest way to flow. The flow clock starts day 1 of indoc, and you'll run 6-8 months between indoc and IOE. PSA and Envoy don't have reported training delays, but Envoy has a risk of getting the CRJ which means you'll pretty much never fly, and the 145 reserve is long. PSA will get you a line the fastest, but as of now is the slowest flow.

So, it comes down to the first question I asked - how likely are you to get hired outside the flow. If not very, then PDT is not a bad choice because you'd likely flow a year or two ahead of PSA. But if you are a strong candidate outside the flow, then PSA or Envoy with reservations could be the best choice.

And the usual caveat, we are talking about the regional industry with a 6-10 year timespan, so all of these are moving targets.

fenix1
10-31-2018, 02:50 PM
Thanks (filler)

Wow.

Anyway.

If you are employable outside the flow, then going to a WO that gets you on the line fastest is the best option. But if you aren't, then going to a WO with the fastest flow might be the way to go.

For bases, Envoy is DFW/ORD/NYC/MIA, if you already are in DFW, that's obviously a huge plus. You might not get DFW immediately out of training, but you should get it within a few months - assuming you don't get the CRJ which is ORD only. PDT has CLT which is a nice place to live, and PSA has a few good ones, DAY and ORF come to mind.
PDT takes forever to get through training currently, but is probably the fastest way to flow. The flow clock starts day 1 of indoc, and you'll run 6-8 months between indoc and IOE. PSA and Envoy don't have reported training delays, but Envoy has a risk of getting the CRJ which means you'll pretty much never fly, and the 145 reserve is long. PSA will get you a line the fastest, but as of now is the slowest flow.

So, it comes down to the first question I asked - how likely are you to get hired outside the flow. If not very, then PDT is not a bad choice because you'd likely flow a year or two ahead of PSA. But if you are a strong candidate outside the flow, then PSA or Envoy with reservations could be the best choice.

And the usual caveat, we are talking about the regional industry with a 6-10 year timespan, so all of these are moving targets.

fenix1
10-31-2018, 02:54 PM
Thanks - I’m getting a strong sense of that fact that ENY is almost 3 airlines in 1 and it’s the proverbial box of chocolates to sign the dotted line for most folks

Because QOL is so night and day here depending on fleet, you have a lot of really unhappy people and a lot of people who really can't understand why, unfortunately.

havick206
10-31-2018, 02:57 PM
Thanks - I’m getting a strong sense of that fact that ENY is almost 3 airlines in 1 and it’s the proverbial box of chocolates to sign the dotted line for most folks

You can always resign as soon as you find out what equipment is up for grabs on Indoc day and go with another CJO

Just have a backup offer you would be ok with

dera
10-31-2018, 03:06 PM
You can always resign as soon as you find out what equipment is up for grabs on Indoc day and go with another CJO

Just have a backup offer you would be ok with

Remember to give 2 weeks notice though. Otherwise you'll blacklist yourself from all WOs and AA.

You'll also owe 5000 for the ATP CTP.

havick206
10-31-2018, 04:21 PM
Remember to give 2 weeks notice though. Otherwise you'll blacklist yourself from all WOs and AA.

You'll also owe 5000 for the ATP CTP.

Good point

fenix1
10-31-2018, 05:46 PM
I wouldn’t necessarily feel right about doing this, but it may well be the right answer, all things considered

Remember to give 2 weeks notice though. Otherwise you'll blacklist yourself from all WOs and AA.

You'll also owe 5000 for the ATP CTP.

Houpilot2001
10-31-2018, 06:45 PM
I wouldn’t necessarily feel right about doing this, but it may well be the right answer, all things considered

So, because you were raised "right", you would feel bad about treating the company that way; but, it's ok for them to do it to you?

havick206
10-31-2018, 07:20 PM
I wouldn’t necessarily feel right about doing this, but it may well be the right answer, all things considered

Better off leaving early on in the piece if it’s not going to work for you rather than both you and the company spending time/effort to get trained up and leave 3-6 months later anyway.

fenix1
10-31-2018, 11:52 PM
Very true & the approach I’ve taken in past professional life several times!

Better off leaving early on in the piece if it’s not going to work for you rather than both you and the company spending time/effort to get trained up and leave 3-6 months later anyway.

fenix1
10-31-2018, 11:59 PM
Don’t get me wrong - mama didn’t raise no dummy neither!

Ideally, for everyone’s benefit, I figure out what’s likely and don’t take the job if what’s likely is a bad fit. But, because ENY is 3 airlines in one essentially and any given Indoc classes’ slots aren’t known until they’re known, I absolutely see how it could be the right answer to bug out at that point (or fill the moving van for ORD).

So, because you were raised "right", you would feel bad about treating the company that way; but, it's ok for them to do it to you?

Otterbox
11-01-2018, 04:44 AM
Very true & the approach I’ve taken in past professional life several times!

Leaving in training regardless of circumstances is a potential black mark on your record that you’ll have to answer for the rest of your career. Other airlines may be hesitant to touch you unless you hit certain wickets after you start training.

One of the WO views leaving between indoc and OE as a potential training failure and won’t pick up a person without the completion of a subsequent training program in between. Another has a six month cooling off period between training withdrawal/failures before they’ll consider hiring an applicant. Recently a buddy at one of the WO found that RAH wouldn’t hire him directly from WO training prior to receiving his ATP/Type rating...

I would not recommend leaving your first airline within your probation period. Highly recommend against leaving during 121 training, even if that means sucking it up and flying a jet you don’t want for 6-9 months... unless of course you get a call from a major.

NoValueAviator
11-01-2018, 07:51 AM
It does happen but more rarely than you might think. One 145/LGA guy did not come back for day 2 of indoc in my class. The advice I've gotten is that AAG and any other major that happens to find out about your choice to bail because of base/fleet will not be impressed.

What if they want to give you a bum plane/base at their operation?

The solution I think is just to go somewhere else on the front end where you aren't gambling with the first 1.5-5 years of your airline career depending on the bad judgment of Envoy's fleet planners.

Pedro4President
11-01-2018, 09:25 AM
It does happen but more rarely than you might think. One 145/LGA guy did not come back for day 2 of indoc in my class. The advice I've gotten is that AAG and any other major that happens to find out about your choice to bail because of base/fleet will not be impressed.

What if they want to give you a bum plane/base at their operation?

The solution I think is just to go somewhere else on the front end where you aren't gambling with the first 1.5-5 years of your airline career depending on the bad judgment of Envoy's fleet planners.

Coming to Envoy is a gamble for 5 years??? I'd like to hear a scenario that goes beyond three.

Fleet choice now isn't likely to be as bad as you are making it out to be. Yes I agree people on the CRJ have it bad right now but I don't see the same peril for current new hires. Now other scenarios of getting stuck on the 175 when you live in Miami is possible if classes have only 175 slots. But that torture will only last a 12-18 months.

NoValueAviator
11-01-2018, 10:17 AM
5 years would depend on more extensions of the CRJ operation, but how is even 3 wasted years acceptable in this environment?

The next generation of mainline airline pilots is going to be hired between now and 2026. You may still get hired after that, but it's going to be a lot harder, and you're going to spend your entire career a lot less senior.

chrisreedrules
11-01-2018, 10:26 AM
5 years would depend on more extensions of the CRJ operation, but how is even 3 wasted years acceptable in this environment?

The next generation of mainline airline pilots is going to be hired between now and 2026. You may still get hired after that, but it's going to be a lot harder, and you're going to spend your entire career a lot less senior.

The numbers I’ve seen state that if you get hired on at AA by about 2021-2022 you can hold domestic narrow-body CA or wide body FO in about 5 years. Widebody CA would still be about 20 years out from that hire date. Hired beyond 2023-2024 and I think you’ll “miss the boat” to some extent. You’ll still enjoy a great career compared to what many have experienced in this crazy industry, but not the same meteoric rise in seniority as those hired just a year or two ahead of you.

BigZ
11-01-2018, 06:12 PM
Coming to Envoy is a gamble for 5 years??? I'd like to hear a scenario that goes beyond three.

Fleet choice now isn't likely to be as bad as you are making it out to be. Yes I agree people on the CRJ have it bad right now but I don't see the same peril for current new hires. Now other scenarios of getting stuck on the 175 when you live in Miami is possible if classes have only 175 slots. But that torture will only last a 12-18 months.

Never know - 4 poor souls were hired into the CRJ last month. Probably just for the giggles.

dera
11-01-2018, 06:32 PM
Never know - 4 poor souls were hired into the CRJ last month. Probably just for the giggles.

Hope those 4 OFC's were an exception.
The other 4 were OCC.

BigZ
11-01-2018, 08:05 PM
Hope those 4 OFC's were an exception.
The other 4 were OCC.

I count around 20-25 OCC hired since August.
And 4 OFC since March. All in one class last month

dera
11-01-2018, 08:12 PM
I count around 20-25 OCC hired since August.
And 4 OFC since March. All in one class last month

Yeah thankfully it seems like the 4 OFC in the October class were an exception.
DECs seem to get shafted pretty badly, unless they live in ORD.

BigZ
11-01-2018, 08:59 PM
Yeah thankfully it seems like the 4 OFC in the October class were an exception.
DECs seem to get shafted pretty badly, unless they live in ORD.

Nah. Next class might also have them. Or not. Or the class month and a half from now. Next class might be all 175. Or 145 LGA. Or 145, but no LGA. Making bold statements is rather pointless.

dera
11-01-2018, 09:06 PM
Nah. Next class might also have them. Or not. Or the class month and a half from now. Next class might be all 175. Or 145 LGA. Or 145, but no LGA. Making bold statements is rather pointless.

"it seems" is not a bold statement.
But 4 out of what, 200-ish, is not a large number.
I think we can agree there's no logic visible to outsiders on what's offered. So who knows, next 4 classes could be 20 OFC.

BigZ
11-01-2018, 09:24 PM
"it seems" is not a bold statement.
But 4 out of what, 200-ish, is not a large number.
I think we can agree there's no logic visible to outsiders on what's offered. So who knows, next 4 classes could be 20 OFC.
My point exactly. I like crunching numbers too, and while you can always take the assumed strategic staffing goals based on the fleet plan and try to determine the class composition from that, I found it to be utterly pointless.
OCC of the recent past is a great example. Standing bid is supposed to be comprised of the unfilled vacancies from the last bid. There were no OCCs in the latest bid - but, supposedly, recent hires get OCC as a backfill for the OCC that bid and were awarded other equipment. Numbers might or might not support that theory.

fenix1
11-01-2018, 09:54 PM
Thank you - that makes a lot of sense and, frankly, I don’t blame company’s one bit for taking that approach. Sounds like rolling with it may well be the right play, rather than activating the slide, if the equipment/combo doesn’t come up roses at Indoc.

Leaving in training regardless of circumstances is a potential black mark on your record that you’ll have to answer for the rest of your career. Other airlines may be hesitant to touch you unless you hit certain wickets after you start training.

One of the WO views leaving between indoc and OE as a potential training failure and won’t pick up a person without the completion of a subsequent training program in between. Another has a six month cooling off period between training withdrawal/failures before they’ll consider hiring an applicant. Recently a buddy at one of the WO found that RAH wouldn’t hire him directly from WO training prior to receiving his ATP/Type rating...

I would not recommend leaving your first airline within your probation period. Highly recommend against leaving during 121 training, even if that means sucking it up and flying a jet you don’t want for 6-9 months... unless of course you get a call from a major.

SilentLurker
11-02-2018, 11:44 AM
Thank you - that makes a lot of sense and, frankly, I don’t blame company’s one bit for taking that approach. Sounds like rolling with it may well be the right play, rather than activating the slide, if the equipment/combo doesn’t come up roses at Indoc.


Will another AA WO even call you into interview just after completing training or IOE.

I say do not waste your time and your seniority, do not waste company time either.

Give a 2 weeks notification anyways., but chances are extremely high they will ask you to leave within a few days 3-4 days if your lucky! So it’s a win win.

fenix1
11-02-2018, 10:04 PM
I’d really rather not deal with that situation at all - easier said than done sometimes & major changes can happen that fundamentally alter a given situation, but I’d rather learn all I can, not get pulled into shiny things like bonuses/etc & get it right the first time around. The perspective & info I get from all of you is huge toward that, so thanks to everyone.

Will another AA WO even call you into interview just after completing training or IOE.

I say do not waste your time and your seniority, do not waste company time either.

Give a 2 weeks notification anyways., but chances are extremely high they will ask you to leave within a few days 3-4 days if your lucky! So it’s a win win.

BobSacamano
11-03-2018, 04:52 PM
Well, I would say working for NASA with a few trips to the ISS would be impressive. My opinion obviously doesn't matter.

The relevant level of impressiveness depends on the scoring grades your major of choice has set for their ATS. Career changers by definition have lower-than-average experience level compared to their demographic group, and thus will need a boost from their past.
I don't understand why you keep asking me about what I think is impressive because it's pretty darn obvious it doesn't matter. But just to entertain your interest, I'd say a good single field career with natural career progression would work, avoiding sideways moves unless they are required for relocation. Those are things that an HR person would look at.

You're getting stuck with one word here. Perhaps I should've reworded that post. "As a career changer, to be considered by a major, you will need a solid employment history in a field that gives you points on your resume review. You will always be graded against your peers, and being mid-40's with 3000 hours and 2-3 years in aviation will put you way below most other mid-40's applicants. Joining a WO regional with a flow is a great backup plan in that case. But if you have a solid career history and a good story on the career change, then you have many possible paths to take and still end up at a legacy airline."

How come you define “peers” as those people in the same age group? Your reasoning would seem to imply that, say, a 24 year old with 3 years of 121 flying would somehow be more attractive to a major than a 40 year old with 3 years of identical 121 experience. Is that actually how it works?

I guess I just don’t understand why an airline would penalize someone just for their age. If that’s actually how it works then it looks like a bunch of career changers are essentially going to get screwed.

dera
11-03-2018, 05:00 PM
How come you define “peers” as those people in the same age group? Your reasoning would seem to imply that, say, a 24 year old with 3 years of 121 flying would somehow be more attractive to a major than a 40 year old with 3 years of identical 121 experience. Is that actually how it works?

I guess I just don’t understand why an airline would penalize someone just for their age. If that’s actually how it works then it looks like a bunch of career changers are essentially going to get screwed.

That's how HR works. Some tracking systems actually compare your resume to others in your age group and then you just pick top 10% or whatever.
And no, it isn't ageism, they will happily hire someone who's older, as long as they have enough of relevant experience. And they have plenty of 40-50 somethings with tens of thousands of hours applying so that the 40-year old with 2500 hours will be at a disadvantage.

But again - if you have a good _CAREER_, you should be just fine. But if you're a career McDonalds cashier, then that's a different issue.

SilentLurker
11-03-2018, 05:05 PM
How come you define “peers” as those people in the same age group? Your reasoning would seem to imply that, say, a 24 year old with 3 years of 121 flying would somehow be more attractive to a major than a 40 year old with 3 years of identical 121 experience. Is that actually how it works?



I guess I just don’t understand why an airline would penalize someone just for their age. If that’s actually how it works then it looks like a bunch of career changers are essentially going to get screwed.


Great question to ask Delta....

Also why it matters that you took 4 years to graduate college vs someone who took 5-6years going btw full-time & part-time while earning a living or providing for his/her family.

Each mainline carrier hiring is very different, these days you have to target your choice except military fixed wing pilots who get their choice.

Delta has been hiring a lot of young people, 27 and under, as well as a lot of females, and minority groups. Delta is leading the pack in hiring young people overall and diversifying their new hire applicants and the workforce amongst the majors.

Next is most likely United Airlines and the 2 major cargo, and then American (due to mostly military and flow thru). So take your pick for your best opportunity at mainline and preferences to get there.

EDIT to add::::

Young Cadets, & RTP guys will continue to come to Envoy/WO’s and will fill classes for these very reasons. So our pay will be suppressed by AAG for some time., These young folks see what is happening and the competition to get to mainline. They want a back pocket ticket to the highly competitive big show. They have choices but they’ll flood Envoy/WO’s for security.



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