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View Full Version : Hiring Instructors


ecam
11-12-2018, 09:02 AM
Looks like they are hiring instructors, even though the transition is almost finished and they are saying no pilot hiring for the foreseeable future. Rumor is a mass exodus from the training department is about to happen because they are being told no more hotels rental cars or per diem and they have to move to base (SFB or LAS). For those who don't know, instructors here have been informally treated like a TDY base.

Not that I think instructors deserve perks the line pilots don't get just because they chose to serve in the training department. The point is why are they suddenly cutting everyone's perks in the last year. First VBD losing rental cars and long stay hotels, then line pilots having to take bottom shelf Lyft everywhere instead of LL/rental cars, now IPs losing travel options. One would think that TRAVEL is a cheap perk of working for a TRAVEL COMPANY. Being handed a hotel room and rental car to conduct company business was one of the great perks of working here versus a real airline.

Is this typical corporate greed or is something happening behind the scenes? Why are they continuing to tighten the belt and run this place like a company on the verge of bankruptcy when they continue to post impressive profits? Something just doesn't add up.


Captainbfv
11-12-2018, 09:08 AM
Who knows why. But if they are expecting a mass exodus and IF theyíre gonna require people to live in base for instructing, then theyíre gonna find themselves in quite a pickle and being forced to hire contractors for the training department.

I had thought of joining the training department, but if itís gonna be nothing but drama, and no perks/incentive then thanx but no thanx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Desert Sky
11-13-2018, 02:45 PM
Looks like they are hiring instructors, even though the transition is almost finished and they are saying no pilot hiring for the foreseeable future. Rumor is a mass exodus from the training department is about to happen because they are being told no more hotels rental cars or per diem and they have to move to base (SFB or LAS). For those who don't know, instructors here have been informally treated like a TDY base.

Not that I think instructors deserve perks the line pilots don't get just because they chose to serve in the training department. The point is why are they suddenly cutting everyone's perks in the last year. First VBD losing rental cars and long stay hotels, then line pilots having to take bottom shelf Lyft everywhere instead of LL/rental cars, now IPs losing travel options. One would think that TRAVEL is a cheap perk of working for a TRAVEL COMPANY. Being handed a hotel room and rental car to conduct company business was one of the great perks of working here versus a real airline.

Is this typical corporate greed or is something happening behind the scenes? Why are they continuing to tighten the belt and run this place like a company on the verge of bankruptcy when they continue to post impressive profits? Something just doesn't add up.



I see it as business as usual. Allegiant maximizing efficiency at all angles. Nothing surprising here.


LoFly
11-13-2018, 07:30 PM
Do we know who's leaving?

Machaca
11-14-2018, 05:39 AM
Looks like they are hiring instructors, even though the transition is almost finished and they are saying no pilot hiring for the foreseeable future. Rumor is a mass exodus from the training department is about to happen because they are being told no more hotels rental cars or per diem and they have to move to base (SFB or LAS). For those who don't know, instructors here have been informally treated like a TDY base.

Not that I think instructors deserve perks the line pilots don't get just because they chose to serve in the training department. The point is why are they suddenly cutting everyone's perks in the last year. First VBD losing rental cars and long stay hotels, then line pilots having to take bottom shelf Lyft everywhere instead of LL/rental cars, now IPs losing travel options. One would think that TRAVEL is a cheap perk of working for a TRAVEL COMPANY. Being handed a hotel room and rental car to conduct company business was one of the great perks of working here versus a real airline.

Is this typical corporate greed or is something happening behind the scenes? Why are they continuing to tighten the belt and run this place like a company on the verge of bankruptcy when they continue to post impressive profits? Something just doesn't add up.

Aside from the loss of rooms/cars, I was under the impression that the AB instructors were paid a fraction of what the 80 guys were (I stipulate that this is hearsay, I haven't been able to ask an actual instructor) but with the forcing of instructors to live in domicile as indicated above, perhaps they are going to pull the same nonsense they did with the previous dedicated ground school instructors and limit them to 88(ish) hours regardless of how much they work, etc? If you can't make any money at it, what is the point?

j3cub
11-15-2018, 05:38 AM
According to CBA, pay is the same. I doubt MD80 instructors made any more, unless they simply had more events. I'd imagine initially they did, bit as it dwindled down the 320 guys started picking up more work.

Husker75
11-16-2018, 07:10 PM
Who knows why. But if they are expecting a mass exodus and IF theyíre gonna require people to live in base for instructing, then theyíre gonna find themselves in quite a pickle and being forced to hire contractors for the training department.

I had thought of joining the training department, but if itís gonna be nothing but drama, and no perks/incentive then thanx but no thanx.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would they be in a ďpickleĒ? They have an entire training department full of 80 instructors in LAS looking to get their training job back. Plenty of junior people in SFB thatíll take it in a heart beat as well just to get out of a crappy line schedule and check a box for their Delta application. Will we lose a bunch of good instructors, yes. Be in a pickle for instructors, not even close.

Desert Sky
11-16-2018, 11:20 PM
Hopefully we can get some key -80 guys back in the training department with the AB. They would be great assets to the program.

akulahunter
11-17-2018, 07:25 PM
Hopefully we can get some key -80 guys back in the training department with the AB. They would be great assets to the program.

OK, so I'm not going to say that the AB side of training is the world's favorite... But shouldn't we want people teaching the Bus, that know the Bus? (Including the ones we currently have) I don't know a lot of them, and I am sure that they are all great people, but when I go to training I want to learn something or at least feel like the instructor knows as much (if not more) than I do. How are a bunch of new transition peeps going to help make the department better? (other than attitude)

What we need is EXPERIENCED airbus peeps that do not have a terrible, combative, "I'm out to get you" or "I can prove I'm smarter than you" attitude... However we can achieve that, I'm all for it...

Desert Sky
11-18-2018, 06:42 PM
OK, so I'm not going to say that the AB side of training is the world's favorite... But shouldn't we want people teaching the Bus, that know the Bus? (Including the ones we currently have) I don't know a lot of them, and I am sure that they are all great people, but when I go to training I want to learn something or at least feel like the instructor knows as much (if not more) than I do. How are a bunch of new transition peeps going to help make the department better? (other than attitude)



What we need is EXPERIENCED airbus peeps that do not have a terrible, combative, "I'm out to get you" or "I can prove I'm smarter than you" attitude... However we can achieve that, I'm all for it...



Well put. I was referring to the general culture and personalities that would be great additions to the AB side. The AB side, for whatever reason, does have a negative culture. Itís simply frustrating to see. Some of the APDís (not hard to know who Iím referring to) appear to harbor enjoyment out of intimidating pilots.

Machaca
11-19-2018, 06:32 AM
Grist for the mill....rumors abound that the Training Dept is headed for a shutdown a la Jan 2014 after the 25% failure rate for the Aug class...

G4er
11-19-2018, 07:57 AM
We have a train by ridicule, unprofessional, egotistical training department. My first RFT after FCOM showed me this and it has been reinforced each time Iíve went back.

SladeTin
11-19-2018, 08:55 AM
We have a train by ridicule, unprofessional, egotistical training department. My first RFT after FCOM showed me this and it has been reinforced each time Iíve went back.

Interesting. I had one guy for a couple of sim sessions that was like that, but everyone Iíve dealt with since has been fantastic. Iíve heard numerous stories similar to yours though so they must be out there. I guess Iíve been lucky.

ecam
11-19-2018, 09:18 AM
Those of us who have been on the Airbus for a while have always said it. The AB training department is a fiefdom run by people trying to exert authority, power and ego. It had always been a case of "I'm going to prove i'm better/smarter than you" and "Haha you have to get past me if you want to keep your job". Training has always consisted of minutea that's mostly useless online and full of gotcha items. Most pilots I know dread coming to training and treat their job like its a 6 month employment contract because you never know. Most say they studied everything they were told to study then felt like they didn't study or told that. A lot seems to depend on the APD, what kind of day they are having, and whether they think you deserve it or not. It is all way too subjective. We need AQP here. But any reforms will be good. A shutdown by the FAA might bring useful change. Safety is degraded when the training culture is toxic and training feels like a punishment instead of a learning experience. That is what we have right now. Toxic culture.

9easy
11-19-2018, 08:09 PM
It's a pity, because post 2014, the MD80 training department was very consistent, professional, but rigorous when needed. But there was never any big-timing by the instructors or APD. All the times pilots saved the company from disaster on the MD80 pretty much proves that it worked.

sqwkvfr
11-20-2018, 05:40 AM
These negative reports on the training department have not been my experience. I recently completed a long-term training event on the Airbus side and my experience with nearly all of the instructors was very positive.

It has been my experience that the traineeís attitude largely dictates the training experience. My partner and I kept it positive and everything went very well, despite neither of us being perfect.

Machaca
11-20-2018, 12:04 PM
Those of us who have been on the Airbus for a while have always said it. The AB training department is a fiefdom run by people trying to exert authority, power and ego. It had always been a case of "I'm going to prove i'm better/smarter than you" and "Haha you have to get past me if you want to keep your job". Training has always consisted of minutea that's mostly useless online and full of gotcha items. Most pilots I know dread coming to training and treat their job like its a 6 month employment contract because you never know. Most say they studied everything they were told to study then felt like they didn't study or told that. A lot seems to depend on the APD, what kind of day they are having, and whether they think you deserve it or not. It is all way too subjective. We need AQP here. But any reforms will be good. A shutdown by the FAA might bring useful change. Safety is degraded when the training culture is toxic and training feels like a punishment instead of a learning experience. That is what we have right now. Toxic culture.

The AQP necessity pretty much sums up what we see here...I remember when the guy that was supposed to be ginning up the AQP program suddenly became the prime salesman for that idiotic ADAPT nonsense...two failures that continue to plague this company. Apparently, the FCOM nonsense is a reprise on this theme?

j3cub
11-20-2018, 12:45 PM
1) AQP is coming

2) I study and have never felt threatened in a training event

3) I've flown with and heard of folks who fail who are lazy, don't prepare, have a lax attitude, etc etc etc.

4) FAA shutdown over failure rate?! That's laughable. Take a look at some of the names on the training list. I assumed it would be higher than 25%. I know several in that class personally. One who failed said it was a legit bust and purely on him.

Show up prepared, put in the work, do your job right and you won't fail. Simple as that. And I'm pretty sure no one has been fired lately.

JustWatching
11-20-2018, 01:34 PM
To say that our Airbus instructors or examiners are out to get people is ludicrous. While we certainly have some people instructing that have no business instructing and the program in general is chaotic, people do not fail the type ride for any reason other than their own mistakes.

There are certain people, as was alluded to above, that were likely to have issues during training, and they have. There are other people who just have a momentary lapse in judgement or skill and fail the ride. Itís a part 61 ride and requires 100% completion with no retrains. Thatís not on the APD...

Now, we can talk about leadership and have a nice conversation about needed changes.

TBucs
11-20-2018, 04:05 PM
To say that our Airbus instructors or examiners are out to get people is ludicrous. While we certainly have some people instructing that have no business instructing and the program in general is chaotic, people do not fail the type ride for any reason other than their own mistakes.

There are certain people, as was alluded to above, that were likely to have issues during training, and they have. There are other people who just have a momentary lapse in judgement or skill and fail the ride. Itís a part 61 ride and requires 100% completion with no retrains. Thatís not on the APD...

Now, we can talk about leadership and have a nice conversation about needed changes.


Sure. AQP ASAP!!!!!!. I personal have learned more when I was on an AQP program then showing up once a year having to do a check ride. Absolutely NO EXCUSE to not have this now!!! Invest in making pilots better everyday!!!!! With that said Iíve never failed a check ride in my career. Knock on wood.....

belliott
11-20-2018, 05:18 PM
According to CBA, pay is the same. I doubt MD80 instructors made any more, unless they simply had more events. I'd imagine initially they did, bit as it dwindled down the 320 guys started picking up more work.
When I was there the pay was per the CBA however the PCH for a given event differed from the 80 program to the AB. 80 SITs paid 5.0 and an AB SIT paid 3.0... that is where the pay gap existed... may have changed since I left.

We have a train by ridicule, unprofessional, egotistical training department. My first RFT after FCOM showed me this and it has been reinforced each time Iíve went back.
From my personal experience that was certainly not the case... the FCOM transition was difficult for everyone including the instructors... I know myself and others frequently made ourselves available to trainees who asked for extra help. I know that people have and will continue to speak poorly of me since my departure for having held a professional standard when people showed up with Jepps 2 revisions out of date, unshaven and not in business casual attire, and not remotely attempting to use the FCOM flows/procedures. Ego and ridicule have no place in the training atmosphere.

Those of us who have been on the Airbus for a while have always said it. The AB training department is a fiefdom run by people trying to exert authority, power and ego. It had always been a case of "I'm going to prove i'm better/smarter than you" and "Haha you have to get past me if you want to keep your job". Training has always consisted of minutea that's mostly useless online and full of gotcha items. Most pilots I know dread coming to training and treat their job like its a 6 month employment contract because you never know. Most say they studied everything they were told to study then felt like they didn't study or told that. A lot seems to depend on the APD, what kind of day they are having, and whether they think you deserve it or not. It is all way too subjective. We need AQP here. But any reforms will be good. A shutdown by the FAA might bring useful change. Safety is degraded when the training culture is toxic and training feels like a punishment instead of a learning experience. That is what we have right now. Toxic culture.
That wasnít my experience at all... I have had students feel like they didnít study enough (or the right material) and there were a few times when I let trainees know that their knowledge level for their given position was lacking but I donít believe that the majority of the instructors bring toxicity to the training environment. Most of the minutia and ďgotchaísĒ introduced in the lessons werenít there to flaunt that the instructor knew more than a trainee... inversely they were supposed to bring up good talking points/reminders of things we didnít see on a day to day basis... YMMV given the different backgrounds/experience levels of instructors.


What we need is EXPERIENCED airbus peeps that do not have a terrible, combative, "I'm out to get you" or "I can prove I'm smarter than you" attitude... However we can achieve that, I'm all for it...
I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane youíll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.

dawgdriver
11-21-2018, 07:02 AM
Sad to see the perception of training hasn't changed. When I was there the feeling was that training/standards needed to be rigorous and demanding because we were an inexperienced gang operating old, poorly maintained equipment into hazardous locations with garbage support from maintenance, dispatch, management, etc.

Going to a culture so radically different, where training expectations were realistic and well-defined was eery at first and I kept waiting for the shoe to drop. Never happened; no surprises, no stress and failures are virtually unheard of. From what I hear it wasn't always that way and it took AQP to shift the mindset away from a hostile pass/fail culture. Not sure if it was the training or the environment, but the G4 pilots were among the best I ever flew with and saved the company's bacon on way too many occasions. Hopefully you guys get AQP soon and matters improve.

ecam
11-21-2018, 07:58 AM
To say that our Airbus instructors or examiners are out to get people is ludicrous. While we certainly have some people instructing that have no business instructing and the program in general is chaotic, people do not fail the type ride for any reason other than their own mistakes.

There are certain people, as was alluded to above, that were likely to have issues during training, and they have. There are other people who just have a momentary lapse in judgement or skill and fail the ride. Itís a part 61 ride and requires 100% completion with no retrains. Thatís not on the APD...

Now, we can talk about leadership and have a nice conversation about needed changes.

When I was there the pay was per the CBA however the PCH for a given event differed from the 80 program to the AB. 80 SITs paid 5.0 and an AB SIT paid 3.0... that is where the pay gap existed... may have changed since I left.


From my personal experience that was certainly not the case... the FCOM transition was difficult for everyone including the instructors... I know myself and others frequently made ourselves available to trainees who asked for extra help. I know that people have and will continue to speak poorly of me since my departure for having held a professional standard when people showed up with Jepps 2 revisions out of date, unshaven and not in business casual attire, and not remotely attempting to use the FCOM flows/procedures. Ego and ridicule have no place in the training atmosphere.


That wasnít my experience at all... I have had students feel like they didnít study enough (or the right material) and there were a few times when I let trainees know that their knowledge level for their given position was lacking but I donít believe that the majority of the instructors bring toxicity to the training environment. Most of the minutia and ďgotchaísĒ introduced in the lessons werenít there to flaunt that the instructor knew more than a trainee... inversely they were supposed to bring up good talking points/reminders of things we didnít see on a day to day basis... YMMV given the different backgrounds/experience levels of instructors.


I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane youíll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.

I don't think individual instructors and AQPs are out to get people for personal vendettas of some sort. I think they are trying hard to impress their bosses and keep their cushy training department jobs by being hardasses.

I've said this before and got a warm cup of shut the frick up from you guys but the problem is flight standards management. All of the problems with training here come from the top down. It is run by a bunch of guys with very little real world flying experience who think they are big fish in a little pond with big chips on their shoulders from past career issues. They have an attitude of prove yourself or get out when it should be let's make sure you're proficient on things you don't see often. They seem to like the power trip from holding a pilots pay check hostage. They write the curriculum instructors and APDs must follow. For example, doing engine failures during a go around this year on the PC. It is an important thing to know how to do and even practice in the sim but that should be training not jeopardy. It is nothing but ball busting. To claim we need to be tested on that under jeopardy is abusive. We could also talk about the APDs expectation that everyone should have rote memorized the 30 or so bulletins modifying our procedures. Asking specific numbers from memory on 30 temporary bulletins from is abusive. Or how about the harping this year on standard callouts? Everyone loves someone treating them like a child in the debrief because they said FL XXX blue instead of "set blue". Or same for hundreds of other unnecessary callouts we do at this airline that the others don't.

Yes our training culture here sucks. We test on things that that don't matter to 99% of every day line flying and beat people up over the 1% they never see. And it's not urban legend. Great pilots are failing check rides here over stupid ball busting gotcha hahaha crap. I feel lucky that I haven't yet. If we are going to stay on the archaic check ride system, then PCs should be plain vanilla. Like a type ride, except ability to retrain twice. Just test on the basics that are required by the FAA and put all the fancy stuff on the training day. That's reasonable.

AQP would fix all of this because it tests on line flying and real scenarios with objective grading not the subjective grading we currently have. But I will not hold my breath on AQP before I retire because the people I mentioned above would have to give up too much power and control.

G4er
11-21-2018, 08:58 AM
On my RFT I literally got yelled at for calling for a control check before taxiing. It was the first RFT after the 7000 pages from FCOM came out that I self studied. The technique part of the FCOM said it was CA discretion to do it before taxiing and I thought we would have a short taxi. I pointed out in black and white in the book where it said I could do it. Got yelled at some more. I told him I didnít like his tone and that to calm down. Yelled some more. All he would have had to say because we were in a training environment was. ďHey, we have noticed allot of pilots calling for this and it isnít supposed to become SOP, I understand that it is CA discretion...Ē
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys Iíve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed ďinstructorĒ where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....

G4er
11-21-2018, 09:05 AM
Iíve never failed anything either, and if anything overstudy. Just very frustrated with the training, I feel the should just call it the Checking Department. Check to make sure you have self studied the 7000 pages I have yet to get training on.

JustWatching
11-21-2018, 01:43 PM
I don't think individual instructors and AQPs are out to get people for personal vendettas of some sort. I think they are trying hard to impress their bosses and keep their cushy training department jobs by being hardasses.

I've said this before and got a warm cup of shut the frick up from you guys but the problem is flight standards management. All of the problems with training here come from the top down. It is run by a bunch of guys with very little real world flying experience who think they are big fish in a little pond with big chips on their shoulders from past career issues. They have an attitude of prove yourself or get out when it should be let's make sure you're proficient on things you don't see often. They seem to like the power trip from holding a pilots pay check hostage. They write the curriculum instructors and APDs must follow. For example, doing engine failures during a go around this year on the PC. It is an important thing to know how to do and even practice in the sim but that should be training not jeopardy. It is nothing but ball busting. To claim we need to be tested on that under jeopardy is abusive. We could also talk about the APDs expectation that everyone should have rote memorized the 30 or so bulletins modifying our procedures. Asking specific numbers from memory on 30 temporary bulletins from is abusive. Or how about the harping this year on standard callouts? Everyone loves someone treating them like a child in the debrief because they said FL XXX blue instead of "set blue". Or same for hundreds of other unnecessary callouts we do at this airline that the others don't.

Yes our training culture here sucks. We test on things that that don't matter to 99% of every day line flying and beat people up over the 1% they never see. And it's not urban legend. Great pilots are failing check rides here over stupid ball busting gotcha hahaha crap. I feel lucky that I haven't yet. If we are going to stay on the archaic check ride system, then PCs should be plain vanilla. Like a type ride, except ability to retrain twice. Just test on the basics that are required by the FAA and put all the fancy stuff on the training day. That's reasonable.

AQP would fix all of this because it tests on line flying and real scenarios with objective grading not the subjective grading we currently have. But I will not hold my breath on AQP before I retire because the people I mentioned above would have to give up too jmuch power and control.

I donít disagree with anything youíve said, but Iím not sure if the problem lies with Flight Standards / Flight training upper management or rests solely on the fleet manager and training captain.

JustWatching
11-21-2018, 01:44 PM
On my RFT I literally got yelled at for calling for a control check before taxiing. It was the first RFT after the 7000 pages from FCOM came out that I self studied. The technique part of the FCOM said it was CA discretion to do it before taxiing and I thought we would have a short taxi. I pointed out in black and white in the book where it said I could do it. Got yelled at some more. I told him I didnít like his tone and that to calm down. Yelled some more. All he would have had to say because we were in a training environment was. ďHey, we have noticed allot of pilots calling for this and it isnít supposed to become SOP, I understand that it is CA discretion...Ē
Totally unprofessional.
That is how the training department is from a lot of guys Iíve talked to.
One guy told me about turning on the LS buttons for take off. Again it is in the technique manual. Yelled at, showed ďinstructorĒ where it is in the book. Yelled at, demeaned some more...
Many more stories could be shared....

Complete crap... I would have shut the session down and walked out. No one yells at me.

akulahunter
11-21-2018, 04:11 PM
I think you will find if you prepare accordingly for each session, keep a positive attitude, and an open mind to learning a new language/airplane youíll do just fine. I think there are some quite brilliant instructors who want nothing more than to see you succeed. The instructors are your best training advocate... if you put forth the effort they will give you all the help you need to be successful.

If anything I am over prepared and I believe you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say I have anything but an excellent attitude. I love my job and try to make the best of whatever situation I have been faced with, many of which were MUCH rougher than anything encountered here. I have never failed an event in my life (also knock on wood) and have not had any issues, whatsoever, in training at any level.

With that being said... It has definitely not been my experience that the instructors (as a whole) want nothing more than for me to succeed. If anything, most have been much more interested in minutia or adherence to whatever the training flavor of the day is than actually trying to teach me anything. In initial Bus training I found myself walking the instructor through system schematics and actually calling the training captain out on something he was teaching that was incorrect (and after arguing with me and others in the class for 10 minutes came back and admitted he was wrong).

I believe (from a small portion of my experience and a preponderance of stories from the line) we have a handful of exceptional guys/gals in the training department who have solid knowledge, good attitudes and want the students to succeed. We also have a large group of peeps who are either combative, straight up Dbags, have no propensity for instructing, no experience or are so ingrained in just doing sims that they forget that you don't deal with the minutia everyday and are flabbergasted that you wouldn't know something that they see multiple times a week....

ecam
11-22-2018, 06:52 AM
I donít disagree with anything youíve said, but Iím not sure if the problem lies with Flight Standards / Flight training upper management or rests solely on the fleet manager and training captain.

Completely agree. They are who I was referring to.

Tyler H G4
11-22-2018, 09:47 AM
Good morning,

This forum thing is new to me but as it keeps being brought to my attention, I figured perhaps its a great way to open new lines of communication.

There is a lot of information in here so I will attempt to address as much as I can before the family gives me the sideways glare. The perception of the training department is bothersome, so many things have improved and yet there is so much left to work on, as it should be. The day you stop striving for better is the day you should walk away. I keep reading that AQP will be the solution and as a training system it is a great one, however, it is highly dependent on the calibration of check pilots and instructors; Without them the program will most certainly fail. Ecam, AQP will be here, and rest assured it is not delayed on the accounts of my alleged quest for power. Most of the comments in here refer to issues with the people, not the program. My concern with this is the feedback I get on a daily basis is how great the instructors are. Instructors "yelling during an RFT", APD's "out to get people" have not been brought to my attention. There are always two sides of a story and the point is, if this is happening let me hear your side through official channels. Let's look in to the situation so we can correct it and keep working towards what we all want. It does not matter where we are today, or where we want to go, everyone deserves to show up to training and be treated like a professional. I strongly believe that we have a fantastic group of instructors and check airman who are passionate about teaching and truly care about this company and its pilot group. That being said, if there needs to be a re-calibration of expectations, then please step up and let me know the when, where, and who. Be part of the solution and although this is a great place to vent, it doesn't drive change or help fix anything.

Finally, I want to state that I am proud of this pilot group, I agree that the G4 crew members are some of the best in the industry and I am thankful and humbled to be associated with them. If anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so at any time. I would like to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, enjoy your families, if you are flying be safe and as Mr. Burgundy would say, "keep it classy Allegiant".

Thank you

tom11011
11-22-2018, 04:23 PM
Might be best to start recording sessions.

ecam
11-23-2018, 07:29 AM
Well well looks like we trolled management out.

Now today several minions will be tasked with trying to find out who all of us are in real life. Enjoy your next training event gentlemen.

JustWatching
11-23-2018, 04:28 PM
Well well looks like we trolled management out.

Now today several minions will be tasked with trying to find out who all of us are in real life. Enjoy your next training event gentlemen.

Wow... Once again you prove yourself to be a tool. The man was asking for information on a subject that is extremely important to both sides. You just want a one sided b!tch session. Enough already. Provide something constructive or go away.

captjns
11-23-2018, 04:57 PM
No matter the airline... itís training department is a living entity with a dynamic changes. Training will not improve without surveys being completed after a training event.

Itís important that one be part of a solution rather than part of a perceived or in some cases a real problem. Pilot meetings are valid venues to bring by individuals who have concerns of addressing such issues with their chief pilots, if they are in fear of reprisals.

tyler durden
11-23-2018, 05:20 PM
At least this manager identified himself by name. Ballsy/class act. Not surprised, straight shooter.

ecam
11-24-2018, 06:00 AM
Wow... Once again you prove yourself to be a tool. The man was asking for information on a subject that is extremely important to both sides. You just want a one sided b!tch session. Enough already. Provide something constructive or go away.

There you go again throwing people out of a house you don't own because you don't like what they said about someone other than you.

Kind of a tool move there.

And if you don't think they really do research us who post here, go talk to Rory or any number of pilots who have been called on the carpet for posts on this site.

JustWatching
11-24-2018, 06:23 AM
There you go again throwing people out of a house you don't own because you don't like what they said about someone other than you.

Kind of a tool move there.

And if you don't think they really do research us who post here, go talk to Rory or any number of pilots who have been called on the carpet for posts on this site.

Youíre completely missing the point..... again.

Yes, they know who you (we) are. This site is not anonymous. Knowing that, you shouldnít be calling the Dir of Training a tool when he asks for honest feedback.

ecam
11-24-2018, 07:02 AM
Youíre completely missing the point..... again.

Yes, they know who you (we) are. This site is not anonymous. Knowing that, you shouldnít be calling the Dir of Training a tool when he asks for honest feedback.

I never said he was a tool. You said i am a tool. I said i couldn't believe we trolled management out and that I wouldn't be surprised if they were looking us up and would contact us.

Reading and comprehension is important. You loseÖ.. again.

ecam
11-24-2018, 07:21 AM
Good morning,

This forum thing is new to me but as it keeps being brought to my attention, I figured perhaps its a great way to open new lines of communication.

There is a lot of information in here so I will attempt to address as much as I can before the family gives me the sideways glare. The perception of the training department is bothersome, so many things have improved and yet there is so much left to work on, as it should be. The day you stop striving for better is the day you should walk away. I keep reading that AQP will be the solution and as a training system it is a great one, however, it is highly dependent on the calibration of check pilots and instructors; Without them the program will most certainly fail. Ecam, AQP will be here, and rest assured it is not delayed on the accounts of my alleged quest for power. Most of the comments in here refer to issues with the people, not the program. My concern with this is the feedback I get on a daily basis is how great the instructors are. Instructors "yelling during an RFT", APD's "out to get people" have not been brought to my attention. There are always two sides of a story and the point is, if this is happening let me hear your side through official channels. Let's look in to the situation so we can correct it and keep working towards what we all want. It does not matter where we are today, or where we want to go, everyone deserves to show up to training and be treated like a professional. I strongly believe that we have a fantastic group of instructors and check airman who are passionate about teaching and truly care about this company and its pilot group. That being said, if there needs to be a re-calibration of expectations, then please step up and let me know the when, where, and who. Be part of the solution and although this is a great place to vent, it doesn't drive change or help fix anything.

Finally, I want to state that I am proud of this pilot group, I agree that the G4 crew members are some of the best in the industry and I am thankful and humbled to be associated with them. If anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so at any time. I would like to wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving, enjoy your families, if you are flying be safe and as Mr. Burgundy would say, "keep it classy Allegiant".

Thank you

Thanks for joining us. I hope you take these comments to heart and work on the problems many have brought up with the training culture instead of blowing them off and writing us off as miscreants. I have nothing against you personally, and in fact, I wasn't even referring to you when I talked about problem children in flight standards management. I think you do a decent job and care.

Captainbfv
11-24-2018, 07:36 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181124/f121f315372c5ab2e406e0fb4f8106fd.gif


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

angle of attack
12-13-2018, 11:02 AM
From what I've seen, the contract guys do a lot better job than our line pilot instructors.

dutch rudder
12-13-2018, 06:35 PM
From what I've seen, the contract guys do a lot better job than our line pilot instructors.

What are you smoking?

9easy
12-13-2018, 06:49 PM
What are you smoking?

Some of them still think they are working at their previous airline and are just keeping themselves busy into their golden years, in my opinion.

Beretta01
12-13-2018, 06:54 PM
From what I've seen, the contract guys do a lot better job than our line pilot instructors.

First post? There's no way you're on the seniority list.

akulahunter
12-13-2018, 07:02 PM
From what I've seen, the contract guys do a lot better job than our line pilot instructors.

Skeptical about you actually working here. However, I think what you meant to say was that a few of the new(erish) (less experienced instructors) should not be in the position they are in....

ecam
12-14-2018, 07:39 AM
It's funny. My buddies at legacy American are now going to CLT for training and getting the former Airways instructors. They have the same complaints we have about our contract guys. Short patience, superiority, inconsistency, unreasonable goals, lack of actual teaching. There must have been a terrible training culture at US Air. Where most of our contract guys came from.

This company really has no excuse at this point to be using contract instructors. I'm sure there are plenty of seniority list pilots interested and qualified for the job. Many have training experience all the way up to APD at previous airlines. The country club mentality in the training department here needs to stop.

angle of attack
12-14-2018, 11:15 AM
First post? There's no way you're on the seniority list.

Take a look at the Jan senority list. Im somewhere from number 1 to 879.

I went through the Airbus course twice AOM and FCOM. Had really good training with both guys who use the stick. They had good experience and were far better than the young bucks running around right now.

They actually knew how an Airbus is suppose to be flown and don't just quote page 7,001 from the FCOM.



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