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View Full Version : Pilot good-will.


Bluedriver
11-22-2018, 06:51 AM
Why would the company even bother with their recent chief/executive free-beer meet-n-greet tour to find out why the overwhelming majority of pilots are not saving the operation with good-will, if they are going to great lengths to put the pieces in place for disciplining pilots for not cleaning aircraft?

Long sentence, sorry.

Writing the FAA and asking for a new interpretation and then sending the pilots emails telling us cleaning is a "requirement" to keep your pass benefits....

It's clear to me they are getting ready to start disciplining pilots who don't clean.


PasserOGas
11-22-2018, 09:09 AM
Why would the company even bother with their recent chief/executive free-beer meet-n-greet tour to find out why the overwhelming majority of pilots are not saving the operation with good-will, if they are going to great lengths to put the pieces in place for disciplining pilots for not cleaning aircraft?

Long sentence, sorry.

Writing the FAA and asking for a new interpretation and then sending the pilots emails telling us cleaning is a "requirement" to keep your pass benefits....

It's clear to me they are getting ready to start disciplining pilots who don't clean.

I think they are realizing our defiance on the issue is acting like a contagion. Watching us walk off without cleaning is emboldening other groups to do the same.

Nevermind that cleaning on the turns used to be a voluntary act of good will to a company that, under Nielman, generally did right by its employees, didn't lie and shared its successes.

This is about control. Instead of motivating through positive leadership, they will use the stick. It is this policy and the "smile through their teeth" way they force it upon you that shows them for what they truly are and what they think of you.

Remember, there are still many state labor laws this policy probably violates. Most other carriers HIRE CLEANERS to do this work. Jetblue wants to threaten you into doing it for free.

captjns
11-22-2018, 12:47 PM
One of those cases where you should get OSHA involved. After all... if the crews show late, do the cleaners perform cockpit crew preflight duties;)?


P-3Bubba
11-22-2018, 04:16 PM
Yes this is the same old playbook. Run the Wildcat! I agree that this is a set-up to a discipline action line ďifĒ you are caught not blue turning on a commute. The President has a thorn in her craw over cleaning. Oh BTW doesnít much care for her problematic labor costs (pilots) either.

But I digress. The pilot groupís goodwill bleeds good helpers. The RSA rains in and the group helps out. We will never find a win in a grievance that deals with cleaning and pass travel. We are so weak as a group itís almost a laugh. Get paid. Get your cash and agree to anything. Keep helping.

Oh, I have to go! Crew Services is calling on line 1. I better get dressed on my day off. Iím a good helper. Get my 💰 for Black Friday.

-Bubs

Bluedriver
11-22-2018, 05:34 PM
I agree the RSA queens are helping, but I see maybe 5% of the guys I fly with putting forth more than an ounce of good-will.

nuball5
11-22-2018, 05:52 PM
But I digress. The pilot groupís goodwill bleeds good helpers. The RSA rains in and the group helps out. We will never find a win in a grievance that deals with cleaning and pass travel. We are so weak as a group itís almost a laugh. Get paid. Get your cash and agree to anything. Keep helping.

Oh, I have to go! Crew Services is calling on line 1. I better get dressed on my day off. Iím a good helper. Get my 💰 for Black Friday.

-Bubs

It's literally like this at every airline....Legacy, LCC, Cargo, ACMI or Regional. The ones that live close to domicile usually are the ones that will pick up extra flying on their days off. Jetblue pilots aren't some outlier in the industry, sorry.

PasserOGas
11-22-2018, 06:49 PM
Yes this is the same old playbook. Run the Wildcat! I agree that this is a set-up to a discipline action line ďifĒ you are caught not blue turning on a commute. The President has a thorn in her craw over cleaning. Oh BTW doesnít much care for her problematic labor costs (pilots) either.

But I digress. The pilot groupís goodwill bleeds good helpers. The RSA rains in and the group helps out. We will never find a win in a grievance that deals with cleaning and pass travel. We are so weak as a group itís almost a laugh. Get paid. Get your cash and agree to anything. Keep helping.

Oh, I have to go! Crew Services is calling on line 1. I better get dressed on my day off. Iím a good helper. Get my 💰 for Black Friday.

-Bubs


So I had a thought on this. This assumes the company really cracks the whip and we get no relief from the FAA on duty.

Only fold the seat belts. Never clean the pockets. Inflight will have plausible deniability but imagine when the company NPS score goes through the floor due to all the dirty diapers and garbage customers are finding in the seat backs.

The fact is its the seat backs where the dirty needles, human feces, and vomit is located. This is the area I am least interested in putting my hands.

False good will is a two way street. I can smile while taking advantage too Joanna.

Hire cleaners and knock this demeaning nonsense off.

Otterbox
11-22-2018, 06:57 PM
So I had a thought on this. This assumes the company really cracks the whip and we get no relief from the FAA on duty.
Only fold the seat belts.


That sure sounds like the definition of ďDe MinimusĒ cleaning!

Bluedriver
11-23-2018, 07:19 AM
So I had a thought on this. This assumes the company really cracks the whip and we get no relief from the FAA on duty.

Only fold the seat belts. Never clean the pockets. Inflight will have plausible deniability but imagine when the company NPS score goes through the floor due to all the dirty diapers and garbage customers are finding in the seat backs.

The fact is its the seat backs where the dirty needles, human feces, and vomit is located. This is the area I am least interested in putting my hands.

False good will is a two way street. I can smile while taking advantage too Joanna.

Hire cleaners and knock this demeaning nonsense off.

Even better, throw all the trash INTO the seat back pockets.

pilotpayne
11-23-2018, 09:19 AM
Why would the company even bother with their recent chief/executive free-beer meet-n-greet tour to find out why the overwhelming majority of pilots are not saving the operation with good-will, if they are going to great lengths to put the pieces in place for disciplining pilots for not cleaning aircraft?

Long sentence, sorry.

Writing the FAA and asking for a new interpretation and then sending the pilots emails telling us cleaning is a "requirement" to keep your pass benefits....

It's clear to me they are getting ready to start disciplining pilots who don't clean.

Go to one and ask them :)

No doubt this is all from JG itís her thing and so it goes.

What else can she do itís not like she has any operational experience. Iím sure her idea is I said it so you should do it.

hilltopflyer
11-23-2018, 09:33 AM
Go to one and ask them :)

No doubt this is all from JG itís her thing and so it goes.

What else can she do itís not like she has any operational experience. Iím sure her idea is I said it so you should do it.

I would say I hope she is on my flight but I honestly have no earthly idea what she looks like

PasserOGas
11-23-2018, 12:56 PM
I would say I hope she is on my flight but I honestly have no earthly idea what she looks like

Here are a couple drawings.

https://www.bizmanualz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/boss-300x239.png

https://s3-ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/images.humanresourcesonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Oct-23-bad-boss-anthony-shutterstock-e1445568007714-700x419.jpg

Bluetruth
11-23-2018, 01:59 PM
The FAs are pushing hard to get rid of the cleaning requirement as part of their first contract. I'm sure the company is reminding them that everyone helps them out, and the FAs are replying with the obvious truth that almost no one helps out besides other FAs.

If the FAs are going to get less value out of the concession of having to clean, you better believe they are going to want to make sure everyone cleans. Why should they have to clean for next to nothing and be told its next to nothing since "everyone helps out".

umm no.

So either everyone has to clean , and there has to be easy and swift accountability (like a check box on the ipad seating chart showing s4s that can be toggled cleaned/did not clean that gets auto sent to inflight leadership and the leadership of the offending work group, is one solution i've heard), or the company stops all this madness and agrees to hire cleaners as part of the first contract with the FAs.

But just waving and saying bye as you walk past all the non rev FAs digging through pockets needs to end one way or the other. Happy cleaning, and don't forget its more than just crossing seat belts :)

pilotpayne
11-23-2018, 02:58 PM
The FAs are pushing hard to get rid of the cleaning requirement as part of their first contract. I'm sure the company is reminding them that everyone helps them out, and the FAs are replying with the obvious truth that almost no one helps out besides other FAs.

If the FAs are going to get less value out of the concession of having to clean, you better believe they are going to want to make sure everyone cleans. Why should they have to clean for next to nothing and be told its next to nothing since "everyone helps out".

umm no.

So either everyone has to clean , and there has to be easy and swift accountability (like a check box on the ipad seating chart showing s4s that can be toggled cleaned/did not clean that gets auto sent to inflight leadership and the leadership of the offending work group, is one solution i've heard), or the company stops all this madness and agrees to hire cleaners as part of the first contract with the FAs.

But just waving and saying bye as you walk past all the non rev FAs digging through pockets needs to end one way or the other. Happy cleaning, and don't forget its more than just crossing seat belts :)


Great can I get a list on my iPad so when all the other work groups donít do their jobs ( that they get paid for) we can check a box and send a report.

If they ever do that the FAs should refuse. What a stupid stupid idea.

Want to fix the culture get rid of this stupid cleaning and just have the cleaners that are already on the plane do the whole thing. That would fix it.

PasserOGas
11-23-2018, 03:40 PM
The FAs are pushing hard to get rid of the cleaning requirement as part of their first contract. I'm sure the company is reminding them that everyone helps them out, and the FAs are replying with the obvious truth that almost no one helps out besides other FAs.

If the FAs are going to get less value out of the concession of having to clean, you better believe they are going to want to make sure everyone cleans. Why should they have to clean for next to nothing and be told its next to nothing since "everyone helps out".

umm no.

So either everyone has to clean , and there has to be easy and swift accountability (like a check box on the ipad seating chart showing s4s that can be toggled cleaned/did not clean that gets auto sent to inflight leadership and the leadership of the offending work group, is one solution i've heard), or the company stops all this madness and agrees to hire cleaners as part of the first contract with the FAs.

But just waving and saying bye as you walk past all the non rev FAs digging through pockets needs to end one way or the other. Happy cleaning, and don't forget its more than just crossing seat belts :)

Nice. If they impliment an iPad tracking system that will definitely go into my "how fast do I taxi and with how many engines" decision making matrix.

To be clear, I would have to be called into the chief pilot personally before I MAY clean, and if I ever did it would be seat belts only.

"Sorry sir, I was in such a rush I missed that used airsickness bag!"

GuppyPuppy
11-24-2018, 07:28 AM
Forcing a CULTure on us isn't culture at all.

In fact, it has the exact opposite effect as was intended.

Gup

hilltopflyer
11-24-2018, 12:19 PM
Forcing a CULTure on us isn't culture at all.

In fact, it has the exact opposite effect as was intended.

Gup

Yep. If they want us to have goodwill towards the company they really should stop. It makes me never wanna go above and beyond.

Bluedriver
11-24-2018, 01:15 PM
Forcing a CULTure on us isn't culture at all.

In fact, it has the exact opposite effect as was intended.

Gup

Yep. Had no GAFs left. Now they have guaranteed it stays that way until we get an entire new leadership team and new leadership direction.

Put me down for one vote of "no confidence".

queue
11-25-2018, 11:43 AM
One of those cases where you should get OSHA involved. After all... if the crews show late, do the cleaners perform cockpit crew preflight duties;)?

Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

hilltopflyer
11-25-2018, 12:18 PM
Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

If you have to atick your hands into a dark bag with needles or
Something. I bet they do.

DontCallMeCindy
11-25-2018, 12:50 PM
Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ashp/media/faa-osha-report.pdf

DontCallMeCindy
11-25-2018, 12:58 PM
Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

Given that the FAA and OSHA have/had a joint task force addressing safety of non-flight deck crew during aircraft operation, I would presume via simple deductive reasoning that OSHA and state occupational health agencies have some level of administrative authority over working conditions and hazards aboard aircraft not in operation on the groundói.e. anyone performing servicing activities aboard the aircraft

Bluetruth
11-25-2018, 01:30 PM
Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

Horizon were made to stop serving food/drink onboard because they had no running water to wash hands with (just that soap foam you see in our lavs).

queue
12-02-2018, 08:50 AM
If you have to atick your hands into a dark bag with needles or
Something. I bet they do.


I agree. I do know that OSHA has cited lack of jurisdiction in the past. They say the FAA has jurisdiction. This also includes the EPA, which is why air quality standards that apply to buildings do not apply to aircraft cabins.

queue
12-02-2018, 08:51 AM
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ashp/media/faa-osha-report.pdf


Oh perfect. This could be useful...

aldonite7667
12-02-2018, 10:28 AM
Iím almost interested enough in the last two posts to unblock Qeue. Naaaa.

PasserOGas
12-02-2018, 10:37 AM
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ashp/media/faa-osha-report.pdf

2. Bloodborne Pathogens.
The requirements of OSHAís bloodborne pathogens standard concerning hepatitis B
vaccinations, personal protective equipment (PPE), and exposure training could be applied to
employees on aircraft in operation (other than flight deck crew) without compromising aviation
safety. However, OSHA requirements that necessitate engineering and administrative controls
may implicate aviation safety and would need to be subject to FAA approval.

Hmm. Could it apply? When did the company last vaccinate us against hepatitis?

I mean is working for zero pay cleaning planes "occupational"? If labor is being performed does the minimum wage apply? Taxes? SS?

Remember, not everyone cleaning is governed by the RLA so the waters aren't as muddy for them.

captjns
12-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Do you know of any legal precedence where OSHA has claimed jurisdiction aboard aircraft?

In theory, OSHA gets involved, when reported in detail, if employee safety is at risk. Get your airline’s safety department involved too.

Xtreme87
12-03-2018, 10:29 AM
Has anybody actually tried reaching out to OSHA, pretty sure you can get an easy answer. Cleaning required to maintain a benefit without any extra compensation.

PasserOGas
12-03-2018, 12:25 PM
Has anybody actually tried reaching out to OSHA, pretty sure you can get an easy answer. Cleaning required to maintain a benefit without any extra compensation.

Q is on it.

The problem is this place is vidictive. You go to OSHA using your real name they will manufacture a reason to fire you. They have done it many times before.

captjns
12-03-2018, 12:56 PM
Q is on it.

The problem is this place is vidictive. You go to OSHA using your real name they will manufacture a reason to fire you. They have done it many times before.

And entities/managers that have fired whistle blowers as a way of retribution have been successfully sued.

coopervane
12-03-2018, 03:07 PM
And entities/managers that have fired whistle blowers as a way of retribution have been successfully sued.

I opened a case with OSHA/CDC at my last company. They promised me total discretion. Assured me if any action was taken by the company to fire/punish they would be watching.

Never went anywhere.

PasserOGas
12-03-2018, 04:36 PM
I opened a case with OSHA/CDC at my last company. They promised me total discretion. Assured me if any action was taken by the company to fire/punish they would be watching.

Never went anywhere.

You mean on a scale of 1-10 OSHA was a "B6ALPA"?

queue
12-04-2018, 08:04 PM
Iím almost interested enough in the last two posts to unblock Qeue. Naaaa.


It's better you not. You can talk about inconsequential stuff over at bluepilots or that other non-anonymous forum.

queue
12-04-2018, 08:12 PM
2. Bloodborne Pathogens.
The requirements of OSHAís bloodborne pathogens standard concerning hepatitis B
vaccinations, personal protective equipment (PPE), and exposure training could be applied to
employees on aircraft in operation (other than flight deck crew) without compromising aviation
safety. However, OSHA requirements that necessitate engineering and administrative controls
may implicate aviation safety and would need to be subject to FAA approval.

Hmm. Could it apply? When did the company last vaccinate us against hepatitis?

I mean is working for zero pay cleaning planes "occupational"? If labor is being performed does the minimum wage apply? Taxes? SS?

Remember, not everyone cleaning is governed by the RLA so the waters aren't as muddy for them.


I don't think OSHA has any jurisdiction whatsoever. I read the previously cited PDF that has the OSHA <--> FAA MOU and it clearly states that the FAA has jurisdiction although basically they will 'listen' to OSHA.


I believe this is also why OSHA/EPA have done nothing about cabin air quality. I do know for a fact that OSHA/EPA do get involved instantly if an airport building fails air quality standards, yet, if the APU sucks in jet exhaust and gasses out your aircraft, they will do nothing because it's the FAA's sandbox.

queue
12-04-2018, 08:14 PM
You mean on a scale of 1-10 OSHA was a "B6ALPA"?


Never forget the people who are responsible for spectacular failures.

PasserOGas
12-05-2018, 03:52 AM
I don't think OSHA has any jurisdiction whatsoever. I read the previously cited PDF that has the OSHA <--> FAA MOU and it clearly states that the FAA has jurisdiction although basically they will 'listen' to OSHA.


I believe this is also why OSHA/EPA have done nothing about cabin air quality. I do know for a fact that OSHA/EPA do get involved instantly if an airport building fails air quality standards, yet, if the APU sucks in jet exhaust and gasses out your aircraft, they will do nothing because it's the FAA's sandbox.

OK, I'll buy that short of a lawsuit OSHA doesn't want a turf war with the FAA. What about California, Massachusetts, and New York labor law? What about the IRS? How many millions is B6 receiving in free labor? If the claim is that the pass travel is payment, wouldn't B6 or the employee :eek: need to report that?

I have to believe that if it was legal to force employees to perform manual labor without pay, more companies would be exploiting that loophole.

queue
12-13-2018, 10:03 PM
OK, I'll buy that short of a lawsuit OSHA doesn't want a turf war with the FAA. What about California, Massachusetts, and New York labor law? What about the IRS? How many millions is B6 receiving in free labor? If the claim is that the pass travel is payment, wouldn't B6 or the employee :eek: need to report that?

I have to believe that if it was legal to force employees to perform manual labor without pay, more companies would be exploiting that loophole.

Believe me, I 110% agree with you. It's almost like we need a well funded organization that holds a monopoly in order to launch civil suits in multiple jurisdictions to see what sticks... i just can't imagine what overpriced organization that would be....

PasserOGas
12-14-2018, 03:47 AM
Believe me, I 110% agree with you. It's almost like we need a well funded organization that holds a monopoly in order to launch civil suits in multiple jurisdictions to see what sticks... i just can't imagine what overpriced organization that would be....


No, exploitation of the pilots isn't on ALPA's list of "mandatory negotiating items".

I'm still looking for that list, I know I left it somewhere...

P-3Bubba
12-23-2018, 05:48 PM
Beg to fly calls going out. What a company thatís showing negative captain upgrades in some bases and seats.

-Bubs

Excargodog
12-23-2018, 05:58 PM
Never forget the people who are responsible for spectacular failures.


NASA?


Filler

hilltopflyer
12-23-2018, 06:57 PM
Beg to fly calls going out. What a company thatís showing negative captain upgrades in some bases and seats.

-Bubs

And the sad thing is.... people are answering the call.

P-3Bubba
12-24-2018, 04:18 AM
More calls this AM. Maybe people arenít helping out? How many RSA have gone out in the last 72 hours? How is this saving a dime? We spent 4 years haggling over peanuts for wages in the the CBA and now they just throw double time at everyone to make the operation function. Thereís a high level of concern that would reach my desk if I was COO. Iíd spend some time investigating how this could effect my ultimate goal of ďBluemanityĒ. All the happy horse $hit music stops when you start cnx flights for pilot staffing and customers take notice that weíre a garbage company. Pilot good will is dwindling.

-Bubs

TristarJS30
12-24-2018, 05:34 AM
Thereís a high level of concern that would reach my desk if I was COO. Iíd spend some time investigating how this could effect my ultimate goal of ďBluemanityĒ.

Do you think she even knows they throw money at pilots just to keep the day to day running?

From my humble observation our Operations Officer has nothing to do with the Operation itself. It's purely a title given to her so that when Robin's time is up she has the "operations" experience required of a CEO.

P-3Bubba
12-24-2018, 05:51 AM
Tri

I feel that you are correct. My blue juice heart wants to see success, because thatís what the mantra and the call asks of me. When I see disarray and fumbling at one end and then the other side tells me my uniform isnít on right or Iím not wearing a coat (WTF happened to leather jackets?) make sure Iím planning my commute -maybe not on Jblue b/c theyíll cnx for staffing or at least possibly delay 11 hours till they find a legal reserve. Itís very unnerving. I think I care too much. Merry Christmas.

-Bubs

GuppyPuppy
12-24-2018, 07:02 AM
I think I care too much. Merry Christmas.

-Bubs

Once you learn to not GAS anymore this job becomes tolerable.

Gup

Bluedriver
12-24-2018, 07:15 AM
Beg to fly calls going out. What a company thatís showing negative captain upgrades in some bases and seats.

-Bubs

The company made it's bed.

GuppyPuppy
12-24-2018, 07:32 AM
The company made it's bed.

Double pay today will not get me to answer my phone.

Two calls in last 12 hours.

Merry Christmas!

GP

CaptCoolHand
12-24-2018, 07:53 AM
My limo diverted last night after failed landing at LGA.

I got stood up by a triple crown limo and two Uberís too. In the Uberís defense they were sent to airportíS
and I was at a hotel.

P-3Bubba
12-24-2018, 08:22 AM
But hey! We can run the SOC from Long Island with technology!!! Whoís going to fly the f-ing jets???!!!!! Hire some cheap labor. Upgrade junior captains. Itís simple.

-Bubs

P-3Bubba
12-24-2018, 08:26 AM
Once you learn to not GAS anymore this job becomes tolerable.

Gup

Iím trying. Iím trying. But Iíve been in born with Catholic guilt. Mix it with the blue juice and I bare the burden.

-Bubs

hilltopflyer
12-24-2018, 08:40 AM
Iím trying. Iím trying. But Iíve been in born with Catholic guilt. Mix it with the blue juice and I bare the burden.

-Bubs

Dude. Donít give a crap. It makes this job so easy. I donít care about anything to do with Jetblue and my life when Iím working is sooooo much less stressful. When you donít care about the lack of ontime performance at this place it make life good. Otherwise you will blowup your first day

Bluedriver
12-24-2018, 09:09 AM
But hey! We can run the SOC from Long Island with technology!!! Whoís going to fly the f-ing jets???!!!!! Hire some cheap labor. Upgrade junior captains. Itís simple.

-Bubs

All of this. This airline's "leadership" focuses on all the wrong things.

Bluedriver
12-24-2018, 09:11 AM
Dude. Donít give a crap. It makes this job so easy. I donít care about anything to do with Jetblue and my life when Iím working is sooooo much less stressful. When you donít care about the lack of ontime performance at this place it make life good. Otherwise you will blowup your first day

Completely agree, but the burden ultimately falls on us with missed commutes (for no good reason) and extended duty days (I don't mean agreeing to extend, just longer duty days then expected). Otherwise, NO F's given anymore.

P-3Bubba
12-24-2018, 10:45 AM
I feel a New Years Resolution developing.

-Bubs

AYLflyer
12-25-2018, 03:17 AM
Uncovered lines and desperate calls to help. I cant even imagine what it would look like right now if there was a major weather event over the holidays.

Actually it might help because then there would be an excuse for the cancellations. I have no problem with people taking VDAs and making money for themselves but it blows my mind that ANYONE would do an RSA or simply pickup at straight pay out of "goodwill".

RiddleEagle18
12-25-2018, 05:02 AM
If all the chiefs arenít flying today, there is a problem. Every single one of them better be operating multiple legs.

Culture being the most important thing and all......




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

GuppyPuppy
12-25-2018, 06:50 AM
Culture being the most important thing and all......




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Don't forget that we will celebrate our wins!

GP

P-3Bubba
12-25-2018, 09:08 AM
What about Bonnie? Sheís a line Capt. Bought a trip off my buddy on a nice clear Monday 2 day in September. U think sheís working or in Aspen?

-Bubs

Bluedriver
12-26-2018, 05:34 AM
If all the chiefs arenít flying today, there is a problem. Every single one of them better be operating multiple legs.

Culture being the most important thing and all......




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm sure they are all flying if not harvesting blew CULTure potatoes.

capt707
12-26-2018, 09:50 AM
My ďMagical MomentĒ was yesterday... watching and laughing at the whole operation crumble on a clear VFR day...

P-3Bubba
12-26-2018, 12:31 PM
Itís embarrassing to watch things like that. You feel like an abandoned lamb in line for slaughter. The customers look at you like itís your fault that all the bluemanity, holier than thou attitude and being the best is just A Wizard Of Oz moment.

Here you are left to laugh, but also to say ďcan I count on this being here when I need my 401k?Ē Should I hit the eject button?

If ELT said ďLook weíre working on staffing. Weíll make this happen. Just keep doing what you can to help.Ē These are things I can work with. But all you see is more bluemanity cost savings rhetoric.

IDK. I think weíre heading for a very very rough IROP when it snows. Itís going to snow. Marooster got fired when we shut down for a day in Jan 2014. That was embarrassing. He was the COO. If I was the COO, Iíd be making a list and checking it twice so I didnít end up like Marooster.

-Bubs

hilltopflyer
12-26-2018, 01:11 PM
Itís embarrassing to watch things like that. You feel like an abandoned lamb in line for slaughter. The customers look at you like itís your fault that all the bluemanity, holier than thou attitude and being the best is just A Wizard Of Oz moment.

Here you are left to laugh, but also to say ďcan I count on this being here when I need my 401k?Ē Should I hit the eject button?

If ELT said ďLook weíre working on staffing. Weíll make this happen. Just keep doing what you can to help.Ē These are things I can work with. But all you see is more bluemanity cost savings rhetoric.

IDK. I think weíre heading for a very very rough IROP when it snows. Itís going to snow. Marooster got fired when we shut down for a day in Jan 2014. That was embarrassing. He was the COO. If I was the COO, Iíd be making a list and checking it twice so I didnít end up like Marooster.

-Bubs

Only hope of getting giggity fired.

Gearswinger
12-29-2018, 06:02 AM
IDK. I think weíre heading for a very very rough IROP when it snows. Itís going to snow. Marooster got fired when we shut down for a day in Jan 2014. That was embarrassing. He was the COO. If I was the COO, Iíd be making a list and checking it twice so I didnít end up like Marooster.

-Bubs


Stop being a c0ck tease. There is no way we are that lucky.

aldonite7667
12-29-2018, 07:55 AM
Itís not going to snow. That would be unusual weather.

GuppyPuppy
12-29-2018, 09:42 AM
Leave it to an airline to suck all the fun out of aviation.

GAS meter still at zero.

Gup

capt707
12-29-2018, 10:27 AM
Eh... who cares about OTP or running an airline when we have magic moments like this :D

https://blueflute.wistia.com/medias/e4hek3aobz

hyperboy
12-29-2018, 10:33 AM
Eh... who cares about OTP or running an airline when we have magic moments like this :D

https://blueflute.wistia.com/medias/e4hek3aobz

Way to much time time on your hands to be a hater.....you need a hobby bro.

RiddleEagle18
12-29-2018, 10:46 AM
Way to much time time on your hands to be a hater.....you need a hobby bro.



Itís embarrassing. Not the time or place.

We have a terrible operation. Time to stop making excuses.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hyperboy
12-29-2018, 10:55 AM
It’s embarrassing. Not the time or place.

We have a terrible operation. Time to stop making excuses.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Where did I make any excuses?.......Ohio State has been handling there business against the their rivals U of M for years...Auburn....not so much. Whats your excuse? ;)

RiddleEagle18
12-29-2018, 10:56 AM
Where did I make any excuses?.......



Not you. The pilot out playing with his flute.


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hyperboy
12-29-2018, 11:04 AM
not you. The pilot out playing with his flute.


Sent from my ipad using tapatalk

oh my.....

pilotpayne
12-29-2018, 08:48 PM
Itís embarrassing to watch things like that. You feel like an abandoned lamb in line for slaughter. The customers look at you like itís your fault that all the bluemanity, holier than thou attitude and being the best is just A Wizard Of Oz moment.

Here you are left to laugh, but also to say ďcan I count on this being here when I need my 401k?Ē Should I hit the eject button?

If ELT said ďLook weíre working on staffing. Weíll make this happen. Just keep doing what you can to help.Ē These are things I can work with. But all you see is more bluemanity cost savings rhetoric.

IDK. I think weíre heading for a very very rough IROP when it snows. Itís going to snow. Marooster got fired when we shut down for a day in Jan 2014. That was embarrassing. He was the COO. If I was the COO, Iíd be making a list and checking it twice so I didnít end up like Marooster.

-Bubs


Totally agree but they would NEVER admit there is a problem. Like you said just an easy hey ďwe knowĒ but they wonít even say that.

There is no way they fire JG nope

Ted Striker
12-30-2018, 05:11 AM
Eh... who cares about OTP or running an airline when we have magic moments like this :D

https://blueflute.wistia.com/medias/e4hek3aobz

Ha, I got a good laugh out of that one.

P-3Bubba
12-30-2018, 07:12 AM
I loved the email yesterday about ďkeep helping through the last 5 days of the holiday. Weíre almost there!! We may actually survive our self created staffing nightmare. Oh and please donít be upset about the fact weíre publicly blaming pilots for our major staffing and operational disaster. Just keep rowing, I mean helpingĒ

I think itís great that weíre all making tons of money to fly their mistakes. This could keep up for all of 2019. Happy New Year!!

-Bubs

Std Deviation
12-30-2018, 08:45 AM
Ha, I got a good laugh out of that one.

So someone can carry a flute and a bicycle but I can’t plug in my crockpot on a BOS - SFO transcon to slow roast a 7 pound rump roast? It was done in 5 hours. Plenty of time to clean up before TOD.

Quick question for experienced 190 guys....where do you plug in your George Foreman grill? I can’t find an outlet.

GuppyPuppy
12-30-2018, 09:04 AM
Quick question for experienced 190 guys....where do you plug in your George Foreman grill? I canít find an outlet.

We just go to Chik-fil-A sometime between our 4 legs.

GP

Tom a Hawk
12-30-2018, 10:11 AM
We just go to Chik-fil-A sometime between our 4 legs.

GP

I feel like a hobbit most days. First and Second breakfast, Elevenses, then Luncheon.

Itís ok. The Airbus guys voted themselves a lunch in the cba anyway

AYLflyer
12-30-2018, 01:33 PM
I loved the email yesterday about ďkeep helping through the last 5 days of the holiday. Weíre almost there!! We may actually survive our self created staffing nightmare. Oh and please donít be upset about the fact weíre publicly blaming pilots for our major staffing and operational disaster. Just keep rowing, I mean helpingĒ

I think itís great that weíre all making tons of money to fly their mistakes. This could keep up for all of 2019. Happy New Year!!

-Bubs

I was at JFK during the Christmas meltdown. I heard the gate agents telling extremely upset customers that "There's no pilots" and when the customer asked "Do you think they called out because of Christmas" the agent just says "Probably, a lot of them just called out so we don't have anyone right now".

It's embarrassing. I didn't see DL, AA, SW or even a regional have any delays on that beautiful VMC day.

pilotpayne
12-30-2018, 02:01 PM
I was at JFK during the Christmas meltdown. I heard the gate agents telling extremely upset customers that "There's no pilots" and when the customer asked "Do you think they called out because of Christmas" the agent just says "Probably, a lot of them just called out so we don't have anyone right now".

It's embarrassing. I didn't see DL, AA, SW or even a regional have any delays on that beautiful VMC day.


Yup had a jfk FA that we were working with ask why all the pilots called out. She said thatís what they were told. Iím glad ALPA pushed back on that oh wait. :(

Ted Striker
12-30-2018, 03:01 PM
So someone can carry a flute and a bicycle but I canít plug in my crockpot on a BOS - SFO transcon to slow roast a 7 pound rump roast? It was done in 5 hours. Plenty of time to clean up before TOD.

Quick question for experienced 190 guys....where do you plug in your George Foreman grill? I canít find an outlet.

Youíre going to want to bring your own.... this way you can use the foreman while simultaneously using the Ninja blender at the same time.

https://m.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/454Z66_AS01?$smmain$

BeatNavy
12-30-2018, 06:58 PM
So someone can carry a flute and a bicycle but I canít plug in my crockpot on a BOS - SFO transcon to slow roast a 7 pound rump roast? It was done in 5 hours. Plenty of time to clean up before TOD.

Quick question for experienced 190 guys....where do you plug in your George Foreman grill? I canít find an outlet.

Thereís an outlet on each side for iPad chargers. Not sure if it has enough juice for a foreman grill. Bigger problem is lack of cooking space, and lack of time at cruise to cook. Iíll take the fumier/roomier flight deck I guess. Hopefully the a220 has a nice cooking outlet and ample space with no fume issues. Win win for all you cockpit cookers.

coopervane
12-30-2018, 07:57 PM
This is what I use. Comes with a carry bag. No outlet needed. Propane. Fits on the bus tray table nicely.

Does pancakes, sausage, bacon......GREAT omelette.

Bluedriver
12-31-2018, 02:16 AM
This is what I use. Comes with a carry bag. No outlet needed. Propane. Fits on the bus tray table nicely.

Does pancakes, sausage, bacon......GREAT omelette.

I want one! Link please?

The Airbus has so many FUMES (not odors) in the cabin air that a little propane exhaust won't even move the needle.

aldonite7667
12-31-2018, 04:26 AM
Would be hilarious to see a fumes report for bacon.

Bluedriver
12-31-2018, 06:37 AM
Would be hilarious to see a fumes report for bacon.

Funny, or DELICIOUS?!?

coopervane
12-31-2018, 11:04 AM
Sorry, forgot the link

https://www.amazon.com/Blackstone-Tabletop-Grill-Adjustable-Tailgating/dp/B076MFM8LX/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546286595&sr=8-3&keywords=propane+flat+top+grill

Bluedriver
01-01-2019, 06:45 AM
Sorry, forgot the link

https://www.amazon.com/Blackstone-Tabletop-Grill-Adjustable-Tailgating/dp/B076MFM8LX/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546286595&sr=8-3&keywords=propane+flat+top+grill

Done! Not all my transcons have a Mint meal... This is gonna be great!

P-3Bubba
01-02-2019, 04:16 PM
Got another please help call today 0300.

-Bubs

benzoate
01-05-2019, 01:40 AM
Got another please help call today 0300.

-Bubs

Whos arse have you kissed in the pass to get all these calls? Not a nary of ringing or blinking lights for me.

Climbto450
01-05-2019, 06:48 AM
Whos arse have you kissed in the pass to get all these calls? Not a nary of ringing or blinking lights for me.
I agree, crickets at my house with the ringer on full loud..

RiddleEagle18
01-05-2019, 07:40 AM
Where do you live and where do you list your flica commute airport as. Both of those matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Climbto450
01-05-2019, 08:23 AM
Where do you live and where do you list your flica commute airport as. Both of those matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1 hour drive from base.

Gearswinger
01-05-2019, 11:44 AM
1 hour drive from base.


You're not being called because you are in a seat that is relatively well staffed and/or you are junior and they call VDA in seniority order.

CaptCoolHand
01-06-2019, 04:43 AM
Send an email to crewplanning.

Tell them your city and availability. Thereís go to list for clean up.

I encourage this especially in Mco. You should pick up all flying you can. Extra on weekends.

Climbto450
01-06-2019, 08:51 PM
You're not being called because you are in a seat that is relatively well staffed and/or you are junior and they call VDA in seniority order.

My original post was meant as a statement but thanks for the refresher on VDA policy😉

queue
01-07-2019, 05:51 PM
Way to much time time on your hands to be a hater.....you need a hobby bro.


Hyper "gets special treatment" Boy

queue
01-07-2019, 06:12 PM
Got another please help call today 0300.

-Bubs


I don't see how being asked to fly ad hoc is even remotely legal. Unless you're flying part 91, how do you get around getting your "anticipatory" rest prior to duty? It doesn't really matter if you feel rested. What matter is is weather or not your company called to put you into crew rest for duty 10 hours later. From what I understand, if you were never put into crew rest, how are you legally accepting duty if the rest was not known ahead of time? Aren't you breaking the CFRs by saving the operation unless you're on Reserve, where your rest period is known ahead of time? if they can just call you at any time and you can accept, then why do we need Reserve?

queue
01-07-2019, 06:17 PM
That sure sounds like the definition of ďDe MinimusĒ cleaning!


Where is the FAA "de minimus" written text? Why didn't JB just make this mythical ruling available? I mean, after all, we could each be breaking the LAW if there is some kind of secret legal disposition.


ALPA, thanks for not challenging them af all.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:20 PM
I think they are realizing our defiance on the issue is acting like a contagion.


Hahahhahaha. JB pilots have no defiance. They're begging and thanking their lucky stars they have a job.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:26 PM
So I had a thought on this. This assumes the company really cracks the whip and we get no relief from the FAA on duty.




The FAA has no legal authority to waive, minimize, or reduce the law. Even if JB pays off some corrupt FAA New York POI to "rewrite" their interpretation, it doesn't matter. The law is the law. Even if a POI says it's ok, you are still breaking the law.



I'm so glad those ALPA lawyers are working hard to earn their paychecks off our backs.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:28 PM
Remember, there are still many state labor laws this policy probably violates. Most other carriers HIRE CLEANERS to do this work. Jetblue wants to threaten you into doing it for free.


Unfortunately there is no useful case law on this because ALPA lawyers don't even TRY to make some by taking airlines to court.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:37 PM
Q is on it.

The problem is this place is vidictive. You go to OSHA using your real name they will manufacture a reason to fire you. They have done it many times before.


We have ALPA. They love to claim that they represent us but truth be told, our MEC are a bunch of cowards that are too worried about themselves to deliver results. ALPA should be in court with JB and be involved with class action lawsuits against ALL airlines regarding duty and free work. We shouldn't have to stick out or necks individually when we pay ALPA a fortune to represent us. They chose to deliver us a self-nullyfying contract full of arbitration and "if available" clauses which will keep them employed for decades running in place and ****ing into the wind.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:41 PM
I opened a case with OSHA/CDC at my last company. They promised me total discretion. Assured me if any action was taken by the company to fire/punish they would be watching.

Never went anywhere.


They should have told you up front that they cannot investigate unless you put your name in the public sphere. They are limited by weak, pro-corporate laws. Ralph Nader is needed to rewrite these laws.

queue
01-07-2019, 06:46 PM
Do you think she even knows they throw money at pilots just to keep the day to day running?

From my humble observation our Operations Officer has nothing to do with the Operation itself. It's purely a title given to her so that when Robin's time is up she has the "operations" experience required of a CEO.


Sure glad ALPA is swamping the shareholders and board of directors with votes of no confidence. No one can see this coming from a mile away! I seem to remember SWAPA did these things. ALPA???

GuppyPuppy
01-08-2019, 07:12 AM
Hey Q,

How many cups of coffee did you have this morning?

Gup

Toonces
01-08-2019, 05:45 PM
I don't see how being asked to fly ad hoc is even remotely legal. Unless you're flying part 91, how do you get around getting your "anticipatory" rest prior to duty? It doesn't really matter if you feel rested. What matter is is weather or not your company called to put you into crew rest for duty 10 hours later. From what I understand, if you were never put into crew rest, how are you legally accepting duty if the rest was not known ahead of time? Aren't you breaking the CFRs by saving the operation unless you're on Reserve, where your rest period is known ahead of time? if they can just call you at any time and you can accept, then why do we need Reserve?


Regarding ďanticipatoryĒ rest, you are on rest from release from an FDP until your next FDP. If you had a day off prior to accepting a ďplease helpĒ call, this would certainly satisfy the rest requirement. Basically, before accepting a flight assignment, a flight crewmember must be able to prospectively determine that he/she will be able to look back 24 hours from the scheduled completion of each flight segment and find a legally scheduled rest within the previous 24 hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

P-3Bubba
01-09-2019, 07:31 AM
I don't see how being asked to fly ad hoc is even remotely legal. Unless you're flying part 91, how do you get around getting your "anticipatory" rest prior to duty? It doesn't really matter if you feel rested. What matter is is weather or not your company called to put you into crew rest for duty 10 hours later. From what I understand, if you were never put into crew rest, how are you legally accepting duty if the rest was not known ahead of time? Aren't you breaking the CFRs by saving the operation unless you're on Reserve, where your rest period is known ahead of time? if they can just call you at any time and you can accept, then why do we need Reserve?

Just happened again. They called me at 0300 when I had a 3 day with a report time of 1100. I didnít answer. Mistake. I should have answered and then said, ďwell, you woke me up and now Iím fatigued for my trip. Adios.Ē I emailed ALPA sked and was told that they are allowed one chance to contact you. CS didnít leave a voicemail either. Just the phone ringing at 0300. ALPA said all I could do was call out fatigued.

I saw a Capt call fatigued after his jet broke. Report time was 0500. Called fatigued at 1000. Was told to go to the hotel for 10 hours and he would be re-assigned then. Yikes.



-Bubs

hilltopflyer
01-09-2019, 08:45 AM
Just happened again. They called me at 0300 when I had a 3 day with a report time of 1100. I didnít answer. Mistake. I should have answered and then said, ďwell, you woke me up and now Iím fatigued for my trip. Adios.Ē I emailed ALPA sked and was told that they are allowed one chance to contact you. CS didnít leave a voicemail either. Just the phone ringing at 0300. ALPA said all I could do was call out fatigued.

I saw a Capt call fatigued after his jet broke. Report time was 0500. Called fatigued at 1000. Was told to go to the hotel for 10 hours and he would be re-assigned then. Yikes.



-Bubs

You donít have to answer to call in fatigued. They are allowed to call but doesnít mean that you canít call out fatigued.

benzoate
01-09-2019, 11:37 AM
You donít have to answer to call in fatigued. They are allowed to call but doesnít mean that you canít call out fatigued.

If you look at it this way what is the difference between a hotel employee waking you up during your rest period or crew services waking you up. Fatigued is fatigued.

ThreeStripe
01-09-2019, 07:54 PM
I keep hearing about a do not call list that will supposedly stop the 0300 harassment calls on your days off. Does anyone know if it actually exists and how to get on it? If enough of us do it, that will give them a definitive answer on pilot goodwill.

rvr1800
01-10-2019, 02:55 AM
I keep hearing about a do not call list that will supposedly stop the 0300 harassment calls on your days off. Does anyone know if it actually exists and how to get on it? If enough of us do it, that will give them a definitive answer on pilot goodwill.

It exists. Call CS and ask them to add you.

benzoate
01-23-2019, 02:13 PM
Got my first call last night to cover a trip. Obviously I declined but I still got called. I finally feel like the pretty girl at the dance.

capt707
01-23-2019, 02:27 PM
Pilot (and employee) good will decline even more after tomorrow after we get another slap in the face when they will probably announce no profit sharing!

hilltopflyer
01-23-2019, 04:15 PM
Pilot (and employee) good will decline even more after tomorrow after we get another slap in the face when they will probably announce no profit sharing!

Even if they announce profit sharing it will be almost zilch

GuppyPuppy
01-23-2019, 04:50 PM
Pilot (and employee) good will decline even more after tomorrow after we get another slap in the face when they will probably announce no profit sharing!

I think it declined quite a bit over the last 3 days.

I know that Massport messed up by not clearing the runways. But, we had so many screw ups with hotels and transportation not being booked.

I don't really see how my GAS meter can go any lower. Leave it to the company to suck all the fun out of aviation.

Gup

queue
01-25-2019, 07:34 PM
I think it declined quite a bit over the last 3 days.

I know that Massport messed up by not clearing the runways. But, we had so many screw ups with hotels and transportation not being booked.

I don't really see how my GAS meter can go any lower. Leave it to the company to suck all the fun out of aviation.

Gup

It's a good opportunity to seek accountability of all the people who voted for a substandard contract and to keep accountability of the substandard MEC who delivered it.

rvr1800
01-26-2019, 06:41 AM
It's a good opportunity to seek accountability of all the people who voted for a substandard contract and to keep accountability of the substandard MEC who delivered it.

Other than complain on a message board, what did you do to effect change during negotiations? This Yes vs No crap is getting old. 74% voted yes. Get over it. Help to identify problems with the current CBA and how to fix them in the next.

Or just complain here.

WhistlePig
01-26-2019, 09:42 AM
Other than complain on a message board, what did you do to effect change during negotiations? This Yes vs No crap is getting old. 74% voted yes. Get over it. Help to identify problems with the current CBA and how to fix them in the next.

Or just complain here.

Queue is not going to volunteer. That would require being accountable.

PasserOGas
01-26-2019, 12:24 PM
Other than complain on a message board, what did you do to effect change during negotiations? This Yes vs No crap is getting old. 74% voted yes. Get over it. Help to identify problems with the current CBA and how to fix them in the next.

Or just complain here.

The next CBA will most likely be worse than this one.

With a 74% yes vote on the last turd, the company knows that they could offer less and still get 51%.

BTW, Q identified the flaws in the CURRENT CBA before it went out for a vote. Nobody wanted to hear it.

He also got the FAA to agree that cleaning is duty. So in a way he did more as one person than ALPA could be bothered to.

queue
01-29-2019, 02:48 PM
Queue is not going to volunteer. That would require being accountable.


No, it would require changing ALPA first. I will never volunteer unless I am in charge.

WhistlePig
01-29-2019, 04:32 PM
No, it would require changing ALPA first. I will never volunteer unless I am in charge.

That impossible scenario still does not absolve you of accountability.

benzoate
01-31-2019, 06:36 AM
No, it would require changing ALPA first. I will never volunteer unless I am in charge.

That comments illustrates an utter lack of understanding as to how a union structure works.

PasserOGas
01-31-2019, 09:11 AM
That comments illustrates an utter lack of understanding as to how a union structure works.

Especially ALPA, where national will sue MECs that don't bend over.

benzoate
02-01-2019, 10:55 AM
Especially ALPA, where national will sue MECs that don't bend over.

Yeah, um, not quite sure that's what I meant.

queue
02-03-2019, 10:51 PM
That comments illustrates an utter lack of understanding as to how a union structure works.


I understand the legal structure of it. That makes me to also understand that virtually all of the ways of doing things are completely self imposed and can be changed by a leader selling a better way to the union's members. The problem is that most people don't know where the real lines are drawn. They only know status quo or ALPA establishment party lines.

WhistlePig
02-05-2019, 05:34 AM
I understand the legal structure of it. That makes me to also understand that virtually all of the ways of doing things are completely self imposed and can be changed by a leader selling a better way to the union's members. The problem is that most people don't know where the real lines are drawn. They only know status quo or ALPA establishment party lines.

I canít tell if youíre a Russian bot or Professor Harold Hill

benzoate
02-05-2019, 06:34 AM
I understand the legal structure of it. That makes me to also understand that virtually all of the ways of doing things are completely self imposed and can be changed by a leader selling a better way to the union's members. The problem is that most people don't know where the real lines are drawn. They only know status quo or ALPA establishment party lines.

You basically said nothing.

Iíd find it interesting how people think they can do so much better while sitting in the stands. You truly think you come in and start dictating terms? You think you control 12 other LEC members? Management will simply bend over backwards because you walk in the door? Without any real experience you come in and provide guidance for the endless committees?

You donít know sheet Que. and the worst part is this anonymous board is as close to leadership as youíll get.

And before anyone rails on me I donít give sheet for jetblue and I do agree everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

benzoate
02-05-2019, 06:39 AM
I think they are realizing our defiance on the issue is acting like a contagion. Watching us walk off without cleaning is emboldening other groups to do the same.

Nevermind that cleaning on the turns used to be a voluntary act of good will to a company that, under Nielman, generally did right by its employees, didn't lie and shared its successes.

This is about control. Instead of motivating through positive leadership, they will use the stick. It is this policy and the "smile through their teeth" way they force it upon you that shows them for what they truly are and what they think of you.

Remember, there are still many state labor laws this policy probably violates. Most other carriers HIRE CLEANERS to do this work. Jetblue wants to threaten you into doing it for free.

I think the best point you made POG is your last. Much like FDP extensions and dependability reports jetblue hopes to scare you into doing something. Most pilots are accepting extensions or coming to work Iíll to avoid any blow back. While all three issues are separate and independent I donít believe the airline wants to publicly fight that battle over cleaning. I guess weíll see.

queue
02-05-2019, 02:15 PM
You basically said nothing.

Iíd find it interesting how people think they can do so much better while sitting in the stands. You truly think you come in and start dictating terms? You think you control 12 other LEC members? Management will simply bend over backwards because you walk in the door? Without any real experience you come in and provide guidance for the endless committees?

You donít know sheet Que. and the worst part is this anonymous board is as close to leadership as youíll get.

And before anyone rails on me I donít give sheet for jetblue and I do agree everyone is entitled to their own opinions.


The entire structure of MEC and LEC is self imposed. I somehow doubt you've ever opened your mind to reading what is legally required vs. what small minds have self imposed on themselves to their own detriment. ALPA does not have to be the only game in town. But, most pilots are accustomed to what they can see only in front of them.

queue
02-05-2019, 02:18 PM
I think the best point you made POG is your last. Much like FDP extensions and dependability reports jetblue hopes to scare you into doing something. Most pilots are accepting extensions or coming to work Iíll to avoid any blow back. While all three issues are separate and independent I donít believe the airline wants to publicly fight that battle over cleaning. I guess weíll see.


It would be nice if ALPA lived up to their dues and settled this in court so we could have case law rather than some malleable "contract".

benzoate
02-05-2019, 02:23 PM
The entire structure of MEC and LEC is self imposed. I somehow doubt you've ever opened your mind to reading what is legally required vs. what small minds have self imposed on themselves to their own detriment. ALPA does not have to be the only game in town. But, most pilots are accustomed to what they can see only in front of them.
Again you have said nothing and provided no ideas.

benzoate
02-05-2019, 02:24 PM
It would be nice if ALPA lived up to their dues and settled this in court so we could have case law rather than some malleable "contract".

Provide Facts.

Papa Bear
02-06-2019, 08:23 AM
Take a look at ask gigity today...all the pilot good will right there.

cmesoar
02-06-2019, 08:46 AM
Provide Facts.

Q never provides facts. As far as I am concerned he/she is no different that giggity. No facts, I move on.

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 09:40 AM
Take a look at ask gigity today...all the pilot good will right there.

It's priceless.

capt707
02-06-2019, 09:42 AM
It's priceless.

I think all the pilots crashed HJB, I canít even get on.... haha!

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 09:44 AM
I think all the pilots crashed HJB, I canít even get on.... haha!

Crashed, or the company turned it off because the company was losing control of the message?!?

hilltopflyer
02-06-2019, 11:01 AM
Crashed, or the company turned it off because the company was losing control of the message?!?

What was being said I couldnít get on to see.

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 11:04 AM
What was being said I couldnít get on to see.

Lots of employees venting. Our resident professor Payne had a great write-up also.

hilltopflyer
02-06-2019, 11:06 AM
Lots of employees venting. Our resident professor Payne had a great write-up also.

Nice... canít wait to see if it gets scrubbed haha

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 11:13 AM
Nice... canít wait to see if it gets scrubbed haha

On the substance, that is literally the worst denial I've ever seen.

hilltopflyer
02-06-2019, 11:28 AM
On the substance, that is literally the worst denial I've ever seen.

Didnít get a chance to read it
Edit: wow just read them. Priceless. But you know it wonít change anything from on top of their glass mountain.

capt707
02-06-2019, 12:51 PM
Looks like damage control in progress.... super passes, free Mint and now a nerwork “strategy” call?

But your profit sharing is still pathetic!

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 12:52 PM
Looks like damage control in progress.... super passes, free Mint and now a nerwork ďstrategyĒ call?

But your profit sharing is still pathetic!

Sounds like you've seen behind the curtain...

benzoate
02-06-2019, 02:41 PM
Seriously though. Was there some call in with gigity? What happened?

Bluedriver
02-06-2019, 08:43 PM
Seriously though. Was there some call in with gigity? What happened?

Have you gone to hellojetblue read the Ask Joanna about merging with United? Read all the comments?

If not, you should!

PasserOGas
02-07-2019, 04:21 AM
Have you gone to hellojetblue read the Ask Joanna about merging with United? Read all the comments?

If not, you should!

Wow, that made me so happy to read. I noticed it was buried under 3 stories about the same thing (standby changes) though. Strange.

Bluedriver
02-07-2019, 04:59 AM
Wow, that made me so happy to read. I noticed it was buried under 3 stories about the same thing (standby changes) though. Strange.

Not strange, FULLY INTENTIONAL. They buried that story of the front page as fast as they could.

sailingfun
02-07-2019, 06:44 AM
Especially ALPA, where national will sue MECs that don't bend over.

Can you give some examples please?

sailingfun
02-07-2019, 06:56 AM
We have ALPA. They love to claim that they represent us but truth be told, our MEC are a bunch of cowards that are too worried about themselves to deliver results. ALPA should be in court with JB and be involved with class action lawsuits against ALL airlines regarding duty and free work. We shouldn't have to stick out or necks individually when we pay ALPA a fortune to represent us. They chose to deliver us a self-nullyfying contract full of arbitration and "if available" clauses which will keep them employed for decades running in place and ****ing into the wind.

You need to read the RLA and case law. You have a miss understanding about how things work. Hint, look at the word grievance.

Bluedriver
02-07-2019, 06:58 AM
Can you give some examples please?

I think he's off-base on that one.

Bluetruth
02-07-2019, 11:53 AM
So how is the grass looking these days? Or have you all been fooled?? Let AO know.

Revealed: Joanna Geraghty claimed the companyís successes wouldnít be possible if employees unionized

ďSo if anyone asks you to sign a card, Iím asking you to decline. Donít be fooled Ė the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence and you donít have to look over that fence to see what unions have done (or failed to do) at other airlines,Ē the email said.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/07/jetblue-president-warned-workers-against-joining-union?fbclid=IwAR11EKv5SJHQ9dHK87NTRmnO5vJH7Vrj8H7 vReTM5d-oL-u4dVqgkaOBC30

aldonite7667
02-07-2019, 11:56 AM
So how is the grass looking these days? Or have you all been fooled?? Let AO know.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/feb/07/jetblue-president-warned-workers-against-joining-union?fbclid=IwAR11EKv5SJHQ9dHK87NTRmnO5vJH7Vrj8H7 vReTM5d-oL-u4dVqgkaOBC30

I donít give an F what they do.

Bluetruth
02-07-2019, 11:59 AM
I donít give an F what they do.

But you want everyone to care and feel sorry for you when you are marching around a building in Queens huh?

Keep living up to stereotype pal.

queue
02-07-2019, 01:00 PM
You need to read the RLA and case law. You have a miss understanding about how things work. Hint, look at the word grievance.


Why do you think I've said what I've said. Don't presume to know what I know.

aldonite7667
02-07-2019, 01:55 PM
But you want everyone to care and feel sorry for you when you are marching around a building in Queens huh?

Keep living up to stereotype pal.

Nope, I donít want anything from you. You expressed your unwillingness to support us after we unionized. Why should we support you or any other work group. In other words, you do you.

benzoate
02-07-2019, 03:52 PM
Have you gone to hellojetblue read the Ask Joanna about merging with United? Read all the comments?

If not, you should!

I didnít think people actually post there.

hilltopflyer
02-07-2019, 04:26 PM
I love how they finally said please clean not you have to in the latest post haha

queue
02-08-2019, 02:49 PM
I love how they finally said please clean not you have to in the latest post haha


It doesn't matter. It's just one of the dozen places where they force you to. The problem is that it's a contractual obligation since our contract didn't specifically forbid it. The contract outsources to various documents such as the pass riding guide and the Blue Book, all of which they control. Plus people still took the online training which was "signed". They have the perfect way to claim it's voluntary while using it against you if you don't do it. I wish ALPA had done more about it but they are quite ineffective.


Incidentally, you should see how they are attacking pilots now in their latest email regarding people who aren't paying dues. These clowns will learn the hard way that you don't attack the people who you claim to serve. They are arrogant to assume it will always be an ALPA agency shop and not some other union. It would be one thing if there were 70% people not paying but calling out 4 pilots is just inexcusable and will come back to haunt these guys. Too bad they didn't display the same adversarial relationship towards BJ. These MEC cowards got us a substandard contract but they attack pilots.

hilltopflyer
02-08-2019, 03:22 PM
It doesn't matter. It's just one of the dozen places where they force you to. The problem is that it's a contractual obligation since our contract didn't specifically forbid it. The contract outsources to various documents such as the pass riding guide and the Blue Book, all of which they control. Plus people still took the online training which was "signed". They have the perfect way to claim it's voluntary while using it against you if you don't do it. I wish ALPA had done more about it but they are quite ineffective.


Incidentally, you should see how they are attacking pilots now in their latest email regarding people who aren't paying dues. These clowns will learn the hard way that you don't attack the people who you claim to serve. They are arrogant to assume it will always be an ALPA agency shop and not some other union. It would be one thing if there were 70% people not paying but calling out 4 pilots is just inexcusable and will come back to haunt these guys. Too bad they didn't display the same adversarial relationship towards BJ. These MEC cowards got us a substandard contract but they attack pilots.

Ummm why wouldnít they write those letters. Those four pilots deserve to get those letters.

Bluedriver
02-08-2019, 03:33 PM
Ummm why wouldnít they write those letters. Those four pilots deserve to get those letters.

Agreed. We're a union airline, pay your dues.

pilotpayne
02-08-2019, 05:59 PM
It doesn't matter. It's just one of the dozen places where they force you to. The problem is that it's a contractual obligation since our contract didn't specifically forbid it. The contract outsources to various documents such as the pass riding guide and the Blue Book, all of which they control. Plus people still took the online training which was "signed". They have the perfect way to claim it's voluntary while using it against you if you don't do it. I wish ALPA had done more about it but they are quite ineffective.


Incidentally, you should see how they are attacking pilots now in their latest email regarding people who aren't paying dues. These clowns will learn the hard way that you don't attack the people who you claim to serve. They are arrogant to assume it will always be an ALPA agency shop and not some other union. It would be one thing if there were 70% people not paying but calling out 4 pilots is just inexcusable and will come back to haunt these guys. Too bad they didn't display the same adversarial relationship towards BJ. These MEC cowards got us a substandard contract but they attack pilots.



Dude just pay your bill.

A Pilot
02-08-2019, 06:29 PM
The 4 pilots werenít even named. Personally, I think they should have been.

Gotta love the irony of an anonymous poster calling union officials that put their names on their messages cowards.

pilotpayne
02-08-2019, 07:15 PM
The 4 pilots werenít even named. Personally, I think they should have been.

Gotta love the irony of an anonymous poster calling union officials that put their names on their messages cowards.

He takes irony pills in the morning

SmitteyB
02-09-2019, 12:24 AM
If new hire FOs under our old pay structure can pay them while collecting $2400 take home per month, then a BUS driver with 12+ years can definitely pay their fair share.

This isnít a new thing. UAW doesnít even give members an option. Itís dues check off...period.

hilltopflyer
02-09-2019, 04:22 AM
If new hire FOs under our old pay structure can pay them while collecting $2400 take home per month, then a BUS driver with 12+ years can definitely pay their fair share.

This isnít a new thing. UAW doesnít even give members an option. Itís dues check off...period.

If they donít wanna work for an union airline they can quit. Sorta joined the wrong career if being anti union is a goal

Bluedriver
02-09-2019, 07:04 AM
Dude just pay your bill.

Ok, I'm really starting to think Q is a False Flag MWW anti-union Shark posting Russian troll-farm Bot.

WhistlePig
02-09-2019, 03:14 PM
Ok, I'm really starting to think Q is a False Flag MWW anti-union Shark posting Russian troll-farm Bot.

You may be on to something there

benzoate
02-11-2019, 04:20 AM
Q,

You seem to have lots of opinions but as usual you fail to provide answers or realistic suggestions. Of course this board is internet banter but at some point the complaint should be followed by a suggestion for improvement.
I think I've suffered through the bluthisfere longer than most so the fact that a non-dues paying member could be terminated is a welcome development from my perspective. If you don't like it then seek employment at another carrier that doesnt have that policy and when you find this magical carrier let us know who it is because every major has the same policy.
All you do is complain, you don't volunteer and you pass judgement in favor of those who refuse to support the union.

queue
02-11-2019, 11:53 AM
Dude just pay your bill.


This might surprise you, but I do pay my dues. This clearly isn't about me. I'm just critical of any monopoly of power that exerts unjust pressure on either employees or a peer group whom they claim to help. I'm not blindly on ALPA's side but I am always pro-pilot. I just don't think they need to be just as evil as the employer.

queue
02-11-2019, 12:02 PM
Q,

You seem to have lots of opinions but as usual you fail to provide answers or realistic suggestions. Of course this board is internet banter but at some point the complaint should be followed by a suggestion for improvement.
I think I've suffered through the bluthisfere longer than most so the fact that a non-dues paying member could be terminated is a welcome development from my perspective. If you don't like it then seek employment at another carrier that doesnt have that policy and when you find this magical carrier let us know who it is because every major has the same policy.
All you do is complain, you don't volunteer and you pass judgement in favor of those who refuse to support the union.


It's fair game if you want to criticize me since you have no idea what I do since I don't advertise here, so it doesn't offend me in the slightest bit. But your formulaic criticism also doesn't convince me of your talking points.

However, I'm not a fan of a contract that terminates a pilot's employment because they don't pay dues. I don't like authoritarianism from either the company or another organization (a union). You're just replacing one evil with another. It's ironic that perhaps the strongest contract language is in terms of firing a pilot for not paying dues. Most other language in the contract is wishy-washy at best and has already proven to be exploitable by JB.



I'm not a fan on non-lanyard wearers but it's also not right to persecute them because they are still pilots. I'm sure even the worst of non-lanyard anti-ALPA pilots have still helped you some way or another, even if you have no idea they did. You have to always keep this notion in mind.



The argument of finding employment elsewhere is a tired old argument that doesn't leave room for people who actually want to improve things for pilots. Your solution is to always jump ship for perceived greener pastures? Why not straighten out your own house first? I think that's part of the reason you enjoy your captivity in the existing system that still largely benefits the corporation (e.g. Johanna's $300 profit sharing statement of love to you). Maybe instead of suggesting someone should leave, you should instead consider solving problems, lest you be part of the problem yourself.

queue
02-11-2019, 12:06 PM
The 4 pilots weren’t even named. Personally, I think they should have been.

Gotta love the irony of an anonymous poster calling union officials that put their names on their messages cowards.

The difference is that they are a legally authorized entity. They deal with real money and they help shape and enforce legal constructs. That doesn't compare to an opinion board that has no authority whatsoever. It is vital to remain critical of those in power or else you will become their victims.

Bluedriver
02-11-2019, 12:13 PM
This might surprise you, but I do pay my dues. This clearly isn't about me. I'm just critical of any monopoly of power that exerts unjust pressure on either employees or a peer group whom they claim to help. I'm not blindly on ALPA's side but I am always pro-pilot. I just don't think they need to be just as evil as the employer.

Not buying it. If you are a dues paying member I find it very unlikely that you hold the opinion that pilots should pay dues only if the WANT to.

That scenario doesn't end well for pilots.

queue
02-11-2019, 12:16 PM
Not buying it. If you are a dues paying member I find it very unlikely that you hold the opinion that pilots should pay dues only if the WANT to.

That scenario doesn't end well for pilots.


Unlikely but not impossible, right? My viewpoints are far more complex than you'll gather from simple soundbites.



I'd like to know how this wouldn't end well for pilots? Is there a historical precedent or one of the many false truths people naively believe?

Bluedriver
02-11-2019, 01:14 PM
Unlikely but not impossible, right? My viewpoints are far more complex than you'll gather from simple soundbites.



I'd like to know how this wouldn't end well for pilots? Is there a historical precedent or one of the many false truths people naively believe?

Lots and lots of pilots who don't WANT to pay dues. That means less dues for the union to use on pilots behalf. Result is an underfunded and weak union.

benzoate
02-11-2019, 01:53 PM
It's fair game if you want to criticize me since you have no idea what I do since I don't advertise here, so it doesn't offend me in the slightest bit. But your formulaic criticism also doesn't convince me of your talking points.

However, I'm not a fan of a contract that terminates a pilot's employment because they don't pay dues. I don't like authoritarianism from either the company or another organization (a union). You're just replacing one evil with another. It's ironic that perhaps the strongest contract language is in terms of firing a pilot for not paying dues. Most other language in the contract is wishy-washy at best and has already proven to be exploitable by JB.



I'm not a fan on non-lanyard wearers but it's also not right to persecute them because they are still pilots. I'm sure even the worst of non-lanyard anti-ALPA pilots have still helped you some way or another, even if you have no idea they did. You have to always keep this notion in mind.



The argument of finding employment elsewhere is a tired old argument that doesn't leave room for people who actually want to improve things for pilots. Your solution is to always jump ship for perceived greener pastures? Why not straighten out your own house first? I think that's part of the reason you enjoy your captivity in the existing system that still largely benefits the corporation (e.g. Johanna's $300 profit sharing statement of love to you). Maybe instead of suggesting someone should leave, you should instead consider solving problems, lest you be part of the problem yourself.

Q,

Please donít misunderstand.

You are vocally critical yet provide no sugestions or solutions. There in lies my critique.

In my time at bluejet those refusing to pay dues have done NOTHING to further our jetblue careers, NOTHING. They have blindly supported JetBlueís desire to oppress our careers and therefore I cannot support their desire to undermine our careers. The union is here, it was voted in, they WILL pay dues. Consequently, I voted NO for this POS contract so I must support it although I think itís sheet.

My argument about finding alternative employement was also misunderstood. Criticize jetblue as much as you want but also do something about it. I fully support that. Hell, criticize all you want and donít do sheet but you better pay your fíing dues because that money goes to supporting those who put their time on the line for the membership.

PasserOGas
02-12-2019, 05:48 AM
Lots and lots of pilots who don't WANT to pay dues. That means less dues for the union to use on pilots behalf. Result is an underfunded and weak union.

I'll play devils advocate here. I think we can all agree ALPAs performance has been lackluster at best. Slightly above negligent at worst. Whenever I attempt to use them as a resource I am disappointed. What if there was a way to punish them for this non performance? What if I only paid dues because they were actually worth it?

Std Deviation
02-12-2019, 07:41 AM
I'll play devils advocate here. I think we can all agree ALPAs performance has been lackluster at best. Slightly above negligent at worst. Whenever I attempt to use them as a resource I am disappointed. What if there was a way to punish them for this non performance? What if I only paid dues because they were actually worth it?

I have no children and yet have to pay taxes to educate the offspring of others. It would be awesome if I could adjust my payments based on the quality of graduates from the local public school system. Pay for performance. :D

PasserOGas
02-12-2019, 09:34 AM
I have no children and yet have to pay taxes to educate the offspring of others. It would be awesome if I could adjust my payments based on the quality of graduates from the local public school system. Pay for performance. :D

I get that, but don't you think the union might care about results and cost/benefit a little more if dues were optional? Maybe fewer lobster dinners and chasing meaningless LSA reform and more focus on the stuff that we actually pay them for?

benzoate
02-12-2019, 10:37 AM
I have no children and yet have to pay taxes to educate the offspring of others. It would be awesome if I could adjust my payments based on the quality of graduates from the local public school system. Pay for performance. :D

But canít you argue that living in an area with a good school system increases your property values?

benzoate
02-12-2019, 10:38 AM
I'll play devils advocate here. I think we can all agree ALPAs performance has been lackluster at best. Slightly above negligent at worst. Whenever I attempt to use them as a resource I am disappointed. What if there was a way to punish them for this non performance? What if I only paid dues because they were actually worth it?

And how would you accurately rate performance? Not stiring the pot but adding to the devils advocate idea.

Std Deviation
02-12-2019, 11:36 AM
But canít you argue that living in an area with a good school system increases your property values?

Agreed. Thatís why I approach it tongue in cheek when I describe it as taxation with no representation. We all pay for things we donít directly need that benefit the greater good. Or, that we need irregularly - the police or fire dept - but still pay full price for. Same with ALPA.

Std Deviation
02-12-2019, 11:40 AM
I get that, but don't you think the union might care about results and cost/benefit a little more if dues were optional? Maybe fewer lobster dinners and chasing meaningless LSA reform and more focus on the stuff that we actually pay them for?

I can speak for one committee here that voluntarily attended training with no loss of flight pay compensation. I did some volunteer work and never expensed my meals. Iím a penny pincher when it comes to other peopleís money. Canít speak for everyone of course.

dogpilot
02-12-2019, 01:32 PM
I can speak for one committee here that voluntarily attended training with no loss of flight pay compensation. I did some volunteer work and never expensed my meals. Iím a penny pincher when it comes to other peopleís money. Canít speak for everyone of course.
Youíre an anomaly in the ALPA ranks if the truth ye tell, because having seen firsthand this ideal in many when they begin, but oh how quickly it erodes when the wastefulness becomes the norm. Biggest reason DALPA was in question.

Std Deviation
02-12-2019, 03:33 PM
how quickly it erodes when the wastefulness becomes the norm..

Saw this at a local charity I was donating money to. Discovered board members were using donations to pay for things like cocktails during board meetings. Not cool.

Xtreme87
02-12-2019, 04:07 PM
Saw this at a local charity I was donating money to. Discovered board members were using donations to pay for things like cocktails during board meetings. Not cool.

Most charities do this. I believe only 10% of donations have to go to actual use to be considered a legal charity.

hilltopflyer
02-12-2019, 04:20 PM
Most charities do this. I believe only 10% of donations have to go to actual use to be considered a legal charity.

Yep. Why I only donate to certain places.

ThreeStripe
02-12-2019, 05:53 PM
I get that, but don't you think the union might care about results and cost/benefit a little more if dues were optional? Maybe fewer lobster dinners and chasing meaningless LSA reform and more focus on the stuff that we actually pay them for?

The lobster dinners do need to stop. Take away the expense account and give them per diem!:D



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