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View Full Version : ORD & Upgrades


Voski
11-11-2018, 10:30 AM
If given the option to choose between the 145 & 175 out of ORD, which aircraft is presently going to be better overall for career progression as a new hire? Career progression, for the sake of this discussion, weíll define as timeline from the right seat to the left seat (hours per month, time to hold a line, ability to pick up extra trips, etc.) and relative seniority gain.

I always thought the 145 was more junior, but the 175 seems like itís a better option ... for now. Whatís projected to happen to the 145 with all the upgrades coming up?


bORD
11-11-2018, 11:44 AM
Both have a lot of flying out of ORD. 145 lines are going to be increasing throughout the next year but reserve times on it are definitely longer than say a year ago. 175 has some good flying too out of Chicago. Both will build you time fast. On the other end of the spectrum is your ability to upgrade on the 175 when the time comes. You may be able to upgrade on it but only time will tell. If you build your 1000 quickly itíll probably be the 145 you upgrade on. Food for thought

Voski
11-11-2018, 12:00 PM
bORD, thank you for the response. I was under the impression that part of Envoy's seatlock rules were that FOs had to upgrade in the same type plane. If that's not the case, the 145 likely makes more sense ... I'd rather not go from 175 FO to 145 CA.


MD-11Loader
11-11-2018, 12:33 PM
bORD, thank you for the response. I was under the impression that part of Envoy's seatlock rules were that FOs had to upgrade in the same type plane. If that's not the case, the 145 likely makes more sense ... I'd rather not go from 175 FO to 145 CA.

Nope. You can upgrade to any fleet. You then incur a two year seat lock and one year flow lock.

bORD
11-11-2018, 12:43 PM
Nope. You can upgrade to any fleet. You then incur a two year seat lock and one year flow lock.

Yes sorry my comment may have been confusing. Yes you can upgrade to any equipment that your seniority can hold. I was saying as of right now if a new hire were to build his or her 1000 121 time as fast as they could they would more likely than not upgrade on the 145. Things may change with all of these new 175s coming in the next couple of years.

MD-11Loader
11-11-2018, 01:07 PM
Yes sorry my comment may have been confusing. Yes you can upgrade to any equipment that your seniority can hold. I was saying as of right now if a new hire were to build his or her 1000 121 time as fast as they could they would more likely than not upgrade on the 145. Things may change with all of these new 175s coming in the next couple of years.

If a new hire built their time as fast as they could then they would more than likely see the 145 or CRJ because they will still be junior. The heavy goes senior. If someone wanted it, then they should take steps to delay hitting 950 hours and triggering the upgrade on the next vacancy. Missing one or two bids could be the difference.

KodiakRS
11-11-2018, 03:40 PM
Nope. You can upgrade to any fleet. You then incur a two year seat lock and one year flow lock.


It's worth noting that involuntary upgrades (displacements) do not incur a seat lock and my transfer to different equipment as soon as they can hold it. If a pilot really wants to be a captain on certain equipment they can wait for it to be open before bidding to captain. If they are involuntarily displaced into the captains seat before this happens they do not incur a seat lock and can still bid to the equipment of their choice as soon as it becomes vacant and their seniority can hold it.

MD-11Loader
11-11-2018, 05:33 PM
It's worth noting that involuntary upgrades (displacements) do not incur a seat lock and my transfer to different equipment as soon as they can hold it. If a pilot really wants to be a captain on certain equipment they can wait for it to be open before bidding to captain. If they are involuntarily displaced into the captains seat before this happens they do not incur a seat lock and can still bid to the equipment of their choice as soon as it becomes vacant and their seniority can hold it.

This is also true.

dera
11-11-2018, 06:02 PM
Nope. You can upgrade to any fleet. You then incur a two year seat lock and one year flow lock.

I'm not sure if "flow lock" is an accurate word, given that you can't flow before you've been a PIC for 12 months? So isn't that pretty much a given fact?

Pedro4President
11-11-2018, 07:51 PM
I'm not sure if "flow lock" is an accurate word, given that you can't flow before you've been a PIC for 12 months? So isn't that pretty much a given fact?

Sorry but I'm not entirely sure what you are saying. Flow lock is accurate but crude term and is for 12 months. There is no requirement to be a CA for 12 months. You only have to be a CA. This may seem contradicting but I'll explain.

If you 3p (preference bid) to a CA slot you are withheld from flowing for a year. If you 3D (displaced) then there is no flow or seat lock.

dera
11-11-2018, 08:45 PM
Sorry but I'm not entirely sure what you are saying. Flow lock is accurate but crude term and is for 12 months. There is no requirement to be a CA for 12 months. You only have to be a CA. This may seem contradicting but I'll explain.

If you 3p (preference bid) to a CA slot you are withheld from flowing for a year. If you 3D (displaced) then there is no flow or seat lock.

Ah ok, that makes sense then. -1 Point for recruiters, they said you have to be a CA for 12 months before you can flow.

MD-11Loader
11-12-2018, 01:17 AM
Sorry but I'm not entirely sure what you are saying. Flow lock is accurate but crude term and is for 12 months. There is no requirement to be a CA for 12 months. You only have to be a CA. This may seem contradicting but I'll explain.

If you 3p (preference bid) to a CA slot you are withheld from flowing for a year. If you 3D (displaced) then there is no flow or seat lock.

You are correct, but if you preference an upgrade (which isnít the best idea) and are awarded it, you cannot flow for one year due to the training freeze in 15.J.2

Pedro4President
11-12-2018, 03:47 AM
Ah ok, that makes sense then. -1 Point for recruiters, they said you have to be a CA for 12 months before you can flow.

Ahhh gotcha.

Well essentially that may be the case for most pilots but it's not really a rule but a reality that most pilots hired today will need to be a ca for 12 months.

Right now we have forced upgrades to CA. Once it stops we then an FO will need to 3p (preference) to a CA position and subsequently need to be a CA for a year before flow. I would call the recruiter's explanation a simplified reality for what you personally could expect. Make sense? Kinda splitting hairs a bit but the devil is in the details.



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