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CodyJude
11-28-2018, 08:17 AM
Gama Pilots,

Thank you in advance for sharing your answers and experiences.

Iím looking at joining Gama with the focuses being on schedule, quality of life, and benefits. Iíll be coming in as a Captain with quite a bit of corporate and 135 experience over the span of 20 years. Not looking to achieve Airlines. I am a corporate pilot. The pay seems to be OK, and the benefits seem very nice, but itís always the little nuansecs that can make or break a job.

Iíd like to ask the current pilot pool about their experiences.

Is the 8 on 6 off schedule worth how hard you work during the 8 on?

How hard do you actually work? Legs, hours, etc.

Are the hotel accommodations nice?

Do you receive crew meals?

How is the airline travel back and forth?

How is the equipment?

Do you have to change the Ďhoney potí yourself every leg?

What are things to be aware of when making the decision, that isnít advertised during the hiring process?

Are you basically looking towards greener fields, or do you feel content to stay with Gama for a long time?

Anything and everything that can be added to the conversation to aid in a decision is deeply appreciated. Thank you!


1212135
11-28-2018, 08:34 AM
1. 8/6 pretty good. It depends on which aircraft your on and location of the airplane on how hard you fly. Some days 4 or 5 legs some days 1 leg.
2.same thing some days are 4-5 legs others days you may sit hotel reserve. Just depends on demand and time of year. Itís not 8 days of 10 hr flying by any means. Doesnít mean you wonít have a long day or two every once in a while.
3. Mostly Hilton/ Marriott a few IHG thrown in. Some BFE locations it can very. But we are talking one stop light towns.
4.If you have long days with not enough time to get food they will either get you a crew meal or get you Uber eats. But if you have a 3 hr break they expect you to get your own food.
5. Equipment very good and most well maintained.
6.Yes-But not every leg... most customers donít even use it, so why change it. The average flight leg is 1.2hrs. Most people unless drunk can hold it that long.
7.Gama wheelsup is in major expansion mode so all the fun that comes with growing pains of a company. Thereís a lot of hiring and new HQ employees
8.it depends on your age and dreams. I could easily stay 20 years or go to a major.

hdgbug
11-28-2018, 09:56 AM
The only thing I might add to this response - People come in expecting to get to the jet quickly. The guys I've seen go to the jet recently have been here 3+ years. I expect that number to go up once all the Xs (which are coming slowly) are on property. If you're not content flying a King Air and dealing with those realities (lav service, no ground AC, climbing over passengers and their dogs, etc.), this isn't the place for you.

I would also check out the Gama/Wheels Up threads in the 135 section. Wheels Up is not a fractional program. You may get more responses over there as well.

1. 8/6 pretty good. It depends on which aircraft your on and location of the airplane on how hard you fly. Some days 4 or 5 legs some days 1 leg.
2.same thing some days are 4-5 legs others days you may sit hotel reserve. Just depends on demand and time of year. Itís not 8 days of 10 hr flying by any means. Doesnít mean you wonít have a long day or two every once in a while.
3. Mostly Hilton/ Marriott a few IHG thrown in. Some BFE locations it can very. But we are talking one stop light towns.
4.If you have long days with not enough time to get food they will either get you a crew meal or get you Uber eats. But if you have a 3 hr break they expect you to get your own food.
5. Equipment very good and most well maintained.
6.Yes-But not every leg... most customers donít even use it, so why change it. The average flight leg is 1.2hrs. Most people unless drunk can hold it that long.
7.Gama wheelsup is in major expansion mode so all the fun that comes with growing pains of a company. Thereís a lot of hiring and new HQ employees
8.it depends on your age and dreams. I could easily stay 20 years or go to a major.


Guard
11-29-2018, 04:07 AM
my experience was great at Gama, I was also left seat, not bad pay (NJA's new TA pays right seat about the same as left seat at Gama though) I got the feeling that if you are in Wheelsup you pretty much stay Wheelsup. What concerned me is that Wheelsup made a big deal about making sure you know you are not their employee and they can walk away from Gama whenever they want. Fun people but just realize it's a lot of work, no dispatchers, you file your own paperwork and flight plans, you empty the ****ter etc.

hdgbug
11-29-2018, 10:30 AM
my experience was great at Gama, I was also left seat, not bad pay (NJA's new TA pays right seat about the same as left seat at Gama though) I got the feeling that if you are in Wheelsup you pretty much stay Wheelsup. What concerned me is that Wheelsup made a big deal about making sure you know you are not their employee and they can walk away from Gama whenever they want. Fun people but just realize it's a lot of work, no dispatchers, you file your own paperwork and flight plans, you empty the ****ter etc.

You're correct that it seems from some people's evaluations that the new TA from Netjets means that their FO pay could end up being the same as Gama left seat. The big difference is that it a lot of soft money at Netjets where it's all salary at Gama. For some people having the money guaranteed is a big factor.

You're also correct that Wheels Up could leave Gama. I never got the impression that they wanted to make sure The way Wheels Up's COO described the contract with Gama was that Wheels Up has to give Gama a years notice of leaving. So barring anything crazy, there would at least be that much notice. Also, looking at the reality, it would be pretty darn hard to up and move 80+ aircraft and all those operations to another operator. Not saying it's impossible, but I would think it would take a lot before trying to make that change.

Guard
11-29-2018, 08:15 PM
You're correct that it seems from some people's evaluations that the new TA from Netjets means that their FO pay could end up being the same as Gama left seat. The big difference is that it a lot of soft money at Netjets where it's all salary at Gama. For some people having the money guaranteed is a big factor.

You're also correct that Wheels Up could leave Gama. I never got the impression that they wanted to make sure The way Wheels Up's COO described the contract with Gama was that Wheels Up has to give Gama a years notice of leaving. So barring anything crazy, there would at least be that much notice. Also, looking at the reality, it would be pretty darn hard to up and move 80+ aircraft and all those operations to another operator. Not saying it's impossible, but I would think it would take a lot before trying to make that change.

May sound crazy but I think WheelsUp is successful enough that NJA could purchase a part of it if DK would allow it, which he may, he likes their money!

Quagmire24
12-03-2018, 06:00 PM
For those currently at Wheels Up have you seem them hire career changers who have the ATP time requirements but experience is solely Part 91 and minimal twin time? Also any insight into the interview process?

Guard
12-04-2018, 04:28 PM
For those currently at Wheels Up have you seem them hire career changers who have the ATP time requirements but experience is solely Part 91 and minimal twin time? Also any insight into the interview process?

Interview lasted 30 minutes and they told me via Skype we were hired, good people

hydra
12-05-2018, 06:31 PM
May sound crazy but I think WheelsUp is successful enough that NJA could purchase a part of it if DK would allow it, which he may, he likes their money!

Ain't gonna happen. The real money is in the larger cabins. The only reason NJA keeps the small cabins is to entice pax to move to larger cabins. And WU has a lot of NJA's discarded airframes. No way will NJA want those things back.

Guard
12-06-2018, 05:42 AM
Ain't gonna happen. The real money is in the larger cabins. The only reason NJA keeps the small cabins is to entice pax to move to larger cabins. And WU has a lot of NJA's discarded airframes. No way will NJA want those things back.

Probably right, their target customers are completely different, they are pretty clear at NJA that they charge a "premium" and the average customer is worth north of $25 million. WU is looking for the group of Doctor's who want to have a fun golf trip or go to a college football game.

Allegheny
12-09-2018, 04:45 PM
Guard is right. The strength of the franchise is that the King Air runs about a grand less an hour than the jets. It is not a fractional in that it does not require a large outlay to "join the club." WheelsUp is all 135, not 91K.


WheelsUp is targeting a more dollar conscious customer, but the good news is that there are many more of them. When you get into the big cabin airplanes you are competing over a much smaller customer base.



Netjets was originally conceived to attract small company's that didn't think they could afford to operate their own aircraft. Instead of buying a complete airplane you could buy a share of one. Wheels up is a membership organization, you can even buy a membership at Costco. Wheels Up Memberships Available From Costco | Jet Charter News Alerts, Broker-Operator Directory ? FlightList PRO (http://flightlistpro.com/private-jet-charter/wheels-up-memberships-available-from-costco/)


Here is the basic cost breakdown. [Membership regular price for individuals is $17,500 annually and corporations $29,500 annually according to Corporate Jet Investor. Annual dues (starting second year) are then $8,500 for individuals and $14,500 for corporations, plus a fixed hourly price for each hour flown Ė the cost per hour of getting on the King Air is $4,295 per hour and the Citation Excel/XLS is $7,495 per hour according to a report from the private aviation industry resource.]


The WheelsUp model is much closer to the "Marquis Card" model. That's no coincidence as WheelsUp CEO Kenny Dicther invented the concept. It was so successful that NetJets bought it. Marquis Jet Card | The Black Card | Centurion Card | Visa Black Card | Luxury Credit Cards (http://www.luxuryplastic.com/marquis-jet-card/)


WheelsUp is attracting the lower end of the market but it is a much larger market to begin with.

MWilliams
12-09-2018, 05:02 PM
It was so successful that NetJets bought it. Marquis Jet Card | The Black Card | Centurion Card | Visa Black Card | Luxury Credit Cards (http://www.luxuryplastic.com/marquis-jet-card/).

NetJets didnít buy MarquisJet because it was successful. Kenny didnít fit in with Sokol and Sokol pushed Kenny out.

Guard
12-10-2018, 02:34 AM
NetJets didnít buy MarquisJet because it was successful. Kenny didnít fit in with Sokol and Sokol pushed Kenny out.

Marquis is making NJA a lot of money of you believe management!

MWilliams
12-10-2018, 04:11 AM
Marquis is making NJA a lot of money of you believe management!

Today that may be true, but in 2009 Marquis returned a lot of aircraft and was a huge money loser for NetJets. The card sales dried up and put a big chunk of the 495 on the street. I like Kenny, he always seemed like he cared. That doesnít change the history that Marquis is a short term revenue stream that can be unstable.

CodyJude
12-10-2018, 04:42 AM
2009 probably had something to do with a crashing US economy, not a form of membership one would think.

MWilliams
12-10-2018, 05:11 AM
I am not saying that MarquisJet is a bad business. Iím responding to the person that said Marquis was bought by NetJets because it was successful. There was a lot more that was going on, including the 2009 recession.

bjtdrvr
12-10-2018, 05:47 AM
Ha. And KR from FO put in a bid for Marquis at that time as well I am sure NJ didn't want him stepping and taking that business from them even though it did lose money after the market crash.

Guard
12-11-2018, 03:11 AM
I am not saying that MarquisJet is a bad business. Iím responding to the person that said Marquis was bought by NetJets because it was successful. There was a lot more that was going on, including the 2009 recession.

Kenny is a brilliant sales man, he and his high school buddies have created a great business with WU, but like Marquis Card he puts all the risk on someone else, this time Gamma!

Brody
12-25-2018, 10:49 AM
Gama Pilots,

Thank you in advance for sharing your answers and experiences.

Iím looking at joining Gama with the focuses being on schedule, quality of life, and benefits. Iíll be coming in as a Captain with quite a bit of corporate and 135 experience over the span of 20 years. Not looking to achieve Airlines. I am a corporate pilot. The pay seems to be OK, and the benefits seem very nice, but itís always the little nuansecs that can make or break a job.

Iíd like to ask the current pilot pool about their experiences.

Is the 8 on 6 off schedule worth how hard you work during the 8 on?

How hard do you actually work? Legs, hours, etc.

Are the hotel accommodations nice?

Do you receive crew meals?

How is the airline travel back and forth?

How is the equipment?

Do you have to change the Ďhoney potí yourself every leg?

What are things to be aware of when making the decision, that isnít advertised during the hiring process?

Are you basically looking towards greener fields, or do you feel content to stay with Gama for a long time?

Anything and everything that can be added to the conversation to aid in a decision is deeply appreciated. Thank you!

I think others have answered most of your questions, so I'll keep this short -

I was hired over the past year as an FO. I, along with most of my class, resigned within a few months. They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise. They hired most (all?) of my class over the phone - no interview. My personal opinion is they are a violation waiting to happen. Lots of corners were cut during my time there. Chief pilot has criminal rap sheet (look it up). If he (or a few others in mgmt) have anything against you - your chances for upgrade are minimal. This didn't happen to me (wasn't there long enough), but several senior instructors warned me about it. It seemed like everyone was trying to leave - or at least the ones who were young enough to go to a 121.

There are some positives - but I felt the negatives far outweighed them.

Just one person's opinion here, FWIW.

Starbucks
12-26-2018, 08:50 AM
They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise....Lots of corners were cut during my time there.

Curious. How so?

blulavboy
12-26-2018, 08:51 AM
Does anyone remember who we use for uniforms? Was it Twinhills?

hdgbug
12-26-2018, 09:00 AM
Does anyone remember who we use for uniforms? Was it Twinhills?

Yes, Twinhill is correct.

Busdriver91
12-26-2018, 10:01 AM
I think others have answered most of your questions, so I'll keep this short -

I was hired over the past year as an FO. I, along with most of my class, resigned within a few months. They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise. They hired most (all?) of my class over the phone - no interview. My personal opinion is they are a violation waiting to happen. Lots of corners were cut during my time there. Chief pilot has criminal rap sheet (look it up). If he (or a few others in mgmt) have anything against you - your chances for upgrade are minimal. This didn't happen to me (wasn't there long enough), but several senior instructors warned me about it. It seemed like everyone was trying to leave - or at least the ones who were young enough to go to a 121.

There are some positives - but I felt the negatives far outweighed them.

Just one person's opinion here, FWIW.

You mind laying some facts down, instead of personal opinion? Cutting corners and not being safety focused goes against everything I have experienced with this company.

EMAW
12-26-2018, 01:31 PM
GAMA expects the work to get done, but in almost 3 years I’ve never been asked to do anything illegal or unsafe. And if they did, I’d go to my super or straight up the ladder to the DO and get things resolved. More often than not our dispatchers and flight followers are way more conservative than I’m used to.

Das Auto
12-27-2018, 07:20 AM
They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise. Lots of corners were cut during my time there.
.

This is a completely false statement. This place is by no means perfect but to say they are unsafe and cut corners is B.S. If anything they are overly cautious when it comes to safety. Their hiring mins are high, the equipment is new and well maintained, they pay the subscriptions for the XM-weather & safe taxi etc, and all pilots go to flight safety for recurrent training every 6 months. We have a comprehensive SMS and ASAP program too.

People have their own different reasons for leaving here, (mostly greener pastures calling) but cutting corners when it comes safety is not one of them.

Packrat
12-29-2018, 06:52 AM
Das,

Funny, I was thinking the very same thing.

captjns
12-29-2018, 02:15 PM
You are by far the biggest muppet ever to grace the boards of APC. Your G-IV? Ha ha. I guess flight simulator has a G-IV on there now. Do you set the autopilot on when you take off from Teteboro then go to bed and wake up in time to actually land it in London?
I noticed that you and your high testosterone real man buddy John both joined this forum this month, and have a similar post tally. Call me a doo doo head, but if I we're a betting man I'd say you're the same delta bravo!

Please refrain from posting further about a company or a profession that you obviously know nothing about.

Brian and his friend John appear to be trolling a bit. Seems to be working based responses to their posts. They’re roiling the pot on other threads too.

Das Auto
12-29-2018, 07:02 PM
Brian and his friend John appear to be trolling a bit. Seems to be working based responses to their posts. Theyíre roiling the pot on other threads too.

Yep. Probably some teenage brat posting nonsense on airline forums in between squeezing his pimples in front of the mirror!

Packrat
12-30-2018, 04:50 AM
If they only knew captjns like I know captjns. The trolls WISH they had his experience/qualifications.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Brody
12-31-2018, 03:19 PM
You mind laying some facts down, instead of personal opinion? Cutting corners and not being safety focused goes against everything I have experienced with this company.

Yes - I do mind.

Providing details will likely get me recognized - I'd prefer to remain anonymous. I'm sure there are plenty of pilots there who have had radically different experiences than I did. I know a violation when I see one . . . I've been in this industry long enough. I wasn't the only one in my class with this concern - which is why most of them quit once they were exposed to the day-to-day operation.

I have nothing to gain by posting this - a pilot asked for opinions, and I took the time to give mine. If you don't like it, then move to the next post. I'm just glad I didn't stay - I'm told it hasn't changed

Brody
12-31-2018, 07:37 PM
This is a completely false statement. This place is by no means perfect but to say they are unsafe and cut corners is B.S. If anything they are overly cautious when it comes to safety. Their hiring mins are high, the equipment is new and well maintained, they pay the subscriptions for the XM-weather & safe taxi etc, and all pilots go to flight safety for recurrent training every 6 months. We have a comprehensive SMS and ASAP program too.

People have their own different reasons for leaving here, (mostly greener pastures calling) but cutting corners when it comes safety is not one of them.

False?

I was there - I know what I saw. And by no means was I the only one who saw it.

Hiring mins? Many of us were hired over the phone. Had things been different, I probably would have stayed. I've made a few stops in my career . . . I wasn't impressed with this place.

Guard
12-31-2018, 10:01 PM
False?

I was there - I know what I saw. And by no means was I the only one who saw it.

Hiring mins? Many of us were hired over the phone. Had things been different, I probably would have stayed. I've made a few stops in my career . . . I wasn't impressed with this place.


I would not call the place unsafe, but its a big boy program, they give you the tools to be safe but its in no means a 121 operations, you're your own dispatcher, everything is on you, that said, you have the tools to do the job. Flight followers are basically maintenance washers. Lot of work though if your use to having a dispatcher watching your every move etc.

Starbucks
01-01-2019, 05:15 AM
Yes - I do mind.

Providing details will likely get me recognized

So what? You don’t work at Gama anymore. If you’re going to torch a company then give details.

Das Auto
01-02-2019, 02:39 PM
False?

I was there - I know what I saw. And by no means was I the only one who saw it.

Hiring mins? Many of us were hired over the phone. Had things been different, I probably would have stayed.

If you didn't meet the hiring mins you wouldn't have been hired would you?

So you're saying that if you weren't hired over the phone you would have stayed? Why accept the job in the first place when they called you if that's what upset you so much?

You know what you saw? Go ahead and tell us then. Did you bring your "safety" concerns to your supervisor? Submit a report to the dedicated safety department? My guess is that you didn't. Instead you make vague and false accusations on an anonymous forum.

Brody
01-05-2019, 08:38 PM
If you didn't meet the hiring mins you wouldn't have been hired would you?

So you're saying that if you weren't hired over the phone you would have stayed? Why accept the job in the first place when they called you if that's what upset you so much?

You know what you saw? Go ahead and tell us then. Did you bring your "safety" concerns to your supervisor? Submit a report to the dedicated safety department? My guess is that you didn't. Instead you make vague and false accusations on an anonymous forum.

False?

Because you're apparently smarter than everyone else - even smarter than those who might have witnessed things that you didn't.

Funny how nearly all of my class quit within the first few months. I guess I wasn't the only one who saw the culture for what it was.

I'm willing to concede that you didn't - or haven't - seen anything that alarmed you. What I find interesting is that you can't give me the same courtesy.

Starbucks
01-06-2019, 05:12 AM
False?

Because you're apparently smarter than everyone else - even smarter than those who might have witnessed things that you didn't.

Funny how nearly all of my class quit within the first few months. I guess I wasn't the only one who saw the culture for what it was.

I'm willing to concede that you didn't - or haven't - seen anything that alarmed you. What I find interesting is that you can't give me the same courtesy.

So no example, huh? Just torching. Fine. That's what most of APC users do. Just badmouth with no evidence.

1212135
01-06-2019, 05:57 AM
Most Companies ( Even non airline companies) hire via Skype,FaceTime,etc. welcome to the 2000s.

Your whole class quit.... It wouldnít hv anything to do with a pilot shortage and SWA,FedEx,Delta,American,Atlas,Spirit,United,UPS,A llegiant, and Regionals hiring and offering up to 58,000 dollars of bonuses.....WOULD IT????

I get it your frustrated about something that you didnt like. But go to the Delta forum or any greener pasture airline, and there are pilot *****ing over there about company contract abuse.

As any good pilot would do and if there really is unsafe working conditions say NO!

Iím sorry if GAMA made you fly IFR, clean a toilet every now and then, didnít give you a 3 day vacation in Keywest, and made you file your own flight plan. But welcome to the 135 world..... Itís obvious yoru a true blue 121 loyalist. Where They have a person to do everything for you besides sit there and manage the FMS.

Iíll give you some free advice. I wouldnít try to get on at Netjets,Flexjets,XOjet, and any 135 carrier. They all besides Netjet ( Which has dispatchers for flight planning) will operate the same way. All of them have paying customers that some time want to fly out of a city thatís IFR conditions and want a clean plane.

Brody
01-06-2019, 07:42 AM
Most Companies ( Even non airline companies) hire via Skype,FaceTime,etc. welcome to the 2000s.

Your whole class quit.... It wouldnít hv anything to do with a pilot shortage and SWA,FedEx,Delta,American,Atlas,Spirit,United,UPS,A llegiant, and Regionals hiring and offering up to 58,000 dollars of bonuses.....WOULD IT????

I get it your frustrated about something that you didnt like. But go to the Delta forum or any greener pasture airline, and there are pilot *****ing over there about company contract abuse.

As any good pilot would do and if there really is unsafe working conditions say NO!

Iím sorry if GAMA made you fly IFR, clean a toilet every now and then, didnít give you a 3 day vacation in Keywest, and made you file your own flight plan. But welcome to the 135 world..... Itís obvious yoru a true blue 121 loyalist. Where They have a person to do everything for you besides sit there and manage the FMS.

Iíll give you some free advice. I wouldnít try to get on at Netjets,Flexjets,XOjet, and any 135 carrier. They all besides Netjet ( Which has dispatchers for flight planning) will operate the same way. All of them have paying customers that some time want to fly out of a city thatís IFR conditions and want a clean plane.

I'll dumb this down so you can understand it.


A prospective pilot for WU asked on a public forum for opinions from those who have worked (or are working) there.

Since I worked there, I offered my opinion. Some of you did - others didn't.

If you'll notice, I didn't attack anyone's opinion. Nor do I think I'm so clairvoyant that I know what other opinion-givers should have seen (or not seen) while working there.

Nor did I attack anyone's qualifications.

Nor did I make assumptions about the other posters.

Honestly, I didn't give others' opinions a second thought.

Why? Because . . . (wait for it) . . . I DON'T CARE if you share my opinion - or if our opinions are diametrically-opposed.

I just tried to do the person a favor - the same favor we've all asked before starting with a new company. You collect several opinions, weigh them based on their relevancy, and try to make an informed decision.

Now, if I were this person who originally asked the question . . . and I read some of your responses to my initial post where I stated my opinion . . . I would have serious misgivings about the pilots who fly there. Clearly, they don't tolerate differing opinions.

Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

But hey - if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me, then please continue.

And if you think I care about your opinion, please reread this post

1212135
01-06-2019, 08:32 AM
And a bunch of us are trying to inform new prospective pilots that what your saying maybe a far fetched story. I would absolutely defend you if you gave a clear reason why, but We asked for examples we donít get any. But we are to believe something we donít even know from you. Did managment ask you to fly below mins, fly a broken plane, lie on paperwork, put you in a holiday inn express instead of a Hilton, ask you to clean a plane, run naked down the street, do loops in the plane?????????

We have no idea if this is an HR problem or an FAA problem. So you look like a fool know matter how much you donít care about what we say.

Most classes at any company your lucky to have 50% of the class there after 6 months for various reason: Drop outs, Wash outs, Delta offers you a job, family situation has changed. So to make foolish claims they all left bc of one mysterious incident that you can even conceal with general things like ď I was supposed to fly from XXX-YYY the weather was 230/45G99 M1/4sm Ovc001// And managment told me if I donít theyd fire me and put me in jailĒ..... Makes you look stupid.

Hey I bash former companies all the time but I give clear precise reasons so a newbie can determine if this one pilots point of view would happen to me would I want to go threw it.

Iím pretty sure every pilot commenting on the post wants to believe you and address on going problems but with out any type of reasoning we have no way to make this into a company youíd want to come back in a few years if things were to change.

Letís get down to facts:
1.We are 8/6 if thatís not something you can deal with donít apply here.
2. Like other companies instead of buy a 500.00 plane ticket. They choose to use Skype FaceTime and or other computer tools to do an interview. If this is your issue I feel sorry for you.
3. You will fly King Airs like all planes they do have maintenance issues from time to time. They are not unsafe or being held together with duck tape.
4. The pay scales are up front when you apply. Take or leave it.
5. All family insurance is covered.
6. Yes they expect you to work as in : clean the plane restock the plane,load bags, do flight planning, check oil.
7. People from my class have left, one to fly for Delta the other a part 91 operator offered him a job to work M-F at an airport 5 miles from his house. GAMA did nothing wrong in both those case. So to insist 25% of my class quit with in 4 months because of how GAMA is would be a lie.

And itís obvious you care about my post if you responded to it so nice try!!

Das Auto
01-06-2019, 09:25 AM
I'll dumb this down so you can understand it.


A prospective pilot for WU asked on a public forum for opinions from those who have worked (or are working) there.

Since I worked there, I offered my opinion. Some of you did - others didn't.

If you'll notice, I didn't attack anyone's opinion. Nor do I think I'm so clairvoyant that I know what other opinion-givers should have seen (or not seen) while working there.

Nor did I attack anyone's qualifications.

Nor did I make assumptions about the other posters.

Honestly, I didn't give others' opinions a second thought.

Why? Because . . . (wait for it) . . . I DON'T CARE if you share my opinion - or if our opinions are diametrically-opposed.

I just tried to do the person a favor - the same favor we've all asked before starting with a new company. You collect several opinions, weigh them based on their relevancy, and try to make an informed decision.

Now, if I were this person who originally asked the question . . . and I read some of your responses to my initial post where I stated my opinion . . . I would have serious misgivings about the pilots who fly there. Clearly, they don't tolerate differing opinions.

Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

But hey - if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me, then please continue.

And if you think I care about your opinion, please reread this post

It's also worth noting that several guys who have left here have come back. One was in my class, one was my initial IOE captain. Fortunately for those guys they were smart enough to leave on good terms and were welcomed back. It appears that you may have burned that bridge now with your false accusations on a public forum.

I'm about to enter my 5th year at Gama and for sure have days that have frustrated me, but NEVER because I was asked to do anything unsafe.
The minute that happens my resume will be spread like strip club fliers on the Vegas strip!

Legitimate gripes are fair game for perspective applicants, but spreading false rumors of a poor safety culture is doing a disservice to them.

Busdriver91
01-06-2019, 10:21 AM
I'll dumb this down so you can understand it.


A prospective pilot for WU asked on a public forum for opinions from those who have worked (or are working) there.

Since I worked there, I offered my opinion. Some of you did - others didn't.

If you'll notice, I didn't attack anyone's opinion. Nor do I think I'm so clairvoyant that I know what other opinion-givers should have seen (or not seen) while working there.

Nor did I attack anyone's qualifications.

Nor did I make assumptions about the other posters.

Honestly, I didn't give others' opinions a second thought.

Why? Because . . . (wait for it) . . . I DON'T CARE if you share my opinion - or if our opinions are diametrically-opposed.

I just tried to do the person a favor - the same favor we've all asked before starting with a new company. You collect several opinions, weigh them based on their relevancy, and try to make an informed decision.

Now, if I were this person who originally asked the question . . . and I read some of your responses to my initial post where I stated my opinion . . . I would have serious misgivings about the pilots who fly there. Clearly, they don't tolerate differing opinions.

Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

But hey - if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me, then please continue.

And if you think I care about your opinion, please reread this post

Let me break it down for you. We (current Gama employees) are upset with your posts because every single one of us has had an ablosultely different experience than you describe. We are proud to work here and donít want false information making its way around.
Oh and by the way, the mere fact that you keep reposting means YOU CARE!

USMCFLYR
01-06-2019, 11:39 AM
Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

And you expect to find this group of NON-know-it-alls where in aviation?

Aviation is mainly populated with know-it-all Type A personalities.

I'll agree with your post that all you did was give your opinion; but you really should back it up with some details.

You went there. I'll assume that you checked it out prior to joining WU. You obviously saw something that you liked and accepted the job.

In this hiring environment; it is good to see people moving on up the ladder which is what most (not all) of the pilots going to WU are probably there to do. It is hard to believe that you would actually know the specific reasons for every person in your new hire class leaving - so your contention that everyone saw something unsafe and bailed at the same time doesn't seem logical.

On this board - which is full of positive and negative opinions; WU doesn't seem to have that reputation - so your's is more out of left field than usual and probably even more of a reason to give some specific details to these safety violations that you grieved with the company. You don't work there anymore and therefore have no reason not to share if you believe they are important enough to warn off other aspiring pilots who are trying to gain experience to move on up the ladder too - like yourself.

Brody
01-06-2019, 12:41 PM
Let me break it down for you. We (current Gama employees) are upset with your posts because every single one of us has had an ablosultely different experience than you describe. We are proud to work here and donít want false information making its way around.
Oh and by the way, the mere fact that you keep reposting means YOU CARE!


So how many WU pilots do you speak for? Give me an actual number.

I'm assuming, based on your statement, that you've spoken to all of them, right?

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

1212135
01-06-2019, 12:52 PM
So how many WU pilots do you speak for? Give me an actual number.

I'm assuming, based on your statement, that you've spoken to all of them, right?

And we're supposed to take you seriously?

Mark me as one!

Anyone who reads this is gonna realize your a 1% who ****ed off and offers no real insight. Iíd be laughing at you if I were a prospective pilot. Now if you didnít hide your ď informationĒ declassified of course because you feel like WU has lawyers chasing you around with gag orders. A pilot might value your opinion rather than laugh at you.

Brody
01-06-2019, 01:00 PM
And you expect to find this group of NON-know-it-alls where in aviation?

Aviation is mainly populated with know-it-all Type A personalities.

I'll agree with your post that all you did was give your opinion; but you really should back it up with some details.

You went there. I'll assume that you checked it out prior to joining WU. You obviously saw something that you liked and accepted the job.

In this hiring environment; it is good to see people moving on up the ladder which is what most (not all) of the pilots going to WU are probably there to do. It is hard to believe that you would actually know the specific reasons for every person in your new hire class leaving - so your contention that everyone saw something unsafe and bailed at the same time doesn't seem logical.

On this board - which is full of positive and negative opinions; WU doesn't seem to have that reputation - so your's is more out of left field than usual and probably even more of a reason to give some specific details to these safety violations that you grieved with the company. You don't work there anymore and therefore have no reason not to share if you believe they are important enough to warn off other aspiring pilots who are trying to gain experience to move on up the ladder too - like yourself.

My original response was to the individual who ASKED for the info.

I took a few minutes out of my day to state my opinion of WU.

Then the dog-piling started. It's quite amusing, actually. Apparently I've struck a nerve.

It is YOUR OPINION that I should give details to (ostensibly) back up my opinion - which was to another individual, not to you.

I disagree.

I saw what I saw. That's good enough for me. And I was in touch with the individuals in my class, all of whom told me why they were bailing out of Gama. Again, I heard what I heard. Good enough for me.

The fact that you don't believe me is irrelevant.

I state my opinion, and several of you indicate that its not a valid opinion unless I provide specifics.

But when you state yours, it's correct by default?

This is comical. And sadly, it's typical

1212135
01-06-2019, 01:04 PM
My original response was to the individual who ASKED for the info.

I took a few minutes out of my day to state my opinion of WU.

Then the dog-piling started. It's quite amusing, actually. Apparently I've struck a nerve.

It is YOUR OPINION that I should give details to (ostensibly) back up my opinion - which was to another individual, not to you.

I disagree.

I saw what I saw. That's good enough for me. And I was in touch with the individuals in my class, all of whom told me why they were bailing out of Gama. Again, I heard what I heard. Good enough for me.

The fact that you don't believe me is irrelevant.

I state my opinion, and several of you indicate that its not a valid opinion unless I provide specifics.

But when you state yours, it's correct by default?

This is comical. And sadly, it's typical

I donít think you understand your making a direct serious accusation about a company. Not simply stating an objectionable opinion.

5 different pilots appear to work for WU calling your bluff and you still donít fold. You have 0 back up on any claims. Why dont you take a hint this company is not unsafe. In fact itís run relatively the correct way. You just donít like there rules. And thatís the long and short of it Boo hoo.

Brody
01-06-2019, 01:09 PM
I donít think you understand your making a direct serious accusation about a company. Not simply stating an objectionable opinion.

I'm merely stating an opinion, just like you are. It's YOUR opinion that what I've experienced at Gama requires a detailed explanation.

That's fine - I get what you're saying. But I disagree.

I'm willing to accept that some of you have a differing view than mine.

It's interesting that you can't give me the same consideration

Brody
01-06-2019, 01:14 PM
Mark me as one!

Anyone who reads this is gonna realize your a 1% who ****ed off and offers no real insight. Iíd be laughing at you if I were a prospective pilot. Now if you didnít hide your ď informationĒ declassified of course because you feel like WU has lawyers chasing you around with gag orders. A pilot might value your opinion rather than laugh at you.


Got it - your opinion trumps mine.

Please explain why

Starbucks
01-06-2019, 01:15 PM
I'll dumb this down so you can understand it.


A prospective pilot for WU asked on a public forum for opinions from those who have worked (or are working) there.

Since I worked there, I offered my opinion. Some of you did - others didn't.

If you'll notice, I didn't attack anyone's opinion. Nor do I think I'm so clairvoyant that I know what other opinion-givers should have seen (or not seen) while working there.

Nor did I attack anyone's qualifications.

Nor did I make assumptions about the other posters.

Honestly, I didn't give others' opinions a second thought.

Why? Because . . . (wait for it) . . . I DON'T CARE if you share my opinion - or if our opinions are diametrically-opposed.

I just tried to do the person a favor - the same favor we've all asked before starting with a new company. You collect several opinions, weigh them based on their relevancy, and try to make an informed decision.

Now, if I were this person who originally asked the question . . . and I read some of your responses to my initial post where I stated my opinion . . . I would have serious misgivings about the pilots who fly there. Clearly, they don't tolerate differing opinions.

Safety violations or no safety violation, if I were forced to fly with a bunch of know-it-alls, I think I'd find another place to fly.

But hey - if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me, then please continue.

And if you think I care about your opinion, please reread this post

I haven't attacked you. I just asked you to provide details which you won't do. Put up or shut up. If not - go away and go post on the regional boards.

1212135
01-06-2019, 01:23 PM
Got it - your opinion trumps mine.

Please explain why

The simple fact yours is an accusation and a serious one at that not an opinion.

Brody
01-06-2019, 01:46 PM
I haven't attacked you. I just asked you to provide details which you won't do. Put up or shut up. If not - go away and go post on the regional boards.

Prove to us that YOUR opinion is correct. Post proof that WU doesn't cut corners or knowingly allow violations.

Please be specific.

And just because the company hasn't been caught by the FAA doesn't mean they aren't committing violations. It just means they've gotten away with it up to now.

So back up your opinions with verifiable evidence.

1212135
01-06-2019, 01:55 PM
Prove to us that YOUR opinion is correct. Post proof that WU doesn't cut corners or knowingly allow violations.

Please be specific.

And just because the company hasn't been caught by the FAA doesn't mean they aren't committing violations. It just means they've gotten away with it up to now.

So back up your opinions with verifiable evidence.
Argus/Wvyrn would be a start
The fact we have a 135 operating certificate
Pilots are atesting to the fact they are safe
What do need every log book from every plane??
The fact WU pilots are professional and would report this and not cry on a forum that has no power .

USMCFLYR
01-06-2019, 02:25 PM
It is YOUR OPINION that I should give details to (ostensibly) back up my opinion - which was to another individual, not to you.
Yes it is my opinion. If you are going to take the time to respond to the post, and make negative comments, then you should take the time to provide the details. Otherwise - and perception is the key here - you claims have no merit - and you beating your chest about it does nothing more to make anyone take you and more seriously.

If you are trying to help, then I am giving you some advice from an outsider - the type of person who you are supposedly trying to warn off - that would make your post resonate with me.

The fact that you don't believe me is irrelevant.
No - it isn't irrelevant since I am the type of audience that you are trying to each.
You can argue with you former co-workers all you want, but since I am your target audience - what I believe of your post is the whole purpose of your post.

What has really happened here is that your post, your future posts, and any credibility you might have on this aviation forum is suspect now by me and who knows how many others - thereby actually you irrelevant.

I state my opinion, and several of you indicate that its not a valid opinion unless I provide specifics.

But when you state yours, it's correct by default?
I've stated no opinions on the validity of your post.
I've not worked for WU.
I've been to training with your ex-coworkers and have nothing of the sort of which you speak, one reason why I personally would have liked some details

This is comical. And sadly, it's typical
Yes - - - you are correct. After having been on this board for over a decade now, it is very typical to see people come on and make extraordinary claims. Often the one who does such has some personal beef with the company because they failed, were fired, didn't get along with the pilot group, etc.... Especially telling is the lack of detail present. And be careful making something up. There have been numerous cases on this board and others where fake and frauds have been outed. Typically people like that tend to disappear from the message boards because the community shuns someone who just likes to talk trash about former employers without being able to back it up.

Sort of like the law Brody - the ACCUSER has to provide the facts - not the defendant.
If your entire class had seen unsafe behavior and reported it up the chain - or even the FAA Whistleblower Hotline - then the company would be answering questions. There would be even more oversight, more no-notice inspections, interviews, audits, etc....
Can you imagine what your POI would have to do and how far up the chain it would reach if an entire new hire class quite soon after being hired on and everyone of them had levied charges of violations? But this didn't happen did it? No ONE of the class - to include you apparently - did a single thing to bring these flagrant violations to light; especially since you didn't really have anything invested in the company did you?

Tried to help you Brody.
Doesn't seem like you want the help.
Continue down the same path.
It really doesn't matter now.
Maybe you'll have better luck in other threads.

Starbucks
01-06-2019, 03:19 PM
Prove to us that YOUR opinion is correct. Post proof that WU doesn't cut corners or knowingly allow violations.

Please be specific.

And just because the company hasn't been caught by the FAA doesn't mean they aren't committing violations. It just means they've gotten away with it up to now.

So back up your opinions with verifiable evidence.

You have the burden of proof. You accuse with no details and then want others to disprove you? Huh? Please go away.

symbian simian
01-06-2019, 03:46 PM
Outsider looking in.
I have 8 years 91K before I went 121 in 2013, and probably wont come back.

Some of the best flying I have done was 91K, I never felt pushed to do anything illegal or dangerous, but I wasn't WU.

You are the one making unsubstantiated claims about safety, everyone is calling you out, not one of your former classmates or anyone else is backing you up. You are fine with me not caring about your opinion and that is a great start, but what you said is not just an opinion but an accusation, and you can't do that without providing evidence if you want ANYONE to take you seriously.

I think others have answered most of your questions, so I'll keep this short -

I was hired over the past year as an FO. I, along with most of my class, resigned within a few months. They (mgmt) put on a great show during training about their safety focus, but day-to-day experience dictates otherwise. They hired most (all?) of my class over the phone - no interview. My personal opinion is they are a violation waiting to happen. Lots of corners were cut during my time there. Chief pilot has criminal rap sheet (look it up). If he (or a few others in mgmt) have anything against you - your chances for upgrade are minimal. This didn't happen to me (wasn't there long enough), but several senior instructors warned me about it. It seemed like everyone was trying to leave - or at least the ones who were young enough to go to a 121.

There are some positives - but I felt the negatives far outweighed them.

Just one person's opinion here, FWIW.

Brody
01-06-2019, 06:19 PM
This will be my last post on this topic.

I had a particular experience with WU - one that a few of you apparently did not have.

I responded to a request for an opinion. I CLEARLY STATED THAT IT WAS AN OPINION.

I have no obligation to any of you to bring up the details.

Speaking of - the things that I (and a few colleagues) saw while at WU were dealt with privately. And they will remain private.

The assumptions that a few of you made were - to put it mildly - very amusing. Thanks for the entertainment.

By far the biggest issue here is the inability of several of you to tolerate opposing opinions. Y'all might want to check the mirror.

And to the person who originally asked for our opinions - I hope your choice was the right one for you. And if you chose WU, I hope you don't have to fly with some of these knuckleheads.

Gundriver64
01-07-2019, 02:44 AM
I find this guy's claim of 100% of his class quitting within the first few months hard to believe. Especially, in light of the one year training contract. Friends that I have at WU tell me the company is pretty adamant about holding people's feet to the fire with respect to honoring their commitment.

Cheers,
G

EMAW
01-07-2019, 03:54 AM
This will be my last post on this topic.

I had a particular experience with WU - one that a few of you apparently did not have.

I responded to a request for an opinion. I CLEARLY STATED THAT IT WAS AN OPINION.

I have no obligation to any of you to bring up the details.

Speaking of - the things that I (and a few colleagues) saw while at WU were dealt with privately. And they will remain private.

The assumptions that a few of you made were - to put it mildly - very amusing. Thanks for the entertainment.

By far the biggest issue here is the inability of several of you to tolerate opposing opinions. Y'all might want to check the mirror.

And to the person who originally asked for our opinions - I hope your choice was the right one for you. And if you chose WU, I hope you don't have to fly with some of these knuckleheads.

The very fact that you keep referring the work you did as working with WU gives me pause. WU does not employ pilots. If you were a pilot here you worked for Gama, and the only contact youíd have with WU would be at recurrent and the odd sales staff.

I can tolerate dissenting opinions. What I canít take is accusations without grounds or proof.

Starbucks
01-07-2019, 03:58 AM
This will be my last post on this topic.



Great. Good luck to you. In your "opinion" you make a serious accusation and refuse to back it up. C'mon.

I have my own opinion as to why many FO's quit Gama within the first few to six months. I'm sure none of those apply to you, though....

1212135
01-07-2019, 04:49 AM
I find this guy's claim of 100% of his class quitting within the first few months hard to believe. Especially, in light of the one year training contract. Friends that I have at WU tell me the company is pretty adamant about holding people's feet to the fire with respect to honoring their commitment.

Cheers,
G

This would be my guess as to why heís crying on this site. He thinks he will get his training money back one lie at a time.

jbeauv
01-15-2019, 06:42 PM
Great. Good luck to you. In your "opinion" you make a serious accusation and refuse to back it up. C'mon.

I have my own opinion as to why many FO's quit Gama within the first few to six months. I'm sure none of those apply to you, though....

13.5 and 14 hour duty days?

EMAW
01-16-2019, 03:54 AM
13.5 and 14 hour duty days?

They do happen, especially during the summer.

cgriffin
01-16-2019, 07:34 AM
Any info on when the next hiring window will open?

Thanks!

1212135
01-16-2019, 07:42 AM
Any info on when the next hiring window will open?

Thanks!

Iím pretty sure the windows wide open and will be foreseeable future. In retrospect the doors are open too. Itís like I have said Gama and WUP intend to grow. But as with all companies growth can be painful. They are trying to get more recruiters, but nothing happens overnight. If you meet ATP minimums and canít seem to get a call back PM me or another Gama/WUP guy on here and we can push names to the people that make it happen. Keep in mind if you donít meet ATP mins that ďmayĒ be the reason why they havenít called. Itís sucks for everyone but Insurance kind of dictates the hiring hours and if they want to be insured they have to respect that. I think it would be a great place for 500 hr guys to learn before jumping into a EMB175.

Pirot
01-16-2019, 12:16 PM
I went through indoc in December and was told there would be two training classes a month with twelve pilots in a class. There was twenty scheduled in my class, nineteen showed up. I’m happy to be working for Gama Aviation.

cgriffin
01-16-2019, 05:18 PM
Awesome, thanks!

Guard
01-17-2019, 04:12 AM
I’m pretty sure the windows wide open and will be foreseeable future. In retrospect the doors are open too. It’s like I have said Gama and WUP intend to grow. But as with all companies growth can be painful. They are trying to get more recruiters, but nothing happens overnight. If you meet ATP minimums and can’t seem to get a call back PM me or another Gama/WUP guy on here and we can push names to the people that make it happen. Keep in mind if you don’t meet ATP mins that “may” be the reason why they haven’t called. It’s sucks for everyone but Insurance kind of dictates the hiring hours and if they want to be insured they have to respect that. I think it would be a great place for 500 hr guys to learn before jumping into a EMB175.

I got an email 3 hours after submitting my application! I am seeing offers of $1000+ a day to work overtime on certain big weekends.

1212135
01-17-2019, 06:50 AM
I got an email 3 hours after submitting my application! I am seeing offers of $1000+ a day to work overtime on certain big weekends.

Yes that has happened but depends if your A or B week. If your already working you do it for your normal salary. But if itís not your on week and they need the extra push they will offer decent overtime pay to start or end a day earlier or later.

CJflyer74
01-22-2019, 12:36 PM
Question for the current Gama (Wheels Up) pilots...

How long is the hiring process for FOs from a successful interview to paid training? Sounds like things move pretty quickly with new classes each month.

Also, are all new-hires going into the King Air, or are some pilots going right into the jets? Iíd be happy flying either... just curious.

I meet all the mins (have my ATP and 500+ hours of CE-525 time). Definitely going to apply.

Thanks for all helpful replies!

1212135
01-22-2019, 01:14 PM
Question for the current Gama (Wheels Up) pilots...

How long is the hiring process for FOs from a successful interview to paid training? Sounds like things move pretty quickly with new classes each month.

Also, are all new-hires going into the King Air, or are some pilots going right into the jets? Iíd be happy flying either... just curious.

I meet all the mins (have my ATP and 500+ hours of CE-525 time). Definitely going to apply.

Thanks for all helpful replies!

If your qualified and ready as soon as next class roughly 30days. Keep in mind you need a week maybe two to complete about 60-70 hrs of online computer based training. If you have 135?experince plan on 60. If your new to 135 70 hrs.

All Kingair hiring

CJflyer74
01-22-2019, 02:38 PM
If your qualified and ready as soon as next class roughly 30days. Keep in mind you need a week maybe two to complete about 60-70 hrs of online computer based training. If you have 135?experince plan on 60. If your new to 135 70 hrs.

All Kingair hiring

Thanks very much. Appreciate the good info.

jetpiloto
01-23-2019, 07:41 AM
For me it went like this:

Online Application: 12/4/2018
Phone Interview: 12/7/2018
Job Offer: 12/14/2018
First Day of Home-Based, Paid Training: 2/4/2019
First Day of Indoc Training at Shelton, CT: 2/11/2019

So, from application to payroll was 60 days. I was originally planning on being in a Jan class, but ended up in this one. I'm sure that the time frame is reduced for those who get an quicker class date.



Question for the current Gama (Wheels Up) pilots...

How long is the hiring process for FOs from a successful interview to paid training? Sounds like things move pretty quickly with new classes each month.

Also, are all new-hires going into the King Air, or are some pilots going right into the jets? Iíd be happy flying either... just curious.

I meet all the mins (have my ATP and 500+ hours of CE-525 time). Definitely going to apply.

Thanks for all helpful replies!

airborne840
01-23-2019, 02:23 PM
Anyone know how Gama handles guys coming in already with the BE-300 type? Do they go through some sort of recurrent or do they go through the full type course with everyone else?

EMAW
01-23-2019, 05:03 PM
Anyone know how Gama handles guys coming in already with the BE-300 type? Do they go through some sort of recurrent or do they go through the full type course with everyone else?

Recurrent. Not sure how many days. Regular recurrent is two days and a checkride, fast and furious, with ground school all 3 days.

airborne840
01-23-2019, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the info!

Recurrent. Not sure how many days. Regular recurrent is two days and a checkride, fast and furious, with ground school all 3 days.

Guard
01-24-2019, 11:52 PM
Anyone know how Gama handles guys coming in already with the BE-300 type? Do they go through some sort of recurrent or do they go through the full type course with everyone else?

you are going to have to do the online training, its a lot of work, takes about 2 weeks if you do it about 3-4 hours a day. Training in CONN is relaxed and fun, I think the Robert does a great job and it relaxed!

hdgbug
01-25-2019, 07:34 AM
Anyone know how Gama handles guys coming in already with the BE-300 type? Do they go through some sort of recurrent or do they go through the full type course with everyone else?

To add on, it's recurrent if you have a recent training event prior to join the company. I want to say sometime in the last year, but I am not 100% on that timeline.

If you have the type but haven't flown or don't any training in it for years, they will send you through the full type.

airborne840
01-25-2019, 07:44 AM
I did a recurrent last summer with my ISR company. Thanks for the good info.
To add on, it's recurrent if you have a recent training event prior to join the company. I want to say sometime in the last year, but I am not 100% on that timeline.

If you have the type but haven't flown or don't any training in it for years, they will send you through the full type.

CJflyer74
01-27-2019, 12:47 PM
Does Gama allow pilots to airline to destinations (within the US - excluding Hawaii and AK of course) other than their domicile airport at the end of an eight day trip? And then fly out of that same airport at the start of the next eight day trip?

I spoke with some of the folks at Exclusive Jets about this potential job perk, and they informed me that yes, they allow pilots to do this. However, itís expected that pilots make this type of request no more than three or four times a year. Seems reasonable.

Just wondering if Gama allows this, too.

Also would like to ask you all about commute times to domicile airports. If hired into the Wheels Up program, I may request Norfolk (ORF) as my domicile. Just wondering if I could pull off living up to 1.5 hours to 2 hours away from ORF. How early do you typically airline out on day one?

I guess a better way to ask all of this is...

1) Whatís the required max commute time to your domicile airport?

2) When does your duty day begin on day one? Does it begin when you start your drive to the airport from your home?

My apologies for the rookie 135 questions. Iíve been in 91 world for a long time now. Thanks a lot for your replies.

hdgbug
01-27-2019, 03:02 PM
Does Gama allow pilots to airline to destinations (within the US - excluding Hawaii and AK of course) other than their domicile airport at the end of an eight day trip? And then fly out of that same airport at the start of the next eight day trip?

1) Whatís the required max commute time to your domicile airport?

2) When does your duty day begin on day one? Does it begin when you start your drive to the airport from your home?

Yes they allow you to do off base travel at the beginning and end of your trips. There is nothing published about how many times a year you are allowed to do it. I've talked with some guys that say they do it all the time. However, I'm sure there is a limit before they throw a flag. They do say that they can charge you for the difference between sending you off base and sending you back to base. Although, none of the guys I've talked to have been charged. Your experience may vary.

1) You are supposed to live within 2 hours of your base. This is mainly an issue when assigned to Home Standby as they will only plan on 2 hours for you to get to the airport if called out.

2) The earliest they can assign you is 6AM local on day 1. If they want to start you earlier than 6AM they have to reach out to you for acceptance and will pay you overtime. Duty time starts at your report time to the airport (1 hour prior to departure).

polymox
01-27-2019, 03:07 PM
Does Gama allow pilots to airline to destinations (within the US - excluding Hawaii and AK of course) other than their domicile airport at the end of an eight day trip? And then fly out of that same airport at the start of the next eight day trip?

I spoke with some of the folks at Exclusive Jets about this potential job perk, and they informed me that yes, they allow pilots to do this. However, itís expected that pilots make this type of request no more than three or four times a year. Seems reasonable.

Just wondering if Gama allows this, too.

Also would like to ask you all about commute times to domicile airports. If hired into the Wheels Up program, I may request Norfolk (ORF) as my domicile. Just wondering if I could pull off living up to 1.5 hours to 2 hours away from ORF. How early do you typically airline out on day one?

I guess a better way to ask all of this is...

1) Whatís the required max commute time to your domicile airport?

2) When does your duty day begin on day one? Does it begin when you start your drive to the airport from your home?

My apologies for the rookie 135 questions. Iíve been in 91 world for a long time now. Thanks a lot for your replies.

Yes, they have a similar policy of allowing you to travel to or from another location, with advance notice.

The published policy is to live within a two hour drive of your domicile airport, although some do live even further.

Duty begins one hour prior to airline departure, or at the requested show time if renting a car. Earlier than 6a requires additional pay, but is extremely rare.

Under the current system, I have always been based at a major airline hub, and usually start between 7a and 1p. Returning to the base has usually been between 5p and 10p. Your experience in ORF would probably be a little worse, due to lesser airline service.

CJflyer74
01-27-2019, 05:48 PM
polymox and hdgbug...

Thanks a lot for the detailed replies. All great info that (assuming I am hired) will help me decide which domicile to choose. Much appreciated.

1212135
01-28-2019, 05:21 AM
Does Gama allow pilots to airline to destinations (within the US - excluding Hawaii and AK of course) other than their domicile airport at the end of an eight day trip? And then fly out of that same airport at the start of the next eight day trip?

I spoke with some of the folks at Exclusive Jets about this potential job perk, and they informed me that yes, they allow pilots to do this. However, itís expected that pilots make this type of request no more than three or four times a year. Seems reasonable.

Just wondering if Gama allows this, too.

Also would like to ask you all about commute times to domicile airports. If hired into the Wheels Up program, I may request Norfolk (ORF) as my domicile. Just wondering if I could pull off living up to 1.5 hours to 2 hours away from ORF. How early do you typically airline out on day one?

I guess a better way to ask all of this is...

1) Whatís the required max commute time to your domicile airport?

2) When does your duty day begin on day one? Does it begin when you start your drive to the airport from your home?

My apologies for the rookie 135 questions. Iíve been in 91 world for a long time now. Thanks a lot for your replies.

Yes they do allow off base start and end as confirmed. Rumor is as long as itís a Tier 1 city your going to at no extra charge. Tier 2 cities if your Tier 1 can be an extra charge. But I have yet to hear they actually do that. But if itís not a Tier 1 or 2 ( Like Yuma AZ) they wonít.

Where you live at is tricky. Technically they canít tell you where you can or can not live. The book says 2 hours. So as long as you can get to base in 2 hours your live where you want. I personally live 2.5 hrs away and never had a problem. They sucky thing is Duty only starts 1 hr prior to airline time.

cgriffin
01-29-2019, 01:59 PM
Many thanks to all for the helpful information.

I met hiring minimums, nothing all that special. Submitted my application and within a few days had a reply.

Now the nervousness sets in... interview is next week. Really excited for this opportunity.

Take care!

jetpiloto
01-31-2019, 07:08 AM
Many thanks to all for the helpful information.

I met hiring minimums, nothing all that special. Submitted my application and within a few days had a reply.

Now the nervousness sets in... interview is next week. Really excited for this opportunity.

Take care!
Good luck. It was a very low stress, friendly interview. I'm sure you'll do fine!

jimlona
02-01-2019, 04:40 PM
Anyone know how Gama handles guys coming in already with the BE-300 type? Do they go through some sort of recurrent or do they go through the full type course with everyone else?
I had the type but haven't had ProLine PIC time within 12 months, so initial school again, f/o, and upgrade when ready thereafter, once line flying out of training, of course.

garybrose
02-04-2019, 04:51 AM
Many thanks to all for the helpful information.

I met hiring minimums, nothing all that special. Submitted my application and within a few days had a reply.

Now the nervousness sets in... interview is next week. Really excited for this opportunity.

Take care!

My video interview is this week too. Anyone have any gouge on any technical questions that are typically asked???

jbeauv
02-04-2019, 07:04 AM
My video interview is this week too. Anyone have any gouge on any technical questions that are typically asked???

I do not remember any Technical questions in my interview, but things may have changed.

1212135
02-04-2019, 11:31 AM
My video interview is this week too. Anyone have any gouge on any technical questions that are typically asked???

If Your applying for SIC position. Donít worry about it. Donít memorize more than the easy basics. If your apply for PIC have a good working knowledge of Part 135 and EOD ( Eligible on Demand) rules.

CJflyer74
02-06-2019, 03:13 PM
Quick question for you all regarding maintaining a First Class medical certificate while working for Gama / Wheels Up...

I just renewed my medical today (First Class). Just wondering if Gama requires pilots to renew every six months? Thatís what I assume, just wanted to confirm. Does the company help cover the exam costs? Thanks very much.

Starbucks
02-06-2019, 03:36 PM
Quick question for you all regarding maintaining a First Class medical certificate while working for Gama / Wheels Up...

I just renewed my medical today (First Class). Just wondering if Gama requires pilots to renew every six months? Thatís what I assume, just wanted to confirm. Does the company help cover the exam costs? Thanks very much.
You're required to maintain a first class medical. Yes, full cost is reimbursed.

CJflyer74
02-06-2019, 05:14 PM
Thanks for your reply. Thatís good to know the company reimburses you for the exams. Much appreciated.

Pirot
02-07-2019, 10:56 AM
My video interview is this week too. Anyone have any gouge on any technical questions that are typically asked???
Hi, I had studied up on 135 rules like airspeeds for holding and in various airspace. None of those questions were asked. It was a pleasant Skype interview and some simple questions came up that were easy to answer after 13 years of flying part 135. During Indoc we were told we were hired to fly people, not airplanes. I just finished my training at Flight Safety and am ready to start IOE.

garybrose
02-08-2019, 08:13 AM
I do not remember any Technical questions in my interview, but things may have changed.

Video interview yesterday with one of the Pilot Supervisors. No technical questions, but a really good talk about my background, his background, and he also answered a slew of questions from me about the company structure, operations, etc. He indicated that I should expect an offer letter first of next week and a start date in mid-March.

Guard
02-13-2019, 09:17 PM
Video interview yesterday with one of the Pilot Supervisors. No technical questions, but a really good talk about my background, his background, and he also answered a slew of questions from me about the company structure, operations, etc. He indicated that I should expect an offer letter first of next week and a start date in mid-March.

Good for you, I like how they pretty much tell you if your hired on interview day!

TyWebb
02-14-2019, 06:11 AM
What's wheels up 401K details look like? Where are pilots moving on to when they leave.. Are the majors still attainable or most guys/gals going corporate other fractional/135?

Busdriver91
02-14-2019, 09:00 AM
What's wheels up 401K details look like? Where are pilots moving on to when they leave.. Are the majors still attainable or most guys/gals going corporate other fractional/135?

401k is definitely a big negative here. I think they match 100 percent up to your 3 percent contribution.
Majors are still attainable after coming here. One of our instructors just left for United. Several others have gone to southwest.

USMCFLYR
02-14-2019, 09:07 AM
401k is definitely a big negative here. I think they match 100 percent up to your 3 percent contribution.
Majors are still attainable after coming here. One of our instructors just left for United. Several others have gone to southwest.

Did these people who left have anything larger on their resume than what they were flying at WU or were they among your few jet experienced crew members?

jetpiloto
02-14-2019, 10:53 AM
401k is definitely a big negative here. I think they match 100 percent up to your 3 percent contribution.
Majors are still attainable after coming here. One of our instructors just left for United. Several others have gone to southwest.
Close... They match 50% up to 6% of your salary.

hav3atps
02-14-2019, 03:27 PM
Curious what the attire is. Coat and tie, polos etc?
And just so I understand how it works coming from a much different part on the industry, If my A/P of travel is from San Diego, would most of the flights be from San Diego and end in San Diego or am I flown to other parts of the country where I start my 8 days. Similar to commuting for a 121 to a domicile. I apologise if my questions are as clear as mud and thanks much in advance for your answers.

hdgbug
02-14-2019, 04:49 PM
Curious what the attire is. Coat and tie, polos etc?
And just so I understand how it works coming from a much different part on the industry, If my A/P of travel is from San Diego, would most of the flights be from San Diego and end in San Diego or am I flown to other parts of the country where I start my 8 days. Similar to commuting for a 121 to a domicile. I apologise if my questions are as clear as mud and thanks much in advance for your answers.

Standard pilot uniform (shirt, tie, epaulets, wings), but no coat. Company issued soft shell jackets.

Most likely you would be airlined, with a ticket, to wherever the aircraft is. The airplane could be anywhere in the country, but you'd likely start somewhere on the West Coast out of San Diego. There is always the chance of starting or ending in SAN if a plane happened to be there.

hav3atps
02-14-2019, 06:01 PM
Standard pilot uniform (shirt, tie, epaulets, wings), but no coat. Company issued soft shell jackets.

Most likely you would be airlined, with a ticket, to wherever the aircraft is. The airplane could be anywhere in the country, but you'd likely start somewhere on the West Coast out of San Diego. There is always the chance of starting or ending in SAN if a plane happened to be there.

Thanks much. Appreciate the info.
Has this pro-rated contract always been in effect or is it somthing recent? Not making an opinion about it either way. Was just curious.

hdgbug
02-14-2019, 06:23 PM
Thanks much. Appreciate the info.
Has this pro-rated contract always been in effect or is it somthing recent? Not making an opinion about it either way. Was just curious.

Been there since the beginning as far as I know.

1212135
02-15-2019, 06:06 AM
Curious what the attire is. Coat and tie, polos etc?
And just so I understand how it works coming from a much different part on the industry, If my A/P of travel is from San Diego, would most of the flights be from San Diego and end in San Diego or am I flown to other parts of the country where I start my 8 days. Similar to commuting for a 121 to a domicile. I apologise if my questions are as clear as mud and thanks much in advance for your answers.

Sorry Iím late to this.... I have seen West coast people travel to East coast to start a trip and vice versa. But usually they do tend to keep you in the region you started at or, they loose 1/2 a day of duty for travel. But youíll get your Teterhole chance at some point. Lol. I have started a trip in HPN and ended in LAS so your 8 day could take you anywhere. Some times itís nice to get out of the NE shuttle and see the US.

RiverRnr5
02-15-2019, 01:40 PM
Whatís the current wait for a class? From job acceptance to first day how long is that wait period? Thanks!

EMAW
02-15-2019, 02:08 PM
I figured someone would’ve moved this by now. Can an administrator move this to 135. GAMA isn’t a Fractional.

hav3atps
02-15-2019, 02:47 PM
Sorry Iím late to this.... I have seen West coast people travel to East coast to start a trip and vice versa. But usually they do tend to keep you in the region you started at or, they loose 1/2 a day of duty for travel. But youíll get your Teterhole chance at some point. Lol. I have started a trip in HPN and ended in LAS so your 8 day could take you anywhere. Some times itís nice to get out of the NE shuttle and see the US.

Teterhole, nice. Have heard the stories about the Congo line.
Thanks much for the info.
Received an email to call for an interview

Busdriver91
02-15-2019, 04:05 PM
Whatís the current wait for a class? From job acceptance to first day how long is that wait period? Thanks!

Next class with openings is April 8th. Classes are running every two weeks.

hav3atps
02-15-2019, 10:23 PM
The answer may be obvious but, are the travel days where youíre repositioning part of those 8 days on or are you actually home only 4 of the 6 days because of the 2 days traveling? Again, clear as mud

Jkmsr
02-16-2019, 03:19 AM
The answer may be obvious but, are the travel days where youíre repositioning part of those 8 days on or are you actually home only 4 of the 6 days because of the 2 days traveling? Again, clear as mud

On tour travel is done on day 1 and off tour travel is on day 8. You are off for the whole 6 days.

Allegheny
02-16-2019, 03:52 AM
A point should be made to all those on this board. WheelsUp is NOT a Fractional operation. Fractional companies operate under Part 91K of the FAR's. The customers of Fractional companies are owners of at least a 1/16 share of an aircraft.


WheelsUP is totally Part 135. The customers are "members", think COSTCO, not owners. They pay a much smaller fee than at NetJets of Flex jet and pay a charter rate for the airplane. Members have no equity in any of the WheelsUP aircraft.



WheelsUp is a marketing company and the aircraft are operated by GAMA Aviation. GAMA is the Part 135 certificate holder.

hav3atps
02-16-2019, 05:54 AM
On tour travel is done on day 1 and off tour travel is on day 8. You are off for the whole 6 days.

Not a bad deal. Appreciate the info...

MaxMar
02-16-2019, 12:06 PM
I understand FO mins are ATP mins, but are folks getting hired on with minimum multi time? By the time Iíll be applying Iíll be 2000+ hours, over a thousand TPIC, and a couple years of 135 experience but only ~25 multi engine.

1212135
02-16-2019, 01:57 PM
A point should be made to all those on this board. WheelsUp is NOT a Fractional operation. Fractional companies operate under Part 91K of the FAR's. The customers of Fractional companies are owners of at least a 1/16 share of an aircraft.


WheelsUP is totally Part 135. The customers are "members", think COSTCO, not owners. They pay a much smaller fee than at NetJets of Flex jet and pay a charter rate for the airplane. Members have no equity in any of the WheelsUP aircraft.



WheelsUp is a marketing company and the aircraft are operated by GAMA Aviation. GAMA is the Part 135 certificate holder.

A. You are right!
B. Does it really matter??? Not trying to fight. But itís pretty much one ongoing forum about people curious about working here. There is not 40 different GAMA threads clogging the fractionals up..

hav3atps
02-16-2019, 03:23 PM
A. You are right!
B. Does it really matter??? Not trying to fight. But itís pretty much one ongoing forum about people curious about working here. There is not 40 different GAMA threads clogging the fractionals up..

Thought the same thing also. Just sayin'.

Most people including myself who are inquiring about working here as well as on most APC pages, have done their homework regarding the type of operation i.e. 91/135/121 etc. and if it's an issue as to what each entails than they should start with the basic CFRs to get up to speed a little. It is listed in the wrong category but, oh well. It's easy to find..

Boris Badenov
02-16-2019, 05:19 PM
It's easy to find..

I guess it's easy to find if you don't know what regs your potential employer operates under.

I mean I don't really care or think it's a big deal, and I wouldn't even post about it if it hadn't come up. But it's also kinda like "ehm, what else don't you know?"

In any case, it's not like it was a Bad Thing to point out that the operator isn't a 91(k). *shrug*

Boris Badenov
02-16-2019, 05:21 PM
Also:

There ARE not 40 different GAMA threads clogging the fractionals up..

FIFY. *twitch*

hav3atps
02-16-2019, 08:17 PM
I guess it's easy to find if you don't know what regs your potential employer operates under.

I mean I don't really care or think it's a big deal, and I wouldn't even post about it if it hadn't come up. But it's also kinda like "ehm, what else don't you know?"

In any case, it's not like it was a Bad Thing to point out that the operator isn't a 91(k). *shrug*

Actually, it's easy to find by just typing the name of the company in the search bar and won't worry what category it comes up under. Makes for a nice little feature though if one's concerned.

1212135
02-17-2019, 06:46 AM
I guess it's easy to find if you don't know what regs your potential employer operates under.

I mean I don't really care or think it's a big deal, and I wouldn't even post about it if it hadn't come up. But it's also kinda like "ehm, what else don't you know?"

In any case, it's not like it was a Bad Thing to point out that the operator isn't a 91(k). *shrug*
Flying must be slow this week. You really believe 98% of pilot spend hours and hours worrying about which 91K 135 for certification reason it belongs too??? They worry about pay and quality of life and benefits. Maybe a few worry about aircraft if you still are diagnosed with shinny Jet syndrome. BTW Iím not arguing with you in fact I pointed out the initial person who brought it to the attention is RIGHT. How ever there are aviators coming from the military and other companies looking to get into a decent company that offers the type of QOL. While once again that facts are correct we are not a fractional by the letter of the law. A NJA,WUP,Flexjet,Xojet. Duties remain the same. You have a start and end date 7/7 8/6 4/3 etc. the owners or members tell the company when and where they want to fly. The respective company books the flight. Then hands over the trip to the pilots to fly it. So coming from the pilots level aspect there no difference.

Guard
02-18-2019, 04:50 AM
A point should be made to all those on this board. WheelsUp is NOT a Fractional operation. Fractional companies operate under Part 91K of the FAR's. The customers of Fractional companies are owners of at least a 1/16 share of an aircraft.


WheelsUP is totally Part 135. The customers are "members", think COSTCO, not owners. They pay a much smaller fee than at NetJets of Flex jet and pay a charter rate for the airplane. Members have no equity in any of the WheelsUP aircraft.


WheelsUp is a marketing company and the aircraft are operated by GAMA Aviation. GAMA is the Part 135 certificate holder.

These guys are angling for the doctors who want to go on a golf trip, where as NetJets owners average wealth's north of $50 million.

Allegheny
02-18-2019, 05:10 AM
These guys are angling for the doctors who want to go on a golf trip, where as NetJets owners average wealth's north of $50 million.


https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/november/04/wheels-up-bullish



ďWe want to disrupt and democratize,Ē said Kenny Dichter, founder and CEO of private-membership, on-demand charter firm Wheels Up. So far, the strategy is working, with Dichter saying that he sees a total of one to two million companies and individuals as the potential membership market."




If you consider the Charter / Fractional customer model as a pyramid with Global Challengers and Gulfstreams at the top, then those operators are fighting for a rather small market. The base of the pyramid represents a much larger population segment.



https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-join-Wheels-Up


Wheels Up has two membership levels (https://privatejetcardcomparisons.com/2019/01/27/netjets-compared-to-wheels-up-2019/):
Individuals and families are $17,500
Corporations are $29,500
You then pay per hour:
King Air 350i is $4,675 per hour + 7.5% Federal Excise Tax
Citation Excel/XLS is $7,695 per hour + 7.5% Federal Excise Tax


Considering the King Air seats 9 that's $519.33 /hr. A very reasonable rate on a per head basis and not a lot of up front cost.

lov2flyceagle
02-18-2019, 08:38 AM
Anyone know if Chip Argumaniz is still at Gama/WU?

hav3atps
02-18-2019, 11:11 AM
Anyone know if Chip Argumaniz is still at Gama/WU?

Yes

Filler....

Busdriver91
02-18-2019, 11:52 AM
Anyone know if Chip Argumaniz is still at Gama/WU?

I think he is the one that does most of the interviews.

Pirot
02-19-2019, 01:34 PM
Question for the current Gama (Wheels Up) pilots...

How long is the hiring process for FOs from a successful interview to paid training? Sounds like things move pretty quickly with new classes each month.

Also, are all new-hires going into the King Air, or are some pilots going right into the jets? Iíd be happy flying either... just curious.

I meet all the mins (have my ATP and 500+ hours of CE-525 time). Definitely going to apply.

Thanks for all helpful replies!
I was interviewed, hired and started getting paid a week later. That week preceded indoc. During that week I completed 40 hours of online training that was assigned by the training department at Gama.

1212135
02-19-2019, 03:37 PM
I was interviewed, hired and started getting paid a week later. That week preceded indoc. During that week I completed 40 hours of online training that was assigned by the training department at Gama.

It honestly only took you 40 hours???? If so I applaud you and owe you a beer!

Guard
02-19-2019, 06:26 PM
I was interviewed, hired and started getting paid a week later. That week preceded indoc. During that week I completed 40 hours of online training that was assigned by the training department at Gama.

it took me at least 75 hours, that was a ton of work!

Pirot
02-20-2019, 07:32 AM
it took me at least 75 hours, that was a ton of work!
I had the advantage of doing the same online training for another 135 operator last March so I was able to move quickly through the lessons and tests. I had over twelve years experience flying cargo so the hazmat material was familiar.

Joebob21
02-28-2019, 10:16 AM
What kind of pay can a King air SIC expect? Upgrade time? Almost to 1500 hrs now, 600 Multi, no previous turbine experience. CFI, CFII, MEI. Think I have a shot with these times?

hav3atps
03-01-2019, 08:54 AM
What kind of pay can a King air SIC expect? Upgrade time? Almost to 1500 hrs now, 600 Multi, no previous turbine experience. CFI, CFII, MEI. Think I have a shot with these times?

$55,000yr

Approx. 1 year.

req. ATP min.

Joebob21
03-01-2019, 09:24 AM
$55,000yr

Approx. 1 year.

req. ATP min.

Thank you.

Busdriver91
03-01-2019, 04:59 PM
$55,000yr

Approx. 1 year.

req. ATP min.

I think...not 100% sure...if they pay for your atp then its 45,000 the first year. Thatís why there is a range for fo salary in their adds.

hav3atps
03-06-2019, 02:58 PM
I, along with most of my class, resigned within a few months.

Just curious, did you end up having to make good on the training contract? i.e. Pay it back..

dera
03-07-2019, 11:24 AM
I think...not 100% sure...if they pay for your atp then its 45,000 the first year. Thatís why there is a range for fo salary in their adds.

Nothing like losing 10k pay for a 5k training course.

Gundriver64
03-07-2019, 11:37 AM
Does anybody know what their preferred/required recency of experience requirements are?

Flaps8posrate
03-07-2019, 03:06 PM
At least 121 min +500 multiturbine
2000/2500 to be competitive with a strong resume. Does anybody know what their preferred/required recency of experience requirements are?

Gundriver64
03-07-2019, 03:28 PM
At least 121 min +500 multiturbine
2000/2500 to be competitive with a strong resume.

Thanks, but looking to see if they have any recency of experience preferences. E.g., last flight no less than 6 months, 3 months, etc?

hav3atps
03-08-2019, 07:10 PM
Interviewed recently. Is it normal policy to contact the applicant to let them know if they weren't selected? Or just assume so if not contacted. Thanks..

Pirot
03-10-2019, 03:20 PM
Interviewed recently. Is it normal policy to contact the applicant to let them know if they weren't selected? Or just assume so if not contacted. Thanks..

I was offered a job as SIC a few days after my Skype interview. I had 7700 total time, 1500 multi time, 300 of it multi turbine and 3000 single engine P&W time.

hav3atps
03-10-2019, 06:07 PM
I was offered a job as SIC a few days after my Skype interview. I had 7700 total time, 1500 multi time, 300 of it multi turbine and 3000 single engine P&W time.

Thanks, have 9250 pic/ 7625 turbine.

Anyone know if they'll extend that courtesy if not hired?

Guard
03-14-2019, 04:42 AM
Interviewed recently. Is it normal policy to contact the applicant to let them know if they weren't selected? Or just assume so if not contacted. Thanks..

I was offered PIC job during Skype interview, I think you then hear from Hector a few days later with formal offer letter, they make you sign a training contract at indoctrination but in my experience these are pretty hard to enforce!

100LL
03-20-2019, 04:07 PM
Heard from a reliable source that Wheels Up is looking to go public by years end but they lack employee count. Only way to make that work is if they bought out another 135 operator and that they were/are looking at buying someone out just not sure who. Is there any weight to this rumor?

EMAW
03-20-2019, 05:40 PM
Heard from a reliable source that Wheels Up is looking to go public by years end but they lack employee count. Only way to make that work is if they bought out another 135 operator and that they were/are looking at buying someone out just not sure who. Is there any weight to this rumor?

Wheels Up doesnít employ pilots, dispatchers, or flight-followers. Donít think that number of employees has an effect on going public. Iím fairly certain they arenít looking at buying any certificates at this time.

1212135
03-21-2019, 02:00 AM
Heard from a reliable source that Wheels Up is looking to go public by years end but they lack employee count. Only way to make that work is if they bought out another 135 operator and that they were/are looking at buying someone out just not sure who. Is there any weight to this rumor?

Heard something like that also... (Coffee talk) however Indoc guys saying no growth at moment because of it. But 6 months ago they said they purchased 100 planes. 3-4 a month for foreseeable future. So the rumor mill seems to be all over the place.

Guard
03-23-2019, 04:33 AM
Heard from a reliable source that Wheels Up is looking to go public by years end but they lack employee count. Only way to make that work is if they bought out another 135 operator and that they were/are looking at buying someone out just not sure who. Is there any weight to this rumor?

talked with a "member" of wheels up and he was telling me that they are running into cost issues with the flying and thus losing members faster than they can get them, flying hour cost have creeped up and it is affecting the markets ability to purchase memberships. Wheels ups entire model is built on "not" owning aircraft and paying pilots and flight followers, so I doubt they want to buy another 135.

SrfNFly227
03-24-2019, 10:36 AM
talked with a "member" of wheels up and he was telling me that they are running into cost issues with the flying and thus losing members faster than they can get them, flying hour cost have creeped up and it is affecting the markets ability to purchase memberships. Wheels ups entire model is built on "not" owning aircraft and paying pilots and flight followers, so I doubt they want to buy another 135.

The airplane I used to fly just gained a new client because he figured out he could charter the Challenger for the same price as a Wheels Up King Air. He isn't the first person to figure that out and he certainly won't be the last.

Starbucks
03-25-2019, 03:54 AM
The airplane I used to fly just gained a new client because he figured out he could charter the Challenger for the same price as a Wheels Up King Air. He isn't the first person to figure that out and he certainly won't be the last.

But now he can't get his picture taken with Russell Wilson at the WUP Super Bowl party.

ChinookDriver47
04-30-2019, 09:26 AM
Hi there. Does Gama/WU have a presence in Western WA? If so, does anyone know if they are looking to hire folks into the King Air? Thank you.

1212135
04-30-2019, 11:34 AM
Hi there. Does Gama/WU have a presence in Western WA? If so, does anyone know if they are looking to hire folks into the King Air? Thank you.

They have no Kingair bases. You are home based and flown to where thereís an airplane. They have a present nationwide. You may live in SEA and find your self flying day1 to MIA or PDX and it changes every week. And yes they are in full hiring mode and will be for a long while..

Busdriver91
04-30-2019, 03:49 PM
Hi there. Does Gama/WU have a presence in Western WA? If so, does anyone know if they are looking to hire folks into the King Air? Thank you.

Seattle is a base and you can live anywhere within 2 hours. We are hiring into only the King Air. There are a few threads with loads of info...mostly in the 135 section since we arenít fractional. Happy to answer any questions you have.

Guard
05-01-2019, 05:00 PM
Wheels Up doesn’t employ pilots, dispatchers, or flight-followers. Don’t think that number of employees has an effect on going public. I’m fairly certain they aren’t looking at buying any certificates at this time.

Kenny isn't known for buying assets, just marketing products. From what I saw at WU he plays it at the top only with a few of his high school buddies. As I think we saw at NJA he does't like dealing with or taking orders, can't see him wanting a board to answer to.

Busdriver91
05-02-2019, 12:29 PM
Kenny isn't known for buying assets, just marketing products. From what I saw at WU he plays it at the top only with a few of his high school buddies. As I think we saw at NJA he does't like dealing with or taking orders, can't see him wanting a board to answer to.

WU makes no secret of wanting to go public. You must not work here.

Guard
05-03-2019, 04:22 PM
WU makes no secret of wanting to go public. You must not work here.

I did, and I saw it for what it is, shell game in action! If your Gama employee you got lots to worry about in my opinion long term on WU side.

EMAW
05-04-2019, 03:42 PM
I did, and I saw it for what it is, shell game in action! If your Gama employee you got lots to worry about in my opinion long term on WU side.

Or you can go off of what you know. The contract renewed last year, without even a discussion. We are still very busy. Wheels Up is still young and GAMA take good care of us.
Could we shut down tomorrow? Yes. Is it likely? Not at all. Am I gonna worry about what MIGHT happen next year, next quarter, or even next month? Not at all. Lifeís too short to worry about stuff that might happen and is out of my control. As long as the check comes every couple of weeks and we continue to get treated well, Iím happy.

Guard
05-04-2019, 04:05 PM
Or you can go off of what you know. The contract renewed last year, without even a discussion. We are still very busy. Wheels Up is still young and GAMA take good care of us.
Could we shut down tomorrow? Yes. Is it likely? Not at all. Am I gonna worry about what MIGHT happen next year, next quarter, or even next month? Not at all. Lifeís too short to worry about stuff that might happen and is out of my control. As long as the check comes every couple of weeks and we continue to get treated well, Iím happy.

I think the WU model is brilliant, I have no doubt it will be around, I just wonder if they want to go public who will be WU employees? I liked all the people I worked with at Gama and want ti see it succeed!

Venkman
05-05-2019, 07:53 AM
Iím interested in a PIC opening. Anyone able to weigh in on their experience going that route? Pay and benefits seem very decent and the 8/6 at least has predictability which Iím lacking on call. I expect they work you pretty good on your 8. Do you go into your rotation knowing what the week entails (more or less), or is it more like you get tomorrowís info the night before? Do they respect the 6 off or is there lots of extending and ďaskingĒ you to stretch your on days?

1212135
05-05-2019, 09:02 AM
Iím interested in a PIC opening. Anyone able to weigh in on their experience going that route? Pay and benefits seem very decent and the 8/6 at least has predictability which Iím lacking on call. I expect they work you pretty good on your 8. Do you go into your rotation knowing what the week entails (more or less), or is it more like you get tomorrowís info the night before? Do they respect the 6 off or is there lots of extending and ďaskingĒ you to stretch your on days?

Pay if you go PIC route 1st year is 90K you and your family medical is 100% paid. The 8/6 is industry standard. I have had day-8 that Iíve been home by lunch others I got home very close to midnight so it does vary widely. Depends on time of year and your home base vs what side of country you are on for that rotation. 90% of the time you find out your next days scheduale around 3-5pm. Itís subject to change but usually you will know the evening before. Yes they absolutely respect the 6 days off. Now sometimes they will offer premium pay but itís not a mandate. If itís not worth it to you, you can go home and wonít hear one word about it. They know they work us hard but they do respect are time off. I canít even find one pilot that has ever said they purposely forced them to work an extra day.

Venkman
05-05-2019, 11:08 AM
Pay if you go PIC route 1st year is 90K you and your family medical is 100% paid. The 8/6 is industry standard. I have had day-8 that Iíve been home by lunch others I got home very close to midnight so it does vary widely. Depends on time of year and your home base vs what side of country you are on for that rotation. 90% of the time you find out your next days scheduale around 3-5pm. Itís subject to change but usually you will know the evening before. Yes they absolutely respect the 6 days off. Now sometimes they will offer premium pay but itís not a mandate. If itís not worth it to you, you can go home and wonít hear one word about it. They know they work us hard but they do respect are time off. I canít even find one pilot that has ever said they purposely forced them to work an extra day.

Very cool, thank you. Yes 8/6 sounds just fine especially since theyíre adamant that travel is done on days 1 & 8. So 6 days off is truly 6 days off. Most of what Iím able to find is neutral to positive with very few complaints. Thatís as close to a glowing recommendation as youíll find on the internet!

Das Auto
05-06-2019, 07:05 AM
Very cool, thank you. Yes 8/6 sounds just fine especially since theyíre adamant that travel is done on days 1 & 8. So 6 days off is truly 6 days off. Most of what Iím able to find is neutral to positive with very few complaints. Thatís as close to a glowing recommendation as youíll find on the internet!

Your travel is done on days 1 & 8 but you will likely fly 1 or 2 legs on those days too. The biggest compliant that most people have about this place is getting home on day 8.
If you're a West coast based pilot for example and you end your tour on the East coast, you will have a long day ahead of you. If you duty on at 6am (3am on your West Coast body clock) then duty off at 2pm for your 4pm flight home, you'll likely be walking through the door at around 11pm if you have a connection in the middle. That's 2am in the time zone you started in, 20 hours after you dutied on.

In this scenario you would receive $500 overtime for arriving home after midnight in the time zone you started in, but I think most people would rather see their wife and kids before everyone turns in for the night. If you live close to a major hub you may get home a little earlier.

Health insurance is excellent, the aircraft are well maintained, the hotels are nice and you are never pressured to fly during your 6 days off.

Guard
05-06-2019, 07:24 AM
I’m interested in a PIC opening. Anyone able to weigh in on their experience going that route? Pay and benefits seem very decent and the 8/6 at least has predictability which I’m lacking on call. I expect they work you pretty good on your 8. Do you go into your rotation knowing what the week entails (more or less), or is it more like you get tomorrow’s info the night before? Do they respect the 6 off or is there lots of extending and “asking” you to stretch your on days?

I got hired as PIC and was really pretty happy with it, pay was good, very good benefits etc. I also like their hiring process, one Skype interview and your pretty much told your hired. I put in my App and got an email same day. Home based is awesome if you would have to commute for a major. Good people at Gama, good atmosphere, chief pilot was a bit cocky (very young) for me but whatever, hope to never see him. Overall I thought it was a great place. I left for NJA only because it was more money and 7/7 in a jet that does a lot of coast to coast and Caribbean and South America, but WU has a great model for who they are targeting as customers. Can't say a bad thing about the place (still where my swag on days off-nice stuff). If you do get hired heed the advice and start the CBT's as soon as you get access, they say a week, I did 6 hours a day for 2 weeks!

Venkman
05-06-2019, 07:46 AM
I got hired as PIC and was really pretty happy with it, pay was good, very good benefits etc. I also like their hiring process, one Skype interview and your pretty much told your hired. I put in my App and got an email same day. Home based is awesome if you would have to commute for a major. Good people at Gama, good atmosphere, chief pilot was a bit cocky (very young) for me but whatever, hope to never see him. Overall I thought it was a great place. I left for NJA only because it was more money and 7/7 in a jet that does a lot of coast to coast and Caribbean and South America, but WU has a great model for who they are targeting as customers. Can't say a bad thing about the place (still where my swag on days off-nice stuff). If you do get hired heed the advice and start the CBT's as soon as you get access, they say a week, I did 6 hours a day for 2 weeks!

Fantastic. Thank you for the info, I'm looking forward to pursuing it. I've done CTS back in my 135 days so I have no illusions of brevity... :D

MaxMar
05-06-2019, 11:11 AM
On the online FO job posting, stated minimums are simply ATP. How much simulator time will they allow as part of the 50 multi hours required? I know the regionals are maxing it out at 25 hours.

By the time Iíd be applying Iíd have about 2000 TT, with ~1000 TPIC and ~1000 135 experience, but all in PC-12s. At the moment Iím only sitting on 24 hours of Seminole time and realistically by the time I could apply Iíd have a little Aztec time on top of that.

EMAW
05-06-2019, 02:03 PM
On the online FO job posting, stated minimums are simply ATP. How much simulator time will they allow as part of the 50 multi hours required? I know the regionals are maxing it out at 25 hours.

By the time Iíd be applying Iíd have about 2000 TT, with ~1000 TPIC and ~1000 135 experience, but all in PC-12s. At the moment Iím only sitting on 24 hours of Seminole time and realistically by the time I could apply Iíd have a little Aztec time on top of that.

Get as much as you can in an airplane. Maybe someone else who went through can chime in, but as I donít think they get anywhere near the max 25 hr credit in the sim if they can avoid it.

Flaps8posrate
05-06-2019, 06:23 PM
Iím not there, but I was told directly that 300 multi turbine or 500 multi piston hours are the absolute lower limits for any FO applicants, insurance drives this.

On the online FO job posting, stated minimums are simply ATP. How much simulator time will they allow as part of the 50 multi hours required? I know the regionals are maxing it out at 25 hours.

By the time Iíd be applying Iíd have about 2000 TT, with ~1000 TPIC and ~1000 135 experience, but all in PC-12s. At the moment Iím only sitting on 24 hours of Seminole time and realistically by the time I could apply Iíd have a little Aztec time on top of that.

majorpilot
05-06-2019, 07:04 PM
Prove to us that YOUR opinion is correct. Post proof that WU doesn't cut corners or knowingly allow violations.



Please be specific.



And just because the company hasn't been caught by the FAA doesn't mean they aren't committing violations. It just means they've gotten away with it up to now.



So back up your opinions with verifiable evidence.


Iím not a GAMA pilot, just a casual reader who understands reason and logic. The statement above is unreasonable and illogical.

One cannot prove a negative: ďProve you are NOT a murderer.Ē Itís impossible.

That someone has never been violated doesnít mean they will never be, of course, but itís solid evidence theyíve never been violated. Itís reasonable to infer a poor safety culture would be reflected in violations.

An accusation is not an opinion. And the party making an accusation has the burden of substantiating it; if they cannot, it deserves to be ignored.

This is just common sense. But alas that is often uncommon...

1212135
05-07-2019, 03:41 AM
Iím not a GAMA pilot, just a casual reader who understands reason and logic. The statement above is unreasonable and illogical.

One cannot prove a negative: ďProve you are NOT a murderer.Ē Itís impossible.

That someone has never been violated doesnít mean they will never be, of course, but itís solid evidence theyíve never been violated. Itís reasonable to infer a poor safety culture would be reflected in violations.

An accusation is not an opinion. And the party making an accusation has the burden of substantiating it; if they cannot, it deserves to be ignored.

This is just common sense. But alas that is often uncommon...

Oh pay no attention to Brody comments. He has a personal problem with Gama. Heís a leftists scam artist. Heís never wrong and will be mad at the world forever. We gave him every opportunity in the world to inform the world of what happened to him. He thinks Gama has agents following him around trying to destroy him. We all have work for bad companies before. Itís fair to bash companies but one must give a little facts on what happen to be taken seriously.

CJflyer74
05-10-2019, 11:23 AM
Iíve been thinking about applying for a FO position with WU. I certainly meet the mins (have an ATP and 500 multi-jet). I just wanted to get some feedback from the current pilots on something a little more subjective. How do you all like flying the King Air 350 on an eight day stretch? Are you counting the days until you are upgraded to the jet fleet, or are you enjoying it?

I think the King Air 350 looks like it would be a very fun airplane. I have some experience in the Pilatus PC-12 and really enjoyed it. A buddy of mine who is in jets recently remarked to me that flying a King Air that much (on an eight day schedule) would be awful (as compared to working in jets). I know youíre cruising lower and dealing with more weather, but that doesnít really bother me. My eventual goal is not the major airlines, which is also why I donít mind going from jets to props. Any thoughts on how you all do or donít like the airplane? Thanks very much.

Busdriver91
05-10-2019, 12:40 PM
Iíve been thinking about applying for a FO position with WU. I certainly meet the mins (have an ATP and 500 multi-jet). I just wanted to get some feedback from the current pilots on something a little more subjective. How do you all like flying the King Air 350 on an eight day stretch? Are you counting the days until you are upgraded to the jet fleet, or are you enjoying it?

I think the King Air 350 looks like it would be a very fun airplane. I have some experience in the Pilatus PC-12 and really enjoyed it. A buddy of mine who is in jets recently remarked to me that flying a King Air that much (on an eight day schedule) would be awful (as compared to working in jets). I know youíre cruising lower and dealing with more weather, but that doesnít really bother me. My eventual goal is not the major airlines, which is also why I donít mind going from jets to props. Any thoughts on how you all do or donít like the airplane? Thanks very much.

I personally love to fly the king air and enjoy my 8 days flying it. Most of my colleagues would agree with me. Donít apply if you have shiny new jet syndrome, we are a company that flies king airs with a few jets in the mix...not the other way around. Guys are regularly moving to the jets but itíll take a year or two at least.

USMCFLYR
05-10-2019, 03:38 PM
I donít work for Gamma and donít fly for 8 days in a row; but I came from Marine tactical air and my organization flies King Air 309s, L60s, and Challenger 601/04/05s. Iíve been asked to transition to all of them and I have chosen to stay in the King Air.

I love it!

CJflyer74
05-10-2019, 04:06 PM
Busdriver91 and USMCFLYR... thanks for your responses. I think I would really like the King Air as well, but itís great to hear about the airplane from pilots currently flying it for a living.

Would the company allow San Diego as a base / gateway airport? I imagine it would just make days one and eight a little rougher on me, but I really like Southern CA. I currently live in the Mid-Atlantic area. Just considering the move west. Thanks again.

Busdriver91
05-10-2019, 04:46 PM
Busdriver91 and USMCFLYR... thanks for your responses. I think I would really like the King Air as well, but itís great to hear about the airplane from pilots currently flying it for a living.

Would the company allow San Diego as a base / gateway airport? I imagine it would just make days one and eight a little rougher on me, but I really like Southern CA. I currently live in the Mid-Atlantic area. Just considering the move west. Thanks again.

San Diego is a base.

CJflyer74
05-10-2019, 04:54 PM
San Diego is a base.

Okay, great. Thanks.

Guard
05-12-2019, 03:41 AM
Iíve been thinking about applying for a FO position with WU. I certainly meet the mins (have an ATP and 500 multi-jet). I just wanted to get some feedback from the current pilots on something a little more subjective. How do you all like flying the King Air 350 on an eight day stretch? Are you counting the days until you are upgraded to the jet fleet, or are you enjoying it?

I think the King Air 350 looks like it would be a very fun airplane. I have some experience in the Pilatus PC-12 and really enjoyed it. A buddy of mine who is in jets recently remarked to me that flying a King Air that much (on an eight day schedule) would be awful (as compared to working in jets). I know youíre cruising lower and dealing with more weather, but that doesnít really bother me. My eventual goal is not the major airlines, which is also why I donít mind going from jets to props. Any thoughts on how you all do or donít like the airplane? Thanks very much.


flew it for a bit, I thought it was a lot of work, beast to fly and back breaking to stock because you cannot stand up, but WU is a good place to be, you will never get on a jet at Gama in my opinion!

Speed
05-14-2019, 11:49 AM
Iíve been thinking about applying for a FO position with WU. I certainly meet the mins (have an ATP and 500 multi-jet). I just wanted to get some feedback from the current pilots on something a little more subjective. How do you all like flying the King Air 350 on an eight day stretch? Are you counting the days until you are upgraded to the jet fleet, or are you enjoying it?

I think the King Air 350 looks like it would be a very fun airplane. I have some experience in the Pilatus PC-12 and really enjoyed it. A buddy of mine who is in jets recently remarked to me that flying a King Air that much (on an eight day schedule) would be awful (as compared to working in jets). I know youíre cruising lower and dealing with more weather, but that doesnít really bother me. My eventual goal is not the major airlines, which is also why I donít mind going from jets to props. Any thoughts on how you all do or donít like the airplane? Thanks very much.

I transitioned to the King Air after retirement from airlines, last 20 years flying FK28, DC9, B737, and B767. Prior to those aircraft I did spend a good bit of time in turboprops, such as the Metro, so perhaps that made the transition back to props easier for me. I personally think the King Air is a great airplane to operate. Very forgiving and a good performer. I've flown it single-pilot for other operators, and found it a good platform for that. There's a good reason that thousands and thousands of them have been produced.

At this point in my career, I would definitely prefer not to be on the road for 8 days at a time regardless of the airplane type, but in my short time at GAMA I haven't found the workload too intense by any means. I've put in longer days and had more responsibilities with other 135 operators. Even after a lifetime of it I still enjoy getting out and flying the line, so my opinion may be an exception.

El Pilot
05-14-2019, 01:44 PM
What's a typical day like at WU? I'm coming from a cargo Feeder background, usually flying from an outstation to hub and back. Pretty lazy boy QOL, but I'm obviously looking to flying bigger and better things than a 208. Just want to get an idea for other non flying duties and crew life on the road.

EMAW
05-14-2019, 05:15 PM
What's a typical day like at WU? I'm coming from a cargo Feeder background, usually flying from an outstation to hub and back. Pretty lazy boy QOL, but I'm obviously looking to flying bigger and better things than a 208. Just want to get an idea for other non flying duties and crew life on the road.

There isnít a typical day, it varies widely. Iíve been standby at home, hotel standby babysitting a broke airplane, airport standby as a backup, and flown anywhere between 1 and 7 legs in a day. 8 day tours are generally between 15 and 25 hrs, but Iíve seen as many as 35 or 40 in the seat. Most duty days are 10-14 hrs, no matter whether you are standing by or flying, although some of that is generally from the hotel.

David Puddy
05-15-2019, 04:35 AM
There isnít a typical day, it varies widely. Iíve been standby at home, hotel standby babysitting a broke airplane, airport standby as a backup, and flown anywhere between 1 and 7 legs in a day. 8 day tours are generally between 15 and 25 hrs, but Iíve seen as many as 35 or 40 in the seat. Most duty days are 10-14 hrs, no matter whether you are standing by or flying, although some of that is generally from the hotel.

Is it fair to say the KA pilots who fly predominantly on the East Coast fly more per month (on average) than the West Coast based KA Pilots? Obviously you could hit both coasts on a tour but it seems like the East Coast based pilots fly A LOT - especially in the summer with all of the short hop HTO/HYA/MVY/ACK flying.

Also, is there a geographic division for the PL21 and PL Fusion use in the KA? Will the KA fleet eventually be standardized with one or the other?

1212135
05-15-2019, 08:10 AM
Is it fair to say the KA pilots who fly predominantly on the East Coast fly more per month (on average) than the West Coast based KA Pilots? Obviously you could hit both coasts on a tour but it seems like the East Coast based pilots fly A LOT - especially in the summer with all of the short hop HTO/HYA/MVY/ACK flying.

Also, is there a geographic division for the PL21 and PL Fusion use in the KA? Will the KA fleet eventually be standardized with one or the other?

Not really West Coast has Fusion and PL21 I doubt WUP/GAMA cares as from a customer service stand point they are uniformed. Unless you have only been with GAMA 6 months or less your qualified on both types. So I highly doubt that Fusion/PL21 plays any roll in there planning. ďRumorĒ has it they keep a certain amount of aircraft in a geographical region. But not tail number specific.

hdgbug
05-15-2019, 08:36 AM
Is it fair to say the KA pilots who fly predominantly on the East Coast fly more per month (on average) than the West Coast based KA Pilots? Obviously you could hit both coasts on a tour but it seems like the East Coast based pilots fly A LOT - especially in the summer with all of the short hop HTO/HYA/MVY/ACK flying.

I have done a fair amount of flying on both coasts, and from my experience you fly roughly the same number of hours per tour on either coast. However, on the east coast you are more likely to fly more legs in order to get those hours. Out west I average longer legs than out east. That being said, you could end up going from the NE to FL all tour and have long legs out east, or you could end up doing short hops between LAX/PSP/SAN out west. You just never know.

hdgbug
05-15-2019, 08:40 AM
ďRumorĒ has it they keep a certain amount of aircraft in a geographical region. But not tail number specific.

I have heard from an ops supervisor that they do intentionally keep a certain number of aircraft on the west coast. Apparently if the schedule is allowed to play out naturally all the planes slowly get pulled east and they wouldn't be able to meet the obligations to the members out west.

tohellandback
05-15-2019, 10:40 AM
Does anyone have the latest interview gouge? Is the interview sim ride still in a B1900? I have over 8K hrs twin-turbine and an ATP. is that competitive for a street captain slot? Thanks.

1212135
05-15-2019, 12:09 PM
Does anyone have the latest interview gouge? Is the interview sim ride still in a B1900? I have over 8K hrs twin-turbine and an ATP. is that competitive for a street captain slot? Thanks.

Part135 general opsec (EOD, Alternate requirements, takeoff minimum etc. nothing to brain busting).. FaceTime:Skype interview only. Chief Pilot makes determination on DEC slots. Itís more or less do you meet insurance minimum for DEC.

Guard
05-16-2019, 05:38 AM
Does anyone have the latest interview gouge? Is the interview sim ride still in a B1900? I have over 8K hrs twin-turbine and an ATP. is that competitive for a street captain slot? Thanks.

Send in the online form, you'll get a call same day, I have 6000 Turbine and ATP and was hired for left seat within 3 days!

CJflyer74
05-16-2019, 11:11 AM
I'm in the process of applying for a FO slot. Hoping that all goes well and that I'll be joining you all soon.

Quick question regarding the upgrade to captain requirements for King Air FOs... Is anyone aware of FOs getting a waiver for the 3000 hours of fixed-wing time required before the upgrade?

I'm hoping that if selected, I could potentially make the upgrade after 2,000 to 2,500 total fixed-wing time. I have a lot of turbine helicopter time, and I'm hoping that would be taken into consideration.

I'm willing to put in every hour of time required for the upgrade even if the waiver isn't possible. It would just be nice to know if that sort of waiver is common. Thanks for all helpful replies!

EMAW
05-16-2019, 12:32 PM
I'm in the process of applying for a FO slot. Hoping that all goes well and that I'll be joining you all soon.

Quick question regarding the upgrade to captain requirements for King Air FOs... Is anyone aware of FOs getting a waiver for the 3000 hours of fixed-wing time required before the upgrade?

I'm hoping that if selected, I could potentially make the upgrade after 2,000 to 2,500 total fixed-wing time. I have a lot of turbine helicopter time, and I'm hoping that would be taken into consideration.

I'm willing to put in every hour of time required for the upgrade even if the waiver isn't possible. It would just be nice to know if that sort of waiver is common. Thanks for all helpful replies!

Thatíd be a great thing to ask your interviewer when the time comes. Whatís your time now? Fixed total and total total.

CJflyer74
05-16-2019, 01:30 PM
Thatíd be a great thing to ask your interviewer when the time comes. Whatís your time now? Fixed total and total total.

I have 1000 airplane total now (with 500+ multi-jet). My total time including my helicopter experience is 5000+. Thanks.

1212135
05-16-2019, 03:05 PM
I have 1000 airplane total now (with 500+ multi-jet). My total time including my helicopter experience is 5000+. Thanks.

I think the better question maybe what are the insurance minimums. There a lot of good quality FO trying to upgrade, but itís the independent auditors of ARGUS/WYVERN that set the Insurance standards of what GAMA can do. You may need 1500 PIC hours fixed wing regardless of Total time if I remember correctly and that can take awhile as in if you do fly KA 50% of time youíd need 3,000hrs in (or MEL) to meet minimums. I have seen some broken hearts over this. Guys with 0 PIC and find out 1500 of PIC is needed per insurance standards. Unless there Captain lets them fly every leg it will be along upgrade time.

CJflyer74
05-16-2019, 04:03 PM
I think the better question maybe what are the insurance minimums. There a lot of good quality FO trying to upgrade, but itís the independent auditors of ARGUS/WYVERN that set the Insurance standards of what GAMA can do. You may need 1500 PIC hours fixed wing regardless of Total time if I remember correctly and that can take awhile as in if you do fly KA 50% of time youíd need 3,000hrs in (or MEL) to meet minimums. I have seen some broken hearts over this. Guys with 0 PIC and find out 1500 of PIC is needed per insurance standards. Unless there Captain lets them fly every leg it will be along upgrade time.

That makes sense. It all comes down to insurance I guess. Do the FOs at Wheels Up fly every other leg? And although my company title is First Officer, can I log every leg I fly as PIC time? I assume that's what you meant by 50% of your time counting towards the 1500 PIC requirement.

I currently have 600 PIC fixed-wing. So, with an average of 500 hours flown each year and 250 PIC each year, I would be looking at roughly 3.5 years to reach 1500 PIC for the upgrade. That would also put my total airplane time at just under the 3000 total requirement. Does that sound about right?

Thanks for your help.

1212135
05-16-2019, 05:22 PM
That makes sense. It all comes down to insurance I guess. Do the FOs at Wheels Up fly every other leg? And although my company title is First Officer, can I log every leg I fly as PIC time? I assume that's what you meant by 50% of your time counting towards the 1500 PIC requirement.

I currently have 600 PIC fixed-wing. So, with an average of 500 hours flown each year and 250 PIC each year, I would be looking at roughly 3.5 years to reach 1500 PIC for the upgrade. That would also put my total airplane time at just under the 3000 total requirement. Does that sound about right?

Thanks for your help.
If you are type rated on the airplane and your flying YES! People will argue ( NO itís not PIC) but per FAA general Council statement yes you can. And most 135 carriers say the same thing. Now Part 121 will never except PIC unless your left seat/ on dispatch paperwork. But itís the companies that donít except that. But hey thatís free market for you. One mans loss is another mans win!

But like I said ask GAMA what they need Iím not an expert on insurance and there policy.

tohellandback
05-16-2019, 06:56 PM
Is anyone flying for Gama living in Spokane? I'm thinking of moving there.

Macjet
05-22-2019, 09:32 AM
If you are type rated on the airplane and your flying YES! People will argue ( NO itís not PIC) but per FAA general Council statement yes you can. And most 135 carriers say the same thing. Now Part 121 will never except PIC unless your left seat/ on dispatch paperwork. But itís the companies that donít except that. But hey thatís free market for you. One mans loss is another mans win!

But like I said ask GAMA what they need Iím not an expert on insurance and there policy.

This is the worst advise. Ever. Pilot in Command means the guy in COMMAND. That would be the Captain or Aircraft Commander. Now, if you want to keep track of your 'sole manipulator' time for ARGUS then have at it. Just know that if you ever try to go to anything larger than a King Air for WU you'll be laughed out of the interview with your First Officer 'PIC' time.

1212135
05-22-2019, 12:51 PM
This is the worst advise. Ever. Pilot in Command means the guy in COMMAND. That would be the Captain or Aircraft Commander. Now, if you want to keep track of your 'sole manipulator' time for ARGUS then have at it. Just know that if you ever try to go to anything larger than a King Air for WU you'll be laughed out of the interview with your First Officer 'PIC' time.

Didnít I mention that most 121 carriers would not except it but thatís a company policy. And like it or not FAA general council has ruled on it. So Iím not sure what your point is?? There are some pilots that record time from when the breaks get released at the gate. Others only record air-time only. If you donít like it ďBĒ to the FAA general Council not me. Plus a lot of 121 regionals to get DEC have seen it this way to fill there depleted ranks. I agree your assessment that Delta/AA/United/SWA/NK/NJA/etc...have no reason to as upgrade times are years away for a new FO. They get the same training and flight time a 135 guy does before commanding an airplane zero. so if Daddyís a CP at one of above mentioned airlines. A FO could technically upgrade with ZERO PIC time and command a plane. OR are you telling me ( above mentioned airlines) tell new captain go take the A320 in the pattern for 1000 hours????? Only reason why we are even arguing over this is an Argus issue for insuring part 135 operations. It has nothing else to do with anything else. Sorry if it hurts your feelings. A 121 carriers can hire a man with 1500 and and ATP and make him a 787 captain. They donít but very possible as they donít have an over sight company like Argus

Are you one of those pilots that instead of guessing instrument time like most pilots do. You sit there with a stop watch on a 6 hour cross country flight??? Because if I find out your lying by even one minute of your instrument time..... we will just leave it at that.

But yes I will address your point a 121 mainline carrier will not accept that time. But isnít this a 135 thread????

1212135
05-22-2019, 01:31 PM
This is the worst advise. Ever. Pilot in Command means the guy in COMMAND. That would be the Captain or Aircraft Commander. Now, if you want to keep track of your 'sole manipulator' time for ARGUS then have at it. Just know that if you ever try to go to anything larger than a King Air for WU you'll be laughed out of the interview with your First Officer 'PIC' time.

Also I will address the reason why it done this way. Argus/WYVERN say to ďABCĒ part 135 carrier your pilot needs 1000 PIC 250 intype PIC ( Generals numbers) for us to insure your carrier/airline. So new FO out of flight school sits smiling face in right seat for 5 years till his day arrives ď Upgrade dayĒ
But in order for ABC carrier to allow his new upgrade A/W requires as above mentioned hours. OH WAIT! He has nothing because you claim it doesnít count. So how is ABC able to get captains flying there airplanes?? And yes I have flown larger aircraft than a KingAir under that ruling. I have 7 type ratings. All bigger than a KingAir. Iíve flown to Hawaii and Europe. So feel free to call me out. Only reason why I have downgraded to a smaller plane was QOL scheduale the 24/7 on call world didnít work for my family when kids came along.

EMAW
05-22-2019, 09:21 PM
Also I will address the reason why it done this way. Argus/WYVERN say to “ABC” part 135 carrier your pilot needs 1000 PIC 250 intype PIC ( Generals numbers) for us to insure your carrier/airline. So new FO out of flight school sits smiling face in right seat for 5 years till his day arrives “ Upgrade day”
But in order for ABC carrier to allow his new upgrade A/W requires as above mentioned hours. OH WAIT! He has nothing because you claim it doesn’t count. So how is ABC able to get captains flying there airplanes?? And yes I have flown larger aircraft than a KingAir under that ruling. I have 7 type ratings. All bigger than a KingAir. I’ve flown to Hawaii and Europe. So feel free to call me out. Only reason why I have downgraded to a smaller plane was QOL scheduale the 24/7 on call world didn’t work for my family when kids came along.

He was talking about trying to go to an airline. They will not accept “sole manipulator” time as PIC. Speaking of the big 3 and probably others.

The only stipulation on logging in the regs is for currency and in furtherance of a certificate. You can log whatever the hell you want, but when you are sitting in front of a panel of your peers asking for your career job, you better be able to back up what’s in your logbook. Personally I never logged sole manipulator as PIC because I didn’t need it, but if I did need it I would have separated it into another column.

PS The company has records of your flight time both PF AND PM, so the need to log it personally here is non-existent.

Das Auto
05-22-2019, 09:41 PM
He was talking about trying to go to an airline. They will not accept ďsole manipulatorĒ time as PIC. Speaking of the big 3 and probably others.

PS The company has records of your flight time both PF AND PM, so the need to log it personally here is non-existent.

I agree. If you're listed as PIC on the trip sheet / dispatch release you log it as PIC. If you're listed as SIC you're SIC.
If you're logging PIC time just because you're sole manipulator of the controls and the other guy is listed as PIC, you're going to have both pilots logging PIC and that's not good.

If an interviewer suspects for a minute that you falsified your log book citing a technicality its not going to go well. I've seen some resumes with half of the time listed as instrument. It just looks bad. IFR is not necessarily IMC. Anything that looks suspicious is going to raise eyebrows.

1212135
05-23-2019, 02:43 AM
I agree. If you're listed as PIC on the trip sheet / dispatch release you log it as PIC. If you're listed as SIC you're SIC.
If you're logging PIC time just because you're sole manipulator of the controls and the other guy is listed as PIC, you're going to have both pilots logging PIC and that's not good.

If an interviewer suspects for a minute that you falsified your log book citing a technicality its not going to go well. I've seen some resumes with half of the time listed as instrument. It just looks bad. IFR is not necessarily IMC. Anything that looks suspicious is going to raise eyebrows.

Not here to Argue but here you go. General Councel Statement datedFeb 9 1999 Paragraph E (2)
ďWhile it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously.Ē

Signed
D.Brent Pope
Attorney, AHM-7H

There a whole paragraphed stating why. I did my homework....NEXT. Now maybe there validation to the point as how many of your flight hours were logged as Captain PIC but they only ask for your PIC hours. However my statement stands that it is legal. It just may not be accepted at PART121 carriers. ( But as ive mentioned before regional airlines have accepted it before when pilots were hard to come by so donít say no airlines will accept that.) Once again the whole logic of it make complete sense. A brand new FO gets hired at ABC airlines. 1500 hrs. Letís say 300 hours of thatís PIC. As an FO he would be logging Zero PIC but we all know one day he will upgrade one day. How is it that he was able to achieve 700 hrs PIC and 250 PIC in type if these hours didnít count?

PM me for PDF of whole statement. Sorry canít seem to get a download on this forum.

1212135
05-23-2019, 03:08 AM
He was talking about trying to go to an airline. They will not accept ďsole manipulatorĒ time as PIC. Speaking of the big 3 and probably others.

The only stipulation on logging in the regs is for currency and in furtherance of a certificate. You can log whatever the hell you want, but when you are sitting in front of a panel of your peers asking for your career job, you better be able to back up whatís in your logbook. Personally I never logged sole manipulator as PIC because I didnít need it, but if I did need it I would have separated it into another column.

PS The company has records of your flight time both PF AND PM, so the need to log it personally here is non-existent.

I understand but the whole point of my post was a Pilot was interest in coming to a part 135 airline. Macjet came out of know where with ď DeltaĒ wonít accept that blah blah blah... I even said in my initial statement airlines probably wouldnít accept it but that is a company policy not FAA policy/stance. Iím arguing with Mainline/NJA pilot on a GAMA forum.

Like I said PM if youíd like a copy of the General Councel statement.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 07:22 AM
I like the EMAW idea of having a separate column.
The PIC signs for the aircraft, has operational control, is the in flight security coordinator, is the person legally in charge of the aircraft, and is the person who has been designated to act as PIC by the air carrier.

If you are listed as the SIC on the trip sheet or dispatch release then you are not the person mentioned above and have no business claiming that you are in your log book.

Now, if the company was to take the time to list the guy as PIC on the non revenue / part 91 legs then that's a different story, but I've yet to see that happen at any company that I've worked for.

1212135
05-23-2019, 08:01 AM
I like the EMAW idea of having a separate column.
The PIC signs for the aircraft, has operational control, is the in flight security coordinator, is the person legally in charge of the aircraft, and is the person who has been designated to act as PIC by the air carrier.

If you are listed as the SIC on the trip sheet or dispatch release then you are not the person mentioned above and have no business claiming that you are in your log book.

Now, if the company was to take the time to list the guy as PIC on the non revenue / part 91 legs then that's a different story, but I've yet to see that happen at any company that I've worked for.

So your telling me on empty legs at GAMA or for that matter NJA XOjet FE etc. on empty legs Ops/dispatch changes the Trip sheet to show a FO as PIC ( Giving him full authority) and have him physically move into the left seat for appropriate logging of PIC time???????????

Iíve never seen that in my 16 years of flying. Unless the FO flying with a check airman.

And your answer will be ďNO they donít actually do thatĒ. I have never seen that done before either.... ***Bringing me back to my main point. How does any FO/SIC ever upgraded??? NEWS FLASH the time flown when appropriately ATP type rate in the aircraft as sole manipulator of flight controls is counted as PIC ***.

At some point a FO has to get some PIC experience whether thatís aircraft specific or general PIC time. And as we discussed before a company wonít put a SIC in the left seat with PIC authority. So a FO could never upgrade. And in the 135 world Argus and WYVERN pretty much have the insurability of a carrier in there hands and they do require PIC both in general and aircraft specific.

Regionals and Mainline carriers hire people lacking PIC all the time. They sit right seat til there day comes at the snap of a finger ( Bid award and a 2-3 week training course they are a Captain.). So any real notion of this mythical PIC is a company specific determination. And Yes I sat Right seat FO with a regional airline with maybe 250 SEL PIC, one day I got an email congrats you been awarded Captain. I didnít have 1000 PIC. Apparently it doesnít matter.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 08:18 AM
So your telling me on empty legs at GAMA or for that matter NJA XOjet FE etc. on empty legs Ops/dispatch changes the Trip sheet to show a FO as PIC ( Giving him full authority) and have him physically move into the left seat for appropriate logging of PIC time???????????

Iíve never seen that in my 16 years of flying. Unless the FO flying with a check airman.

And your answer will be ďNO they donít actually do thatĒ. I have never seen that done before either.... ***Bringing me back to my main point. How does any FO/SIC ever upgraded??? NEWS FLASH the time flown when appropriately ATP type rate in the aircraft as sole manipulator of flight controls is counted as PIC ***.

Newsflash? Easy there. No I'm not suggesting they do that, but if they did it would then be legal for the person to log their time as PIC assuming they we're typed.

To log PIC as you suggested just because you're pilot flying could bite someone in the butt and potentially ruin their chances of landing their dream job. It's irresponsible to suggest such thing on a public forum where people who don't know better look for advice.

1212135
05-23-2019, 08:29 AM
Newsflash? Easy there. No I'm not suggesting they do that, but if they did it would then be legal for the person to log their time as PIC assuming they we're typed.

To log PIC as you suggested just because you're pilot flying could bite someone in the butt and potentially ruin their chances of landing their dream job. It's irresponsible to suggest such thing on a public forum where people who don't know better look for advice.

Well that the real problem at some airlines. This isnít a court of law that you get to produce evidence to dispute there though process. ((( Keep in mind we are also talking about the same companies that wonít interview a pilot with 8,000 plus hours clean record and a 4 year degree, but will hire a 1501hr pilot with no college degree bc hes related to a pilot at that company))). They are the judge jury and executioner.

HERE GOE FOR EVERYONE!!
***Don't apply at Mainline carriers using PIC hours that werenít left seat trip sheet authorized. Also donít wear red underwear to a interview at a Mainline carrier bc if the HR personnel doesnít like it that could ruin your chances of a career there too.****

Macjet
05-23-2019, 09:20 AM
I understand but the whole point of my post was a Pilot was interest in coming to a part 135 airline. Macjet came out of know where with ď DeltaĒ wonít accept that blah blah blah... I even said in my initial statement airlines probably wouldnít accept it but that is a company policy not FAA policy/stance. Iím arguing with Mainline/NJA pilot on a GAMA forum.

Like I said PM if youíd like a copy of the General Councel statement.

Few people aspire to be a 135 guy for life. It's usually a stepping stone to something that pays better, with better benefits, and with more time off. I know, I've been there.

And the FAA General Counsel doesn't hire line pilots. The airlines do. So, it really doesn't matter what the FAA GC says about logging anything when it comes to your logbook in an airline interview. Having no PIC time is not a hinderance anymore but falsifying your logbook and claiming PIC time as the FO would be.

There's a TOTD thread I think you should go check into as well.

USMCFLYR
05-23-2019, 09:42 AM
You guys really need to realize the two different types of PIC logging being discussed here. What the FAA ALLOWS and what COMPANIES desire in their hiring criteria. Trying to cross the streams is just arguing with apparently neither side understanding the other.

Das Auto - I know you are very experience and are well respected on the forum, but saying ď...but if they did it would then be legal for the person to log their time as PIC assuming they we're typed...Ē really makes it sound like you donít know that IT IS LEGAL to log sole manipulator time. Some COMPANIES, due to their own hiring criteria (not talking LEGALITY), may decided not to count such time at their discretion.

The best advice so far given, at near the beginning of this whole thread, was you can log what is legal, but when applying to X, Y, or Z company - you had better know their specific requirements.

No Macjet....he shouldnít.
He very clearly said what you just said early on.
YOU just canít say ĎI understand what you saying, just people should be careful when applyingí no understanding or compromise - just your way or the highway. Youíre also experienced enough in many sectors of aviation and this forum that you should more mature in your approach....IMO.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 11:22 AM
Its illegal to drink on the beach in Hawaii. Solution? Wade into the ocean before you crack open your beer. A good lawyer would probably get you off a ticket citing some legal technicality, but the intent of the law has been breeched.

Personally, I try to keep my logbook as transparent and unambiguous as possible. If I'm PIC on the trip sheet I log PIC in my logbook. If I'm SIC I log my time in the SIC column, even if I'm flying captain on captain. If I'm cleared for an ILS approach I fly the ILS profile and log an ILS approach. If I'm cleared for a visual approach I fly and log a visual approach. No games, no technicalities no gray areas. Just a factual record of every flight since my first flying lesson 15 years ago.

Each to their own. I doubt any recruiter, airline or otherwise would be impressed by someone's ability to manipulate the numbers in their favor though. That's just my perspective from someone who's been on both sides of the interviewing table.

1212135
05-23-2019, 11:43 AM
Its illegal to drink on the beach in Hawaii. Solution? Wade into the ocean before you crack open your beer. A good lawyer would probably get you off a ticket citing some legal technicality, but the intent of the law has been breeched.

Personally, I try to keep my logbook as transparent and unambiguous as possible. If I'm PIC on the trip sheet I log PIC in my logbook. If I'm SIC I log my time in the SIC column, even if I'm flying captain on captain. If I'm cleared for an ILS approach I fly the ILS profile and log an ILS approach. If I'm cleared for a visual approach I fly and log a visual approach. No games, no technicalities no gray areas. Just a factual record of every flight since my first flying lesson 15 years ago.

Each to their own. I doubt any recruiter, airline or otherwise would be impressed by someone's ability to manipulate the numbers in their favor though. That's just my perspective from someone who's been on both sides of the interviewing table.

So if the law allows you to do something legally you shouldnít? Doesnít ďAirlinesĒuse excuses like weather to avoid Maintence cancellations in order not to pay for passengers hotels? Because one is a controllable factor of the airlines and the other is not. Seems like ďAirlinesĒ uses the laws of the US to there advantage themselves. Many documented case of that. I understand as an interviewer your thought process can vary based on a Companies health and needs. If your short 30 pilots and only have 15 applicants due to pilot shortages and interviewer can easily change there opinion one day to the next. Infact their boss would insist on it as a plane sitting idle cost money. 2008 if you werenít an Astronaut you werenít getting a interview. 2015 we will pay you 57,000 and give you seniority credit for any company youíve worked for just to come work for us. They didnít say ďah Iím not changing my standardsĒ
Letís put this in to a time frame for you
2008-3000+ hrs or no interview
2010-2000+ we may interview you
2012-1500 as the ATP rules coming into play
2015-ATP license and 1000 hrs (SIC or PIC of part 121/135 we will make you a DEC
2017-ATP restricted 20,000 bonus
2019-ATP restricted or we will pay for part of your flight school 50,000 bonus and give you flow thru mainline.

Iím done arguing this point USMCFLYER said it perfectly. Itís legal but do your homework on where your interviewing you can very easily say something an HR rep doesnít like or think itís politically incorrect and lose your shot. Long before your log book hours come in to question.

Venkman
05-23-2019, 12:34 PM
Few people aspire to be a 135 guy for life. It's usually a stepping stone to something that pays better, with better benefits, and with more time off. I know, I've been there.

And the FAA General Counsel doesn't hire line pilots. The airlines do. So, it really doesn't matter what the FAA GC says about logging anything when it comes to your logbook in an airline interview. Having no PIC time is not a hinderance anymore but falsifying your logbook and claiming PIC time as the FO would be.

There's a TOTD thread I think you should go check into as well.

This. All the way.

PIC stands for Pilot In Command. If I'm not the Pilot In Command, I don't log it as PIC. Period. The only possible reason to split hairs about sole manipulator time is to be able to log it, so as to meet some hiring criteria somewhere. Let's not all pretend that isn't why we're having this discussion. You might trick their application screening criteria, but I promise you the interview won't go well when you start in with "well technically I logged it PIC because..."

Log what you want. It's your butt out there. Be smart.

USMCFLYR
05-23-2019, 12:43 PM
Its illegal to drink on the beach in Hawaii. Solution? Wade into the ocean before you crack open your beer. A good lawyer would probably get you off a ticket citing some legal technicality, but the intent of the law has been breeched.

Personally, I try to keep my logbook as transparent and unambiguous as possible. If I'm PIC on the trip sheet I log PIC in my logbook. If I'm SIC I log my time in the SIC column, even if I'm flying captain on captain. If I'm cleared for an ILS approach I fly the ILS profile and log an ILS approach. If I'm cleared for a visual approach I fly and log a visual approach. No games, no technicalities no gray areas. Just a factual record of every flight since my first flying lesson 15 years ago.

Each to their own. I doubt any recruiter, airline or otherwise would be impressed by someone's ability to manipulate the numbers in their favor though. That's just my perspective from someone who's been on both sides of the interviewing table.
That is the most conservative method and the one I use to (except for the logging of ILSs and visuals :confused:), but again....if are you analyzing my logbook at an interview and you see that I have sole manipulator time logged, and not used to meet any of your minimum requirements for employment, and you try to tell me it isnít right to log that - or worst yet that it is ILLEGAL; well Iím going to have to tell you in front of the entire board that you are mistaken and Iím going to be embarrassed for you in front of your peers and wonder myself if a company who uses to interview people has such a misunderstanding
Of the regulations is someplace I might be interested working (what else like duty times or rest periods or OpSpecs are they clueless on???) :confused:

Wow...another entrant who can seem to grasp what has been said time and time again :eek:

Dang the Internet is such a disappointment sometimes.
Not ALL jobs throughout oneís career have the same hiring criteria - letís not pretend they do.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 01:01 PM
That is the most conservative method and the one I use to (except for the logging of ILSs and visuals :confused:), but again....if are you analyzing my logbook at an interview and you see that I have sole manipulator time logged, and not used to meet any of your minimum requirements for employment, and you try to tell me it isn’t right to log that - or worst yet that it is ILLEGAL; well I’m going to have to tell you in front of the entire board that you are mistaken and I’m going to be embarrassed for you in front of your peers and wonder myself if a company who uses to interview people has such a misunderstanding
Of the regulations is someplace I might be interested working (what else like duty times or rest periods or OpSpecs are they clueless on???) :confused:

Wow...another entrant who can seem to grasp what has been said time and time again :eek:

Dang the Internet is such a disappointment sometimes.
Not ALL jobs throughout one’s career have the same hiring criteria - let’s not pretend they do.

No-one is suggesting that logging sole manipulator time is wrong or illegal. In fact I think its the best way to get around this problem.

But, the logging of PIC time when you're not the PIC because technically, in theory, in the opinion of etc. you legally could is a slippery slope. If you want to stand up and tell the interviewers that you're right and you feel sorry for them for being so ignorant, go for it. I can guarantee you that they won't be asking "when can you start?"

USMCFLYR
05-23-2019, 01:12 PM
No-one is suggesting that logging sole manipulator time is wrong or illegal. In fact I think its the best way to get around this problem.

But, the logging PIC time when you're not the PIC because technically, in theory, in the opinion of etc. you legally could is a slippery slope. If you want to stand up and tell the interviewers that you're right and you feel sorry for them for being so ignorant, go for it. I can guarantee you that they won't be asking "when can you start?"
But it isnít IN THEORY Das....it is 100% legal per the FARs.

As you say.....NO ONE is suggesting that if you are applying to Delta and they say they want you to only list PIC of record on your application and you donít do that then you are correct.

It isnít wrong, illegal, bad form, cutting the rules to close, disingenuous, or a slippery slope to have logged sole manipulator PIC time in your logbook.

It is all of those things above should you list them on a resume/application for a company that specifically states to list PIC OF RECORD time only.

And that just might be the best thing :)

1212135
05-23-2019, 01:18 PM
This. All the way.

PIC stands for Pilot In Command. If I'm not the Pilot In Command, I don't log it as PIC. Period. The only possible reason to split hairs about sole manipulator time is to be able to log it, so as to meet some hiring criteria somewhere. Let's not all pretend that isn't why we're having this discussion. You might trick their application screening criteria, but I promise you the interview won't go well when you start in with "well technically I logged it PIC because..."

Log what you want. It's your butt out there. Be smart.
I will stop saying itís ď technically legalĒ. It is legal.

Back in 1999 a FAA general Councel statement confirmed if you were appropriately type rated in an aircraft and you were the sole manipulator of the flight control ( Your flying leg) you could log it as PIC. ( Thatís black and white) I understand it was beneficial at the time to allow this for part 135/ 91 operations to meet upgrade time and standards for insurability. As I pointed out an FO would never accumulate the PIC time needed with out large financial burden on a company of flying empty planes around. ( And yes a little lobbying money probably helped) However the rule didnít change as time went on. The airlines (121) created there own system and terminology of what they implied was PIC. It wasnít law but it was an accepted practice or standard they adopted. Fast forward to 2010ish the law of the land became all carriers need to ATP type rated FO. Once again the logging of PIC when you were sole manipulator of flight controls did not change nor was an updated general Councel put out with regards to it. (( At least I have not seen any from the FAA, however if there is an updated FAA document Iíd love to see it)) So the airlines (121) have chosen to be more restrictive to there beliefs which is there right as a private company. They are not violating and laws by doing this. But it in no way is illegal to count that as PIC. I will grant you that a mainline part (121) or maybe NJA would not accept that. All I tired to do was help someone figure out if they met DEC minimums. I hope you understand I have no problem with you interpreting rule as you see fit. But like contracts in the real world itís up to a judge ( FAA in aviation world) to rule on legalities. And Iím sure some big companies have been told by their lawyers one thing only to have a judge overrule it the next day. Apple/Google/Delta/Trump/Democrats/Facebook/Amazon/Boeing/NFL. Have been wrong and have had to pay the price for being wrong. It may cost me a job at Mainline or it may cost mainline millions in unfair hiring compensation. Also a bad credit check could cost you a job at mainline too.

deadstick35
05-23-2019, 01:23 PM
If I'm cleared for an ILS approach I fly the ILS profile and log an ILS approach

You better make sure youíre operating in compliance with InFO 15012, specifically the NOTE in #4. Iíve been cleared for an ILS and seen the runway from 10 miles out. Just sayiní...

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2015/InFO15012.pdf

USMCFLYR is right. The standard is what the FAA says is legal. Log that. When you fill out applications and submit resumes, adjust from there because XYZ Airlines has a different standard than ABC Airlines.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 01:34 PM
You better make sure you’re operating in compliance with InFO 15012, specifically the NOTE in #4. I’ve been cleared for an ILS and seen the runway from 10 miles out. Just sayin’...

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2015/InFO15012.pdf

USMCFLYR is right. The standard is what the FAA says is legal. Log that. When you fill out applications and submit resumes, adjust from there because XYZ Airlines has a different standard than ABC Airlines.

If you're cleared for an ILS approach you must comply with the restrictions whether you have the field in sight or not. Think TEB or BUR.

There's a difference between instrument flight rules (IFR) and instrument meteorological conditions. (IMC) A SID or a STAR is in IFR procedure whether you're IMC or VMC. You don't get to disregard the mandatory restrictions just because you're in visual conditions. Same with in ILS. You comply with your clearance.

If you want to call "field in sight" and then receive a clearance for a visual approach then that's your prerogative. If you wish to do as you please just because you have the field in sight after being cleared for the ILS go for it. Let me know how that works out for you. Just get ready to write down a phone number.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 01:39 PM
Just to add, an ILS in VMC won't count towards currency requirements. Must be "sole reference to instruments" ie. IMC. Its a mute point since most operators have recurrent sim every 6 months anyway, but an ILS approach is an IFR clearance that must be complied with whether IMC or not.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 01:44 PM
The standard is what the FAA says is legal. Log that. When you fill out applications and submit resumes, adjust from there because XYZ Airlines has a different standard than ABC Airlines.

Then when you get invited to the face to face interview you can explain why your logbook doesn't match the numbers on your app!

At least you'll get some valuable interview experience.

1212135
05-23-2019, 03:08 PM
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/1999/carpenter%20-%20(1999)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 03:34 PM
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/1999/carpenter%20-%20(1999)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Botox, spray tans and breast augmentation are also legal, but theyíre still fake.

Carry on.

1212135
05-23-2019, 03:37 PM
Botox, spray tans and breast augmentation are legal, but theyíre still fake.

Carry on.

So documents from FAA website are fake now?

USMCFLYR
05-23-2019, 03:46 PM
Then when you get invited to the face to face interview you can explain why your logbook doesn't match the numbers on your app!

At least you'll get some valuable interview experience.

Now Das - are you just trying to be obtuse or has someone hacked your account? This is not your usual self it seems. :confused:

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID!

Your logbook doesnít have to exactly match your resume/application.
You have to explain what part of your logbook SUPPORTS the numbers on your resume/application.

If an applicant is applying to a company that requires 1,000 hrs of PIC of record and his logbook supports that he actually has more than that then great! If his logbook shows 1,500 of PIC and some of that is either logged under a separate column (and legal under the regulations) or not and if questioned were to say Ďwell some of that is logged IAW sole manipulator regs but I didnít include it in the numbers you asked for...í then it should be a moot point. You didnít do anything illegal and you didnít falsify your resume/application IAW with prospective employerís hiring guidelines.

I could have logged MANY more X/C hours than I did during my mil time, but I only logged stuff more than 50 miles away AND with a landing (a combo of both set of rules) and is more conservative than either rule by itself.

deadstick35
05-23-2019, 04:00 PM
If you're cleared for an ILS approach you must comply with the restrictions whether you have the field in sight or not. Think TEB or BUR.

There's a difference between instrument flight rules (IFR) and instrument meteorological conditions. (IMC) A SID or a STAR is in IFR procedure whether you're IMC or VMC. You don't get to disregard the mandatory restrictions just because you're in visual conditions. Same with in ILS. You comply with your clearance.

If you want to call "field in sight" and then receive a clearance for a visual approach then that's your prerogative. If you wish to do as you please just because you have the field in sight after being cleared for the ILS go for it. Let me know how that works out for you. Just get ready to write down a phone number.


Lighten up, Francis.

I was commenting on your statement about always logging the approach if you fly it and are cleared for it. You are also saying your way is the only way to log time, even though different airlines have different requirements. Both are contrary to the standards set forth by the FAA.

FWIW Logbook Pro or other e-logs can help customize your data. Really though, if ABC airlines (mins are 1000 PIC per 1.1) looks at the 2000 hrs PIC hours a pilot enters into his/her online application/resumť, and they bring the pilot in for an interview, and the pilotís log reflects 3000 PIC hrs of Part 1.1 (2000) and 61.51 (1000), theyíre not going to give a darn because 1) the pilot meets the requirements, and 2) wasnít fudging the times to meet the mins.

This would be a different conversation in the 1.1 and 61.51 numbers were reversed. I agree that would make for some good interview experience.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 04:42 PM
Now Das - are you just trying to be obtuse or has someone hacked your account? This is not your usual self it seems. :confused:
.

I'm actually a very sarcastic cocky individual that tries to show some restraint while typing on the forum. I have some time on my hands today so I felt like having some fun.

When a company looks at individuals PIC time on their resume they think of the time that person has been the one ultimately responsible for the multi million dollar assets they have been handed the metaphorical keys to. The one that has the ultimate authority for the operation of the aircraft. The one that signs the AML etc. Not the guy sitting in the right seat watching him whilst logging pseudo PIC time, just because legally he can.
It's misleading and it will lead to a TBNT letter from any reputable airline.

If guys want to create a new column in logbook pro called "sole manipulator of the controls, legally logged as PIC in order to meet the upgrade requirements set forth by Argus and Gieco insurance etc." Then go for it.
Logging it as real, genuine, "I signed for the aircraft and I was the company designated Captain" PIC column is false advertising.
It's like the people who know are average at best when it comes to physical appearance but look like Brad and Angelina on their social media profile. That's legal too.

Legal or not, logging PIC time when you're not really the Captain is B.S.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 05:12 PM
I dont get that. You worked or did work for a company that hires and is currently hiring 1500 hr SIC off the street. With a promise of 1 year Captain Upgrade pending you pass a command assessment. You know as well as I do as others on this forum not 1 of there hours was PIC by your standards But they get the upgrade. And you know as well as anyone else Argus/Gieco set a PIC standard of time. So help me understand how this is happening?

Because its total time and time in type. Most of my time is from the 121 world and that's where I cut my teeth. I upgraded with zero turbine PIC time, then moved to a larger airplane that I'd never even flown before as a Captain. Not a single hour logged in that aircraft as either SIC, fake PIC or real PIC. Just a type ride in the sim then a couple of weeks of IOE.

Granted the part 135 world allows a little more flex when it comes to interpreting the rules, but anyone who plans on sitting in front of a major part 121 air carrier in the future should keep their logbook black and white (or green if its that brand.) No gray areas. No Pseudo PIC.

1212135
05-23-2019, 05:21 PM
Because its total time and time in type. Most of my time is from the 121 world and that's where I cut my teeth. I upgraded with zero turbine PIC time, then moved to a larger airplane that I'd never even flown before as a Captain. Not a single hour logged in that aircraft as either SIC, fake PIC or real PIC. Just a type ride in the sim then a couple of weeks of IOE.

Granted the part 135 world allows a little more flex when it comes to interpreting the rules, but anyone who plans on sitting in front of a major part 121 air carrier in the future should keep their logbook black and white (or green if its that brand.) No gray areas. No Pseudo PIC.
Ok thank you. 3 pages ago saying yeah 135 world is more flexible and will allow some time a mainline carrier would not accept is legal in the 135 world. He asked about 1 specific company. You could have mention just to be clear before you leave that 135 job you better make sure your PIC time is solid. I would never have disputed with anyone a mainline carrier would not accept this time. But some 135 carriers would if he was looking for Provisional Captain if thatís what he was looking for. In fact rereading my original post I did say that. But it wasnít you calling me a liar at first either in regards to a particular question about one company. so Iím sorry if I have attacked you in anyway. And NO as sad as it makes me look I have no intentions of going to mainline (personnal and family decision) and if I did I would have worked for Peimont and taken the flow thru. Commuting takes the life out of you.

USMCFLYR
05-23-2019, 05:41 PM
Sorry Das - you are off the mark with “fake PIC” or “Pseudo PIC”.
Unfortunately it is clear that you are not in this thread for any useful reason other than to pander your off-kilter version of how things should be logged.

For others actually reading this thread for real information (if there is anyone), then take the advice offered in many posts about how to portray yourself in the interview and how to follow their application rules, but also understand the FARs and not someone’s interpretation of them.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 06:11 PM
Sorry Das - you are off the mark with “fake PIC” or “Pseudo PIC”.
Unfortunately it is clear that you are not in this thread for any useful reason other than to pander your off-kilter version of how things should be logged.

For others actually reading this thread for real information (if there is anyone), then take the advice offered in many posts about how to portray yourself in the interview and how to follow their application rules, but also understand the FARs and not someone’s interpretation of them.

Nonsense! You should know better than to tell an SIC to log PIC time when they are not assigned as the Captain by the certificate holder, not the one sitting in the left seat, signing for the aircraft, making entries in the aircraft log and, not the one ultimately responsible for the safe and efficient operation in the eyes of the FAA.

Re-writing your logbook would be a long and tedious but necessary process after a 121 interviewer taught you a tough but valuable lesson. The Captain is the PIC, the F.O. is the SIC. Don't be padding your logbook with wannabe PIC time.

MaxMar
05-23-2019, 06:18 PM
Nonsense! You should know better than to tell an SIC to log PIC time when they are not assigned as the Captain by the certificate holder, not the one sitting in the left seat, signing for the aircraft, making entries in the aircraft log and, not the one ultimately responsible for the safe and efficient operation in the eyes of the FAA.

Re-writing your logbook would be a long and tedious but necessary process after a 121 interviewer taught you a tough but valuable lesson. The Captain is the PIC, the F.O. is the SIC. Don't be padding your logbook with wannabe PIC time.

What happens when only one person can log the time eg single pilot airplanes eg 135 Pilatus operations? SIC is required for 135 IFR legs but what if heís flying the 91 repo? Under 91 only one pilot is required, and the legal PIC is not flying. Are you gonna tell the assigned PIC to log illegal time simply because the certificate holder designated him PIC when someone else is flying? How will the majors feel about that? Itís Captain commander time, true, the release will state as much, but itís not legal loggable time.

1212135
05-23-2019, 06:32 PM
Nonsense! You should know better than to tell an SIC to log PIC time when they are not assigned as the Captain by the certificate holder, not the one sitting in the left seat, signing for the aircraft, making entries in the aircraft log and, not the one ultimately responsible for the safe and efficient operation in the eyes of the FAA.

Re-writing your logbook would be a long and tedious but necessary process after a 121 interviewer taught you a tough but valuable lesson. The Captain is the PIC, the F.O. is the SIC. Don't be padding your logbook with wannabe PIC time.

1. Apparently we need to clear the air here. Even Iím lost? A guy asked about coming to GAMA. Not Mainline! If heís on a GAMA thread figuring out Delta interview policy. His log book is the least of his issue why heís not getting hired. But a weird fake guess tells me he was interested in GAMA stance on time to work for GAMA as a provisional Captain. Youíve finally clearly agree that part 135 is flexible on times.

2. Now Section 2-If Anyone is on this Gama thread attempting to find out Mainline interviews policies and what hour requirements are I might take a strong look at where I went wrong looking for Mainline information on a part 135 GAMA forum. But so no one gets confused Mainline hiring minimums probably are not the same as Gama nor is there compensation package. That may account for the difference of interpretation of a already interpreted statement from the FAA. I would take five minutes to go to the mainline forum and ask a Mainline pilot what their hiring minimums are requiring. At that point a recruiter would tell them you need to have 1000 hours (or more or less ) of PIC time. And at that point the applicant must decide what he/she Wants to send them. Iíd hope after working as a Captain anywhere they would make a competent decision on what they feel is right. If you worked at GAMA for 1years as per the contract you would be looking at 400-500 of Left/Dispatch PIC time. That would get original poster to Das Auto minimums to allow them to work at mainline.( last sentence was joke)

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 06:44 PM
1. Apparently we need to clear the air here. Even I’m lost? A guy asked about coming to GAMA. Not Mainline! If he’s on a GAMA thread figuring out Delta interview policy. His log book is the least of his issue why he’s not getting hired. But a weird fake guess tells me he was interested in GAMA stance on time to work for GAMA as a provisional Captain. You’ve finally clearly agree that part 135 is flexible on times.

2. Now Section 2-If Anyone is on this Gama thread attempting to find out Mainline interviews policies and hour requirements are I might take a strong look at where I went wrong looking for Mainline information on a part 135 GAMA forum. But so no one gets confused Mainline hiring minimums probably are not the same as Gama nor is there compensation package ,and I would take five minutes to go to the mainline forum and ask a Mainline pilot what their hiring minimums are requiring.

How about this.

There is a provision in the regulations which allows a pilot who is type rated in the aircraft and is the sole manipulator of the controls to log PIC time. The intent of this provision is to allow said pilot to escape the catch 22 predicament of not having the PIC time required to upgrade and can't build any PIC time because he's F.O.

Its advisable to log this time separately form PIC (Captain) time in the logbook as this practice is not common in the 121 world. (Should flying for a part 121 air carrier one day be your ultimate goal.)

1212135
05-23-2019, 06:48 PM
How about this.

There is a provision in the regulations which allows a pilot who is type rated in the aircraft and is the sole manipulator of the controls to log PIC time. The intent of this provision is to allow said pilot to escape the catch 22 predicament of not having the PIC time required to upgrade and can't build any PIC time because he's F.O.

Its advisable to log this time separately form PIC (Captain) time in the logbook as this practice is not common in the 121 world.

Agreed! Sorry about the remark above.

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 07:02 PM
Agreed! Sorry about the remark above.

No worries. I guess both sides learn something when the books are dusted off and opened up.

dera
05-23-2019, 10:17 PM
I like the EMAW idea of having a separate column.
The PIC signs for the aircraft, has operational control, is the in flight security coordinator, is the person legally in charge of the aircraft, and is the person who has been designated to act as PIC by the air carrier.



PIC has operational control?
You want to lock that answer?

Das Auto
05-23-2019, 10:29 PM
PIC has operational control?
You want to lock that answer?

Absolutely. The director of operations, a designee of the D.O. and the pilot in command has operational control. i.e. the authority to initiate, conduct, and / or terminate a flight.

Anything else?

USMCFLYR
05-24-2019, 04:29 AM
Absolutely. The director of operations, a designee of the D.O. and the pilot in command has operational control. i.e. the authority to initiate, conduct, and / or terminate a flight.

Anything else?
Not sure how your operation works - but in mine - the PIC doesn't have Operational Control. Doesn't mean I can't exert PIC discretion to terminate a flight for a variety of reasons - but using your example above - I can not self-release myself (in an aviation sense!) That dispatch comes from the part of my organization who in my Operations Manual actually states that these few people/designees have 'operational control'. In the end I, as a PIC, can deny a release - as can the Dispatcher even if I think the flight can be made (think of this as 2 to dispatch, 1 to cancel).

At least in my organization, the PIC has certain responsibilities but those don't fall under the actual definition of 'operational control'. In my particular FOM, PIC is not mentioned in any part of the FOM dealing with operational control except in one sentence that eludes to what I said above. No where in OpsSpec A008 which lays out operational control is the PIC mentioned.

IMO, you are confusing PIC responsibilities with actual operational control.

Firefly727
05-24-2019, 05:51 AM
I'm relatively new here, and this is a great discussion about PIC time. Understanding the differences of sole manipulator vs aircraft commander, how do most companies (135 / charter, not necessarily 121) view time spent as a CFI? I spent about 4 years in the 121 world as FE and FO, never CAPT (about 20 years ago). I have since been flying as CFI on the side while being a career firefighter to support my family. I'm looking to get back into flying full time soon and would appreciate all of your thoughts on this. TIA for your input.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 05:55 AM
Not sure how your operation works

IMO, you are confusing PIC responsibilities with actual operational control.

No I’m not.

Our manuals specifically list the PIC as having operational control and we don't have a dispatch, we have flight followers who have been blessed with operational control by the D.O. The question is asked on every 135.293 oral, and as this is a Gama / Wheels Up thread I am specifically referring to our operation.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 06:03 AM
I'm relatively new here, and this is a great discussion about PIC time. Understanding the differences of sole manipulator vs aircraft commander, how do most companies (135 / charter, not necessarily 121) view time spent as a CFI? I spent about 4 years in the 121 world as FE and FO, never CAPT (about 20 years ago). I have since been flying as CFI on the side while being a career firefighter to support my family. I'm looking to get back into flying full time soon and would appreciate all of your thoughts on this. TIA for your input.

CFI time is a whole different animal. per FAR 61.51 you may log the time as PIC because you are acting as a certified flight instructor.

Let me ask you this though. During your time as an F.O. or F.E. at your 121 gig, did you ever log that time as PIC?

Thought not.

Firefly727
05-24-2019, 06:06 AM
Never did. Just south of 1500 FE and a little more than 300 SIC. I'm not one to pad my log book with time not actually flown. Any questions about PIC time and I'll be very clear that the majority of it is as a CFI, only about 500-600 actual sole manipulator.

Packrat
05-24-2019, 08:14 AM
You might trick their application screening criteria, but I promise you the interview won't go well when you start in with "well technically I logged it PIC because..."

Log what you want. It's your butt out there. Be smart.

Exactly. And, BTW, assuming you made it to the interview and got rejected, forget about reapplying when you have the real PIC time. We have a record of your interview and the fact that you were rejected for lying to us. You get no second chances.

The Majors have your SSN on file. If you were rejected and your SSN pops up on a subsequent application its auto deleted.

Caveat Emptor.

1212135
05-24-2019, 08:17 AM
CFI time is a whole different animal. per FAR 61.51 you may log the time as PIC because you are acting as a certified flight instructor.

Let me ask you this though. During your time as an F.O. or F.E. at your 121 gig, did you ever log that time as PIC?

Thought not.
This wonít end will it? I gave you the FAA statement. Because you believe something doesnít make it the law of the land. You sound like a dam leftist liberal. Itís not your way so you run around screaming ď iMorally itís wrongĒ. You call the FAA.gov website fake. Are you even a real pilot or AOC?? I thought it was left as a 135 interpretation for ABC 135 carriers for insurability not mainline. Your ignorance of rules even when present black and white evidence you still canít let it go.

1212135
05-24-2019, 08:25 AM
Exactly. And, BTW, assuming you made it to the interview and got rejected, forget about reapplying when you have the real PIC time. We have a record of your interview and the fact that you were rejected for lying to us. You get no second chances.

The Majors have your SSN on file. If you were rejected and your SSN pops up on a subsequent application its auto deleted.

Caveat Emptor.
Hey join there regional affiliate -problem fixed!!
Some Mainline carriers sold there golden ticket to mainline out in exchange for cheap regional labor.

I know one guy that blew his AA interview and thanks to PSA little flow thru. He works at AA. So YOU ARE WRONG!

Incase you missed it.. YOU ARE WRONG!

Packrat
05-24-2019, 08:30 AM
Do flow through pilots go through the full AA HR process?

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 08:30 AM
This won’t end will it? I gave you the FAA statement. Because you believe something doesn’t make it the law of the land. You sound like a dam leftist liberal. It’s not your way so you run around screaming “ iMorally it’s wrong”. You call the FAA.gov website fake. Are you even a real pilot or AOC?? I thought it was left as a 135 interpretation for ABC 135 carriers for insurability not mainline. Your ignorance of rules even when present black and white evidence you still can’t let it go.

Screaming? Leftist liberal? What a ridiculous statement. Calm down. The FAA statement is not "fake" either. The letter you gave referenced a 121 carrier where the F.O. was flying with a company check airman. Completely irrelevant.

Don't get all butt hurt with me because you've been filling out your logbook wrong all these years, and yes I am a real pilot. Check Airman in fact. I hope to conduct your next 293 or 299 ride.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 08:34 AM
Hey join there regional affiliate -problem fixed!!
Some Mainline carriers sold there golden ticket to mainline out in exchange for cheap regional labor.

I know one guy that blew his AA interview and thanks to PSA little flow thru. He works at AA. So YOU ARE WRONG!

Incase you missed it.. YOU ARE WRONG!

Did he blow his interview for falsifying his log book?

Thought not.

Get some anger management counseling. Its becoming obvious why you're career didn't go further than flying for a regional airline, then a King Air.

1212135
05-24-2019, 08:38 AM
Screaming? Leftist liberal? What a ridiculous statement. Calm down. The FAA statement is not "fake" either. The letter you gave referenced a 121 carrier where the F.O. was flying with a company check airman. Completely irrelevant.

Don't get all butt hurt with me because you've been filling out your logbook wrong all these years, and yes I am a real pilot. Check Airman in fact. I hope to conduct your next 293 or 299 ride.

So as a check airman you have a letter stating if they are type rated they can log PIC if sole manipulator of controls written by FAA lawyers. And you disregard it and then threaten pilots using your status to believe you or suffer a checkride failure is a pretty bold statement on a public forum to suggest.

Packrat
05-24-2019, 08:38 AM
Survey Say: Your full of S$&T

Actually, the survey says you can't read for comprehension. Obviously a product of American public education. What I said (pay attention now) was that if you got caught lying on a MAJOR airline interview, you weren't going to get called for a second interview at that airline.

Since flow through pilots don't go through the same HR hiring process its not impossible they could slip through.

Do yourself a favor. Hit the library and check out some Bill Peet books.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 08:49 AM
So as a check airman you have a letter stating if they are type rated they can log PIC if sole manipulator of controls written by FAA lawyers. And you disregard it and then threaten pilots using your status to believe you or suffer a checkride failure is a pretty bold statement on a public forum to suggest.

I threatened no such thing and I have not seen the "letter" you are talking about in any of our company manuals.

Please feel free to forward this Gama specific document, or failing that, have our POI publish said document so we can circulate it amongst the training department.

I won't hold my breath.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 09:00 AM
This is the worst advise. Ever. Pilot in Command means the guy in COMMAND. That would be the Captain or Aircraft Commander. Now, if you want to keep track of your 'sole manipulator' time for ARGUS then have at it. Just know that if you ever try to go to anything larger than a King Air for WU you'll be laughed out of the interview with your First Officer 'PIC' time.

Exactly right. Log it separately.

tohellandback
05-24-2019, 03:21 PM
Can anyone confirm if the interview sim evaluation is conducted in a B1900?

Also, is Gama hiring because of the expansion of the business, or because of pilots leaving? Thanks.

Das Auto
05-24-2019, 04:07 PM
Can anyone confirm if the interview sim evaluation is conducted in a B1900?

Also, is Gama hiring because of the expansion of the business, or because of pilots leaving? Thanks.

They're hiring for both reasons. More aircraft coming online, King Air guys moving over the to XL & the Citation ten, and guys moving on to bigger and better things in general.

There is no sim evaluation anymore. They used to do them in some variation of the King Air but not anymore.

symbian simian
05-25-2019, 10:57 AM
Just for reference:
Did my flight training for both FAA and JAA. When I started logging time in the EU in 2000, I was able to log my first 500hrs SIC, and the first 500hrs SIC with MTOGW over 20K Kgs, and 50% of other SIC time as PIC time towards my required 1500hrs PIC for the purpose of unfreezing my ATPL. I also had to log the Out/In times and the name of the PIC for every leg. Needless to say I rewrote all my logbooks, except the one for my primary training when I came over to the states, logging everything in the right seat until EU upgrade OE was finished as SIC.

mdiepenbroek
05-26-2019, 01:35 PM
Part135 general opsec (EOD, Alternate requirements, takeoff minimum etc. nothing to brain busting).. FaceTime:Skype interview only. Chief Pilot makes determination on DEC slots. Itís more or less do you meet insurance minimum for DEC.

Any systems questions on previous aircraft flown?