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F4E Mx
12-05-2018, 03:50 PM
One survivor of a total of seven crew (for both airplanes) picked up alive after refueling accident. Search is ongoing.


UAL T38 Phlyer
12-05-2018, 04:46 PM
Dammit.

:(

Prayers for all.

cheap
12-05-2018, 05:31 PM
Oh no.

Please post details or source links here as you find them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


hockey27
12-05-2018, 06:51 PM
Nkawtg.... N!!!

F4E Mx
12-06-2018, 03:09 AM
Oh no.

Please post details or source links here as you find them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/world/asia/marines-japan.html

Second crewman found alive, five still missing.

rickair7777
12-06-2018, 07:40 AM
The guys with ejection seats are accounted for, one ok one reported dead. Unknown status for the rest. Still hoping.

Fair winds and following seas.

joepilot
12-06-2018, 12:33 PM
A C-130 refueling a high performance fighter? What could possibly go wrong?

Anybody know what speed the C-130 would have been using for the A/R? I have flown with some old KC-97 pilots that said that they needed to be in a full power descent to get fast enough to refuel certain fighters.

Joe

Peacock
12-06-2018, 01:00 PM
A C-130 refueling a high performance fighter? What could possibly go wrong?

Anybody know what speed the C-130 would have been using for the A/R? I have flown with some old KC-97 pilots that said that they needed to be in a full power descent to get fast enough to refuel certain fighters.

Joe

KC-130ís refuel F-18ís, AV-8ís, and F-35ís routinely. Itís a very common occurrence.

USMCFLYR
12-06-2018, 01:20 PM
A C-130 refueling a high performance fighter? What could possibly go wrong?

Anybody know what speed the C-130 would have been using for the A/R? I have flown with some old KC-97 pilots that said that they needed to be in a full power descent to get fast enough to refuel certain fighters.

Joe
it is extremely common place.
I've done KC-130 tanking at 500'.
besides the turbulence causing problems over the Northern Territory desert - it isn't a problem.

1wife2airlines
12-06-2018, 01:22 PM
Sad and happening just after the release of this report: https://s3.amazonaws.com/static.militarytimes.com/assets/public-release-command-investigation-report-yanky-72-redacted.pdf

USMCFLYR
12-08-2018, 05:40 AM
Pilot identified.
Squadron VMFA(AW)-242 ‘Bats’ home stationed out of MCAS Iwakuni.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/12/07/marines-identify-fa-18-pilot-killed-in-crash-off-japanese-coast-c-130-crew-still-missing/

galaxy flyer
12-08-2018, 04:38 PM
Iíll bet that was fun, USMCFLYR! Once I got to refuel off a KC-135 around 3,000í MSL; weird seeing the ground so close while tanking, but much easier.

GF

USMCFLYR
12-08-2018, 05:58 PM
I’ll bet that was fun, USMCFLYR! Once I got to refuel off a KC-135 around 3,000’ MSL; weird seeing the ground so close while tanking, but much easier.

GF
We actually had two other sections later that day not get the gas off the low level so they didn’t have enough for the CAS mission (with FACs on the ground) and the CAS was cancelled. Later our OPSO asked the KC-130 training officer just how low they needed to be for that low altitude tanking qual and he said 5,000’! :eek:
So up we went and had no problems at anytime of the day.
Mission success on both ends.

PurpleToolBox
12-09-2018, 11:29 AM
KC-130’s refuel F-18’s, AV-8’s, and F-35’s routinely. It’s a very common occurrence.

It may be very common. But I can assure you, during every operation I was involved in as a AAR scheduler/execution bubba, the USN and USMC LNOs pleaded ... begged ... to NOT be scheduled with any 130s.

Usually the AOC was never given OPCON of KC-130s so if you were scheduled to AAR with one, it was your own services doing.

Peacock
12-09-2018, 08:06 PM
It may be very common. But I can assure you, during every operation I was involved in as a AAR scheduler/execution bubba, the USN and USMC LNOs pleaded ... begged ... to NOT be scheduled with any 130s.

Usually the AOC was never given OPCON of KC-130s so if you were scheduled to AAR with one, it was your own services doing.

We greatly preferred KC-130ís because they were only tasked to us. That gave a lot more flexibility compared to an AF tanker that had other places to be before and after our scheduled AR. The big wing tankers were slightly easier at higher altitudes at higher speeds with bigger baskets, but the original comment that implied fighters tanking off KC-130ís risked a mid air was way off base.

USMCFLYR
12-10-2018, 12:13 AM
I remember one time having a problem out of Guam so I was left behind. The plan was to attach to the cell of 6 the next day and continue until the USAF told us that they couldnít accommodate 7 receivers in a cell. We started discussions with SUMO and asked how many they could take and the answer was as many as we needed.

Unless Iím going A LONG WAY in a straight line, I would prefer a KC-130 over a -135 any day of the week! That hard basket is a tough nut. :cool::eek:

PurpleToolBox
12-10-2018, 01:42 PM
I remember one time having a problem out of Guam so I was left behind. The plan was to attach to the cell of 6 the next day and continue until the USAF told us that they couldn’t accommodate 7 receivers in a cell. We started discussions with SUMO and asked how many they could take and the answer was as many as we needed.

Unless I’m going A LONG WAY in a straight line, I would prefer a KC-130 over a -135 any day of the week! That hard basket is a tough nut. :cool::eek:

I spent a career in AAR operations and nearly ten years in the AOC business. I'm not bragging, just saying this. During my tenure, I've seen the USN/USMC sign off on ****e that would NEVER fly with the USAF.

The six ship limit per tanker is a tried and true policy from decades of AAR data to support it. Why only six? Because drogue AAR is so slow, and prone to receivers having problems getting on the drogue and other operational problems that if you have more than six receivers, the first to air refuel starts to get low on fuel before they can cycle back to the drogue.

I once saw a 18-ship USMC F-18 fighter drag with 3KC-10s where the fighters had lost two abort windows due to no suitable airfields (nor'easter rolling up the coast of Canada). In other words, for two of the scheduled air refuelings during the drag, had there been an emergency in one of the fighters, there wasn't any divert bases available. Depending on the situation the pilot would have been swimming. And considering the weather, I don't see how you survive that. There's no way the USAF would sign off on that unless we were at war, not contingency bull crap.

Yeah, the KC-135 strap-on sucks. Everyone hates it. Scheduling it is a PITA because only the USN will use it now (NATO has pretty much said no). Some of the 135s now have wingtip drogues. Everyone likes KC-10s.

cheap
12-11-2018, 05:55 AM
The search has been called off and the five KC crew members have been declared deceased. A toast...

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/12/11/search-called-off-for-5-marines-aboard-lost-c-130/

rickair7777
12-11-2018, 06:09 AM
I spent a career in AAR operations and nearly ten years in the AOC business. I'm not bragging, just saying this. During my tenure, I've seen the USN/USMC sign off on ****e that would NEVER fly with the USAF.

The six ship limit per tanker is a tried and true policy from decades of AAR data to support it. Why only six? Because drogue AAR is so slow, and prone to receivers having problems getting on the drogue and other operational problems that if you have more than six receivers, the first to air refuel starts to get low on fuel before they can cycle back to the drogue.

I once saw a 18-ship USMC F-18 fighter drag with 3KC-10s where the fighters had lost two abort windows due to no suitable airfields (nor'easter rolling up the coast of Canada). In other words, for two of the scheduled air refuelings during the drag, had there been an emergency in one of the fighters, there wasn't any divert bases available. Depending on the situation the pilot would have been swimming. And considering the weather, I don't see how you survive that. There's no way the USAF would sign off on that unless we were at war, not contingency bull crap.

Yeah, the KC-135 strap-on sucks. Everyone hates it. Scheduling it is a PITA because only the USN will use it now (NATO has pretty much said no). Some of the 135s now have wingtip drogues. Everyone likes KC-10s.


If it was easy, you wouldn't need the Navy or Marine Corps... :D

You set yourself up for that...

rickair7777
12-11-2018, 06:10 AM
The search has been called off and the five KC crew members have been declared deceased. A toast...

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/12/11/search-called-off-for-5-marines-aboard-lost-c-130/

Fair winds... :(

galaxy flyer
12-11-2018, 06:40 AM
purpketoolbox,

I give you Gold 11, they donít hand out the MacKay Trophy for good briefings.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2008/August%202008/0808azores.pdf

RIP.

GF

UAL T38 Phlyer
12-11-2018, 08:08 AM
purpketoolbox,

I give you Gold 11, they donít hand out the MacKay Trophy for good briefings.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2008/August%202008/0808azores.pdf

RIP.

GF

GF:

Holy crap...never heard that one before!!

I was in a flight of six F-4Gs and we diverted to Santa Maria because Lajes winds went way out of limits. Talk about deja vu...Lajes was VMC but a 40 kt crosswind.

We went to Santa Maria...which was under a 800 ft overcast. NDB-only...not us. A Marine C-130 providing comm-relay as Santa Maria was VHF-only and we were UHF-only.

Did an ďNDBĒ approach :rolleyes: using our INS...which had drifted probably 10 miles on a six-hour hop from Incirlik.

Great story. Will be sharing it!

galaxy flyer
12-11-2018, 12:43 PM
I left Yenishehir AB in a flight of six A-10 headed to Lajes with horrible wind forecast, out of limits for the tankers. The plan was to top off overhead, the tankers would wait as long as they could, then leave. Finally, the 2ADG (long ago) thought better of it and we diverted just west of the straits to Torrejon.

But, no organization learns well. A good friend led a a four ship into Lajes with 40+ knot crosswinds, several blown tires, near excursions, #4 landed with the runway blocked by #3 with two blown tires and couldn’t taxi clear.

A guy in my C-5 unit had been in that KC-10 unit and knew the crew—pretty famous.

GF

PurpleToolBox
12-12-2018, 11:06 AM
purpketoolbox,

I give you Gold 11, they don’t hand out the MacKay Trophy for good briefings.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2008/August%202008/0808azores.pdf

RIP.

GF

I left Yenishehir AB in a flight of six A-10 headed to Lajes with horrible wind forecast, out of limits for the tankers. The plan was to top off overhead, the tankers would wait as long as they could, then leave. Finally, the 2ADG (long ago) thought better of it and we diverted just west of the straits to Torrejon.

But, no organization learns well. A good friend led a a four ship into Lajes with 40+ knot crosswinds, several blown tires, near excursions, #4 landed with the runway blocked by #3 with two blown tires and couldn’t taxi clear.

A guy in my C-5 unit had been in that KC-10 unit and knew the crew—pretty famous.

GF

THANK YOU!!

I am very aware of that story. I was trying to find it to include it in my diatribe, however I thought their callsign was Blue 21 ... and search functions failed me. Google also didn't find anything when searching crashes at Lajes. LOL

HOWEVER, my unit in the 90s (maybe 00s) had THE EXACT SAME SITUATION AS GOLD 21 did ... at Lajes ... but they didn't crash any fighters that day. The crew, remembering the story of Gold 21, and seeing what was getting ready to happen to their bros, fueled the KC-10 back up, took off and saved the day. I now work with many of them professionally. I know them well.

To the KC-130 crew, RIP. AAR is something many people in our business take for granted. All too many call it "admin" which frustrates me when I hear them say it. However, all it takes is a few careless seconds or loss of situation awareness and your day can immediately turn for the worst. May God bless those men.

USMCFLYR
12-12-2018, 01:18 PM
THANK YOU!!

I am very aware of that story. I was trying to find it to include it in my diatribe, however I thought their callsign was Blue 21 ... and search functions failed me. Google also didn't find anything when searching crashes at Lajes. LOL

HOWEVER, my unit in the 90s (maybe 00s) had THE EXACT SAME SITUATION AS GOLD 21 did ... at Lajes ... but they didn't crash any fighters that day. The crew, remembering the story of Gold 21, and seeing what was getting ready to happen to their bros, fueled the KC-10 back up, took off and saved the day. I now work with many of them professionally. I know them well.

To the KC-130 crew, RIP. AAR is something many people in our business take for granted. All too many call it "admin" which frustrates me when I hear them say it. However, all it takes is a few careless seconds or loss of situation awareness and your day can immediately turn for the worst. May God bless those men.

Was that other flight you are thinking of part of the translant package of 12 F/A-18Ds from VMFA(AW)-224 which almost put the entire flight in the water had it not been for that tanker launching (if their own accord wasn’t it?)

rickair7777
12-12-2018, 01:26 PM
AAR is something many people in our business take for granted. All too many call it "admin" which frustrates me when I hear them say it. However, all it takes is a few careless seconds or loss of situation awareness and your day can immediately turn for the worst. May God bless those men.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19921201-2

USMCFLYR
12-12-2018, 02:08 PM
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19921201-2
A college friend of mine was the AC on that first B-52 :(
Nicest guy in the world.
Ed Parent if any of you USAF types knew of him.

PurpleToolBox
12-12-2018, 05:21 PM
Was that other flight you are thinking of part of the translant package of 12 F/A-18Ds from VMFA(AW)-224 which almost put the entire flight in the water had it not been for that tanker launching (if their own accord wasnít it?)


Yes. Were you flying one of the 18s?

USMCFLYR
12-12-2018, 05:51 PM
Yes. Were you flying one of the 18s?
No...but I had a friend who was in the Safety department of MAG-31 (parent Group of VMFA(AW)-224) who told me what happened.

That Captain (wasn't it?) who launched when he realized what was happening saved the day!

Castle Bravo
12-12-2018, 05:58 PM
GOLD 11 earned the Mackay Trophy amongst tough competition in 1986. April of that year was El Dorado Canyon for the F-111s in Libya.
Well Done GOLD 11.

Grumble
12-12-2018, 07:38 PM
Somewhere out there is a KC-10 crew that saved my ass (and some guys on the ground) when I opted to roll the dice as a single ship and stay on a TIC rather than divert. Iím not sure what MMO is on a KC-10 but they were at least .9 Mach when I got SA on them to refuel. Got in the basket with about 2k of gas and no where to go. The guys on the ground were probably more greatful than me.

No one kicks ass without tanker gas.

Starlifter
12-13-2018, 01:20 AM
A college friend of mine was the AC on that first B-52 :(
Nicest guy in the world.
Ed Parent if any of you USAF types knew of him.

USMC, I did know Ed quite well when we were at Norton 1987-1989 time frame. A big, friendly likable guy. I believe you meant he was the AC on the first C-141.

USMCFLYR
12-13-2018, 01:52 AM
USMC, I did know Ed quite well when we were at Norton 1987-1989 time frame. A big, friendly likable guy. I believe you meant he was the AC on the first C-141.
Yes - that is what I meant Starlifter - thanks.
What a hoot Ed was.
Did you happen to run across a Paul Thompson during your -141 days too?

Castle Bravo
12-13-2018, 07:33 AM
That was a terrible day for the USAF; two C-141s and a B-1B went down that night, with no survivors.
If you're ever in Glasgow, MT, there is a very nice memorial next to the highway for the C-141 mishap. Well done by the city of Glasgow.

Starlifter
12-13-2018, 08:06 AM
Yes - that is what I meant Starlifter - thanks.
What a hoot Ed was.
Did you happen to run across a Paul Thompson during your -141 days too?

I donít remember Paul but it is possible I ran across him amongst the four active duty squadrons at Norton. My suitemate from Altus was the AC on the other 141 that went down that night...

USMCFLYR
12-13-2018, 08:54 AM
I donít remember Paul but it is possible I ran across him amongst the four active duty squadrons at Norton. My suitemate from Altus was the AC on the other 141 that went down that night...

Iím very sad to hear that you lost a friend in that mishap too.

Starlifter
12-13-2018, 11:15 AM
Iím very sad to hear that you lost a friend in that mishap too.

Thanks. They paid a helluva price. We learned alot from that accident and modified formation AAR accordingly. So many years ago...
When I now fly MSPóSEA at night...I look at the lights below and think about that night. RIP to all!

rickair7777
12-13-2018, 02:07 PM
Thanks. They paid a helluva price. We learned alot from that accident and modified formation AAR accordingly. So many years ago...
When I now fly MSPóSEA at night...I look at the lights below and think about that night. RIP to all!

I knew a bunch of 141 people from that era. I remember what the big take-away from that was.

1wife2airlines
12-14-2018, 06:26 PM
Just wondering while admiring the mutual admiration society of tankers and receivers. Does the "watch this" of the viet era still get told when tankers and receivers belly up to the bar?



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