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Andy
11-05-2018, 05:17 PM
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/icelandair-group-to-take-over-budget-rival-wow-air-453315/?fbclid=IwAR3uijtl5h1wud_GgDW0bIyCE4eQriqfbENPD4Wa okE8W43zul9aBptD1eA

I read that the deal valued WoW at ~$18 million.

This is two financially troubled airlines getting together - this should go well. :rolleyes:


NEDude
11-06-2018, 01:00 AM
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/icelandair-group-to-take-over-budget-rival-wow-air-453315/?fbclid=IwAR3uijtl5h1wud_GgDW0bIyCE4eQriqfbENPD4Wa okE8W43zul9aBptD1eA

I read that the deal valued WoW at ~$18 million.

This is two financially troubled airlines getting together - this should go well. :rolleyes:

WOWAir is not gone. It was acquired by IcelandAir and will continue to operate separately. At least that is the plan for now.

Andy
11-06-2018, 05:19 AM
WOWAir is not gone. It was acquired by IcelandAir and will continue to operate separately. At least that is the plan for now.

LOL! The plan. Just like the money WoW recently raised would keep them solvent for another 18 months so they could do an IPO, right?


FLowpayFO
11-12-2018, 05:39 AM
Icelandair is not in any sort of financial trouble, quite the opposite.

sailingfun
11-12-2018, 08:14 AM
Icelandair is not in any sort of financial trouble, quite the opposite.

WOW was in deep trouble. I suspect Iceland air will shut them down over time or merge the operations. The business model of selling tickets below your cost to produce the seat strangely was not profitable.

FLowpayFO
11-12-2018, 03:20 PM
WOW was in deep trouble. I suspect Iceland air will shut them down over time or merge the operations. The business model of selling tickets below your cost to produce the seat strangely was not profitable.

Yes you are correct, WOW was in a desperate position sadly. I do agree that they will eventually merge the two operations but thatís up for debate. Icelandair purchased WOW only utilizing stock shares giving the owner of WOW 5.4% of Icelandair Groups shares. Plus Icelandair has over 5 years worth of cash reserves. How this is defined as Icelandair is in financial trouble is beyond me 🤷🏼*♂️

dera
11-13-2018, 02:57 AM
WOW was in deep trouble. I suspect Iceland air will shut them down over time or merge the operations. The business model of selling tickets below your cost to produce the seat strangely was not profitable.

They tried to make it up in volume :D

GuardPolice
11-13-2018, 04:10 AM
They tried to make it up in volume :D

The Walmart model isn't possible in all industries.

CanWeGetTheLeft
11-13-2018, 02:56 PM
They tried to make it up in volume :D

Excellent Catch22 reference

Big E 757
11-29-2018, 06:06 AM
They tried to make it up in volume :D

There was an SNL skit years ago. It was an advertisement for a change bank. All they did was make change. They didnít take a cut or charge anything...someone off camera asked how they make money....volume, they said. It was funny. If I knew how to attach YouTube clips, Iíd search and see if I could find it.

UAL T38 Phlyer
11-29-2018, 07:47 AM
There was an SNL skit years ago. It was an advertisement for a change bank. All they did was make change. They didnít take a cut or charge anything...someone off camera asked how they make money....volume, they said. It was funny. If I knew how to attach YouTube clips, Iíd search and see if I could find it.

I found it, but itís only available for pay...SNL has it locked out of youtube. Well, one guy had filmed it with his phone and posted..not very good quality.

THR IDLE
11-29-2018, 09:02 AM
The deal is apparently off.

http://https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/11/29/no-deal-icelandair-plan-acquire-rival-wow-off/2147594002/

zondaracer
11-29-2018, 09:08 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/29/icelandair-scraps-acquisition-of-struggling-icelandic-airline-wow-air.html


Source: WOW Airlines
Icelandair Group on Thursday scrapped a plan to acquire its Icelandic rival WOW Air, calling into question the next steps for the struggling budget carrier.

Icelandair said the conditions for the share purchase were "unlikely" to be filled by the company's shareholder meeting, slated for Friday.

"This conclusion is certainly disappointing," Bogi Nils Bogason, Icelandair Group's interim president and CEO, said in a statement. "We want to thank WOW Air's management for a good cooperation in the project during recent weeks. All our best wishes go out to the owners and staff of the WOW Air."

zondaracer
11-29-2018, 01:42 PM
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/indigo-partners-and-wow-air-reach-preliminary-agreement-300757948.html

Now, Indigo Partners is going to buy Wow.

intrepidcv11
11-29-2018, 03:15 PM
Wow Air. Always thought that was a killer name by the marketing folks. Ted was pretty cool, but WOW. That says it all...

sailingfun
11-30-2018, 05:32 PM
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wow-air-returns-four-aircraft-in-face-of-cash-crunch-453954/

Cosa Nostra
11-30-2018, 06:14 PM
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wow-air-returns-four-aircraft-in-face-of-cash-crunch-453954/


Had a buddy about to leave his current airline in Europe to go there on the a330. What a disaster.

Andy
12-06-2018, 03:50 PM
Plus Icelandair has over 5 years worth of cash reserves. How this is defined as Icelandair is in financial trouble is beyond me 🤷🏼*♂️

Icelandair had USD $175MM cash on hand at the end of last quarter. Their operating expenses for last quarter were USD $400MM. Their liabilities have grown by USD $195MM in 2018.

Please cite your reference for 5 years' worth of cash reserves; I need a good laugh.

Andy
12-20-2018, 08:50 AM
Icelandair had USD $175MM cash on hand at the end of last quarter. Their operating expenses for last quarter were USD $400MM. Their liabilities have grown by USD $195MM in 2018.

Please cite your reference for 5 years' worth of cash reserves; I need a good laugh.

I see FlowPayFO's logged on quite a bit but not responded to my post. I'd like to know where he came up with this outlandish idea that Icelandair had 5 years' cash reserves, as that's clearly not the case.

Cosa Nostra
12-20-2018, 03:25 PM
I see FlowPayFO's logged on quite a bit but not responded to my post. I'd like to know where he came up with this outlandish idea that Icelandair had 5 years' cash reserves, as that's clearly not the case.


Wishful thinking. ;)

Contrail06
12-23-2018, 12:14 PM
The international long haul ULCC business plane is clearly flawed. The idea you can charge a couple hundred bucks to fly in a brand new WB with oil that can fluctuate by 50% a barrel from the time you sell the ticket to the time you have to pay the fuel truck just doesnít work. Even with their labor tricks and tax evasion tactics.

Go ahead, call me wrong. Iíll just sit on my perch and continue to watch them fold one by one. NAI next??

Andy
12-24-2018, 09:43 AM
Go ahead, call me wrong. Iíll just sit on my perch and continue to watch them fold one by one. NAI next??

I've always viewed WoW and Norwegian as being in a horserace to close their doors. I don't expect either airline to be operating by May 2019.

WoW has shed more capacity than Norwegian, so right now I'm thinking Norwegian will close its doors first, probably sometime in January.

zondaracer
12-25-2018, 05:01 AM
Donít we have one APC member who flies for WOW?

FollowMe
12-25-2018, 06:36 AM
I see FlowPayFO's logged on quite a bit but not responded to my post. I'd like to know where he came up with this outlandish idea that Icelandair had 5 years' cash reserves, as that's clearly not the case.

https://thefireescapeartist.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/someone-is-wrong-on-internet.png?w=273&h=300

NEDude
12-27-2018, 01:10 PM
Donít we have one APC member who flies for WOW?

That was me. I had a two year contract that ended a few months ago. I did not sign an extension, and have been working full time as an A320 TRI for an ATO.

ShyGuy
12-27-2018, 10:11 PM
Whatís an ATO?

zondaracer
12-27-2018, 10:36 PM
Whatís an ATO?

Approved Training Organisation

badflaps
12-28-2018, 02:01 PM
That was me. I had a two year contract that ended a few months ago. I did not sign an extension, and have been working full time as an A320 TRI for an ATO.

Seems like an ideal life if you can stay ahead of the plow.

thrust
12-29-2018, 09:38 PM
Approved Training Organisation

Whatís an Approved Training Organisation?

captjns
12-29-2018, 10:44 PM
Whatís an Approved Training Organisation?

EASA TRTO likened to a 142 school.

zondaracer
12-30-2018, 04:53 AM
Under EASA, every flight school and training center has to have an operating certificate and they are known as ATOs.

Sniper66
01-06-2019, 06:01 PM
That was me. I had a two year contract that ended a few months ago. I did not sign an extension, and have been working full time as an A320 TRI for an ATO.




Big money I hope

Or better than virgin America/ Alaska

NEDude
01-06-2019, 10:13 PM
Big money I hope

Or better than virgin America/ Alaska

No, but still good money. I also get to live in a country and city where I want to live and have an outstanding quality of life. I am quite content. I could not live where I am now and work in the States. It would take a hell of a lot more money than any airline is offering to get me to think about moving back to the U.S.

Andy
01-07-2019, 06:01 AM
No, but still good money. I also get to live in a country and city where I want to live and have an outstanding quality of life. I am quite content. I could not live where I am now and work in the States. It would take a hell of a lot more money than any airline is offering to get me to think about moving back to the U.S.

And yet, there are a bunch of europilots on the Norwegian thread crying about low wages in euroland. I suppose settling for less of everything is one of the joys of eurosocialism. And eurosocialism is only a couple of shades different than classic communism.

atpcliff
01-07-2019, 06:56 AM
And yet, there are a bunch of europilots on the Norwegian thread crying about low wages in euroland. I suppose settling for less of everything is one of the joys of eurosocialism. And eurosocialism is only a couple of shades different than classic communism.

Communism, as well as Capitalism, has never existed on Our Earth. Communist ideology states that there will be NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any "Communist" countries that don't have a government? Capitalism requires a "Free Market", unencumbered by anything. To have a Free Market, once again, you need NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any location on Our Earth that has no government?

Socialism is an idea that can actually work. The latest survey of resident happiness: ALL of the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on Our Earth. The US has dropped a LOT in the happiness ranking of its residents...

Also, there is a reasonable chance that the above overseas pilot does not live in Europe.

NEDude
01-07-2019, 07:33 AM
Communism, as well as Capitalism, has never existed on Our Earth. Communist ideology states that there will be NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any "Communist" countries that don't have a government? Capitalism requires a "Free Market", unencumbered by anything. To have a Free Market, once again, you need NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any location on Our Earth that has no government?

Socialism is an idea that can actually work. The latest survey of resident happiness: ALL of the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on Our Earth. The US has dropped a LOT in the happiness ranking of its residents...

Also, there is a reasonable chance that the above overseas pilot does not live in Europe.

I live in Scandinavia.

NEDude
01-07-2019, 07:52 AM
And yet, there are a bunch of europilots on the Norwegian thread crying about low wages in euroland. I suppose settling for less of everything is one of the joys of eurosocialism. And eurosocialism is only a couple of shades different than classic communism.

Do you know what socialism is? How is so-called "eurosocialism" related?

Andy
01-07-2019, 08:01 AM
Communism, as well as Capitalism, has never existed on Our Earth. Communist ideology states that there will be NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any "Communist" countries that don't have a government? Capitalism requires a "Free Market", unencumbered by anything. To have a Free Market, once again, you need NO GOVERNMENT. Do you know any location on Our Earth that has no government?

Socialism is an idea that can actually work. The latest survey of resident happiness: ALL of the Scandinavian countries are the happiest on Our Earth. The US has dropped a LOT in the happiness ranking of its residents...

Also, there is a reasonable chance that the above overseas pilot does not live in Europe.

Great. We've now moved to making this an academic discussion on types of government which have no basis in the real world. Please Cliff, stay in the real world. With real world examples. I don't care about theoretical academic crap that has no basis in the real world.

Are you citing the UN's World Happiness Report???? As far as happiness indices, I like how Finland is ranked #1 in happiness, yet has a higher suicide rate than the lowly US. Please explain that dichotomy.

Depending on which metrics one chooses for 'happiness', the results can be radically different. Garbage in, garbage out. Look at the weighting of immigrants' happiness and dystopia. That was a typical crap 'study' that means next to nothing. Another waste of money.

Just because the UN publishes a garbage report doesn't mean that socialism works. I don't like the idea of residents being able to fritter away their lives in nonproductive pursuits, subsidized by those that work while others work their butts off and are poorly compensated. Yes, a nirvana for the indolent. Socialism is a living hell for highly productive residents. That works until it doesn't, just as communism worked in the Soviet Union until the highly productive residents started to engage in slothful behavior.

Andy
01-07-2019, 08:17 AM
Do you know what socialism is? How is so-called "eurosocialism" related?

No, I'm a freaking moron who never took a single postsecondary class on government, politics, or political theory. What do you think?

Scandanavia is composed of more than one country. You live in Sweden, right? Awesome social safety net. Unsustainable as it approaches a tipping point. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-15/look-at-what-s-going-to-happen-to-sweden-s-fabled-welfare-state

This is all a variation of Aesop's 'The Ant and the Grasshopper' except that Scandanavia is being overrun by grasshoppers.

NEDude
01-07-2019, 11:14 AM
No, I'm a freaking moron who never took a single postsecondary class on government, politics, or political theory. What do you think?

Scandanavia is composed of more than one country. You live in Sweden, right? Awesome social safety net. Unsustainable as it approaches a tipping point. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-15/look-at-what-s-going-to-happen-to-sweden-s-fabled-welfare-state

This is all a variation of Aesop's 'The Ant and the Grasshopper' except that Scandanavia is being overrun by grasshoppers.

I think you need to ask for your money back if you are under the impression that the Scandinavian countries are Socialist.

Do you seriously want to compare the economic sustainability of the Scandinavian model with U.S. model?

atpcliff
01-07-2019, 11:35 AM
Great. We've now moved to making this an academic discussion on types of government which have no basis in the real world. Please Cliff, stay in the real world. With real world examples. I don't care about theoretical academic crap that has no basis in the real world.

Tell me the names of two countries on Our Earth that do not have governments. Those two could be Capitalist, or Communist. As far as I know, there are zero countries that do not have a government.

Russia and North Korea are dictatorships. The former USSR and China are oligarchies. None of those four are anything close to resembling Communism, or Capitalism.

I am open to hearing any real world examples of Communism or Capitalism...

BMEP100
01-07-2019, 05:50 PM
The financial failure of WOW is not altogether unexpected. Iceland
is the orignator of the (shoestring) LCC international model, years before Freddy Laker.

I lived for a short time in Iceland in the Ď70s and saw Loftleider and Iceland Air operations up close. They too had to merge to survive. Was friends with the DO.

Loftleider, IcelandAir did not join IATA, so by touching Iceland on flights between US and Europe, they could avoid having to charge regulated minimum fares. They were the original backpackers airline. The cabin seating was max certicated like sardines with no service. I think they put something like 175 in a B-720.

I can say the crews, front and back were always great partiers.

dera
01-07-2019, 08:36 PM
Are you citing the UN's World Happiness Report???? As far as happiness indices, I like how Finland is ranked #1 in happiness, yet has a higher suicide rate than the lowly US. Please explain that dichotomy.



You acting like an expert while saying Finland is in Scandinavia is pretty damn hilarious to me.

badflaps
01-07-2019, 09:47 PM
You acting like an expert while saying Finland is in Scandinavia is pretty damn hilarious to me.
I took the ferry to Turku once, didn't understand a thing they said.:D

FollowMe
01-08-2019, 03:49 AM
Tell me the names of two countries on Our Earth that do not have governments. Those two could be Capitalist, or Communist. As far as I know, there are zero countries that do not have a government.

Russia and North Korea are dictatorships. The former USSR and China are oligarchies. None of those four are anything close to resembling Communism, or Capitalism.

I am open to hearing any real world examples of Communism or Capitalism...

You should be open to further study on what it is you are attempting to discuss. Communism and Capitalism are two (of many) competing theories on the distribution of economic power throughout a certain market. There are variations on each which either advocate or do not advocate the state, but given itís pretty hard to enforce any certain distribution of economic power without a monopoly on the initiation of force, they are wholly dependent on the state for their very survival.

Andy
01-11-2019, 08:50 AM
You acting like an expert while saying Finland is in Scandinavia is pretty damn hilarious to me.

You obviously didn't bother opening the link. It ranked Finland #1 on their happiness index. Rather ironic considering their (Finns') suicide rate and reputation for being unhappy.

As far as whether or not Finland is considered part of Scandinavia, I don't care. Here's some websites you can correct: https://www.heartmybackpack.com/finland/worst-scandinavian-country/
https://wizzwoo.com/download.php?q=history-of-scandinavia-norway-sweden-denmark-finland-and-iceland
https://www.thebrokebackpacker.com/backpacking-scandinavia-travel-guide/#profile
https://www.scandinavianrail.com/

That's through page 3 of google; there are plenty more. Not many people care whether Finland is part of Scandinavia or just Scandinavia adjacent.

I'm glad that I amused you.

dera
01-11-2019, 01:33 PM
You obviously didn't bother opening the link. It ranked Finland #1 on their happiness index. Rather ironic considering their (Finns') suicide rate and reputation for being unhappy.

As far as whether or not Finland is considered part of Scandinavia, I don't care. Here's some websites you can correct: https://www.heartmybackpack.com/finland/worst-scandinavian-country/
https://wizzwoo.com/download.php?q=history-of-scandinavia-norway-sweden-denmark-finland-and-iceland
https://www.thebrokebackpacker.com/backpacking-scandinavia-travel-guide/#profile
https://www.scandinavianrail.com/

That's through page 3 of google; there are plenty more. Not many people care whether Finland is part of Scandinavia or just Scandinavia adjacent.

I'm glad that I amused you.

Trust me, I know more about Finland and Finns than you do. And no, it's not in Scandinavia. Some people think it is, but it isn't.

NEDude
01-11-2019, 10:32 PM
Trust me, I know more about Finland and Finns than you do. And no, it's not in Scandinavia. Some people think it is, but it isn't.

You are correct, Finland is not Scandinavian. Nordic, yes, but not Scandinavian (there is a difference). The Finnish language is also very different than the Scandinavian languages. The Scandinavian languages are Germanic in origin, whereas Finnish is part of the Uralic family.

Floobs
01-13-2019, 10:25 PM
The average American pays more in taxes or close to it than what Europeans pay. But they get so much more.

The reason is we waste money on a military we don't need.

dera
01-14-2019, 05:22 AM
The average American pays more in taxes or close to it than what Europeans pay. But they get so much more.

The reason is we waste money on a military we don't need.

No they don't. For some countries it's not even close.
US is below OECD average.
https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/

Flyhayes
01-14-2019, 10:43 AM
I don't like the idea of residents being able to fritter away their lives in nonproductive pursuits...

This is where Americans and Scandinavians vastly differ.
If you ask most Americans what they do, they will respond with what they do for a living. Ask a Scandinavian, and they will tell you what they are passionate about. US culture is tied to work and money. This is not the norm everywhere in the world. I think people are considered more happy in the Nordic countries since they generally have more opportunity to pursue the things that make them happy. Take for example Universities just for pensioners, what would seem like a novel idea here in the states isn't over there. Sure it might not have a practical application for someone who has aged out of the working populace, but it still carries with it significant benefits for the people.

Also we're talking about Social Democracies, not Socialist countries. Not understanding the distinction between the two often leads down an unnecessary rabbit hole.

Floobs
01-14-2019, 11:46 PM
No they don't. For some countries it's not even close.
US is below OECD average.
https://taxfoundation.org/comparison-tax-burden-labor-oecd-2016/

Does that ignore state taxes and sales taxes?

NEDude
01-15-2019, 12:40 AM
Does that ignore state taxes and sales taxes?

I can only speak to the specifics of my situation. Before I moved to Scandinavia, I compared my wife's tax rate, and what she got from her taxes, and compared that with my tax rate and out of pocket costs for my family. This was nine years ago that I did the cost comparison, so things may be different now. My outlays included federal, state and local taxes, health insurance premiums, doctor visit co-pays (I have a child who had to see a doctor every two months), my student loan payments, and a small contribution to my kids college funds. My wife's outlays included the national and kommune taxes and nothing more as health insurance, doctor visits, her university education and her kids future education were all covered under the taxes. In the end my wife was paying a smaller percentage of her income in taxes than I was with lower taxes, along with health insurance, doctor co-pays, student loans, and my kids college funds. Plus, as she did not have to take out student loans, she was not saddled with that debt when it came to financing larger purchases, she had much greater overall purchasing power.

I do make a little bit less money than I did in the States, but overall I feel like I have a much higher quality of life now even though I live in a much more expensive city. But everyone's mileage is different, others may feel differently. (I feel like I need to highlight that because someone inevitably will come on and try and argue that I am wrong about my feeling like I have a higher quality of life. What works better for me may not work better for others. I enjoy knowing that my kids can get a good university or trade school education regardless of our family finances. I like knowing my family can walk down the street to the doctor's office knowing it will not cost us anything. I like knowing a medical emergency will not bankrupt my family. I enjoy being guaranteed six weeks of annual vacation and having 120 days of paid sick leave available every year.)

sailingfun
01-15-2019, 05:44 AM
You overlook the 25% VAT in Sweden yet account for everything down to local taxes in the US. That’s a huge swing. There are also numerous options for low or no cost college education in the US. In fact the difference in debt at graduation between Sweden and the US is small but the US degree produces a higher income.
https://qz.com/85017/college-in-sweden-is-free-but-students-still-have-a-ton-of-debt-how-can-that-be/

NEDude
01-15-2019, 05:57 AM
You overlook the 25% VAT in Sweden. There are also numerous options for low or no cost college education in the US.

You are partially correct (although I live in Denmark, not Sweden, but it is 25% here too). VAT is included in the prices you see at the store, so it is easy to overlook. If an item is shown as 100 DKK, that is the price you pay when you check out. You don't pay 100 DKK, plus another 25%. So in that respect, you are correct that I did not include that. But when doing the calculations of what I had in the States (New York), versus what my wife had in Denmark, I did not include the State sales tax I paid on store bought items. What I figured was our income taxes, medical insurance/co-pays, and educational expenses. After subtracting those things, what did each of us have left over to spend on day to day goods and services? Based on that, my wife had a higher percentage of her income to spend on day to day goods and services.

I see you edited your post a little while I was posting mine. I cannot speak to the Swedish education system, or the debt incurred there. But in Denmark students get a monthly stipend, called Statens UddannelsesstÝtte (SU), which is around $900-$1000 USD per month. SU significantly reduces the need for loans. If a student lives on their own, collects SU, works a part-time job, and lives in the student dormitories, they can graduate with zero debt. Both my wife and brother-in-law (he got a master's degree) completed their education with no debt. My oldest is currently studying at the Technical University of Denmark (DTU) while living at home, and has no student loans. His SU covers his monthly transportation, his books and supplies, and some spending money. There is an option to take out loans against SU, but the biggest problem is EU students taking out SU loans and then defaulting on them when they go home.

dera
01-15-2019, 10:44 AM
Does that ignore state taxes and sales taxes?

Sales taxes would skew the statistics even more, given that "sales tax" in many European countries is 20-25%.

NEDude
01-15-2019, 12:14 PM
Sales taxes would skew the statistics even more, given that "sales tax" in many European countries is 20-25%.

"Sales Tax" in Europe is the VAT we have been talking about.

727C47
01-15-2019, 03:11 PM
A good friend of mine lives in Copenhagen ( Irish/ US dual citizenship) , with his Danish wife, he is very happy for many of the reasons you have posted here. God bless, and Godspeed you.

dera
01-15-2019, 05:44 PM
"Sales Tax" in Europe is the VAT we have been talking about.

I know. That's why I put the "" in there.



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