Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Flypony
11-23-2018, 08:54 AM
Need any tips anyone can provide. Been flying Falcons most of my career and now flying a Challenger 604. Need any tips on Crosswind landings in this jet. Very different then a Falcon from the feel to the pitch attitude and use of controls.:confused:


galaxy flyer
11-23-2018, 12:37 PM
PM Sent.

GF

sourdough44
11-26-2018, 02:07 PM
I thought it was ‘wing down, top rudder’ for most any plane? I suppose things can change over time.


Proximity
11-26-2018, 02:32 PM
I thought it was ‘wing down, top rudder’ for most any plane? I suppose things can change over time.

Well Falcon's are engineered to fly nice while Bombardier doesn't care.

You're probably trying not to overcontrol, but the 604 has stupid small ailerons with no spoiler assist, and the gear doesn't like side-load. Likely you need larger and more aggressive roll inputs. Wing down top rudder and don't try to hold it off in the flare because you can run out of aileron.

JamesNoBrakes
11-26-2018, 08:32 PM
I thought it was ‘wing down, top rudder’ for most any plane? I suppose things can change over time.

Naw, you'll get more youtube views with "land in a 30° crab and let maintenance figure it out!".

galaxy flyer
11-27-2018, 05:39 AM
I thought it was ‘wing down, top rudder’ for most any plane? I suppose things can change over time.

Careful with any plane having geometry limits. 8⁰ will start scraping tips on a C-5 and a Global if get the body angle a little above normal. I’ve done several investigations on scrapes. Surprisingly, many are no where near the demonstrated crosswind limits.

Decrab, really a combination of decrab with a few degrees of wing low, is the way to go.

GF

galaxy flyer
11-27-2018, 05:41 AM
Well Falcon's are engineered to fly nice while Bombardier doesn't care.

You're probably trying not to overcontrol, but the 604 has stupid small ailerons with no spoiler assist, and the gear doesn't like side-load. Likely you need larger and more aggressive roll inputs. Wing down top rudder and don't try to hold it off in the flare because you can run out of aileron.

It was actually Bill Lear and Canadair that didn’t care. It’s a 40-year old design.

usmc-sgt
11-27-2018, 06:11 AM
Careful with any plane having geometry limits. 8⁰ will start scraping tips on a C-5 and a Global if get the body angle a little above normal. I’ve done several investigations on scrapes. Surprisingly, many are no where near the demonstrated crosswind limits.

Decrab, really a combination of decrab with a few degrees of wing low, is the way to go.

GF

That’s how the 320 will do it in an auto land. It will wait for what seems like an eternity while it’s 10’ AGL in a big crab before correcting. It then kicks in a steady (but heavy) dose of rudder to swing it around in a hurry with slight wing down. It doesn’t land sideloaded or off centerline so I tend to copy it.

Adlerdriver
11-27-2018, 12:13 PM
I thought it was ‘wing down, top rudder’ for most any plane?
I know it all kind of happens together, but I’ve always put in the rudder first. The proper amount of rudder aligns the a/c with the runway. You can’t know how much wing to put down in order to kill the drift until you have the correct amount of rudder in.

galaxy flyer
11-27-2018, 04:25 PM
I know it all kind of happens together, but I’ve always put in the rudder first. The proper amount of rudder aligns the a/c with the runway. You can’t know how much wing to put down in order to kill the drift until you have the correct amount of rudder in.

Were it only flown that way! In investigating 12 wingtip scrapes, only two occurred when the winds were close to the demonstrated crosswind component. Several were with less than 10 knots cross component. Seems some just roll in bank mechanically and as long as the nose is straight—good to land. Not so much. And I’ve flown with a couple that fly that way.

GF

sourdough44
12-06-2018, 05:21 AM
Yes, at some point, the simple wind down, top rudder won’t be enough. Of course that varies with type. Then we have more and more airports going to all parallel runways, leaving pilots to do the rest.

Once you get North of 25-30 knots of crosswind, landing with some crab may come into play. One can do a short dance with the upwind maingear, but watch out for gusts at the wrong time.

Adlerdriver
12-06-2018, 07:28 AM
Yes, at some point, the simple wind down, top rudder won’t be enough.
Maybe it's this term "top rudder" that's leading people astray. If you're wings level, in a crab, when you begin to use rudder to align the fuselage with the runway, there is no "top rudder".

JohnBurke
12-06-2018, 01:29 PM
Boeing (and MD, before) has been deadset against landing the MD11 in a crab or with any sideload, understandably so. The 747 has had guidance for decades to go ahead and take the crab rather than fight the mass close to the ground or risk striking an outboard nacelle. I forget the number, but the MD11 can take about 12 degrees of bank before a strike with full strut extension, but only five when fully compressed...so it needs to be landed flat.

Just recently Boeing revised their position and came out to say it's better to land crabbed than to cause any instability in the flare or risk getting into an oscillation in the flare. The MD, perhaps more than any other aircraft, is particularly subject to problems in the last 50' of altitude when landing...most of the losses have occurred there, and it has one of the highest loss rates for any transport category aircraft type. Consequently, the landing is a fairly critical time, and of that, the point from 50' to touchdown represents the moment that determines success or crash (everything else is set up for that, and in all the business we practice stable approaches. It's just that on the MD-11, it can be a perfectly stable approach, lost in the last 50').

Sideloading the gear is never preferable, but all things being relative, it's preferable to throwing a wing down, especially on airplanes with pods or nacelles below the wing. It's common to "kick out" the crab and make a transition in the flare, but on the more sensitive types, it can also destabilize the landing, and in some cases, it's preferable not to go there, or visit with great caution.

I realize the discussion is specific to the Challenger, but it's run somewhat afield into a discussion of crosswind technique. Let's not even get into a talk about conventional gear.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1