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wyomingpilot1
11-29-2018, 06:12 PM
Hi everybody

I have an opportunity to fly a 1966 Cessna 150E from a friend to get my ppl. Would like to train for IFR and commercial license right after and start getting paid to fly. I've been reading a lot of posts on here about the merits of part 61 and part 141 schools so have a little bit of background knowledge but still trying to make sense of it. I plan to hire a CFI and train me for my ppl in this plane (I am buying the plane) under part 61 regs because it is a huge costs savings flying this little plane compared to renting (excl. possible mechanical issues) from the local part 141 school. I have a bachelors degree in natural resources and cartography so an aviation degree would be more than I need, so their degree program thru the local CC doesnt interest me really.

If I want to get IFR and commercial certifications, I will oviously need to fly something more than this old C150E. How, if at all, can I continue to use this C150E to build hours towards 200/250 if I want to go to the part 141 school to get my IFR and commercial certifications? Should I plan on selling this plane after I get my PPL, or will keeping this plane while train part 141 still be benefical. If I fly this plane while Im in the part 141 school will the hours count as full hours? Will I need 250 hours to get a job or 200 because I flew this plane and want it to count towards my hours?

Making a plan for a career in aviation, Reading a lot of posts on this forum it seems like it could be beneficial to complete flight training sooner rather than later with the hiring boom. So trying to figure out if it would be worth biting the bullet of the 141 schools programs because of the lower hour requirement for commercial license and how this old plane might help me keep training costs down.


tnalkire
11-29-2018, 07:05 PM
There are several ways to look at this. My first thought since you are just starting out is to apply the 3F rule, meaning it's going to be cheaper for you to rent. If something breaks on the rental, it is the schools responsibility to fix it. Worst case you lose a few days of training. If your plane breaks, your down until you can fix it

With that being said. If your heart is absolutely set on buying the plane use it, and do everything Part 61. About the only advantage of doing instrument 141 is it eliminates 5 hours of Sim Instrument and 50 hours of cross-country time, but it is 35 hours dual in a rented aircraft. By doing it part 61, your min time with a CFI is 15 hours. You build the other 25 with a safety pilot. Remember these are mins. You the quality of your CFI and you ability to grasp the material may be a little different. Then go and fly the wings off your plane until you get to about 230-240 hours total time, get your required 10 hours in a Complex/TAA aircraft and go take a check ride. You will be learning the commercial maneuvers in that 10-20 hours. Again this may vary, but you are only required 10 hours.

There are advantages to both. Go talk to some people in your area and see what training route they took, what they liked and didn't like. It may be applicable to you. Then make the decision that best fits your needs.

wyomingpilot1
11-29-2018, 08:11 PM
Thanks for replying. I get the impression reading some other threads that pilots on this forum think its a foolhardy idea to buy a plane to save money on a rental at flight school and im trying to understand why. The flight school quote is around 9k for a PPl. I can buy my buddys plane for 15k, annual inspection was done a couple months ago, 1200hrs remain until overhaul. If I buy this plane for 15k, I should be able to fly it for 40 hours and sell it again when im done.

100 bucks a month to hangar this plane,
18 bucks an hour to fly it
40$ an hour for freelance CFI
so 15hrs flight instructer time x 40$ hr = 600$
say 50hrs flight time at 18/hr = 900$
FAA exam fees = 565$
study materials and other required gear = 1000$
total cost of ppl with plane i own = 3000$

then when im done the plane has 50 more hours on it and is still several months away from requiring an annual inspection and at least a 1000hrs away from a rebuild. Provided it doesnt blow up and i dont damage it, i sell it again a month later for 15,000.

is this a foolhardy plan?


dera
11-29-2018, 08:45 PM
Thanks for replying. I get the impression reading some other threads that pilots on this forum think its a foolhardy idea to buy a plane to save money on a rental at flight school and im trying to understand why. The flight school quote is around 9k for a PPl. I can buy my buddys plane for 15k, annual inspection was done a couple months ago, 1200hrs remain until overhaul. If I buy this plane for 15k, I should be able to fly it for 40 hours and sell it again when im done.

100 bucks a month to hangar this plane,
18 bucks an hour to fly it
40$ an hour for freelance CFI
so 15hrs flight instructer time x 40$ hr = 600$
say 50hrs flight time at 18/hr = 900$
FAA exam fees = 565$
study materials and other required gear = 1000$
total cost of ppl with plane i own = 3000$

then when im done the plane has 50 more hours on it and is still several months away from requiring an annual inspection and at least a 1000hrs away from a rebuild. Provided it doesnt blow up and i dont damage it, i sell it again a month later for 15,000.

is this a foolhardy plan?

Insurance is around $1000/year for a student pilot with low hull value, 50hr oil change is around $100 if you do it yourself, random fixes/repair for things that break, maybe 10-15/hr.

My 150, over 400 hours, was $54/hr to run, all in. I paid just over $3/g for gas. That included a few unlucky AOG events out of base, but they do happen so be prepared for them.
I saved a ton of money compared to renting. I got my instrument in it too, it was /G so that helped.

JohnBurke
11-29-2018, 10:00 PM
I get the impression reading some other threads that pilots on this forum think its a foolhardy idea to buy a plane to save money on a rental at flight school and im trying to understand why.

That really depends on the airplane. Your numbers are very optimistic, and packed with assumptions, chiefly that all will go well with the aircraft and that you'll finish in minimum time, to say nothing of the assumption that the annual means the airplane is in good shape or trouble free. I've dealt with a lot of first time buyers as both mechanic and pilot and instructor, and it's rare that the buyer isn't surprised, especially by their first annual.

You indicated that the annual has been completed less than two months before. By whom? To what degree? There are pencil whipped annuals, often done on the cheap, and it's very common for a lot to be missed. There are very thorough annuals. Those usually cost. The degree to which the airplane has been cared for, the manner in which it's operated and stored, the frequency with which it's flown, and other factors all combine to vastly change the equation. Make no assumptions.

It's very common to find that an first annual inspection for a new owner runs 5,000 or more. Perhaps it's an AD that needs doing, perhaps a cylinder compression that's low and needs replaced. Crazed windscreen. Pitted engine mount. Corrosion. Cracks. Leaking fuel cells and bladders. All manner of possibilities. As the new owner, you buy the condition of the airplane and all the maintenance that's been done to it, and you become legally responsible for it. Improper repair? You own it. And the cost to bring it into compliance. Or the greater penalty when it fails in flight.

Your buddy says it just came out of annual. That doesn't mean a lot. It's common for a pre-buy inspection on a fresh annual to turn up all kinds of discrepancies, and it's common for them to be expensive. Keep this in mind, and ensure you get a very though pre-buy inspection by a reputable mechanic, and not the mechanic who did the annual inspection.

I can buy my buddys plane for 15k, annual inspection was done a couple months ago, 1200hrs remain until overhaul.

You think 1,200 remain until overhaul. You have no way to know.

You think you know what an overhaul is. Do you? It's likely not what you think.

Has the engine been overhauled before? If so, and your buddy believes that he has X number of hours until the next overhaul, think again. TBO, or "time before overhaul" is really only valid on the first-run factory engine; after that there are too many variables to consider TBO remotely reliable, and you shouldn't. I've seen a LOT of engines fail not long after an "overhaul," and there are many shades of "overhaul." Has it had a "top" overhaul, involving the cylinders only, or was the engine thoroughly overhauled previously? If you're buying an airplane for 15,000, you're not buying cream of the crop or close to new.

If it had a top overhaul (often referred to as "STOH," or "since top overhaul"), were all the cylinders replaced, or just one or two? If just one was replaced, it's not uncommon to see the opposite side cylinder fail not long after, or a case failure, especially in cases where case through bolts may have been removed. If a top overhaul was done, to what degree? What kinds of parts? Original manufacturer, or aftermarket, and who did the work? It makes a big, big difference. Think life and death difference.

"Overhaul" means nothing more than the part was inspected and found to be within tolerance. An engine may have an "overhaul" and retain most of the same parts, and often does. That it's overhauled simply means that it wasn't quite out of tolerance to reject at the time. How about now?

How often has that engine been run, and the oil changed, and has it been on a spectrometric oil analysis program? An engine that's not run very often is frequently in trouble, often has corrosion at bearing journals and on the cam-shaft and other places. Aircraft engines need to run regularly. Who ran it and how did they do it? Power to idle descents, even in the pattern, on a regular basis? Look out. Rapid power changes, enough to detune a crank shaft? Look out. When were the magnetos last serviced or replaced or overhauled? If you're very fortunate, they'll be good for 600 hours, not the 1200 hours for the engine. What about the other components?

How experienced an owner, mechanic, and/or pilot is your buddy? Is he an airline pilot, or former military with no general aviation experience or maintenance experience? Watch out. He's not legally required to do service bulletins, but they should be done. Are they? There's cost attached...for doing them, and for failing to do them. How about airworthiness directives? Between those and some supplemental inspection documents that Cessna whipped up about ten years ago, the cost for the maintenance can very quickly exceed the value of the aircraft. Ever had a wingtip strike? Propeller strike? Tail strike? What condition are the instruments and avionics? Big bucks there.

If I buy this plane for 15k, I should be able to fly it for 40 hours and sell it again when im done.


I'd be really cautious about any aircraft that costs just fifteen grand. Some light experimentals, maybe. If it's a Cessna 140 in half-way decent shape, maybe. Possibly. Even a Cessna 150 with high airframe time...ok, it could be.

You really think you'll get done in 40 hours, when the national average is 60-80 hours? Again, don't assume you'll get by with the minimum anything.


100 bucks a month to hangar this plane,
18 bucks an hour to fly it
40$ an hour for freelance CFI
so 15hrs flight instructer time x 40$ hr = 600$
say 50hrs flight time at 18/hr = 900$
FAA exam fees = 565$
study materials and other required gear = 1000$
total cost of ppl with plane i own = 3000$


If you can find a hangar for a hundred a month, congratulations.

Eighteen bucks an hour to fly? That's optimistic.

Figure setting aside at least, at a minimum, the cost of fuel for every hour you fly, in a maintenance fund. It won't be enough, but start there. If you burn six gallons an hour and the fuel is four bucks a gallon, set aside twenty five an hour on top of everything else, just for maintenance.

I didn't see your insurance policy listed there, but it won't be cheap as a student pilot. Your instructor will probably want a policy that covers him, too (I would), which will add to the cost.

Forty bucks an hour for a freelance CFI, maybe...but a good one? Experienced? Not just an experienced pilot, but an experienced instructor? Remember that most instructors out there, the kids working in the flight schools, have almost no flight experience themselves, and have usually never worked in aviation. They were students themselves just a little while ago.

You think you'll only need 15 hours of instruction? Maybe.

Don't plan for the minimum of anything, whether it's hours flown, maintenance needed, runway required, or altitude to clear a ridge.

Your numbers might conceivably happen the way you think, but one bad cylinder and you're into it for more costs in maintenance than you have figured total costs. Use up brakes? Flat spot tires? Those add up quickly. Birdstrike and need a repair? You're already spending more on that than the entire cost of your flight training.

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/us/2011/09/18/scene-deadly-reno-air-race-crash-shows-planes-missile-like-impact/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-1.img.jpg/876/493/1448142877803.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

That picture doesn't look like it, but it's a P-51 at the Reno Air Races in 2011. It's just crashed into a grandstand full of people, killing many, injuring many. The airplane pitched hard, pulled enough G forces to render the pilot unconscious. He was unable to control the airplane as it rolled half way through a loop and crashed on the downline into the crowd.

The cause? A single fiberlock nut on a trim tab. Just one little bad nut. One tiny, seemingly inconsequential little bit of hardware, the minimum standard for which is that it must have just enough resistance to not thread onto the bolt by hand. Doing just the bare minimum didn't work, however...that's the result.


then when im done the plane has 50 more hours on it and is still several months away from requiring an annual inspection and at least a 1000hrs away from a rebuild. Provided it doesnt blow up and i dont damage it, i sell it again a month later for 15,000.

is this a foolhardy plan?

Is it foolhardy? No, not necessarily, but not well informed. It's possible to buy an airplane and get your certification done and then get out of the airplane and actually save something...but it usually doesn't pan out that way.

From an instructor point of view, I'd take a very keen interest in the maintenance the airplane has received, and is receiving. I'd be doing a thorough review of the aircraft records personally, and a very close examination of the airplane, to say nothing of the insurance policy you'd be buying to cover my services.

Don't forget your preventative maintenance, from oil changes to the air filter to routine work that the aircraft may need. That 150 may have a high time airframe, with a lot of things lurking from hundreds of students who slammed it into the ground and abused it; again, take nothing for granted.

You use the term "rebuild," but that's very different than "overhaul." Neither mean the same thing (and the meanings matter a LOT). Again, don't assume you have a thousand hours until the next overhaul. It may end up being tomorrow. I'm not barking at shadows and crying doom; speaking from decades of experience, including a lot of years working on Cessna 150's, and most other general aviation aircraft. Don't assume you've got that amount of time, even if it's a brand new engine (and for 15,000, it's not: that engine new is worth more than what you're proposing to pay for the airplane...and replacing it will cost you more than the airplane; something to think about).

Hi everybody
I have a bachelors degree in natural resources and cartography so an aviation degree would be more than I need, so their degree program thru the local CC doesnt interest me really.


A degree in aviation would be utterly worthless for you. Don't waste your time.


If I want to get IFR and commercial certifications, I will oviously need to fly something more than this old C150E.

If you plan to build a career in aviation, it won't be a matter of whether you want an instrument rating and commercial certification. You'll need it.

It's possible to do what you're considering, though you may be underestimating the cost considerably. Just make sure you do it with both eyes open with a healthy margin for the costs you don't yet anticipate. They'll come.

TiredSoul
11-30-2018, 01:08 AM
Ok here we go.
Letís see what I can add.
A Part 141 school is only authorized to train on aircraft that are approved on their certificate.
So unless they lease the airplane from you and have it added to their certificate that is a no.

Expect to pay $70-$80/hr for instruction.
Part time or self employed instructors have expenses too.
Tax deductions, CFI insurance and so on. I wouldnít want to fly with a CFI that is not insured. Either through the school or self insured.

An annual is $1500 if they donít find anything, thatís 20 hrs of taking the plane apart and putting it back together again.
If you intend to fly 300 hrs a year you need to put $5/hr towards the annual and at least $5/hr towards unforeseen maintenance.
Letís assume 1000hrs to go to new engine. Ballpark $15k including installation and prop.
So add $15/hr to your engine fund.
Average gas at $20/hr.
Hangar $2000/yr so $6.5/hr.

Youíre at $52.50/hr without insurance and without instruction.
You are looking at $120/hr to train in your own airplane.

I wouldnít do an IR in a C150.
It canít get out of its own way and youíve got no equipment.
Save now pay later.
Yes you can find an instructor for $40.
You get what you pay for.

Pick one:

https://fastgood.cheap

dera
11-30-2018, 03:04 AM
Expect to pay $70-$80/hr for instruction.
Part time or self employed instructors have expenses too.
Tax deductions, CFI insurance and so on. I wouldnít want to fly with a CFI that is not insured. Either through the school or self insured.

An annual is $1500 if they donít find anything, thatís 20 hrs of taking the plane apart and putting it back together again.
If you intend to fly 300 hrs a year you need to put $5/hr towards the annual and at least $5/hr towards unforeseen maintenance.
Letís assume 1000hrs to go to new engine. Ballpark $15k including installation and prop.
So add $15/hr to your engine fund.
Average gas at $20/hr.
Hangar $2000/yr so $6.5/hr.

Youíre at $52.50/hr without insurance and without instruction.
You are looking at $120/hr to train in your own airplane.



No need to pay 70-80/hr for instruction. That's way too high. You can, but I don't see any reason why.
150 base annual is not $1500.
You don't need an engine fund if you only intend to fly 300 hours.
He said he has a hangar for 100/mo. That's not 2000/yr.

You clearly haven't owned a 150, have you?

wyomingpilot1
11-30-2018, 07:49 AM
That really depends on the airplane. Your numbers are very optimistic, and packed with assumptions, chiefly that all will go well with the aircraft and that you'll finish in minimum time, to say nothing of the assumption that the annual means the airplane is in good shape or trouble free. I've dealt with a lot of first time buyers as both mechanic and pilot and instructor, and it's rare that the buyer isn't surprised, especially by their first annual.

You indicated that the annual has been completed less than two months before. By whom? To what degree? There are pencil whipped annuals, often done on the cheap, and it's very common for a lot to be missed. There are very thorough annuals. Those usually cost. The degree to which the airplane has been cared for, the manner in which it's operated and stored, the frequency with which it's flown, and other factors all combine to vastly change the equation. Make no assumptions.

It's very common to find that an first annual inspection for a new owner runs 5,000 or more. Perhaps it's an AD that needs doing, perhaps a cylinder compression that's low and needs replaced. Crazed windscreen. Pitted engine mount. Corrosion. Cracks. Leaking fuel cells and bladders. All manner of possibilities. As the new owner, you buy the condition of the airplane and all the maintenance that's been done to it, and you become legally responsible for it. Improper repair? You own it. And the cost to bring it into compliance. Or the greater penalty when it fails in flight.

Your buddy says it just came out of annual. That doesn't mean a lot. It's common for a pre-buy inspection on a fresh annual to turn up all kinds of discrepancies, and it's common for them to be expensive. Keep this in mind, and ensure you get a very though pre-buy inspection by a reputable mechanic, and not the mechanic who did the annual inspection.



You think 1,200 remain until overhaul. You have no way to know.

You think you know what an overhaul is. Do you? It's likely not what you think.

Has the engine been overhauled before? If so, and your buddy believes that he has X number of hours until the next overhaul, think again. TBO, or "time before overhaul" is really only valid on the first-run factory engine; after that there are too many variables to consider TBO remotely reliable, and you shouldn't. I've seen a LOT of engines fail not long after an "overhaul," and there are many shades of "overhaul." Has it had a "top" overhaul, involving the cylinders only, or was the engine thoroughly overhauled previously? If you're buying an airplane for 15,000, you're not buying cream of the crop or close to new.

If it had a top overhaul (often referred to as "STOH," or "since top overhaul"), were all the cylinders replaced, or just one or two? If just one was replaced, it's not uncommon to see the opposite side cylinder fail not long after, or a case failure, especially in cases where case through bolts may have been removed. If a top overhaul was done, to what degree? What kinds of parts? Original manufacturer, or aftermarket, and who did the work? It makes a big, big difference. Think life and death difference.

"Overhaul" means nothing more than the part was inspected and found to be within tolerance. An engine may have an "overhaul" and retain most of the same parts, and often does. That it's overhauled simply means that it wasn't quite out of tolerance to reject at the time. How about now?

How often has that engine been run, and the oil changed, and has it been on a spectrometric oil analysis program? An engine that's not run very often is frequently in trouble, often has corrosion at bearing journals and on the cam-shaft and other places. Aircraft engines need to run regularly. Who ran it and how did they do it? Power to idle descents, even in the pattern, on a regular basis? Look out. Rapid power changes, enough to detune a crank shaft? Look out. When were the magnetos last serviced or replaced or overhauled? If you're very fortunate, they'll be good for 600 hours, not the 1200 hours for the engine. What about the other components?

How experienced an owner, mechanic, and/or pilot is your buddy? Is he an airline pilot, or former military with no general aviation experience or maintenance experience? Watch out. He's not legally required to do service bulletins, but they should be done. Are they? There's cost attached...for doing them, and for failing to do them. How about airworthiness directives? Between those and some supplemental inspection documents that Cessna whipped up about ten years ago, the cost for the maintenance can very quickly exceed the value of the aircraft. Ever had a wingtip strike? Propeller strike? Tail strike? What condition are the instruments and avionics? Big bucks there.



I'd be really cautious about any aircraft that costs just fifteen grand. Some light experimentals, maybe. If it's a Cessna 140 in half-way decent shape, maybe. Possibly. Even a Cessna 150 with high airframe time...ok, it could be.

You really think you'll get done in 40 hours, when the national average is 60-80 hours? Again, don't assume you'll get by with the minimum anything.



If you can find a hangar for a hundred a month, congratulations.

Eighteen bucks an hour to fly? That's optimistic.

Figure setting aside at least, at a minimum, the cost of fuel for every hour you fly, in a maintenance fund. It won't be enough, but start there. If you burn six gallons an hour and the fuel is four bucks a gallon, set aside twenty five an hour on top of everything else, just for maintenance.

I didn't see your insurance policy listed there, but it won't be cheap as a student pilot. Your instructor will probably want a policy that covers him, too (I would), which will add to the cost.

Forty bucks an hour for a freelance CFI, maybe...but a good one? Experienced? Not just an experienced pilot, but an experienced instructor? Remember that most instructors out there, the kids working in the flight schools, have almost no flight experience themselves, and have usually never worked in aviation. They were students themselves just a little while ago.

You think you'll only need 15 hours of instruction? Maybe.

Don't plan for the minimum of anything, whether it's hours flown, maintenance needed, runway required, or altitude to clear a ridge.

Your numbers might conceivably happen the way you think, but one bad cylinder and you're into it for more costs in maintenance than you have figured total costs. Use up brakes? Flat spot tires? Those add up quickly. Birdstrike and need a repair? You're already spending more on that than the entire cost of your flight training.

That picture doesn't look like it, but it's a P-51 at the Reno Air Races in 2011. It's just crashed into a grandstand full of people, killing many, injuring many. The airplane pitched hard, pulled enough G forces to render the pilot unconscious. He was unable to control the airplane as it rolled half way through a loop and crashed on the downline into the crowd.

The cause? A single fiberlock nut on a trim tab. Just one little bad nut. One tiny, seemingly inconsequential little bit of hardware, the minimum standard for which is that it must have just enough resistance to not thread onto the bolt by hand. Doing just the bare minimum didn't work, however...that's the result.



Is it foolhardy? No, not necessarily, but not well informed. It's possible to buy an airplane and get your certification done and then get out of the airplane and actually save something...but it usually doesn't pan out that way.

From an instructor point of view, I'd take a very keen interest in the maintenance the airplane has received, and is receiving. I'd be doing a thorough review of the aircraft records personally, and a very close examination of the airplane, to say nothing of the insurance policy you'd be buying to cover my services.

Don't forget your preventative maintenance, from oil changes to the air filter to routine work that the aircraft may need. That 150 may have a high time airframe, with a lot of things lurking from hundreds of students who slammed it into the ground and abused it; again, take nothing for granted.

You use the term "rebuild," but that's very different than "overhaul." Neither mean the same thing (and the meanings matter a LOT). Again, don't assume you have a thousand hours until the next overhaul. It may end up being tomorrow. I'm not barking at shadows and crying doom; speaking from decades of experience, including a lot of years working on Cessna 150's, and most other general aviation aircraft. Don't assume you've got that amount of time, even if it's a brand new engine (and for 15,000, it's not: that engine new is worth more than what you're proposing to pay for the airplane...and replacing it will cost you more than the airplane; something to think about).



A degree in aviation would be utterly worthless for you. Don't waste your time.



If you plan to build a career in aviation, it won't be a matter of whether you want an instrument rating and commercial certification. You'll need it.

It's possible to do what you're considering, though you may be underestimating the cost considerably. Just make sure you do it with both eyes open with a healthy margin for the costs you don't yet anticipate. They'll come.

Thanks JohnBurke, learned a lot from that. I am new into airplanes so definitely making some big assumptions trying to put it all together. A lot of my numbers are estimates that come from the two friends from whom i would buy the plane. They are not experienced pilots (one has 250 hours, the other trained for his ppl in the plane), but they have just finished owning this plane so they have some idea. Costs for things here in Wyoming are typically less than in other parts of the country. I guess what Im getting from you is that its a hell of a gamble to do this because of possible maintenance costs which could arise. So maybe I would be betting 15,000k or more to save 5,000$ at the flight school. I do not have deep pockets so that is kind of a big bet to make. I have a friend who may be interested in co owning the plane. The plane does have damage history on the tail and wings but retains its aerodynamic shape which is about the extent of my ability to judge its airworthiness.

I was not aware that I would need insurance and that makes sense that the CFI I find would want that. Can you buy insurance for just a few months?

I am not trying to be arrogant assuming minimum times, just optimistic. I'm hoping my degree in cartography and my experience operating other large equipment (excavators, snow cat groomers, etc) plus some good effort will translate into completing flight school efficiently. I make 30k a year as a forestry contractor so don't have a ton of wherewithal to stretch out flight school or do any training without the intent of turning it into paid work. I love to fly but when you make 30k a year you need another hobby like a moose needs a hat rack!

Yea just trying to make a plan here on a tight budget to become someone who can start taking part 91 work. The local school 152 rental rate is 89$ an hour. The other big costs on the PPL quote sheet are
40 hours flight instruction (55$ per hour)
15 hours ground instuction (55$ per hour).
Are those costs fixed? Do I need that many hours of instruction if I hit the books hard and do well in the airplane?

If I start these 141 programs and work towards their time requirements, how does me flying in planes that dont belong to the 141 school count towards my experience? Whether I own it or somebody else does? Am I suddenly required to complete time requirements under part 61 if I go fly a plane that doesnt belong to the flight school and want to log the time? Do the hours in the plane count at all?

thanks everyone

IDIOTPILOT
11-30-2018, 08:11 AM
Just to be realistic, there aren’t a ton of decent jobs you can find with a fresh commercial certificate. If you’re willing to relocate, there are jobs out there. But, many want to see 500 hours.

You can fly whatever you want and count it in your logbook. The hours you fly your 150 make no impact on the 141 curriculum. You have to pass each lesson no matter what else you do.

TiredSoul
11-30-2018, 10:13 PM
No need to pay 70-80/hr for instruction. That's way too high. You can, but I don't see any reason why.
150 base annual is not $1500.
You don't need an engine fund if you only intend to fly 300 hours.
He said he has a hangar for 100/mo. That's not 2000/yr.

You clearly haven't owned a 150, have you?

No but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
Oh..and Iíve been Chief Flight instructor 141...for 6 years.

For $40 you get the ones that canít....who teach.
Go ahead a buy a less then stellar airplane and shop around for less then stellar instruction and see how much that will cost you in the end.
And Iím being nice.
Donít skimp.

TiredSoul
11-30-2018, 11:06 PM
I wasnít that far off on the annual
http://www.dugosh.com/annual-aircraft-inspections

Look what these airplanes generally go for and ask yourself why this one is $15k
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=CESSNA&model_group=CESSNA+150+SERIES&s-type=aircraft

dera
11-30-2018, 11:30 PM
No but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
Oh..and Iíve been Chief Flight instructor 141...for 6 years.

For $40 you get the ones that canít....who teach.
Go ahead a buy a less then stellar airplane and shop around for less then stellar instruction and see how much that will cost you in the end.
And Iím being nice.
Donít skimp.

141 stuff has nothing to do with plane ownership. Completely different environment.

Do your research, join the type clubs, be active, and don't place any value on your time. That's a huge thing. You'll spend A LOT of your time, or you'll spend a lot of your money.

I'll give a few examples: I bought a mint 150M, during our first service we found out that a previous owner had used incorrect parts on the nosewheel assembly. The nut and ferrules weren't correct for the plane.

Cessna part prices are hilarious. The nut was around $200, and ferrules were $600, each.

I'm not kidding.

Cessna Part No. 0442143-1 Ferrule - General Inventory - Air Power, Inc. (http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/prodparts.asp?catid=1&subcat=108&mfgid=&prodid=374019)

It took a while, but I found all three parts for $25, as new.

So, a "service center" would've quoted this for around $1800. I got it fixed for $150, we overhauled the nosewheel at the same time.

I upgraded my Cessna ARC to a TKM MX300 for $100. I fixed my glideslope for $50 ($25 in parts for a new receiver, $25 for my mechanic to swap it). It took me probably 3-4 days to find the parts and figure out what was wrong. As an owner, you can't set a price on that.

But then, once, I was raped for $2000 for two items I didn't want nor need when I was AOG out of base. That's just how it is. The more you fly, the more hours you can divide those unexpected costs over.

For instruction - I paid $50/hr for someone with more type ratings and real world experience than I knew what to do with. Do your homework, there's plenty of useless numbnuts, but there are those older guys who just like to teach. I found one. Not easy to find. Ask around.

Find a _GOOD_ mechanic. Your mechanic will determine what your ownership experience will be like. I had an amazing one. I got lucky. Again - ask around.
My mechanic, I gave him a list of squawks, every little one, and told him to fix it all. You need to trust your mechanic like that. My zero-squawk maintenance cost me around $10 an hour. If I operated it like a 141 school, it would've been 3-4 times more.

dera
11-30-2018, 11:32 PM
I wasn’t that far off on the annual
Annual aircraft inspections | Dugosh Aviation Kerrville (http://www.dugosh.com/annual-aircraft-inspections)



"that far off". Almost 40% off is pretty damn far.

Most 150 annual prices are 600-800 for the good ones.
$15k 150 can be a great buy, or a total trainwreck.

Most good ones are $17-22k range. I sold mine for top of that and it was a late '76 /G with 300 hour engine and zero squawks.

15k is realistic for a flyable one.

PT6 Flyer
12-01-2018, 07:21 AM
Look what these airplanes generally go for and ask yourself why this one is $15k

We had a joke at my old flight school. If you want to buy a light twin, it will cost you $40,000. If you buy one for $20,000, guess what -- you will pay $20,000 to fix it up.

wyomingpilot1
12-01-2018, 06:41 PM
thanks everyone who responded.

Still researching here and trying to make a budget. Say, if I train for a PPL at the 141 school with their plane and under part 141 regs, is there a required minimum amount of hours of ground instruction in such programs? Basically asking if it is possible to self-study.

IDIOTPILOT
12-01-2018, 07:40 PM
In general, yes you’ll have to go through their approved curriculum to include ground training.

Most students still need to self study way beyond this.

TiredSoul
12-01-2018, 10:35 PM
thanks everyone who responded.

Still researching here and trying to make a budget. Say, if I train for a PPL at the 141 school with their plane and under part 141 regs, is there a required minimum amount of hours of ground instruction in such programs? Basically asking if it is possible to self-study.

This is kind of hard to explain without talking in person as we can talk about this for hours but here we go:

The school is Part 141 certified but that does not mean every student needs to enroll into a Part 141 course of training.
My brain is rusty but I recall a 141 school needs at least 10 students with an 80% pass rate in 2 years to maintain their 141 status.
So not all need to be 141 unless itís a rural place and they donít have a lot of customers come through the door.
Itís not unusual for a 141 school to bump you off a 141 course and finish you under Part 61 if youíre struggling and you may put a ding in their pass rate.

Example:
Youíre struggling during your Private and the school decides to have you fly an additional 5 hrs solo ( difference between 141 and 61 reqs) before sending you up for a check ride.

Quick little calculation here:
Letís say airplane is $150 and CFI is $50 ( just for easy numbers).
Hour dual is $200
Hour ground is $50
You can do 4hrs ground for every hour of dual.
A good instructor will not let you up in the airplane if you donít understand it on the ground first.
Do not underestimate the power of groundschool. This is where an instructor really shines.
If they do an extra 20 hrs of ground school but save you 6 hrs of dual flight time you are keeping money in your pocket.

In your situation I would probably recommend you do the following:

Private part 61 as there is the least amount of difference with 141 which actually robs you of 5 hrs solo but nothing changes in the time it takes you to learn. Still do the ground school with their CFIís as you canít teach yourself how to fly. Yes you can study regulations and meteorology by yourself but you canít dully learn a maneuver from a book.
Your PPL training will allow you to make an educated decision if you want to do your IR with them and with which instructor.
You are the customer, you can request a particular CFI that you just have a good connection with.


Instrument rating Part 141 as this allows you to start right after your ppl without having to do the 50hrs XC requirement first.
For your total time you still need the 50 but Iíll come back to that.
Do not skimp on your instrument rating as this is a skill which does not come natural and will certainly kill you if disrespected.

Private and IR in the pocket with total around a 100hrs.
Now leave the school and find the cheapest airplaneyou can find which is still IFR certified/capable amd safe to fly and go build an additional 100hrs, all XC and most on an IFR flightplan and at least half of it at night. Take a buddy along and a view limiting device and log simulated intrument time also.
Itís not about how much you pay for the plane per se but how many columns you can fill in your logbook flying the same hour and spending the same amount.


Now at 200hrs TT go back to the school or find another and ask for them to combine your Conmercial SE with your CFI training.
There is no regulation that requires you fly your CPL SE check ride from the left seat. Learning the maneuvers and walking, talking and chewing gun at the same time will save you about 20-25 hrs of dual flying which is about $5000 depending on the airplane.
Notify the examiner beforehand that you will be flying from the right seat and that you are close to your CFI check ride and if he can give you any hints and tips after you pass your CPL.
Treat the flying part as if itís a CFI initial check ride.

That is about as much money as I can save you.
Iíll leave you with the following which is something that I would ask prospective customers:

School A the airplane is $100/hr and school B the airplane is $200/hr and instruction at both places is $50/hr.

School A does a Private in average 90 hrs and school B does a Private in average 45 hrs.

Which one is the better school to go to?
Itís not all about how much it costs itís more about the value for the money.

wyomingpilot1
12-02-2018, 08:26 AM
In your situation I would probably recommend you do the following:

Private part 61 as there is the least amount of difference with 141 which actually robs you of 5 hrs solo but nothing changes in the time it takes you to learn. Still do the ground school with their CFI’s as you can’t teach yourself how to fly. Yes you can study regulations and meteorology by yourself but you can’t dully learn a maneuver from a book.

What exactly would be the benefit of doing PPL under part 61 and hiring their instructors for ground school as you described? What would make this different from taking the 141 program?

Also one more question how come there are scores of accounts on the internet of flight training from 0 - CFI costing 60-100k? When I talk to the chief CFI at the local flight school and add up their numbers (which they do not seem to skimp on- they quote PPL at 60 hours rental for instance) I get closer to 40k with possibility of being around 30k with divine providence or extreme frugality playing a role. Am I just looking at very economical flight school or being hopelessly optimistic that I could start taking pilot's work after 30-40k?

thanks again!

TiredSoul
12-02-2018, 09:21 AM
What exactly would be the benefit of doing PPL under part 61 and hiring their instructors for ground school as you described? What would make this different from taking the 141 program?


Part 61. - 40 hrs of which 10 solo
Part 141 - 35 hrs of which 5 solo

Part 61 - use of an approved syllabus is recommended
Part 141 - use of an approved syllabus is mandatory

141 therefore doesnít give you a whole lot of flexibility if you struggle as a student. Instructor canít say hey this ainít working something is not clicking letís do another lesson and come back to this later.
141 forces you to repeat and repeat and repeat a lesson as you cannot do lessons out of sequence.

Example:
Student struggles with landings.
Now instead of just repeating the same ad nauseum under Part 61 the instructor is free to get some other dual requirements out of the way such as the 3 hr instrument, 3 hr night and the dual cross country flights without frustrating the efforts and keeping the student motivated.
People donít learn the same skills at the same pace.
Iíve had students that soloed early and Iíve had students that soloed at 30hrs and they still both finished at 45hrs.
You can only do that under Part 61.

YOU NEED FORMAL GROUND SCHOOL

What you need to understand stand is that PPL and IR and CPL have overlapping knowledge areas such as regulations, weather and airspace just to name a couple.
If you donít learn it right during Private youíll pay (again) later in the process.
Thereís saving money and selling yourself short.

The advantage of 141 is that you can start your IR right after your PPL and you can do the required time building on an IFR flight plan later which makes it more valuable time. It also much safer at night.

Iím going to use some rounded up numbers
100 % Part 61:
50 hrs PPL
50 hrs XC time building
50 hrs IR
50 hrs IFR XC timebuilding
50 hrs dual for CPL and CFI
250 hrs TT

100 % 141
50hrs PPL
50hrs IR
120 hrs CPL course which is mostly dual
This has a metric ton more dual instruction and doesnít allow you the flexibility in the time building and combining lessons.

The problem here is that Iím trying to explain something that requires knowledge of 61/141 syllabus and regulations to understand.
Technically 141 requires only 35hrs for the Instrument rating but Iíve NEVER had a student finish it in 35hrs and both KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they were doing.
I worked for a very good school and our average for the IR was 42hrs.
Now you also have to consider start up and taxi and travel time to a practice area and vicinity of airports that have the approaches that you need to practice and so on.
Nearest airport that had an ILS approach was 30 miles away which is 15 min flying time each way.
Now you try and use this time in a valuable manner but Part 141 lessons do not assume or include ďtravel timeĒ.
Lessons calls for an hour.
Well yes but youíve been #5 for take off and theyíre using a different runway and that adds time to fly the instrument approaches the lesson calls for.
Makes any sense?
This Conmercial syllabus has 110hrs dual instruction. Schools have tos tuck to their syllabus like glue and will be penalized if they deviate:

http://skybnd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Commercial1.pdf

You can wring a ton more useful experience out of a hybrid 61-141-61 program.

What Iím going to ask you to do is talk with an Instructor that understands this.
Now Iím going to make you an offer you canít refuse.
If you canít find anybody to explain it to you then send me a PM and I will call you and talk to you.

wyomingpilot1
12-03-2018, 05:51 AM
Thanks for the offer! I will try to find someone who can explain that at the flight school, the CFI I spoke with didnt offer so many specifics, all she has to say is that 141 is better for every reason. I'm just trying to make a budget given their rates.

chronomaster31
12-03-2018, 05:33 PM
Part 61. - 40 hrs of which 10 solo
Part 141 - 35 hrs of which 5 solo

Part 61 - use of an approved syllabus is recommended
Part 141 - use of an approved syllabus is mandatory

141 therefore doesnít give you a whole lot of flexibility if you struggle as a student. Instructor canít say hey this ainít working something is not clicking letís do another lesson and come back to this later.
141 forces you to repeat and repeat and repeat a lesson as you cannot do lessons out of sequence.

Example:
Student struggles with landings.
Now instead of just repeating the same ad nauseum under Part 61 the instructor is free to get some other dual requirements out of the way such as the 3 hr instrument, 3 hr night and the dual cross country flights without frustrating the efforts and keeping the student motivated.
People donít learn the same skills at the same pace.
Iíve had students that soloed early and Iíve had students that soloed at 30hrs and they still both finished at 45hrs.
You can only do that under Part 61.

YOU NEED FORMAL GROUND SCHOOL

What you need to understand stand is that PPL and IR and CPL have overlapping knowledge areas such as regulations, weather and airspace just to name a couple.
If you donít learn it right during Private youíll pay (again) later in the process.
Thereís saving money and selling yourself short.

The advantage of 141 is that you can start your IR right after your PPL and you can do the required time building on an IFR flight plan later which makes it more valuable time. It also much safer at night.

Iím going to use some rounded up numbers
100 % Part 61:
50 hrs PPL
50 hrs XC time building
50 hrs IR
50 hrs IFR XC timebuilding
50 hrs dual for CPL and CFI
250 hrs TT

100 % 141
50hrs PPL
50hrs IR
120 hrs CPL course which is mostly dual
This has a metric ton more dual instruction and doesnít allow you the flexibility in the time building and combining lessons.

The problem here is that Iím trying to explain something that requires knowledge of 61/141 syllabus and regulations to understand.
Technically 141 requires only 35hrs for the Instrument rating but Iíve NEVER had a student finish it in 35hrs and both KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they were doing.
I worked for a very good school and our average for the IR was 42hrs.
Now you also have to consider start up and taxi and travel time to a practice area and vicinity of airports that have the approaches that you need to practice and so on.
Nearest airport that had an ILS approach was 30 miles away which is 15 min flying time each way.
Now you try and use this time in a valuable manner but Part 141 lessons do not assume or include ďtravel timeĒ.
Lessons calls for an hour.
Well yes but youíve been #5 for take off and theyíre using a different runway and that adds time to fly the instrument approaches the lesson calls for.
Makes any sense?
This Conmercial syllabus has 110hrs dual instruction. Schools have tos tuck to their syllabus like glue and will be penalized if they deviate:

http://skybnd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Commercial1.pdf

You can wring a ton more useful experience out of a hybrid 61-141-61 program.

What Iím going to ask you to do is talk with an Instructor that understands this.
Now Iím going to make you an offer you canít refuse.
If you canít find anybody to explain it to you then send me a PM and I will call you and talk to you.Holy crap 110 hours of dual? No wonder it's so expensive

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

TiredSoul
12-03-2018, 05:52 PM
Well there are advantages and disadvantages to both 61 and 141 training.
It takes like 20 pages to explain all the minutiae so Iím not doing that here lol.

Again itís all in the execution so itís hard if not impossible to say that one is by definition better then the other.

Same as not every combination is suitable for every potential student.

JohnBurke
12-03-2018, 10:26 PM
Holy crap 110 hours of dual? No wonder it's so expensive


Training doesn't end with getting basic pilot certification. There comes a point when intensive training is required for each mand and model of aircraft one flies.

The last aircraft type I was trained on had more than 110 hours of dual just for that one specific aircraft, initially. Then another 25 hours of line training, and 100 hours of time on the line before I was considered "trained."

What's being discussed here is just scratching the surface, to get started.

wyomingpilot1
12-04-2018, 06:50 PM
Training doesn't end with getting basic pilot certification. There comes a point when intensive training is required for each mand and model of aircraft one flies.

The last aircraft type I was trained on had more than 110 hours of dual just for that one specific aircraft, initially. Then another 25 hours of line training, and 100 hours of time on the line before I was considered "trained."

What's being discussed here is just scratching the surface, to get started.

Is this kind of intensive model specific training usually paid for by whoever is hiring you to fly that plane?

JohnBurke
12-04-2018, 07:05 PM
Is this kind of intensive model specific training usually paid for by whoever is hiring you to fly that plane?

That depends on what you're doing and for whom you are doing it.

That kind of "intensive training model" is called "flight training," and its the nature of flying from the time you're a student pilot until you're either retired or dead.

When considering the training received for initial pilot certification, yes, you'll usually pay for it. Most of us did.

Many of us obtained additional training, and many of bore those costs, too. Every aircraft you fly, every type of flying you do, requires training. Initially a pilot pays for much of it himself or herself.

One ought not balk at getting good training. It's the least expensive money you'll ever spend. One ought not seek the cheapest option. It may be the most expensive money you'll ever spend.

wyomingpilot1
12-06-2018, 03:45 PM
There is good training and then there is an inflated training industry based totally on suckering people in to pay high prices for things they don't know much about. No balking at good training here, only looking for tips on minimizing flight training expenses. Last winter, there was a yoga teacher training here in town that offered to certify you as a yoga teacher. I was interested thinking it would cost like 200 bucks or something but it was 3000 dollars. I think I would have to teach yoga here in this Wyoming town of 10,000 for 500 years to recoup the investment. I'm sure it was good training.

JohnBurke
12-06-2018, 04:09 PM
Sounds like you already know everything. Good luck.



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