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TangoIndiaMike1
12-22-2018, 06:16 PM
[Youtube Video][/https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NabyyV5n_ME]


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TangoIndiaMike1
12-22-2018, 06:17 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NabyyV5n_ME

This link should work.


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deus ex machina
12-22-2018, 06:20 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NabyyV5n_ME

This link should work.


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Wasn't Atlas represented by ALPA?


DC8DRIVER
12-22-2018, 07:11 PM
Wasn't Atlas represented by ALPA?

Was. Atlas has been with Teamsters for a pretty long time, now.

deus ex machina
12-23-2018, 08:21 AM
Was. Atlas has been with Teamsters for a pretty long time, now.

Atlas was.... hmmm

hmmm Kalitta just became ALPA... are Atlas pilots familar with how that went down?

The new ALPA President is a cargo guy (Fedex)...

maybe it's time to connect the dots.

itsjustajob
12-23-2018, 12:46 PM
Atlas is the scourge of the industry.

The current sub standard CBA is the direct result of ALPA representation in the early 2000-2005 period.

IBT has been fighting and gaining ground to undo a decade or more of damage ever since.

Anyone that implies ALPA is a better option is not only a fool but has no idea of the history at Atlas and how ALPA damaged the Arlas pilot group for the foreseeable future.

maxjet
12-23-2018, 12:54 PM
As a pilot investor this video is pathetic. With all of the valid complaints about AAWW they started with old airplanes and immigration? Appears to be a lot of whining about things that are part of any airline job. I thought the ABX video was more applicable to real world problems.

Used the same characters for both videos? Couldn’t get a college student to design you a more realistic image of pilots?

This video hurts more than helps. Hopefully it won’t see the general public or heaven forbid anyone who has anything to do with arbitration

BluePAX
12-23-2018, 01:10 PM
As a pilot investor this video is pathetic.(...)

This video hurts more than helps. Hopefully it wonít see the general public or heaven forbid anyone who has anything to do with arbitration

Agreed, 100%

ACMItrash
12-23-2018, 04:31 PM
Agreed, 100%

ALPA ATI cba ...lol

TiredSoul
12-23-2018, 04:37 PM
And a blatant lie at 1:35-1:38
Hiring pilots right out of ďflightschoolĒ.
:rolleyes:
Stopped watching after that.

deus ex machina
12-23-2018, 06:52 PM
Atlas is the scourge of the industry.

The current sub standard CBA is the direct result of ALPA representation in the early 2000-2005 period.

IBT has been fighting and gaining ground to undo a decade or more of damage ever since.

Anyone that implies ALPA is a better option is not only a fool but has no idea of the history at Atlas and how ALPA damaged the Arlas pilot group for the foreseeable future.

If ALPA was last at your property in 2005 what has IBT been doing?

According to APC you contract was amendable over two years ago...

AND

WB FOs at my airline make more than your 747 CAs... think about that every time you fly...

Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...

Enjoy....


....the scourge.

freighthound
12-23-2018, 07:52 PM
If ALPA was last at your property in 2005 what has IBT been doing?

According to APC you contract was amendable over two years ago...

AND

WB FOs at my airline make more than your 747 CAs... think about that every time you fly...

Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...

Enjoy....


....the scourge.
And who might you fly for?

atpcliff
12-23-2018, 08:17 PM
And a blatant lie at 1:35-1:38
Hiring pilots right out of ďflightschoolĒ.
:rolleyes:
Stopped watching after that.

Southern minimums have been reduced to ATP, so it is quite possible that Southern will hire people directly out of a -172.

Droopy
12-23-2018, 09:39 PM
Southern minimums have been reduced to ATP, so it is quite possible that Southern will hire people directly out of a -172.

Additionally, in the announcement of the Ameriflight Pilot Pathway program, they reference the Atlas ATP/CTP program. If they are truly developing one, that lends credence to taking new pilots...

https://w3.ameriflight.com/ameriflight-signs-pilot-pathway-program-agreement-with-atlas-air-worldwide-companies/

Elevation
12-24-2018, 12:17 AM
It's true that we're drawing from a different talent pool than we have in the past. This new reservoir of pilots will require a longer training footprint. Moreover, as pilots realize this isn't a place to stay, we're losing the expertise to move airplanes efficiently. This is why it would be more efficient for all parties to pay competitively.

Referring to pilots who have been flying recips and turboprops at AMF as "straight out of flight school" bothers me. We shouldn't invent a qualitative difference which does not exist. Moreover it's a self-defeating statement to make.

When we make the leap to demeaning these Ameriflight, GoJet or any pilots, others can make the same leap to demean us. Why pay Atlas pilots more when they can't make it anywhere better? If Atlas pilots can't go anywhere better, how much to they really need to be paid in order to fill the seats?

There are a lot of points which can made to support increasing our compensation. Supporting more and faster growth, for example. Trashing other pilots inadvertently trashes OUR pilots.

deus ex machina
12-24-2018, 04:10 AM
It's true that we're drawing from a different talent pool than we have in the past. This new reservoir of pilots will require a longer training footprint. Moreover, as pilots realize this isn't a place to stay, we're losing the expertise to move airplanes efficiently. This is why it would be more efficient for all parties to pay competitively.

Referring to pilots who have been flying recips and turboprops at AMF as "straight out of flight school" bothers me. We shouldn't invent a qualitative difference which does not exist. Moreover it's a self-defeating statement to make.

When we make the leap to demeaning these Ameriflight, GoJet or any pilots, others can make the same leap to demean us. Why pay Atlas pilots more when they can't make it anywhere better? If Atlas pilots can't go anywhere better, how much to they really need to be paid in order to fill the seats?

There are a lot of points which can made to support increasing our compensation. Supporting more and faster growth, for example. Trashing other pilots inadvertently trashes OUR pilots.

ALPA can help, but it seems there it too much pride.

maxjet
12-24-2018, 04:43 AM
ALPA can help, but it seems there it too much pride.

In my opinion ALPA cannot help here. First, it would be crazy to start from scratch. Atlas has to stay with the one they came to the dance with. Second, and most importantly, 1224 is Atlas. It is as close to having your own union as there can be. In some ways it is better. The other airlines share your expenses while Atlas controls their own destiny.

DEM hits the nail on the head when he writes that pride is a factor. With the debt load that AAWW holds, I thought that the strategy used at the beginning of the negotiations was a good one. No OT and slow down the machine and you will get them to the table. The board was smarter than me and the strategy was not effective. Instead of changing the strategy, they have chosen to plod ahead.

Atlas will eventually get a contract. But at what cost?

Jurassic Jet
12-24-2018, 05:13 AM
ALPA can help....

Yeah, just look at that ground breaking, industry leading winner of a contract they got for the suckers ATI. :rolleyes:

DC8DRIVER
12-24-2018, 06:55 AM
Atlas was.... hmmm

hmmm Kalitta just became ALPA... are Atlas pilots familar with how that went down?

The new ALPA President is a cargo guy (Fedex)...

maybe it's time to connect the dots.

Very familiar, thank you. Which is why we are staying with Teamsters.

FYI: The new Kalitta contract was negotiated and signed into existance by Teamsters 1224.

Asci
12-24-2018, 07:40 AM
Very familiar, thank you. Which is why we are staying with Teamsters.



FYI: The new Kalitta contract was negotiated and signed into existance by Teamsters 1224.



Post 17 hits the nail on the head. Atlas using all the other carriers for their money while only looking out for themselves. Not letting Omni or k4 vote on their own contracts that passed by 90+% because it didnít have work rules that Atlas wanted, even though those rules would tank the contracts they had with their customers. Thatís why K4 went ALPA. Letís have ABX strike during peak so we look better to Amazon... all while being the lowest paid and making no headway on a new contract for themselves.
I hope one day soon Atlas and ABX get block buster contracts so they can finally say I told you so. Makes it easier when all the other contracts become amendable in two years.


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hammer pants
12-24-2018, 09:57 AM
If ALPA was last at your property in 2005 what has IBT been doing?

According to APC you contract was amendable over two years ago...

AND

WB FOs at my airline make more than your 747 CAs... think about that every time you fly...

Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...

Enjoy....


....the scourge.

I canít believe you think ALPA is better than the IPA. I have 20 years with ALPA carriers and 3 with the IPA. I wouldnít go back to ALPA if the dues were free.

maxjet
12-24-2018, 10:08 AM
I can’t believe you think ALPA is better than the IPA. I have 20 years with ALPA carriers and 3 with the IPA. I wouldn’t go back to ALPA if the dues were free.

Please explain 2 things for me.

1) Were you at a regional when ALPA was your Union?

2) Are you at Atlas?

If you were a commuter pilot I would agree that ALPA was valueless to you. The power will always be where the board members work. The board members are voted in usually by the larger airline. BTW the head of ALPA is a Cargo pilot now. If you are at Atlas, kind of a good deal. If not, very bad deal and you should consider leaving as you will receive even less representation financially than a commuter pilot.

There is no comparison between the non negotiating programs that ALPA has compared to the IBT.

So how are the negotiations progressing over at Atlas? I assume from your comments regarding the higher quality of representation that IBT provides that they must be right on schedule.

One last comment. I watch with interest the negative remarks made about the ATI contract. If Atlas and ABX fail to acquire a new contract by the time ATI gets their next one (possibly) how much more money and benefits will a pilot at ATI have accrued? Just something to think about regarding different strategies.

JackStraw
12-24-2018, 10:39 AM
If the judge rules in favor of AAWH and against the pilots in regard to the arbitration hearing, then the IBT is going to have a bad time. It might turn pretty ugly pretty fast.

Boris Badenov
12-24-2018, 10:43 AM
There is no comparison between the non negotiating programs that ALPA has compared to the IBT.

You said ALPA was better than IPA OR IBT. He said he prefers IPA. I presume that this means that he works for UPS. And, uhm, judging by the UPS contract, the IPA seems to be just fine from the cheap seats.

maxjet
12-24-2018, 11:11 AM
You said ALPA was better than IPA OR IBT. He said he prefers IPA. I presume that this means that he works for UPS. And, uhm, judging by the UPS contract, the IPA seems to be just fine from the cheap seats.

No, I wrote that ALPA has better non-negotiations programs than the IBT. I have never mentioned IPA

Twin Wasp
12-24-2018, 11:17 AM
Additionally, in the announcement of the Ameriflight Pilot Pathway program, they reference the Atlas ATP/CTP program. If they are truly developing one, that lends credence to taking new pilots...


Developing, they've had an approved program since March of 2016. They've had theirs two months longer than Delta.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/atp/media/ATP_CTP_Providers.pdf

CallmeJB
12-24-2018, 11:19 AM
So typical for Delta to copy everything that Atlas does.

BrownDoubles
12-24-2018, 11:39 AM
No, I wrote that ALPA has better non-negotiations programs than the IBT. I have never mentioned IPA

deus ex machina mentioned the IPA... and I must agree with Hammer and Boris WRT deus' statement.

hammer pants
12-24-2018, 11:53 AM
Please explain 2 things for me.

1) Were you at a regional when ALPA was your Union?

2) Are you at Atlas?

If you were a commuter pilot I would agree that ALPA was valueless to you. The power will always be where the board members work. The board members are voted in usually by the larger airline. BTW the head of ALPA is a Cargo pilot now. If you are at Atlas, kind of a good deal. If not, very bad deal and you should consider leaving as you will receive even less representation financially than a commuter pilot.

There is no comparison between the non negotiating programs that ALPA has compared to the IBT.

So how are the negotiations progressing over at Atlas? I assume from your comments regarding the higher quality of representation that IBT provides that they must be right on schedule.

One last comment. I watch with interest the negative remarks made about the ATI contract. If Atlas and ABX fail to acquire a new contract by the time ATI gets their next one (possibly) how much more money and benefits will a pilot at ATI have accrued? Just something to think about regarding different strategies.


I wasnít referring to your comment hence the quote of someone else.

maxjet
12-24-2018, 04:03 PM
I wasnít referring to your comment hence the quote of someone else.

Sorry, you are correct. I was referring to IBT and you to IPA. The success of IPA canít be disputed.

JackStraw
12-24-2018, 04:19 PM
Question is, who will be in the running to replace IBT after we lose this arbitration ruling and the pilots turn on teamsters

Boris Badenov
12-24-2018, 06:39 PM
No, I wrote that ALPA has better non-negotiations programs than the IBT. I have never mentioned IPA

Yeah, ya did. You edited your comment. And ok, fair enough, just own it. You said that ALPA was better than IBT or IPA, then you edited your comment. I don't have a dog in this fight, but damned if that doesn't seem like a straight up Lie. Maybe you didn't mean to include the IPA. It's not hard to say "woops, I added a Union I didn't mean to".

maxjet
12-24-2018, 06:43 PM
Yeah, ya did. You edited your comment. And ok, fair enough, just own it. You said that ALPA was better than IBT or IPA, then you edited your comment. I don't have a dog in this fight, but damned if that doesn't seem like a straight up Lie. Maybe you didn't mean to include the IPA. It's not hard to say "woops, I added a Union I didn't mean to".

Dude you are very much mistaken. Must have me mixed up with someone else. So perhaps it is you who should own it.

Boris Badenov
12-24-2018, 06:53 PM
Eh, entirely possible. Too much eggnog maybe. A thousand pardons if I got it wrong. Merry Christmas.

JonnyKnoxville
12-26-2018, 10:55 AM
So typical for Delta to copy everything that Atlas does.

The only thing in common between Delta and Atlas is one Air Line used to employee a group of managers lacking creativity and talent and the other airline still does.

midnightshuttle
12-26-2018, 11:53 AM
ATI was the last CBA signed, your on the same ramp same equipment. Sorry for screw job but you have to accept what others in like equipment are paying plus 5-10% Weíre not brown, purple, or delta. Of you want that kinda pay go there everyones hiring

RyeMex
12-26-2018, 12:42 PM
ATI was the last CBA signed, your on the same ramp same equipment. Sorry for screw job but you have to accept what others in like equipment are paying plus 5-10% Weíre not brown, purple, or delta. Of you want that kinda pay go there everyones hiring

You mean the CBA that was signed after the Omni CBA, yet somehow had worse hourly rates? Sounds like pattern bargaining to me.

Itsajob
12-26-2018, 01:42 PM
Arguing over ALPA/IBT misses the point. The problem isnít the union, the problem is who the union is trying do deal with. Atlas management will ignore either organization resulting in the same outcome. I personally donít see how one brand name union would make a difference over the other, especially considering the size of the Atlas pilot group compared to Delta or Fed Ex.

JackStraw
12-26-2018, 01:52 PM
Arguing over ALPA/IBT misses the point. The problem isn’t the union, the problem is who the union is trying do deal with. Atlas management will ignore either organization resulting in the same outcome. I personally don’t see how one brand name union would make a difference over the other, especially considering the size of the Atlas pilot group compared to Delta or Fed Ex.

The question soon will be ‘was the fight for Section 6 rights be worth it in the end’. If the outcome is a loss for the Atlas Exco there will be a lot of questions that need to be answered; specifically ‘how much did we lose over this time and why did you listen to lawyers who only benefited from this drawn-out process’.

Then again, if the judge rules in IBT’s favor it’s a massive win and will forever change the culture of the company for the better.

Globemaster2827
12-26-2018, 05:12 PM
ALPA can help, but it seems there it too much pride.

Yup... If Atlas switched to Alpa JD and BF would immediately pick up the phone and beg leadership to take FedEx's contract... Who do you fly for again?

JonnyKnoxville
12-26-2018, 05:32 PM
The question soon will be ‘was the fight for Section 6 rights be worth it in the end’. If the outcome is a loss for the Atlas Exco there will be a lot of questions that need to be answered; specifically ‘how much did we lose over this time and why did you listen to lawyers who only benefited from this drawn-out process’.

Then again, if the judge rules in IBT’s favor it’s a massive win and will forever change the culture of the company for the better.

Make no mistake, management's amalgamation plan has never been about taking an alternative path. It has been a conduit for delay. Win or lose, management will only negotiate the next CBA when they have no other choice but to do so. Furthermore, allowing the amalgamation path to take place without a fight ensures zero future at this airline. IF management wins both of the arbitrations, there is no longer any point in ever thinking this will be anything other than the bottom feeder of the industry where management buys airline after airline to perpetually avoid all negotiations. Giving up on this fight for a false perception of a quicker path is giving up on your career.

Elevation
12-26-2018, 07:00 PM
Swapping unions would be a really bad idea right now. ALPA has some advantages over IBT, but IBT has some advantages over ALPA too.

scrupulous
12-26-2018, 11:02 PM
Swapping unions would be a really bad idea right now.


Yes it would be. While most of our problems lie with our current leadership and their failed tactics that are similar repeats of the past merger. I do have some miss givings of the Teamsters, going back to ALPA would be way worse. As a matter of fact, our current EXCO Chair was pro ALPA and pro non-merger back in the day on the first one. Spent most of his time giving lobbying parties to ALPA leadership while his nose was parking neatly in their posteriors to keep the merger from happening despite what he says today. If he had a choice, we would still be battling it out but the desertification of ALPA and the single carrier NMB determination fixed that.

Here is what ALPA said about us ACMI carriers as they did everything to burn us at Atlas while taking our dues money.

ALPA ANTI ACMI (http://747captain.org/sites/default/files/ALPAanti-wetleasing1.pdf)


I've also noted an uptick by the new hires that they are tired of being blamed as the crux of the problem by our leadership. Tired of being asked when they are going to leave etc and they feel are blamed somehow to the ongoing problems the current campaign the EXCO is running of dissuading new hires to come here to gain leverage at the table. A spin off of the "complete operational merger" preached to the Polar guys back in those days they stood on to log jamb everything. With our turn over and the leaderships current tactics, they may only be in office for so long. Much how they got in under the last wave of new hires making promises they couldn't keep.

JonnyKnoxville
12-27-2018, 01:11 AM
Yes it would be. While most of our problems lie with our current leadership and their failed tactics that are similar repeats of the past merger. I do have some miss givings of the Teamsters, going back to ALPA would be way worse. As a matter of fact, our current EXCO Chair was pro ALPA and pro non-merger back in the day on the first one. Spent most of his time giving lobbying parties to ALPA leadership while his nose was parking neatly in their posteriors to keep the merger from happening despite what he says today. If he had a choice, we would still be battling it out but the desertification of ALPA and the single carrier NMB determination fixed that.

Here is what ALPA said about us ACMI carriers as they did everything to burn us at Atlas while taking our dues money.

ALPA ANTI ACMI (http://747captain.org/sites/default/files/ALPAanti-wetleasing1.pdf)


I've also noted an uptick by the new hires that they are tired of being blamed as the crux of the problem by our leadership. Tired of being asked when they are going to leave etc and they feel are blamed somehow to the ongoing problems the current campaign the EXCO is running of dissuading new hires to come here to gain leverage at the table. A spin off of the "complete operational merger" preached to the Polar guys back in those days they stood on to log jamb everything. With our turn over and the leaderships current tactics, they may only be in office for so long. Much how they got in under the last wave of new hires making promises they couldn't keep.


Oh, sudden impact, how we have missed you and your theories.

maxjet
12-27-2018, 04:52 AM
Oh, sudden impact, how we have missed you and your theories.

I do agree with his point that you cannot change unions. Atlas is the one carrier that should never change unions. They ARE 1224. It doesnít get any better than this. Other locals paying for some of their expenses and they are in complete control of their destiny. What might need to change is the strategy. I write might because this internet mess is hopefully just an illusion perpetrated by an above average negotiation team. At times it does seem a little ham handed.

You need to always trust your negotiating committee regardless as to how things appear to be. What do you have to lose? Changing things at this point could only guarantee one thing. A longer negotiation. I wish them well and hope they kick ass.

Itsajob
12-27-2018, 05:16 AM
ALPA isnít going to do anything more for you guys than any other union. ALPA National is all about the money, their money. They love to collect dues and talk about standing firm, but when itís actually time to take a stand they tuck tail and run. They were all talk leading up to the Polar strike until the pilots got released. Once they realized that they were going to have to spend more money than they would recover from such a small group they suddenly encouraged the pilots to take the companies offer. That offer was worse than the contract that they were trying to replace. The problems at Atlas are with who you have to negotiate with. I canít speak to who you have in your union trying to negotiate with them since Iím not there. If youíre not happy with their methods Iíd bet that youíd be better off replacing individual negotiators than replacing the IBT with something else.

iPilot
12-27-2018, 08:57 AM
Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

SaltyDog
12-27-2018, 10:55 AM
Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...

Enjoy....


....the scourge.

LOL
and pray tell how does ALPA prevent management tricks to manipulate and delay under the RLA that these other unions do not?
I'm not an ALPA detractor, far from it, they have produced great things for pilots, but your comments suggest a partisan view and ignores the contributions of other pilot unions that are successful for all of us too.
Oh, and somehow the APA must be terrific as you didn't disparage those fine folks and think they are a weak union. Perhaps folks can explore APA success. :D

Almost There
12-27-2018, 12:51 PM
Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

So True! Could not agree more!

Globemaster2827
12-27-2018, 01:16 PM
Its not like ALPA will airlift a crack team into the seniority list handing us expert MECs and negotiating teams. Regardless of affiliation an airline union is simply made up of pilots on its seniority list.

If you're thinking ALPA national will do anything more than Teamsters national you're deluding yourself. If you want a better union it's up to you, the member.

Nobody wants to look at them-self in the mirror after sprinting through an airport to make their next commercial connection on work day 28 of their current month and realize that they are a Teamster.... Or Alpa... Or IPA... Isn't it easier to just fail and blame someone else? The "teamsters UNION" is made up of its members.

Good post.

JackStraw
12-27-2018, 01:31 PM
Nobody wants to look at them-self in the mirror after sprinting through an airport to make their next commercial connection on work day 28 of their current month and realize that they are a Teamster.... Or Alpa... Or IPA... Isn't it easier to just fail and blame someone else? The "teamsters UNION" is made up of its members.

Good post.
I beg to differ. We are members, but “the union” consists of guys who sign non-disclosure agreements, meet with execs, and make decisions among themselves that alter the direction and the relationship with the extremely hostile management for which we work. 98% of us get no say as to what “the union” does.

I’m not saying I disagree with any decisions they’ve made up to this point, but how can you disagree when you don’t have any information other than what we are told? So, no, we are not The Union. There has to be a lot of trust involved, and I feel like we do give that trust, but at the end of the day we’re only members of the union. Not decision makers.

DC8DRIVER
12-27-2018, 02:00 PM
oh, sudden impact, how we have missed you and your theories.

... Not ... !!

DC8DRIVER
12-27-2018, 02:09 PM
Weak unions like SWAPA, IPA and IBT are easy for the company to manipulate and delay...


... so you're saying that Southwest and UPS have weak unions and poor contracts? What universe do you live in?

You're making it easy to disregard your posts ...

scrupulous
12-27-2018, 09:11 PM
I beg to differ. We are members, but ďthe unionĒ consists of guys who sign non-disclosure agreements, meet with execs, and make decisions among themselves that alter the direction and the relationship with the extremely hostile management for which we work. 98% of us get no say as to what ďthe unionĒ does.

Iím not saying I disagree with any decisions theyíve made up to this point, but how can you disagree when you donít have any information other than what we are told? So, no, we are not The Union. There has to be a lot of trust involved, and I feel like we do give that trust, but at the end of the day weíre only members of the union. Not decision makers.

This is a common complaint. Rightfully so.

Particularly after the passage of an amendment (FPL) that affects how they pay themselves was buried. How they have directed all union social media to a facebook page that isn't an official contact point to the union that also restricts which members can access it let alone the ongoing security issues there, removed access to air things by membership on a private union web forum, restricted questions on crew calls to pre-approved issues, plus a few other things that are not quite legal on a few levels determined by a recent court judgment, let alone misleading members in a direction that might find themselves getting section 19 (fired) on leaderships insinuations versus facts.

While I might sound like a company stooge, I have spent decades trying to keep our guys employed and not doing stupid things proven to get them burned and keeping our leadership honest. It's a set out game that our current leadership is happy to burn you at a whim while they compensate themselves well during it. Collateral damage they don't care about under this administration.

Our current leadership says everything is OK and AUDITED at the highest levels, but this recent hidden determination of the outcome of $1.7+ million dollar felony level embezzlement under Joint Council 041 leadership of which 1224 is part of says something different. NO JAIL TIME or submission to the criminal courts, just a retirement and never to take part again in the union sentence.

Joint Council 041 Judgement (http://747captain.org/sites/default/files/ohioconferencesentencing-1.pdf)

Despite this, I'm advocating Teamsters knowing what I know of ALPA while having been a volunteer there also. ALPA has a lot of dirty secrets also, but better kept.

Anyhow, look into the vested interests of our leadership back on the union site under the LM-2 reports posted on their forums on who is getting paid what. That is unless they have deleted them recently.

The forums are still open, although only ONE non-Atlas moderator is provided to approve posts Atlas member posts. The Atlas EXCO has removed all of our moderators.

scrupulous
12-27-2018, 10:04 PM
... Not ... !!

Just how many MED leave days do you have left or are you just getting the membership donated MED days selectively granted by the EXCO as repayment for your statements at the expense of others getting them?

Self interest first ???????????????

As a cancer, gunshot, TB , and etc survivor never touching the donated MED bank, I among others are curious if your self motivated for this particular union administration?


I'm not advocating a union change. Just a change in leadership.Current leadership actions has guaranteed at best an arbitration over the next two years or a Sect 6 over the next 4-6 years.

FR8Dog7
12-28-2018, 02:24 AM
I see nothing has changed since I left.

JonnyKnoxville
12-28-2018, 04:42 AM
I see nothing has changed since I left.

Unfortunately, every pilot group has their special 1%. Even with different screen names, they canít hide their crazy.

tomgoodman
12-28-2018, 07:43 AM
This intra-Union fight is getting too personal. Take it to PMs.

dutch747
12-28-2018, 02:27 PM
Make no mistake, management's amalgamation plan has never been about taking an alternative path. It has been a conduit for delay. Win or lose, management will only negotiate the next CBA when they have no other choice but to do so. Furthermore, allowing the amalgamation path to take place without a fight ensures zero future at this airline. IF management wins both of the arbitrations, there is no longer any point in ever thinking this will be anything other than the bottom feeder of the industry where management buys airline after airline to perpetually avoid all negotiations. Giving up on this fight for a false perception of a quicker path is giving up on your career.

This is one route they will could take. I'm betting they will try to bypass the union leadership and present our pilot group with an increase in wages, a few minor changes to work rules and status quo on everything else. All while yelling "LET THEM VOTE!!!"


Same thing that was done at Omni and Kalitta.


Whatever the path, Atlas Air is not a employee friendly place to hang your hat.

scrupulous
12-28-2018, 10:37 PM
This is one route they will could take. I'm betting they will try to bypass the union leadership and present our pilot group with an increase in wages, a few minor changes to work rules and status quo on everything else. All while yelling "LET THEM VOTE!!!"


Same thing that was done at Omni and Kalitta.


Whatever the path, Atlas Air is not a employee friendly place to hang your hat.

Neither is Amazon/DHL and I'm willing to bet they want to keep wages down also and are willing to drag this on also or start moving planes to other carriers similar to what they did during the Atlas - Polar merger (whipsawing). I do agree they will try to go to the membership directly. That's in the old playbook and used often.

While our current leadership, which includes the guy your responding to, use the propaganda of "the company is suing the membership" for sympathy. They failed to mention we conducted an illegal work action in one case despite being warned by long term committee members (luckily we didn't get fined this time as other unions have - just told go back to work) and sued again due to never completing the company's grievance on arbitration. We just ignored it and of course lost that court case and ordered to complete the grievance process where we still wait for the arbiters decision. Just what did the EXCO expect the company to do to those actions, come crying to them? The EXCO new we would be headed to court by ignoring it and the court subsequently made us go thru the process later anyway. Wasting more time ( @1 year) thinking it was leverage somehow while the metal keeps moving anyway? I'm guessing arbitration and not Section 6 will be the award by arbiter reading our CBA section 1. I imagine Southerns is no better but can't say for certain at the moment. Although Sect. 6 would be the best leverage for us all. I just don't see it in the cards looking at language and history of past awards.

We need to stop repeating the failures of the past Atlas-Polar merger again. Similar failed tactics being used again. I believe only two on the ExCo were here to remember those days and only one of them (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/08/14/Northwest-pilot-testifies-he-was-not-drunk-during-flight/8667650606400/) was actually doing union work which was mostly lobbying ALPA and having parties for their favor which ultimately landed us at Teamsters for their actions when Atlas members retaliated against ALPA's spurning us for being ACMI. The remaining ExCo members, just being new guys so to speak, not having experienced the past merger relying on the Chairs side of the story which is as reliable as our POTUS statements.
(https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/)
While we all have a little bit of the below video, most of us realize our limitations and gravitate towards safety. It's in our training.

Then we have those that wind up in leadership from time to time and screw up decades of dedicated committee members work and say "Nailed it!" as everything burns down around them.

E7NdrkKD8Vk

Globemaster2827
12-28-2018, 11:21 PM
Neither is Amazon/DHL and I'm willing to bet they want to keep wages down also and are willing to drag this on also or start moving planes to other carriers similar to what they did during the Atlas - Polar merger (whipsawing). I do agree they will try to go to the membership directly. That's in the old playbook and used often.

While our current leadership, which includes the guy your responding to, use the propaganda of "the company is suing the membership" for sympathy. They failed to mention we conducted an illegal work action in one case despite being warned by long term committee members (luckily we didn't get fined this time as other unions have - just told go back to work) and sued again due to never completing the company's grievance on arbitration. We just ignored it and of course lost that court case and ordered to complete the grievance process where we still wait for the arbiters decision. Just what did the EXCO expect the company to do to those actions, come crying to them? The EXCO new we would be headed to court by ignoring it and the court subsequently made us go thru the process later anyway. Wasting more time ( @1 year) thinking it was leverage somehow while the metal keeps moving anyway? I'm guessing arbitration and not Section 6 will be the award by arbiter reading our CBA section 1. I imagine Southerns is no better but can't say for certain at the moment. Although Sect. 6 would be the best leverage for us all. I just don't see it in the cards looking at language and history of past awards.

We need to stop repeating the failures of the past Atlas-Polar merger again. Similar failed tactics being used again. I believe only two on the ExCo were here to remember those days and only one of them (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/08/14/Northwest-pilot-testifies-he-was-not-drunk-during-flight/8667650606400/) was actually doing union work which was mostly lobbying ALPA and having parties for their favor which ultimately landed us at Teamsters for their actions when Atlas members retaliated against ALPA's spurning us for being ACMI. The remaining ExCo members, just being new guys so to speak, not having experienced the past merger relying on the Chairs side of the story which is as reliable as our POTUS statements.
(https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/)
While we all have a little bit of the below video, most of us realize our limitations and gravitate towards safety. It's in our training.

Then we have those that wind up in leadership from time to time and screw up decades of dedicated committee members work and say "Nailed it!" as everything burns down around them.

E7NdrkKD8Vk

Your EXCO are comprised of morons. They should've simply agreed to merge the Southern and Atlas contracts in 2016. Just think... Atlas would have a $180 12 year 747 Captain rate (less for everything else) , a 2.5% 401k match on a 10% contribution as Southern had no retirement, a 19 day work month with 14 day "Vacation Lines", a 5 year deal where management can then buy Centurion in 2021, a 61 hour guarantee, a trip rig of 2.425 a day, no business class international travel (nobody else in ACMI had it two years ago) and 26 hour work days. Yup....... If only the moronic Atlas Exco had simply amalgamated 2 years ago...

The sad part is the above scenario was probable almost 3 years ago but now isn't thanks to the LOA from last Spring. You're on here either admitting that the above contract is what you wanted or you think that Atlas's management would've given you better out of the goodness of their hearts with Atlas having the best contract in ACMI prior to the K4 deal. The K4 deal was only marginally better than Atlas's current deal given that they didn't get rig or any improvements on their retirement. The other ACMI carriers got their contracts out of section 6 as opposed to arbitration of merging with bankruptcy contracts.

nitefr8dog
12-29-2018, 03:28 AM
[QUOTE=scrupulous;2733103]Neither is Amazon/DHL .

Who is Amazon/DHL? Neither of those companies have airlines.

742Dash
12-29-2018, 03:35 AM
...Your EXCO are comprised of morons. They should've simply agreed to merge the Southern and Atlas contracts in 2016. Just think... Atlas would have a $180 12 year 747 Captain rate (less for everything else) , a 2.5% 401k match on a 10% contribution as Southern had no retirement, a 19 day work month with 14 day "Vacation Lines", a 5 year deal where management can then buy Centurion in 2021, a 61 hour guarantee, a trip rig of 2.425 a day, no business class international travel (nobody else in ACMI had it two years ago) and 26 hour work days. Yup....... If only the moronic Atlas Exco had simply amalgamated 2 years ago...

The problem with this argument is that we have been down the Section 1 road before, and the result of the Atlas/Polar arbitration was NOT as you just described. Not even close. The resulting pay rates were higher than either contract, business class survived and so forth.

There were three contracts in 2011; Atlas, Polar and the arbitrated result. They are available for anyone who wants to dig for them.

JonnyKnoxville
12-29-2018, 05:33 AM
This is one route they will could take. I'm betting they will try to bypass the union leadership and present our pilot group with an increase in wages, a few minor changes to work rules and status quo on everything else. All while yelling "LET THEM VOTE!!!"


Same thing that was done at Omni and Kalitta.


Whatever the path, Atlas Air is not a employee friendly place to hang your hat.

I completely agree that this is a strategy they will attempt. Higher hourly pay rates with most everything else the same and they will blame the union publicly for not allowing it to go to a vote.

JonnyKnoxville
12-29-2018, 05:52 AM
The problem with this argument is that we have been down the Section 1 road before, and the result of the Atlas/Polar arbitration was NOT as you just described. Not even close. The resulting pay rates were higher than either contract, business class survived and so forth.

There were three contracts in 2011; Atlas, Polar and the arbitrated result. They are available for anyone who wants to dig for them.

...and therein lies the rub. You said "the resulting pay rates were higher". Those higher pay rates were as a result of gutting the meaningful profit sharing of the time. Bill Flynn told investors on the first analyst call after the 2011 CBA was signed in that the total additional cost for management of the Polar/Atlas CBA that was just signed in was 6-7%. That's right...a 6-7% increase when the pilot group as a whole has a total compensation package around 50-60% less than the other pilot groups.

You can increase pay rates and still take an overall pay cut. That is exactly what management wants to do now.

Eliminate gateway travel and hotels in base.
Eliminate all domestic catering.
Eliminate all instructor positions in the training center and turn those over to low paid contract instructors.

These are just a few of they things we know management wants to monetize for us. I am sure that if we are forced to go down the amalgamation path, we will find that list growing substantially.

With all of those management savings, they want to give us a small "raise". Hourly pay rates are only one point of comparison and are meaningless without looking at the total picture.

Certainly, you don't just want to sell what little current benefits we do have and monetize those into an hourly rate increase? Especially at a time when we have a total compensation package that is paying us 50 cents on the dollar?

RyeMex
12-29-2018, 06:13 AM
You can increase pay rates and still take an overall pay cut. That is exactly what management wants to do now.



This right here. Iím a 3rd year FO at Atlas and I have made less every year since Iíve been here, in spite of my hourly rate going up. Hourly rates mean absolute jack-sh**.

742Dash
12-29-2018, 06:44 AM
...and therein lies the rub. You said "the resulting pay rates were higher". Those higher pay rates were as a result of gutting the meaningful profit sharing of the time.

The profit sharing program did not change with the 2011 contract.

There are a lot of rosy memories of big profit sharing checks, but they were not large during the bankruptcy and recovery. And before that they had been inflated by Shuyler's creative accounting. In addition the ancient profit sharing program is tied only to Atlas Air, and predates AAWH. So all of the earnings under the expanding umbrella of companies are excluded. This has been understood for some time by those paying attention.

JonnyKnoxville
12-29-2018, 07:55 AM
The profit sharing program did not change with the 2011 contract.

There are a lot of rosy memories of big profit sharing checks, but they were not large during the bankruptcy and recovery. And before that they had been inflated by Shuyler's creative accounting. In addition the ancient profit sharing program is tied only to Atlas Air, and predates AAWH. So all of the earnings under the expanding umbrella of companies are excluded. This has been understood for some time by those paying attention.

I am fully aware of the AAWW versus Atlas Air, Inc. profit sharing. However, I guess I wasn't paying attention to the rest of the details in the 2002 CBA on profit sharing. When did the $75 million carve-out from profit sharing start? Okay, I just looked it up to make sure. The Atlas Air 2002 CBA provided profit sharing at a 10% of pretax profits with no carveout whatsoever. The last three years, based on the 2011 CBA calculation (with carveout), we have gotten 1.6%, 1.4%, and 1.3% profit sharing, respectfully. Therefore, we have taken more than an 8% pay cut in profit sharing by the changing of the terms of profit sharing from CBA 2002 to CBA 2011.

So, if it were up to you, I guess we would be heading down the "goodness of their heart" path from management that Globemaster2827 so appropriately laid out.

Ronaldo
12-29-2018, 08:21 AM
This is one route they will could take. I'm betting they will try to bypass the union leadership and present our pilot group with an increase in wages, a few minor changes to work rules and status quo on everything else. All while yelling "LET THEM VOTE!!!"


Same thing that was done at Omni and Kalitta.


Whatever the path, Atlas Air is not a employee friendly place to hang your hat.

Iíd add that the Airline Division and Rick D, did it 2.5 times at IBT Local 357 as well. When the company wants a contract or vote, theyíll have one, because DB will just bypass the N.C. or eboard.

So, I have to assume the company isnít desperate at all and weíd still be sitting on our spheres if we were ALPA, UTU, etc.

Globemaster2827
12-29-2018, 08:38 AM
I am fully aware of the AAWW versus Atlas Air, Inc. profit sharing. However, I guess I wasn't paying attention to the rest of the details in the 2002 CBA on profit sharing. When did the $75 million carve-out from profit sharing start? Okay, I just looked it up to make sure. The Atlas Air 2002 CBA provided profit sharing at a 10% of pretax profits with no carveout whatsoever. The last three years, based on the 2011 CBA calculation (with carveout), we have gotten 1.6%, 1.4%, and 1.3% profit sharing, respectfully. Therefore, we have taken more than an 8% pay cut in profit sharing by the changing of the terms of profit sharing from CBA 2002 to CBA 2011.

So, if it were up to you, I guess we would be heading down the "goodness of their heart" path from management that Globemaster2827 so appropriately laid out.

Yup... Looks like you could've just accepted to Amalgamate your profit sharing with Southern's... Instead of $500 a year FOs would get $150 a year... I will say that at some point half of nothing is nothing.

I do know that I left out several issues where Atlas's contract would've been worse. Note that none of them have disputed the 19 days on the road (plus commute), the 50% retirement cut (from an already terrible retirement plan) or the "Vacation Line" of 14 days. If only Atlas's Exco had agreed to all of this 3 years ago... You'd only be 2 years away from your management buying Amerijet and Amalgamating contracts.

742Dash
12-29-2018, 09:26 AM
When did the $75 million carve-out from profit sharing start? .

I stand corrected with regard to the carve-out.

That said, the profit sharing was never seen as a substitute for pay rates. And many of us were surprised that it ended up back in the 2011 contract, since by then the holding company structure was firmly in place.

gurugee
12-29-2018, 09:28 AM
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?

sky jet
12-29-2018, 09:32 AM
I'm going to just go and grab some popcorn and a beer. Please don't start abusing this guy until I get back.

Fillmore Slim
12-29-2018, 10:04 AM
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?


Welcome to the party F&H. MY EXCO SPEAKS FOR ME!

JonnyKnoxville
12-29-2018, 10:11 AM
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?

Both the 747 and the 767. Please do your homework before leaving your regional. It is really bad here despite the lies the recruiters are telling people before and during the interview.

We have hired a tremendous amount of pilots in the past few years, so upgrade times will be increasing rather significantly as many first officers on the list are unfortunately starting to see.

The next CBA, despite what you were probably told by recruiters, is potentially still years from coming to fruition.

Pay: Plan on $1,600 for your first four months, and $3,980 total gross (before deductions) compensation per a month after that for your first year.

Second Year B767
Plan on $5208 a month total gross (before deductions) compensation

Second Year B747
Plan on $6200 a month total gross (before deductions) compensation


Most RJ Captains who come here find out that they took a pay cut from their left seat RJ job that they won't make back until they upgrade.

Oh, and you will be gone 18-19 days a month for work. (17 day trip plus travel)

RyeMex
12-29-2018, 10:26 AM
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?

I took a pretty big pay cut coming to Atlas from what I thought was a crappy part 135 gig. Iím a 3rd year FO, and I have never come close to making what I made at my old job. In fact, I have made less money every year that Iíve been here. Again, as a 3rd year FO, I donít expect to be able to hold the left seat for at least 18-24 months. Also, if you donít already have your TPIC time, this place is a trap that you will be stuck in for a very long time. We donít block many hours on the 767 (which is the junior Captain fleet). Probably about 200-250 hours a year. So, if you donít have any TPIC and need your 1,000 hours for a real job, you would be stuck at Atlas for anywhere from 8-10 years before you had the PIC time to leave for greener pastures.

PM me if you have other questions.

gurugee
12-29-2018, 10:27 AM
thank you very much for the info.

CallmeJB
12-29-2018, 10:29 AM
I stand corrected with regard to the carve-out.

That said, the profit sharing was never seen as a substitute for pay rates. And many of us were surprised that it ended up back in the 2011 contract, since by then the holding company structure was firmly in place.

Tell that to Bob U (Union leadership) at the 2011 contract road show in the Miami Marriott. Right from his mouth:

"Profit sharing has been nice but it is fleeting. This new contract provides the profit sharing money in fixed and growing payrates, so the money we have been getting from profit sharing is now guaranteed in our paychecks."

He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.

And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.



The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.

The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:

How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?
Of course, the company is asking themselves the same question.

We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?

How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?

The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?

2019 will be an interesting year.



Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.

JonnyKnoxville
12-29-2018, 07:02 PM
Tell that to Bob U (Union leadership) at the 2011 contract road show in the Miami Marriott. Right from his mouth:



He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.

And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.



The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.

The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:

How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?
Of course, the company is asking themselves the same question.

We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?

How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?

The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?

2019 will be an interesting year.



Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.

Wow CalmeJB, excellent post and spot on! The pay rate carrot is coming. Will we fall for it?

scrupulous
12-29-2018, 11:29 PM
[QUOTE=scrupulous;2733103]Neither is Amazon/DHL .

Who is Amazon/DHL? Neither of those companies have airlines.


They actually own a number of the aircraft that are then leased to and flown by ACMI carriers. They lease the A/C to ACMI companies and pay them to manage them under those certificates like Atlas/Polar/ABX/Astar/etc. When they are bad for one reason or the other they take them from one carrier and move the A/C to another carrier along with the work to another carrier. I think Comair was similar in which Knoxville hails from. They can also just cancel for lack of performance and give the work to someone else to include aircraft the carriers own and operate for Amazon/DHL. They do this just to not put all their eggs in one basket and keep labor costs down. Done at the majors via the commuters and freighters also like FedEx Feeder etc.


The problem with this argument is that we have been down the Section 1 road before, and the result of the Atlas/Polar arbitration was NOT as you just described. Not even close. The resulting pay rates were higher than either contract, business class survived and so forth.

There were three contracts in 2011; Atlas, Polar and the arbitrated result. They are available for anyone who wants to dig for them.


Exactly! The feud during the Atlas-Polar groups didn't help a bit either, we probably could of stair stepped contracts upwards a bit but got bogged down in the union-union fight there of no way we are going to merge by one group and the years delayed ending up in a desertification of ALPA. So Polar's two strikes and reluctance to merge only brought them up to Atlas CBA parity by the recorded words of the current ExCo Chair during a General Membership Meeting call. Having said that, I have to say it was the ExCo Chair who said it and he is not known for telling the whole or some of the truth at any given time, even now. He should be running for senate or congress where he would shine instead of being a 1224 hired business agent milking the system after 7/19!


Talking about mergers, I'm personally glad Southern got the parity deal knowing what I know of the Section 1 of our CBA. It brings the bookends of the two CBA's up to ours and Atlas can't use Southern's CBA as the bottom end of the scale if we end up in arbitration. Of course, that did negate the current strategy of keeping every new hire hopefuls away from Atlas/Southern to build leverage.



The profit sharing program did not change with the 2011 contract.

There are a lot of rosy memories of big profit sharing checks, but they were not large during the bankruptcy and recovery. And before that they had been inflated by Shuyler's creative accounting. In addition the ancient profit sharing program is tied only to Atlas Air, and predates AAWH. So all of the earnings under the expanding umbrella of companies are excluded. This has been understood for some time by those paying attention.


Quickly forgotten by most. I was never really a proponent of it knowing they could make early expense payments, stock buy backs, other acquisitions like Polar to keep the money out of our hands in the profit sharing scheme. Drawback of arbitration but Sect 1 left us little choice but rely on company leaning arbiters and the fact a lot of guys wanted it but didn't realize that the company could spend the money on themselves first before entering the profit sharing scheme.


I'm going to just go and grab some popcorn and a beer. Please don't start abusing this guy until I get back.


Oh man, so true! But that is the current tactic for leverage by the union that is supposed to increase leverage for the membership. We have long ago started eating our own at the beginning of Knoxville's administration.


Tell that to Bob U (Union leadership) at the 2011 contract road show in the Miami Marriott. Right from his mouth:

He went on to explain how the Section 1 process gave the union limited leverage to negotiate new language, and that we should be pleased the the *Company's recent profitability* has resulted in us being able to secure a contract with pay north of $200/hour.

And he was right. And we were happy. And the pilots generally high-fived each other for being in the right place at the right time. Ohhhh what a difference a few years makes.

The current leadership knows that the section 6 process will result in a MUCH better contract than the section 1 process.

The best way to get the best contract is section 6. The second best way to get the best contract is the passage of time, as the rising tide around us will benefit our new CBA no matter how we get there. The open question is:

How much will the passage of time cost us while we are still operating under the 2011 CBA?

Of course, the company is asking themselves the same question.

We each will have to decide as individuals how much appetite we have for a prolonged process vs. taking a simple payrate increase right now. The company will offer this payrate increase publicly sometime in the next several months. Will you be smiling (the payrates will be very good)? Or will you accept lower pay for longer to get to the real pot of gold, and say "My negotiating committee speaks for me"?

How many of us are in it for the long run? How many of us are in it just for time-in-type and trying to move on? Who is more likely to stand firm, patiently?

The company has played their cards very well so far. By my math they are planning to hire 700+ pilots in 2019, which will sustain their growth even if our attrition triples. They have demonstrated that they are willing to wait it out. Are we?

2019 will be an interesting year.

Either way, I think we can put to bed the question of switching IBT to ALPA or anything else. Of all the choices we have... that one would be catastrophic right now. But it wouldn't be the first time that pilots have been short sighted.


I'm glad you prefer to stay at IBT. I know what ALPA did to us. Been thinking about maybe sending out the failed/retracted promises of ALPA leadership to Atlas along with about 2GB of other stuff. Figure I should let that wound heal though unless any more repeats of that history come fourth.

"Waiting out" has some give and take. It cost us during the Atlas-Polar merger by years to end up at the same point and just a little ahead of most at the time. We could have fit another contract in during that protracted debacle of union to union hate.

We seem to be repeating that now since they seem to be manning the planes as they come on to their current commitment to Amazon. Are they working hard at it and subbing the uncovered out, yes. But the metal is moving. We are short of pilots, but they don't mind lowering the requirements to fill the seats and run constant classes. Just that many more lower paid guys as others move on doing "Touch and Goes" here to another carrier.

One subject you touched on is duration to a final contract. While we have initially have a lack of pilots boom right now helping us at Atlas, how long will it last? Looking at the stock market and numerous other indicators by experts, we might be heading to a recession again. Economy slows down, loads go down flights are decreased and etc. Back side of the curve for us. Something to consider and cycles are usually repetitive.

Do I want arbitration? NO, but I'm not naive enough to think it won't get shoved down our throats looking at Sect 1 of our CBA, history and knowing how arbiters work. I truly hope our negotiating committee is working on plan "B", "C", and "D" other than us sitting in a corner kicking our feet and holding our breath like a five year old expecting to get what they want versus the cards we are dealt under the RLA and CBA. Hopefully the current arbitration will pull a rabbit out of a hat for us. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm relying on history and facts. Guess we will wait and see. I noted some guys taking UB mid Jan. Maybe they are expecting some info from the arbiter, coming up with another plan or just pulling down some UB days at home.


I am also sad to say that I'm disappointed that we have ExCo, Stewards, and committee members on this site discussing this in public thinking they are anonymous. You are exposing us as a union. The Corporate Atlas social media department is monitoring this. While you should have never crippled the union site by "anonymously" migrating exchanges to the facebook page which you were warned about as a security problem and published as such by others solely to limit any membership push back, we have become an open book to the company as to the temperature of the membership although upcoming arbitration will determine where we will go. There are fixes, not absolute, but at least they would have to really work at it.

White Cap
12-30-2018, 01:34 AM
This is one route they will could take. I'm betting they will try to bypass the union leadership and present our pilot group with an increase in wages, a few minor changes to work rules and status quo on everything else. All while yelling "LET THEM VOTE!!!"


Same thing that was done at Omni and Kalitta.


Whatever the path, Atlas Air is not a employee friendly place to hang your hat.

You are correct, sir. This seems to be the general philosophy now with union busting attorneys.

nitefr8dog
12-30-2018, 05:25 AM
As I said neither of those companies OWN airlines....there is quite a bit more to owning an airline than just owning aircraft. He!! Wells Fargo owns aircraft, engines etc...they do not own a airline any more Amazon or DHL..domestic anyway.

scrupulous
12-30-2018, 05:23 PM
As I said neither of those companies OWN airlines....there is quite a bit more to owning an airline than just owning aircraft. He!! Wells Fargo owns aircraft, engines etc...they do not own a airline any more Amazon or DHL..domestic anyway.


Why would they "want" to own an airline? They just put their freight on an airplane they dry lease to an airline for a token amount and say "make it go between here and there." Screw up enough and I'll cancel the lease, stop your management fees for handling it, and move my aircraft to airline X, Y, or Z. Works the same if the airline has it's own A/C like some of the Atlas ones also by canceling the contract. They do this(DHL) around with world with many different airlines.

Anyway, DHL does own 49% of Polar which is owned by Atlas. Amazon has warrants for 20% of Atlas Air with an option for 10% more at $37.50 per share but they have not exercised them yet. Probably waiting for the stock price to move.

So one does own in part an airline and the other can own in part an airline when they exercise their warrants.

Not sure your point other than pointing out what is an airline. I'm pointing out how they can screw with our jobs working us against each other and how they have been doing it in the past. Been their a few times.

nitefr8dog
12-31-2018, 08:32 AM
Why would they "want" to own an airline? They just put their freight on an airplane they dry lease to an airline for a token amount and say "make it go between here and there." Screw up enough and I'll cancel the lease, stop your management fees for handling it, and move my aircraft to airline X, Y, or Z. Works the same if the airline has it's own A/C like some of the Atlas ones also by canceling the contract. They do this(DHL) around with world with many different airlines.

Anyway, DHL does own 49% of Polar which is owned by Atlas. Amazon has warrants for 20% of Atlas Air with an option for 10% more at $37.50 per share but they have not exercised them yet. Probably waiting for the stock price to move.

So one does own in part an airline and the other can own in part an airline when they exercise their warrants.

Not sure your point other than pointing out what is an airline. I'm pointing out how they can screw with our jobs working us against each other and how they have been doing it in the past. Been their a few times.

Amazon and DHL have little to do with the jobs at ABX.....its all management . Little man syndrome, even if it costs more money or lost profits. To caught up in being able to say " because I said so" even if it costs millions more. At one time crews where being paid 1250$ more each day for Captain's and 750$ for FO's instead for putting catering on which was the unions proposal. The answer..no catering! That will teach am! ABX could have bought a catering company for what they spent in a 3 mo period until they fixed the lines. That is one of a thousand different events that their attorneys have convinced them they can break the union over. The crews just laughed and bought better catering.

aviatorhi
01-01-2019, 11:11 AM
The old "shinyjetsyndrome" has become the "shiny747syndrome".

atpcliff
01-01-2019, 11:23 AM
hello guys !
i got an interview with atlas jan- 15 th 2019.
they got intervies on 14 /15/16 of january
any idea ;what equipment they are hiring these days 747/767?

Your basic understanding is wrong. The equipment is 747/777/767/737. 777 and 737 are Southern, and 747/767 are Atlas. Many of our prospects have been offered Southern class dates. Most have said no, and held out for an Atlas class date, or realized none of the above is a better option. In my opinion, they stack up like this:
Atlas 747
Southern 777
Atlas 767
Southern 737.
Read all the threads about Atlas/Southern and be informed.
PM me if you have specific questions.

deus ex machina
01-01-2019, 11:36 AM
The old "shinyjetsyndrome" has become the "shiny747syndrome".

It's not what you fly, it's who you fly for....

reading this thread, Atlas guys are in a netherworld... how can you explain something is better out there when Atlas guys don't even know what better is....

If they want to be convinced that ALPA sucks, go for it... but ALPA sucks less than everyone else, simply due to the resources... the IBT doesn't have near the funds, institutional knowledge and resources as ALPA... If you don't have the funds and ability to strike the company owns the negotiation process.. combine that with Trump NMB and the only thing that is going to compel management to negotiate is labor peace and stability... if they don't see that value then you guys are screwed....

As I said... WB FOs at my carrier make more than B747 CAs at Atlas.. and that is just the pay rate... the work rules, benefits and retirement will make you weep.

But hey, you're flying the Queen. :rolleyes:

WhipWhitaker
01-01-2019, 01:45 PM
Your basic understanding is wrong. The equipment is 747/777/767/737. 777 and 737 are Southern, and 747/767 are Atlas. Many of our prospects have been offered Southern class dates. Most have said no, and held out for an Atlas class date, or realized none of the above is a better option. In my opinion, they stack up like this:
Atlas 747
Southern 777
Atlas 767
Southern 737.
Read all the threads about Atlas/Southern and be informed.
PM me if you have specific questions.

All accurate, and Iíd bet the W2s look about the same now for 74/77 and 76/73. Guys looking specifically to be in ANC feel free to pm me as well.

DC8DRIVER
01-01-2019, 06:28 PM
It's not what you fly, it's who you fly for....

reading this thread, Atlas guys are in a netherworld... how can you explain something is better out there when Atlas guys don't even know what better is....

If they want to be convinced that ALPA sucks, go for it... but ALPA sucks less than everyone else, simply due to the resources... the IBT doesn't have near the funds, institutional knowledge and resources as ALPA... If you don't have the funds and ability to strike the company owns the negotiation process.. combine that with Trump NMB and the only thing that is going to compel management to negotiate is labor peace and stability... if they don't see that value then you guys are screwed....

As I said... WB FOs at my carrier make more than B747 CAs at Atlas.. and that is just the pay rate... the work rules, benefits and retirement will make you weep.

But hey, you're flying the Queen. :rolleyes:

Not quite sure what point you are making here.

Atlas pilots absolutely do know what "better" is which is why those of us who haven't yet left, have chosen to stay and fight, or simply can't leave for one reason or another are fighting tooth and nail for a better contract. We continuously try to point out to Atlas applicants that they should NEVER take a job because of the equipment. We say this over and over.

As for ALPA, virtually every Atlas pilot has been an ALPA member at one point or another. We all know what ALPA is and what they have to offer. And we know that a union has practically nothing to do with the national organization and everything to do with the pilot group and their local leadership. I say this as a former 20+ year ALPA member and now as a 7+ year Teamster.

As far as a strike goes, the size of the coffers has nothing to do with whether or not Atlas pilots go on strike. You should read up a little on what conditions must exist in order for a pilot union to go on strike. It has nothing to do with financial resources.

Now, I don't know what airline you fly for and I don't really care. What I do know is that you don't really need to come to the Atlas pilot web boards and brag about just how much more you make and how much better your working conditions are. We are all very much aware that this is true at most other airlines.

If, on the other hand, you ever have something constructive or encouraging to say, then by all means, let us know!

JonnyKnoxville
01-01-2019, 07:39 PM
It's not what you fly, it's who you fly for....

reading this thread, Atlas guys are in a netherworld... how can you explain something is better out there when Atlas guys don't even know what better is....

If they want to be convinced that ALPA sucks, go for it... but ALPA sucks less than everyone else, simply due to the resources... the IBT doesn't have near the funds, institutional knowledge and resources as ALPA... If you don't have the funds and ability to strike the company owns the negotiation process.. combine that with Trump NMB and the only thing that is going to compel management to negotiate is labor peace and stability... if they don't see that value then you guys are screwed....

As I said... WB FOs at my carrier make more than B747 CAs at Atlas.. and that is just the pay rate... the work rules, benefits and retirement will make you weep.

But hey, you're flying the Queen. :rolleyes:

Maybe when ALPA can deliver a contract that pays their entire pilot group the total compensation that the IPA Union has achieved for their pilot group, then you can climb back on your high horse. For now, you and your ALPA carrier are playing second fiddle at best.

scrupulous
01-02-2019, 01:44 AM
Amazon and DHL have little to do with the jobs at ABX.....its all management . Little man syndrome, even if it costs more money or lost profits. To caught up in being able to say " because I said so" even if it costs millions more. At one time crews where being paid 1250$ more each day for Captain's and 750$ for FO's instead for putting catering on which was the unions proposal. The answer..no catering! That will teach am! ABX could have bought a catering company for what they spent in a 3 mo period until they fixed the lines. That is one of a thousand different events that their attorneys have convinced them they can break the union over. The crews just laughed and bought better catering.

Doesn't sound too unlike:


Atlas Air Crew Services AACS(crew leasing company in STN union busting Atlas union).
Global Supply System GSS (new airline in Europe created by Atlas for union busting Atlas union).
FSI the third party company our flight attendants are hired and work under.
Using F&E maintenance with only a few actual A&P's hired by Atlas.
ETC
ETC
ETC


At least the first two got taken out under IBT before we went backwards with this administration.

We were slowly cleaning them out until this recently un-elected administration via a last minute E-board expansion of the Atlas ExCo numbers (5 to 7) to the number running for office. Thus no election, just placement of the 7 raised hands vs an election of 5. No one could be bounced.

It's not what you fly, it's who you fly for....

reading this thread, Atlas guys are in a netherworld... how can you explain something is better out there when Atlas guys don't even know what better is....

If they want to be convinced that ALPA sucks, go for it... but ALPA sucks less than everyone else, simply due to the resources... the IBT doesn't have near the funds, institutional knowledge and resources as ALPA... If you don't have the funds and ability to strike the company owns the negotiation process.. combine that with Trump NMB and the only thing that is going to compel management to negotiate is labor peace and stability... if they don't see that value then you guys are screwed....

As I said... WB FOs at my carrier make more than B747 CAs at Atlas.. and that is just the pay rate... the work rules, benefits and retirement will make you weep.

But hey, you're flying the Queen. :rolleyes:


We spent a number of years fighting among ourselves (Atlas-Polar) under ALPA and it collectively severely stagnated our contract growth. ALPA picked one side and sabotaged the larger group. "ALPA Unit 1 (https://alpaunit1.org/)" even told us about it and that verified what Prater as ALPA's leader at the time was doing to us. It cost us years in an improved CBA for our now unified group of 10 airlines under Local 1224. Many of which operate for DHL/Amazon.

Our stagnation was a result of ALPA's and the the smaller carrier's hate of the ACMI world though they were happy to take our dues money while shooting us collectively in the foot. (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154642526413013&key=9b6f296ed5808a533a8c200e2b2032c0&libId=jqf1o8330100a0tt000DAfwmrthng&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-5.html&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2F747captain.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault% 2Ffiles%2FALPAanti-wetleasing1.pdf&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-6.html&title=Atlas%20pilots%20deserve%20better%3F%20Teams ters%201224%20v%20-%20Page%205%20-%20Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums&txt=ALPA%20ANTI%20ACMI)


That got fixed with decertifying them and booting out of office a number of the problems but chewed up a lot of time. We should have one more CBA behind us but don't due to this ALPA sabotage.

So while our current leadership like JonnyKnoxville works the union business pay system and union compensated helpers like DC8Driver work there angle, it won't last for long. The remaining membership that gets some time under their belts here will start seeing how the failed past tactics of pre-Atlas/Polar merger (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2733103-post60.html) repeating themselves now.

It's easier to elect new leadership that actually upholds their promises than decertify. I know being one of the guys who accomplished it the last time and knowing exactly what ALPA will do to us if we go back.

FR8Dog7
01-02-2019, 03:38 AM
Maybe when ALPA can deliver a contract that pays their entire pilot group the total compensation that the IPA Union has achieved for their pilot group, then you can climb back on your high horse. For now, you and your ALPA carrier are playing second fiddle at best.

"IPA Union has achieved for their pilot group"

Now that is funny! IPA has done NOTHING for the Atlas pilots except take the largest percentage of dues that any other pilot group is paying. Good for those on the board that are making 300k doing UB and eating prime rib and king prawns on the union members dime. *********g pathetic.

BoilerUP
01-02-2019, 03:40 AM
IPA represents UPS pilots

IBT represents Atlas pilots (and others)

HercDriver130
01-02-2019, 03:49 AM
"IPA Union has achieved for their pilot group"

Now that is funny! IPA has done NOTHING for the Atlas pilots except take the largest percentage of dues that any other pilot group is paying. Good for those on the board that are making 300k doing UB and eating prime rib and king prawns on the union members dime. *********g pathetic.

Do you even know which union represents which pilots... good lord.

FR8Dog7
01-02-2019, 06:01 AM
"IPA Union has achieved for their pilot group"

Now that is funny! IPA has done NOTHING for the Atlas pilots except take the largest percentage of dues that any other pilot group is paying. Good for those on the board that are making 300k doing UB and eating prime rib and king prawns on the union members dime. *********g pathetic.


Damn, I missed that completely! But then again I am not a Union guy like J.K. is that posted it. Change mine to IBT! Dave Bourne and his bunch of broken promise maker cronies!

deus ex machina
01-02-2019, 12:36 PM
Doesn't sound too unlike:


Atlas Air Crew Services AACS(crew leasing company in STN union busting Atlas union).
Global Supply System GSS (new airline in Europe created by Atlas for union busting Atlas union).
FSI the third party company our flight attendants are hired and work under.
Using F&E maintenance with only a few actual A&P's hired by Atlas.
ETC
ETC
ETC


At least the first two got taken out under IBT before we went backwards with this administration.

We were slowly cleaning them out until this recently un-elected administration via a last minute E-board expansion of the Atlas ExCo numbers (5 to 7) to the number running for office. Thus no election, just placement of the 7 raised hands vs an election of 5. No one could be bounced.




We spent a number of years fighting among ourselves (Atlas-Polar) under ALPA and it collectively severely stagnated our contract growth. ALPA picked one side and sabotaged the larger group. "ALPA Unit 1 (https://alpaunit1.org/)" even told us about it and that verified what Prater as ALPA's leader at the time was doing to us. It cost us years in an improved CBA for our now unified group of 10 airlines under Local 1224. Many of which operate for DHL/Amazon.

Our stagnation was a result of ALPA's and the the smaller carrier's hate of the ACMI world though they were happy to take our dues money while shooting us collectively in the foot. (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154642526413013&key=9b6f296ed5808a533a8c200e2b2032c0&libId=jqf1o8330100a0tt000DAfwmrthng&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-5.html&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2F747captain.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault% 2Ffiles%2FALPAanti-wetleasing1.pdf&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-6.html&title=Atlas%20pilots%20deserve%20better%3F%20Teams ters%201224%20v%20-%20Page%205%20-%20Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums&txt=ALPA%20ANTI%20ACMI)


That got fixed with decertifying them and booting out of office a number of the problems but chewed up a lot of time. We should have one more CBA behind us but don't due to this ALPA sabotage.

So while our current leadership like JonnyKnoxville works the union business pay system and union compensated helpers like DC8Driver work there angle, it won't last for long. The remaining membership that gets some time under their belts here will start seeing how the failed past tactics of pre-Atlas/Polar merger (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2733103-post60.html) repeating themselves now.

It's easier to elect new leadership that actually upholds their promises than decertify. I know being one of the guys who accomplished it the last time and knowing exactly what ALPA will do to us if we go back.

Yet here you are making substandard wages for flying the B747... it's been over 10 years since you left ALPA... by now the betterness the IBT should have been seen... but it hasn't...

Now, the ALPA President is an all Cargo guy...

How long do you hold onto what happened last decade? Times change...

BTW we don't like negotiating against your poor wages... I'm sure you do... you're welcome.

SaltyDog
01-02-2019, 12:52 PM
DEM
You really make ALPA look petty and your really not doing your party any favors. You ignore any choice any other pilot group chooses, yet then bally hoo how it is up to the pilots to decide their future. You really ought to review your postings on the topic. Your contradictions are amusing to many of us:D

Your lack of comment on my and others specific questions for you in previous posts is also expected.
Oh well.
Cheers ;)

CallmeJB
01-02-2019, 02:42 PM
Now, the ALPA President is an all Cargo guy...

What difference does that make? Iíve never seen union governance that was tailored to the type of revenue being transported.

Besides, Atlas is not an all cargo airline. Our passenger operations are larger than some ALPA airlinesí are.

FR8Dog7
01-02-2019, 05:28 PM
What difference does that make? Iíve never seen union governance that was tailored to the type of revenue being transported.

Besides, Atlas is not an all cargo airline. Our passenger operations are larger than some ALPA airlinesí are.


And Kirschner and Bourne really don't care as long as the $$ keep rolling in! Prime rib and king prawns for everyone!

deus ex machina
01-02-2019, 05:51 PM
So what you're telling me is... with less resources, funds and experience the IBT is going to deliver Atlas pilots a contract equal to any similar type pilot group at ALPA....

Let me know when.... meanwhile enjoy the Queen...

SaltyDog
01-02-2019, 05:53 PM
Copy your IBT comment, what about SWAPA, APA, IPA?
They have better contracts than many ALPA.

JonnyKnoxville
01-02-2019, 05:54 PM
And Kirschner and Bourne really don't care as long as the $$ keep rolling in! Prime rib and king prawns for everyone!

Says the clueless guy who retired how long ago now? Honestly, don't you have anything...I mean, ANYTHING better to do in retirement? It is pretty sad that you come on here when requested by (scrupulous/suddenimpact) to back up his posts full of lies?

There is a reason Atlas Air has never been a good place to work and it is because clowns like you two mismanaged the ship for far too long.

JonnyKnoxville
01-02-2019, 06:08 PM
At least the first two got taken out under IBT before we went backwards with this administration.

We were slowly cleaning them out until this recently un-elected administration via a last minute E-board expansion of the Atlas ExCo numbers (5 to 7) to the number running for office. Thus no election, just placement of the 7 raised hands vs an election of 5. No one could be bounced.

So while our current leadership like JonnyKnoxville works the union business pay system and union compensated helpers like DC8Driver work there angle, it won't last for long. The remaining membership that gets some time under their belts here will start seeing how the failed past tactics of pre-Atlas/Polar merger (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2733103-post60.html) repeating themselves now.

It's easier to elect new leadership that actually upholds their promises than decertify. I know being one of the guys who accomplished it the last time and knowing exactly what ALPA will do to us if we go back.

Hey Suddenimpact / Scrupulous, why did you change your screen name? Did you get kicked off APC for too many baseless lies and personal attacks? You might want to get checked out, seriously. I am guessing Narcissistic Personality Disorder but it could also be Pathological Lying Disorder. Either way, I am concerned for you and really am concerned that maybe you should not be exercising the rights of a FAA Medical right now.

Also, for the record, I am rather certain everyone on APC at Atlas Air knows who I am. There is no need to keep trying to out me in every one of your posts. I have never had any interest in hiding my identity mainly because, well, I have nothing to hide. You on the other hand like to change screen names...

Thanks for the entertainment. Hey, how is your Gulfstream doing these days? lol :)

deus ex machina
01-02-2019, 06:26 PM
Copy your IBT comment, what about SWAPA, APA, IPA?
They have better contracts than many ALPA.

such as...

one another note, ALPA is a part of IFALPA... get criminalized in a foreign state and you are going to wish you had an network of representation that can get there in hours... not weeks... Ask your IBT leadership...

I can only imagine what your hotels are like...

SaltyDog
01-02-2019, 08:05 PM
such as...

one another note, ALPA is a part of IFALPA... get criminalized in a foreign state and you are going to wish you had an network of representation that can get there in hours... not weeks... Ask your IBT leadership...

I can only imagine what your hotels are like...

Yeah, union I belong has done same. Proven several time overseas. Your ignorance of other unions is amusing.
Sadly, your rant of ALPA is exactly what turns off many non ALPA pilots at those unions, so your recruiting efforts backfire. :rolleyes:

deus ex machina
01-02-2019, 08:49 PM
Yeah, union I belong has done same. Proven several time overseas. Your ignorance of other unions is amusing.
Sadly, your rant of ALPA is exactly what turns off many non ALPA pilots at those unions, so your recruiting efforts backfire. :rolleyes:

Interesting... tell me more about your international network of legal and pilot representation wrt the criminalization of pilots in foreign states.....

Are you going to provide negotiating leverage for DAL (soon) and UAL who are currently in Section 6... or are you waiting for them to help you..

FR8Dog7
01-03-2019, 01:42 AM
Says the clueless guy who retired how long ago now? Honestly, don't you have anything...I mean, ANYTHING better to do in retirement? It is pretty sad that you come on here when requested by (scrupulous/suddenimpact) to back up his posts full of lies?

There is a reason Atlas Air has never been a good place to work and it is because clowns like you two mismanaged the ship for far too long.


Actually, Atlas USED to be a GREAT place to work. That is before all of you children of entitlement showed up. (Along with Jeff Carlson) and all of his buddies that he brought on. You just keep telling yourself that 1224 is going to get you that great contract where you make 400k a year. Well you probably are, flying on your X days and getting your FPL on your UB days. I understand you like your prime rib medium rare!

JackStraw
01-03-2019, 04:02 AM
Actually, Atlas USED to be a GREAT place to work. That is before all of you children of entitlement showed up. (Along with Jeff Carlson) and all of his buddies that he brought on. You just keep telling yourself that 1224 is going to get you that great contract where you make 400k a year. Well you probably are, flying on your X days and getting your FPL on your UB days. I understand you like your prime rib medium rare!

It is bothersome that our union guys do this. Why the Exco thinks itís not slimy to do it is a total mystery.

BoilerUP
01-03-2019, 04:12 AM
Are you going to provide negotiating leverage for DAL (soon) and UAL who are currently in Section 6... or are you waiting for them to help you..

IPA provided DALPA negotiating leverage for their 2016 TA2.

RyeMex
01-03-2019, 05:12 AM
Are you going to provide negotiating leverage for DAL (soon) and UAL who are currently in Section 6... or are you waiting for them to help you..

You mean similar to the way in which ATI provided leverage for FDX with the industry leading contract that ALPA signed for the ATI folks?

Wait, no, that can't be right. I don't think that FDX is eager to use the gains that ALPA got ATI in their next round of negotiations. Especially considering the fact that ATI got a contract that had worse pay scales than the pay scales that Omni (*ahem, IBT 1224*) had received before ATI ever signed their TA. Yeah, that was pattern bargaining at its finest. Thanks, ALPA! :rolleyes:

SaltyDog
01-03-2019, 09:06 AM
Interesting... tell me more about your international network of legal and pilot representation wrt the criminalization of pilots in foreign states.....

Are you going to provide negotiating leverage for DAL (soon) and UAL who are currently in Section 6... or are you waiting for them to help you..

LOL!
You don't say anything or respond to inquiry asked, only act like ALPA superior in all things.
You apparently know but wont answer as other unions have expertise and capability to support represented pilots.
Already have the answers myself. I already know about the various unions strengths and challenges. You are blind to your own propaganda. Lousy diplomat for ALPA. (I know some good ones though in leadership positions)
No perfect pilot union. All have challenges. Most pilots understand this fact.
;)

deus ex machina
01-03-2019, 11:53 AM
LOL!
You don't say anything or respond to inquiry asked, only act like ALPA superior in all things.
You apparently know but wont answer as other unions have expertise and capability to support represented pilots.
Already have the answers myself. I already know about the various unions strengths and challenges. You are blind to your own propaganda. Lousy diplomat for ALPA. (I know some good ones though in leadership positions)
No perfect pilot union. All have challenges. Most pilots understand this fact.
;)

Asking for details... not rhetoric... either you got it or you don't...

How do you represent your IBT pilots internationally when they are incarcerated by govt?

Almost There
01-03-2019, 12:13 PM
such as...

one another note, ALPA is a part of IFALPA... get criminalized in a foreign state and you are going to wish you had an network of representation that can get there in hours... not weeks... Ask your IBT leadership...

I can only imagine what your hotels are like...

Are you seriously basing your choice of Union representation for when you "get criminalized in a foreign state"?

Globemaster2827
01-03-2019, 12:25 PM
It's not what you fly, it's who you fly for....

reading this thread, Atlas guys are in a netherworld... how can you explain something is better out there when Atlas guys don't even know what better is....

If they want to be convinced that ALPA sucks, go for it... but ALPA sucks less than everyone else, simply due to the resources... the IBT doesn't have near the funds, institutional knowledge and resources as ALPA... If you don't have the funds and ability to strike the company owns the negotiation process.. combine that with Trump NMB and the only thing that is going to compel management to negotiate is labor peace and stability... if they don't see that value then you guys are screwed....

As I said... WB FOs at my carrier make more than B747 CAs at Atlas.. and that is just the pay rate... the work rules, benefits and retirement will make you weep.

But hey, you're flying the Queen. :rolleyes:

Would ALPA have prevented K4 from voting for their industry worst retirement? Or is that more of a K4 pilot group thing...

deus ex machina
01-03-2019, 12:30 PM
Would ALPA have prevented K4 from voting for their industry worst retirement? Or is that more of a K4 pilot group thing...

Perhaps... the ALPA president signs the contract with consideration to other pilot groups... do you have that checks and balances at IBT...

Does the IBT, SWAPA and IPA consider other pilot groups and the effect their CBA will have on them?

akfrtdwg 57
01-03-2019, 01:00 PM
Perhaps... the ALPA president signs the contract with consideration to other pilot groups... do you have that checks and balances at IBT...

Does the IBT, SWAPA and IPA consider other pilot groups and the effect their CBA will have on them?

Hahaha I find it humourous you bring up this point. As Kalittas beef with IBT was DB was preventing them from voting on their current CBA because how it could affect other contracts being negotiated. So you are saying that ALPA is going todo the same thing. Thanks for the morning laugh friend.

SaltyDog
01-03-2019, 01:02 PM
Asking for details... not rhetoric... either you got it or you don't...

How do you represent your IBT pilots internationally when they are incarcerated by govt?

I asked for details too. As have others
Not rhetoric.
No response by you either :rolleyes:

deus ex machina
01-03-2019, 01:04 PM
I asked for details too. As have others
Not rhetoric.
No response by you either :rolleyes:

Enjoy your B747 CA wages at my airlines WB FO rates... :rolleyes:

Whale Driver
01-03-2019, 01:13 PM
Hahaha I find it humourous you bring up this point. As Kalittas beef with IBT was DB was preventing them from voting on their current CBA because how it could affect other contracts being negotiated. So you are saying that ALPA is going todo the same thing. Thanks for the morning laugh friend.

Wrong! K4 was prevented from voting because the K4 EXCO was not honoring an agreement that THEY signed as to how each group would negotiate in reference to all the other 1224 CBA's operating on the DHL ramp.

JonnyKnoxville
01-03-2019, 01:42 PM
I understand you like your prime rib medium rare!

So, you donít like your beef cooked medium rare?!? You are more of a lost cause than I had originally thought.

DC8DRIVER
01-03-2019, 02:17 PM
Enjoy your B747 CA wages at my airlines WB FO rates... :rolleyes:

Why on earth would you take such pleasure in others misfortunes?

People who do things like that have some serious character flaws.

BoilerUP
01-03-2019, 02:46 PM
Enjoy your B747 CA wages at my airlines WB FO rates... :rolleyes:



What widebody FOs make $318/hr?

Lockheed
01-03-2019, 02:58 PM
Would ALPA have prevented K4 from voting for their industry worst retirement? Or is that more of a K4 pilot group thing...

is this some sort of clickbait....your BS is very very old

Lockheed
01-03-2019, 03:00 PM
Wrong! K4 was prevented from voting because the K4 EXCO was not honoring an agreement that THEY signed as to how each group would negotiate in reference to all the other 1224 CBA's operating on the DHL ramp.

ah ya that's false

deus ex machina
01-03-2019, 03:06 PM
What widebody FOs make $318/hr?

What Atlas CA makes more than $213/hr, 12 year pay, IAW APC profile of Atlas? This is less than WB FO at DAL/UAL... where is your $318/hr?

BoilerUP
01-03-2019, 03:26 PM
where is your $318/hr?

At UPS...

Thanks to the IPA, who you said was a "weak union" and "easy to manipulate"...

Which is what drew Salty Dog (an IPA member) into this furball, since you were throwing rocks at every union that isn't ALPA.

No Land 3
01-03-2019, 05:44 PM
Too bad UPS isnít home based...

deus ex machina
01-03-2019, 06:10 PM
At UPS...

Thanks to the IPA, who you said was a "weak union" and "easy to manipulate"...

Which is what drew Salty Dog (an IPA member) into this furball, since you were throwing rocks at every union that isn't ALPA.

IBT... if I mistyped... I am talking the IBT.... not IPA...

NoJoy
01-03-2019, 09:29 PM
Too bad UPS isnít home based...

They make enough to justify not being home based.

scrupulous
01-03-2019, 10:01 PM
Hey Suddenimpact / Scrupulous, why did you change your screen name? Did you get kicked off APC for too many baseless lies and personal attacks? You might want to get checked out, seriously. I am guessing Narcissistic Personality Disorder but it could also be Pathological Lying Disorder. Either way, I am concerned for you and really am concerned that maybe you should not be exercising the rights of a FAA Medical right now.

Lets just say you have at least one well compensated guy and a couple of other sycophants that trolls this site that are ready to cry to the mods. Even if just mentioning public figures name in the news since 1990 (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154658370436213&key=9b6f296ed5808a533a8c200e2b2032c0&libId=jqhmxo8p0100a0tt000DAit1vqxky&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2F273 3103-post60.html&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.upi.com%2FArchives%2F1990%2F 08%2F14%2FNorthwest-pilot-testifies-he-was-not-drunk-during-flight%2F8667650606400%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-11.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20View%20Single%20Post%20-%20Atlas%20pilots%20deserve%20better%3F%20Teamster s%201224%20v&txt=only%20one%20of%20them). Even our faceman ExCo admits that during a past crew call. "Flame bait" is administered here per the squeaky wheel policy. Your buddies are happy to rat.

Baseless lies and personal attacks. That's rich. I didn't go shopping to IBT legal crying. You went shopping to them and they said "If it's true, we can't do anything about it." Though subsequently, the posts to the union site, the links and etc backing me up were deleted by your incoming administration. I still have the docs, recordings, etc though.

Of course, only after an agreed truce we keep to ourselves until the union business pay abuse got intolerable. That lead to the flight pay loss amendment that passed and the ExCo shutdown of the union web forum. Months later a 1224 tech guy acted as a moderator to allow posts after your administration removed all the Atlas moderators that approved posts. Not to mention one ExCo moving all members to a non-union facebook page which freely banned dues paying members depending on how they voted or where caught supporting the passed amendment.

Thanks for the recommendation for help, I did get my medical on the 3rd all the same. Unfortunately, I as many others don't qualify you to negotiate for us anymore than pass judgment on my mental state. We kind of think of you as an end table for the ExCo Chair to put his beer on during negotiations.

Also, for the record, I am rather certain everyone on APC at Atlas Air knows who I am. There is no need to keep trying to out me in every one of your posts. I have never had any interest in hiding my identity mainly because, well, I have nothing to hide. You on the other hand like to change screen names...That is due to me when you were sabotaging a previous ExCo's efforts and I was asked to legitimately find out vs someone doing a false flag op. Congrats, your it. Now even your past supporters come to me asking how to get you out. So your "I have nothing to hide" doesn't ring well. More like a Trump boast that fits the situation for now despite the truth.

Anyhow, you seem quite disingenuous on your transparency. You just got caught and this is your Trump excuse.

Thanks for the entertainment. Hey, how is your Gulfstream doing these days? lol :)Not too bad. It's in for a check and an stc upgrade to internet data and cellular service. We all kind of find that using satcom for calls sucks in the back. So we opted for a cell service add-on.

akfrtdwg 57
01-03-2019, 10:06 PM
Wrong! K4 was prevented from voting because the K4 EXCO was not honoring an agreement that THEY signed as to how each group would negotiate in reference to all the other 1224 CBA's operating on the DHL ramp.

:rolleyes:
I did say K4s beef with IBT as they have repeated numerous times in the forums. NOT IBTs beef with the K4 Exco.....

Globemaster2827
01-04-2019, 03:18 AM
Lets just say you have at least one well compensated guy and a couple of other sycophants that trolls this site that are ready to cry to the mods. Even if just mentioning public figures name in the news since 1990 (https://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_154658370436213&key=9b6f296ed5808a533a8c200e2b2032c0&libId=jqhmxo8p0100a0tt000DAit1vqxky&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2F273 3103-post60.html&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.upi.com%2FArchives%2F1990%2F 08%2F14%2FNorthwest-pilot-testifies-he-was-not-drunk-during-flight%2F8667650606400%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fcar go%2F118800-atlas-pilots-deserve-better-teamsters-1224-v-11.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20View%20Single%20Post%20-%20Atlas%20pilots%20deserve%20better%3F%20Teamster s%201224%20v&txt=only%20one%20of%20them). Even our faceman ExCo admits that during a past crew call. "Flame bait" is administered here per the squeaky wheel policy. Your buddies are happy to rat.

Baseless lies and personal attacks. That's rich. I didn't go shopping to IBT legal crying. You went shopping to them and they said "If it's true, we can't do anything about it." Though subsequently, the posts to the union site, the links and etc backing me up were deleted by your incoming administration. I still have the docs, recordings, etc though.

Of course, only after an agreed truce we keep to ourselves until the union business pay abuse got intolerable. That lead to the flight pay loss amendment that passed and the ExCo shutdown of the union web forum. Months later a 1224 tech guy acted as a moderator to allow posts after your administration removed all the Atlas moderators that approved posts. Not to mention one ExCo moving all members to a non-union facebook page which freely banned dues paying members depending on how they voted or where caught supporting the passed amendment.

Thanks for the recommendation for help, I did get my medical on the 3rd all the same. Unfortunately, I as many others don't qualify you to negotiate for us anymore than pass judgment on my mental state. We kind of think of you as an end table for the ExCo Chair to put his beer on during negotiations.

That is due to me when you were sabotaging a previous ExCo's efforts and I was asked to legitimately find out vs someone doing a false flag op. Congrats, your it. Now even your past supporters come to me asking how to get you out. So your "I have nothing to hide" doesn't ring well. More like a Trump boast that fits the situation for now despite the truth.

Anyhow, you seem quite disingenuous on your transparency. You just got caught and this is your Trump excuse.

Not too bad. It's in for a check and an stc upgrade to internet data and cellular service. We all kind of find that using satcom for calls sucks in the back. So we opted for a cell service add-on.

1. You know you're the only one who wanted to use the old forum and that's why you were the only person posting on it... Correct? It was a little creepy. Sort of like a crazy homeless man in ANC screaming to himself while walking down the sidewalk...

2. 1224 had their opportunity to get Johnny Knoxville out in 2017 and nobody even ran against him... That would include you. I take it that since you didn't care to run that you find it easier to simply take to APC and complain about those who do the actual work.... Or were you also satisfied with the job he was doing?

In any event... Since "your" going get him out can we hear your platform about all of the nice things you're going to do that will improve the Atlas Pilot Group situation? Other than change the way UB is done... This year 300 pilots will leave Atlas for greener pastures and I promise you it has nothing to do with UB.

Elevation
01-04-2019, 05:01 AM
While we all may disagree about UB, who's in charge of what, etc. we are still all on the same side of the table when it comes to negotiating a contract for our crews. Like it or not, we're all family here.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 05:31 AM
While we all may disagree about UB, who's in charge of what, etc. we are still all on the same side of the table when it comes to negotiating a contract for our crews. Like it or not, we're all family here.

Sure, but it would be nice if all of us could get 6 hours of “UB” pay each day to work from home then double your pay with an easy VX trip instead of being gone 19 days for a measly 62 hours. For some, the incentive for achieving a new CBA is far more present. Just because you have “Union Business” doesn’t mean you should be clearing well over 100 hours every month; that is, unless you’re battling grievances everyday on behalf of the pilots. Those guys deserve it.

tomgoodman
01-04-2019, 06:00 AM
The number and intensity of personal insults has placed this thread in danger of being closed, per APC Forum Rules.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/rules-announcements/60804-forum-rules.html

FR8Dog7
01-04-2019, 07:08 AM
Sure, but it would be nice if all of us could get 6 hours of ďUBĒ pay each day to work from home then double your pay with an easy VX trip instead of being gone 19 days for a measly 62 hours. For some, the incentive for achieving a new CBA is far more present. Just because you have ďUnion BusinessĒ doesnít mean you should be clearing well over 100 hours every month; that is, unless youíre battling grievances everyday on behalf of the pilots. Those guys deserve it.


You all had a chance to change that! Prime rib and king prawns for everyone!

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 07:10 AM
Sure, but it would be nice if all of us could get 6 hours of “UB” pay each day to work from home then double your pay with an easy VX trip instead of being gone 19 days for a measly 62 hours. For some, the incentive for achieving a new CBA is far more present. Just because you have “Union Business” doesn’t mean you should be clearing well over 100 hours every month; that is, unless you’re battling grievances everyday on behalf of the pilots. Those guys deserve it.

Let's stick to the facts rather than making false assumptions.

UB - Pays 5 hours a day

Per Diem - None

UB - Only paid when a member leaves their house to do union work (all union work done at home is done for free)

There is no premium pay associated with UB. In other words, if you work a 17 day trip and a meeting with management pops up on days 20-22 of the month, that still pays 5 hours a day. Not 5 + 2,4,6.

Nobody is getting rich off UB. If we were motivated by the money, everyone knows the money making positions are in the training center. In fact most in the upper union leadership positions almost all members are already independently wealthy from income sources outside of Atlas Air and the union; unlike Suddenimpact / Scrupulous who pretends he is. Your union leadership isn't doing this for the "big" UB money. If we were, we would be the worst business men on the planet. The time invested versus money received would be the worst rate of return one could find anywhere. When I say this, there is no exaggeration here. I could work at McDonalds for a second job and put in less hours and make more than I do by doing union work.

This is not a complaint, just stating the facts. You current union leadership is motivated to fight the company for a new CBA because it is the right thing to do and we are very passionate about it.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 07:12 AM
Let's stick to the facts rather than making false assumptions.

UB - Pays 5 hours a day

Per Diem - None

UB - Only paid when a member leaves their house to do union work (all union work done at home is done for free)

There is no premium pay associated with UB. In other words, if you work a 17 day trip and a meeting with management pops up on day 20 of the month, that still pays 5 hours. Not 5 + 2,4,6.

So when someone on the NC gets 17 days of UB when we arenít negotiating that person is physically away from home for 17 days? Negotiationing what exactly?

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 07:31 AM
The number and intensity of personal insults has placed this thread in danger of being closed, per APC Forum Rules.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/rules-announcements/60804-forum-rules.html

Shutting it down seems like a great idea.

When Scrupulous/Suddenimpact uses baseless lies to make personal attacks, he destroys constructive dialogue.

Question:

I guess the Mods historically did not find Suddenimpact's past behavior to be ethically of the standard worthy of participation on APC. As soon as he changed his screen name, does that action somehow change the integrity or ethical standards of APC or is he just finding a way around the mods?

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 07:34 AM
So when someone on the NC gets 17 days of UB when we aren’t negotiating that person is physically away from home for 17 days? Negotiationing what exactly?

Yes, writing contract language. Jackstraw, PM sent.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 07:37 AM
Yes, writing contract language. Jackstraw, PM sent.

17 days in a row away from home writing contract language. You canít be serious.

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 07:53 AM
17 days in a row away from home writing contract language. You can’t be serious.

I am dead serious. Not just 17 days...almost two years of writing for 17 days. You don't seriously think these things write themselves do you? I have PM'd you inviting you to call me and I can explain every detail.

Nothing like underestimating things you don't understand but too scared to call and actually learn the facts. This reminds me of my neighbor that constantly tells me I have the easiest job in the world flying airplanes. Just press a button and the thing flies itself. The drone pilot neighbor can't figure out why airline pilots make any more than minimum wage because every kid who likes video games could just sit at home flying HKG-LAX from his computer.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 08:04 AM
I am dead serious. Not just 17 days...almost two years of writing for 17 days. You don't seriously think these things write themselves do you? I have PM'd you inviting you to call me and I can explain every detail.

Nothing like underestimating things you don't understand but too scared to call and actually learn the facts. This reminds me of my neighbor that constantly tells me I have the easiest job in the world flying airplanes. Just press a button and the thing flies itself. The drone pilot neighbor can't figure out why airline pilots make any more than minimum wage because every kid who likes video games could just sit at home flying HKG-LAX from his computer.

Iíll gladly call later. A lot of this doesnít add up.

DC8DRIVER
01-04-2019, 09:35 AM
Yes, writing contract language. Jackstraw, PM sent.

WHAT??

Do you mean to tell me that a 330+ page contract that needs a complete re-write doesn't accommodate current pilot group references, re-write, edit, proofread, and pass the lawyers recommendations all by itself??

... how lame ... ;)

WhipWhitaker
01-04-2019, 09:43 AM
Nothing like underestimating things you don't understand but too scared to call and actually learn the facts.

Man I hear you, and I get it. But throwing out insults to the guys you represent is such a bad look. We all want you to do well, and be compensated appropriately. Jack straw brings up concerns that A LOT of us have as we review our already undersized pay stubs for the past year and see what we have spent on dues and assessments. I think itís pretty normal to want to ensure that money is being spent in the most efficient way possible considering the snails pace of progress.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 09:52 AM
WHAT??

Do you mean to tell me that a 330+ page contract that needs a complete re-write doesn't accommodate current pilot group references, re-write, edit, proofread, and pass the lawyers recommendations all by itself??

... how lame ... ;)

It’s not that. It’s that we’ve been hearing for months that our side of the table is already complete in writing CBA language. We’re just waiting for the company. But not only apparently not, but apparently it takes 17 days a month EVERY month that doesn’t have a 4 day Sydney layover built in to get it written. But what do I know. I’m too tired from working to care anymore.

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 10:23 AM
Man I hear you, and I get it. But throwing out insults to the guys you represent is such a bad look. We all want you to do well, and be compensated appropriately. Jack straw brings up concerns that A LOT of us have as we review our already undersized pay stubs for the past year and see what we have spent on dues and assessments. I think it’s pretty normal to want to ensure that money is being spent in the most efficient way possible considering the snails pace of progress.

I respect that and I will respectfully answer any questions you have because you want answers. What you didn't do is falsely accuse your leadership of stealing, fraudulent activity, or mismanagement. You just asked questions and shared your valid concerns.

With that said, false accusations and outright baseless lies that have been spread and delivered by some will be returned with hard hitting facts.

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 10:28 AM
It’s not that. It’s that we’ve been hearing for months that our side of the table is already complete in writing CBA language. We’re just waiting for the company. But not only apparently not, but apparently it takes 17 days a month EVERY month that doesn’t have a 4 day Sydney layover built in to get it written. But what do I know. I’m too tired from working to care anymore.

We have not met for negotiations since June/July (Southern LOA). Once again, false accusations void of facts. Also, for the record, I don't like Sydney layovers.

What is the matter Jackstraw, too busy launching false accusations to pick up the phone and get real answers?

sandstorm
01-04-2019, 10:30 AM
Al I have to say is that if JonnyKnoxville offers for you to call him and ask him questions please do so. He has always been willing to talk to me and answer any questions. If you do, hopefully that will clear up any concerns that you may have and we can stop all this *****ing on an open forum.

JackStraw
01-04-2019, 10:31 AM
We have not met for negotiations since June/July (Southern LOA). Once again, false accusations void of facts. Also, for the record, I don't like Sydney layovers.

What is the matter Jackstraw, too busy launching false accusations to pick up the phone and get real answers?

Who said I was referring to you? In fact, none of my posts have been referring to you. You actually fly the line. You donít UB day then VX either, which is the lowest of lows. Youíre doing a fine job in my eyes.

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 10:33 AM
Who said I was referring to you? In fact, none of my posts have been referring to you. You actually fly the line. You don’t UB day then VX either, which is the lowest of lows. You’re doing a fine job in my eyes.

Thank you, and for the record I and BK, the leader of the union, use more UB than probably anyone else in union leadership.

If you think someone in union leadership has such a great deal going, sign up to do their job. Get the good deal yourself. I think you will find rather quickly it is not the good deal you perceived.

tomgoodman
01-04-2019, 10:55 AM
Shutting it down seems like a great idea.

When Scrupulous/Suddenimpact uses baseless lies to make personal attacks, he destroys constructive dialogue.

Question:

I guess the Mods historically did not find Suddenimpact's past behavior to be ethically of the standard worthy of participation on APC. As soon as he changed his screen name, does that action somehow change the integrity or ethical standards of APC or is he just finding a way around the mods?

Mods donít know who is telling the truth here, so we canít use alleged ďbaseless liesĒ as a criterion for giving infractions. Instead, we can only regulate the kind of language a post uses in its effort to convince readers of the truth. Vigorous argument about issues is fine, but personal attacks are not allowed. Fair enough?

JonnyKnoxville
01-04-2019, 10:57 AM
Mods donít know who is telling the truth here, so we canít use alleged ďbaseless liesĒ as a criterion for giving infractions. Instead, we can only regulate the kind of language a post uses in its effort to convince readers of the truth. Vigorous argument about issues is fine, but personal attacks are not allowed. Fair enough?

Fair enough...if you could, keep an eye on sudden impact, I mean scrupulous. He likes personal attacks.

Globemaster2827
01-04-2019, 11:58 AM
WHAT??

Do you mean to tell me that a 330+ page contract that needs a complete re-write doesn't accommodate current pilot group references, re-write, edit, proofread, and pass the lawyers recommendations all by itself??

... how lame ... ;)

I know that I've personally seen things change at my current airline and I'll shoot him a text telling him about it. Sometimes he's not aware of it and I'm sure that sometimes factors into the construction of the document that they want. I'm one friend. He has many who contact him and I'm sure all of this requires constant updating to get it how he wants. This is just one issue I know he puts in work on. Many times he's working on this stuff at home... For FREE while everyone else is grilling out, drinking beer and watching the ball game.

Keep in mind that we all sit around in the cockpit and complain about the holes in our various contracts. What he does is extremely important and he'll be the recipient of 100% of the blame from yall when the new contract comes out - fair or not. It's important work and as a personal friend I can vouch that he isn't getting rich on it. He's doing it because he's passionate about it.

If he really wanted to get rich he'd be and be at FedEx or UPS right now. At his age that's far more lucrative than 5 hours of UB here or there and those airlines would be fortunate to have him.

Globemaster2827
01-04-2019, 12:04 PM
Itís not that. Itís that weíve been hearing for months that our side of the table is already complete in writing CBA language. Weíre just waiting for the company. But not only apparently not, but apparently it takes 17 days a month EVERY month that doesnít have a 4 day Sydney layover built in to get it written. But what do I know. Iím too tired from working to care anymore.

Have you ever wondered if he has more responsibilities than just the contract negotiations... Hmmmmmmmmm.... What if an airplane has an incident or a member wants to call him to talk about the use of UB? What if there's a grievance that he needs to spend several hours on discussing with the Stewards about retirement? What if BF and JD call a last minute meeting? So much for that fishing trip he had that X day. What if...

It's almost like that job has more responsibility than a line pilot.

scrupulous
01-04-2019, 11:05 PM
1. You know you're the only one who wanted to use the old forum and that's why you were the only person posting on it... Correct? It was a little creepy. Sort of like a crazy homeless man in ANC screaming to himself while walking down the sidewalk...

2. 1224 had their opportunity to get Johnny Knoxville out in 2017 and nobody even ran against him... That would include you. I take it that since you didn't care to run that you find it easier to simply take to APC and complain about those who do the actual work.... Or were you also satisfied with the job he was doing?

In any event... Since "your" going get him out can we hear your platform about all of the nice things you're going to do that will improve the Atlas Pilot Group situation? Other than change the way UB is done... This year 300 pilots will leave Atlas for greener pastures and I promise you it has nothing to do with UB.


The forum was private to membership. Not like the current facebook page. Yes, I've been the sole poster due to no one willing to take the hits despite a very large number of members messaging me cudos and emails. If you look at the number of reads, I have many despite the site being relegated to the hinterlands. Having said this, I was almost arrested for dealing with a homeless guy in ANC back in September until they looked at the video from the restaurant. So I'm willing to back up what I say vs rhetoric.
This was addressed earlier. At the last minute, our ExCo went from 5 to 7 by Eboard approval and only seven were running. Coincidence that the Eboard just magically came by this or by BK lobbying the Eboard to keep a possible challengers off to keep all the yes men in office? So ALL of the volunteers got put into office despite their qualifications. Even better for the ExCo Chair.
To tell you the truth, I would have run for office. It's easier and you normally lay the work off to those more competent. I knew of three other competent folks that were thinking of running for office, but changed their minds at the last minute and I don't blame them since they have some character.

Let's stick to the facts rather than making false assumptions.

UB - Pays 5 hours a day/

Per Diem - None


No per diem. You are correct. You get reimbursement instead for expenses. A little more paperwork.

UB - Only paid when a member leaves their house to do union work (all union work done at home is done for free)Nope. A number of examples say otherwise. Guess you should complain about that.

Shutting it down seems like a great idea.

When Scrupulous/Suddenimpact uses baseless lies to make personal attacks, he destroys constructive dialogue.

Question:

I guess the Mods historically did not find Suddenimpact's past behavior to be ethically of the standard worthy of participation on APC. As soon as he changed his screen name, does that action somehow change the integrity or ethical standards of APC or is he just finding a way around the mods?

Kind of funny when you don't control a site like the Facebook and union site. Equal ground sucks doesn't it. As a matter of fact, I probably shouldn't complain about your naming me here but I didn't.


I’ll gladly call later. A lot of this doesn’t add up.


Take caution. They have been willing to tell you anything. Back what they say up with 1224 legal or international. This ExCo has proven themselves disingenuous on a number of things. Don't put your job on the line with their say so. I know that isn't easy, but keep it in the back of your head.


It’s not that. It’s that we’ve been hearing for months that our side of the table is already complete in writing CBA language. We’re just waiting for the company. But not only apparently not, but apparently it takes 17 days a month EVERY month that doesn’t have a 4 day Sydney layover built in to get it written. But what do I know. I’m too tired from working to care anymore.

Ditto.

Al I have to say is that if JonnyKnoxville offers for you to call him and ask him questions please do so. He has always been willing to talk to me and answer any questions. If you do, hopefully that will clear up any concerns that you may have and we can stop all this *****ing on an open forum.

Wish the entire ExCo would do this. I have recordings and emails saying otherwise. They are selective on who they will represent and even more so selling their narative. Wish it wasn't true, but this is who we have elected.

Fair enough...if you could, keep an eye on sudden impact, I mean scrupulous. He likes personal attacks.


I don't have a personal (compensated) army as our ExCo. Most try to keep there heads down and I don't blame them considering this ExCo's actions. I would like to request the same treatment they are afforded though.


Have you ever wondered if he has more responsibilities than just the contract negotiations... Hmmmmmmmmm.... What if an airplane has an incident or a member wants to call him to talk about the use of UB? What if there's a grievance that he needs to spend several hours on discussing with the Stewards about retirement? What if BF and JD call a last minute meeting? So much for that fishing trip he had that X day. What if...

It's almost like that job has more responsibility than a line pilot.


I have personally had to answer the call to the membership 24/7. Done so gladly patching in who needs to deal with such things involved at hand. I guess times change and expectations are different now. Guess volunteering has changed.



Maybe folks shouldn't volunteer for jobs they can't or won't do when it is inconvenient.

Globemaster2827
01-05-2019, 11:51 AM
The forum was private to membership. Not like the current facebook page. Yes, I've been the sole poster due to no one willing to take the hits despite a very large number of members messaging me cudos and emails. If you look at the number of reads, I have many despite the site being relegated to the hinterlands. Having said this, I was almost arrested for dealing with a homeless guy in ANC back in September until they looked at the video from the restaurant. So I'm willing to back up what I say vs rhetoric.
This was addressed earlier. At the last minute, our ExCo went from 5 to 7 by Eboard approval and only seven were running. Coincidence that the Eboard just magically came by this or by BK lobbying the Eboard to keep a possible challengers off to keep all the yes men in office? So ALL of the volunteers got put into office despite their qualifications. Even better for the ExCo Chair.
To tell you the truth, I would have run for office. It's easier and you normally lay the work off to those more competent. I knew of three other competent folks that were thinking of running for office, but changed their minds at the last minute and I don't blame them since they have some character.




No per diem. You are correct. You get reimbursement instead for expenses. A little more paperwork.

Nope. A number of examples say otherwise. Guess you should complain about that.



Kind of funny when you don't control a site like the Facebook and union site. Equal ground sucks doesn't it. As a matter of fact, I probably shouldn't complain about your naming me here but I didn't.





Take caution. They have been willing to tell you anything. Back what they say up with 1224 legal or international. This ExCo has proven themselves disingenuous on a number of things. Don't put your job on the line with their say so. I know that isn't easy, but keep it in the back of your head.




Ditto.



Wish the entire ExCo would do this. I have recordings and emails saying otherwise. They are selective on who they will represent and even more so selling their narative. Wish it wasn't true, but this is who we have elected.




I don't have a personal (compensated) army as our ExCo. Most try to keep there heads down and I don't blame them considering this ExCo's actions. I would like to request the same treatment they are afforded though.





I have personally had to answer the call to the membership 24/7. Done so gladly patching in who needs to deal with such things involved at hand. I guess times change and expectations are different now. Guess volunteering has changed.



Maybe folks shouldn't volunteer for jobs they can't or won't do when it is inconvenient.

So again... What would you do differently from current leadership? Other than UB that is the least of the Atlas Pilot Group problems right now?

What are your plans for negotiations and securing a better contract? It would seem to me like that's the biggest problem that your pilot group faces.

JackStraw
01-05-2019, 02:42 PM
I canít believe even the most basic dregs of the pilot pool would still apply to this disfunctional joke ďairlineĒ.

DC8DRIVER
01-05-2019, 06:26 PM
I canít believe even the most basic dregs of the pilot pool would still apply to this disfunctional joke ďairlineĒ.

Especially when there are whacko pilots at Atlas who post paranoid anti-union rants and sling false personal accusations. I mean a guy who records his phone conversations with fellow pilots, lies about his wealth and outside businesses, and lobs cheap shots at the union officers from the sidelines instead of either helping the union or running for office himself must be a sorry sort of person!

Who would want to fly with a captain who is so cowardly as to hide behind his keyboard, "outing" his fellow pilots with lies about their personal medical conditions and their benefits? What sort of a person does this?

Certainly nobody that anyone would ever want to fly with!

dynap09
01-05-2019, 06:43 PM
Especially when there are whacko pilots at Atlas who post paranoid anti-union rants and sling false personal accusations. I mean a guy who records his phone conversations with fellow pilots, lies about his wealth and outside businesses, and lobs cheap shots at the union officers from the sidelines instead of either helping the union or running for office himself must be a sorry sort of person!

Who would want to fly with a captain who is so cowardly as to hide behind his keyboard, "outing" his fellow pilots with lies about their personal medical conditions and their benefits? What sort of a person does this?

Certainly nobody that anyone would ever want to fly with!

Seriously, I've got no patience for lazy folks who complain but NEVER step up, they seriously do not even run for a position. 100x easier to criticize then to do something constructive. If you think you can do it better, explain your ideas and run and you can do what you want. Not atatlas but best to ignore these kind of folks - they are often serious poison.

tomgoodman
01-05-2019, 06:44 PM
Despite moderator warnings, the personal attacks have continued. Thread closed.



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