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Flytolive
12-22-2018, 08:12 AM
Can anyone confirm the rumor that Norwegian has cancelled all their 2019 new hire classes and upgrades?


GuardPolice
12-22-2018, 08:22 AM
Can anyone confirm the rumor that Norwegian has cancelled all their 2019 new hire classes and upgrades?


There’s a thread on the airliners.net forums that shows a screenshot of a letter from OSM. It seems to confirm what you’re asking.

Flytolive
12-22-2018, 08:29 AM
https://www.newsinenglish.no/2018/12/20/norwegian-air-lands-in-more-trouble/


Contrail06
12-22-2018, 10:16 AM
So sad....couldn’t happen to a nicer group of under cutters.

Cosa Nostra
12-22-2018, 11:04 AM
"If he dies, he dies" -Ivan Drago


https://twitter.com/Golfcharlie232/status/1076070577478295552 Here's the link

PotatoChip
12-23-2018, 04:20 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/12/22/discount-carrier-norwegian-air-faces-collapse-by-years-end/#4939332f4e9b

NEDude
12-24-2018, 03:55 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/12/22/discount-carrier-norwegian-air-faces-collapse-by-years-end/#4939332f4e9b

And just one day later:
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-norwegian-air-shores-up-its-balance-sheet-2018-12?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

Smooth at FL450
12-24-2018, 07:14 AM
And just one day later:
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-norwegian-air-shores-up-its-balance-sheet-2018-12?r=US&IR=T&IR=T


The loan payments due in a few days are not mentioned. Are these cost savings and liquidity generating moves immediate or realized over time? My guess is the later...

Andy
12-24-2018, 09:47 AM
And just one day later:
https://www.businessinsider.com/r-norwegian-air-shores-up-its-balance-sheet-2018-12?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

Is that the first Norwegian press release you've read????? They're all full of bovine excrement.

Norwegian and WoW are dead. The question is who's dead first - Norwegian or WoW.

Denti
12-24-2018, 10:20 AM
Didn't Indigo buy a major stake in WoW? The same company that finances Frontier, WizzAir and JetSmart, the real undercutters in all markets with 430 Airbus A320NEO family on order. If you complain about Norwegian, you haven't heard from WizzAir apparently. And WoW is joining that family.

On the other hand, Norwegian might fail or not fail, but there are airlines queuing up to buy it, for over a year already, so it probably won't leave the market. Outfits like IAG, that owns AOCs in the UK, Spain, Austria, France and Ireland.

NEDude
12-24-2018, 01:25 PM
The loan payments due in a few days are not mentioned. Are these cost savings and liquidity generating moves immediate or realized over time? My guess is the later...

The article does mention they just secured 275 million NOK in liquidity. So that part is immediate.

OhSnapAF
12-24-2018, 02:51 PM
Anyone have the address? I would like to send thoughts and prayers but I don't know which country to send it to...

Burton78
12-24-2018, 03:01 PM
Anyone have the address? I would like to send thoughts and prayers but I don't know which country to send it to...



Oh snap!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NEDude
12-24-2018, 03:06 PM
Anyone have the address? I would like to send thoughts and prayers but I don't know which country to send it to...

Don’t think they’ll need it.

I find it funny that an article that states Norwegian is in trouble is taken as gospel, but one that states that maybe it’s not is summarily dismissed.

OhSnapAF
12-24-2018, 03:21 PM
Don’t think they’ll need it.

I find it funny that an article that states Norwegian is in trouble is taken as gospel, but one that states that maybe it’s not is summarily dismissed.

Yea because every airline is canceling ALL 2019 classes and ALL 2019 upgrades before 2019 starts....

http://i64.tinypic.com/2lnzpqe.jpg

Andy
12-24-2018, 10:27 PM
Didn't Indigo buy a major stake in WoW? The same company that finances Frontier, WizzAir and JetSmart, the real undercutters in all markets with 430 Airbus A320NEO family on order. If you complain about Norwegian, you haven't heard from WizzAir apparently. And WoW is joining that family.

On the other hand, Norwegian might fail or not fail, but there are airlines queuing up to buy it, for over a year already, so it probably won't leave the market. Outfits like IAG, that owns AOCs in the UK, Spain, Austria, France and Ireland.

Indigo's still doing due diligence more than a month after entering the picture. That's not a good sign for WoW. And even before such arrangement is completed, WoW is cutting from 20 to 11 aircraft.

Please name these airlines 'queuing up' to buy Norwegian. IAG? Willie Walsh only wants to part it out for a very lowball number - why do you think the offer hasn't been accepted? Other than IAG, there's no one, in spite of what Bjorn Kjos (a pathological liar) may state. Listen to what Michael O'Leary has to say about Norwegian.

Andy
12-24-2018, 10:39 PM
The article does mention they just secured 275 million NOK in liquidity. So that part is immediate.

Yes, let's ignore that money moved from one Norwegian subsidiary to another.

The House Rent Blues. Give me one bourbon, on scotch, one beer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--AvCsh48bk

NEDude
12-25-2018, 04:26 AM
Indigo's still doing due diligence more than a month after entering the picture. That's not a good sign for WoW. And even before such arrangement is completed, WoW is cutting from 20 to 11 aircraft.

Please name these airlines 'queuing up' to buy Norwegian. IAG? Willie Walsh only wants to part it out for a very lowball number - why do you think the offer hasn't been accepted? Other than IAG, there's no one, in spite of what Bjorn Kjos (a pathological liar) may state. Listen to what Michael O'Leary has to say about Norwegian.

Lufthansa has confirmed its interest in Norwegian as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/norwegian-air-lufthansa-iag-bidding-war-british-airways-budget-airlines-a8404851.html

Where do you get the idea IAG only wants to part out Norwegian? Have you been on the phone with Willie Walsh recently? Most articles have made no mention of IAGs plans for Norwegian, while a recent article has claimed IAG intends to operate it as a "middle cost" level airline, about on par with the Aer Lingus model.

"Walsh’s objective would be to bring Norwegian into the Group’s “middle cost” sector, or to support the Norwegian carrier at Iberia Express and Aer Lingus in that target market that fosters both low cost but is also attractive to the business, also focusing on the good connections that Norwegian makes to the USA."

https://www.eturbonews.com/239596/iag-final-assault-on-ceo-of-norwegian-air

Slats Extend
12-25-2018, 07:23 AM
Sir Freddy Laker is laughing is rear off from the beyond.


He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it and fail.
Norwegian and WOW didn't read history.


You can keep your head buried in the sand as long as you want.


Won't change the facts that you can't charge 65 euros to fly pax across the north Atlantic with brand new widebody aircraft and expect to stay in business vary long.

SUX4U
12-25-2018, 08:39 AM
Don’t think they’ll need it.

I find it funny that an article that states Norwegian is in trouble is taken as gospel, but one that states that maybe it’s not is summarily dismissed.

And it’s funny that you think another money bandage is going to heal the massive, deep gash that keeps gushing blood.

Regardless if the turd survives another round of flushing, one way or another they are deep in the toilet with no question of more crap getting dumped on top of it’s already putrid existence. The only hope is the hole at the bottom of the pot finally gives relief and sets the miserable thing free, never to be seen again.

Half wing
12-25-2018, 10:13 AM
And it’s funny that you think another money bandage is going to heal the massive, deep gash that keeps gushing blood.

Regardless if the turd survives another round of flushing, one way or another they are deep in the toilet with no question of more crap getting dumped on top of it’s already putrid existence. The only hope is the hole at the bottom of the pot finally gives relief and sets the miserable thing free, never to be seen again.

Could not have said it better myself. Flush the turd. Merry Christmas!

dera
12-25-2018, 12:57 PM
Other than IAG, there's no one, in spite of what Bjorn Kjos (a pathological liar) may state. Listen to what Michael O'Leary has to say about Norwegian.

Dude. You would take anything MOL says seriously?
Come on.

NEDude
12-25-2018, 04:55 PM
Dude. You would take anything MOL says seriously?
Come on.

They only take him seriously if what he says agrees with their desired narrative. Just like the news articles. If it agrees with the desired narrative, then of course it is accurate. If it disputes the desired narrative, then it must be dismissed.

dera
12-25-2018, 07:33 PM
They only take him seriously if what he says agrees with their desired narrative. Just like the news articles. If it agrees with the desired narrative, then of course it is accurate. If it disputes the desired narrative, then it must be dismissed.

Don't think some people here realize MOL has been a joke of the industry for ages.
Come on, he's the guy who said they will start to charge people for bathroom use, and that he'll sell standing room tickets on his flights.

Sunrig
12-25-2018, 08:11 PM
Don't think some people here realize MOL has been a joke of the industry for ages.
Come on, he's the guy who said they will start to charge people for bathroom use, and that he'll sell standing room tickets on his flights.

I don’t like MOL as much as you do most probably, but you should realize that the fee for the bathroom was a way to get publicity for his airline. He always comes up with some crazy weird stuff just to get attention.
And we have to admit , that he predicted the bankruptcy of Air Berlin. So he was not so off.

NEDude
12-26-2018, 02:18 PM
I don’t like MOL as much as you do most probably, but you should realize that the fee for the bathroom was a way to get publicity for his airline. He always comes up with some crazy weird stuff just to get attention.
And we have to admit , that he predicted the bankruptcy of Air Berlin. So he was not so off.

People had predicting the demise of Air Berlin for about a decade. Predicting the demise of Air Berlin was about as insightful as correctly predicting the rise of the sun tomorrow morning.

Andy
12-26-2018, 06:03 PM
Lufthansa has confirmed its interest in Norwegian as well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/norwegian-air-lufthansa-iag-bidding-war-british-airways-budget-airlines-a8404851.html

Where do you get the idea IAG only wants to part out Norwegian? Have you been on the phone with Willie Walsh recently? Most articles have made no mention of IAGs plans for Norwegian, while a recent article has claimed IAG intends to operate it as a "middle cost" level airline, about on par with the Aer Lingus model.

"Walsh’s objective would be to bring Norwegian into the Group’s “middle cost” sector, or to support the Norwegian carrier at Iberia Express and Aer Lingus in that target market that fosters both low cost but is also attractive to the business, also focusing on the good connections that Norwegian makes to the USA."

https://www.eturbonews.com/239596/iag-final-assault-on-ceo-of-norwegian-air

LOL. Sure, Lufthansa's interested in Norwegian. Their aircraft at fire sale prices. Did you actually read that six month old article? How about the last paragraph?


Also note where NAS' stock price was at when that article was written. Now note where it's at. If IAG were interested in buying the company, they could easily do it now at a 40% discount. They're not. They, like Lufthansa, will take the planes at fire sale prices but that's it.


Have you lost your job at WoW? You were pretty junior so I'd imagine you've been cut and are now sniffing around for another job. So you're now looking at Norwegian? You remind me of the Independence Air pilots who went to Skybus. Good luck with that plan.

Andy
12-27-2018, 04:57 AM
People had predicting the demise of Air Berlin for about a decade. Predicting the demise of Air Berlin was about as insightful as correctly predicting the rise of the sun tomorrow morning.

Hmm. How long have people been predicting the demise of Norwegian? Same as Air Berlin.

On the other hand, I love how you buy into the idea that Norwegian somehow got an additional $30 million for leasing its 787. The problem, of course, is that Arctic Aviation Assets, the leasing company that Norwegian uses, is wholly owned by Norwegian. But sure, they've now got another $30 million in cash by doing a sale/leaseback to themselves on their new 787. :rolleyes:
Or that other airlines are interested in buying Norwegian or WoW and continuing to operate them as a going concern. :rolleyes:

The business model of TATL LCC has been proven to not work many times since Freddie Laker; Norwegian and WoW are just going to be the latest corpses. French Bee to soon follow.

NEDude
12-27-2018, 06:05 AM
LOL. Sure, Lufthansa's interested in Norwegian. Their aircraft at fire sale prices. Did you actually read that six month old article? How about the last paragraph?


Also note where NAS' stock price was at when that article was written. Now note where it's at. If IAG were interested in buying the company, they could easily do it now at a 40% discount. They're not. They, like Lufthansa, will take the planes at fire sale prices but that's it.


Have you lost your job at WoW? You were pretty junior so I'd imagine you've been cut and are now sniffing around for another job. So you're now looking at Norwegian? You remind me of the Independence Air pilots who went to Skybus. Good luck with that plan.

Been working full time as a TRI for an ATO for a while now. I am an Airbus guy, so Norwegian is not really an option for me even if I wanted to go there.

As I have said before, Norwegian has placed upward pressure on salaries in Europe. Ryanair in particular has had to significantly increase their pay and improve working conditions due to many pilots leaving for Norwegian. My wife’s company has had to do the same. The collapse of Norwegian would reverse that upward pressure, so I would much rather see them thrive than collapse. Every time large airlines start failing, there is downward pressure on pilot salaries. Back in the early 90s, after the collapse of Eastern, Pan Am, and Midway, it was virtually impossible to get a job in the industry. When I was working on my CFII in the summer of 1992, my instructor was fortunate enough to land a job flying Dormier 228s for Precision Airlines in the Northeast. He had almost 4,000 hours, and had to shell out a $15,000 training bond for a job that paid just $12,000 per year. Personally I don’t want to see that kind of market for pilots ever again, which is why I want to see more airlines and more jobs.

Andy
12-27-2018, 11:59 AM
IF Norwegian is putting upward pressure on pilot wages in euroland, that's a euroland problem. No need to export crappy euro wages to the rest of the world.
Norwegian and WoW's business models are doomed to failure.

Downward pressure on wages is definitely not an issue in the US and I doubt it will be considering current regional wages and they're still short of pilots.

NEDude
12-27-2018, 01:06 PM
https://ukaviation.news/norwegian-in-good-shape-for-2019/

Denti
12-29-2018, 12:02 AM
IF Norwegian is putting upward pressure on pilot wages in euroland, that's a euroland problem. No need to export crappy euro wages to the rest of the world.
Norwegian and WoW's business models are doomed to failure.

Downward pressure on wages is definitely not an issue in the US and I doubt it will be considering current regional wages and they're still short of pilots.

In that case i once again wonder about the vitriol against Norwegian, while not being against Lufthansa (they do fly A330s over the north atlantic with a max salary of €107k/year for their skippers). British airways is doing the same with its subsidiary Open Sky and Level. And hope that neither of the LCCs use the increased range of their respective re-engined workhorses, after all they all have hundreds of them on order (100+ MAX for ryanair, 150 fixed plus 100 options for easyjet, 140 for wizzair), all of them transatlantic capable.

Andy
12-29-2018, 11:14 AM
In that case i once again wonder about the vitriol against Norwegian, while not being against Lufthansa (they do fly A330s over the north atlantic with a max salary of €107k/year for their skippers). British airways is doing the same with its subsidiary Open Sky and Level. And hope that neither of the LCCs use the increased range of their respective re-engined workhorses, after all they all have hundreds of them on order (100+ MAX for ryanair, 150 fixed plus 100 options for easyjet, 140 for wizzair), all of them transatlantic capable.

You might want to correct Reuters on Lufthansa's pilot salaries. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-unions/lufthansa-agrees-deal-with-pilots-on-pay-and-pensions-idUSKBN16M180

And another source that says you're wrong: Lufthansa German Airlines pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Lufthansa_German_Airlines)

One source is incorrect, and my bet is that it's you, Denti. As for the rest of your post, there are a finite number of LCC CEOs that think TATL LCC operations could possibly be profitable. I'll assume the ones who got educated for 'free' in euroland think that Freddie Laker was a genius. Most of us recognize that he was a genius at losing money.

BigfatQ
12-29-2018, 11:34 AM
He probably means their SunExpress half wholly owned company flying wet leases for Eurowings (A330). Eurowings is taking more and more Lufthansa flying these days

Andy
12-30-2018, 10:10 AM
He probably means their SunExpress half wholly owned company flying wet leases for Eurowings (A330). Eurowings is taking more and more Lufthansa flying these days

Eurowings doesn't fly TATL. They only go as far as Reykjavik. And the flight I pulled up for KEF was a 737 flown by TUfly.

SunExpress also doesn't fly TATL.

BigfatQ
12-30-2018, 10:24 AM
Ok let's split hairs. SunExpress Deutschland flies TATL for Eurowings.

sailingfun
12-30-2018, 10:46 AM
In that case i once again wonder about the vitriol against Norwegian, while not being against Lufthansa (they do fly A330s over the north atlantic with a max salary of €107k/year for their skippers). British airways is doing the same with its subsidiary Open Sky and Level. And hope that neither of the LCCs use the increased range of their respective re-engined workhorses, after all they all have hundreds of them on order (100+ MAX for ryanair, 150 fixed plus 100 options for easyjet, 140 for wizzair), all of them transatlantic capable.

Where exactly are you getting this info. I have a friend at Lufthansa who earns 250,000 Euro’s a year and say your statement is complete BS. How about a source?

Cosa Nostra
12-30-2018, 10:49 AM
Yep, they max out at about 25,000k a month ... excluding all their benefits.

BA pilots make a ton as well.

Andy
12-30-2018, 11:56 AM
Ok let's split hairs. SunExpress Deutschland flies TATL for Eurowings.

OK, please post a city pair, date of flight and flight number. I can't find any served by SunExpress.
But more to the point, SunExpress pilots are not on the Lufthansa seniority list so this is akin to someone characterizing a SkyWest Pilot as a United pilot.

Cosa Nostra
12-30-2018, 04:40 PM
OK, please post a city pair, date of flight and flight number. I can't find any served by SunExpress.
But more to the point, SunExpress pilots are not on the Lufthansa seniority list so this is akin to someone characterizing a SkyWest Pilot as a United pilot.


I jumpseated with a Lufthansa pilot years ago.
He was hired by Lufthansa, sent to SunExpress, then sent to Lufthansa Cargo back to mainline Lufthansa. Lufthansa will send their pilots to companies they own when needed, were talking about a small percentage.

Andy
12-31-2018, 08:13 AM
I jumpseated with a Lufthansa pilot years ago.
He was hired by Lufthansa, sent to SunExpress, then sent to Lufthansa Cargo back to mainline Lufthansa. Lufthansa will send their pilots to companies they own when needed, were talking about a small percentage.

That's great - of course your tendency to exaggerate makes me question the details of this. Speaking of which, where's that TATL city pair that Eurowings is flying with A330s? And please post a reputable source for Eurowings' payscale.

Edit:
In that case i once again wonder about the vitriol against Norwegian, while not being against Lufthansa (they do fly A330s over the north atlantic with a max salary of €107k/year for their skippers).

Well, let's just say you are talking about Eurowings. However, the A320 scale in this hyperlink indicates that you're stretching the truth quite a bit about A330 pay. Is that 107K/yr for a year 1 CA on their payscale? If so, very deceptive statement by you.
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Eurowings_Europe_GmbH

Denti
12-31-2018, 11:05 AM
Well, let's just say you are talking about Eurowings. However, the A320 scale in this hyperlink indicates that you're stretching the truth quite a bit about A330 pay. Is that 107K/yr for a year 1 CA on their payscale? If so, very deceptive statement by you.
Eurowings Europe GmbH pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Eurowings_Europe_GmbH)

Wrong payscale, Eurowings does not operate any widebody aircraft. There are widebody aircraft flying under the Eurowings brand, but they are operated by other companies. A330s by Sunexpress Germany, A340 by contract pilots for Brussels Airlines (the old ryan air style employment, just with the highest taxes in europe: belgian ones). And even the A320s are operated by four different companies under the Eurowings brand: Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter (LGW), Eurowings Germany, Eurowings Europe, Germanwings (with two different contracts). And yes, i have quite a few friends that followed their beloved A330 type to Sunexpress and now fly at 107k or less for them, 7 off days per month, up to 3 of them downroute.

Denti
12-31-2018, 11:21 AM
Where exactly are you getting this info. I have a friend at Lufthansa who earns 250,000 Euro’s a year and say your statement is complete BS. How about a source?

Yes, Lufthansa mainline on the old contracts can earn that. But the Lufthansa group has 16 different wholly owned AOCs with wildly different payscales. And the old mainline is shrinking rapidly while the cheap ones are growing even faster. They just move 48 A320s under Lufthansa brand to their subsidiary Cityline for lower terms and conditions, grow the Eurowings brand with the lowest paid pilots (including Sunexpress). And Lufthansa mainly voluntary gave up their scope clause in december 2017 while lowering their own conditions by 15%, all that just to get 8 A340s back from Cityline, exchanging them for 48 A320s, which is kinda ironic.

And yes, i have worked with them and their company council, while serving as an union rep in the same union for another company, seeing the drafts and final contracts. And sadly seeing the disaster unfold that is now the completely infighting lufthansa pilot group. Everyone undermining everyone else and racing each other towards worse and worse terms and conditions. Highest entry pay scale for Eurowings brand A330 captains (operated by Sunexpress Germany) is paypoint 8, which is reached with more than 10.000 PIC experience, more than 5000 on type.

Andy
12-31-2018, 12:22 PM
Wrong payscale, Eurowings does not operate any widebody aircraft. There are widebody aircraft flying under the Eurowings brand, but they are operated by other companies. A330s by Sunexpress Germany, A340 by contract pilots for Brussels Airlines (the old ryan air style employment, just with the highest taxes in europe: belgian ones). And even the A320s are operated by four different companies under the Eurowings brand: Luftfahrtgesellschaft Walter (LGW), Eurowings Germany, Eurowings Europe, Germanwings (with two different contracts). And yes, i have quite a few friends that followed their beloved A330 type to Sunexpress and now fly at 107k or less for them, 7 off days per month, up to 3 of them downroute.

JFC. Let's make it freaking simple. Stop the stories about retarded europilots and post proof. Payscales and TATL city pairs.

BigfatQ
01-01-2019, 12:20 AM
Dusseldorf - Havana 1/3/19 flight number EW 1189 or SXD 1189. You can check flight aware. Seems like flights they stopped flying SunExpress to the USA since they moved the long range ops away from Cologne. They had a flight to Seattle until September.

What Denti is saying is all correct, no need to get so upset. Lufthansa group is not much better than Norwegian. Outsourcing to save a buck.

dera
01-01-2019, 04:53 AM
What Denti is saying is all correct, no need to get so upset. Lufthansa group is not much better than Norwegian. Outsourcing to save a buck.

This is what people fail to understand here. There is no "CBA" in Europe. The guys making 250k/year are all in old legacy contracts when you still could make money in Europe. The later hires are on different contracts making much less. The "contracts" in Europe have a ton of carveouts, different fleet rules etc.
The starting salary at Finnair, one of the European "legacy" airlines, is around €36k/year including all extras (similar to counting per diem as part of salary). Top range is around €120k/year for senior captains.
For the "what's your source" folks, https://company.finnair.com/fi/toihin-finnairille/liikennelentajat/q-a question #33.

Air France, Lufthansa and other traditionally well paying companies don't hire directly any more to the well paying fleets. So whatever pilots are making there now isn't applicable to a new hire.

Cosa Nostra
01-01-2019, 06:03 AM
That's great - of course your tendency to exaggerate makes me question the details of this.


Exaggerate? If I have please let me know when and where.


Since I can't put you in contact with a current Lufthansa pilot I know.
Here is a quote from pprune. Not Sunexpress (When I jumpseated with that specific LH pilot, Germanwings didn't exist) but Germanwings.
If I find anything more credible, i'll make sure to send it your way.



"Germanwings pilots are LH pilots.
After they are hired the LH pilots are sent to the mainline, Cargo or Germanwings.
Anyway, it is by far not the best paid job in Europe, but the T&C are of course quite good."

NEDude
01-01-2019, 06:56 AM
Yes, Lufthansa mainline on the old contracts can earn that. But the Lufthansa group has 16 different wholly owned AOCs with wildly different payscales. And the old mainline is shrinking rapidly while the cheap ones are growing even faster. They just move 48 A320s under Lufthansa brand to their subsidiary Cityline for lower terms and conditions, grow the Eurowings brand with the lowest paid pilots (including Sunexpress). And Lufthansa mainly voluntary gave up their scope clause in december 2017 while lowering their own conditions by 15%, all that just to get 8 A340s back from Cityline, exchanging them for 48 A320s, which is kinda ironic.

And yes, i have worked with them and their company council, while serving as an union rep in the same union for another company, seeing the drafts and final contracts. And sadly seeing the disaster unfold that is now the completely infighting lufthansa pilot group. Everyone undermining everyone else and racing each other towards worse and worse terms and conditions. Highest entry pay scale for Eurowings brand A330 captains (operated by Sunexpress Germany) is paypoint 8, which is reached with more than 10.000 PIC experience, more than 5000 on type.

What one should take from this post is that Norwegian is hardly the only airline guilty of this, and by no means is even a trailblazer. The tactics used by the management of these airlines may not be desirable, but they are a well established reality in the European airline industry. Singling out Norwegian when the same tactic is being used by virtually every other European airline is an exercise in futility. ALPA's anti-Norwegian campaign was a silly waste of time and money, filled with many falsehoods and misleading statements, and did absolutely nothing to stop or slow this European airline business tactic. Like it or not, it is the reality.

captjns
01-01-2019, 07:40 AM
ALPA's anti-Norwegian campaign was a silly waste of time and money, filled with many falsehoods and misleading statements, and did absolutely nothing to stop or slow this European airline business tactic. Like it or not, it is the reality.

Perhaps the anti Norwegian folks should be banging on the doors of their own airlines as well as ALPA. The 3 legacies are guilty of use it carriers from Asia, Europe, operating out of U.S. airports, out sourcing, in the name of code sharing. Passengers flying on foreign metal, lower labor and operating costs. So.... where are the objections?

One of my favorite screeens shots is... “Who’s operating my flight?:eek: You may not like Norwegian, but at least you know the airline.

B757
01-01-2019, 09:04 AM
The starting salary at Finnair, one of the European "legacy" airlines, is around €36k/year including all extras (similar to counting per diem as part of salary). Top range is around €120k/year for senior captains.
..Good friend of mine is a A350 captain at Finnair, making over 200k / year..Been there about 30yrs..Starting pay is correct though, very low..

Fly Safe,
B757

BigfatQ
01-01-2019, 11:18 AM
"Germanwings pilots are LH pilots.
After they are hired the LH pilots are sent to the mainline, Cargo or Germanwings.
Anyway, it is by far not the best paid job in Europe, but the T&C are of course quite good."

Germanwings pilots used to be LH pilots, with slightly lower t&c's and after a few years they could move on to LH. Now it seems new hires are not treated the same anymore. Anyways Germanwings is only one of six airlines flying for the Eurowings brand

NEDude
01-01-2019, 12:05 PM
..Good friend of mine is a A350 captain at Finnair, making over 200k / year..Been there about 30yrs..Starting pay is correct though, very low..

Fly Safe,
B757

Same with SAS. I would love to fly for SAS, but there is no way I can afford to. The starting pay is atrocious, and remains that way for many years. Even my wife's tiny little charter airline pays significantly more than SAS for the first several years.

dera
01-01-2019, 05:50 PM
..Good friend of mine is a A350 captain at Finnair, making over 200k / year..Been there about 30yrs..Starting pay is correct though, very low..

Fly Safe,
B757

The 200k/year guys are the 350 guys who are also in training department and/or management. The only 200k+ guy I can think of there is also the head of training. The old guys make good money, but that's not possible for someone hired today.

The "Mainline" top hourly wage for captains is €77.93 after 22 years with a 150hr/month guarantee, plus a bit of cheddar on top for "per diem" etc. And the new guys will never get to that grade, they are capped to lower max rate.
min 10 days off per month.

The European airlines are not what they were 10-20 years ago, and Norwegian is in line with the rest.

Denti
01-02-2019, 04:18 AM
Dusseldorf - Havana 1/3/19 flight number EW 1189 or SXD 1189. You can check flight aware. Seems like flights they stopped flying SunExpress to the USA since they moved the long range ops away from Cologne. They had a flight to Seattle until September.

What Denti is saying is all correct, no need to get so upset. Lufthansa group is not much better than Norwegian. Outsourcing to save a buck.

Well, some of their A330 OPS have been moved to the contractor fake self employed brussels airline operation. However, yes, SXD is still operating all its A330s for Eurowings, some of them now out of MUC, others out of DUS. Brussels operates all of the Eurowings A340s though, same employment model as mentioned above.

Wasn't aware that €36K is now considered legacy starting pay, when easyJet second officers earn nearly €52k starting salary right out of flightschool on the german contract. Which is not high either, but considering that they will be on the left side within 5 to 6 years at €170k it is not bad at all.

Joachim
01-07-2019, 05:43 AM
Well, some of their A330 OPS have been moved to the contractor fake self employed brussels airline operation. However, yes, SXD is still operating all its A330s for Eurowings, some of them now out of MUC, others out of DUS. Brussels operates all of the Eurowings A340s though, same employment model as mentioned above.

Wasn't aware that €36K is now considered legacy starting pay, when easyJet second officers earn nearly €52k starting salary right out of flightschool on the german contract. Which is not high either, but considering that they will be on the left side within 5 to 6 years at €170k it is not bad at all.


The majority of DY pilots come from the likes of easyjet and Ryanair. The quality of life is better according to the ones I've spoken to. Additionally, the payscales publicized on APC are only refective of the initial 3 year contract. After that pilots are transitioned to an indefinite "in house" contract. They retain their base pay up to 65 hours after which they get paid $130-$200/hr dependent on position and location. Some bases get retirement contributions and other benefits as well.

Andy
01-07-2019, 06:15 AM
Perhaps the anti Norwegian folks should be banging on the doors of their own airlines as well as ALPA. The 3 legacies are guilty of use it carriers from Asia, Europe, operating out of U.S. airports, out sourcing, in the name of code sharing. Passengers flying on foreign metal, lower labor and operating costs. So.... where are the objections?

One of my favorite screeens shots is... “Who’s operating my flight?:eek: You may not like Norwegian, but at least you know the airline.

Codeshare is a way of limiting the number of flights between city pairs to the benefit of airlines in both countries.

As an example, ORD-FRA on 10 Jan. There are 3 nonstops between LH and UA. UA flies 2 and LH flies one. If there were no codeshare, it's likely that both airlines would operate additional flights between the city pairs, driving down revenues to the point where the route would, at best, be marginally profitable.

I don't know about AA or DL contracts but a section of United's pilot agreement has codeshare limitations... 1-C-3 Foreign Air Carrier Code Share Agreements

Are you actually trying to suggest that only US carriers should be flying internationally if one of the city pairs is in the US? Or are you naively suggesting that codesharing be eliminated, which would cause a glut of seats flown internationally, driving down airline revenues and eventually pilot wages?

Andy
01-07-2019, 06:24 AM
… And yes, i have quite a few friends that followed their beloved A330 type to Sunexpress and now fly at 107k or less for them, 7 off days per month, up to 3 of them downroute.

What is wrong with europilots? One could do better both monetarily and quality of life/time off flying in Asia.

Until europilots walk away from such ludicrous flying jobs, wages will continue to suck in euroland. Surely there are jobs with better working conditions/higher pay in euroland that don't involve flying aircraft.

Andy
01-07-2019, 06:33 AM
Dusseldorf - Havana 1/3/19 flight number EW 1189 or SXD 1189. You can check flight aware. Seems like flights they stopped flying SunExpress to the USA since they moved the long range ops away from Cologne. They had a flight to Seattle until September.

What Denti is saying is all correct, no need to get so upset. Lufthansa group is not much better than Norwegian. Outsourcing to save a buck.

Awesome. The example given is a twice weekly flight to HAV. Technically meets the TATL criteria, but doesn't have a US or Canadian city pair.

captjns
01-07-2019, 06:45 AM
Codeshare is a way of limiting the number of flights between city pairs to the benefit of airlines in both countries.

Are you actually trying to suggest that only US carriers should be flying internationally if one of the city pairs is in the US? Or are you naively suggesting that codesharing be eliminated, which would cause a glut of seats flown internationally, driving down airline revenues and eventually pilot wages?


I do, Andy, object to putting passengers on airlines outsourced, lower cost labor, in the name of code sharing, predominantly with Aisian carriers.

Increases profits for the airline... which is good... inhibits potential income for employees... which is... well you can figure the rest.

Andy
01-07-2019, 08:21 AM
I do, Andy, object to putting passengers on airlines outsourced, lower cost labor, in the name of code sharing, predominantly with Aisian carriers.

Increases profits for the airline... which is good... inhibits potential income for employees... which is... well you can figure the rest.

Once again, you fail to understand how many flights those Asian carriers would fly to US city pairs absent a codeshare that restricts the number of flights they are permitted to operate. Our contract has specific limitations so all death* alliance operators who fly into the US have to abide by those restrictions.

No codeshare means they'd flood the market, just as Norwegian did.

Joachim
01-08-2019, 07:09 PM
What is wrong with europilots? One could do better both monetarily and quality of life/time off flying in Asia.

Until europilots walk away from such ludicrous flying jobs, wages will continue to suck in euroland. Surely there are jobs with better working conditions/higher pay in euroland that don't involve flying aircraft.

Europilots used to think the same back in 07 when a USAIR 330 Captain was making $160/hr and they made double. It’s cyclical.

NEDude
01-09-2019, 09:51 AM
Europilots used to think the same back in 07 when a USAIR 330 Captain was making $160/hr and they made double. It’s cyclical.

But...but...but...It was pilots from America undercutting those darned Europeans and that is okay.

GuardPolice
01-09-2019, 12:39 PM
But...but...but...It was pilots from America undercutting those darned Europeans and that is okay.


Those were bankruptcy wages. Undercutting implies it's intentional which is not born out of the bankruptcy process.

Ironically, several regionals stepped in and helped fund US Air's emergence from bankruptcy and merger with America West.

thomaskies
01-09-2019, 02:04 PM
Europilots used to think the same back in 07 when a USAIR 330 Captain was making $160/hr and they made double. It’s cyclical.

..or when the US regional FOs were making less than 20k$ a year :eek:

NEDude
01-09-2019, 10:36 PM
Those were bankruptcy wages. Undercutting implies it's intentional which is not born out of the bankruptcy process.

Ironically, several regionals stepped in and helped fund US Air's emergence from bankruptcy and merger with America West.

Yep, including those of us pilots at Air Wisconsin at the time.

NEDude
01-10-2019, 02:10 AM
News as of this morning:

787 upgrade courses in April, July and October.

Joachim
01-10-2019, 03:40 AM
Those were bankruptcy wages. Undercutting implies it's intentional which is not born out of the bankruptcy process.

Ironically, several regionals stepped in and helped fund US Air's emergence from bankruptcy and merger with America West.

Undercutting is something big companies do to small companies in order to maintain monopoly. It requires sufficient capital to outlive the rival. Do you really think that the startup Norwegian, with all its financial burdens, is trying to win a war of attrition against the legacies combined? Of course not. What Norwegian is offering is an opportunity for the middle classes of the world to be able to fly internationally much like the LCC's did domestically decades ago. Norwegian is creating jobs and offering TATL flights to people who could not afford them before. This is as noble a cause as any and is something that greatly benefits middle America who is otherwise considered to be less well traveled than their European peers.

Legacies are now creating high density configurated cabins on TATL flights in response to DY. Who is undercutting who?

Andy
01-11-2019, 08:59 AM
Europilots used to think the same back in 07 when a USAIR 330 Captain was making $160/hr and they made double. It’s cyclical.

The difference - and real problem for europilots - is allowing companies like Lufthansa to start airlines flying same/similar routes with same/similar equipment.

Companies like Eurowings, SWISS, Austrian Airlines, Germanwings, etc should all be one single company under one single pilot agreement. The pilots are allowing themselves to be whipsawed by the parent company.

The same can be said for IAG's pilots.

Scope. Get some.

Andy
01-11-2019, 09:02 AM
Undercutting is something big companies do to small companies in order to maintain monopoly. It requires sufficient capital to outlive the rival. Do you really think that the startup Norwegian, with all its financial burdens, is trying to win a war of attrition against the legacies combined? Of course not. What Norwegian is offering is an opportunity for the middle classes of the world to be able to fly internationally much like the LCC's did domestically decades ago. Norwegian is creating jobs and offering TATL flights to people who could not afford them before. This is as noble a cause as any and is something that greatly benefits middle America who is otherwise considered to be less well traveled than their European peers.

Legacies are now creating high density configurated cabins on TATL flights in response to DY. Who is undercutting who?

Let us all know when Norwegian starts operating TATL routes that are full year profitable.

I love how you paint a stupid, done before with no success, business model as somehow noble. All it does is waste investment capital and destabilize the entire airline industry.

sailingfun
01-12-2019, 07:01 AM
Undercutting is something big companies do to small companies in order to maintain monopoly. It requires sufficient capital to outlive the rival. Do you really think that the startup Norwegian, with all its financial burdens, is trying to win a war of attrition against the legacies combined? Of course not. What Norwegian is offering is an opportunity for the middle classes of the world to be able to fly internationally much like the LCC's did domestically decades ago. Norwegian is creating jobs and offering TATL flights to people who could not afford them before. This is as noble a cause as any and is something that greatly benefits middle America who is otherwise considered to be less well traveled than their European peers.

Legacies are now creating high density configurated cabins on TATL flights in response to DY. Who is undercutting who?

I would have no issue with your post if Norwegian offered the flights at a fare where they could make a reasonable sustained profit. Clearly that’s not the chase. Had fuel not dropped like a stone the last 60 days we would be reading about the shutdown of the long haul division.
Which legacies are creating long haul high density cabins?

NEDude
01-12-2019, 08:39 AM
I would have no issue with your post if Norwegian offered the flights at a fare where they could make a reasonable sustained profit. Clearly that’s not the chase. Had fuel not dropped like a stone the last 60 days we would be reading about the shutdown of the long haul division.
Which legacies are creating long haul high density cabins?

Are you seriously not aware of the longtime practice of predatory pricing? The U.S. legacies have a long history of doing it.

All of the U.S. airlines are revamping their long-haul products to compete with LCCs:

https://www.investors.com/news/airlines-basic-economy/

And for the record, Norwegian's 787s main cabin seats are the same as the main cabin 787 seats on American, United and Air Canada. According to seatguru.com, the main cabin on all of them offer 9 abreast at 31 to 32 inch pitch (American and Air Canada are listed at 31", Norwegian is shown at 31" to 32", and United is shown at 32".)

Denti
01-12-2019, 06:56 PM
The difference - and real problem for europilots - is allowing companies like Lufthansa to start airlines flying same/similar routes with same/similar equipment.

Companies like Eurowings, SWISS, Austrian Airlines, Germanwings, etc should all be one single company under one single pilot agreement. The pilots are allowing themselves to be whipsawed by the parent company.

The same can be said for IAG's pilots.

Scope. Get some.

Scope sounds nice. However, it is not necessarily legal. Lufthansa mainline had a scope clause and sued their management when it started the Sunexpress longhaul services taking services from Lufthansa based in DUS to that company and closing their DUS base. They lost the court case and have subsequently abandoned their scope clause alltogether while at the same time lowering their T&Cs by about 15% while the company made record profits.

IAG before it became IAG had similar issues, BA pilots went on strike over Open Skies, a french BA subsidiary offering lower cost TATL services. That was against advice of their own legal counsel. The resulting court case (BA sued BALPA) nearly bankrupted the union. After that BA pilots even went so far and worked as cabin crew during cabin crew industrial action to nullify the effectiveness of that (legal) unions action.

SWISS put the newly aquired 777 with their regional subsidiary at regional pay levels, forcing SWISS pilots to lower their conditions as well to get at least a shot at flying it. Helped of course by the fact that different unions represented their pilots before those unions merged recently.

The EU is not a united states of europe, especially in labour law there are huge differences between sovereign countries inside and outside that Union (switzerland is outside, the UK will soon be).

Joachim
01-13-2019, 06:16 PM
I would have no issue with your post if Norwegian offered the flights at a fare where they could make a reasonable sustained profit. Clearly that’s not the chase. Had fuel not dropped like a stone the last 60 days we would be reading about the shutdown of the long haul division.
Which legacies are creating long haul high density cabins?


British Airways and Air France.

dera
01-13-2019, 09:59 PM
British Airways and Air France.

Lufthansa, Finnair.

sailingfun
01-16-2019, 04:26 PM
Are you seriously not aware of the longtime practice of predatory pricing? The U.S. legacies have a long history of doing it.

All of the U.S. airlines are revamping their long-haul products to compete with LCCs:

https://www.investors.com/news/airlines-basic-economy/

And for the record, Norwegian's 787s main cabin seats are the same as the main cabin 787 seats on American, United and Air Canada. According to seatguru.com, the main cabin on all of them offer 9 abreast at 31 to 32 inch pitch (American and Air Canada are listed at 31", Norwegian is shown at 31" to 32", and United is shown at 32".)

All the major airlines are pricing their product at a level where they are making a nice profit. Delta is doing extremely well over the Atlantic. Norwegian has been losing their ass on the long haul. If they were pricing it above their costs they would be profitable dont you think?

NEDude
01-16-2019, 10:36 PM
All the major airlines are pricing their product at a level where they are making a nice profit. Delta is doing extremely well over the Atlantic. Norwegian has been losing their ass on the long haul. If they were pricing it above their costs they would be profitable dont you think?

Obviously Norwegian feels the long haul stuff is viable. The short haul fleet is the one getting the axe. For certain trans-Atlantic operation on the MAX has been a financial nightmare. Most of the issues on the 787 fleet are due to the engine problems, and that is not unique to Norwegian. Apparently the new deal with Rolls Royce eliminates much of the financial problems caused by the engines.

Unofficial word is that the recent re-structuring is being directed by IAG as part of the terms of the sale. IAG supposedly wants Norwegian mostly for the long haul operation. If that is true, then clearly IAG sees something of value in the 787 operation.

Winston
01-24-2019, 09:08 AM
Unofficial word is that the recent re-structuring is being directed by IAG as part of the terms of the sale. IAG supposedly wants Norwegian mostly for the long haul operation. If that is true, then clearly IAG sees something of value in the 787 operation.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/iag-dismisses-norwegian/?fbclid=IwAR0kM2h_RbENZTSqEXGXnzoeleczJ3WkgMbtfzhO G4PJyIBtpsPtHoeZQew

IAG Dismisses Norwegian Interest, To Sell Remaining Stake
by Jonathan Winton

January 24

MIAMI — British Airways owner IAG will no longer submit a bid for ailing carrier Norwegian Air Shuttle, the airline group said on Thursday.

IAG currently holds a 3.93% stake in the low-cost carrier but has revealed that it will also sell its remaining stake in the company.

This latest news comes as a major blow to Norwegian as it seeks to curb its growing losses.

In a public statement, IAG said that it “does not intend to make an offer for Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA and that, in due course, it will be selling its 3.93% shareholding in Norwegian.”

Last week, the carrier announced it would close its Boeing 737 bases in Palma De Mallorca, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, and Rome, effective April 2019. Overseas, the airline will also shut down its Stewart and Providence bases in the US.

Reportedly, these route and base cuts are part of the airline’s ongoing cost-cutting efforts, which aim to save up to $234 million. This program was announced during Dcember 2018.

It has been no secret that in recent times Norwegian Air Shuttle has had to endure a host of financial difficulties which have played a major part in the airline’s decisions to implement a whole host of changes to its 2019 summer schedule.

Norwegian’s Shares Plummet

The effect on Thursday morning following IAG’s withdrawal news saw shares in Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA drop by over 20%—a new low which has seen its shares continuously plummet since it first revealed it was closing several of its European bases at the start of January 2019.

In a statement to its shareholders, CEO and founder of Norwegian Air Shuttle, Bjørn Kjos, remarked that the airline’s current plan is to “continue building a sustainable business to the benefit of its customers, employees, and shareholders.”

Not a week seems to go by without Norwegian making the headlines for one reason or another.

Whether it is cuts to the airline’ fleet, axed routes, financial troubles or finding suitable long-term funding going forward, the airline seems to be mitigating major difficulties.