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View Full Version : Kalitta, The Bad


Puck Hawg
11-16-2018, 04:11 AM
Iíve got a class date offer at K4, and Iíve read a lot of good stuff on here about Kalitta. Iím currently at a regional, with lots of time, but canít seem to get a call anywhere. Iím over commuting, and 13 days off a month (even after 10+ months at my current regional). Again, Iíve read a lot of ďthe goodĒ about Kalitta, but havenít read much negative. There has to be some. What are the ďbadĒ aspects of K4?

Thanks in advance!


dynap09
11-16-2018, 04:47 AM
If you are having trouble getting calls and looking for cargo spots you might try ABX. Quick note that Kalitta has home basing along with Omni / ATI etc if you don't like commute stuff.

Another question you might as is how does Kalitta compare to the other companies you've gotten an an offer from.

zerozero
11-16-2018, 05:08 AM
My advice, do not "try" ABX, Atlas or Southern.

Those are sure to disappoint in the short term. Way too much labor unrest right now and you'll be jumping into the middle of smoldering war between the union and company. NOT FUN.

In the short term, yes, Kalitta has the best deal. Relatively peaceful labor relations with their new contract, short upgrades, lots of expansion. What's not to like at this point?

The long term picture at Kalitta however is a little foggy. It's a privately owned company and the owner is very old with no clear (at least not publicly) plan for his succession.

I think if you're looking for a long term career at a Legacy or FedEx or UPS, then Kalitta would be a good place for a couple years to pump up your resume.

Keep all those apps updated as retirements industry wide continue to ramp up until 2023. Still lots of hiring to be done.


742Dash
11-16-2018, 06:16 AM
I am not at K4, but am on the 74 in ACMI.

This ACMI world is not like flying a schedule that Delta/American/United had nailed down three months ago. It is not like flying into stations that work 5 of your flights a day.

The schedule is jello being nailed to a wall. The quality of ground support varies from excellent (Japan) to awful (Africa). You will fly in areas where ATC could care less if you die, as long as they have your tail number for billing purposes. You may find yourself turning off all your lights for descent and landing, and I do mean all of them.

And you will see and do things that no one flying for a Legacy will ever see or do. You will begin to speak an aviation dialect that your friends at conventional airlines will not understand.

Some people love it and thrive, others hate it. But understand that it is what it is.

How adventurous are you? How bored do you get flying your current schedule? When things don't go the way that they should are you still mad/frustrated about it 2 hours later? Do you like having a FA, or does the idea of making your own coffee and taking a [short] walkabout in the upper deck when you want to stretch appeal to you? Can you still fly a good airplane in jeans and a sweatshirt while your uniform is on a hanger in the back?

One man's wine is another man's poison.

Prettywhacked1
11-16-2018, 06:20 AM
Kind of like that twinge when you hear a WO opine about their “educational background”.....

HercDriver130
11-16-2018, 06:49 AM
Iíve got a class date offer at K4, and Iíve read a lot of good stuff on here about Kalitta. Iím currently at a regional, with lots of time, but canít seem to get a call anywhere. Iím over commuting, and 13 days off a month (even after 10+ months at my current regional). Again, Iíve read a lot of ďthe goodĒ about Kalitta, but havenít read much negative. There has to be some. What are the ďbadĒ aspects of K4?

Thanks in advance!

The bad.... hum.. the scheduling department has been in constant disarray for years.... mainly due to huge turnover and exponential growth. Work / duty rules are fairly weak. ex... my last trip of the month... was this...

CVG-NGO....14.4 hours... followed by abosolute min rest of 11 hours behind the door. Followed by NGO-HKG(4.6 hours), 6+ hour sit for cargo, then HKG-ANC(9.9 hours) all in one duty day.

Bottom line occasionally... you will do some LONG LONG days... commercial DHing is on the increase due to short staffing. more later

myoface
11-16-2018, 07:19 AM
Letís not forget that one is no longer allowed to sleep in the bunk naked.

Bad #2: sometimes the greedy capts take all the pound cake.

TiredSoul
11-16-2018, 07:31 AM
I am not at K4, but am on the 74 in ACMI.

This ACMI world is not like flying a schedule that Delta/American/United had nailed down three months ago. It is not like flying into stations that work 5 of your flights a day.

The schedule is jello being nailed to a wall. The quality of ground support varies from excellent (Japan) to awful (Africa). You will fly in areas where ATC could care less if you die, as long as they have your tail number for billing purposes. You may find yourself turning off all your lights for descent and landing, and I do mean all of them.

And you will see and do things that no one flying for a Legacy will ever see or do. You will begin to speak an aviation dialect that your friends at conventional airlines will not understand.

Some people love it and thrive, others hate it. But understand that it is what it is.

How adventurous are you? How bored do you get flying your current schedule? When things don't go the way that they should are you still mad/frustrated about it 2 hours later? Do you like having a FA, or does the idea of making your own coffee and taking a [short] walkabout in the upper deck when you want to stretch appeal to you? Can you still fly a good airplane in jeans and a sweatshirt while your uniform is on a hanger in the back?

One man's wine is another man's poison.

Nailed it.
Great post.
:D

Locke
11-16-2018, 07:52 AM
This wonít apply until you upgrade, but we only have flight followers, not dispatchers since Connie doesnít want to pay a higher wage. Because of that thereís no skin in the game when it comes to flight plans. Sometimes it works out great, while other times theyíll ask you to do something completely illegal and you have to tell them to pound sand.

No Land 3
11-16-2018, 07:57 AM
If you hate the pax world, the airport appreciation, commuting, crash pads, and cargo that talks back to you, you may just end up loving K4.
It is good that you are experiencing pax flying first, will allow you to appreciate this place more while others will ***** because they have this, "Catch Me if You Can" idea about the pax world, but no experience with it.

Stimpy the Kat
11-16-2018, 08:12 AM
Not necessarily a " Bad " thing...But -

Question: Ask yourself... "Can I give up all control over what happens to me for 16 days in a row no matter how ridiculous, inefficient, illogical and downright stupid it might seem without getting upset about it ?"

If you need structure, sanity, and/or schedules you will have a difficult time.

Effectively, there is no such thing as Schedules, or Scheduling, for that matter.

"Jello nailed to the wall" as mentioned above.

On the other hand, if you CAN go with the "flow" ( think cascading, never ending Wall of Feces ) for two weeks plus at a click.. you will really enjoy it.

Especially when they lose you, without an airplane or a Crew, in Riga, Latvia for 9 days in the summer and you have to sit in the outdoor Cafe's watching all the Super Model East European Women in their summer dresses while downing cold beverages at exceptionally good prices.

(Although, to the money hungry, the above is a nightmare scenario so, your perceptions and mileage may vary.)


:)

Good Luck !


STK

Hogcapt
11-16-2018, 08:15 AM
Bad #2: sometimes the greedy capts take all the pound cake.[/QUOTE]

Definitely have to be in the ACMI world to catch that reference. Ha ha. Five towns forever....:)

Puck Hawg
11-16-2018, 08:41 AM
Thanks guys! 14+ years here at my regional have me jaded right now. I couldnít care less about what they did with my 16 days on the road, as long as I a) donít have to commute and b) have my two weeks off to look forward to at the end.

Iíve been offered a 747 class, but hear that 767 CA is 10 months. How much different is the 767 flying at K4?

Thanks again.

crapper2
11-16-2018, 09:00 AM
This wonít apply until you upgrade, but we only have flight followers, not dispatchers since Connie doesnít want to pay a higher wage. Because of that thereís no skin in the game when it comes to flight plans. Sometimes it works out great, while other times theyíll ask you to do something completely illegal and you have to tell them to pound sand.

Fact. The department is 5 flight followers/dispatchers short. The past three new hires have left for different airlines in some cases less than 6month on the job. Training and working conditions need to be improved before we will see more consistent flight plans and better overal quality. The revolving door needs to stop if we want to be a big boy airline and have more support out on the line.

Cujo665
11-16-2018, 09:44 AM
If you hate the pax world, the airport appreciation, commuting, crash pads, and cargo that talks back to you, you may just end up loving K4.
It is good that you are experiencing pax flying first, will allow you to appreciate this place more while others will ***** because they have this, "Catch Me if You Can" idea about the pax world, but no experience with it.

This ^^^^^^

jhugz
11-16-2018, 01:46 PM
I want to preface this post w/ I'm very happy here at K4, I'm only leaving if FedEx or UPS calls and maybe a legacy. You wanted the negatives and here they are IMHO:

-Retirement leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully it's a priority for the next contract because to attract and retain young talent it needs to change.
-Work rules are weak, not awful, but could use some better language in certain areas w/ QoL improvements on the next contract.
-It's ACMI, they're upgrading like crazy now but tomorrow they can be furloughing if we lose a contract or oil skyrockets. That's any job in aviation, but ACMI is especially vulnerable.
-If you're on the 74 side, fighting w/ Travel & Scheduling over CBA complaint Travel/Pairings can be annoying.
-Training leaves a lot to be desired...

Again these are strictly the negatives, and the positives really outweigh these issues. It's a great job and I'm happy to be here.

No Land 3
11-16-2018, 06:16 PM
Thanks guys! 14+ years here at my regional have me jaded right now. I couldnít care less about what they did with my 16 days on the road, as long as I a) donít have to commute and b) have my two weeks off to look forward to at the end.

Iíve been offered a 747 class, but hear that 767 CA is 10 months. How much different is the 767 flying at K4?

Thanks again.

Vastly different, take the 74 class. You can always upgrade onto the 76 later

Blackhawk
11-16-2018, 07:10 PM
Not necessarily a " Bad " thing...But -

Question: Ask yourself... "Can I give up all control over what happens to me for 16 days in a row no matter how ridiculous, inefficient, illogical and downright stupid it might seem without getting upset about it ?"

If you need structure, sanity, and/or schedules you will have a difficult time.

Effectively, there is no such thing as Schedules, or Scheduling, for that matter.

"Jello nailed to the wall" as mentioned above.

On the other hand, if you CAN go with the "flow" ( think cascading, never ending Wall of Feces ) for two weeks plus at a click.. you will really enjoy it.

Especially when they lose you, without an airplane or a Crew, in Riga, Latvia for 9 days in the summer and you have to sit in the outdoor Cafe's watching all the Super Model East European Women in their summer dresses while downing cold beverages at exceptionally good prices.

(Although, to the money hungry, the above is a nightmare scenario so, your perceptions and mileage may vary.)


:)

Good Luck !


STK

I never understood the pilots who got upset Day 1 of a 4 day because the schedule got jacked up. I mean if we had a sweet overnight lined up it's a bummer. Day 4, yeah. I want to get home. But I saw guys lose their minds due to a 1-hour taxi in LGA day 1. Who cares??? We're paid by the minute.
Of course, they were normally the same guys who wouldn't lift a finger if the operation was not working perfectly and take a 3-hour delay.

Blackhawk
11-16-2018, 08:41 PM
Thanks guys! 14+ years here at my regional have me jaded right now. I couldnít care less about what they did with my 16 days on the road, as long as I a) donít have to commute and b) have my two weeks off to look forward to at the end.

Iíve been offered a 747 class, but hear that 767 CA is 10 months. How much different is the 767 flying at K4?

Thanks again.

Join us on the Dark Side.

Locke
11-17-2018, 02:19 AM
Thanks guys! 14+ years here at my regional have me jaded right now. I couldnít care less about what they did with my 16 days on the road, as long as I a) donít have to commute and b) have my two weeks off to look forward to at the end.

Iíve been offered a 747 class, but hear that 767 CA is 10 months. How much different is the 767 flying at K4?

Thanks again.

Night and day dude. 76 is hub turns domestic flying. 74 is cruising the world. Unless you have a serious aversion to jet lag, go 74

Colt45
11-17-2018, 03:14 AM
Thanks guys! 14+ years here at my regional have me jaded right now. I couldnít care less about what they did with my 16 days on the road, as long as I a) donít have to commute and b) have my two weeks off to look forward to at the end.

Iíve been offered a 747 class, but hear that 767 CA is 10 months. How much different is the 767 flying at K4?

Thanks again.

747 is a much easier job for a lot more pay. Who cares about sitting left seat, I know of two Captains on the 76 who constantly talk/joke about bidding back to the 74 as an FO! :eek::D:D

CFin
11-17-2018, 03:52 AM
How hard would it be to hold MSP overnights on the 76 consistently? Or am I thinking too conventionally from a scheduling standpoint?

Riverside
11-17-2018, 04:43 AM
How hard would it be to hold MSP overnights on the 76 consistently? Or am I thinking too conventionally from a scheduling standpoint?

I would suggest reading page 2 again.

Checkers21
11-17-2018, 04:59 AM
How hard would it be to hold MSP overnights on the 76 consistently? Or am I thinking too conventionally from a scheduling standpoint?

On the 767 you actually kind of stick to your schedule, unlike the 747 side. While there is a lot to be desired from crew scheduling, things are slowly improving on the 767. So as long as youíre able to get awarded a line with MSP overnights, Iíd say you could count on getting them. Of course this is still ACMI, with a scheduling department whom only know ACMI. So be prepared and best bet is to not let scheduling know youíd prefer MSP overnights. Just saying....

Colt45
11-17-2018, 05:06 AM
How hard would it be to hold MSP overnights on the 76 consistently? Or am I thinking too conventionally from a scheduling standpoint?

FWIW the MSP overnight, like most 767 overnights is so short you basically eat and go straight to bed.

mukalel
11-17-2018, 06:39 AM
[QUOTE=Blackhawk;2709770]Join us on the Dark Side.[/QUOTE

Didnt even know they gave you an option really... can you tell them you want to bypass the offered class for another equipment?

Blackhawk
11-17-2018, 06:44 AM
[QUOTE=Blackhawk;2709770]Join us on the Dark Side.[/QUOTE

Didnt even know they gave you an option really... can you tell them you want to bypass the offered class for another equipment?

I just meant joining us at K4. They did ask me a preference when I interviewed. I told them I wanted the 747 but would take what was offered.

sky jet
11-17-2018, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE=Blackhawk;2709770]Join us on the Dark Side.[/QUOTE

Didnt even know they gave you an option really... can you tell them you want to bypass the offered class for another equipment?

Why would you ever give up seniority for equipment? In a short period of time (In the big picture) you bid the equipment you want and take the seniority with you. I hear we are running classes of 20 or more. In a company with less than 600 pilots 20 or 30 numbers is a lot to give up.

Mundergun
11-17-2018, 10:53 AM
Does anyone know when K4 will start taking applications again? I think Iíve heard possibly January?

East Aspen Dash
11-17-2018, 10:56 AM
Does anyone know when K4 will start taking applications again? I think Iíve heard possibly January?

My recommendation just got the call on Thursday, so it seems that the window is opening again. And said pilot is not ASA, so it must be open to the rest of the world.

Blackhawk
11-17-2018, 11:34 AM
My recommendation just got the call on Thursday, so it seems that the window is opening again. And said pilot is not ASA, so it must be open to the rest of the world.

Even in current classes there are some nonASA mixed in, though they are the minority.

MrFriendly7
11-17-2018, 11:56 AM
what are the minimums? 1500 hrs and a ATP? :D

MoarAlpha
11-17-2018, 12:02 PM
what are the minimums? 1500 hrs and a ATP? :D

The published mins are:

2500 Total Time
1500 Turbine
500 Turbine PIC

Im not sure I have seen/heard of anyone in class with less than 5000TT. I asked the same question probably 6 months ago and that's my conclusion.

CFin
11-17-2018, 12:05 PM
On the 767 you actually kind of stick to your schedule, unlike the 747 side. While there is a lot to be desired from crew scheduling, things are slowly improving on the 767. So as long as youíre able to get awarded a line with MSP overnights, Iíd say you could count on getting them. Of course this is still ACMI, with a scheduling department whom only know ACMI. So be prepared and best bet is to not let scheduling know youíd prefer MSP overnights. Just saying....

Thank you much!

MrFriendly7
11-17-2018, 12:10 PM
The published mins are:

2500 Total Time
1500 Turbine
500 Turbine PIC

Im not sure I have seen/heard of anyone in class with less than 5000TT. I asked the same question probably 6 months ago and that's my conclusion.

Thanks for the info bud

Ghost Pilot
11-17-2018, 03:42 PM
In the past it was said they were looking for 5000 hours, true international experience, and wide body time. If you met two of the above you would be a definite candidate. If you only met one then you would need to be very strong in that area, or have something else in your background that would indicate a unique suitability to operate in our environment. This was back when I came in under the old contract when slots werenít as competitive as they are now, so take it for what itís worth.

Mundergun
11-17-2018, 07:39 PM
Does military aviation do much to help? I should clarify.... Military helicopter time which is obviously not as valuable military fixed wing (potentially worthless depending on the company)

sky jet
11-17-2018, 09:30 PM
Does military aviation do much to help? I should clarify.... Military helicopter time which is obviously not as valuable military fixed wing (potentially worthless depending on the company)

I have flown with some pilots here whose largest percentage of flight time was in helicopters. Often the rest of their time was in smaller turboprops. You have to play to win. Fill out the application, try to network and give it a shot.

55555
11-18-2018, 05:07 AM
How do you apply these days? Seems theyíre not accepting apps through the website & the apc link doesnít work.

Locke
11-18-2018, 05:43 AM
How do you apply these days? Seems theyíre not accepting apps through the website & the apc link doesnít work.

You donít. The window for new apps opens at the beginning of the year. The people being called were the guys that were already phase 2.

shroomwell
11-18-2018, 06:02 AM
Does military aviation do much to help? I should clarify.... Military helicopter time which is obviously not as valuable military fixed wing (potentially worthless depending on the company)


I've flown with several guys here over the years who had primarily military rotor time, and maybe some turboprop time like King Airs, or possibly some Herc time. They have all been really nice to fly with and have done really well.

flyguy37
11-18-2018, 12:17 PM
I made a similar post to this a few months back and it wasn't supported by K4 cheerleaders but I think its important to gather different viewpoints when people are making big decisions partially based off information gathered from message boards.

First I believe K4 is a great company with great people and the employee relations currently are better than any other I have experienced. They are having a lot of growing pains but they are working at it. Scheduling and travel logistics leave much to be desired but once a problem is escalated it is usually resolved in a timely and fair manner.

The job is enjoyable. You fly with some great guys and gals and do your leg or 2 and go to the hotel. Not much BS usually. The job is interesting but despite the occasional ad-hoc we fly to the same 20 airports 90 percent of the time.

The bad is the math that a new hire has to face. Currently there are 560ish pilots on property counting guys in training. The next several classes are full with ASA guys and others so anybody applying and interviewing now could find themselves at the bottom of the list when and if the music stops. When does the music stop? No one really knows. The last two 747s are coming on line soon but there is strong talk of two of our current 747s being parked or at least pickled until next peak. A few more 767s and one 777 are in queue as well. The obvious wild card is the 777 program. It could end up being a small program or we could get a CMI deal with DHL or others and the company growth would continue.

Also everybody now is making great money and breaking guarantee with ample overtime opportunities (at least in the 747) but when things slow down and we catch up on training one needs to be prepared to live off guarantee.


I say all this to say just because there are 12 month upgrades right now K4 has hired so many people in the last few years that it would be tough for upgrades under 2 years to continue as more and more are brought on and the growth slows down. There is very little attrition (a good sign in a way) and a relatively young workforce. Not a deal breaker really since most need a few years to prepare for captain anyway and the FO pay isn't horrible. It should just be factored in to one's decision making. I have spent a lot of time on the bottom of seniority lists and would hate for someone to leave a decent stable gig to be on the bottom of a list in a notoriously fickle segment of the aviation industry.


Just my opinion and I hope I am totally wrong and we get 100 more airplanes and hire 16 every 3 weeks forever.

No Land 3
11-18-2018, 01:09 PM
I made a similar post to this a few months back and it wasn't supported by K4 cheerleaders but I think its important to gather different viewpoints when people are making big decisions partially based off information gathered from message boards.

First I believe K4 is a great company with great people and the employee relations currently are better than any other I have experienced. They are having a lot of growing pains but they are working at it. Scheduling and travel logistics leave much to be desired but once a problem is escalated it is usually resolved in a timely and fair manner.

The job is enjoyable. You fly with some great guys and gals and do your leg or 2 and go to the hotel. Not much BS usually. The job is interesting but despite the occasional ad-hoc we fly to the same 20 airports 90 percent of the time.

The bad is the math that a new hire has to face. Currently there are 560ish pilots on property counting guys in training. The next several classes are full with ASA guys and others so anybody applying and interviewing now could find themselves at the bottom of the list when and if the music stops. When does the music stop? No one really knows. The last two 747s are coming on line soon but there is strong talk of two of our current 747s being parked or at least pickled until next peak. A few more 767s and one 777 are in queue as well. The obvious wild card is the 777 program. It could end up being a small program or we could get a CMI deal with DHL or others and the company growth would continue.

Also everybody now is making great money and breaking guarantee with ample overtime opportunities (at least in the 747) but when things slow down and we catch up on training one needs to be prepared to live off guarantee.


I say all this to say just because there are 12 month upgrades right now K4 has hired so many people in the last few years that it would be tough for upgrades under 2 years to continue as more and more are brought on and the growth slows down. There is very little attrition (a good sign in a way) and a relatively young workforce. Not a deal breaker really since most need a few years to prepare for captain anyway and the FO pay isn't horrible. It should just be factored in to one's decision making. I have spent a lot of time on the bottom of seniority lists and would hate for someone to leave a decent stable gig to be on the bottom of a list in a notoriously fickle segment of the aviation industry.


Just my opinion and I hope I am totally wrong and we get 100 more airplanes and hire 16 every 3 weeks forever.

I was told that our attrition is actually higher than they would like.

flyguy37
11-18-2018, 01:26 PM
I was told that our attrition is actually higher than they would like.

I bet it is. What company wants to spend thousands training you and then you leave?

Lockheed
11-18-2018, 01:54 PM
I made a similar post to this a few months back and it wasn't supported by K4 cheerleaders but I think its important to gather different viewpoints when people are making big decisions partially based off information gathered from message boards.

First I believe K4 is a great company with great people and the employee relations currently are better than any other I have experienced. They are having a lot of growing pains but they are working at it. Scheduling and travel logistics leave much to be desired but once a problem is escalated it is usually resolved in a timely and fair manner.

The job is enjoyable. You fly with some great guys and gals and do your leg or 2 and go to the hotel. Not much BS usually. The job is interesting but despite the occasional ad-hoc we fly to the same 20 airports 90 percent of the time.

The bad is the math that a new hire has to face. Currently there are 560ish pilots on property counting guys in training. The next several classes are full with ASA guys and others so anybody applying and interviewing now could find themselves at the bottom of the list when and if the music stops. When does the music stop? No one really knows. The last two 747s are coming on line soon but there is strong talk of two of our current 747s being parked or at least pickled until next peak. A few more 767s and one 777 are in queue as well. The obvious wild card is the 777 program. It could end up being a small program or we could get a CMI deal with DHL or others and the company growth would continue.

Also everybody now is making great money and breaking guarantee with ample overtime opportunities (at least in the 747) but when things slow down and we catch up on training one needs to be prepared to live off guarantee.


I say all this to say just because there are 12 month upgrades right now K4 has hired so many people in the last few years that it would be tough for upgrades under 2 years to continue as more and more are brought on and the growth slows down. There is very little attrition (a good sign in a way) and a relatively young workforce. Not a deal breaker really since most need a few years to prepare for captain anyway and the FO pay isn't horrible. It should just be factored in to one's decision making. I have spent a lot of time on the bottom of seniority lists and would hate for someone to leave a decent stable gig to be on the bottom of a list in a notoriously fickle segment of the aviation industry.


Just my opinion and I hope I am totally wrong and we get 100 more airplanes and hire 16 every 3 weeks forever.

that's pretty well thought out

MoarAlpha
11-18-2018, 02:34 PM
You donít. The window for new apps opens at the beginning of the year. The people being called were the guys that were already phase 2.

More than that even. I know one guy who got an interview that never received a phase 2 email. There's a chance for everyone who applied recently!

160to4
11-18-2018, 10:07 PM
The attrition rate in a gig like K4 will always be a little higher than they would like, no matter how good the morale is or how cosy the relationships are internally. As has been said on numerous threads about ACMI; it isn't for everyone. Those who like the comfort of stable schedules, airport terminals, 4 days of flying then back home for some time off, will likely not stick around for ever. K4 can easily be made a career option if you can get over the certain luxuries of a 121 airline.

HercDriver130
11-19-2018, 04:49 AM
I made a similar post to this a few months back and it wasn't supported by K4 cheerleaders but I think its important to gather different viewpoints when people are making big decisions partially based off information gathered from message boards.

First I believe K4 is a great company with great people and the employee relations currently are better than any other I have experienced. They are having a lot of growing pains but they are working at it. Scheduling and travel logistics leave much to be desired but once a problem is escalated it is usually resolved in a timely and fair manner.

The job is enjoyable. You fly with some great guys and gals and do your leg or 2 and go to the hotel. Not much BS usually. The job is interesting but despite the occasional ad-hoc we fly to the same 20 airports 90 percent of the time.

The bad is the math that a new hire has to face. Currently there are 560ish pilots on property counting guys in training. The next several classes are full with ASA guys and others so anybody applying and interviewing now could find themselves at the bottom of the list when and if the music stops. When does the music stop? No one really knows. The last two 747s are coming on line soon but there is strong talk of two of our current 747s being parked or at least pickled until next peak. A few more 767s and one 777 are in queue as well. The obvious wild card is the 777 program. It could end up being a small program or we could get a CMI deal with DHL or others and the company growth would continue.

Also everybody now is making great money and breaking guarantee with ample overtime opportunities (at least in the 747) but when things slow down and we catch up on training one needs to be prepared to live off guarantee.


I say all this to say just because there are 12 month upgrades right now K4 has hired so many people in the last few years that it would be tough for upgrades under 2 years to continue as more and more are brought on and the growth slows down. There is very little attrition (a good sign in a way) and a relatively young workforce. Not a deal breaker really since most need a few years to prepare for captain anyway and the FO pay isn't horrible. It should just be factored in to one's decision making. I have spent a lot of time on the bottom of seniority lists and would hate for someone to leave a decent stable gig to be on the bottom of a list in a notoriously fickle segment of the aviation industry.


Just my opinion and I hope I am totally wrong and we get 100 more airplanes and hire 16 every 3 weeks forever.

Lots of truth here.

Puck Hawg
11-19-2018, 05:35 AM
I made a similar post to this a few months back and it wasn't supported by K4 cheerleaders but I think its important to gather different viewpoints when people are making big decisions partially based off information gathered from message boards.

First I believe K4 is a great company with great people and the employee relations currently are better than any other I have experienced. They are having a lot of growing pains but they are working at it. Scheduling and travel logistics leave much to be desired but once a problem is escalated it is usually resolved in a timely and fair manner.

The job is enjoyable. You fly with some great guys and gals and do your leg or 2 and go to the hotel. Not much BS usually. The job is interesting but despite the occasional ad-hoc we fly to the same 20 airports 90 percent of the time.

The bad is the math that a new hire has to face. Currently there are 560ish pilots on property counting guys in training. The next several classes are full with ASA guys and others so anybody applying and interviewing now could find themselves at the bottom of the list when and if the music stops. When does the music stop? No one really knows. The last two 747s are coming on line soon but there is strong talk of two of our current 747s being parked or at least pickled until next peak. A few more 767s and one 777 are in queue as well. The obvious wild card is the 777 program. It could end up being a small program or we could get a CMI deal with DHL or others and the company growth would continue.

Also everybody now is making great money and breaking guarantee with ample overtime opportunities (at least in the 747) but when things slow down and we catch up on training one needs to be prepared to live off guarantee.


I say all this to say just because there are 12 month upgrades right now K4 has hired so many people in the last few years that it would be tough for upgrades under 2 years to continue as more and more are brought on and the growth slows down. There is very little attrition (a good sign in a way) and a relatively young workforce. Not a deal breaker really since most need a few years to prepare for captain anyway and the FO pay isn't horrible. It should just be factored in to one's decision making. I have spent a lot of time on the bottom of seniority lists and would hate for someone to leave a decent stable gig to be on the bottom of a list in a notoriously fickle segment of the aviation industry.


Just my opinion and I hope I am totally wrong and we get 100 more airplanes and hire 16 every 3 weeks forever.

Thank you for this! This is exactly what I wanted to hear. I still plan on coming over, but this post was full of ďreal worldĒ info.

All of this being said, are there rumors of more 777ís? Iíve heard 10-12 are coming. Iíd like to think that as e-commerce becomes more and more prevalent, the need for air cargo will increase.
Thanks!

Riverside
11-19-2018, 06:30 AM
All of this being said, are there rumors of more 777ís? Iíve heard 10-12 are coming. Iíd like to think that as e-commerce becomes more and more prevalent, the need for air cargo will increase.
Thanks!

I wouldn't bother with rumors until the deal is signed and the aircraft's are on property. Right now we only have 1.

filejw
11-19-2018, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't bother with rumors until the deal is signed and the aircraft's are on property. Right now we only have 1.

This for sure . In almost all segments of the aviation business until the aircraft is on the ramp and they ask you to get in and fly it itís still a rumor.

No Land 3
11-20-2018, 11:09 AM
Maybe DHL awards use those new 777's, maybe some some, maybe none. Maybe we buy more of our own? It would not surprise me if we wind up with 15 or just 1.
777's are the future, but Connie is going to get all of his money out of the 74 fleet, as he did with the classics.

No Land 3
11-20-2018, 11:14 AM
The attrition rate in a gig like K4 will always be a little higher than they would like, no matter how good the morale is or how cosy the relationships are internally. As has been said on numerous threads about ACMI; it isn't for everyone. Those who like the comfort of stable schedules, airport terminals, 4 days of flying then back home for some time off, will likely not stick around for ever. K4 can easily be made a career option if you can get over the certain luxuries of a 121 airline.
The comfort of airplane terminals?? Commuting every three to four days??
Alex, I'll take, "Paid deadhead twice a month and five star hotels for 500"

MoarAlpha
11-20-2018, 03:41 PM
Maybe DHL awards use those new 777's, maybe some some, maybe none. Maybe we buy more of our own? It would not surprise me if we wind up with 15 or just 1.
777's are the future, but Connie is going to get all of his money out of the 74 fleet, as he did with the classics.

No doubt 777s are the future. That investment/direction of the company alone keeps me pretty optimistic about Kalitta's future.

Checkers21
11-21-2018, 05:56 AM
No doubt 777s are the future. That investment/direction of the company alone keeps me pretty optimistic about Kalitta's future.

The only thing I know of for certain is that 777 fleet or not, the proper use of company email will continue to be a challenge. Iíve lost all hope for the day when these blow up email chains stop. Maybe they could do a little ďreply allĒ test during the interview?

Lockheed
11-21-2018, 06:24 AM
The only thing I know of for certain is that 777 fleet or not, the proper use of company email will continue to be a challenge. Iíve lost all hope for the day when these blow up email chains stop. Maybe they could do a little ďreply allĒ test during the interview?

Ya that AND aqp!

No Land 3
11-21-2018, 06:38 AM
It's a simple fix, only allow certain people the ability to use that company or fleet wide email address. My previous employer did just that after just one instance of people not using email correctly. I find it amusing that "email abuse" is one of the top complaints at an airline.