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View Full Version : Joining with a juvenile record


DABAviator
12-12-2018, 08:06 AM
Hello, I am in college now getting my bachelors in aviation, when I graduate I want to fly for the Air Force reserve or air national guard. (I am already a private pilot and will be a CFI by the time I graduate) I know I will have to go through the militaries flight school from the start regardless. The only thing I am worried about is a misdemeanor charge I have from when I was 13, adjudication was withheld so I was not convicted, and I got probation for 6 months. I have talked to an active duty recruiter who said he would work with me if I scored very well on all the qualifying test, and I have no other issues besides the 1 misdemeanor and I have 1 traffic ticket. But other then that nothing and by the time I graduate I will be 20 meaning the misdemeanor will be from 7+ years ago. Do you guys all think this will make it hard for me to get a pilot slot in the guard or reserves? And will it help that I will already be a commercial pilot and CFI, or does that not really have any effect? Thanks


cheap
12-12-2018, 08:49 AM
Your record wonít have any impact. If a recruiter said he can work with it, any other qualifiers he puts on it after are irrelevant. Waivers arenít tied to test scores in any way and probably arenít required for something that was adjudicated (and sealed?) anyways. You might be able to spin it into a positive in your essay as the turning point in your life where you found purpose and committed to your current career trajectory.

Being a CFI or commercial ticket holder will make you more competitive for the Guard/Reserves. The hours would help your PCSM score for active duty as well.


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rickair7777
12-12-2018, 09:42 AM
Probably not an issue, assuming it was nothing really heavy. Had a good buddy who did a recruiter tour. They could work with juvie shoplifting, simple assault, vanadlism, *maybe* drug possession, etc. Could not work with weapons charges, sexual stuff, drug dealing, weird stuff, etc.

Also I've heard online crime, hacking, of any sort is no-go these days (security clearance disqual).

But sealed, expunged, juvenile, charges dismissed is NOT exempt from DoD (or other government agency) scrutiny. Everybody who joins in any capacity today must be eligible for a security clearance, and they need to know your history including any arrests and juvie stuff. Just because the state sealed it will not keep you out of federal prison if you get caught lying about it.


sailingfun
12-15-2018, 04:04 AM
Make sure you are talking with a officer selection recruiter not a standard enlisted recruiter. The only issue might be in getting a TS clearance.

cheap
12-15-2018, 04:20 AM
Make sure you are talking with a officer selection recruiter not a standard enlisted recruiter. The only issue might be in getting a TS clearance.



Do they have those again? They were a thing when I commissioned ~10 years ago but my recruiter friend informed me a few years after that that they did away with officer accessions recruiters and consolidated all recruiting together.


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BeatNavy
12-15-2018, 08:16 AM
Do they have those again? They were a thing when I commissioned ~10 years ago but my recruiter friend informed me a few years after that that they did away with officer accessions recruiters and consolidated all recruiting together.


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They do for the AF reserves.

DABAviator
12-15-2018, 01:31 PM
Do they have those again? They were a thing when I commissioned ~10 years ago but my recruiter friend informed me a few years after that that they did away with officer accessions recruiters and consolidated all recruiting together.


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Yes, for active duty they have enlisted recruiters and officer recruiters currently

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 01:42 PM
Get it expunged. Even the military canít look at it at that point, and you can legally say you never committed a crime.

PRS Guitars
12-15-2018, 03:22 PM
Get it expunged. Even the military canít look at it at that point, and you can legally say you never committed a crime.

I donít think this is true. Mine showed up, didnít matter, I disclosed anyway. Great opportunity to talk about what you learned and how it helped build your character, also I used some self deprecating humor about it in my interview.

PRS Guitars
12-15-2018, 03:32 PM
OP,

It won’t be a problem. I had a disorderly conduct misdemeanor when I was 20. I was also charged with resisting arrest, the resisting arrest was dropped and I took a plea bargain on the disorderly conduct. I was arrested at a college party. Did community service at my college library, and they liked me so much, they offered me a job. I joined the AF 9 years after the incident.

Be prepared to talk about what you learned, and you need to own this 100%, there is no room for quibbling. It actually can make a good interview discussion, and personally, I think it builds some character, it shows that you can pick yourself up and move on, rather than just crumple. They are hiring you to kill people (possibly), not be a choir boy.

The officer that interviewed me had a good laugh with me about my story. Years later in an interview for a very high security clearance, this happened again. But I freaking owned my mistake and ok the full blame. In reality, I really wasn’t guilty of what I was charged with but I have never said that in an interview.

Feel free to PM me.

PS, be very careful with your recruiter, some of them will lie to you. I had 1 great recruiter and one not so good.

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 03:41 PM
I donít think this is true. Mine showed up, didnít matter, I disclosed anyway. Great opportunity to talk about what you learned and how it helped build your character, also I used some self deprecating humor about it in my interview.

Expungement is not the same as sealed. If itís expunged, itís gone. I donít know what you mean when you say ďyours showed upĒ. Thatís not even possible.

PRS Guitars
12-15-2018, 03:49 PM
Expungement is not the same as sealed. If itís expunged, itís gone. I donít know what you mean when you say ďyours showed upĒ. Thatís not even possible.

I had it expunged, then when I did a background check on myself (Colorado Bureau of Investigation), it showed up. I donít know if the expungement didnít work or what.

Bottom line, it doesnít matter, if they ask if youíve ever been arrested, the answer is yes for the OP.

rickair7777
12-15-2018, 03:56 PM
Get it expunged. Even the military canít look at it at that point, and you can legally say you never committed a crime.

No. That technically applies to civilian employers, but not federal agencies like DoD, Intel, LE.

If they ask a question, answer it literally.

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 03:59 PM
I had it expunged, then when I did a background check on myself (Colorado Bureau of Investigation), it showed up. I donít know if the expungement didnít work or what.

Bottom line, it doesnít matter, if they ask if youíve ever been arrested, the answer is yes for the OP.

Iím quite familiar with how it works in Colorado. If yours showed up in a CBI check, it was not expunged. You are giving the OP incorrect information.

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 04:01 PM
No. That technically applies to civilian employers, but not federal agencies like DoD, Intel, LE.

If they ask a question, answer it literally.

Absolutely incorrect. It applies to the military.

BeatNavy
12-15-2018, 04:17 PM
APC lawyers are the worst kind. Unless a very experienced attorney advised me otherwise, I would disclose everything, even expunged stuff. A quick google search shows there are definitely circumstances where expunged stuff shows up.

https://www.recordgone.com/articles/can-expunged-record-be-found.htm

PRS Guitars
12-15-2018, 06:25 PM
Iím quite familiar with how it works in Colorado. If yours showed up in a CBI check, it was not expunged. You are giving the OP incorrect information.

Ok, doesnít matter, he should probably consult a lawyer if he wants to deny it happened. I stand by my recommendation to answer the questions accurately, especially since it really doesnít matter, but Iím not a lawyer. Sounds like maybe you were, I donít know.

rickair7777
12-15-2018, 06:40 PM
Absolutely incorrect. It applies to the military.

You are absolutely not correct.

For clarity, it may not be disqualifying, but you cannot lie about arrests or convictions, regardless of any sealing or expunging.

All military personnel must be eligible for a clearance. I know how those work, my unit has dedicated Intel cell which reports to me.

Also I'm talking federal, maybe the guard is different.

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 07:34 PM
APC lawyers are the worst kind. Unless a very experienced attorney advised me otherwise, I would disclose everything, even expunged stuff. A quick google search shows there are definitely circumstances where expunged stuff shows up.

https://www.recordgone.com/articles/can-expunged-record-be-found.htm

I agree completely, OP absolutely talk to a lawyer. Because you were a juvenile, expungement is different than what the linked article above applies to.

wrxpilot
12-15-2018, 07:37 PM
You are absolutely not correct.

For clarity, it may not be disqualifying, but you cannot lie about arrests or convictions, regardless of any sealing or expunging.

All military personnel must be eligible for a clearance. I know how those work, my unit has dedicated Intel cell which reports to me.

Also I'm talking federal, maybe the guard is different.

https://www.hmichaelsteinberg.com/juvenile-criminal-cases/faq-colorado-juvenile-criminal-law-the-collateral-consequences-in-colorado-of-a-juvenile-criminal-record-adjudication-the-impact-of-juvenile-criminal-records-in-colorado.htm

rickair7777
12-16-2018, 07:50 AM
https://www.hmichaelsteinberg.com/juvenile-criminal-cases/faq-colorado-juvenile-criminal-law-the-collateral-consequences-in-colorado-of-a-juvenile-criminal-record-adjudication-the-impact-of-juvenile-criminal-records-in-colorado.htm


That's an ad for a lawyer in Colorado?

If for some reason you think you need to lie to any federal national security or law enforcement agency, please consult with a lawyer who specializes in *federal* issues. Probably need to look inside the beltway, not in a fly-over state for the right guy.

rickair7777
12-16-2018, 07:53 AM
APC lawyers are the worst kind. Unless a very experienced attorney advised me otherwise, I would disclose everything, even expunged stuff. A quick google search shows there are definitely circumstances where expunged stuff shows up.

https://www.recordgone.com/articles/can-expunged-record-be-found.htm

This is correct, point I'm trying to make is get competent professional advice BEFORE you dig yourself a hole.

Talk to a lawyer who specializes in the issue at hand. Same thing for federal aviation issues, some of your local strip mall ambulance chasers will just give you the canned employment law answer that applies to job applicants at jiffy lube.

wrxpilot
12-16-2018, 03:21 PM
That's an ad for a lawyer in Colorado?

If for some reason you think you need to lie to any federal national security or law enforcement agency, please consult with a lawyer who specializes in *federal* issues. Probably need to look inside the beltway, not in a fly-over state for the right guy.

You need to take your own advice here. I never said anything about lying to law enforcement agencies. Hereís a link from the state of Colorado about what expungement means and how it is applicable to the individual:

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/PDF/JDF%20301%20Instructions%20to%20File%20a%20Juvenil e%20Expungement%20.pdf

The expungement is applicable to the military. Again, rather than take the advice of me, you, or anyone else here, the OP should consult an attorney familiar with juvenile law.

AFTrainerGuy
12-16-2018, 05:38 PM
I get the original poster probably doesnít want to disclose to the public on the internet what he did, but really, how bad was it? is it really worth a lawyer and all this worrying? A simple call to a recruiter should tell you if itís disqualifying or not (or internet search). Heck, PM me and Iíll ask our recruiter point blank for you if you want

So, I was that kid in HS and Freshman year of College that seemed to get in trouble every time I went out. I had MANY misdemeanors and stood in front of a judge more than once... I even had to check into big boy jail for a very long weekend to ďlearn my lessonĒ. Been there, done that and understand your worry.

Hereís my advice... be honest. I was and it didnít stop me from getting UPT slot. I simply listed everything that I was charged with and the resultant action. And, just like a ASAP or any other official report, i only put as little detail as I possibly could get away with about each.

I had one or two that I wasnít sure if they could see or not... I had two choices... disclose or chance them finding it

I chose honesty and there were no issues.

Free advice... take it for what itís worth

wrxpilot
12-16-2018, 06:19 PM
I get the original poster probably doesnít want to disclose to the public on the internet what he did, but really, how bad was it? is it really worth a lawyer and all this worrying? A simple call to a recruiter should tell you if itís disqualifying or not (or internet search). Heck, PM me and Iíll ask our recruiter point blank for you if you want

So, I was that kid in HS and Freshman year of College that seemed to get in trouble every time I went out. I had MANY misdemeanors and stood in front of a judge more than once... I even had to check into big boy jail for a very long weekend to ďlearn my lessonĒ. Been there, done that and understand your worry.

Hereís my advice... be honest. I was and it didnít stop me from getting UPT slot. I simply listed everything that I was charged with and the resultant action. And, just like a ASAP or any other official report, i only put as little detail as I possibly could get away with about each.

I had one or two that I wasnít sure if they could see or not... I had two choices... disclose or chance them finding it

I chose honesty and there were no issues.

Free advice... take it for what itís worth

I think this is the best post on this thread. I want to be clear I wasnít advocating dishonesty with my posts either... Weíve almost all made mistakes that we have to discuss in the interview process. While Iíve been very fortunate to never have legal issues, there are other things I did have to talk about. Rather than being a hindrance, they created a good dialogue that made for a positive interview experience.

As far as getting a lawyer and clearing up juvenile issues, thatís not even necessary. I have a family member that had a bit of a checkered past, and we fairly recently went through all of this to clear up his past as he embarks on a new career. We expunged his record without the need for an attorney.

rickair7777
12-17-2018, 07:52 AM
You need to take your own advice here. I never said anything about lying to law enforcement agencies. Here’s a link from the state of Colorado about what expungement means and how it is applicable to the individual:

https://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/PDF/JDF%20301%20Instructions%20to%20File%20a%20Juvenil e%20Expungement%20.pdf

The expungement is applicable to the military. Again, rather than take the advice of me, you, or anyone else here, the OP should consult an attorney familiar with juvenile law.


You are so 100% wrong, and it doesn't matter what some local-yokel shyster put on his web page. I am a senior military officer and I know this for sure.

If the DoD finds out that you didn't disclose something they asked for, they will revoke your security clearance and you're out. Unlike any other employers they will actually call your friends, and then get the names of some more people who know you from them, and then call those people, who may not be your friends at all... A background check can cost up to $100K, and even accounting for government inefficiency that's a still a lot of scrutiny that's going to be focused on your background. If you're applying to be an officer and pilot, most will need a TS/SCI clearance (everyone needs a secret eligibility today).

As long as we're posting random links...

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/can-a-juvenile-felon-enlist-3354071

Can I Enlist in the Military with an Expunged Record? NJ Expungement (http://katherineobrienlaw.com/legal-blog/can-enlist-military-expunged-record/)

Bur don't take my word for it, you can go to a strip mall and ask a recruiter. Don't even need to tell him your name.