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View Full Version : 305 captains


Day4mx
12-09-2018, 11:56 AM
So...the union is happy with the grievance process working? The company intentionally violated the contract for years. No back pay. No monetary award. Nothing. And the union is happy with this settlement? I sat at the top of the fo list for 2+ years when i should have been in that 305 and im getting nothing?! Costing me over $100k. The only thing this nutless union is good for is putting a positive spin on everything.


DarkSideMoon
12-09-2018, 12:15 PM
So...the union is happy with the grievance process working? The company intentionally violated the contract for years. No back pay. No monetary award. Nothing. And the union is happy with this settlement? I sat at the top of the fo list for 2+ years when i should have been in that 305 and im getting nothing?! Costing me over $100k. The only thing this nutless union is good for is putting a positive spin on everything.

Iím happy that the company is no longer allowed to get away with it, but I agree that itís hardly a huge win.

This whole thing shows me that A. The company doesnít give a flying **** about the contract. B. The company will continue to willfully violate the contract because itíll take at least two years for the grievance process to take place and will result in no monetary penalties.

Just something to keep in mind for future TAís. Without ironclad language in all the sections weíve left ambiguous it will be a no vote from me. The company canít be trusted to interpret the contract in a fair way so we must bargain for a TA with clear definitions and clear punishments for violations.

diverdriver2
12-09-2018, 03:08 PM
So...the union is happy with the grievance process working? The company intentionally violated the contract for years. No back pay. No monetary award. Nothing. And the union is happy with this settlement? I sat at the top of the fo list for 2+ years when i should have been in that 305 and im getting nothing?! Costing me over $100k. The only thing this nutless union is good for is putting a positive spin on everything.

Odd. The union WON a grievance on upgrade bypass due to FOM required PIC to be a jet CA at AWAC (somewhere around the 2001 era). There was no guarantee of upgrade success then but pilots were paid out. That set precedence and they didn't use it?


Day4mx
12-09-2018, 09:40 PM
The union celebrates a win while that piece of **** frisch laughs all the way home.

SideFlare
12-09-2018, 09:51 PM
The union celebrates a win while that piece of **** frisch laughs all the way home.

Bobby Fresh is still VP of Ops over there? One wouldíve thought that the #MeToo movement wouldíve snared him by now. Jesus... What a turd.

*I donít support the MeToo movement, I simply dislike B. Fresh that much.

Junkyard Dog
12-11-2018, 04:40 AM
Our union leadership sucks
We won nothing as the company got away with having less than 305 CAs. They willingly and knowingly violate the contract.
Remember the pay protected FOs who couldnít upgrade due to an FO shortage? They were pay protected for a little over a year when the contract clearly states they have 120 days to get them into training.
Or the grievance about LCAs bidding FO lines first? Nothing became of that either. As long as we have guys like KN as MEC chair, nothing will get done. And this rate, whatís the point of having a union when they donít do anything to fight for the pilots they represent?
We need better reps in position to fight battles and not be so passive.

Greensideup
12-11-2018, 09:25 PM
So...the union is happy with the grievance process working? The company intentionally violated the contract for years. No back pay. No monetary award. Nothing. And the union is happy with this settlement? I sat at the top of the fo list for 2+ years when i should have been in that 305 and im getting nothing?! Costing me over $100k. The only thing this nutless union is good for is putting a positive spin on everything.

Haha nutless! The entire settlement is bull**** because we get NOTHING! easily could prove monetary losses, especially if you are a captain now, they wouldnít have the argument ďwell we canít prove who is owed what because people could fail trainingĒ

Greensideup
12-11-2018, 09:31 PM
Taking the FPL and resume building, thatís the union at the regional level.

pitchtrim
12-12-2018, 10:30 AM
Anyone know the exact number of captains required to hit 305?

DarkSideMoon
12-12-2018, 10:36 AM
Anyone know the exact number of captains required to hit 305?

My rough math says something like 50 new captain vacancies, obviously attrition factors in as to how many actually upgrade.

CanWeGetTheLeft
12-12-2018, 12:13 PM
My rough math says something like 50 new captain vacancies, obviously attrition factors in as to how many actually upgrade.

290 captains currently on FLICA, including those awarded it on the last vacancy.

DarkSideMoon
12-12-2018, 12:54 PM
290 captains currently on FLICA, including those awarded it on the last vacancy.

Does that include management pilots? I added together all the captain slots (filled and vacant) on the last vacancy announcement and it totaled something like 260.

CanWeGetTheLeft
12-12-2018, 01:02 PM
Does that include management pilots? I added together all the captain slots (filled and vacant) on the last vacancy announcement and it totaled something like 260.

Yes. Includes management pilots and people on long term leave. My understanding from talking with my union reps is that that if you are on the seniority list, you count as one of the 305.

Iíd love to be wrong. I like your methodology a lot more, I just donít know that itís how they are interpreting this.

DarkSideMoon
12-12-2018, 01:17 PM
Yes. Includes management pilots and people on long term leave. My understanding from talking with my union reps is that that if you are on the seniority list, you count as one of the 305.

Iíd love to be wrong. I like your methodology a lot more, I just donít know that itís how they are interpreting this.
Good point. Kind of a pathetic win if we only get 15 captain positions out of the whole thing.

DonConsult67
12-13-2018, 10:43 AM
"This whole thing shows me that A. The company doesnít give a flying **** about the contract. B. The company will continue to willfully violate the contract because itíll take at least two years for the grievance process to take place and will result in no monetary penalties. Just something to keep in mind for future TAís. Without ironclad language..."


And what did you expect from this, or any Regional Airline ???


The industry's business model and legal strategy is based upon over-promising and under-delivering, making illusory promises wrapped around vagueness and fine-print caveats, and pushing the limits, knowing the penalty, civil sanction, or ultimate expense, assuming they're are even caught (and the catchers have the resources to pursue it), is far less than the profits made by their transgressions.


As for your "ironclad language", in contract law there's no such thing, least of all in the aviation industry. Regional airline contracts, CPP's, "flows", employment bonuses, scope clauses, hiring or interview assurances, etc. aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the entities themselves have a long track record of not being truthful or trustworthy. You need not look far and, even then, Chapter 11 merely enriches the airlines at the expense of the employees who take the risk.


When will the masses learn neither your regional airline employer, or its incestuous-wth-management "union" simply don't care about honoring what they promised yesterday ~ tomorrow's another day and they can play the game again.

DarkSideMoon
12-13-2018, 12:58 PM
And what did you expect from this, or any Regional Airline ???


The industry's business model and legal strategy is based upon over-promising and under-delivering, making illusory promises wrapped around vagueness and fine-print caveats, and pushing the limits, knowing the penalty, civil sanction, or ultimate expense, assuming they're are even caught (and the catchers have the resources to pursue it), is far less than the profits made by their transgressions.


As for your "ironclad language", in contract law there's no such thing, least of all in the aviation industry. Regional airline contracts, CPP's, "flows", employment bonuses, scope clauses, hiring or interview assurances, etc. aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the entities themselves have a long track record of not being truthful or trustworthy. You need not look far and, even then, Chapter 11 merely enriches the airlines at the expense of the employees who take the risk.


When will the masses learn neither your regional airline employer, or its incestuous-wth-management "union" simply don't care about honoring what they promised yesterday ~ tomorrow's another day and they can play the game again.

Does your angry rant have a salient point or some sort of call to action? Iíd love to be flying for Delta or United right now but thereís no better path right now than grinding it out at a regional.

Clearer language would expedite the grievance process. We have far too many loopholes in our contract that assume the company will act in a fair and equitable manner. At the very least it wouldnít hurt anything.

DonConsult67
12-15-2018, 10:52 AM
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.

Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.

Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.

Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.

Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???

Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.

And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".

Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.

The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.

DarkSideMoon
12-15-2018, 10:57 AM
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.

Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.

Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.

Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.

Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???

Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.

And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".

Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.

The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.

So besides being angry whatís your point?

sailingfun
12-15-2018, 04:50 PM
Angry ??? Hardly. But accurate on all counts.

Truthful ??? On-Point, and the industry's history will validate every point I've made.

Rant ??? No way...just read the bankruptcy case files of the Delta's, United's, and American's everybody fantasizes about working for.

Interestingly, the very system most people complain about here is the very system created by the Delta's, United's and American's, but for some odd reason, most of those same people aspire to eventually work for them.

Again, just read the bankruptcy files of airlines and you'll learn how they REALLY treat employees and how CLEAR their one-sided and "ironclad" language can be. How many bankruptcies has Doug Parker been intimately involved with (and how many employees, creditors, lessors, etc. got screwed) ???

Finally, there is a reason that, unlike other industries which executives and upper management move laterally [that is, from being CEO, CFO, Upper Management, etc. of one industrial company to another], no such lateral movement has taken place out of the airline industry ~ and for good reason...no reputable company wants an executive who was made toxic by aviation, aviation culture, or who helped run their employer into bankruptcy court, often more than once.

And those are the folks you expect will "act in a fair an equitable manner".

Dream on...and BTW, ask the thousands of former Delta, United, USAir, Continental, Braniff, etc. guys about the promised "ironclad" contract pensions and "equitable" promises made to them - their retirement income, earned over a lifetime, is now being paid at 30-40 cents on the dollar by the Government's Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation; in short, compared to what they were promised in their "ironclad contracts" by those acting in a "fair and equitable manner", they're on Welfare.

The world is round and the industry will be back there again one day, and it will start with the extraneous regional airlines, businesses who refuse to learn you can't make money, over the long term, doing someone else's work.

Delta pilots received substantial cash in multiple buckets in addition to the PBGC money. Most should see 80% or more of their earned and accrued benefit at the time of the chapter 11 filing.

DonConsult67
12-17-2018, 03:18 AM
"Most should see 80% or more of their earned and accrued benefit at the time of the chapter 11 filing."


Regardless, it's still not 100% of what they agreed-to in their "ironclad contract", which is the point.


So, let's do this ~ you work for me for 30-40 years under the auspices of an "ironclad contract" with a "bargain in good faith" company. You take pay and benefit concessions when times are rough to keep the company alive (and paying you something, not nothing). When times are good, you accept scraps compared to management who made no sacrifices. Because you believed in the company, you invested one-quarter to one-half of your retirement fund in company stock (an issue left out of the discussion). As the company hit bad times, you accepted more and more concessions, for the same reasons (but management made none). Then, the bankruptcy court said your employment contract was worthless, you will be forced to take a pay cut, your benefits will be slashed, and that pension is now being pawned off to the PBGC who will dribble and drabble it to you, at their convenience when the dust settles...oh, and that stock you invested in, it's worthless now.


Sounds like a great deal, doesn't it?


Or this - next week, cash your paycheck and on your way out of the bank, give 20% of the Gross Pay (not the net the teller gave you, but the higher Gross), to the nearest trash can. Live on what's left...forever.


The point is 80% isn't 100% and too many in this business accept this sort of nonsense because the AA's, DL's, and UA's have made it the "new norm". There's nothing "norm" about it ~ it's called fraud and deceit, but because the wonderful unions, and MEC's, and union committees have done such a wonderful job [for themselves], it is the new norm because you, whether you know it or not, agreed to it.


Plan B ???

FollowMe
12-17-2018, 04:08 AM
https://66.media.tumblr.com/bea0bbe9cfa6e8c91e2490c5c46d1904/tumblr_muzx5prWVg1rkluo3o2_500.gif

stroopwaffle
12-17-2018, 09:11 AM
It's the angry Lego captain from living the dream.

"my money, MY MONEY"



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