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View Full Version : Min Day pay vs Average day pay


seafeye
12-11-2018, 08:17 AM
Iím thinking average day pay is selling ourselves short. Just saying.


QuagmireGiggity
12-11-2018, 08:38 AM
and? Present thou argument.

Saabs
12-11-2018, 09:00 AM
Iím thinking average day pay is selling ourselves short. Just saying.

If youíre gonna argue something at least be clear about it. Do you dislike average duty day or average calendar day pay?

From there, please proceed.

Iím very thankful that we no longer have average duty day anymore. It was embarrassing that we had 10 day off per month lines built at a legacy.


Covfefe
12-11-2018, 09:55 AM
If you’re gonna argue something at least be clear about it. Do you dislike average duty day or average calendar day pay?

From there, please proceed.

I’m very thankful that we no longer have average duty day anymore. It was embarrassing that we had 10 day off per month lines built at a legacy.

I think he means he’s for just a straight minimum day. No “average” anything.

Edit...

3 day trip:
Day 1: 8hrs
Day 2: 0hrs
Day 3: 8hrs

ACD credits 16:00. [True]Min Cal Day credits 21:15.

Laker24
12-11-2018, 10:03 AM
Average calendar day is better than what we had. Minimum day is superior. I believe they have that at FedEx. It would drive a lot more hiring than our antiquated IMAX system. Whether or not the negotiating committee will ask for or deliver a minimum day is the big question.

mainlineAF
12-11-2018, 10:11 AM
Average calendar day is better than what we had. Minimum day is superior. I believe they have that at FedEx. It would drive a lot more hiring than our antiquated IMAX system. Whether or not the negotiating committee will ask for or deliver a minimum day is the big question.



Fedex has a min day but i believe itís based on 24 hours, not calendar days.

So if you leave at noon on Monday and get back at noon on Tuesday it would pay 6 hours.

Under our current ACD that trip would pay 10:30

Laker24
12-11-2018, 10:24 AM
Good to know. So our system would probably actually work better for a mostly domestic operation.

FLPS30GRDWN
12-11-2018, 11:54 AM
Fedex has a min day but i believe itís based on 24 hours, not calendar days.

So if you leave at noon on Monday and get back at noon on Tuesday it would pay 6 hours.

Under our current ACD that trip would pay 10:30



Indeed. Itís structured around the hub turns. I peeked at their contract some time ago and I wanna say the clock ran around 2am hub turns or something. Explain our 10:30 redeye turns to a FedEx guy and youíll have to help them pick up their jaw. Theyíd love that.

seafeye
12-11-2018, 12:11 PM
I think he means heís for just a straight minimum day. No ďaverageĒ anything.

Edit...

3 day trip:
Day 1: 8hrs
Day 2: 0hrs
Day 3: 8hrs

ACD credits 16:00. [True]Min Cal Day credits 21:15.


Exactly. In this case the current system is worth nothing.

The 5 days trips are perfect examples.
The current rig means we get nothing for the 24 hour sit.

mainlineAF
12-11-2018, 12:13 PM
Exactly. In this case the current system is worth nothing.



The 5 days trips are perfect examples.

The current rig means we get nothing for the 24 hour sit.



Youíre getting 26:15 for a 5 day trip with an early release on day 5. Thatís hardly nothing.

Thatís not saying that minimum calendar day wouldnít be much better. It would. But our rigs are currently industry standard.

seafeye
12-11-2018, 12:48 PM
It is nothing. Itís zero. Take away the trip rig and the pay is exactly the same.
We get what we fly and nothing more.
We get released on day 5 early yes. But thatís because we were pulling an all nighter.
Iíd rather just fly day 4 and make the same money. Itís healthier too.

sherpster
12-11-2018, 01:10 PM
People who say ACD wasnt a gain must be in the top 10% or something.

Name User
12-11-2018, 01:50 PM
MCD had negatives too, notably the effect of earlier starts and later finishes.

Flying a red eye sucks. At least now you end your "day on" at 6 or 8am. Not too bad for a "day on".

Andrew_VT
12-11-2018, 02:31 PM
People who say ACD wasnt a gain must be in the top 10% or something.

Top 50+%. Senior enough not to have to worry about red-eyes (unless they wanted them). Everyone else basically paid for the elimination of the junior red-eye lines.

QuagmireGiggity
12-11-2018, 02:37 PM
Youíre getting 26:15 for a 5 day trip with an early release on day 5. Thatís hardly nothing.

Thatís not saying that minimum calendar day wouldnít be much better. It would. But our rigs are currently industry standard.
Early release?

mainlineAF
12-11-2018, 02:39 PM
Top 50+%. Senior enough not to have to worry about red-eyes (unless they wanted them). Everyone else basically paid for the elimination of the junior red-eye lines.



So you would rather go back to our old rigs then?

Adlerdriver
12-11-2018, 02:41 PM
Fedex has a min day but i believe it’s based on 24 hours, not calendar days.

So if you leave at noon on Monday and get back at noon on Tuesday it would pay 6 hours.

Under our current ACD that trip would pay 10:30
Not trying to hijack your thread, but.....a quick word from FedEx. :D
Yes, most of our domestic trips result in about 6:00 pay for a 24 hour snapshot (never less). Of course, if block was higher, we would get that. Actually, our trip rig is 3.75:1, so 24 hours is 6.4 CH. Our pay system really doesn't look at a calendar the way yours does. A 21 hour TAFB hour trip that leaves at 0200 and returns the same day at 2300 pays the same as one that leaves at 1500 and returns the next morning, spanning two days.

Looks bad from a pax guy's perspective dealing with calendar days. However, a few hours after getting back to base in the morning, we start the very same trip again for another 18-22 hours TAFB. Can you start another 2-day trip in the afternoon on the same day you finished one that morning? I don't think we could when I worked at UAL, but it's been a while.

We string 5 of those trips together in a single week and the end result is about the same as you guys flying three of those 2-day trips you mention above back to back. Leave Monday afternoon, back the next morning, rinse repeat all week until blocking in Sat morning at 0830. 5 individual trips, but effectively a 6-day trip with no hotels required between trips that pays no less than 30:00 CH - possibly more depending on block time. Sounds like you guys would get 31:30 for the same basic footprint.

Lots of iterations to our various trip types, but you really can't look at them in a vacuum from a passenger carrier perspective without some context. Sorry for the detour. Carry on.

drinksonme
12-11-2018, 03:15 PM
MCD had negatives too, notably the effect of earlier starts and later finishes.

Flying a red eye sucks. At least now you end your "day on" at 6 or 8am. Not too bad for a "day on".

What are you talking about. You mean IF the trips ends as a red eye with an early arrival right? Cause thatís not really the norm for most bases. Getting done at 6 to 8 am that is. Look at bid packets from time to time, early end to a trip isnít the norm

Andrew_VT
12-11-2018, 05:12 PM
So you would rather go back to our old rigs then?

No, because overall the rig was a $$ gain. We had leverage which we spent (and won't get back) along with giving up our scheduling grievances.

For me personally though, if I was selfish, yes. I moved to base to spend more nights at home. I hadn't flown anything longer than a 2-day trip in 6 months (I'm 40-45% bid status). Now I hardly get anything less than a 3-day.

cocktimusprime
12-15-2018, 01:57 PM
I agree ACD was a gain, but Iím surprised APA didnít push for minimum calendar day. APA doesnít care about quality of jobs, simply the number of jobs- minimum calendar day wouldíve gotten more. Instead of enhancing the quality of the jobs already on property, they prefer to increase the sheer number of jobs in an attempt to further fill their coffers . . .

Hindenburg
12-15-2018, 03:05 PM
Are there any guaranteed monthly hours or some sort of basic salary at AA?

viper548
12-15-2018, 03:51 PM
Are there any guaranteed monthly hours or some sort of basic salary at AA?


Long call reserve is 73 hours. Short call is 76.

FLPS30GRDWN
12-15-2018, 04:02 PM
Not trying to hijack your thread, but.....a quick word from FedEx. :D
Yes, most of our domestic trips result in about 6:00 pay for a 24 hour snapshot (never less). Of course, if block was higher, we would get that. Actually, our trip rig is 3.75:1, so 24 hours is 6.4 CH. Our pay system really doesn't look at a calendar the way yours does. A 21 hour TAFB hour trip that leaves at 0200 and returns the same day at 2300 pays the same as one that leaves at 1500 and returns the next morning, spanning two days.

Looks bad from a pax guy's perspective dealing with calendar days. However, a few hours after getting back to base in the morning, we start the very same trip again for another 18-22 hours TAFB. Can you start another 2-day trip in the afternoon on the same day you finished one that morning? I don't think we could when I worked at UAL, but it's been a while.

We string 5 of those trips together in a single week and the end result is about the same as you guys flying three of those 2-day trips you mention above back to back. Leave Monday afternoon, back the next morning, rinse repeat all week until blocking in Sat morning at 0830. 5 individual trips, but effectively a 6-day trip with no hotels required between trips that pays no less than 30:00 CH - possibly more depending on block time. Sounds like you guys would get 31:30 for the same basic footprint.

Lots of iterations to our various trip types, but you really can't look at them in a vacuum from a passenger carrier perspective without some context. Sorry for the detour. Carry on.



No thread jack at all. Thanks for chiming in. I know we have new hires that are still weighing out a move to FedEx so your input is very much appreciated. Feel free to jump in any time and thanks for what you do.

Sliceback
12-15-2018, 04:49 PM
I agree ACD was a gain, but Iím surprised APA didnít push for minimum calendar day. APA doesnít care about quality of jobs, simply the number of jobs- minimum calendar day wouldíve gotten more. Instead of enhancing the quality of the jobs already on property, they prefer to increase the sheer number of jobs in an attempt to further fill their coffers . . .

How would MCD created more jobs? Think the MCD would have been 5:15?

Someone posted previously "this place stinks. Even my regional had MCD." Eventually we found out what it was - 3 hrs (2??) and no other duty trip rigs. It might have been a lousy deal, and paid out worse than the rigs he was complaining about, but he got to say "we had it."

What other airlines have MCD? What is it and how does it pay out? The APA contract comparison seems to indicate that everyone's trigger really is the ACD or duty rigs.

Sliceback
12-15-2018, 04:54 PM
Are there any guaranteed monthly hours or some sort of basic salary at AA?

77 hrs for lineholders? ALV of 84 +/- 7 (per the contract comparison)

Take the hourly rate x 73 or 76 per month and that's the reserve pay.

Easy math - reserve is roughly 90% of the hourly rate x 1,000. $100/hr = $90,000 a year

Lineholders typically get 1000-1100 hrs of pay. So $100/hr = $100-110K.

Hindenburg
12-15-2018, 05:21 PM
Sliceback
Got it! Thanks

Cheddar
12-15-2018, 05:36 PM
Reserve should be 5 hours at 15 days for 75 hrs/month. ACD pretty much assured that anyway. No need to be on an 18 day leash. LC/SC paid the same, just seniority based in the bid. LC to SC conversions should pay an hour extra with A1 pass and airport hotel, and only 2x/month max unless proffered.

Also tradeable reserve blocks and flying into any day off is PR. Reserve should also be allowed to p/u any trips within 48 hours of start for OG. But thatís also predicated on MU for LHís at 150% outside of 48 prior to trip start (or DOTC/RAS). Also institute the aggressive p/u clause.

Everything should also be electronic and transparent within mobileCCI concerning crew scheduling. With these and a real, pilot centric trip trade system (there are tons of other companies that allow this Ďfreedomí) this place would hum with efficiency.

I know, I know... that would be industry leading in some respects and forward thinking!


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Al Czervik
12-15-2018, 06:29 PM
Reserve should be 5 hours at 15 days for 75 hrs/month. ACD pretty much assured that anyway. No need to be on an 18 day leash. LC/SC paid the same, just seniority based in the bid. LC to SC conversions should pay an hour extra with A1 pass and airport hotel, and only 2x/month max unless proffered.

Also tradeable reserve blocks and flying into any day off is PR. Reserve should also be allowed to p/u any trips within 48 hours of start for OG. But thatís also predicated on MU for LHís at 150% outside of 48 prior to trip start (or DOTC/RAS). Also institute the aggressive p/u clause.

Everything should also be electronic and transparent within mobileCCI concerning crew scheduling. With these and a real, pilot centric trip trade system (there are tons of other companies that allow this Ďfreedomí) this place would hum with efficiency.

I know, I know... that would be industry leading in some respects and forward thinking!


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Thatís interesting. I never bid reserve and havenít though much about that since ACD. I looked at 3XP and saw a line that had 12 off 18 on. At 5:15 thatís ~94íish hours. How would that work? Youíre available to the company all 18 but they can only use you up to 85hours/15 days? Youíre guaranteed not to work all 18 right?

PRS Guitars
12-15-2018, 06:34 PM
Thatís interesting. I never bid reserve and havenít though much about that since ACD. I looked at 3XP and saw a line that had 12 off 18 on. At 5:15 thatís ~94íish hours. How would that work? Youíre available to the company all 18 but they can only use you up to 85hours/15 days? Youíre guaranteed not to work all 18 right?

More like only available 15 days, and paid 5:15 per day for a 78:45 guarantee. A dayís pay for a dayís work, 5:15 for training as well, and 5:15 per day of vacation.

RhinoBallAuto
12-15-2018, 07:10 PM
More like only available 15 days, and paid 5:15 per day for a 78:45 guarantee. A dayís pay for a dayís work, 5:15 for training as well, and 5:15 per day of vacation.

This is the drumbeat of a true ILC.... we should be banging away at this for at least the next 12 months.:cool:

Cheddar
12-16-2018, 06:50 AM
More like only available 15 days, and paid 5:15 per day for a 78:45 guarantee. A dayís pay for a dayís work, 5:15 for training as well, and 5:15 per day of vacation.



Thatís even better, but I donít think any company will ever pay ACD rates for guys like me working 1-2 trips a month.

Donít get me wrong, that would be fantastic! 5 hours for 15 seems logical and easy, especially if you use it with p/u over guarantee within a 48 hr period before DOTC/RAS opens up. Flying gets done and reserve statuses can be minimized saving manning in a manning critical environment.

Iím all for hiring folks and increasing the need for manning, but we need to get things better before APA worries about Ďsaving future jobs.í Weíre hiring 1000 a year for at least the next 10...


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PRS Guitars
12-16-2018, 11:08 AM
Thatís even better, but I donít think any company will ever pay ACD rates for guys like me working 1-2 trips a month.

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Im sitting reserve this month and barely flying, itís great. But at the end of the day, we are on call 18 days. Even if we donít fly, we are still working. The company is essentially paying us a retainer for when they need us, so we are working. We all need to think this way.

Cheddar
12-16-2018, 11:12 AM
Im sitting reserve this month and barely flying, itís great. But at the end of the day, we are on call 18 days. Even if we donít fly, we are still working. The company is essentially paying us a retainer for when they need us, so we are working. We all need to think this way.



Completely agree! Thatís why I think 15 days at or [email protected] close to ACD rates.


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Dobbs18
12-16-2018, 11:26 AM
Thatís interesting. I never bid reserve and havenít though much about that since ACD. I looked at 3XP and saw a line that had 12 off 18 on. At 5:15 thatís ~94íish hours. How would that work? Youíre available to the company all 18 but they can only use you up to 85hours/15 days? Youíre guaranteed not to work all 18 right?

I think you are correct. 5.25 x 16 days is 84hrs...that is assuming that everyday you work is the bare minimum of 5:15 a day, it could be more, which is likely, so you really could be available to the company for even less than 16 days. As soon as you hit 79.75 credit for the month you can be done. So in a 30 day month you are guaranteed 14 days off and 15 in a 31 day...so that is a gain of 2 and 3 days off from our old work rules. You are still scheduled only 12 and 13 days off on your RSV line.

Floobs
12-16-2018, 11:50 AM
Iím thinking average day pay is selling ourselves short. Just saying.

It was a mistake, all the trips suck now. It really only helped a small % of people and hurt half the airline.

PRS Guitars
12-16-2018, 01:41 PM
It was a mistake, all the trips suck now. It really only helped a small % of people and hurt half the airline.

Speak for yourself, depends on your bid status I guess, but there are good trips in LAX still. I have 2 17+ hour 3 days next month, 1 18:30+ 3 day, all easily commutable on both ends. And an easy 4 day, also commutable.

I care about 3 things at my seniority. Days off (weekends and holidays) commutability, and credit density.

RhinoBallAuto
12-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Speak for yourself, depends on your bid status....

I care about 3 things at my seniority.

Your bid status AND your seniority... Out of curiosity, what's yours roughly?

PRS Guitars
12-16-2018, 07:01 PM
Your bid status AND your seniority... Out of curiosity, what's yours roughly?

You are correct. Iím low 40% in my seat. Been here almost 5 years.

Itís all about managing your own expectations. At about 70% I found that I could get weekends off on long call (CLT at the time). Thatís mostly what I did for a year or so. At about 55% (LAX) I was able to hold weekends off as a line holder, mostly commutable, with some gives on the trip credit (ie min time trips). Itís getting better and better, and I am definitely a fan of PBS.

Iíve seen guys on C&R complain about working weekends, Iíll look up the PBS report, only to find they are 90%...what do you expect? Good news, once they hit the above numbers (in a big bid status) theyíll probably never work a weekend again (unless they choose to).

RhinoBallAuto
12-16-2018, 07:32 PM
You are correct. Iím low 40% in my seat. Been here almost 5 years.

Itís all about managing your own expectations. At about 70% I found that I could get weekends off on long call (CLT at the time). Thatís mostly what I did for a year or so. At about 55% (LAX) I was able to hold weekends off as a line holder, mostly commutable, with some gives on the trip credit (ie min time trips). Itís getting better and better, and I am definitely a fan of PBS.

Iíve seen guys on C&R complain about working weekends, Iíll look up the PBS report, only to find they are 90%...what do you expect? Good news, once they hit the above numbers (in a big bid status) theyíll probably never work a weekend again (unless they choose to).

I think you nailed it...

Floobs
12-16-2018, 07:45 PM
Speak for yourself, depends on your bid status I guess, but there are good trips in LAX still. I have 2 17+ hour 3 days next month, 1 18:30+ 3 day, all easily commutable on both ends. And an easy 4 day, also commutable.

I care about 3 things at my seniority. Days off (weekends and holidays) commutability, and credit density.

How many of them have red-eyes?

PRS Guitars
12-16-2018, 07:50 PM
How many of them have red-eyes?

The 4 day ends in a trailing red eye. It was in my layer 3, I actually like those trips, and they were created after we got ACD. The 3 day trips are without red eyes. There are a metric crap ton of red eyes in LAX, thatís for sure. Thatís not changing.

FLPS30GRDWN
12-16-2018, 08:05 PM
It was a mistake, all the trips suck now. It really only helped a small % of people and hurt half the airline.



Thatís one opinion...

My experience has been otherwise.

We could do better and we did. ACD is a breath of fresh air into a moldy stagnant pieced together contract. I seriously doubt claims to a loss of QOL caused by ACD. I make it a point to ask everyone I fly with about their ACD experience and I have yet to sit next to someone whoís unhappy with the results.

If ACD haters actually exist on the line I look forward to hearing your points and sharing mine. But even then, itís a mute point because we GAINED it and were living with it from here on unless something better presents itself.

seafeye
12-17-2018, 02:44 PM
I think you are correct. 5.25 x 16 days is 84hrs...that is assuming that everyday you work is the bare minimum of 5:15 a day, it could be more, which is likely, so you really could be available to the company for even less than 16 days. As soon as you hit 79.75 credit for the month you can be done. So in a 30 day month you are guaranteed 14 days off and 15 in a 31 day...so that is a gain of 2 and 3 days off from our old work rules. You are still scheduled only 12 and 13 days off on your RSV line.


I had looked up a "Fair" way of paying reserves. And it goes like this:

Doug P. Comes to us and asks us to sit on call (Lets stick to short call) for 18-19 days a month. In exchange for this resource he is willing to pay us 76 hours for the month.

If a pilot gets called out and flys just the 1 day (8 hrs). He/she is not going to get anything above the 76 hours. But the problem with this is that the pilot did over and above what Doug P had asked him to do for the month. If you divide the days worked by 76 hours. Anything over 4:20 would be working for free.

So lets pretend we all get paid 4:20 per day to sit on reserve.
You go out and fly a 2 hour day then you get the min day pay of 5:15.
You fly 8 hours and you get 8 hours of pay. Now you will break guarantee. You will not get the 8 hours plus the 4:20 reserve pay. You will get the min day pay or what you flew. So if you flew 8 hours you will get 3:40 over guarantee.

This is the only way to ensure that all reserves are paid fairly. And to ensure we are not flying for free. It also prevents the company from putting 50% of the pilots on reserve. A line pilot or a reserve pilot who flys 5,6,7,8 or even 9 hours should be paid the same. A reserve pilot should not be reimbursed less for the same hours flown.

FLPS30GRDWN
12-17-2018, 03:49 PM
I had looked up a "Fair" way of paying reserves. And it goes like this:



Doug P. Comes to us and asks us to sit on call (Lets stick to short call) for 18-19 days a month. In exchange for this resource he is willing to pay us 76 hours for the month.



If a pilot gets called out and flys just the 1 day (8 hrs). He/she is not going to get anything above the 76 hours. But the problem with this is that the pilot did over and above what Doug P had asked him to do for the month. If you divide the days worked by 76 hours. Anything over 4:20 would be working for free.



So lets pretend we all get paid 4:20 per day to sit on reserve.

You go out and fly a 2 hour day then you get the min day pay of 5:15.

You fly 8 hours and you get 8 hours of pay. Now you will break guarantee. You will not get the 8 hours plus the 4:20 reserve pay. You will get the min day pay or what you flew. So if you flew 8 hours you will get 3:40 over guarantee.



This is the only way to ensure that all reserves are paid fairly. And to ensure we are not flying for free. It also prevents the company from putting 50% of the pilots on reserve. A line pilot or a reserve pilot who flys 5,6,7,8 or even 9 hours should be paid the same. A reserve pilot should not be reimbursed less for the same hours flown.



I like this. Pilots taken care of, incentives the company to work more efficiently. A reserve pay to standby and be ready (pay for time) and then once youíre assigned a trip it pays like any line-holder. Iíd vote for that

Sliceback
12-17-2018, 04:01 PM
Airport reserve? DOA.

PRS Guitars
12-17-2018, 08:51 PM
Airport reserve? DOA.

Heís not recommending airport reserve. Itís an unorthodoxy way to pay reserves, which will make it DOA (Iíd be for it by the way, just think it goes over the APAís head).

Basically, you sit reserve as normal. If you donít get a trip, you earn 4:03/4:22 for the day. If you get a trip you earn the greater of 5:15 or block for each day of the trip. End of the month, worst case (or best) is you donít fly and earn 73/76. If you are long call and fly 10 days at an average of 5:15 a day you earn 85 hours (73 + 12). At least this is my interpretation.

RhinoBallAuto
12-18-2018, 04:50 AM
Heís not recommending airport reserve. Itís an unorthodoxy way to pay reserves, which will make it DOA (Iíd be for it by the way, just think it goes over the APAís head).

Basically, you sit reserve as normal. If you donít get a trip, you earn 4:03/4:22 for the day. If you get a trip you earn the greater of 5:15 or block for each day of the trip. End of the month, worst case (or best) is you donít fly and earn 73/76. If you are long call and fly 10 days at an average of 5:15 a day you earn 85 hours (73 + 12). At least this is my interpretation.

It's essentially a daily guarantee

seafeye
12-18-2018, 05:48 AM
Heís not recommending airport reserve. Itís an unorthodoxy way to pay reserves, which will make it DOA (Iíd be for it by the way, just think it goes over the APAís head).

Basically, you sit reserve as normal. If you donít get a trip, you earn 4:03/4:22 for the day. If you get a trip you earn the greater of 5:15 or block for each day of the trip. End of the month, worst case (or best) is you donít fly and earn 73/76. If you are long call and fly 10 days at an average of 5:15 a day you earn 85 hours (73 + 12). At least this is my interpretation.

Thatís exactly what Iím getting at. Itís more fair of a system.
Two pilots are on reserve the same Saturday Sunday.
Pilot 1 gets called out and flys on Saturday, 8 hours.
Pilot 2 gets called for a 2 day. Say 1 hour each day.

Under the current system Pilot 1 would get 8 hours credit for the two days.
Pilot 2 gets 10:30.

Who did more work?

In the adjusted system
Pilot 1 would get 8 hours for the 1st day and regular reserve pay for the Sunday if he wasnít used. Total 12:22

Pilot 2ís pay would not change. Min day pay for each day. 10:30.

It just seems more logical to look at what each pilot does per day rather than per month.

Cheddar
12-23-2018, 02:38 AM
At first I scoffed at this idea because, unfortunately I read through it quickly and didnít really grasp the meat of it.

As far as the company is concerned I can see one glaring negative: our infamous ďIT issues.Ē Any adjustments go through pen and ink changes in pay comp (no kidding, adjustments are STILL done by Ďhandí). The company will ad ZERO effort, no matter how mutually beneficial - and I think this could be considering how they hate to see pilot inactivity - if it costs one more dime in cubicle man hours.

The ad hoc next gen scheduling committee is tasked with entertaining novel and initiative ideas that are mutually beneficial for us and the company. The goal - as I understand it - is to exploit the companyís desire to innovate pilot scheduling and bring the IT system into the 21st century in order to lower costs. There are so many good things that can come of this - mostly transparency from CS - but it will also allow us to program many innovative ways for us to have a better QWL at zero cost to the company as the programmers can just execute mutually agreeable language into the system with ZERO training or influence from pilot hating mid level management - (Iím talking to you Alana!!! But have a Merry Christmas anyway).

Despite all that and ANYWAY, this is a really interesting and novel idea that deserves to be explored. Have you sent it in as a soundoff or emailed anyone in the next gen scheduling ad hoc committee?




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seafeye
12-23-2018, 09:28 AM
Well thank you for reading it. It shows intelligence for someone to open their mind and see a different point of view.
Iíve had captains laugh at the idea. Same ones that laugh that we deserve 1.5x for working holidays.
But the reserve captains actually see value in this. Reserves will finally get paid ďmore fairlyĒ under this system.
An 8 hour day will finally be worth 8 hours.

I flew with a union rep. He didnít give me the time to explain how it would work. Therefore his canned response was ďthe company would never go for itĒ

iHateAMR
12-23-2018, 06:07 PM
Well thank you for reading it. It shows intelligence for someone to open their mind and see a different point of view.
Iíve had captains laugh at the idea. Same ones that laugh that we deserve 1.5x for working holidays.
But the reserve captains actually see value in this. Reserves will finally get paid ďmore fairlyĒ under this system.
An 8 hour day will finally be worth 8 hours.

I flew with a union rep. He didnít give me the time to explain how it would work. Therefore his canned response was ďthe company would never go for itĒ

That union rep may know the company much better than you thru experience.

Whatís stopping the company from splitting up your hypothetical 8 hour day between two or more reserve pilots with a combination of deadheads?

UPTme
12-23-2018, 08:04 PM
That union rep may know the company much better than you thru experience.

Whatís stopping the company from splitting up your hypothetical 8 hour day between two or more reserve pilots with a combination of deadheads?

Then 2 reserves would each be paid 5:15 in his world....

Dobbs18
12-24-2018, 04:48 AM
Then 2 reserves would each be paid 5:15 in his world....

and then would "cost" the company 10:30 for the trip with 2 rsvs being burned instead of 1 rsv at a cost of 8hrs...I don't think they would split it up but i also don't think scheduling is that smart to even begin to think of stuff like that.

Cheddar
12-24-2018, 06:05 AM
They havenít been that smart at all. When I was on the bus, awaiting PM on a trip I knew they had no reserve coverage for - I watched them break it up into 3 different 31xxx sequences with 2 OOB DHís, and one of the new sequences STILL went to PM (albeit a different base because that part of the sequence went to CLT)! 2 paying pax bumped on oversold flights, 2 EXTRA reserve pilots burned for 1-2 legs each AND eventually a CLT got called out for a turn with a DH return - bumping another paying pax.

All to show that they could do it without paying PM. [emoji1749]

If the company canít get away from IDIOT middle mis-management, we are doomed.

Merry Christmas!


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450knotOffice
12-25-2018, 12:10 PM
Spot on! With that said, just about every large company suffers from the same middle management incompetence, so weíre not really unique in that respect.

FLPS30GRDWN
12-26-2018, 09:16 AM
Spot on! With that said, just about every large company suffers from the same middle management incompetence, so weíre not really unique in that respect.



But I got a degree in business management! I know what Iím doing!



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