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View Full Version : Norwegian OSM...


PotatoChip
11-09-2018, 08:27 AM
Iíve never been a hater or supporter of any of the Norwegian spin-offs, I donít pay attention to ALPA propaganda and rhetoric, and I generally have remained neutral to most of this...
However, this interview:

https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/22074-exclusive-with-osm-aviation-bringing-back-charm-to-pilots-career

is enough to make me say forget this Piece of garbage and his company. He readily admits that pilot pay has plummeted and responsibilities have increased, yet in the same breath blames senior pilots for not encouraging the younger generation to fly and blames them for the shortage. YHGTBFSM.
Not once does he address that compensation needs to be increased, only that schedule flexibility needs to be improved and ab initio programs are the answer. Get out of here. Canít wait for it to fail.


symbian simian
11-13-2018, 08:54 PM
correct.........

CousinEddie
11-14-2018, 08:14 AM
OSM

Out-Source-Me Aviation

The Undercutters Pizza business model.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdfztAY3qoU


Big E 757
11-29-2018, 05:57 AM
Iíve never been a hater or supporter of any of the Norwegian spin-offs, I donít pay attention to ALPA propaganda and rhetoric, and I generally have remained neutral to most of this...
However, this interview:

https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/22074-exclusive-with-osm-aviation-bringing-back-charm-to-pilots-career

is enough to make me say forget this Piece of garbage and his company. He readily admits that pilot pay has plummeted and responsibilities have increased, yet in the same breath blames senior pilots for not encouraging the younger generation to fly and blames them for the shortage. YHGTBFSM.
Not once does he address that compensation needs to be increased, only that schedule flexibility needs to be improved and ab initio programs are the answer. Get out of here. Canít wait for it to fail.

My cousin is a mortgage broker in the Ft. Lauderdale area. He called me one day and said ďI thought you guys made more money, I just did a mortgage for a 787 pilot and he didnít even crack $100K last year.Ē I asked who the guy worked for. He said OSM?? I hadnít heard of them so I did a little research and discovered these guys.

There will always be pilots willing to undercut everyone else for a shortcut. Itís sad but true.

TiredSoul
11-29-2018, 09:43 AM
My cousin is a mortgage broker in the Ft. Lauderdale area. He called me one day and said ďI thought you guys made more money, I just did a mortgage for a 787 pilot and he didnít even crack $100K last year.Ē I asked who the guy worked for. He said OSM?? I hadnít heard of them so I did a little research and discovered these guys.

There will always be pilots willing to undercut everyone else for a shortcut. Itís sad but true.

Iím expecting they would start as cruise relief pilots or Ďsecond officersí.
And first year pay? We all know about first year pay.
What like 90% of the airlines in the US first year pay is below $100k?

Big E 757
11-29-2018, 01:00 PM
Iím expecting they would start as cruise relief pilots or Ďsecond officersí.
And first year pay? We all know about first year pay.
What like 90% of the airlines in the US first year pay is below $100k?

I think, but Iím not sure, that this guy was a Captain

zondaracer
11-29-2018, 01:29 PM
$120,000 is about the pay for a 787 captain at Norwegian.
~$90,000 for a relief captain.
About $66,000 for an FO.

A friend of mine is a 737 captain in Europe for Norwegian and he said his take home pay is about 8000 Euros a month. He said that the 787 captain is the same and I asked why would anyone fly the 787 in that case? He said the 737 is all locals at his base, and the 787 is flown by commuters. I told him what a 737 captain makes in the US and he was quite shocked and said, "No wonder they hate us."

NEDude
11-29-2018, 11:56 PM
$120,000 is about the pay for a 787 captain at Norwegian.
~$90,000 for a relief captain.
About $66,000 for an FO.

A friend of mine is a 737 captain in Europe for Norwegian and he said his take home pay is about 8000 Euros a month. He said that the 787 captain is the same and I asked why would anyone fly the 787 in that case? He said the 737 is all locals at his base, and the 787 is flown by commuters. I told him what a 737 captain makes in the US and he was quite shocked and said, "No wonder they hate us."

Did your friend tell you what most pilots make in Europe? Pay in Europe is significantly lower than it is in the States, even for the legacy airlines. If you hate Norwegian because of pay or contracts, you need to hate every single European airline. Even those Lufthansa and British Airways guys flying the 747s and A380s are making significantly less than wide body pilots at United, Delta and American. But of course ALPA will not tell you that. And I doubt ALPA is telling you what Eurowings and TUI pilots are getting paid to fly wide body airplanes to and from U.S. destinations.

dera
11-30-2018, 12:45 AM
Even those Lufthansa and British Airways guys flying the 747s and A380s are making significantly less than wide body pilots at United, Delta and American. But of course ALPA will not tell you that. And I doubt ALPA is telling you what Eurowings and TUI pilots are getting paid to fly wide body airplanes to and from U.S. destinations.

A jetBlue FO makes more than a top LH/BA A380 captain.

zondaracer
11-30-2018, 02:49 AM
Did your friend tell you what most pilots make in Europe? Pay in Europe is significantly lower than it is in the States, even for the legacy airlines. If you hate Norwegian because of pay or contracts, you need to hate every single European airline. Even those Lufthansa and British Airways guys flying the 747s and A380s are making significantly less than wide body pilots at United, Delta and American. But of course ALPA will not tell you that. And I doubt ALPA is telling you what Eurowings and TUI pilots are getting paid to fly wide body airplanes to and from U.S. destinations.
Iím definitely familiar with what pilots make in Europe. I never said I hated Norwegian pilots. Those were his words, not mine. I lived in Europe for a few years and have the EASA license, but I donít intend to work for a European carrier at this time.

NEDude
11-30-2018, 03:21 AM
Iím definitely familiar with what pilots make in Europe. I never said I hated Norwegian pilots. Those were his words, not mine. I lived in Europe for a few years and have the EASA license, but I donít intend to work for a European carrier at this time.

I did not mean "you" specifically, I meant "you" generally speaking. As in if a person is going to hate Norwegian Air pilots for making less than pilots at U.S. airlines, then that person needs to hate all European pilots because virtually all European airlines pay less than U.S. airlines.

Big E 757
11-30-2018, 04:37 AM
$120,000 is about the pay for a 787 captain at Norwegian.
~$90,000 for a relief captain.
About $66,000 for an FO.

A friend of mine is a 737 captain in Europe for Norwegian and he said his take home pay is about 8000 Euros a month. He said that the 787 captain is the same and I asked why would anyone fly the 787 in that case? He said the 737 is all locals at his base, and the 787 is flown by commuters. I told him what a 737 captain makes in the US and he was quite shocked and said, "No wonder they hate us."

What is OSM paying their contract guys? Is it the same as what Norwegian is paying the Europe pilots?

zondaracer
11-30-2018, 04:45 AM
What is OSM paying their contract guys? Is it the same as what Norwegian is paying the Europe pilots?

Iím not sure what the OSM guys in the US are being paid but I believe it is similar to what I posted. I asked my friend if he was specially flying for NAI, and he said yes. I didnít ask if he was employed through OSM.

NEDude
11-30-2018, 06:45 AM
What is OSM paying their contract guys? Is it the same as what Norwegian is paying the Europe pilots?

The contracts are different based on the country in which you are based. The contracts must comply with local laws. In other words, contrary to what ALPA has told everyone, NAI cannot base pilots in Denmark on an Irish contract. The Denmark based pilots must be on a Danish contract. Norwegian has just opened a Copenhagen base for 787 pilots and those guys are directly employed by Norwegian, not an agency, on a permanent Danish contract negotiated by one of the two main Danish pilots unions, Flyvebranchens Personale Union (FPU). However pilots based in LGW are employed by either Rishworth/Global Crew UK, or OSM, on a U.K. contract. The Paris based pilots have a French contract through OSM, Barcelona a Spanish contract, and Rome an Italian contract. Each contract has slightly different terms and conditions based upon the local labor laws and whether or not there is a union involved. So it is not quite so easy to make a direct, blanket comparison between the U.S. based pilots and the Europe based pilots. You have to compare it base to base.

GogglesPisano
11-30-2018, 09:35 AM
The contracts are different based on the country in which you are based. The contracts must comply with local laws. In other words, contrary to what ALPA has told everyone, NAI cannot base pilots in Denmark on an Irish contract. The Denmark based pilots must be on a Danish contract. Norwegian has just opened a Copenhagen base for 787 pilots and those guys are directly employed by Norwegian, not an agency, on a permanent Danish contract negotiated by one of the two main Danish pilots unions, Flyvebranchens Personale Union (FPU). However pilots based in LGW are employed by either Rishworth/Global Crew UK, or OSM, on a U.K. contract. The Paris based pilots have a French contract through OSM, Barcelona a Spanish contract, and Rome an Italian contract. Each contract has slightly different terms and conditions based upon the local labor laws and whether or not there is a union involved. So it is not quite so easy to make a direct, blanket comparison between the U.S. based pilots and the Europe based pilots. You have to compare it base to base.

Iím sure all this shell-gaming works to laborís benefit.:rolleyes:

PotatoChip
11-30-2018, 09:43 AM
I’m sure all this shell-gaming works to labor’s benefit.:rolleyes:

Does any airline try to ensure their rules and pay are to labor’s benefit and not that of the business? :rolleyes:

NEDude
11-30-2018, 09:51 AM
I’m sure all this shell-gaming works to labor’s benefit.:rolleyes:

It depends. Some countries where there are bases are far more labor friendly. Denmark has some pretty strict labor laws and is very labor union friendly. Yet Norwegian just opened a fairly large long haul base in Copenhagen. I am sure they did not do that in an attempt to screw labor.

Edit - The same goes Norwegian's the Paris base. France is known for very active unions that regularly strike. Again, I doubt they opened a base there for the purpose of screwing labor.

symbian simian
11-30-2018, 04:33 PM
A jetBlue FO makes more than a top LH/BA A380 captain.

KLM widebody captain (and to get widebody captain at any legacy in the USA you would need 20 years) makes around $300K. Biggest difference, he was hired into KLM at age 20, starting pay $80K, never displaced or furloughed, and retires at age 57 with 70% of his pay. Not saying that the EU LCC are great, but 4 year easyJet captain makes over $200K. WOW, Ryan, Vueling aso are very different.

Cosa Nostra
11-30-2018, 06:22 PM
KLM widebody captain (and to get widebody captain at any legacy in the USA you would need 20 years) makes around $300K. Biggest difference, he was hired into KLM at age 20, starting pay $80K, never displaced or furloughed, and retires at age 57 with 70% of his pay. Not saying that the EU LCC are great, but 4 year easyJet captain makes over $200K. WOW, Ryan, Vueling aso are very different.


FOs make 300k a year here in the states, no denying that.

I think your numbers are a bit off (I'm talking easyjet, don't know anyone at KLM) .. plus their schedules are horrendous.



Vueling is one of the lowest paying airlines in the world.

dera
11-30-2018, 07:55 PM
KLM widebody captain (and to get widebody captain at any legacy in the USA you would need 20 years) makes around $300K. Biggest difference, he was hired into KLM at age 20, starting pay $80K, never displaced or furloughed, and retires at age 57 with 70% of his pay. Not saying that the EU LCC are great, but 4 year easyJet captain makes over $200K. WOW, Ryan, Vueling aso are very different.

4 year easyJet captain does NOT make 200k a year. Closer to half of that.
KLM is an exception in Europe, and the top pay for straight-up captains is not 300k, closer to 250k. Few make 300k but they often have other positions too.
Starting pay at KLM is around 60k. That's way higher than any other legacy. BA starting pay is around 35k.

BA top captains hit 200k, average is closer to 150k. LH is about the same.
AY, no-one makes more than 150k.
Also remember, these guys pay 50% or more in income taxes, and 20+% VAT etc.
Take home pay, apart from KLM, in European legacies is comparable to good regionals or ULCC's in the US.

GreenTailWhale
11-30-2018, 08:09 PM
4 year easyJet captain does NOT make 200k a year. Closer to half of that.
KLM is an exception in Europe, and the top pay for straight-up captains is not 300k, closer to 250k. Few make 300k but they often have other positions too.
Starting pay at KLM is around 60k. That's way higher than any other legacy. BA starting pay is around 35k.

BA top captains hit 200k, average is closer to 150k. LH is about the same.
AY, no-one makes more than 150k.
Also remember, these guys pay 50% or more in income taxes, and 20+% VAT etc.
Take home pay, apart from KLM, in European legacies is comparable to good regionals or ULCC in the US.


I think you will find that those BA salaries are in pounds sterling, which changes things significantly in the favor of the European airlines. I think you will also find that the other European numbers are in Euros. Most of the European Legacies pay their first year pilots very well, as compared to the USA. This is particularly true when considering that the average new hire pilot at a legacy in Europe is in their early 20ís. In the US, pilots at that age are at a regional, getting paid pretty much garbage. Although that garbage has gotten better as of late from what I read.

dera
11-30-2018, 08:41 PM
I think you will find that those BA salaries are in pounds sterling, which changes things significantly in the favor of the European airlines. I think you will also find that the other European numbers are in Euros. Most of the European Legacies pay their first year pilots very well, as compared to the USA. This is particularly true when considering that the average new hire pilot at a legacy in Europe is in their early 20’s. In the US, pilots at that age are at a regional, getting paid pretty much garbage. Although that garbage has gotten better as of late from what I read.

I'm from Europe, I lived there for 30 years. I've got a lot of friends flying around the continent for pretty much every airline out there.

Starting salary for most legacies is worse than US regional starting salary right now.
I'm pretty sure KLM is the only one where you can break $60k your first year.
You can hit $60k on almost every regional in the US first year.

Also, don't get me started on training bonds, something almost every European carrier has today.
Ryanair still makes you pay for interview (and training if you pass the interview).

Also - when people talk about widebody pay, you need to remember that widebody is the junior spot in a lot of EU carriers. Plenty of pilots start as CRC or even MPL kind of position in a widebody, then move on to the right seat on a narrowbody. The seniority system isn't like it is in the US. A lot of companies pay the same for narrow- and widebodies. There are some overrides, but often those are not very significant. I've got a lot of friends who moved from WB to NB because they didn't like the lifestyle, and they both pay the same.

You can't really compare US and EU carriers, they are just not the same. And the pay is much, much lower especially if you look at take home numbers in EU, than in the US.

(then again - have 3 kids in college and EU is waaay more affordable, again - different strokes for different folks).

GreenTailWhale
12-01-2018, 12:55 AM
I'm from Europe, I lived there for 30 years. I've got a lot of friends flying around the continent for pretty much every airline out there.

Starting salary for most legacies is worse than US regional starting salary right now.
I'm pretty sure KLM is the only one where you can break $60k your first year.
You can hit $60k on almost every regional in the US first year.

Also, don't get me started on training bonds, something almost every European carrier has today.
Ryanair still makes you pay for interview (and training if you pass the interview).

Also - when people talk about widebody pay, you need to remember that widebody is the junior spot in a lot of EU carriers. Plenty of pilots start as CRC or even MPL kind of position in a widebody, then move on to the right seat on a narrowbody. The seniority system isn't like it is in the US. A lot of companies pay the same for narrow- and widebodies. There are some overrides, but often those are not very significant. I've got a lot of friends who moved from WB to NB because they didn't like the lifestyle, and they both pay the same.

You can't really compare US and EU carriers, they are just not the same. And the pay is much, much lower especially if you look at take home numbers in EU, than in the US.

(then again - have 3 kids in college and EU is waaay more affordable, again - different strokes for different folks).

Well dera, your statements seem to disagree with this website...
Pilot Jobs Network - Recruitment news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/) which states salaries from many airlines.

... as well as simple google searches which bring up news media articles with salaries from Lufthansa and BA. A simple search of pprune also disagrees with your statements. Not to mention, I also have several friends at both BA and Lufthansa, and they also disagree with your statements. I guess the three of them, along with pprune, the media, and pilotjobsnetowork, could all be lying. Darn fake news. Anyways, no point in arguing. As long as we all can support our families on whatever salaries we earn...is all that matters.

Safe flights, and Happy Holidays

Cosa Nostra
12-01-2018, 03:49 AM
I think you will find that those BA salaries are in pounds sterling, which changes things significantly in the favor of the European airlines. I think you will also find that the other European numbers are in Euros. Most of the European Legacies pay their first year pilots very well, as compared to the USA. This is particularly true when considering that the average new hire pilot at a legacy in Europe is in their early 20ís. In the US, pilots at that age are at a regional, getting paid pretty much garbage. Although that garbage has gotten better as of late from what I read.


The only thing better they have is a ton of vacation time from day one. 30-40 days a year easy.

captjns
12-01-2018, 07:21 AM
Also, don't get me started on training bonds, something almost every European carrier has today.

Ryanair still makes you pay for interview (and training if you pass the interview).

Just an oversight on your behalf Dera:rolleyes:

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

zondaracer
12-01-2018, 08:49 AM
Captjns, that is definitely a step in the right direction!

NEDude
12-01-2018, 10:07 PM
4 year easyJet captain does NOT make 200k a year. Closer to half of that.


My offer from easyJet two years ago, as a direct entry captain based in LGW, started at about $145,000 (based on today's conversion rate) and climbed to around $170,000 by year five.

dera
12-02-2018, 02:41 AM
My offer from easyJet two years ago, as a direct entry captain based in LGW, started at about $145,000 (based on today's conversion rate) and climbed to around $170,000 by year five.

So that's what, Ä120k? Pretty far from 200k.
Need to be more specific with currencies.

dera
12-02-2018, 03:48 AM
So that's what, Ä120k? Pretty far from 200k.
Need to be more specific with currencies.

The point I'm just trying to make is, that Norwegian isn't "crushing" pilot salaries etc. Their compensation seems to be in line with most similar EU carriers.

NEDude
12-02-2018, 08:11 AM
So that's what, Ä120k? Pretty far from 200k.
Need to be more specific with currencies.

The pay in my contract offer was in British Pounds. Based on the exchange rate of today (December 2, 2018), the contract was worth about $145,000 United States Dollars per year to start, and rising to about $170,000 United States Dollars by year five.

sailingfun
12-02-2018, 08:23 AM
The point I'm just trying to make is, that Norwegian isn't "crushing" pilot salaries etc. Their compensation seems to be in line with most similar EU carriers.

The rates they were offering for US based pilots were not in line with US salaries.

Joachim
12-03-2018, 05:18 PM
The rates they were offering for US based pilots were not in line with US salaries.


It isn't a US Airline.

Cosa Nostra
12-03-2018, 06:02 PM
How does that even matter?

Theyíre employing US-based pilots. Just like a thousand other foreign companies that employ millions of Americans. They all offer competive salaries based on local market conditions ó except NAI or whatever they call themselves these days.

Unfortunately, pilots are still showing up to interview because ďit beats flying an RJ.Ē


This right here.

GogglesPisano
12-03-2018, 06:02 PM
It isn't a US Airline.

But theyíre employing US-based pilots, are they not? They have to compete for local labor just like a thousand other foreign companies operating in the US.

NEDude
12-04-2018, 02:47 AM
But theyíre employing US-based pilots, are they not? They have to compete for local labor just like a thousand other foreign companies operating in the US.

If they are successful in meeting their needs for U.S. based pilots, then from a corporate perspective, they are paying what they need.

GogglesPisano
12-04-2018, 07:14 AM
If they are successful in meeting their needs for U.S. based pilots, then from a corporate perspective, they are paying what they need.

This is true.

But in regards to who if willing to fly a shiny 787 for RJ wages well ... let's call a spade a spade.

Sniper66
12-04-2018, 02:55 PM
It isn't a US Airline.




You should have stayed at republic
Legacy job will be a long shot

Cosa Nostra
12-04-2018, 03:19 PM
You should have stayed at republic
Legacy job will be a long shot

Everyone hates the legacy carriers until they get that interview :rolleyes:

Sniper66
12-05-2018, 12:50 PM
Everyone hates the legacy carriers until they get that interview :rolleyes:



Indeed

3 year upgrade at both delta and United and about 235 per hour as of today

Cujo665
12-07-2018, 01:31 PM
I think you will find that those BA salaries are in pounds sterling, which changes things significantly in the favor of the European airlines. I think you will also find that the other European numbers are in Euros. Most of the European Legacies pay their first year pilots very well, as compared to the USA. This is particularly true when considering that the average new hire pilot at a legacy in Europe is in their early 20’s. In the US, pilots at that age are at a regional, getting paid pretty much garbage. Although that garbage has gotten better as of late from what I read.

The MPL makes just about anybody hirable....

Plenty of willing souls wanting to be Airline pilots wanting to live the dream.... keeps wages low. Like the US used to be.

mike sierra
12-09-2018, 08:09 AM
A jetBlue FO makes more than a top LH/BA A380 captain.

This is not correct

Hindenburg
12-12-2018, 04:01 PM
Careful when you compare European salaries to US.
Usually, European salaries include pension (although crapy), health insurance and unemployment insurance.
In general you can deduct around 40 to 55% from the gross pay to get the net pay. This applies especially to the northern states like Germany, Denmark, Sweden. Applied Tax alone can be up to 43%. UK is much less.
While net salaries in the US might appear huge in number, still medicare or 401K have to be deducted. Taxes are significantly lower tough. Unemployment insurance? Whatīs that?.

NEDude
12-13-2018, 03:37 AM
Careful when you compare European salaries to US.
Usually, European salaries include pension (although crapy), health insurance and unemployment insurance.
In general you can deduct around 40 to 55% from the gross pay to get the net pay. This applies especially to the northern states like Germany, Denmark, Sweden. Applied Tax alone can be up to 43%. UK is much less.
While net salaries in the US might appear huge in number, still medicare or 401K have to be deducted. Taxes are significantly lower tough. Unemployment insurance? Whatīs that?.

Before I moved to Europe (Scandinavia) I compared my paycheck and expenses with my European wife's paycheck and expenses. Despite the significantly higher tax rate, she got a far better deal. She worked in a non-flying position for SAS and was taxed at about 47% overall. Her compensation included a 20% pension and a private unemployment insurance. Her taxes covered 100% of her health insurance, and because of the education system in Denmark, she had no outstanding student loans or to have to save for the kids education. Even though I had a lower tax rate in the states, I had a 401k contribution (that did not come close to what she had), student loan payments, health insurance premiums and copays for visits and prescriptions. On top of that there were a lot of additional little things like educational supplies and fees for kids activities that my wife never had to pay for because they are all covered under taxes. At the end of the day, my wife had a pretty sizable advantage when it came to disposable income. And because she never had to take out student loans, she had better purchasing power because she had no outstanding debt. On top of that she was guaranteed by law five weeks plus five additional days of annual vacation. So you are correct, it is very hard to make an apples to apples comparison of European compensation and U.S. compensation.

Just as an FYI, Norwegian did recently open a 787 base in Copenhagen. All the pilots there are directly employed by Norwegian, not through an agency. They are unionized, they have a 12% pension, loss of license insurance, supplemental travel insurance, five weeks of vacation. The fact that they have a different employment agreement compared to other Norwegian bases is similar to how other European airlines operate which have different contracts dependent on base and fleet type. Even British Airways has different employment contracts and conditions dependent on whether you are short haul vs. long haul or Heathrow based vs. Gatwick based vs. Manchester based.

rickair7777
12-16-2018, 12:04 PM
Careful when you compare European salaries to US.
Usually, European salaries include pension (although crapy), health insurance and unemployment insurance.
In general you can deduct around 40 to 55% from the gross pay to get the net pay. This applies especially to the northern states like Germany, Denmark, Sweden. Applied Tax alone can be up to 43%. UK is much less.
While net salaries in the US might appear huge in number, still medicare or 401K have to be deducted. Taxes are significantly lower tough. Unemployment insurance? Whatīs that?.

Medicare yes. But all decent US majors now do a 15% DC which should be sufficient for retirement if you have 25+ years and will upgrade. So out of pocket not required unless you want to go above and beyond.

The current reality...

I know personally numerous dual citizens who have recently returned to the US for legacy/big six jobs. From LH, AF, EK, and a several Asian carriers.

This too shall pass of course, but right now the US is the place to be. Although parts of Europe are very nice, and some of their airlines will still provide a great living at home. Can't fault anyone for that.

ShyGuy
12-20-2018, 08:01 AM
How are taxes for EU pilots? Say a BA guy and LH and AF.

Like here between Fed, State, Med, Soc Sec, those 4 you’re paying 35-40%+ of your paycheck to taxes.

How does it look for mandatory taxes on the paycheck for those pilots in Europe?

Cosa Nostra
12-20-2018, 03:27 PM
Medicare yes. But all decent US majors now do a 15% DC which should be sufficient for retirement if you have 25+ years and will upgrade. So out of pocket not required unless you want to go above and beyond.

The current reality...

I know personally numerous dual citizens who have recently returned to the US for legacy/big six jobs. From LH, AF, EK, and a several Asian carriers.

This too shall pass of course, but right now the US is the place to be. Although parts of Europe are very nice, and some of their airlines will still provide a great living at home. Can't fault anyone for that.


I'm in the process of finding women for my buddies in Europe to get them that US passport so they can fly here .. :D

Cosa Nostra
12-20-2018, 03:29 PM
How are taxes for EU pilots? Say a BA guy and LH and AF.

Like here between Fed, State, Med, Soc Sec, those 4 you’re paying 35-40%+ of your paycheck to taxes.

How does it look for mandatory taxes on the paycheck for those pilots in Europe?


Taxes are high, BA, LH and AF pilots pay an average 40-45%.

PilotGR
02-11-2019, 06:10 PM
Did your friend tell you what most pilots make in Europe? Pay in Europe is significantly lower than it is in the States, even for the legacy airlines. If you hate Norwegian because of pay or contracts, you need to hate every single European airline. Even those Lufthansa and British Airways guys flying the 747s and A380s are making significantly less than wide body pilots at United, Delta and American. But of course ALPA will not tell you that. And I doubt ALPA is telling you what Eurowings and TUI pilots are getting paid to fly wide body airplanes to and from U.S. destinations.


Because boys and girls fly planes in Europe!! cadet programs..etc..

In the US we have a completely different process.. I got hired at UAL with 9K hours...9 years at a regional and 2 at a major before UAL.

207K on 4th year pay..with another 16% in retirement contributions..
14-15 days off per month.

Men and Women fly planes in the US..sorry to sound arrogant.

Every European pilot needs to read Flying the line, volumes 1&2.

Denti
02-12-2019, 01:52 AM
Well, there are of course structural differences. Not much in terms of general aviation, nearly no regional airlines, the smallest type that is commercially viable is either a 737 or an a320, everything else would have to be cross financed by someone, and that is not going to happen, especially with a low cost sector that is much bigger than in the US, where it hovers around 25% of the market, while it is around 35 to 40% in Europe without any signs of stopping in growth.

And of course, since we haven't used paper cheques in more than 30 years, there wasn't any night freight business in small planes to fly useless pieces of papers around the continent.

Not to mention, airlines have been hiring cadets since WWII, trained them themselves, eventually outsourcing those schools and therefore are very comfortable with that. And yes, that was lead by airlines like Lufthansa, British Airways and Air France, not to mention the smaller ones like KLM, Swissair and Swiss as well as Austrian and the Sabena when it still existed. In fact, the MPL, which allows cadets with just 50 hours of experience to fly A320s on the line, was mainly developed by Lufthansa.

And of course, it is quite a diverse continent, with differing labor laws in each of the many tiny countries, different languages, wildly differing income levels and so on. In fact, even in Germany the average income per year is just over 38.000€, and being able to earn in excess of 170k after just 5 years out of flightschool piloting an A320 for a kinda smallish airlines (just 300+ A320 family aircraft growing by roughly 8% each year while turning a profit for 20 years running) is not a bad deal at all. Especially considering that the average yearly salary within the same union can be as low as 9000€ (romania).

And of course, there is unionization. But it doesn't necessarily help. Lufthansa mainline pilots went on strike 14 times in their last dispute. In the end they signed a contract that lowered their T&Cs by 15% on average. That has been just a year ago, amid record profits of their company.

symbian simian
02-13-2019, 02:55 PM
Because boys and girls fly planes in Europe!! cadet programs..etc..

In the US we have a completely different process.. I got hired at UAL with 9K hours...9 years at a regional and 2 at a major before UAL.

207K on 4th year pay..with another 16% in retirement contributions..
14-15 days off per month.

Men and Women fly planes in the US..sorry to sound arrogant.

Every European pilot needs to read Flying the line, volumes 1&2.

Yes you do. The legacies carriers in the EU still have defined benefit plans. Most of the EU regionals are on the legacy seniority list. KLM retirement plan is you stop working at age 57 and get 65% for the rest of your life. Not something I will get. Be proud of flying for $20/hr at a crappy regional and having to wait 9 years to make a decent pay check.
Selling out half the domestic flying and promoting "Flying the line", priceless

Big E 757
02-14-2019, 05:51 AM
Yes you do. The legacies carriers in the EU still have defined benefit plans. Most of the EU regionals are on the legacy seniority list. KLM retirement plan is you stop working at age 57 and get 65% for the rest of your life. Not something I will get. Be proud of flying for $20/hr at a crappy regional and having to wait 9 years to make a decent pay check.
Selling out half the domestic flying and promoting "Flying the line", priceless

If heís been at UAL for 4 years, im pretty sure he didnít vote on selling out half of the domestic flying.

Denti
02-14-2019, 07:07 AM
Yes you do. The legacies carriers in the EU still have defined benefit plans. Most of the EU regionals are on the legacy seniority list. KLM retirement plan is you stop working at age 57 and get 65% for the rest of your life.

Well, KLM is very unique in that point, especially that that retirement age has been held up in court is extremely unusual. Air France, as part of the same group, might be still in a somewhat similar situation, the rest of the legacy carriers is not.

Lufthansa recently abolished their defined benefit plan in favor of a defined contribution one, and retirement age has been upped to 65 quite a few years ago, with an avery of over 60 by now. BA has been out of a defined benefit plan since 2009 or so. And Iberia, well, they lost pretty much every battle they tried to fight. Not to mention, Alitalia has been in bankruptcy proceedings for years, with a consortium of Delta and easyJet now doing the final negotiations about a possible take over. Sabena went down with Swissair, but i have to say, no idea about SAS, although their conditions are quite horrible, even most LCCs pay better by now.

symbian simian
02-14-2019, 01:42 PM
Well, KLM is very unique in that point, especially that that retirement age has been held up in court is extremely unusual. Air France, as part of the same group, might be still in a somewhat similar situation, the rest of the legacy carriers is not.

Lufthansa recently abolished their defined benefit plan in favor of a defined contribution one, and retirement age has been upped to 65 quite a few years ago, with an avery of over 60 by now. BA has been out of a defined benefit plan since 2009 or so. And Iberia, well, they lost pretty much every battle they tried to fight. Not to mention, Alitalia has been in bankruptcy proceedings for years, with a consortium of Delta and easyJet now doing the final negotiations about a possible take over. Sabena went down with Swissair, but i have to say, no idea about SAS, although their conditions are quite horrible, even most LCCs pay better by now.

I left the EU for the US about 15 years ago, not money, family reasons. I guess back then the EU was waaay better, sad to see it's gone down the hill so much. When I got here I flew corporate with a lot of guys that had to go back to work after losing their pension, guys that got stuck in the regional hell for a decade, guys that were on furlough for 10+ years. Right now the US is definitely a good place to work, hopefully the EU can find it's way back.

Grumble
02-27-2019, 04:32 AM
I left the EU for the US about 15 years ago, not money, family reasons. I guess back then the EU was waaay better, sad to see it's gone down the hill so much. When I got here I flew corporate with a lot of guys that had to go back to work after losing their pension, guys that got stuck in the regional hell for a decade, guys that were on furlough for 10+ years. Right now the US is definitely a good place to work, hopefully the EU can find it's way back.

Very strange way of saying ďPilotGR, I was totally wrong and came off like a dooshrocket.... sorry bro.Ē



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