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View Full Version : Returning advise


Mx241
11-07-2018, 07:25 PM
Iím 49 with 970 TT mostly built as CFI. Iíve been in a non aviation career for a while. I live in Greenville SC 1:20 drive to CAE so AW is appealing. According to AWís pilot calculator I need 484 TT and 10 hrs night to meet employment requirements. Iím willing to buy a Cessna 150 and build the time in 3 months. Iíd rather get it over with rather than drag out 30-40 hrs a month CFI-ing. Will AW frown on this approach? I have a bachelors in professional aviation if that helps. I donít want to waste time at my age. Any other advise for someone in my situation would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


tonsterboy5
11-07-2018, 07:33 PM
Don't think they care that much, It might look bad if you build to much more than that though

squib
11-07-2018, 09:47 PM
Don't think they care that much, It might look bad if you build to much more than that though


Too much time looks bad? They hire nearly anyone that applies and keeps them if they can pass training. End of story.


pilotyip
11-08-2018, 03:30 AM
Don't think they care that much, It might look bad if you build to much more than that though
They do not care, as long as you meet FAA mins, it could be a hot air balloon.

Flaps8posrate
11-08-2018, 04:51 AM
Do it! If you meet minimums youíve got an opportunity to succeed. File and fly IFR for each and every flight. Youíll be better for it!

tonsterboy5
11-08-2018, 06:16 AM
Not that more looks bad, 500 is a lot to pay for when there are tons of jobs available at 1000 hours. If you can do it fast on your on though it makes more since then working a slow job for 6-8 months. Just be prepared to have lots of down time with a broken plane

Cessnaflyer1213
11-08-2018, 07:25 AM
I would also encourage you to find a higher end multi engine simulator and put some time in it. I believe you can use as much as 25 hours of sim time towards your ATP. I am your age and recently changed careers into flying for AW. The sim time helped me transition better from the single engine piston to 250 knot plus operations. Also, look at Restricted ATP requirements. You might be closer than you think!

Mx241
11-08-2018, 10:32 AM
I would also encourage you to find a higher end multi engine simulator and put some time in it. I believe you can use as much as 25 hours of sim time towards your ATP. I am your age and recently changed careers into flying for AW. The sim time helped me transition better from the single engine piston to 250 knot plus operations. Also, look at Restricted ATP requirements. You might be closer than you think!

Thanks for the sim advise. Iím actually concerned about being ďbehindĒ coming out of a C-150. Iíll start looking for a sim. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

diverdriver2
11-08-2018, 01:04 PM
Thanks for the sim advise. Iím actually concerned about being ďbehindĒ coming out of a C-150. Iíll start looking for a sim. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Might suggest getting a part 135 job first. Gain some experience and fly some approaches then apply to Air Wisconsin.

BFMthisA10
11-08-2018, 01:17 PM
Might suggest getting a part 135 job first. Gain some experience and fly some approaches then apply to Air Wisconsin.
Donít rush with a lackluster plan. Instead of three months, take six, find some quality flying. 135, corporate SIC, even pipeline/survey. Something that gets the mental juices flowing, more than just VFR altitude under your seat. No one in my class near the demographic you described finished. 38% attrition. It isnít that they werenít trainable across the board, per se, itís that they werenít able to get through within the footprint that ZW would allow. Donít know if that template has changed at all.
...fwiw.

Mx241
11-08-2018, 02:19 PM
Donít rush with a lackluster plan. Instead of three months, take six, find some quality flying. 135, corporate SIC, even pipeline/survey. Something that gets the mental juices flowing, more than just VFR altitude under your seat. No one in my class near the demographic you described finished. 38% attrition. It isnít that they werenít trainable across the board, per se, itís that they werenít able to get through within the footprint that ZW would allow. Donít know if that template has changed at all.
...fwiw.

Iím not interested in being an attrition statistic. 135 recommendation noted. Would i benefit from going to a ATP written class with the motion simulator or is that a waste of my money?
Thanks

Soxfan1
11-08-2018, 04:08 PM
Iím not interested in being an attrition statistic. 135 recommendation noted. Would i benefit from going to a ATP written class with the motion simulator or is that a waste of my money?
Thanks

Awa will pay for it if you need it (no atp) and you will be getting min guarantee pay during those two Weeks. AWA uses the same CRJ 200 that we use for training and with line pilots. 10 hours free in the same sim you will do your training in. If you drop 4-5k at an off the street school you will not be in a 200 for sure. Some use ac no longer common such as DC9s, early generation 737s ect.

Paying for an atp course is not recommended by me at all. Iíd guess that that would be true across this board.

DarkSideMoon
11-08-2018, 04:36 PM
Awa will pay for it if you need it (no atp) and you will be getting min guarantee pay during those two Weeks. AWA uses the same CRJ 200 that we use for training and with line pilots. 10 hours free in the same sim you will do your training in. If you drop 4-5k at an off the street school you will not be in a 200 for sure. Some use ac no longer common such as DC9s, early generation 737s ect.

Paying for an atp course is not recommended by me at all. Iíd guess that that would be true across this board.

Not to mention the ATP/CTP course involves next to no maneuvers/procedures youíll use to pass a checkride. I agree, waste of money.

Mx241
11-08-2018, 05:12 PM
Not to mention the ATP/CTP course involves next to no maneuvers/procedures youíll use to pass a checkride. I agree, waste of money.

Thanks for the information

6shooter
11-08-2018, 06:05 PM
With the rate of training failures in this company, >50% per class, get the best quality time you can.

Soxfan1
11-09-2018, 04:35 AM
With the rate of training failures in this company, >50% per class, get the best quality time you can.

Is it really that high? I mean I have heard lots of rumors of our rate being higher than others but never heard it was that high. Is this number published anywhere?

I know my large class a little less than 2 years ago was 25%. It was the 135 guys that struggled (not all but most). The CFI, Part 91, corporate, previous or returning 121 and military all passed.

pitchtrim
11-09-2018, 05:55 AM
I don't think it's 50%. They only give everyone all the time and resources in the world to succeed. The problem is people want it either spoon fed or handed to them, or after 5 trips and 100 hours still can't land the plane when they end up on my schedule.

Cessnaflyer1213
11-09-2018, 09:03 AM
It's not 50%. 10% maybe. It takes work. Hard study. Reading .... a lot of reading. ATP/CTP, Indoc, and Systems classes all have a good learning pace that anyone can do. Starting in Cockpit procedures the learning curve goes straight up. You get 4 days to memorize FO and Captain checklists, callouts, and sequences. It's not that you can't learn it, it's just compressed into such a short time in the name of saving a buck. I read ahead on the syllabus and knew the expectations before I got there. I was practicing and memorizing weeks prior. Simulator training was also fast paced. It was recently lengthened from 2 to 3 weeks because most people could not get proficient in the 2 week footprint. Heck, in the 2 week model they were still introducing maneuvers the day before your checkride.

I had a small class, but 100% made it to the line. My Cockpit procedures partner was from a prior class and didn't make it through the sim. He had issues with the high volume of information and struggled processing at 250+ knots. My sim partner also was from a prior class. He had 2200 hours from a Florida flight school but didn't know which way to put his ailerons in a crosswind. He lacked some basic airmanship that was very evident in the sim. Those, and people who think the info is going to be spoon fed like Private Pilot ground school, are the people that don't make it through.

Folks are getting up to 4 weeks of sim time and 3-4 weeks of IOE to get through. The company is helping anyone willing to put in the work and shows promise.

Rotor2prop
11-09-2018, 09:31 AM
It's not 50%. 10% maybe. It takes work. Hard study. Reading .... a lot of reading. ATP/CTP, Indoc, and Systems classes all have a good learning pace that anyone can do. Starting in Cockpit procedures the learning curve goes straight up. You get 4 days to memorize FO and Captain checklists, callouts, and sequences. It's not that you can't learn it, it's just compressed into such a short time in the name of saving a buck. I read ahead on the syllabus and knew the expectations before I got there. I was practicing and memorizing weeks prior. Simulator training was also fast paced. It was recently lengthened from 2 to 3 weeks because most people could not get proficient in the 2 week footprint. Heck, in the 2 week model they were still introducing maneuvers the day before your checkride.

I had a small class, but 100% made it to the line. My Cockpit procedures partner was from a prior class and didn't make it through the sim. He had issues with the high volume of information and struggled processing at 250+ knots. My sim partner also was from a prior class. He had 2200 hours from a Florida flight school but didn't know which way to put his ailerons in a crosswind. He lacked some basic airmanship that was very evident in the sim. Those, and people who think the info is going to be spoon fed like Private Pilot ground school, are the people that don't make it through.

Folks are getting up to 4 weeks of sim time and 3-4 weeks of IOE to get through. The company is helping anyone willing to put in the work and shows promise.

Is systems training still "build the airplane" style? I remember reading that numerous time on here that they are still way back in the old school way with systems.

DarkSideMoon
11-09-2018, 09:33 AM
Is systems training still "build the airplane" style? I remember reading that numerous time on here that they are still way back in the old school way with systems.

Allegedly no but if you show our oral questions to someone that flies for any other -200 operator theyíre dumbfounded.

The key takeaway is do not trust the training department. Get gouges for the oral, memory items, IAC, and flows/profiles long before you show up for class. Theyíll tell you not to study ahead and that everything you need to know is in FCM volume two, which is an absolute falsehood. Itís not terrible if you know what their expectations are ahead of time but they do a terrible job of communicating that.

There are a lot of unnecessarily ruined PRIAís out there for people who probably wouldíve passed at airlines with more modern training departments.

Cessnaflyer1213
11-09-2018, 10:32 AM
Is systems training still "build the airplane" style? I remember reading that numerous time on here that they are still way back in the old school way with systems.

Build? No. But, like Dakside notes it seems to be a higher expectation than others. They don't want simple rote memorization, they are looking for "application" level knowledge. "What makes the gear go up and down?" Hydraulics .... rote. "What happens if hydraulic pump #1 fails?" The answer requires some application level understanding .... As old as these planes are, as often that things break, an above average understanding of the machine under your butt comes in handy sometimes.

Rotor2prop
11-09-2018, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the replies!

jetlag q
11-10-2018, 04:20 AM
Buy the plane fly the hours. Trust they only look at the minimums anyone saying different isnít in the loop.

Soxfan1
11-10-2018, 12:24 PM
Buy the plane fly the hours. Trust they only look at the minimums anyone saying different isnít in the loop.

I agree that recruiting wonít care. I think the OP wants to make sure the choice they make sets them up for a successful training experience.

I think it could two ways, Buy plane:

1. Fly vfr in uncontrolled airspace for 500 hours.

2. File IFR, in and out of busy airspace, practice approaches, holds, ect for 500 hours.

Both will get him the job. The second would allow him to keep it.

Mx241
11-10-2018, 02:50 PM
I agree that recruiting wonít care. I think the OP wants to make sure the choice they make sets them up for a successful training experience.

I think it could two ways, Buy plane:

1. Fly vfr in uncontrolled airspace for 500 hours.

2. File IFR, in and out of busy airspace, practice approaches, holds, ect for 500 hours.

Both will get him the job. The second would allow him to keep it.

I appreciate the huge response. All good advice. Iím buying the C-150 I had an annual done for a pre-buy. The seller is paying to have it IFR certified and Iím paying to ad a G/S. Supposed to pick it up over thanksgiving. In addition to flying around I have a ppl student and an instrument student lined up. Iíve been studying the ATP material and plan to buy a CRJ 200 systems study guide. An AA CA I go to church with offered to help (he encouraged me to consider re-entering aviation) Iím going to ask him to grill me in a simulator. Thatís about all I know to do. Iíll sink or swim.
I really appreciate all the honest advice.

jetlag q
11-10-2018, 02:57 PM
I agree that recruiting wonít care. I think the OP wants to make sure the choice they make sets them up for a successful training experience.

I think it could two ways, Buy plane:

1. Fly vfr in uncontrolled airspace for 500 hours.

2. File IFR, in and out of busy airspace, practice approaches, holds, ect for 500 hours.

Both will get him the job. The second would allow him to keep it.

Agreed, getting the job and keeping the job two different things.

Flaps8posrate
11-10-2018, 03:55 PM
Great! Feel free to PM me at anytime!
I appreciate the huge response. All good advice. Iím buying the C-150 I had an annual done for a pre-buy. The seller is paying to have it IFR certified and Iím paying to ad a G/S. Supposed to pick it up over thanksgiving. In addition to flying around I have a ppl student and an instrument student lined up. Iíve been studying the ATP material and plan to buy a CRJ 200 systems study guide. An AA CA I go to church with offered to help (he encouraged me to consider re-entering aviation) Iím going to ask him to grill me in a simulator. Thatís about all I know to do. Iíll sink or swim.
I really appreciate all the honest advice.

dino87
11-20-2018, 03:44 AM
Where can we get the memory items and flows? I don't want to just get the lists and then show up to class and find out I learned/memorized the wrong items.

Soxfan1
11-20-2018, 05:52 AM
Where can we get the memory items and flows? I don't want to just get the lists and then show up to class and find out I learned/memorized the wrong items.

AWA doesnít send anything out in advance. During the two weeks of INDOC I worked on IAC memory items and boxed limitations in addition to INDOC stuff of course. Wait for the first week of Systems and they explain our checklists and flows the first few days. Starting on flows before that could be counterproductive to some. Then I spent those two weeks learning flows/checklists and kept reviewing the IAC and limits from weeks 1-2, expanding past the memory ones to all of the IAC and all of the limits. I never felt that those 4 weeks were not enough time if you start day 1 and do a little each day. Take one day off each week from studying- Friday night or sat.

If you want to do anything before make sure you are instrument current and proficient. Use spare time before class to tie up all personal items so as to be fully engaged for the next 8-10 weeks.

Cessnaflyer1213
11-28-2018, 05:48 AM
Where can we get the memory items and flows? I don't want to just get the lists and then show up to class and find out I learned/memorized the wrong items.

I would agree with Soxfan. I had a month off in between Systems and Cockpit Procedures. I hit the books hard during that time for checklists, flows, and more aircraft systems and limitations study. I walked into Cockpit Procedures feeling about 80% ready. There was another break between Cockpit Procedures and sim training. I kept studying. It paid off in a successful oral and checkride.

DarkSideMoon
11-28-2018, 08:23 AM
I would agree with Soxfan. I had a month off in between Systems and Cockpit Procedures. I hit the books hard during that time for checklists, flows, and more aircraft systems and limitations study. I walked into Cockpit Procedures feeling about 80% ready. There was another break between Cockpit Procedures and sim training. I kept studying. It paid off in a successful oral and checkride.

Some people get a month, others get a weekend. Donít anticipate getting a month off to study flows.

Soxfan1
11-28-2018, 09:37 AM
Some people get a month, others get a weekend. Donít anticipate getting a month off to study flows.

Agreed. My classes range from systems to CPT was 3-7 days. CPT to SIMs 2-4 days. Plan on using the 4 weeks of ground school in ATW for studying the above mentioned stuff.

RabidW0mbat
11-29-2018, 03:41 AM
My class started in August and had 6 weeks off from systems to CPT, but that number has steadily been decreasing. Iíd be done with systems and close to ready to go with flows / etc.

Flaps8posrate
11-29-2018, 08:53 PM
My class is one of the largest of record, at 19 and, we are at 4-5 weeks from sustems to CPT. Flows, profiles and call outs are the biggest items for study after systems. Plus review systems.
What other airlines cover in the sim, we are expected to be performing adequately in CPT before entering the sims.
A higher level of knowledge is expected here.



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