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Excargodog
11-02-2018, 09:14 PM
From the Seattle Times:

November 2, 2018 at 9:26 pm
Former Alaska Airlines pilot sues airline, contending he was wrongly fired amid false rape claims
The pilot claims the co-pilot made up the rape allegation to avoid being fired. Updated 9:46 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/former-alaska-airlines-pilot-sues-airline-contending-he-was-wrongly-fired-amid-false-rape-claims/


Hetman
11-02-2018, 09:52 PM
Avoidance is the key.

dawgdriver
11-03-2018, 10:09 AM
From the Seattle Times:

November 2, 2018 at 9:26 pm
Former Alaska Airlines pilot sues airline, contending he was wrongly fired amid false rape claims
The pilot claims the co-pilot made up the rape allegation to avoid being fired. Updated 9:46 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/former-alaska-airlines-pilot-sues-airline-contending-he-was-wrongly-fired-amid-false-rape-claims/

Just reading through your previous judgements and assertions on this case, I'm genuinely curious as to why you, of all people, would have posted this(?).

Among many other 'assumptions', some of which of you described as potentially criminal (Quote "The woman is waving the flag to excuse behavior that - if not criminal - is at least reprehensible), this:

Quote: "And seriously, best case scenario that a sixty-four year old married supervisor plied someone a quarter of a century younger than him with booze and she wound up in bed with him is NOT going to sit well with the jury."

Hmmm, your attached Seattle Times article lists FO Pina as a 40 year old and Capt Engelian as 51, I'm no math whiz, but that's hardly a quarter century.

Pesky facts and inconvenient truths have a nasty tendency to ruin a great story! I'll withhold judgment till the dust settles. In the interest of preserving your credibility, I'd recommend you do the same.


Excargodog
11-03-2018, 11:04 AM
Just reading through your previous judgements and assertions on this case, I'm genuinely curious as to why you, of all people, would have posted this(?).

Among many other 'assumptions', some of which of you described as potentially criminal (Quote "The woman is waving the flag to excuse behavior that - if not criminal - is at least reprehensible), this:

Quote: "And seriously, best case scenario that a sixty-four year old married supervisor plied someone a quarter of a century younger than him with booze and she wound up in bed with him is NOT going to sit well with the jury."

Hmmm, your attached Seattle Times article lists FO Pina as a 40 year old and Capt Engelian as 51, I'm no math whiz, but that's hardly a quarter century.

Pesky facts and inconvenient truths have a nasty tendency to ruin a great story! I'll withhold judgment till the dust settles. In the interest of preserving your credibility, I'd recommend you do the same.

The comments quoted were early on when the identity of the accused was not even known and when the claim being made was of a long career ar Alaska tacked on to a 20 year Air Force career, not a 20 year Reserve career running currently with a career at Alaska - leading to an erroneous assessment of the man's age. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

What I have now posted was THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY and it was posted without editorial comment. It makes it a whole lot easier to assess a situation when BOTH sides tell their story.

Mesabah
11-03-2018, 11:50 AM
Her story never made sense from the beginning, this should be an easy settlement for Englenian.

GaleHrd
11-03-2018, 03:35 PM
Has anyone seen the actual case that was filed by Paulís lawyer? Besides Betty Pena and Alaska Air who are the others listed?

GreatBigSea
11-03-2018, 04:21 PM
Has anyone seen the actual case that was filed by Paulís lawyer? Besides Betty Pena and Alaska Air who are the others listed?

The document is linked in the Seattle Times article.

GaleHrd
11-03-2018, 04:29 PM
Avoidance is the key.
Thanks to Betty Pina we are all at risk of losing a sense of camaraderie and a valuable support group outside the flight deck.

dawgdriver
11-03-2018, 06:19 PM
Thanks to Betty Pina we are all at risk of losing a sense of camaraderie and a valuable support group outside the flight deck.

Though she certainly didn't help, she's not the first and actions such as hers have ensured safe, sterile, distant behavior in the workplace for the foreseeable future. Hypersensitive and over-reactive HR departments make it a habit to discipline employees for casual conversation/opinions that snowflakes find offensive or objectionable. Sad (and boring) but true, but who needs it? Not worth the risk in today's #Guilty till proven innocent environment. Keep it PC; strictly business.

#slam-click

WHACKMASTER
11-03-2018, 07:11 PM
Though she certainly didn't help, she's not the first and actions such as hers have ensured safe, sterile, distant behavior in the workplace for the foreseeable future. Hypersensitive and over-reactive HR departments make it a habit to discipline employees for casual conversation/opinions that snowflakes find offensive or objectionable. Sad (and boring) but true, but who needs it? Not worth the risk in today's #Guilty till proven innocent environment. Keep it PC; strictly business.

#slam-click

Yup. As sad as it is thatís exactly the philosophy I subscribe to anymore. Go to work.....collect paycheck with minimum drama.

Klsytakesit
11-03-2018, 10:20 PM
Without question. The silver lining in the ďBlackout BettyĒ dark ugly cloud. Layovers are a solo experience...I now prefer it to the old way....Here is to hoping that the law suit is long, loud and ugly. And that in addition to the multi million dollar settlement it requires Brad and Ben to make a public apology

Packrat
11-03-2018, 11:59 PM
It'll never make it to court. The Anglers will settle...they always do and always have. Just go back to the female Capt. who sued for a "hostile work environment" because she claimed she found porn in the cockpit.

Paul will get some money but he won't get his job back.

I know where he can get a home based flying gig as a direct entry Captain if he's interested.

AwkwardTurtle
11-04-2018, 01:22 AM
It'll never make it to court. The Anglers will settle...they always do and always have. Just go back to the female Capt. who sued for a "hostile work environment" because she claimed she found porn in the cockpit.

Paul will get some money but he won't get his job back.

I know where he can get a home based flying gig as a direct entry Captain if he's interested.

Letís hope he doesnít cave on principle alone. The money in damages, lost wages, back pay and the smirk on his face every time he comes to work will be priceless.

A Squared
11-04-2018, 01:05 AM
It's an interesting commentary on today's airline hiring scene that someone could get fired from an airline after having 2 alcohol related "events" on layovers, within one year, file a lawsuit with fraudulent rape accusations, and still get hired as a direct entry captain at a feeder airline. Who at Empire airlines said: " Yeah, this is a pilot we want to roll the dice on ..." ????

captjns
11-04-2018, 02:15 AM
The comments quoted were early on when the identity of the accused was not even known and when the claim being made was of a long career ar Alaska tacked on to a 20 year Air Force career, not a 20 year Reserve career running currently with a career at Alaska - leading to an erroneous assessment of the man's age. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

What I have now posted was THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY and it was posted without editorial comment. It makes it a whole lot easier to assess a situation when BOTH sides tell their story.

Mindless character assaination comes to mind. A reasonable person has all their facts, concerning the case, before pounding damning comments on the key board when they have ALL THE FACTS, wouldn’t you agree. The Nancy Grace Show comes to mind... after the irreparable damage is done to a suspect, the old MEA CULPA card is thrown out and the supposedly accused miscreant becomes the victim and is labeled for life.

LNL76
11-04-2018, 05:03 AM
I don't know how she or anyone else who falsely accuses another of such a heinous crime can live with themselves. I hope she's treated like the pariah she is for the rest of her life and gets help for her obvious problems.

mainlineAF
11-04-2018, 06:29 AM
I don't know how she or anyone else who falsely accuses another of such a heinous crime can live with themselves. I hope she's treated like the pariah she is for the rest of her life and gets help for her obvious problems.



Was it proved she falsely accused him? I havenít followed this story.

captjns
11-04-2018, 07:11 AM
Was it proved she falsely accused him? I havenít followed this story.

Here ya go.


https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/former-alaska-airlines-pilot-sues-airline-contending-he-was-wrongly-fired-amid-false-rape-claims/


https://www.foxnews.com/travel/alaska-airlines-pilot-accused-of-rape-sues-co-pilot-carrier-amid-false-metoo-claims

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 07:32 AM
I don't know how she or anyone else who falsely accuses another of such a heinous crime can live with themselves. I hope she's treated like the pariah she is for the rest of her life and gets help for her obvious problems.

Sadly, the real victims of actions such as these are women who have legitimate claims, and, to a lessor extent, society as a whole. Recent high profile cases involving entertainment/media moguls, members of the Senate, House, Executive, and finally, the Legislative Branch, combined with events involving a local, personal and/or professional nature have ensured uber bland, safe, distant and sterile behavior from men who have been told to "Just shut up and step up. Do the right thing for a change." https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/09/18/sen_hirono_on_kavanaugh_men_need_to_shut_up_accuse r_needs_to_be_believed_and_i_believe_her.html

In drop-jaw fashion, our elected political leaders are informing us that Due Process, arguably the cornerstone of American jurisprudence, only applies in civil/criminal cases. A 35 year old, unverifiable, completely unsubstantiated, uncorroborated vague accusation, mysteriously leaked after hearings were closed, with no date, location, or witnesses, stalled and actually came within 2 votes of ending a Supreme Court nomination (2 other sexual assault survivors that came out of the wood work are now under criminal investigation for false testimony). The damage to the Justice's reputation, family and personal life, and the impact to us all, are merely acceptable collateral damage in today's weaponized #metoo movement. You can't make this sh!t up.

Unfortunately, these aren't the only landmines we face; we've witnessed countless mis-steps involving cultural, racial and other 'sensitivities' that have also ended people's careers at ALL levels. A slip of the tongue, an inadvertent misinterpretation, even the wrong Halloween costume, can land anyone in the unemployment line.

Only time will tell how these events will affect the way we interact as a whole in the long term. I can only speak for myself, friends and associates, but suffice to say behavior and conversation in the workplace have been severely constrained and, in my case, permanently altered. I used to enjoy the banter at work; now I keep my thoughts and comments private. What was once considered paranoid behavior is now considered prudent.

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 08:13 AM
Mindless character assaination comes to mind. A reasonable person has all their facts, concerning the case, before pounding damning comments on the key board when they have ALL THE FACTS, wouldn’t you agree. The Nancy Grace Show comes to mind... after the irreparable damage is done to a suspect, the old MEA CULPA card is thrown out and the supposedly accused miscreant becomes the victim and is labeled for life.

yup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCTREqf62Ck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

ImperialxRat
11-04-2018, 08:34 AM
Was it proved she falsely accused him? I havenít followed this story.

No, nothing has been proven. Both those articles above are good but they're just stating that the Capt has counter-sued both Alaska and Betty for the reasons listed.

I doubt we will ever find out what really happened. As mentioned I'm sure Alaska will settle with him and brush it under the rug and out of the media.

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 08:52 AM
We will never know all that happened on that overnight but in the suit the captain stated a few things that stand out. These are things he did not dispute:
She was in his hotel room.
He missed a call from crew scheduling on his cell phone (as opposed to his phone wasn’t on).
He answered a phone call from CS about their cut off time and got the time mixed up.
The fact the Copilot doesn’t work for Alaska anymore and the allegations of a second alcohol related incident certainly don’t put her in a positive light.
Still, why did they get a two calls during their rest about alcohol usage? You have to wonder who saw what for that to happen. Also the captain’s claim his cellphone was still on the wrong time zone after he missed a call is not very believable, the first thing every phone does when it reconnects is update to the local time.
As far as consent, the way the law works: if you are too drunk to positively give consent, and you end up having sex, you are getting raped, regardless of what sex you are. So, yes, if both of you are too drunk to make a decision and end up in bed together, the first person to cry wolf afterwards has a legal case.
Again, I don’t know what happened, and I am definitely not sure if he should have been fired (especially after she left under “circumstances”), but he isn’t telling the whole story either.

Feel free to correct me if I have any of the facts wrong, I don’t have a personal attachment to the case.

KnockKnock
11-04-2018, 08:53 AM
No, nothing has been proven. Both those articles above are good but they're just stating that the Capt has counter-sued both Alaska and Betty for the reasons listed.

I doubt we will ever find out what really happened. As mentioned I'm sure Alaska will settle with him and brush it under the rug and out of the media.
I think AS’ ability to brush this under the rug passed last March when BP went to the media. It’s been in multiple newspapers multiple times since then. It keeps popping up like whack-a-mole. I hope they have to actually DEAL with it now. Plus, I hope this shines a great big spot light on our lackluster HIMS program.

A Squared
11-04-2018, 09:05 AM
We will never know all that happened on that overnight but in the suit the captain stated a few things that stand out. These are things he did not dispute:
She was in his hotel room.
He missed a call from crew scheduling on his cell phone (as opposed to his phone wasnít on).
He answered a phone call from CS about their cut off time and got the time mixed up.
The fact the Copilot doesnít work for Alaska anymore and the allegations of a second alcohol related incident certainly donít put her in a positive light.
Still, why did they get a two calls during their rest about alcohol usage? You have to wonder who saw what for that to happen. Also the captainís claim his cellphone was still on the wrong time zone after he missed a call is not very believable, the first thing every phone does when it reconnects is update to the local time.
As far as consent, the way the law works: if you are too drunk to positively give consent, and you end up having sex, you are getting raped, regardless of what sex you are. So, yes, if both of you are too drunk to make a decision and end up in bed together, the first person to cry wolf afterwards has a legal case.
Again, I donít know what happened, and I am definitely not sure if he should have been fired (especially after she left under ďcircumstancesĒ), but he isnít telling the whole story either.

Feel free to correct me if I have any of the facts wrong, I donít have a personal attachment to the case.


Actually, there are phones which don't reliably update the time when moved to a different time zone. I have owned such phones. Sometimes you can force them to by turning them on and off again, other times it seems that you have to de-select automatic time updating and change to the new time zone manually. This absolutely is plausible, having lived it myself. Additionally, Engelin's lawsuit includes a fair amount of supporting evidence for this. As far as the calls, according to his lawsuit, an FA saw him in the hallway, having left the lounge with a glass of red wine and a glass of white wine, and thought he sounded drunk and called it in. The AS Duty Officer called him on his cell phone, which call he missed, then called his room.

Here's a link to the complaint filed by Engelien (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5027789-Engelien-Lawsuit-v-Alaska.html) It fills in some blanks.

As far as the consent/non-consent stuff, yeah that's all true, as far as it goes, but really what evidence does anyone have that there was sex? The best Pina could come up with was "I know he raped me because I found my panties zipped inside my purse" Even if we assume that here panties were in her purse, the conclusion that it meant he raped her is a non-sequitur of monumental proportions.

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 09:18 AM
Actually, there are phones which don't reliably update the time when moved to a different time zone. I have owned such phones. Sometimes you can force them to by turning them on and off again, other times it seems that you have to de-select automatic time updating and change to the new time zone manually. This absolutely is plausible, having lived it myself. Additionally, Engelin's lawsuit includes a fair amount of supporting evidence for this. As far as the calls, according to his lawsuit, an FA saw him in the hallway, having left the lounge with a glass of red wine and a glass of white wine, and thought he sounded drunk and called it in. The AS Duty Officer called him on his cell phone, which call he missed, then called his room.

Thanks for the info, reading it right now. As far as time updates, the last time I have seen it, was on a flip phone, and I spend a lot of time on technology boards/sites, and haven’t seen any post about it in a long time, hence my doubts.

A Squared
11-04-2018, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the info, reading it right now. As far as time updates, the last time I have seen it, was on a flip phone, and I spend a lot of time on technology boards/sites, and havenít seen any post about it in a long time, hence my doubts.


I edited my previous post with a link to the complaint. On the face of it, it seems like he has a pretty good case that his phone didn't update.

zondaracer
11-04-2018, 09:31 AM
On my phone, you can turn off the auto time zone adjustment. Most phones have this.

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 09:49 AM
I edited my previous post with a link to the complaint. On the face of it, it seems like he has a pretty good case that his phone didn't update.

Based on the picture I have to believe it. I just reset the time on my phone manually and it doesnít change the time the message/calls show as received. The allegations by MFR he did it afterwards to cover up really makes no sense.
Also you are totally right there is zero evidence of sex, sometimes he/she said can be enough, but you really have to wonder in this case.
When this started I was (and you can check my posts about it) leaning strongly in favor of her, but it definitely seems he got hosed by Alaska. He did everything right after maybe drinking too much and got fired for public relations.
Did she get fired after the second incident or did she walk? How the heck did she get hired again with all this hanging over her head?

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 09:58 AM
"Pina was ultimately delayed in making her way to the lounge, so Engelian went without her. He later texted Pina the directions. A screen shot of Pina's 1730 CT text exchange with Engelian shows Engelian's cell phone displayed an incorrect time of 15:30."

Could this be physical evidence pointing to an update failure on his phone?

Those quick to judge and convict should take a step back, wait for, THEN weigh in on the FACTS.

Again, I will withhold judgment until this is settled and recommend others do the same.

A Squared
11-04-2018, 10:03 AM
Based on the picture I have to believe it. I just reset the time on my phone manually and it doesnít change the time the message/calls show as received. The allegations by MFR he did it afterwards to cover up really makes no sense.
Also you are totally right there is zero evidence of sex, sometimes he/she said can be enough, but you really have to wonder in this case.
When this started I was (and you can check my posts about it) leaning strongly in favor of her, but it definitely seems he got hosed by Alaska. He did everything right after maybe drinking too much and got fired for public relations.
Did she get fired after the second incident or did she walk? How the heck did she get hired again with all this hanging over her head?


Certainly the possibility exists that sex occurred between them, but it seems to me that neither of them have any memory of whether it did or not. For sure, Pina stated pretty clearly in her lawsuit that he didn't have any recollection. it's a pretty big leap from "I don't really remember anything" to "therefore you drugged and raped me"



It's hard to tell for certain what the technically accurate HR term for her departure from Alaska was. She may have been "given the opportunity to resign". As far as her getting hired again, that was my question: how does anyone imagine that having her work for them would be a good idea?

GaleHrd
11-04-2018, 10:06 AM
Without question. The silver lining in the ďBlackout BettyĒ dark ugly cloud. Layovers are a solo experience...I now prefer it to the old way....Here is to hoping that the law suit is long, loud and ugly. And that in addition to the multi million dollar settlement it requires Brad and Ben to make a public apology
Unfortunately, if AS chooses to drag out the lawsuit itís Engelien who could lose everything financially before any kind of settlement. No telling how much heís had to fork out just to defend himself from the accusations made by Pina.

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 10:51 AM
As far as consent, the way the law works: if you are too drunk to positively give consent, and you end up having sex, you are getting raped, regardless of what sex you are. So, yes, if both of you are too drunk to make a decision and end up in bed together, the first person to cry wolf afterwards has a legal case.
Again, I don’t know what happened, and I am definitely not sure if he should have been fired (especially after she left under “circumstances”), but he isn’t telling the whole story either.

Feel free to correct me if I have any of the facts wrong, I don’t have a personal attachment to the case.


"...but he isn't telling the whole story either". Really? I guess I missed that. Could you please be more specific as to what he is missing and how you've arrived at that conclusion, which happens to conflict with your opening sentence in the same paragraph "I don’t know what happened"

Not referring to this particular case, or playing barracks lawyer, but to your legal assertion as to who has a legal case, shouldn't common sense dictate that if two consenting adults, who KNOWINGLY OPT to pay $11.00 for UNLIMITED alcohol, subsequently get smashed (helloooo..), and jump in bed (...never happens....), they assume equal responsibility for the outcome? Given two people's conscious decision(s) to over-indulge, thereby accepting all potential risks/outcomes, shouldn't they BOTH share equal responsibility, regardless of who cries foul first?

Errors in judgement and crimes committed under the influence, like DUI, aren't excused due to the impaired judgement of the perpetrator.

Back to this case, again, not weighing in, but wasn't the conclusion of the internally appointed investigator (reportedly a female and strong woman's rights advocate) that there was insufficient evidence, no police report, and essentially a case of 'he said/she said'? Wasn't the case dropped and both were re-instated, until Pina saw Engelian in the training center, threatened, and later went to the press and #Metoo?

Mesabah
11-04-2018, 11:06 AM
Not referring to this particular case, or playing barracks lawyer, but shouldn't common sense dictate that if two consenting adults, KNOWINGLY opt to pay $11.00 for UNLIMITED alcohol, subsequently get smashed (helloooo..), and jump in bed (never happens...), they assume equal responsibility for the outcome? Given two people's conscious decision(s) to over-indulge, thereby accepting all potential risks/outcomes, shouldn't they share equal responsibility? Should it matter who cries foul first?

Errors in judgement and crimes committed under the influence, like DUI, aren't excused due to the impaired judgement of the perpetrator.
Don't forget, there is a three hour gap between when they left the concierges room, and when the flight attendant saw them drunk in the hallway, and called the company. That gap in time is what made the drugging story suspicious to me. It's very possible she wanted to stay out drinking, and he had to drag her back to the hotel room. The people who know the captain personally, say he has impeccable character.

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 11:13 AM
Don't forget, there is a three hour gap between when they left the concierges room, and when the flight attendant saw them drunk in the hallway, and called the company. That gap in time is what made the drugging story suspicious to me. It's very possible she wanted to stay out drinking, and he had to drag her back to the hotel room. The people who know the captain personally, say he has impeccable character.

Again, as stated in my opening sentence, the question wasn't referring to this particular case, but symbian's legal claim of two consenting adults getting drunk, having sex, then the first to cry foul having a legal case.

As to the circumstances surrounding FO Pina's claims of being drugged, hopefully the civil suit will come up with concrete evidence, one way or the other. Obviously there was no criminal case as charges were never filed, not even a police report.

I don't know either of them personally but I've heard the same about him. His story, and by his own admission, involved drunken adulterous behavior and showed poor judgement for which he appears to accept full responsibility.

FO Pina, on the other hand, has accused him of a criminal offense, a felony punishable with prison sentences, fines and the very public label of sex offender for the rest of his life.

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 11:48 AM
"...but he isn't telling the whole story either". Really? I guess I missed that. Could you please be more specific as to what is he missing and how you've arrived at that conclusion? Odd that it followed your statement in the very same paragraph that read "I donít know what happened"

Not referring to this particular case, or playing barracks lawyer, but to your legal assertion as to who has a legal case, shouldn't common sense dictate that if two consenting adults, who KNOWINGLY OPT to pay $11.00 for UNLIMITED alcohol, subsequently get smashed (helloooo..), and jump in bed (...never happens....), they assume equal responsibility for the outcome? Given two people's conscious decision(s) to over-indulge, thereby accepting all potential risks/outcomes, shouldn't they BOTH share equal responsibility, regardless of who cries foul first? Wasn't this the conclusion of the internally appointed investigator, reportedly a female strong woman's rights advocate? No evidence, police report, he said/she said?

Errors in judgement and crimes committed under the influence, like DUI, aren't excused due to the impaired judgement of the perpetrator.

As you can see from my subsequent post, after reading his court filing, I think the captain was certainly not treated well by Alaska. He went through HIMS, complied with everything and was still fired for unsubstantiated rape allegations.
Having said that, I think if a crew member reports you on a recorded line, not anonymously, you are probably over the limit, the scheduler he talked to also said he sounded drunk, and after using his phone for several hours he still hadnít realized the time was wrong. Also he drank enough he could not remember getting to his room, after walking out with two glasses of wine 23 minutes before cut off time.
I didnít see him take any responsibility for that before I read the transcript.



Barracks lawyer reporting for duty:
The problem is, there is very little common sense in the courtroom. Yes, both opted to get drunk. No, just getting drunk does not mean accepting all possible risks/outcomes, saying that is saying every person who gets drunk canít later claim to have been raped and that would be wrong (I hope you agree here).
Off course, once both are drunk, you get the same situation as two persons with a gun, bumping into each other, and pulling their weapon. If ďstand your groundĒ applies both could legally shoot the other in self defense, so the person shooting first would be innocent (yes, super simplified, will never happen).
In case one accuses the other, the other drunk person canít claim (as you said) impairment as an excuse.
Never believing victim statements because he said/she said isnít an option (I think) so we are stuck with the first person to cry wolf will probably come out on top.
Not the best solution, but reality right now.

A Squared
11-04-2018, 11:51 AM
Don't forget, there is a three hour gap between when they left the concierges room, and when the flight attendant saw them drunk in the hallway, and called the company.


Well, to be more accurate, there is a 2:47 minute gap between when Engelien claimed that they left the Concierge lounge and when the the FODO called his cell phone. How long did the FA consider what to do before he/she picked up the phone to call Flight Ops? What does the FODO do when he gets a call like that? Does he immediately call the captain and say "what's up?", or is there a process started involving others whcih may take some time?

Excargodog
11-04-2018, 11:58 AM
Mindless character assaination comes to mind. A reasonable person has all their facts, concerning the case, before pounding damning comments on the key board when they have ALL THE FACTS, wouldnít you agree. The Nancy Grace Show comes to mind... after the irreparable damage is done to a suspect, the old MEA CULPA card is thrown out and the supposedly accused miscreant becomes the victim and is labeled for life.

No I DON't agree. The man certainly deserves to be able to make his case, and I wish he had made it earlier, and I have been critical of the whole "Dear Colleague" title IX attitude the #metoo people have advocated from the get-go. We should never give up on the presumption of innocence for political correctness sake. But you also do need to actually be willing to tell your side of the story and fight back, as he is starting to do now, or you are going to lose by default, both in the arena of public opinion and in the courts.

Now all that being said, his own statement that he doesn't khow how he got to his room or how she got to it - even if she was in the claimed adjacent bed - and that he wasn't with it enough to remember the time differences when he got the phone call, scarcely covers him with glory either.

It leaves an impression - factual or otherwise - of someone doing his best to get hammered by drinking heavily right up to the company limit.

Does that in and of itself warrant what the man has gone through? Certainly not. But it certainly doesn't indicate he is entirely blameless either.

This was an incident that could have EASILY been avoided had he made better choices, even if those he made were not illegal or in violation of company policy.

I once interceded to save the career of a young Lieutenant who did something this stupid. But he was a Lieutenant. Fifty year-olds are supposed to know better.

dawgdriver
11-04-2018, 02:47 PM
No I DON't agree. The man certainly deserves to be able to make his case, and I wish he had made it earlier, and I have been critical of the whole "Dear Colleague" title IX attitude the #metoo people have advocated from the get-go. We should never give up on the presumption of innocence for political correctness sake. But you also do need to actually be willing to tell your side of the story and fight back, as he is starting to do now, or you are going to lose by default, both in the arena of public opinion and in the courts.

Do you believe he had the luxury to make his case any earlier?? Like anyone in his situation, he sought legal counsel and was likely instructed to remain clear of all public forums, media and news outlets as anything he said could be used against him. No attorney worth their salt would allow their client to be firing off on public forums and interviews. Seriously, it's common sense.

I'm sure it must've been agonizing remaining silent while many were playing judge and jury, accusing him of date raping a coworker. I believe we can all agree-- himself included, that his debaucherous drunken behavior was unacceptable and he's reportedly taken steps to address his addiction. He is having to accept the consequences for his poor judgement and where the chips will fall. That said, he deserves to have his day in court against his accuser, who, although never filed charges, a police report and has no evidence, nonetheless claims to be a victim of criminal sexual assault.

Always more to the story. Again, I would urge patience.

GaleHrd
11-04-2018, 04:10 PM
The following was originally posted in Yikes2. Interesting his story wasnít of any interest yet her accusations were a hot topic in the media.....

It is truly devastating that Betty Pina and her attorneys are airing allegations in the press and convicting Captain Engelien in the court of public opinion. Frankly it's upsetting anytime due process is subverted. Per my consultation with a legal ethics professor, because Captain Engelien is not a named party in Betty Pinaís lawsuit and has not been charged with a crime, there is no reason why he canít defend himself against the allegations and share that he passed a lie detector test. Captain Engelien has a ďRight-to-ReplyĒ by law. However, it is my understanding that he is being told by Alaska Airline union reps. and mgt. that he canít talk about the case. Paul Engelien remains loyal to Alaska Airlines and wants to respect what I believe may be an unlawful and unfair gag order. Never-the-less, Captain Engelien is choosing to follow Alaska Airlines' order not to discuss the case and is refraining from making any statements. However, as his legal advocate, the law allows (may even require) me to share factual information that refutes Pinaís allegations if itís in my clientís best interest.

To that end, On April 11, 2018, my PR rep. issued the attached press release to the media outlets listed in the chart below. So far NONE of the media outlets have released a follow-up story alerting their readers, listeners or viewer of this development. Sadly, it appears that Pinaís drugging and rape allegations, assertion that this is a #MeToo movement issue and lawsuit against Alaska Airlines generates more interest than the fact that Captain Engelien passed a polygraph exam. The exam results directly refute Pinaís allegations that he drugged and raped her. KIRO 7ís Dave Wagner broke Pinaís original story and expressed an interest in covering Captain Engelienís side of the story only if Captain Engelien would do an in-person, on-camera interview. Without an on-camera interview, it appears Dave Wagner is not interested in updating KIRO 7's story with the polygraph results either. Alaska Airlineís gag order is making it virtually impossible for Captain Engelien to defend himself against Pinaís allegations.

MEDIA NOTIFIED VIA A PRESS RELEASE THAT CAPTAIN ENGELIEN PASSED A POLYGRAPH
Seattle Print/Internet
Seattle Times
Seattle PI
Puget Sound Business Journal
The Stranger
Seattle Radio/TV/Internet
KOMO
KIRO
KING
FOX
Non-Seattle Print/Internet
Spokesman Review
The Oregonian
Anchorage Daily News
LA Times
Dallas Morning News
Chicago Tribune
Tampa Bay Times / St. Pete Times
Boston Globe
Non-Seattle Print/Internet
San Francisco Chronicle / SFGate
Sacramento Bee
Arizona Republic
NY Times
NY Daily News
Washington Post
Atlanta Journal Constitution
Honolulu Star-Advertiser
National TV/Radio/Internet
ABC News and Good Morning America
CBS News and CBS This Morning
NBC News and Today Show
FOX News
International Business Times
Daily Mail
The Independent
FlyerTalk.com
Thepointsguy.com
Thecut.com

Mass Distribution Release
Associated Press (AP Wire)

Because the media doesnít appear interested in updating their coverage, yesterday I began sending personal emails directly to journalists of select media outlets that covered Pinaís story. I personally introduced myself, notified each journalist/producer that Captain Engelien passed a polygraph and requested that they update their coverage. I have only heard back from the two journalists in bold below. While they have not yet updated their coverage, Iím hopeful they will.

IBEX News
The Seattle Times
ABC News
Newsweek
HeraldNet
Daily Beast
Puget Sound Business Journal
Business Insider
The New York Times
The Washington Post
Mr. Leacock
Mr. Kamb
Ms. Thorbecke and Ms. Ghebremedhin
Mr. Palmer
Mr. Pattison
Ms. Messer
Mr. McIntosh
Mr. Zhang
Ms. Hauser
Ms. Eltagouri

The good news is thereís power in social media. If the mainstream media isnít interested in covering the full story, Iím hopeful I can get this information out via the power of the internet and social networking. I have included the press release below and hope that you will share this email with your peers and invite them to share it on social media, list-serves and other outlets to the extent they feel comfortable doing so. Iíd also like anyone who believes they may have information relevant to this case to contact Investigator Mortensen at [email protected] or myself at [email protected]

Warm regards,

Sheri Pewitt ​, Attorney​
206.941.0009 ph
206.467.3152 fax
[email protected]
www.pewittlaw.com

WHACKMASTER
11-04-2018, 04:12 PM
You go Paul. I hope you bury her and Alaska for ruining your career and causing you so much stress. Alaska HR has been out of control with all of the terminations lately. As for her, hopefully she gets to fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog poop for the rest of her career. What a royal

GaleHrd
11-04-2018, 05:17 PM
https://www.gofundme.com/Paul-fight039s-back

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 06:15 PM
You go Paul. I hope you bury her and Alaska for ruining your career and causing you so much stress. Alaska HR has been out of control with all of the terminations lately. As for her, hopefully she gets to fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog poop for the rest of her career. What a royal !

The only reason the company got involved was because he was drunk and behaved inappropriately enough a fellow crew member called the company on a recorded line saying they didn’t feel safe to fly with him. When he talked to the company less than 8 hours before his check in he was drunk enough he didn’t know what time it was and for them to notice he was drunk. He admitted all of this and entered HIMS.
There is zero evidence he raped anybody but in his own testimony he could not remember getting to his hotel room.
What she did was unforgivable, but let’s not forget what he did either.

WHACKMASTER
11-04-2018, 06:22 PM
The only reason the company got involved was because he was drunk and behaved inappropriately enough a fellow crew member called the company on a recorded line saying they didnít feel safe to fly with him. When he talked to the company less than 8 hours before his check in he was drunk enough he didnít know what time it was and for them to notice he was drunk. He admitted all of this and entered HIMS.
There is zero evidence he raped anybody but in his own testimony he could not remember getting to his hotel room.
What she did was unforgivable, but letís not forget what he did either.

Actually it sound like they BOTH got something slipped in their drinks while down and the bar.

symbian simian
11-04-2018, 06:39 PM
Actually it sound like they BOTH got something slipped in their drinks while down and the bar.

I’m definitely not a grassy-knoll-shooter person, but it seems odd that a 50 year old habitual drinker would not remember getting to his room after drinking for 3 hours (she seems to have a habit of forgetting what happened so no comment there). It just seems unlikely something like that would happen in a hotel bar in the Midwest...
I just hope the memory loss wasn’t convenient.

MarkThyme
11-04-2018, 07:57 PM
Did she get fired after the second incident or did she walk? How the heck did she get hired again with all this hanging over her head?

Because she's a she, which carries a lot of weight in an industry that trips all over itself to find diversity hires and signal its virtues, I'm guessing she was pointed toward the door and invited to exit. Termination would have had a good shot at making the news and continuing the PR nightmare for the company.

As for how she got hired again, when your company is in the position of hiring direct entry captains, you take what you can get. But I'd bet she's on a very short leash.

rickair7777
11-05-2018, 05:46 AM
Also the captain’s claim his cellphone was still on the wrong time zone after he missed a call is not very believable, the first thing every phone does when it reconnects is update to the local time.

Depends on where they actually were. If you're near (within a few miles) of a time zone line, phones may connect to a tower on the other side of the line and synch with the wrong time zone. A few towns used to be notorious for that, had to brief the crews to use the hotel alarm and not rely on the phone. The phones would sometimes even switch back and forth.

rickair7777
11-05-2018, 05:50 AM
As far as her getting hired again, that was my question: how does anyone imagine that having her work for them would be a good idea?

You should see some of the folks the commuters are hiring these days ( one of the reasons I left). Apparently they don't have a choice.

galleycafe
11-05-2018, 06:19 AM
Depends on where they actually were. If you're near (within a few miles) of a time zone line, phones may connect to a tower on the other side of the line and synch with the wrong time zone. A few towns used to be notorious for that, had to brief the crews to use the hotel alarm and not rely on the phone. The phones would sometimes even switch back and forth.

Page, AZ. Ask me how I know.

Plane Coffee

MySaabStory
11-05-2018, 07:35 AM
Depends on where they actually were. If you're near (within a few miles) of a time zone line, phones may connect to a tower on the other side of the line and synch with the wrong time zone. A few towns used to be notorious for that, had to brief the crews to use the hotel alarm and not rely on the phone. The phones would sometimes even switch back and forth.

True. Iíve had that happen before.

But that only accounts for a 1 hour time difference. Not 2.

symbian simian
11-05-2018, 08:21 AM
Depends on where they actually were. If you're near (within a few miles) of a time zone line, phones may connect to a tower on the other side of the line and synch with the wrong time zone. A few towns used to be notorious for that, had to brief the crews to use the hotel alarm and not rely on the phone. The phones would sometimes even switch back and forth.

First of all, I already retracted that based on screenshots from his phone, second, thatís not what happened here, as there was a 2 hour difference, this seemed to be the phone not updating to local time after a flight from a different time zone.

A Squared
11-05-2018, 08:29 AM
But that only accounts for a 1 hour time difference. Not 2.


Again ...the two hours is very clearly explained and well documented in the Complaint. You should read it. Or, you can continue posting about things you don't really understand. Your choice.

MySaabStory
11-05-2018, 08:36 AM
Again ...the two hours is very clearly explained and well documented in the Complaint. You should read it. Or, you can continue posting about things you don't really understand. Your choice.

Iím not making a judgment on the case. Iím just making a point about how phones sometimes update the time to nearby locations in a different time zone.

This is my first post on this topic. Not sure why all the hostility.

WhenPigsFLy
11-05-2018, 09:32 AM
So were she working now?

symbian simian
11-05-2018, 09:39 AM
So were she working now?

Empire Airlines :: Ohana (http://www.empireairlines.com/careers/ohana/)

Direct entry captain.......

AltoCumulus
11-06-2018, 05:46 AM
I was really trying to believe her but now after reading both complaints I have to say that I believe him.

His story is comparatively very logical. We drank, I got drunk, I barely remember anything. I shouldnít have been drinking so close o the window, I entered HIMS did my thing, etc.

Her story is essentially that I was drugged because I hold my liquor better than that. I know I was raped because my panties were in my purse. Say what?

This is a civil suite so the burden of proof is only a ďperponderance of the evidenceĒ so I think he has a really good shot at winning. What I would do is settle with everybody else in monetary terms. Then go all the way to trial against her.

A Squared
11-06-2018, 05:53 AM
Her story is essentially that I was drugged because I hold my liquor better than that. I know I was raped because my panties were in my purse. Say what?


Exactly. And she does not hold her liquor better than that, as evidenced by her drunken blackout episode on the Kauai overnight and as we learned, that her callsign in the Army was "Bob", short for Blackout Betty".

dawgdriver
11-06-2018, 06:40 AM
I was really trying to believe her...

Why? Sincere and honest question, just curious. Your rational observations and leanings are logical, yet there was the inclination to 'try to believe'; this appears to be shared by many so you're not the lone ranger, just wondering why. Not trying to be confrontational.

dawgdriver
11-06-2018, 07:28 AM
When the story initially broke, my thoughts were that he showed poor judgement, at best. I suspected the company had justification to terminate him with factual evidence of drinking already discovered, however, the rape charges were another story. The criminal allegations FO Pina had made were suspect as an internal investigation had been conducted and both were approved to return to flying status. Unlike the luxury of the Seattle press to mindlessly rule in favor of whatever agenda sells newspapers, the company made a conscious decision, presumably based on an investigation thorough enough to cover their liability, to retain both. That says a lot.

For her part, had FO Pina come forward or filed a police report without her employment being threatened (motive), her account would have been more credible.

Like most, I try to wait and listen to both sides because I've learned, the hard way, that things aren't always as they appear. This story built upon itself as one side was allowed to espouse their story through the press and #metoo while the other was barred from defending themselves publicly, no doubt agonizing given the media firestorm they faced.

While I'm glad there appears to be a re-evaluation of the case based on his version and her subsequent repeated drunken behavior and 'resignation', I'm curious as to why her story was initially deemed so credible, given the clear motive and lack of evidence(?)

We continue to suffer this same theme being played out on a national scale. Sexual assault/harrasment is a powerful tool and has been successfully employed in the workplace as a 'get out of jail free card' or for financial benefit. To automatically assume truth or jump to conclusions because of a hyper-activist, populist movement only worsens the condition. While we justifiably want to 'believe the survivors', the actual victims of sexual assault are paying the price when we rush to judgement of the accused without allowing for testimony and fact-finding. Pre-judging creates another set of victims: the falsely accused.

A Squared
11-06-2018, 08:26 AM
I'm curious as to why her story was initially deemed so credible, given the clear motive and lack of evidence(?).


I'd say that her motive might not have been obvious to those outside aviation. We read the article, and 2 things that pop out immediately, even though they are not explicitly stated are: "New hire in probationary period" and "investigation into drinking within the window" and for us, the significance of that is obvious it's not a bit leap to: " she knows she's toast and it's an act of desperation to save her job." Someone outside of the industry likely isn't going to recognize that she's in imminent danger of losing her job.

rickair7777
11-06-2018, 08:48 AM
When the story initially broke, my thoughts were that he showed poor judgement, at best. I suspected the company had justification to terminate him with factual evidence of drinking already discovered, however, the rape charges were another story. The criminal allegations FO Pina had made were suspect as an internal investigation had been conducted and both were approved to return to flying status. Unlike the luxury of the Seattle press to mindlessly rule in favor of whatever agenda sells newspapers, the company made a conscious decision, presumably based on an investigation thorough enough to cover their liability, to retain both. That says a lot.

For her part, had FO Pina come forward or filed a police report without her employment being threatened (motive), her account would have been more credible.

Like most, I try to wait and listen to both sides because I've learned, the hard way, that things aren't always as they appear. This story built upon itself as one side was allowed to espouse their story through the press and #metoo while the other was barred from defending themselves publicly, no doubt agonizing given the media firestorm they faced.

While I'm glad there appears to be a re-evaluation of the case based on his version and her subsequent repeated drunken behavior and 'resignation', I'm curious as to why her story was initially deemed so credible, given the clear motive and lack of evidence(?)

We continue to suffer this same theme being played out on a national scale. Sexual assault/harrasment is a powerful tool and has been successfully employed in the workplace as a 'get out of jail free card' or for financial benefit. To automatically assume truth or jump to conclusions because of a hyper-activist, populist movement only worsens the condition. While we justifiably want to 'believe the survivors', the actual victims of sexual assault are paying the price when we rush to judgement of the accused without allowing for testimony and fact-finding. Pre-judging creates another set of victims: the falsely accused.

x2.

I initially gave her the benefit, assuming nobody would go there lightly.

Now looks to me like PE is the victim, although he certainly put himself into a position, right up to the edge of the envelope, where things could (and did) go horribly wrong.

A Squared
11-06-2018, 09:31 AM
Interesting point on the outsider perspective. Thanks.

As you'd mentioned you tried to believe her, is it safe to assume you are outside aviation?




No. I think you may be confusing me with AltoCumulus. I don't think I've said anything that could be interpreted as "tried to believe her", or I didn't intend to anyway.

dawgdriver
11-06-2018, 10:19 AM
No. I think you may be confusing me with AltoCumulus. I don't think I've said anything that could be interpreted as "tried to believe her", or I didn't intend to anyway.

My bad.
Apologies.

Mesabah
11-06-2018, 10:28 AM
Well, to be more accurate, there is a 2:47 minute gap between when Engelien claimed that they left the Concierge lounge and when the the FODO called his cell phone. How long did the FA consider what to do before he/she picked up the phone to call Flight Ops? What does the FODO do when he gets a call like that? Does he immediately call the captain and say "what's up?", or is there a process started involving others whcih may take some time?That's all true, but she said she was drugged on her second glass of wine, the most common date rape drugs are fast acting. At her bodyweight she would have been likely out cold, or severely impaired at least an hour before they were shown on the hotel camera, returning to the room. It immediately seemed to me, that the story she was drugged, was made up to save her job. It's still possible something happened in the room, we will never know, and they both were probably drinking inside the window.



Can you get fired from Alaska for entering the HIMS program while on probation? ALPA legal should have been all over this.

A Squared
11-06-2018, 11:49 AM
It's still possible something happened in the room, we will never know,



I'd say it was fairly likely that "something happened", as in them having sex.



In his lawsuit, PE makes a point of stating that when the phone woke him up, she was lying on the other bed. What is conspicuously absent is mention of her state of dress. The elephant in the room is that in her lawsuit she describes waking up naked from the waist down. I know if I were in PE's situation, and when I had woken up she was lying fully clothed on the other bed, after her saying she woke up half naked, I'd damn sure make a point of saying so in my lawsuit. This seems to strongly imply that she was indeed half naked when they woke up, whcih in turn strongly implies something happened. Doesn't prove it of course, but there's a pretty strong implication.


Other factor: Back when Pina's lawsuit was fairly fresh and current, PE released an announcement that he's taken a polygraph test and passed, and it included the questions that he'd answered and passed.



2. Do you have memories of sexual contact with Betty, without her participation and consent? No
3. Did you physically force or coerce Betty to engage in sexual contact with you? No


Those questions were not just questions the polygraph operator asked randomly as they popped into his head. You can bet your next paycheck that they were very carefully selected and worded beforehand in consultation with his attorney. This is essentially a tacit admission that he either recalls having sex with her, or strongly suspects that he might have. If he was confident and sure that they hadn't had sex at all, that would have been the question he and his attorney would have directed the polygraph operator to ask him.

AltoCumulus
11-07-2018, 12:52 AM
Why? Sincere and honest question, just curious. Your rational observations and leanings are logical, yet there was the inclination to 'try to believe'; this appears to be shared by many so you're not the lone ranger, just wondering why. Not trying to be confrontational.

Fair question,

I tried to believe her because when you read the story on the first-pass it seems so unbelievable. So, on the 2nd pass I interpret all the facts in the light most favorable to her. I do this because if I still canít believe her after all the facts are full-gain in her favor, then the only thing left is that she is lying.

The only thing just as crazy as her story, is the thought that a grown woman would not only make up the fact that she was raped to save her job, but that AFTER THE PLOY WORKED, would then double-down on the lie with a lawsuit.

When my son was 6-ish he got into a little brouhaha at school because he lost a toy and then accused one of his friends of ďstealing itĒ. We had a little talk about being SURE before you make an accusation of that magnitude.

A Squared
11-07-2018, 02:18 AM
would not only make up the fact that she was raped to save her job,


Is that crazy, or just cynical and amoral? It worked. She kept her job through an investigation into alcohol policy violation in her probationary period. If she hadn't performed a public encore in Lihue, she'd likely still have it. I agree, I'm not sure how the lawsuit figured into her strategy, it seemed like she'd achieved her goals.

A Squared
11-07-2018, 02:27 AM
Can you get fired from Alaska for entering the HIMS program while on probation? ALPA legal should have been all over this.


I don't know. I guess that would depend on specifics the agreement between Alaska and ALPA. I do know that at many airlines, pilots in their probationary period don't enjoy the same employment protections as a pilot who is past the probationary period. There's no overarching legal principle that compels an airline to give a pilot who's violated alcohol policy to offer a second chance based on HIMS participation. It's common, but not some sort of inherent right (beyond being specified in a contract). So without knowing the details, I'd say its certainly possible that there's no HIMS second chance available to probies.

PNWFlyer
11-07-2018, 05:46 AM
If you are on probation and walk into the CP's Office and say you need help and want to enter HIMS you will not be fired.

If you get in trouble and then try to enter HIMS to save your job, you are most likely out of luck.

Brainsurgeon
11-07-2018, 08:35 AM
I never believed any of her story from the onset. With the Hawaii incident that just verified for myself what I thought all along. I'm guessing some of her Army contemporaries are going to get subpoenaed to testify to any alleged behavior.

I would love to see PE financially destroys her, Alaska and the law firm that conducted this "investigation".

Further I hope ole Bob forever keeps the reputation of a pilot pariah that she so richly deserves.

A Squared
11-07-2018, 09:00 AM
I never believed any of her story from the onset.


Well, at a minimum, I think we can believe the portions of her story which are matched by the account in PE's lawsuit.

rickair7777
11-07-2018, 09:11 AM
I never believed any of her story from the onset. With the Hawaii incident that just verified for myself what I thought all along. I'm guessing some of her Army contemporaries are going to get subpoenaed to testify to any alleged behavior.

I would love to see PE financially destroys her, Alaska and the law firm that conducted this "investigation".

Further I hope ole Bob forever keeps the reputation of a pilot pariah that she so richly deserves.

Good luck with that. Past or subsequent behavior is likely to be excluded from a courtroom, since it's "prejudicial" info.

A Squared
11-07-2018, 09:17 AM
Good luck with that. Past or subsequent behavior is likely to be excluded from a courtroom, since it's "prejudicial" info.


That's true of a criminal prosecution. Is that true in a civil lawsuit?

rickair7777
11-07-2018, 10:58 AM
That's true of a criminal prosecution. Is that true in a civil lawsuit?

It's not hard and fast by any means, but the defense will certainly try to exclude stuff like that. Depends on state law and precedent, and the judge.

The principle is that cases should be tried on their merits alone, and it muddies the water to bring in history which was not part of the circumstances in question. Somewhat understandable, otherwise you could pretty much convict someone for simply having done it a few times previously and not having an alibi.

Going2Baja
11-07-2018, 08:10 PM
You go Paul. I hope you bury her and Alaska for ruining your career and causing you so much stress. Alaska HR has been out of control with all of the terminations lately. As for her, hopefully she gets to fly a cargo plane full of rubber dog poop for the rest of her career. What a royal

Totally Agree....AAG has ruined many a family. They claim they are 'family based.' But FAR from it. Make them pay Paul!!!

Baja.

BTW - Is that jackass AFPilot guy still here that used to argue what a great place AS is? Haven't seen him in a while. Truth comes out dude. Sad Truth.

TurbineDriver
11-12-2018, 04:16 AM
So whatís the current status? Are both Pina and the captain still at Alaska? Or have they both been fired by now?

Reactivity
11-12-2018, 04:18 AM
So whatís the current status? Are both Pina and the captain still at Alaska? Or have they both been fired by now?

You should read the thread. It's all in there.

A Squared
11-12-2018, 05:00 AM
So whatís the current status? Are both Pina and the captain still at Alaska? Or have they both been fired by now?


Short answer, both fired.

Excargodog
11-12-2018, 02:33 PM
Good luck with that. Past or subsequent behavior is likely to be excluded from a courtroom, since it's "prejudicial" info.


Not only that, but everything she's got still wouldn't replace what he's lost.

There's no way to win this game. You need to avoid it.

MusicPilot
11-12-2018, 09:08 PM
If you make a call or get a call in the eastern time zone then travel to the western time zone, your phone will update the call time to the time zone your in. Same thing for voicemail and messages. In his case, his phone log reverted back to pacific time once he arrived back on the west coast.

WhaleSurfing
11-13-2018, 01:01 PM
Good luck with that. Past or subsequent behavior is likely to be excluded from a courtroom, since it's "prejudicial" info.

Depends on time since previous incident. Defense will always argue prejudicial. In a termination arbitration almost everything is admitted regardless of objection but an arbiter will always weight this in his decision and state so upfront.

wrxpilot
11-13-2018, 03:06 PM
That's all true, but she said she was drugged on her second glass of wine, the most common date rape drugs are fast acting. At her bodyweight she would have been likely out cold, or severely impaired at least an hour before they were shown on the hotel camera, returning to the room. It immediately seemed to me, that the story she was drugged, was made up to save her job. It's still possible something happened in the room, we will never know, and they both were probably drinking inside the window.


Date rape drugs are now the favorite item of blame for getting back out drunk. The reality is that they are very, very rarely used and outside of a few high profile cases (Bill Cosby), the actual culprit is excessive alcohol consumption.

ShyGuy
11-14-2018, 06:01 AM
Iíve nothing to comment on or add about this thread subject. Just want to say that now my iPhone is over 2 yrs old, itís really acting up. Battery depletes faster than ever before even with no changes in usage/apps. Worse part is when I land from east to west or vice versa, the phone isnít updating the new time zone. It used to be instant as soon as I came off airplane mode. It would pickup the nearest tower and update the time. Now Iíve noticed it can 20 minutes to an hour before the time displays correctly. All settings are default, eg, auto update time option checked. I donít get it. Itís definitely something Iím looking at more before going to sleep to make sure my time is accurate before setting the alarm for next day. It feels like Apple makes this stuff last 2 years and then start breaking down so you buy their next new iPhone.

Winston
11-14-2018, 06:43 AM
I landed in Maui yesterday and didnít notice until about two hours later that my iPhone 7 was still on west coast time. Iíd been texting and making calls with it several times in those two hours.

Toggled airplane mode and it finally reset to local time.

MySaabStory
11-14-2018, 06:47 AM
For a good defense...we should all keep an IPhone 5 or earlier handy.

tomgoodman
11-14-2018, 08:07 AM
I landed in Maui yesterday and didnít notice until about two hours later that my iPhone 7 was still on west coast time. Iíd been texting and making calls with it several times in those two hours.

Toggled airplane mode and it finally reset to local time.

If you think thatís bad, I got a call from Crew Sked assigning me a trip, ten years after I had retired. :D

MarkThyme
11-14-2018, 08:26 AM
Just want to say that now my iPhone is over 2 yrs old, itís really acting up. Battery depletes faster than ever before even with no changes in usage/apps.

It feels like Apple makes this stuff last 2 years and then start breaking down so you buy their next new iPhone.

Itís got nothing to do with Apple. Lipo batteries are good for a certain number of charge cycles. Under normal use, that means about two years. After that, they do start to run down very quickly and exhibit some odd, unpredictable behaviors.

My iPhone 6 is just over four years old. I replaced the original battery after two years, and replaced that battery just recently, two years after the first one. $29 at an Apple Store or authorized service location. I got the most recent replacement done at Best Buy.

Pogey Bait
11-14-2018, 08:31 AM
If you think thatís bad, I got a call from Crew Sked assigning me a trip, ten years after I had retired. :D

Thatís what you call a Black Slip.

A Squared
11-14-2018, 08:56 AM
If you think thatís bad, I got a call from Crew Sked assigning me a trip, ten years after I had retired. :D


Did you take it?

Mesabah
11-14-2018, 08:56 AM
Iíve nothing to comment on or add about this thread subject. Just want to say that now my iPhone is over 2 yrs old, itís really acting up. Battery depletes faster than ever before even with no changes in usage/apps. Worse part is when I land from east to west or vice versa, the phone isnít updating the new time zone. It used to be instant as soon as I came off airplane mode. It would pickup the nearest tower and update the time. Now Iíve noticed it can 20 minutes to an hour before the time displays correctly. All settings are default, eg, auto update time option checked. I donít get it. Itís definitely something Iím looking at more before going to sleep to make sure my time is accurate before setting the alarm for next day. It feels like Apple makes this stuff last 2 years and then start breaking down so you buy their next new iPhone.
Yeah, IMHO the new iPhone is not durable enough to have a $1000 price tag.



As Mark said above, have your battery replaced.

rickair7777
11-14-2018, 10:06 AM
Itís got nothing to do with Apple. Lipo batteries are good for a certain number of charge cycles. Under normal use, that means about two years. After that, they do start to run down very quickly and exhibit some odd, unpredictable behaviors.

My iPhone 6 is just over four years old. I replaced the original battery after two years, and replaced that battery just recently, two years after the first one. $29 at an Apple Store or authorized service location. I got the most recent replacement done at Best Buy.

Avoid leaving the phone anywhere it will get hot, such as in a hot car. That will reduce battery life.

A Squared
11-14-2018, 10:21 AM
Avoid leaving the phone anywhere it will get hot, such as in a hot car. That will reduce battery life.


Also, avoid leaving phone anywhere that your drunken FO can vomit on it.

AtlCSIP
11-14-2018, 01:52 PM
Also, avoid leaving phone anywhere that your drunken FO can vomit on it.

I would so like to hear that story!

ShyGuy
11-14-2018, 04:02 PM
Yeah, IMHO the new iPhone is not durable enough to have a $1000 price tag.



As Mark said above, have your battery replaced.

Can you replace a battery on an iPhone 7?

snackysmores
11-14-2018, 06:16 PM
At Horizon we got a video FCIF in which Carlos said "Captains, you are the ranking member of your entire crew and have an important leadership role. This level of authority dictates that you will be held to a higher level of accountability for the choices you make while on a layover... Unwanted or inappropriate sexual advances will not be tolerated."

Thanks for the heads up Carlos.

MarkThyme
11-14-2018, 06:52 PM
Can you replace a battery on an iPhone 7?

You can, if you know how. It sounds like you don't, so have it done at an Apple authorized service provider. It takes all of an hour or so and costs $29. You might be able to get it done cheaper somewhere else, but it will probably use a cheap, low-quality battery. I'm just not a fan of having one of those close to any part of my body.

Ispeakjive
11-16-2018, 01:02 PM
Is it fraternization if you pay for it?

GUFN
11-16-2018, 01:25 PM
Can you replace a battery on an iPhone 7?

If you can fly a jet, you can replace you phone battery.

https://www.ifixit.com/

Sike
11-18-2018, 09:56 PM
Apple, Google, Samsung, you name it. They're all engineered to fail and we're all nitwits for ever believing otherwise. They want you to stick with the two year upgrade cycle, even though it's not as necessary as it was, say five to seven years ago. A massive class action lawsuit would straighten them out, but it'll probably never happen.

A Squared
11-18-2018, 10:05 PM
Apple, Google, Samsung, you name it. They're all engineered to fail and we're all nitwits for ever believing otherwise.


Not to mention that Apple got busted programming their phones to intentionally degrade performance after a certain period of time.

NewGuy01
11-19-2018, 07:31 AM
I had a new charging port and battery installed at a place in downtown Issaquah. Nice that it was walking distance from Rogue River brewery. It was expensive but I highly recommend it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

viper548
11-19-2018, 09:38 AM
If your phone doesn't update the time to the new time zone put it in airplane mode then take it out of airplane mode. That works for me every time.

Reactivity
11-19-2018, 03:48 PM
Apple, Google, Samsung, you name it. They're all engineered to fail and we're all nitwits for ever believing otherwise. They want you to stick with the two year upgrade cycle, even though it's not as necessary as it was, say five to seven years ago. A massive class action lawsuit would straighten them out, but it'll probably never happen.

That's a difficult argument to make when the current price for an Apple-authorized battery replacement is $29. It was $80. About a month before Apple instituted the $29 program, I had my battery replaced at the higher price. They sent me a refund for the difference six months later. I didn't ask for it. They just did it. Out of the blue one day, a check with a letter explaining what it was for showed up in the mail.

Reactivity
11-19-2018, 04:23 PM
Not to mention that Apple got busted programming their phones to intentionally degrade performance after a certain period of time.

Technically true, this being APC where we play fast and loose with the facts when we wish to complain about something. However...

Apple programmed the iPhone to reduce performance when the battery reaches the end of its design life in order to prevent unexpected shutdowns. Before they did that, your battery indicator might read somewhere around 20% or more, but the phone could shut down while performing some processor-intensive task because the battery was unable to maintain required voltage in that condition under that load. This, obviously, leads to very unhappy phone users, whose belief that a 20% charged battery should last them at least a few more hours is not entirely unreasonable. So now, when your battery gets old, the phone slows down a little bit when it's working harder, ensuring that it stays powered on at lower battery charge levels, extending the useful life of the phone and its battery beyond the two years or so that it takes to run the battery to its charge cycle limit. If you don't want to upgrade, replace the battery, and you're back to full speed.

Under the current version of iOS (and might be one version previous to the current version), the performance degradation function kicks in (if I remember correctly from my recent experience with it) after the first unexpected shutdown, and not until then. You will receive an alert telling you that it has turned that function on. You have the option of inhibiting that behavior, maintaining full speed at the risk of experiencing unexpected shutdowns.

dawgdriver
11-24-2018, 07:53 AM
Wow,....this thread sure got derailed

lowflying
11-24-2018, 11:38 AM
That's a difficult argument to make when the current price for an Apple-authorized battery replacement is $29. It was $80. About a month before Apple instituted the $29 program, I had my battery replaced at the higher price. They sent me a refund for the difference six months later. I didn't ask for it. They just did it. Out of the blue one day, a check with a letter explaining what it was for showed up in the mail.

Lol. It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart. The lower price is because they got caught throttling older phones.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-battery-replacement-price-slow-down-apology

Reactivity
11-24-2018, 02:14 PM
Lol. It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart. The lower price is because they got caught throttling older phones.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/28/16827248/apple-iphone-battery-replacement-price-slow-down-apology

...which they explained is intended to increase reliability of older phones with weak batteries, and can be remedied by replacing the battery. You'd think people would appreciate that their phones won't suddenly shut down, but "Apple Intentionally Slows Down Older Phones" makes better headlines without the explanation.

And I don't care why they offer the cheap replacement price. All I care is that they do. Even at $80, it was a better deal than paying 10 times that to replace the phone after two years.

And to get this thread on track: If you must interact with your female coworkers at any time in any way, wear a body cam. Better safe than sorry.

All Bizniz
11-25-2018, 09:19 AM
And to get this thread on track: If you must interact with your female coworkers at any time in any way, wear a body cam. Better safe than sorry.
A bodycam? 😲
Isn't that taking it a bit too far?

Hetman
11-25-2018, 11:29 AM
The buddy system works.

Excargodog
11-25-2018, 11:32 AM
The buddy system works.

A threesome? :D:D:D

Karnak
11-25-2018, 02:14 PM
A threesome? :D:D:D

I had one last night.

There were a couple of no-shows, but I made do.

RadialGal
11-25-2018, 05:14 PM
Can I play in your sandbox now Guys?

You have no idea how awkward it has gotten for us Gal's in the Cockpit. I miss the days of pulling off a Yoke cover and seeing who gave the titties a better rating.

I feel for you guys; I do. But do you have any idea what this is going to do for us Sane(ish) Ladies on the Line? Adios (or in her case Aloha) Layover social life!

I don't think I will be able to hear the song Black Betty the same again......

Golly

RadialGal

symbian simian
11-25-2018, 05:21 PM
Can I play in your sandbox now Guys?

You have no idea how awkward it has gotten for us Gal's in the Cockpit. I miss the days of pulling off a Yoke cover and seeing who gave the titties a better rating.

I feel for you guys; I do. But do you have any idea what this is going to do for us Sane(ish) Ladies on the Line? Adios (or in her case Aloha) Layover social life!

I don't think I will be able to hear the song Black Betty the same again......

Golly

RadialGal

My wife and I are both airline pilot, both of us have been doing this for 20 years (together). It very unlikely you get into trouble if you behave normally (and that includes drinking the layover length allows).

Packrat
11-26-2018, 07:14 AM
"Black Betty". Now that's some funny stuff. Kinda dates you though, RG.

Bam-a-lam!

dawgdriver
11-26-2018, 07:17 AM
I had one last night.

There were a couple of no-shows, but I made do.

LMFAO. Well played, sir.

A Squared
11-26-2018, 07:17 AM
"Black Betty". Now that's some funny stuff. Kinda dates you though, RG.

Bam-a-lam!


Y'know, sometimes people listen to songs which came out before they were born. Just sayin'

dawgdriver
11-26-2018, 08:46 AM
Can I play in your sandbox now Guys?

You have no idea how awkward it has gotten for us Gal's in the Cockpit. I miss the days of pulling off a Yoke cover and seeing who gave the titties a better rating.

I feel for you guys; I do. But do you have any idea what this is going to do for us Sane(ish) Ladies on the Line? Adios (or in her case Aloha) Layover social life!

I don't think I will be able to hear the song Black Betty the same again......

Golly

RadialGal

I feel for you too,... but you have to put yourself in men's shoes; what may be unpleasant to you is career-ending for men. Not exactly apples to apples, men are primarily the ones getting the bulk of dreaded calls from HR. Not saying the reverse doesn't happen, but the number of complaints/terminations pale in comparison and are far less likely to be taken seriously. And yes, I've witnessed jaw-dropping harassment-- from women, more times than I can count.

Unfortunately the damage is likely to be permanent. Relations have been strained and the workplace tension is palpable; sexual correctness is here to stay. FO Pina didn't help matters, but the litany of accusations, coming from every sector, private and public, have ensured a 'new normal'. In a fashion reminiscent of the Kavanaugh nomination (circus?), the threads relating to this story reveal how many don't hesitate to convict men without a shred of evidence. ("We believe the survivors!!")

Considering a recent study that found millennials to consider even innocuous compliments to be sexual harassment, it doesn't appear conditions will improve anytime soon, especially when combined with the US government's definition of harassment. Originally defined as "Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitute sexual harassment when this conduct explicitly or implicitly affects an individual's employment"..... Sounds quite reasonable until they later added... "unreasonably interferes with an individual's work performance, or creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment." The addition makes it far more nebulous, difficult to define, and up to the whims of the accuser and rests on the shoulders of the accused to disprove. One only needs to be 'offended' to qualify and the corporate culture will quickly investigate for fear of liability. What constitutes offensive is subjective but weighs heavily in favor of the initiator.

Short answer, due to the actions of a few (opportunists), the reactions of others (special interest groups), and over-reactions of the hyper-politicized (terrified) corporate and government culture, the weaponization of the woman's movement in the workplace has taken what was once much-needed woman equal rights, protection and compensation, to a ridiculously paranoid level of discourse between genders. Given the similar tensions surrounding topics dealing with racial sensitivities, it only makes sense that lite, fun, social banter in the workplace has been placed in the same muzzled category as religion and politics. Who needs it?? The fear of losing one's career via an innocent comment or misinterpreted word is not worth the risk. More and more, the philosophy of keeping discussions/interactions sterile, sober, and boring is setting in.

Slam, click. Leave the sandbox at home.

RadialGal
11-26-2018, 10:44 AM
dawgdriver

Oh don't get me wrong; you poor guys are screwed; defiantly got the stinky end of the stick. Just wanted to put the ladies perspective out there. Yours is potentially job ending; mine is more annoying. But it is so frustrating.

I feel like pretty soon we will be rolling around the ramp in a Hamster Ball.

PS "Black Betty" was before my time; but I still love the song!

Now you kids get the heck off my lawn!

RadialGal

ShyGuy
11-26-2018, 11:52 AM
From the comic 'Coffee and Pretzels'..............


http://airlinefiles.com/images/Harassment.jpg

ForeverJunior
11-26-2018, 12:01 PM
Coffee & Pretzels is excellent. I follow on Instagram.

I know he's one of our Airbus guys. His cartoons throughout this whole merger process have been on-point.

sourdough44
11-26-2018, 01:53 PM
One of my favorite songs to hum on the layover.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lpzqQst-Sg8

Klsytakesit
11-27-2018, 07:31 PM
Just makes more sense and cents....
Say hi, go fly, get in van, go to hotel, get key, go to room...repeat for 4 days...go home

WhaleSurfing
11-28-2018, 09:47 AM
My wife and I are both airline pilot, both of us have been doing this for 20 years (together). It very unlikely you get into trouble if you behave normally (and that includes drinking the layover length allows).

Hopefully your wife does the grammar in your family!

badflaps
11-28-2018, 10:08 AM
This all began when the Supreme Court let the old haybags come back.:(

symbian simian
11-28-2018, 12:26 PM
Hopefully your wife does the grammar in your family!

and that includes drinking the layover length allows
I might have missed an IF in there somewhere...

badflaps
11-28-2018, 01:35 PM
and that includes drinking the layover length allows
I might have missed an IF in there somewhere...

Drinking the layover length sounds more fun.

dawgdriver
11-29-2018, 07:03 AM
Just makes more sense and cents....
Say hi, go fly, get in van, go to hotel, get key, go to room...repeat for 4 days...go home

But,...wait...what?....THAT'S NOT HOW IT WAS PORTRAYED IN THE 'RIDDLE BROCHURES??...!?!

FlyBitcoin
11-29-2018, 09:28 AM
I find this story to be very significant not only for the airline community but for the nation. Interesting that when you search this story online, you still see 99% or more of the information from the original claims while news of the latest suit by Capt. Engelien is almost nowhere to be found.
Somehow, CNN finally picked up the story and was trending well on their Apple News feed.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/28/us/alaska-airlines-lawsuit/index.html

FlyBitcoin
11-29-2018, 12:21 PM
Also, as a physician who worked in a Rape Crisis Center during the 1990's, I am constantly dumbfounded at the number of people who make claims without reporting the crime and getting the proper help that is available in the hours after the event. There are highly trained, compassionate people there to make sure you get help regarding a potential STD or pregnancy, and tactfully deal with any injuries while collecting evidence in the most unobtrusive way possible. You think you might have been drugged? Then they can run a toxicology screen ideally within 12 hours. Behind the scenes, we make detailed reports and submit all evidence under lock and key with proper chain of custody. That is the procedure. Crimes like sexual assault have serious consequences, and there is a proper way to get the necessary medical treatment and obtain evidence in the aftermath. Some of the most talented docs and nurses in the country work in these clinics, and even if you are in a "strange" city, there is a uniformity in the protocols and how these trained professionals do their jobs.

Alcohol intoxication when dehydrated and with little food on board (well-known that particular lounge does not serve much food at all) can occur quickly and mimic lots of drugs. To say or report that one was drugged, must be accompanied by the proper toxicology screen or it should not be mentioned at all, nor used to smear another's reputation if it can never be proven in the future. I find that the media is quite derelict in reporting accusations that could be proven, but the window for proof has long since closed. Spending hundreds of words to describe an event, thinking the word "accused" or "alleged" appearing once will somehow lessen the impact, is ludicrous. Google does a great job of indexing last names and a lousy job of indexing the word "alleged".

The other issue in our social media, click-bait-fueled society is that people love to claim "freedom of speech" yet are unaware that right is not a license to slander someone, nor is it part of a "free" press.

This case has the potential to rewrite how events like this are handled at the corporate level and how they are investigated by these paid "third parties". I feel terrible for both human parties involved for different reasons, and it should have never come to this. I don't feel sorry at all for the corporate parties who appear to be quite delinquent.

I always felt that airlines have a certain disdain for their passengers, but not until reading these boards did I realize how much disdain they can exhibit toward the talented (but, in their eyes, replaceable) professionals that deliver their product.

tyler durden
11-29-2018, 12:48 PM
Did I miss something or did they not state in the CNN article that Betty Pina was no longer employed by Alaska Airlines? I read through it twice, couldn't find it(?). Intentional? Would it shed a bad light on the #MeToo movement?

PNWFlyer
11-29-2018, 02:16 PM
Did I miss something or did they not state in the CNN article that Betty Pina was no longer employed by Alaska Airlines? I read through it twice, couldn't find it(?). Intentional? Would it shed a bad light on the #MeToo movement?


According to LinkedIn

Left Alaska July 2018
Hired at Empire Airlines / ĎOhana Airlines as a street Captain Sep 2018.

FlyBitcoin
11-29-2018, 03:25 PM
They left out that she was no longer employed at Alaska, and the part from the suit that mentions her conduct at LIH while still at Alaska Air. One of those is pretty easy to verify and should have been included in the summary article, the other, not so easy to verify for the average CNN reporter. Reporter probably did not know or did not want to research that Ohana is not part of Alaska.
Here is the full text of the suit: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5027789-Engelien-Lawsuit-v-Alaska.html

GaleHrd
11-29-2018, 10:59 PM
At least CNN used a better picture of Engelien.

joepilot
12-01-2018, 04:35 AM
I had one last night.

There were a couple of no-shows, but I made do.

Was that in BKK? (or MNL, SGN, HKG)

Joe

tyler durden
12-01-2018, 08:55 AM
Was that in BKK? (or MNL, SGN, HKG)

Joe

No, they always $how up there....

GaleHrd
12-08-2018, 09:45 AM
Something is going on at Ohana, has anyone heard if itís a BOB event?

Ray Red
12-10-2018, 09:00 AM
Something is going on at Ohana, has anyone heard if itís a BOB event?

This woman is leading a tragic life, and it probably will not end well for her. A new event would not surprise me....I heard through the grapevine that during her short stay at Ak she slept with at least 10 different guys.

NewGuy01
12-10-2018, 09:28 AM
New holiday mantra:

https://youtu.be/CJB9GP5gyAw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ShyGuy
12-10-2018, 10:32 AM
This woman is leading a tragic life, and it probably will not end well for her. A new event would not surprise me....I heard through the grapevine that during her short stay at Ak she slept with at least 10 different guys.

Perhaps. But she's single and maybe the individual hooked up with other single men. But what's the excuse of married pilots sleeping with her?

A Squared
12-10-2018, 09:34 PM
But what's the excuse of married pilots sleeping with her?


What do you know about PE's relationship to the woman to whom he is legally married? There are a whole bunch of people who are estranged but still legally married, only because they haven't finalized the paperwork for a variety of reasons ... because it's not a big priority for them, or because it's a long drawn out legal battle, etc. There's enough folks who fit that description, that it's not necessarily a valid assumption that he had a faithful wife back home who had a reasonable expectation of his fidelity. It's real easy for a reporter to check on line his state's bureau of vital statistics and discover that technically, he is married. Less so to actually find out what the status of that marriage really is.

ShyGuy
12-11-2018, 05:11 AM
What do you know about PE's relationship to the woman to whom he is legally married? There are a whole bunch of people who are estranged but still legally married, only because they haven't finalized the paperwork for a variety of reasons ... because it's not a big priority for them, or because it's a long drawn out legal battle, etc. There's enough folks who fit that description, that it's not necessarily a valid assumption that he had a faithful wife back home who had a reasonable expectation of his fidelity. It's real easy for a reporter to check on line his state's bureau of vital statistics and discover that technically, he is married. Less so to actually find out what the status of that marriage really is.

That’s one way to spin it. Wasn’t referring to PE or anyone in particular. Rather, the 10 men comment. Surely they weren’t all single or estranged from their wife.

Flyin1500
12-11-2018, 06:02 AM
Thatís one way to spin it. Wasnít referring to PE or anyone in particular. Rather, the 10 men comment. Surely they werenít all single or estranged from their wife.


Good question. And stop calling me Shirley.

A Squared
12-11-2018, 08:53 AM
Thatís one way to spin it. Wasnít referring to PE or anyone in particular. Rather, the 10 men comment. Surely they werenít all single or estranged from their wife. I'm no apologist for Pina, as my comments earlier in this thread indicate, but I'm not jumping on the "slept with 10 guys" rumor as true quite yet. It's an easy accusation to make and no evidence to support it (yes I see the irony) Yes, there certainly are guys who cheat on their wives (and women who cheat on their husbands). If that is contrary to how their spouses have been led to expect than I agree that it's poor behavior.

VirginEskimo
12-11-2018, 10:36 AM
I donít like where some of this thread is going. Are we really opining on whether some of our fellow pilots are ďloose womenĒ or ďadulterous husbandsĒ? If your sense of moral outrage makes you feel compelled to let others know your opinions on our fellow pilotís moral shortcomings, I suggest this is not the venue for that. Protecting and enhancing our careers is the purpose of this website and discussing how to keep yourself out of trouble at work is perfectly legit. Discussing whether someone is a slut or a cheater is not. If you really want to pursue that maybe you can make some postings on their residential community forum or get their pastor to denounce them from the pulpit. Not anything I give a ratís ass about and neither do most of our brothers and sisters on this forum.

Klsytakesit
12-11-2018, 03:03 PM
Amen brother......Who cares. Lesson for all learned. Unless you are friends with the pilot you are flying with, stay outa their business and keep them outa your business. The days of old are gone...Hanging out on layovers with strangers is just plain bad for your business. Light a candle for Paul and Betty. They sacrificed their lives and futures so we could all learn. Leave them alone....

MySaabStory
12-11-2018, 05:14 PM
Amen brother......Who cares. Lesson for all learned. Unless you are friends with the pilot you are flying with, stay outa their business and keep them outa your business. The days of old are gone...Hanging out on layovers with strangers is just plain bad for your business. Light a candle for Paul and Betty. They sacrificed their lives and futures so we could all learn. Leave them alone....

Wow. Thatís a sad way to look at life. Just donít ďact-a-foolĒ on your layovers and youíll be fine. Otherwise it will be a long, long career ahead of you.

Well, unless youíre just an antisocial peson by nature...then youíll be fine.

450knotOffice
12-11-2018, 05:42 PM
I am a social person by nature.

With my friends and family...

With that said, I'm generally a slam clicker on overnights for many reasons, one of which is the potential for something bad to happen because of some crazy nut-job who I work with. I have a vivid enough imagination to know that SOME people are crazy enough to cause BIG problems in a co-workers life. No thank you.

Not only that, but I typically like to do my own things on my own time when not on duty. Tough to do by committee.

WutFace
12-11-2018, 09:14 PM
Page after page of AS pilots patting each other on the back for avoiding each other.

This place is a freaking joke.

450knotOffice
12-12-2018, 04:05 PM
Haha! Really? Lighten up. 😉

ShyGuy
12-13-2018, 07:25 AM
Another lawsuit, this time from military pilots?

A Squared
12-13-2018, 02:24 PM
Another lawsuit, this time from military pilots?


So it would appear.



Alaska Airlines Inc. faces a new suit accusing it of failing to allow pilots who serve in the U.S. Armed Forces to accrue sick and vacation time while on military leave.
The airline allegedly discriminated against its pilots by denying them employment benefits on the basis of their obligation to serve in the military in violation of the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act.
Alaska Airlines is evaluating the complaint, a company spokeswoman told Bloomberg Law Dec. 13 via...

Packrat
12-14-2018, 04:18 AM
So it would appear.

That's a change. During Desert Storm the company would allow the C-141 guys to fly one trip a month to maintain their insurance and benefits status. I always thought AS was pretty enlightened about that. It appears things have changed.

RadialGal
12-18-2018, 05:47 PM
As a female pilot, potentially aspiring to apply at Alaska, I have to say...........I do so solemnly hope we, as newbie female FO's aren't tossed out to the "look but don't touch" pile; due to this hot %^@#$)& mess. Part of the reason I became a pilot was because of the camaraderie amongst ourselves.

Our brotherhood, even IF we were women. It exists in so VERY few fields. Guys, please. If we loose that....we are simply overpaid, over glorified, sky borne bus drivers.

We are MORE than that. We have YEARS of experience, DECADES of knowledge and a mountain of experience to bring to this new digitalized age. Let us NOT separate this by sex. I am not asking for a handout, a hand UP or ANY advantage when it comes to hiring. Just for a un tinted chance.

I just don't want to feel like the lone Martyr in a line of Suffragettes. We have to make a stand at some point. Guys, I love you all, you are my friends, pals, confidants. But you have NO idea, how hard it is to BREAK INTO a field nearly completely dominated by men.............


We don't need a handout, like in the 80's. But we might need a hand up. It's hard. Harder than you think. Have you ever been handed a coat and asked to rack it? Have you ever been asked for a pre takeoff drink? Have you EVER had ANYONE walk off your plane simply because of your sex?????????

No??????????????

Ask a female pilot. We've seen it all. Yes there are Alarmists and Gals who take advantage of this temporary female flame. But most of us are just like you. We flew ****ty MU-2's in Marginal weather to deliver not that important checks to banks that could care less. We flew triple mailer's to Eskimo Villages day after day, after day. We did the GRIND...........JUST like you did.

YET we are grouped with them, the whiny, unfair Feminists ....................WHY????

Please guys. I am a pretty cool Chick to hang out with. I won't sue you if we share a shot of Jamison after a 3 legger. I WANT that camraderie..........I wan't that Brotherhood.

It is a huge reason I became a pilot. Let's not let that fade away.

I miss you guys..............lets share the sky, despite our sex.......not. because of it.

Ad Astra per Aspara!

RadialGal

Klsytakesit
12-18-2018, 06:35 PM
Radial Gal you write well.
The camaraderie of aviation was leaving long before the me2 circus came to town. Smart phones, facebook, youtube, microbrews, fad diets, food allergies have all played a part in turning layovers in to solo events. Several generations raised with minimum social skills/edicate are players in the decline of the once grand airline layover. Too many max FAR days in a row, too many redeyes, too many zone swaps, too many min rest overnites.....And trust is gone. And not just boy-girl trust..
When Blackout Betty chose to toss a hand grenade into a crowded room the damage was done. A wave of retribution swept over us and HR suspensions/terminations/ allegations shot up 8 times the normal. Not just with pilots but flight attendants as well.
Still a decent job no question about it.

RadialGal
12-18-2018, 07:00 PM
It's just so sad......*******it!

I used to drink ****ty Buds with guys who flew leaky DC-2's and retired on 74's with United.

I gave biennials to fellas who flew the Blackbird.

It
Was
So Much MORE!!!!!!!

I weep for the past and fear for the future. We are starting to be not too different from a cube farm. A "run of the mill" job. My friends......my fellow fliers.

We are SO MUCH MORE!!!!!!

When you shove those throttles forward.....remember.

Remember

What you gave. The Sleepless night hours fueling (******* those MU-2's) Your crap, INOP stickered filled, piece of **** Mu-2's, 421's, 310's, Navi-Hoes!

You did that, you EARNED this.

Despite the tests, the turmoil,the uncertainty..........the decade worth of ****!!!

You, my friend, prevailed.

When we tilt back a cold one on a layover; I hope you won't view me as a Blackout Betty...........but simply as a fellow flier......with different plumbing. I miss you all. It's lonely out there; and I know it's a scary time for all my Male fellow fliers.

We aren't all out to get you; please don't give up on us.

Ad Astra per Aspara!

RadialGal

wrxpilot
12-18-2018, 08:22 PM
Radial Gal you write well.
The camaraderie of aviation was leaving long before the me2 circus came to town. Smart phones, facebook, youtube, microbrews, fad diets, food allergies have all played a part in turning layovers in to solo events. Several generations raised with minimum social skills/edicate are players in the decline of the once grand airline layover. Too many max FAR days in a row, too many redeyes, too many zone swaps, too many min rest overnites.....And trust is gone. And not just boy-girl trust..
When Blackout Betty chose to toss a hand grenade into a crowded room the damage was done. A wave of retribution swept over us and HR suspensions/terminations/ allegations shot up 8 times the normal. Not just with pilots but flight attendants as well.
Still a decent job no question about it.

Whatís wrong with microbrews?!

A Squared
12-18-2018, 09:21 PM
Whatís wrong with microbrews?!


Yeah, I'm going to have to have that one explained to me.

Reactivity
12-18-2018, 10:41 PM
Whatís wrong with microbrews?!

Never mind the microbrews. What the heck is "edicate"?

TransWorld
12-19-2018, 05:22 AM
RadialGal -

Excellent posts. I agree with you and am supportive. Through my many years I have worked to treat women fairly. To mentor and coach. To see them grow in their performance, just as men. My experience is the average woman in a male dominated profession performs a bit better. You know, as do I, the reasons. The greater seriousness, the extra effort. I support you.

tomgoodman
12-19-2018, 05:34 AM
Radial Gal you write well.

I agree, and have mentioned this before. That ability, coupled with Radial Galís aviation experience, could generate a fine book some day. :)

WHACKMASTER
12-19-2018, 06:19 AM
It's just so sad......*******it!

I used to drink ****ty Buds with guys who flew leaky DC-2's and retired on 74's with United.

I gave biennials to fellas who flew the Blackbird.

It
Was
So Much MORE!!!!!!!

I weep for the past and fear for the future. We are starting to be not too different from a cube farm. A "run of the mill" job. My friends......my fellow fliers.

We are SO MUCH MORE!!!!!!

When you shove those throttles forward.....remember.

Remember

What you gave. The Sleepless night hours fueling (******* those MU-2's) Your crap, INOP stickered filled, piece of **** Mu-2's, 421's, 310's, Navi-Hoes!

You did that, you EARNED this.

Despite the tests, the turmoil,the uncertainty..........the decade worth of ****!!!

You, my friend, prevailed.

When we tilt back a cold one on a layover; I hope you won't view me as a Blackout Betty...........but simply as a fellow flier......with different plumbing. I miss you all. It's lonely out there; and I know it's a scary time for all my Male fellow fliers.

We aren't all out to get you; please don't give up on us.

Ad Astra per Aspara!

RadialGal

This is my 20th year as an airline pilot and marks the halfway point in my career as I am NOT flying past 65 even if the age changes to XX. Unfortunately RadialGal, our ever more sterile working environment is a direct barometer of what’s happening in society.

Just a few months ago something happened that really had a profound effect on how I view work and the interaction between crew members (pilots and FAs in particular). Call it a wake up call.....

There was some joking around and joke telling back and forth on the hotel van to the airport. Nothing too scandalous or edgy. We ended up flying a few legs together and at the end of it one of the FAs asked to speak to me on the jetway. To paraphrase what she said, “You’re a nice guy and a great captain and I wouldn’t want to see anything happen to you. Just know that the other FAs took offense to some of what you said in the van this morning and with the Me Too movement alive and well these days, I’d be very careful if I were you”.

After my initial shock I thanked her and offered her an apology. THAT was a big wake up call to me on just how much society has changed. Unfortunately, now I just go to work and try to have an approachable but “strictly business” attitude. When American society has degraded to the point where someone can ruin your career because they took offense to something trivial (or would not have even raised an eyebrow ten years ago) then expect nothing less than an ever increasing percentage of “slam-clicking”, anti-social, and introverted coworkers (especially males who are the ones being targeted).

The camaraderie truly is something special amongst pilots (professional or even recreational), but if you’re getting into the professional pilot world for that then you’ll become increasingly disappointed as the lawyers, special interest groups, think tanks, Hollywood stars, talk show hosts, etc. further drive sterilization of human interaction in our society because you just don’t know who will take offense to your words or actions. Very, very sad....

Packrat
12-19-2018, 06:41 AM
Right on, RG.

We once had a Captain who was a competitive aerobatic pilot. She was probably a better aviatrix than most of the pilots at the airline. Yet, even she had a jackhole passenger demand to get off because the Captain was a female.

What a world.

Singlecoil
12-19-2018, 07:14 AM
Great posts, Radialgal.
I for one will always offer to have dinner/beers with a female first officer. My wife is a pilot who quit to stay home with the kids. Men donít realize how tough/awkward it can be for a woman to go to a bar or restaurant alone, especially in a hotel. At least offering to accompany them doesnít mean you are setting yourself up for a career-ending accusation, it means you are a decent human being who is trying to make a co-workerís day a little easier.

VirginEskimo
12-19-2018, 07:37 AM
ďDid I ever get mistaken for a flight attendant?Ē About once per trip on average especially back in 2008-2009 when we wore the black ďJohnny CashĒ uniforms. Once a guy asked me for a soda and I said heíd have to ask the flight attendant. He said ďOh sorry, I didnít realize you were a gate agent!Ē

RG, by your experiences and the trauma it has caused you I think you should start your own movement. You can call it. #Mu-2!

Flyin1500
12-19-2018, 11:35 AM
#Mu-2!

I see what you did there. (golf clap)

Klsytakesit
12-19-2018, 06:50 PM
Whatís wrong with microbrews?!

Super high alcohol content....nothing wrong with them, just get ya hammered in a hurry....Did not notice the bizarre spell-check rendition of etiquette....

Klsytakesit
12-19-2018, 07:00 PM
Radial gal,
I have no doubt that we would likely hit a watering hole or two. Most of the under 40 aviators we hire now have nothing close to your background. They have 152/172 time maybe some 3-way Seneca time and then a couple grand of turbo prop/RJ right seat time and they consider themselves to be cut of the same cloth as you...And they are upset that it took them ďso longĒ....They have never heard of an MU-2 or a 402 or a navi hoe....Not really much to talk about anyway...You will still find camaraderie because of who you are and it wont matter how you are plumbed

Reactivity
12-20-2018, 12:10 AM
Super high alcohol content....nothing wrong with them, just get ya hammered in a hurry....Did not notice the bizarre spell-check rendition of etiquette....

Yeah, the microbrews will do that to ya.

rickair7777
12-20-2018, 07:24 AM
Super high alcohol content....nothing wrong with them, just get ya hammered in a hurry....Did not notice the bizarre spell-check rendition of etiquette....

Session IPAs.

silver fleet
12-20-2018, 07:52 AM
ďYouíre a nice guy and a great captain and I wouldnít want to see anything happen to you. Just know that the other FAs took offense to some of what you said in the van this morning and with the Me Too movement alive and well these days, Iíd be very careful if I were youĒ.

The thought I derived when I was in the USAF- "Just because they're offended, does'nt mean they're right"' sigh. We live in an HR wet-dream.

Excargodog
12-20-2018, 07:59 AM
The thought I derived when I was in the USAF- "Just because they're offended, does'nt mean they're right"' sigh. We live in an HR wet-dream.

Yeah, but the one I learned in the USAF WAS "Perception is reality when it comes to morale."

Sexual harassment lawsuits too unfortunately in the era of #metoo.

dawgdriver
12-20-2018, 08:14 AM
The thought I derived when I was in the USAF- "Just because they're offended, does'nt mean they're right"' sigh. We live in an HR wet-dream.

The inmates are running the asylum. The dimmest have been granted the ability to destroy careers at will and have been instructed by Hollyweird (#MeToo), politicians ("men need to just step up and shut up!"), media and news outlets, and their favorite celebrities to draw the weapon at the first indication of 'questionable dialogue'. Amazing that harassment, originally designed to address sexual advances intended to threaten the victim's career, to simple comments.

RadialGal
12-20-2018, 08:22 AM
Ha!

Love it!

I THINK I understand what this # or "hashtag" BS means. Even with my vague-ish understanding...........

I'd love to start an #MU-2 movement! Who is with me? We can swap stories of Garretts, Spoilers, Icing, Tuna Cans and this rare and illusive thing we used to call "cancelled checks."

Oh and Guys....I agree 100 percent with your comments. This "me too" thing has gone too far.

It's for if your Chief Pilot or Instructor, while at the paper tiger for a "private session," starts some heavy petting and tells you the ride will go one Hell of a lot smoother if you just have some fun. Not for if you suddenly feel offended by the term "oral exam," AFTER you fear you may not have done so well on yours.

Ad Astra!

RadialGal

EskimoJoe
12-20-2018, 09:22 AM
The thought I derived when I was in the USAF- "Just because they're offended, does'nt mean they're right"' sigh. We live in an HR wet-dream.


Yes. It's so unfortunate that you're not free to

sexually disparage your colleagues in the van. You're such a victim. SAD!!

silver fleet
12-20-2018, 11:24 AM
Yes. It's so unfortunate that you're not free to

sexually disparage your colleagues in the van. You're such a victim. SAD!!

Sexual innuendo isnt always what its about- get your mind out of the gutter. The weak are offended by anything they dont understand or agree with in this current model.

ItnStln
12-20-2018, 01:27 PM
As a female pilot, potentially aspiring to apply at Alaska, I have to say...........I do so solemnly hope we, as newbie female FO's aren't tossed out to the "look but don't touch" pile; due to this hot %^@#$)& mess. Part of the reason I became a pilot was because of the camaraderie amongst ourselves.

Our brotherhood, even IF we were women. It exists in so VERY few fields. Guys, please. If we loose that....we are simply overpaid, over glorified, sky borne bus drivers.

We are MORE than that. We have YEARS of experience, DECADES of knowledge and a mountain of experience to bring to this new digitalized age. Let us NOT separate this by sex. I am not asking for a handout, a hand UP or ANY advantage when it comes to hiring. Just for a un tinted chance.

I just don't want to feel like the lone Martyr in a line of Suffragettes. We have to make a stand at some point. Guys, I love you all, you are my friends, pals, confidants. But you have NO idea, how hard it is to BREAK INTO a field nearly completely dominated by men.............


We don't need a handout, like in the 80's. But we might need a hand up. It's hard. Harder than you think. Have you ever been handed a coat and asked to rack it? Have you ever been asked for a pre takeoff drink? Have you EVER had ANYONE walk off your plane simply because of your sex?????????

No??????????????

Ask a female pilot. We've seen it all. Yes there are Alarmists and Gals who take advantage of this temporary female flame. But most of us are just like you. We flew ****ty MU-2's in Marginal weather to deliver not that important checks to banks that could care less. We flew triple mailer's to Eskimo Villages day after day, after day. We did the GRIND...........JUST like you did.

YET we are grouped with them, the whiny, unfair Feminists ....................WHY????

Please guys. I am a pretty cool Chick to hang out with. I won't sue you if we share a shot of Jamison after a 3 legger. I WANT that camraderie..........I wan't that Brotherhood.

It is a huge reason I became a pilot. Let's not let that fade away.

I miss you guys..............lets share the sky, despite our sex.......not. because of it.

Ad Astra per Aspara!

RadialGal

Nicely said!

GogglesPisano
12-20-2018, 02:48 PM
Yes. It's so unfortunate that you're not free to

sexually disparage your colleagues in the van. SAD!!


You really think it's that simple? Guys are getting in hot water today for complimenting women.

In 50 years there will be no courting, dating or seduction. Everything will have to be in writing (probably through an app.)

tomgoodman
12-20-2018, 09:30 PM
Moderator input:

Some recent posts have used foul language while advocating respect for women, which is a rather ironic way to violate the TOS. :confused:

EskimoJoe
12-20-2018, 10:36 PM
Moderator input:

Some recent posts have used foul language while advocating respect for women, which is a rather ironic way to violate the TOS. :confused:
OK. maybe you should look up the definition of Irony. Just saying...

tomgoodman
12-21-2018, 05:31 AM
OK. maybe you should look up the definition of Irony. Just saying...

The usage was correct:

ďSituational irony involves a striking reversal of what is expected or intended: a person sidesteps a pothole to avoid injury and in doing so steps into another pothole and injures themselves.Ē
óMerriam Webster

Another bad post risks stepping into a ban-hole. Given the title of this thread, that would be very ironic.

symbian simian
12-21-2018, 09:05 AM
I think the biggest problem is all the people getting offended on behalf of other people.

John Carr
12-21-2018, 03:48 PM
You really think it's that simple? Guys are getting in hot water today for complimenting women.

In 50 years there will be no courting, dating or seduction. Everything will have to be in writing (probably through an app.)

And the fairer sex will STILL complain that there are NO true old fashioned gentlemen.

RadialGal
12-21-2018, 04:14 PM
And the fairer sex will STILL complain that there are NO true old fashioned gentlemen.

I happened to have Married the Most Gentlemanly Gentleman whomever Gentlemaned AND he's a even a pilot!

Ad Astra

RadialGal

TransWorld
12-21-2018, 04:56 PM
I happened to have Married the Most Gentlemanly Gentleman whomever Gentlemaned AND he's a even a pilot!

Ad Astra

RadialGal

I am happy for you. Sincerely.

John Carr
12-21-2018, 10:43 PM
I happened to have Married the Most Gentlemanly Gentleman whomever Gentlemaned AND he's a even a pilot!

Ad Astra

RadialGal

Congrats.

But the point may have been missed on what I, and others, are getting at in a thread such as this.

dawgdriver
12-22-2018, 07:15 AM
Sexual innuendo isnt always what its about- get your mind out of the gutter. The weak are offended by anything they dont understand or agree with in this current model.

Agree. Increasingly typical 'launch to judgement'. Sadly, just another glaring example of the derangement and hysteria that has permeated the workplace.

Better to keep thoughts and opinions to one's self than risk the repercussions. Why bother when, as depicted above, even the lightest of humor or bland conversation can be construed as offensive. If a 35 year old vague and uncorroborated accusation can derail a Supreme Court Justice confirmation and destroy the reputation of a good man, there's no telling what can happen.

As our elected leaders have demanded, "...Men in this country need to just shut up".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htGmvHKcCNY

GogglesPisano
12-22-2018, 08:08 AM
Intent is no longer relevant. Only perception.

Packrat
12-23-2018, 08:35 AM
Intent is no longer relevant. Only perception.

Perception is reality.

GogglesPisano
12-23-2018, 08:49 AM
Perception is reality.

Not necessarily.

GogglesPisano
12-23-2018, 09:50 AM
The world is full of mixed signals. Wars have started because of someone is certain that their "perception is reality."

rickair7777
12-23-2018, 11:18 AM
The world is full of mixed signals. Wars have started because of someone is certain that their "perception is reality."

That's why you have to understand that in many cases perception is the reality.

Being absolutely correct about reality will not save you from the repercussions of other people's perception.

tomgoodman
12-23-2018, 11:55 AM
Perception is reality.

ďAfter we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeleyís ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which [Dr] Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it: ďI REFUTE IT THUS.Ē

óJames Boswell, 1791

GogglesPisano
12-23-2018, 06:18 PM
That's why you have to understand that in many cases perception is the reality.

Being absolutely correct about reality will not save you from the repercussions of other people's perception.

Perception can not replace objective reality. If someone goes into a sensory deprivation chamber and perceives that the universe no longer exists, that does not mean the universe no longer exists.

The point I’m making is that how someone else perceives your words should not cost you your job in objective reality — With witnesses. Motive and intent should count for something. But the way things are going on this will no longer be the case.

SafeSpaceForce
12-24-2018, 02:18 PM
THIS

http://youtu.be/CJB9GP5gyAw

RadialGal
04-01-2019, 03:08 PM
Any updates?