Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Duty/Flight time guidance


1wife2airlines
11-16-2018, 05:01 PM
While perusing my local airport on Flight Aware the other day I saw a flight to GYE and since I used to enjoy that layover I investigated who was going there. Turns out it was a Sovereign and it left left origin at around 3:30 local time and arrived at destination with three enroute stops on the way at about noon the next day their origin time. GYE was just one of the stops.How would a Part 91 outfit staff that? 2 young bucks with controlled napping? 3 pilots but would the relief be snoring in the cabin with the pax?


tbmpilot
11-16-2018, 06:36 PM
Why not mind your own business?

While perusing my local airport on Flight Aware the other day I saw a flight to GYE and since I used to enjoy that layover I investigated who was going there. Turns out it was a Sovereign and it left left origin at around 3:30 local time and arrived at destination with three enroute stops on the way at about noon the next day their origin time. GYE was just one of the stops.How would a Part 91 outfit staff that? 2 young bucks with controlled napping? 3 pilots but would the relief be snoring in the cabin with the pax?

TiredSoul
11-16-2018, 07:03 PM
Thatís not a question thatís a fishing expedition.


1wife2airlines
11-16-2018, 07:18 PM
Thatís not a question thatís a fishing expedition.

What would I be fishing for? The details would easily gleaned but I'm just interested in how an outfit would staff this. Back in my young buck days in the military this would be a mission hack. I don't even know if the same crew flew all 4 legs. But if your outfit wanted to get from a to b over the same length of time would it use 3 guys or 2 guys. If it's 2 guys do you schedule each other a nap? If it's 3 does the relief guy get to snooze in the cabin with pax? I don't even know if there were pax.

galaxy flyer
11-17-2018, 01:09 PM
We’d schedule a crew change enroute, pre-position a crew via commercial air to meet 12-hours of pre-departure crew rest. But a lot would not, there’s no crew rest in a Sovereign, so augmentation is non-starter.

I’ve done crew changes darn everywhere in the globe, ANC is popular for Asian legs, Panama would work here.


GF

JohnBurke
11-18-2018, 11:07 AM
While perusing my local airport on Flight Aware the other day I saw a flight to GYE and since I used to enjoy that layover I investigated who was going there. Turns out it was a Sovereign and it left left origin at around 3:30 local time and arrived at destination with three enroute stops on the way at about noon the next day their origin time. GYE was just one of the stops.How would a Part 91 outfit staff that? 2 young bucks with controlled napping? 3 pilots but would the relief be snoring in the cabin with the pax?

That's a typical day for a lot of freight operators; supplemental carriers run up to 18 hours with a single crew, 26 hours by adding a crew member, 30 hours with a double crew...and do this regularly.

A Part 91 crew has no regulatory duty or rest or flight time limitation.

How do you know that no crew change occurred at any of the stops?

1wife2airlines
11-18-2018, 04:54 PM
That's a typical day for a lot of freight operators; supplemental carriers run up to 18 hours with a single crew, 26 hours by adding a crew member, 30 hours with a double crew...and do this regularly.

A Part 91 crew has no regulatory duty or rest or flight time limitation.

How do you know that no crew change occurred at any of the stops?

I already said I don't know if the same crew flew all legs. But as you say there are no limitations. If the same crew did would they schedule cockpit naps? galaxy flyer suggests that there would be no augmentation but who knows if the pax wouldn't mind an extra body in the cabin.

galaxy flyer
11-18-2018, 05:58 PM
I already said I don't know if the same crew flew all legs. But as you say there are no limitations. If the same crew did would they schedule cockpit naps? galaxy flyer suggests that there would be no augmentation but who knows if the pax wouldn't mind an extra body in the cabin.

Just an innocent question, have you flown in a bizjet? We would augment a crew ONLY on a empty leg. Thereís not enough room to get any useful rest with pax in a Sovereign. Even in a Global or a Gulfstream, the crew rest area is next to the galley, so noise is an problem. The Gulfstream 550 has a origami like fold up forward lav which is another distraction. Frankly, having done it, a 11-hour bizjet is perfect, one duty period, go to bed in a hotel. If the pax want to continue onófine have a fresh crew in place.

GF

1wife2airlines
11-18-2018, 06:34 PM
Just an innocent question, have you flown in a bizjet? We would augment a crew ONLY on a empty leg. Thereís not enough room to get any useful rest with pax in a Sovereign. Even in a Global or a Gulfstream, the crew rest area is next to the galley, so noise is an problem. The Gulfstream 550 has a origami like fold up forward lav which is another distraction. Frankly, having done it, a 11-hour bizjet is perfect, one duty period, go to bed in a hotel. If the pax want to continue onófine have a fresh crew in place.

GF

Never have flown in a bizjet, thus my wonder about how it would be done. My conclusion so far is that pax found a 20 hour trip with three short refuel stops better than commercial which probably would be 30 hours and 1 to 3 connections. Where would your outfit crew change if the route was VNY-LRD-GYE-MDZ-BRC? I'm thinking LRD would be the most economical even thought it's still a long way down after that.

galaxy flyer
11-18-2018, 07:36 PM
Joking, but if we had to connect VNY and MDZ and BRC in one duty day, we wouldnít use a Sovereign, but a Global. Seriously, Iím guessing LRD and GYE are fuel stops and pax requirements because I would have dropped the LRD and GYE, if the Sovereign can make 2,600 nm and just stop at PTY. So the crew change would be in GYE. Thatís the only reasonable way to break up the duty periods. Itís 13+ in a Sovereign, but 11-ish in a Global or Gulfstream. With pre-flight and pax and customs, just doable in a 14-hour duty.

GF

1wife2airlines
11-18-2018, 08:01 PM
Joking, but if we had to connect VNY and MDZ and BRC in one duty day, we wouldnít use a Sovereign, but a Global. Seriously, Iím guessing LRD and GYE are fuel stops and pax requirements because I would have dropped the LRD and GYE, if the Sovereign can make 2,600 nm and just stop at PTY. So the crew change would be in GYE. Thatís the only reasonable way to break up the duty periods. Itís 13+ in a Sovereign, but 11-ish in a Global or Gulfstream. With pre-flight and pax and customs, just doable in a 14-hour duty.

GF

One track thinking. One or two stops could have been pax and/or crew. But are the duty period limits set by the outfit? Does Part 91 have any duty/flight time limits?

galaxy flyer
11-18-2018, 08:20 PM
One track thinking. One or two stops could have been pax and/or crew. But are the duty period limits set by the outfit? Does Part 91 have any duty/flight time limits?

Flight/Duty limits are set by the operator; as the FAR Part 91 has no such requirement until it becomes “careless and reckless”. The NBAA has put out pretty useful guidance for limits tailored to biz operations. Having a SMS program increasingly is required for international ops, esp in EASA. I’ve been in three corporate ops, all had flight/duty limits that were close to 135; one exception being no flight time limit within a strict 14-hour duty period. At my last operation, we held to pretty tight—a couple of fully justified, crew-initiated and approved duty extensions, no crew rest exceptions. It’s a leadership issue.

Regarding GYE, it’s only stop, assuming it’s pax-driven, that breaks up the trip into two reasonable duty periods. At the price these operations, a couple of airline tickets are pennies. I’ve crew changed in Petropavlovsk, Easter Island, Tenerife, Madrid, and ANC. It’s part of the deal.

It varies a lot, though. I don’t get “one track thinking”?

GF

1wife2airlines
11-18-2018, 09:32 PM
Flight/Duty limits are set by the operator; as the FAR Part 91 has no such requirement until it becomes ďcareless and recklessĒ. The NBAA has put out pretty useful guidance for limits tailored to biz operations. Having a SMS program increasingly is required for international ops, esp in EASA. Iíve been in three corporate ops, all had flight/duty limits that were close to 135; one exception being no flight time limit within a strict 14-hour duty period. At my last operation, we held to pretty tightóa couple of fully justified, crew-initiated and approved duty extensions, no crew rest exceptions. Itís a leadership issue.

Regarding GYE, itís only stop, assuming itís pax-driven, that breaks up the trip into two reasonable duty periods. At the price these operations, a couple of airline tickets are pennies. Iíve crew changed in Petropavlovsk, Easter Island, Tenerife, Madrid, and ANC. Itís part of the deal.

It varies a lot, though. I donít get ďone track thinkingĒ?

GF

I was thinking one crew and one set of pax.