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View Full Version : Can you fly part 91?


WhatsV1
12-04-2018, 04:40 PM
I have only been through orientation and I have the opportunity to do some 91 flying. I havent gotten an answer from who I asked but was wondering if there is somewhere that says I cannot or someone who can answer? Thanks


poorflyer
12-04-2018, 05:37 PM
From what I understand legally you can instructor since it doesn't count towards 117. However most will advise to focus mainly on completing CBTs and studying for training. I asked the chief in orientation as well and he advised against it. As for our official policy I'm not sure. I'm sure there's some SOP that says no outside work but not sure. So really up to you, but maybe don't advertise it if you do.

I should clarify this applies to instructing. Part 91k or 91 ops for a 121 carrier still count towards 117 limitations.

WhatsV1
12-04-2018, 05:43 PM
Thanks, I have already completed all cbts and studying everyday. Appreciate the feedback I will have to look into it a little more. Wouldnt want to ruin my airline career for it.


FollowMe
12-04-2018, 05:46 PM
Safest bet is to run it through a CP, it’s technically possible but I would want to make sure I had their sign off just for CYA.

Shangri La
12-04-2018, 05:47 PM
Yes your allowed to do flight instruction as it doesnt count against part 117. Just email the chiefs with a request to do outside flight instruction and save the approval email so that way down the road if there's any questions your covered.

WhatsV1
12-04-2018, 05:59 PM
Thanks, for the replies. I aksed my supervisor, just waiting on an answer. I know those guys can be busy.

TillerThriller
12-04-2018, 06:21 PM
As long as it is not some bags to Bradford you should be fine! Sorry couldn’t resist.

BobbyLeeSwagger
12-05-2018, 04:00 AM
As long as it is not some bags to Bradford you should be fine! Sorry couldn’t resist.

This is good advice!

PanchoBarnes
12-05-2018, 11:21 PM
Yes you can.
91 subpart K is different I think.
Part 135 and 121 are no because of duty time.

Strictly 91 is fine. I talked to a chief about it before.

Makes no difference if it’s a prop or jet either.

JohnBurke
12-06-2018, 01:33 AM
Flight instruction performed under Part 91, if you are compensated, is "other commercial flying,' and must be considered in calculating your flight time limitations.

Flight instruction under Part 91 which is not compensated is not "other commercial flying."

Use caution, as the FAA has determined that the logging of flight time is considered compensation.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2012/rodriguez%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Flying other than instruction, if compensated, is "other commerical flying," and likewise counts against your flight time limitations under Part 121.

Banner towing, firefighting, flying jumpers, ag flying, etc...all count toward the total flight time limitations applicable under 121 or 135.

Excargodog
12-06-2018, 07:05 AM
Flight instruction performed under Part 91, if you are compensated, is "other commercial flying,' and must be considered in calculating your flight time limitations.

Flight instruction under Part 91 which is not compensated is not "other commercial flying."

Use caution, as the FAA has determined that the logging of flight time is considered compensation.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2012/rodriguez%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Flying other than instruction, if compensated, is "other commerical flying," and likewise counts against your flight time limitations under Part 121.

Banner towing, firefighting, flying jumpers, ag flying, etc...all count toward the total flight time limitations applicable under 121 or 135.

Which begs the question of - if the company has placed him in a holding pattern where he's not getting ANY hours, they should even care?

He's weeks, possibly months away from any Part 121 flying. I'd think the company would be glad to have him keep his proficiency and currency up on someone else's dime in the interim.

Not that I'd do it without something in writing from one of the Chief pilots, logical as that sounds.

WhatsV1
12-06-2018, 08:41 AM
Which begs the question of - if the company has placed him in a holding pattern where he's not getting ANY hours, they should even care?

He's weeks, possibly months away from any Part 121 flying. I'd think the company would be glad to have him keep his proficiency and currency up on someone else's dime in the interim.

Not that I'd do it without something in writing from one of the Chief pilots, logical as that sounds.

I would think the same, but sound logic doesnt always resonate with some people or companies. 😂

JohnBurke
12-06-2018, 01:10 PM
Which begs the question of - if the company has placed him in a holding pattern where he's not getting ANY hours, they should even care?

He's weeks, possibly months away from any Part 121 flying. I'd think the company would be glad to have him keep his proficiency and currency up on someone else's dime in the interim.

Not that I'd do it without something in writing from one of the Chief pilots, logical as that sounds.

I've been known to do just that over the years at different times. i flew entire fire seasons concurrent to other work and neither employer knew. It wasn't a problem until I had a hydraulic loss one day and found myself in a unique situation that I hadn't planned, circling an airport, a closed runway opening for my use, and two news helicopters and a bunch of reporters standing by to capture a crash.

Nothing happened; it was uneventful and they went away disappointed, but it left me doing a lot of thinking about the fact that it might have been a surprise to employer B when I turned up on the news doing something that was decidedly not working for that employer.

The flight time didn't impact either one insofar as pushing limits, but it was all commercial flying (Part 91 in the case of the emergency aircraft). Under the regulation, it all counted toward any flight time limits for the certificate holder.

I did get a nice certificate and padded case, and a hat out of it, which was nice. And I think I lost five pounds.

BobbyLeeSwagger
12-07-2018, 07:15 PM
I've been known to do just that over the years at different times. i flew entire fire seasons concurrent to other work and neither employer knew. It wasn't a problem until I had a hydraulic loss one day and found myself in a unique situation that I hadn't planned, circling an airport, a closed runway opening for my use, and two news helicopters and a bunch of reporters standing by to capture a crash.

Nothing happened; it was uneventful and they went away disappointed, but it left me doing a lot of thinking about the fact that it might have been a surprise to employer B when I turned up on the news doing something that was decidedly not working for that employer.

The flight time didn't impact either one insofar as pushing limits, but it was all commercial flying (Part 91 in the case of the emergency aircraft). Under the regulation, it all counted toward any flight time limits for the certificate holder.

I did get a nice certificate and padded case, and a hat out of it, which was nice. And I think I lost five pounds.

That's crazy, what was it like to lose 5 lbs? Asking for an overweight friend....

Excargodog
12-07-2018, 07:57 PM
That's crazy, what was it like to lose 5 lbs? Asking for an overweight friend....

And trash-canned the underwear along with the included five pounds of weight loss...

BobbyLeeSwagger
12-07-2018, 08:21 PM
And trash-canned the underwear along with the included five pounds of weight loss...

Hey excargodog, you never said to bring chapstick for my first winter in msp.. Good grief.. My lips got more crack than a drug house in south central.. I mean it feels like someone smacked me across the face with their car keys.. I'm in pain homie

Excargodog
12-10-2018, 02:23 PM
Hey excargodog, you never said to bring chapstick for my first winter in msp.. Good grief.. My lips got more crack than a drug house in south central.. I mean it feels like someone smacked me across the face with their car keys.. I'm in pain homie




Cowboy up. You are only there for an upgrade. You'll be in and out before ice fishing season officially opens...maybe.

:D:D

BobbyLeeSwagger
12-10-2018, 04:21 PM
Cowboy up. You are only there for an upgrade. You'll be in and out before ice fishing season officially opens...maybe.

:D:D

There's an ice fishing season? unbelievable. I have to check my calendar in LA to know what season we're in before I leave for msp.. Yep definitely winter

Excargodog
12-10-2018, 04:37 PM
There's an ice fishing season? unbelievable. I have to check my calendar in LA to know what season we're in before I leave for msp.. Yep definitely winter



Yep. There's an ice fishing season. Coldest beer you'll ever drink, I kid you not....

PanchoBarnes
12-11-2018, 09:36 AM
I like how this went from pt 91 flying to ice fishing, oh ya know

Excargodog
12-11-2018, 01:25 PM
I like how this went from pt 91 flying to ice fishing, oh ya know

I think we actually came to a consensus on Part 91, find some gullible young CP to give tacit approval (in writing) and then blame him if somebody gets upset.

But Bobby Lee (like many others) was psychologically unprepared for Minnesota winters. Yeah, he knew it would be cool to upgrade, but this cool?

Current conditions at
Minneapolis, Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport (KMSP)
Lat: 44.88°NLon: 93.23°WElev: 840ft.

Overcast with Haze
26°F
-3°C
Humidity 78%
Wind Speed SE 9 mph
Barometer 29.91 in (1014.4 mb)
Dewpoint 20°F (-7°C)
Visibility 6.00 mi
Wind Chill 17°F (-8°C)
Last update 11 Dec 3:53 pm CST

Not so much. That's a might chill for a LAX guy.

Of course, it's gonna be a lot colder in about twelve hours....

BobbyLeeSwagger
12-11-2018, 02:23 PM
But Bobby Lee (like many others) was psychologically unprepared for Minnesota winters. Yeah, he knew it would be cool to upgrade, but this cool?.

At first I was excited.. On the descent into MSP I saw all the snow and quietly hummed to myself "It's beginning... to look...a lot like chrisstttmmaaass." Then -SMACK- I walked into the jet bridge and it only got worse from there.. Upgrading in the winter was the worse mistake I made this year after buying my wife (who is a phenomenal baker) a KitchenAid.. If there was ever any hope of weight loss, it's gone now..

Excargodog
12-11-2018, 04:07 PM
Have you tried the fried cheese curds and jam?

https://foursquare.com/top-places/minneapolis/best-places-cheese-curds

They'll add a few knots to your approach speed for your first captain landing on runway 8 at KBUR.

ninerdriver
12-12-2018, 05:51 AM
Have you tried the fried cheese curds and jam?

https://foursquare.com/top-places/minneapolis/best-places-cheese-curds

They'll add a few knots to your approach speed for your first captain landing on runway 8 at KBUR.

Plus donuts (or anything!) from Angel Food. Go downtown during training if you have a chance, or hit them up in Concourse E if you don't.

WhatsV1
12-12-2018, 08:04 AM
Plus donuts (or anything!) from Angel Food. Go downtown during training if you have a chance, or hit them up in Concourse E if you don't.


I'd like to pass my medical, but much like a military PT test, I will do what I want until a couple weeks before. Furthermore, that snack basket stands no chance once I get on the line.

WhatsV1
12-12-2018, 08:13 AM
I think we actually came to a consensus on Part 91, find some gullible young CP to give tacit approval (in writing) and then blame him if somebody gets upset.

But Bobby Lee (like many others) was psychologically unprepared for Minnesota winters. Yeah, he knew it would be cool to upgrade, but this cool?



Not so much. That's a might chill for a LAX guy.

Of course, it's gonna be a lot colder in about twelve hours....


Being from the northeast I have seen some cold days. Then I went to orientation in MSP, it was cold everyday. I'll be back to MSP next week and there until FEB as of now. In no way am I excited about the below freezing temps I am about to endure. Sleeping on ice with the A/C down should help me prepare.

Av8rPHX
12-21-2018, 04:12 PM
Why putz around the pattern in a 172 when you can do a part 91 repo in a 175 to Nashville almost biweekly. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DiamondDriver
12-21-2018, 08:51 PM
Why putz around the pattern in a 172 when you can do a part 91 repo in a 175 to Nashville almost biweekly. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As a Nashville commuter, I plan on cornering that biweekly 3am repo market when I hit the line in a few weeks

jungle driver
12-21-2018, 08:59 PM
As a Nashville commuter, I plan on cornering that biweekly 3am repo market when I hit the line in a few weeks

get in line there is already plenty of BNA commuters trying to get these flights.

VIRotate
12-21-2018, 11:07 PM
get in line there is already plenty of BNA commuters trying to get these flights.

We have BNA commuters?!

Av8rPHX
12-22-2018, 01:45 PM
We have BNA commuters?!



Several.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Biggbird
12-22-2018, 03:45 PM
Flight instruction performed under Part 91, if you are compensated, is "other commercial flying,' and must be considered in calculating your flight time limitations.

Flight instruction under Part 91 which is not compensated is not "other commercial flying."

Use caution, as the FAA has determined that the logging of flight time is considered compensation.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2012/rodriguez%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

Flying other than instruction, if compensated, is "other commerical flying," and likewise counts against your flight time limitations under Part 121.

Banner towing, firefighting, flying jumpers, ag flying, etc...all count toward the total flight time limitations applicable under 121 or 135.


According to that letter, yes but that no longer applies since 117 changed a few years back and no longer covers “commercial flying”.

§ 117.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes flight and duty limitations and rest requirements for all flightcrew members and certificate holders conducting passenger operations under part 121 of this chapter.

(b) This part applies to all operations directed by part 121 certificate holders under part 91, other than subpart K, of this chapter if any segment is conducted as a domestic passenger, flag passenger, or supplemental passenger operation.

(c) This part applies to all flightcrew members when participating in an operation under part 91, other than subpart K of this chapter, on behalf of the part 121 certificate holder if any flight segment is conducted as a domestic passenger, flag passenger, or supplemental passenger operation

(d) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of this section, a certificate holder may conduct under part 117 its part 121 operations pursuant to 121.470, 121.480, or 121.500.

Part 117 only applies to certificate holders and pilots performing flying for certificate holders. Instructing in Joe Bobs local flight school does not count against 117 since there is no certificate. Instructing for a university or some other 141 school counts since it is on behalf of a certificate holder. Flying under 135, 91k, 121 (even if its a nonrevenue 91 leg) counts too.

The company may have a problem with it but the only rule you need to comply with is no more than 8 in 24 as a cfi.

CBreezy
12-25-2018, 12:48 PM
According to that letter, yes but that no longer applies since 117 changed a few years back and no longer covers “commercial flying”.

§ 117.1 Applicability.
(a) This part prescribes flight and duty limitations and rest requirements for all flightcrew members and certificate holders conducting passenger operations under part 121 of this chapter.

(b) This part applies to all operations directed by part 121 certificate holders under part 91, other than subpart K, of this chapter if any segment is conducted as a domestic passenger, flag passenger, or supplemental passenger operation.

(c) This part applies to all flightcrew members when participating in an operation under part 91, other than subpart K of this chapter, on behalf of the part 121 certificate holder if any flight segment is conducted as a domestic passenger, flag passenger, or supplemental passenger operation

(d) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of this section, a certificate holder may conduct under part 117 its part 121 operations pursuant to 121.470, 121.480, or 121.500.

Part 117 only applies to certificate holders and pilots performing flying for certificate holders. Instructing in Joe Bobs local flight school does not count against 117 since there is no certificate. Instructing for a university or some other 141 school counts since it is on behalf of a certificate holder. Flying under 135, 91k, 121 (even if its a nonrevenue 91 leg) counts too.

The company may have a problem with it but the only rule you need to comply with is no more than 8 in 24 as a cfi.

According to your own post, the applicability applies when operating for the 121 certificate holder. FAR 117 doesn't apply to 141 doesn't fall under 117 and wouldn't be applied to 117 limits.

poorflyer
12-25-2018, 02:02 PM
Just sell drugs on the side, it's a lot easier.

Biggbird
12-25-2018, 08:13 PM
According to your own post, the applicability applies when operating for the 121 certificate holder. FAR 117 doesn't apply to 141 doesn't fall under 117 and wouldn't be applied to 117 limits.

Right, that’s the point. Flying done outside the airline (even commercial) does not count towards part 117 flight time limits at the airline for this exact reason... 117 only applies to your limits at the airline.

Other posters incorrectly thought time flight instructing, flying skydivers, etc. counted against their 117 limits. It doesnt.

TimetoClimb
01-01-2019, 07:52 AM
Right, that’s the point. Flying done outside the airline (even commercial) does not count towards part 117 flight time limits at the airline for this exact reason... 117 only applies to your limits at the airline.

Other posters incorrectly thought time flight instructing, flying skydivers, etc. counted against their 117 limits. It doesnt.

You're wrong, sorta. It applies to all flying done for a certificate holder. The section you quoted says nothing more than the rest rules of 117 apply to 121 carriers. But the flight time limitations must include outside flying (done by part 135, part 91K). Straight part 91 is exempted however, so you're right about that. Maybe you were using part 91 compensated flying and "commercial" flying interchangeably? but anyways, See below.


117.23 Cumulative limitations.
(a) The limitations of this section include all flying by flightcrew members on behalf of any certificate holder or 91K Program Manager during the applicable periods.


As far as I can tell, flight instruction does not need to be included when considering cumulative totals, but most carriers want to know about it.