Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Arrivals and Speeds


Bruno82
11-19-2018, 05:40 AM
Let’s say you’re on an arrival with published altitude restrictions and speed restrictions. ATC has NOT issued a descend via clearance. Are you required to comply with the speed restrictions? From what I have read, I believe you are. Several people I have talked to say no. Also, from what I’ve read, I believe you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 05:53 AM
Let’s say you’re on an arrival with published altitude restrictions and speed restrictions. ATC has NOT issued a descend via clearance. Are you required to comply with the speed restrictions? From what I have read, I believe you are. Several people I have talked to say no. Also, from what I’ve read, I believe you are.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYes. Absent any other clearance, if you're cleared for the arrival, you comply with the published speeds. I think it would be pretty unusual not to get some kind of vertical clearance while being cleared for the arrival. It may not be "descend via" but at a minimum it's probably going to be cross a down range fix at an altitude.

rickair7777
11-19-2018, 06:16 AM
Yes, the speeds are always required unless specifically waived by ATC.

Also, technically "Resume Normal Speed" on a routing with published speeds means comply with the next published speed.


starkutt1
11-19-2018, 06:57 AM
Yes. Absent any other clearance, if you're cleared for the arrival, you comply with the published speeds. I think it would be pretty unusual not to get some kind of vertical clearance while being cleared for the arrival. It may not be "descend via" but at a minimum it's probably going to be cross a down range fix at an altitude.

He didn’t say you were cleared for the arrival he said you’re on an arrival but atc didnt issue a descend via , a descend via is clearance to comply with the published altitudes and speed if one wasn’t issued I’d say you have no speed restrictions .

67Creek
11-19-2018, 06:58 AM
Yes, the speeds are always required unless specifically waived by ATC.

Also, technically "Resume Normal Speed" on a routing with published speeds means comply with the next published speed.


I have always believed this to be true as well, but can you provide a source? I want to put it on my EFB, so the next time a CA doesn't believe me I can show him.


Seems like 1/3 or so believe that the speeds are binding only with the "descend via" clearance.

TheFly
11-19-2018, 07:07 AM
Good resource:

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2014/Mar/NBAA-Pilot-Briefing-Climb-Via-Descend-Via-Speed-Adjustments-1.01-20140220.pdf

swaayze
11-19-2018, 07:09 AM
Here’s a nice doc created by my union. Not really “official” (so user assumes all risk, yadda yadda yadda....) but it seems to be accurate to the extent I’ve referenced it. The issue asked about seems to be covered by the last (blue) line on the far right.

EDIT: hmmm, never tried attachments here and not sure how to make this usable, sorry if you can’t download it.

mainlineAF
11-19-2018, 07:12 AM
He didn’t say you were cleared for the arrival he said you’re on an arrival but atc didnt issue a descend via , a descend via is clearance to comply with the published altitudes and speed if one wasn’t issued I’d say you have no speed restrictions .



Lol wut. If you’re flying an arrival it’s part of your clearance. Speeds are mandatory even if you’re not descending via.

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 07:24 AM
He didn’t say you were cleared for the arrival he said you’re on an arrival :confused: Looking forward to getting this explained to me........

swaayze
11-19-2018, 07:28 AM
:confused: Looking forward to getting this explained to me........

He means not cleared to “descend via”.

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 07:40 AM
He means not cleared to “descend via”. Mkay.... If you get cleared for a STAR, sooner or later you're going to get an altitude clearance. As I already mentioned, it's kind of unusual to get cleared for the STAR without any kind of descent clearance along with it. I supposed that's possible initially, but sooner or later that needs to change.

If they clear you for the STAR, you comply with the speeds. If they clear you for the STAR and to cross a down range fix on the STAR at an altitude and there are intermediate fixes between you and that fix with published speeds and/or altitudes, you comply with both. If the downrange fix and the altitude they clear you to cross is the last one on the STAR, they've essentially given you a "descend via" clearance whether they say those exact words or not. I don't really understand why we're making this difficult.

GogglesPisano
11-19-2018, 07:55 AM
Comply with published speeds unless otherwise cleared.

Comply with altitudes only if cleared to descend/climb via STAR's/SID's.


Yes it really is that simple.

Tell your captain Goggles Pisano said so.

Delay Apology
11-19-2018, 07:58 AM
Mkay.... If you get cleared for a STAR, sooner or later you're going to get an altitude clearance. As I already mentioned, it's kind of unusual to get cleared for the STAR without any kind of descent clearance along with it. I supposed that's possible initially, but sooner or later that needs to change.

If they clear you for the STAR, you comply with the speeds. If they clear you for the STAR and to cross a down range fix on the STAR at an altitude and there are intermediate fixes between you and that fix with published speeds and/or altitudes, you comply with both. If the downrange fix and the altitude they clear you to cross is the last one on the STAR, they've essentially given you a "descend via" clearance whether they say those exact words or not. I don't really understand why we're making this difficult.

Are you in the United States?
Kind of scary man.

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 08:13 AM
Are you in the United States?
Kind of scary man.We're obviously having a communication issue. What is it you find scary about being cleared to a lower altitude on a STAR and complying with other intermediate restrictions during your descent to your clearance limit?

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 08:33 AM
Comply with published speeds unless otherwise cleared.

Comply with altitudes only if cleared to descend/climb via STAR's/SID's.


Yes it really is that simple.

Tell your captain Goggles Pisano said so.
OK Goggles. Maybe I need an example to clarify.

You're at FL300. ATC clears you for the FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival into ORD. "Goggles, you're cleared direct MYRRS, cleared FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival-MYRRS transition, cross FYTTE at 11,000, 250 knots"

They don't say "Descend via".

Are you going to comply with the 3 intermediate restrictions (at BHAWK, CUUPP and CLSBY) between MYRRS and FYTTE or not?

foumanchu
11-19-2018, 09:16 AM
Look at AIM 5-4-1 1.

1. STAR procedures may have mandatory
speeds and/or crossing altitudes published. Other
STARs may have planning information depicted to
inform pilots what clearances or restrictions to “expect.”
“Expect” altitudes/speeds are not considered
STAR procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally
issued by ATC. Published speed restrictions are
independent of altitude restrictions and are mandatory
unless modified by ATC. Pilots should plan to
cross waypoints with a published speed restriction, at
the published speed, and should not exceed this speed
past the associated waypoint unless authorized by
ATC or a published note to do so.

And then later on:

NOTE−
1. When otherwise cleared along a route or procedure that
contains published speed restrictions, the pilot must comply
with those speed restrictions independent of any
descend via clearance.

GogglesPisano
11-19-2018, 09:39 AM
OK Goggles. Maybe I need an example to clarify.

You're at FL300. ATC clears you for the FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival into ORD. "Goggles, you're cleared direct MYRRS, cleared FYTTE 4 RNAV arrival-MYRRS transition, cross FYTTE at 11,000, 250 knots"

They don't say "Descend via".

Are you going to comply with the 3 intermediate restrictions (at BHAWK, CUUPP and CLSBY) between MYRRS and FYTTE or not?

In the example above I would comply with all published speeds and the verbal restriction given at FYTTE. Since no “descend via” was issued any published altitudes are irrelevant.

I think you and I are on the same page here (see earlier posts.)

Now in Canada on the other hand...

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 11:17 AM
In the example above I would comply with all published speeds and the verbal restriction given at FYTTE. Since no “descend via” was issued any published altitudes are irrelevant.

I think you and I are on the same page here (see earlier posts.)

Now in Canada on the other hand...
I guess I haven't viewed the lack of "descend via" as liberally as that. Not that I don't value your expertise, :D but do you have a reference that spells that out pretty clearly? The AIM reference previously posted wouldn't give me a warm fuzzy that I could ignore published STAR restrictions just because ATC didn't say a specific phrase.
If someone asked me before your post, I would have said that I would comply with all the restrictions if given the clearance I used in the example. Certainly not "scary" :rolleyes: and wouldn't get me violated by complying with intermediate altitudes on my way to 11,000, just not necessary based on your answer.

Before the emphasis on "descend via" clearances that have become a thing over the last few year, would you have given the same answer to my question?
I ask because I used to fly into ORD all the time (15 years ago) and receive a similar clearance to my example for one of the many STARs. We used to comply with all published restrictions on the STAR routing because......we were cleared for the STAR and they were part of it. Would you say our compliance was unnecessary back then as well?

Adlerdriver
11-19-2018, 11:20 AM
Are you in the United States?
Kind of scary man. By the way, nice first post. I wonder what your other user name(s) are here. :rolleyes:

EasternATC
11-20-2018, 01:15 PM
...words...


From FAAH 7110.65x, para. 4-5-7:


NOTE

1. Considering the principle that the last ATC clearance
issued has precedence over the previous, the phraseology
“maintain (altitude)” alone cancels previously issued
altitude restrictions, including SID/STAR altitude
restrictions unless they are restated or modified, and
authorizes an unrestricted climb or descent. Speed
restrictions remain in effect unless
the controller explicitly
cancels the speed restrictions.

sourdough44
11-23-2018, 05:27 AM
Just watch your TCAS on the guy ahead, you’re looking for 10 miles. If over 10, go as fast as you want(when smooth).

Once you get ten miles, slow to match that aircraft, simple. On the ILS final, about 3 miles will do depending on types.

GraceMonth
12-22-2018, 07:28 PM
Just watch your TCAS on the guy ahead, you’re looking for 10 miles. If over 10, go as fast as you want(when smooth).

Once you get ten miles, slow to match that aircraft, simple. On the ILS final, about 3 miles will do depending on types.

Seems legit. :rolleyes:

JohnBurke
12-23-2018, 07:55 AM
I guess I haven't viewed the lack of "descend via" as liberally as that.

The requirement to fly altitude as a function of "decend via" has been that way for a very long time. It's been re-emphasized of late, but it didn't change.

If cleared for a STAR, routing and airspeeds are mandatory; not altitudes unless cleared to "descend via." This isn't new.

Unless told to descend via, then one is not expected to comply with the published altitudes.

vessbot
12-30-2018, 08:34 PM
GENERALLY, unless given a "climb/decent via," the altitude restrictions are not in effect.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs400/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf

9. Q. What if I depart on a climb via clearance and later given a clearance to “Climb and Maintain”
an altitude; should I comply with any published altitude restrictions?
A. NO. Unlike a “Climb Via” clearance, when cleared to “Climb and Maintain,” you are expected to
vacate your current altitude and commence an unrestricted climb to comply with the clearance. For
aircraft already climbing via a SID, published altitude restrictions are deleted unless re- issued by
ATC. Speed restrictions remain in effect unless the controller explicitly cancels or amends the speed
restrictions.

HOWEVER, for some procedures the altitudes are mandatory regardless of the "climb via." Look at LGA GLDMN 5 departure, the note "Strict compliance with track and altitude restrictions is mandatory."

rickair7777
01-01-2019, 09:29 AM
GENERALLY, unless given a "climb/decent via," the altitude restrictions are not in effect.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afx/afs/afs400/afs410/pbn/media/Climb_Descend_Via_FAQ.pdf



HOWEVER, for some procedures the altitudes are mandatory regardless of the "climb via." Look at LGA GLDMN 5 departure, the note "Strict compliance with track and altitude restrictions is mandatory."

Where does it say ATC cannot waive that with a "climb and maintain"?

Obviously if terrain (vice arrival traffic) is the conflict then ATC would never waive it. In this case I don't recall any mountains in Queens or Brooklyn (JFK traffic maybe).

ToastAir
01-01-2019, 07:14 PM
Where does it say ATC cannot waive that with a "climb and maintain"?

Obviously if terrain (vice arrival traffic) is the conflict then ATC would never waive it. In this case I don't recall any mountains in Queens or Brooklyn (JFK traffic maybe).
Lots of close in obstructions up to almost 2000 AGL



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1