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View Full Version : Norwegian airline go bye bye.


Botched
12-22-2018, 08:46 PM
Hey anyone have a list of the USA pilots that went there? thanks... ahhahah bye bye

https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/12/22/discount-carrier-norwegian-air-faces-collapse-by-years-end/#3069d6384e9b


Flytolive
12-22-2018, 09:15 PM
Despite the storm clouds on the horizon, Newsinenglish, the Norwegian news site, seems confident that two of Norwegian Air's stakeholders will inject more cash into the operation to tidy up the balance sheet.

dera
12-22-2018, 09:25 PM
You seem to have trouble understanding what "scab" means.


captjns
12-23-2018, 02:43 AM
Hey anyone have a list of the USA pilots that went there? thanks... ahhahah bye bye

https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/12/22/discount-carrier-norwegian-air-faces-collapse-by-years-end/#3069d6384e9b

Some children really need adult supervision when posting threads on internet websites :rolleyes:

jcountry
12-23-2018, 04:38 AM
Whatever you call them, we need a list.

These guys are worse than any normal scab. They are involved in a scheme to destroy the whole US industry.

They all know what they are doing. They should suffer the consequences.

Ducttape
12-23-2018, 05:29 AM
There is nothing worse than a ďnormalĒ
scab. They are the lowest, so nothing can be lower

ďThere is nothing lower than a scabĒ
-Jack London

rickair7777
12-23-2018, 06:51 AM
On APC we'll reserve the "S Word" for those who cross a picket line.

Norwegian pilots will have their own special place in hell, but it's not the scab department (unless they earned it at a previous job).

Andy
12-23-2018, 07:49 AM
Despite the storm clouds on the horizon, Newsinenglish, the Norwegian news site, seems confident that two of Norwegian Air's stakeholders will inject more cash into the operation to tidy up the balance sheet.

With Norwegian's cash burn rate, that would be entire personal fortunes being sent to money heaven in order to delay the day of reckoning at Norwegian.

fadec
12-23-2018, 07:56 AM
"Norwegianís problems were exacerbated this week by a shutdown of service at Londonís Gatwick airport, the second biggest hub by passenger volume in the United Kingdom, after drones were allegedly spotted flying nearby."

These drone pilots just earned the jumpseat in my book.

Hrkdrivr
12-23-2018, 07:57 AM
Cheap planes on the used market soon?

jcountry
12-23-2018, 08:27 AM
On APC we'll reserve the "S Word" for those who cross a picket line.

Norwegian pilots will have their own special place in hell, but it's not the scab department (unless they earned it at a previous job).

That's OK.

There will be a list sooner or later, and our jumpseats will be reserved for whomever didn't work there.

rickair7777
12-23-2018, 08:42 AM
That's OK.

There will be a list sooner or later, and our jumpseats will be reserved for whomever didn't work there.

I hope there's a list, at least for reference when those folks come looking for jobs at the US airlines...

Sniper66
12-23-2018, 10:47 AM
Hey anyone have a list of the USA pilots that went there? thanks... ahhahah bye bye

https://www.forbes.com/sites/grantmartin/2018/12/22/discount-carrier-norwegian-air-faces-collapse-by-years-end/#3069d6384e9b






Good Riddance

Ducttape
12-23-2018, 10:52 AM
I hope there's a list, at least for reference when those folks come looking for jobs at the US airlines...

They will be easy to spot, they will be the guys who are 25 and have a 787 type

badflaps
12-23-2018, 01:25 PM
They will be easy to spot, they will be the guys who are 25 and have a 787 type

Plus, they will have herring on their breath.

TiredSoul
12-23-2018, 02:05 PM
I hope there's a list, at least for reference when those folks come looking for jobs at the US airlines...

https://2e2kda1m9pm41j3ob93smm8e-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/upload/ymprod/hatersgonhate.jpg

This really what you people spend your time and energy on?

https://www.postard.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Hypocrisy-meter.jpg

ItnStln
12-23-2018, 03:14 PM
Whatever you call them, we need a list.

These guys are worse than any normal scab. They are involved in a scheme to destroy the whole US industry.

They all know what they are doing. They should suffer the consequences.

Why would this list not apply this to pilots who flew in the Middle East as well? What about China?

ItnStln
12-23-2018, 03:15 PM
Cheap planes on the used market soon?

Most likely.

Qotsaautopilot
12-23-2018, 03:24 PM
Why would this list not apply this to pilots who flew in the Middle East as well? What about China?

Not flag of convenience

ORDinary
12-23-2018, 03:37 PM
Why would this list not apply this to pilots who flew in the Middle East as well? What about China?

Nope, just NAI so far.

rickair7777
12-23-2018, 03:46 PM
Why would this list not apply this to pilots who flew in the Middle East as well? What about China?

Those guys got paid ok, pretty good gig compared to what was readily available in the US ten years ago.

captjns
12-23-2018, 03:55 PM
How about outsourced operations in the disguise of code share flights operated by US Expats. Apply to them too?

Ducttape
12-23-2018, 04:03 PM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Scabs are the true enemy and the ones to feel the punishment of their decision until their last day on earth.

Pilots creating their own ďEnemiesĒ list only creates ambiguity on who the true enemy to the profession is.

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

TiredSoul
12-23-2018, 04:33 PM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Scabs are the true enemy and the ones to feel the punishment of their decision until their last day on earth.

Pilots creating their own ďEnemiesĒ list only creates ambiguity on who the true enemy to the profession is.

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

Who died and made you the moral compass Nazi?

captjns
12-23-2018, 04:39 PM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Scabs are the true enemy and the ones to feel the punishment of their decision until their last day on earth.

Pilots creating their own ďEnemiesĒ list only creates ambiguity on who the true enemy to the profession is.

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

Easy to hide behind the computer, whilst typing bravado statements. Hopefully youíll be paired with a captain who chose the expat route... better yet ex-Norwegian.

Ducttape
12-23-2018, 04:44 PM
Easy to hide behind the computer, whilst typing bravado statements. Hopefully youíll be paired with a captain who chose the expat route... better yet ex-Norwegian.

Did I hit an expat nerve with you? Must have...

Any expat I fly with is in the right seat, not left seat. I have no issue with expat pilots; flags of conviencience pilots, different story. Are either scabs? Nope.

Ducttape
12-23-2018, 04:46 PM
Who died and made you the moral compass Nazi?

The same person who made you the forum contrarian on everything.

See you at the meeting. Iíll be the one with the ďmoral compassĒ sign on my sleeve

dera
12-23-2018, 10:43 PM
Those guys got paid ok, pretty good gig compared to what was readily available in the US ten years ago.

So, where do you draw the line?
The Southern Air guy flying a widebody making less money, than the Norwegian guy?

TiredSoul
12-24-2018, 01:19 AM
The same person who made you the forum contrarian on everything.

See you at the meeting. Iíll be the one with the ďmoral compassĒ sign on my sleeve

http://johnbleasby.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/no-to-kool-aid.jpg

Csy Mon
12-24-2018, 02:00 AM
No Bye-Bye yet..
Norwegian just now secured additional financing and bought time.
They also reached an agreement with Rolls Royce for compensation after 787 engine problems.
Article from a Norwegian financial daily:

https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/rolls-royce/dreamliner/norwegian-sikrer-lan-til-fly-kjoper-seg-mer-til-a-fa-hele-finansieringen-pa-plass/2-1-507962

Another update, in English;
https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressreleases/update-from-norwegian-air-shuttle-asa-2817995

Skypilotsv1984
12-24-2018, 05:26 AM
Reading that article it still sounds like theyíre arrainging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

OOfff
12-24-2018, 06:04 AM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Scabs are the true enemy and the ones to feel the punishment of their decision until their last day on earth.

Pilots creating their own ďEnemiesĒ list only creates ambiguity on who the true enemy to the profession is.

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

What union hiring screening?

FollowMe
12-24-2018, 06:12 AM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Scabs are the true enemy and the ones to feel the punishment of their decision until their last day on earth.

Pilots creating their own ďEnemiesĒ list only creates ambiguity on who the true enemy to the profession is.

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

Spineless and selfish yes voters are a close second.

rickair7777
12-24-2018, 06:23 AM
So, where do you draw the line?
The Southern Air guy flying a widebody making less money, than the Norwegian guy?

Flag of convenience is a good place to draw the line. Southern as far as I know is a US flagged airline with a US union?

Packrat
12-24-2018, 07:19 AM
What union hiring screening?

Exactly. No such thing. All the people on my interview boards have been management pilots, HR or IPs.

Andy
12-24-2018, 07:38 AM
No Bye-Bye yet..
Norwegian just now secured additional financing and bought time.
They also reached an agreement with Rolls Royce for compensation after 787 engine problems.
Article from a Norwegian financial daily:

https://www.dn.no/luftfart/norwegian/rolls-royce/dreamliner/norwegian-sikrer-lan-til-fly-kjoper-seg-mer-til-a-fa-hele-finansieringen-pa-plass/2-1-507962

Another update, in English;
https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressreleases/update-from-norwegian-air-shuttle-asa-2817995

That refinanced Dreamliner brought in $30M. And IIRC, it's just shifting money within the Norwegian corporate structure, as they have a internal aircraft leasing company.

Nothing I read in that article is going to save Norwegian. They need to completely abandon their TATL LCC routes to have any chance of surviving - it's a huge money loser for them.

dera
12-24-2018, 08:46 AM
Flag of convenience is a good place to draw the line. Southern as far as I know is a US flagged airline with a US union?

Isn't the whole US regional industry just a massive "flag of convenience"?
Operating planes often not owned by themselves, sometimes without an union, and only exist to undercut pay and work rules? That's way more serious than NAI.
ME3 hatred I do understand, they don't play in a level playing field.
But Norwegian isn't subsidized like the ME3 are, and is not even a real FOC operation if you compare it to a lot of European carriers.

Andy
12-24-2018, 09:39 AM
Isn't the whole US regional industry just a massive "flag of convenience"?
Operating planes often not owned by themselves, sometimes without an union, and only exist to undercut pay and work rules? That's way more serious than NAI.
ME3 hatred I do understand, they don't play in a level playing field.
But Norwegian isn't subsidized like the ME3 are, and is not even a real FOC operation if you compare it to a lot of European carriers.

Get back to us when you find out the definition of flag of convenience.

David Puddy
12-24-2018, 11:09 AM
What are the odds BA (IAG) or Ryanair will pick up the 787s for cheap and use them in a low-cost unit?

captjns
12-24-2018, 03:50 PM
Too easy to get things twisted here....

Hopefully having Norwegian on your resume will be the death blow when trying to make it past any union hiring screening at reputable airlines

Clueless children without adult supervision type the darndest statements.:rolleyes:

captjns
12-24-2018, 03:52 PM
What are the odds BA (IAG) or Ryanair will pick up the 787s for cheap and use them in a low-cost unit?

Ryanair... no... BA or any other carrier for that fact... theyíre up for grabs for the highest bidder... and of course the cost of the conformit check too.

ClearCreek
12-24-2018, 04:38 PM
Ryanair... no... BA or any other carrier for that fact... theyíre up for grabs for the highest bidder... and of course the cost of the conformit check too.

Iím curious, do you work for Norwegian?

dera
12-24-2018, 04:40 PM
Get back to us when you find out the definition of flag of convenience.

I just did. Can't really draw a link.
"a flag of a country under which a ship is registered in order to avoid financial charges or restrictive regulations in the owner's country."

So when Aeroflot flies planes that are registered in Ireland, they are a flag of convenience?
Or when SAS Norge flies planes registered in Sweden?

captjns
12-24-2018, 04:55 PM
Iím curious, do you work for Norwegian?

No. Long haul flying is extremely overrated.

DENpilot
12-24-2018, 07:54 PM
Are there any preferential hiring programs at the majors for the pilots being displaced?

SUX4U
12-24-2018, 08:57 PM
No. Long haul flying is extremely overrated.

So is going to battle with complete strangers day in and day out on a pilot ***** board.

Sniper66
12-25-2018, 12:50 AM
Are there any preferential hiring programs at the majors for the pilots being displaced?




Only for “WOW” displaced pilots ,,,

Sliceback
12-25-2018, 07:18 AM
AA is parking 18 767ís and only accepting 12 new 787ís in the next two years. Are they in the market for 4-10 slightly worn 787ís?

Flytolive
12-25-2018, 07:27 AM
AA is parking 18 767ís and only accepting 12 new 787ís in the next two years. Are they in the market for 4-10 slightly worn 787ís?Probably not with RR engines.

Taco280AI
12-25-2018, 10:35 AM
Cheap planes on the used market soon?

Heard CP is getting the 787s

badflaps
12-25-2018, 03:24 PM
I just did. Can't really draw a link.
"a flag of a country under which a ship is registered in order to avoid financial charges or restrictive regulations in the owner's country."

So when Aeroflot flies planes that are registered in Ireland, they are a flag of convenience?
Or when SAS Norge flies planes registered in Sweden?

I would guess that the Irish planes are Guiness-Peat rentals.

Floobs
12-25-2018, 03:48 PM
All these tough guys on here talking about denying jumpseats makes me laugh.

LeeFXDWG
12-25-2018, 07:35 PM
All these tough guys on here talking about denying jumpseats makes me laugh.

Well

I wonít get into a debate with you. Itís my jumpseat.

Never denied it but I might have an exception for you.

Hope you laugh going up the jetway after I tell you to get off my Aircraft.

Have a nice day.

Lee

m3113n1a1
12-25-2018, 08:19 PM
Well

I wonít get into a debate with you. Itís my jumpseat.

Never denied it but I might have an exception for you.

Hope you laugh going up the jetway after I tell you to get off my Aircraft.

Have a nice day.

Lee

Lolol. Look at this tough guy! Yes, I'm laughing out loud.

Floobs
12-25-2018, 09:29 PM
Well

I wonít get into a debate with you. Itís my jumpseat.

Never denied it but I might have an exception for you.

Hope you laugh going up the jetway after I tell you to get off my Aircraft.

Have a nice day.

Lee

I doubt it

Roundup
12-28-2018, 04:41 PM
You seem to have trouble understanding what "scab" means.

Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line. And Norwegian Air? Nope, if Iím working for Norwegian, I donít owe the people at Delta or any of the other carriers anything.

full of luv
12-28-2018, 08:50 PM
Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line. And Norwegian Air? Nope, if Iím working for Norwegian, I donít owe the people at Delta or any of the other carriers anything.

PATCO (my dad was a member) was an illegal union at the time conducting an illegal strike. Thatís why they all ended up fired with no recourse.
I suspect any airline union trying to strike over an illegal strike may have suffered the same fate.
NAI has been doing everything possible to subvert every possible worker protection and would have had very negative consequences eventually if it had proved successful.

Rolf
12-28-2018, 09:55 PM
I think this is just the first iteration. There will be NAI copycats that are better planned/financed.

rickair7777
12-29-2018, 06:35 AM
Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line. And Norwegian Air? Nope, if Iím working for Norwegian, I donít owe the people at Delta or any of the other carriers anything.

PATCO? That's ridiculous. Different craft, different employer, different employment circumstance (public vs. private sector), different everything. Government employees shouldn't be allowed to strike period.

When was the last time ATC honored a pilot strike and refused to handle flights from a struck a carrier? I'm guessing never, and I don't blame them.

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 11:25 AM
Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line.

Your answer makes it crystal clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

No idea.

jcountry
12-29-2018, 11:50 AM
Well

I wonít get into a debate with you. Itís my jumpseat.

Never denied it but I might have an exception for you.

Hope you laugh going up the jetway after I tell you to get off my Aircraft.

Have a nice day.

Lee

Iíve denied a couple.

I do have a **** list.

Itís small, but itís a no-kidding-****-you kind of thing.

When a NAI list is published, you can bet every single one of those guys will get the ďno-kidding-****-youĒ from me.

jcountry
12-29-2018, 11:52 AM
I think this is just the first iteration. There will be NAI copycats that are better planned/financed.

Thatís exactly why we have to make an example out of these sorry NAI pieces of ****.

Gonna be tough to start another flag of convenience carrier if every pilot knows working there will be a career wrecking decision.

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 11:59 AM
Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line.

Your answer and your post history makes it crystal clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. You think you do, oh that's for sure.

Another angry blowhard. I saw your very first post on this forum from 2011 in which you said you'd created your profile so you could tell everyone that you'd happily cross a picket line.

And you flew for Connie. How is that not a surprise.

Andy
12-29-2018, 12:09 PM
I think this is just the first iteration. There will be NAI copycats that are better planned/financed.

First iteration? There have been more than a few TATL LCCs. They've all gone out of business. Every single one. Including all business class LCCs such as Maxjet, Silverjet and Eos.

Level (IAG subsidiary) will likely disappear after Norwegian, WoW and French Bee die. It was almost certainly launched buy IAG to kill TATL LCCs.

Captain X
12-29-2018, 12:14 PM
I hope there's a list, at least for reference when those folks come looking for jobs at the US airlines...
Because the people in HR/hiring departments will give two poops. :rolleyes:

Rolf
12-29-2018, 12:17 PM
Blackballing is a thing. Or so Iíve heard.

Sniper66
12-29-2018, 12:19 PM
First iteration? There have been more than a few TATL LCCs. They've all gone out of business. Every single one. Including all business class LCCs such as Maxjet, Silverjet and Eos.

Level (IAG subsidiary) will likely disappear after Norwegian, WoW and French Bee die. It was almost certainly launched buy IAG to kill TATL LCCs.





All following the steps of Freddy Laker
If Freddy failed they will all fail plain and simple ,,,,

Sniper66
12-29-2018, 12:23 PM
Because the people in HR/hiring departments will give two poops. :rolleyes:




Let me tell you
They for sure do once they receive an email from an employee of theirs
It’s a small world

Andy
12-29-2018, 12:25 PM
All following the steps of Freddy Laker
If Freddy failed they will all fail plain and simple ,,,,

At least until there's high demand to vacation in Paris/London/Frankfurt/Munich/Venice in January/February/March by north American travelers and high demand to vacation in NYC/SFO/Las Vegas/Miami/etc by euros in Jan/Feb/Mar.

Sniper66
12-29-2018, 12:25 PM
Sure, SCAB, pretty much all of ALPA after crossing PATCOís picket line. And Norwegian Air? Nope, if Iím working for Norwegian, I donít owe the people at Delta or any of the other carriers anything.





With that attitude you will never get a chance at a legacy
And thatís a fact
14 hours is a long trip with a personality like yours
Best of luck

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 12:52 PM
With that attitude you will never get a chance at a legacy
And thatís a fact
14 hours is a long trip with a personality like yours
Best of luck

He's WAY past that. If one scans through his posts since he logged on in 2011, the feeling I get is he suffered through some serious deregulation turmoil and soured on ALPA and pilot unions in general. I'm thinking he's significantly past retirement age.

GogglesPisano
12-29-2018, 12:56 PM
He's WAY past that. If one scans through his posts since he logged on in 2011, the feeling I get is he suffered through some serious deregulation turmoil and soured on ALPA and pilot unions in general. I'm thinking he's significantly past retirement age.

The DSM refers to it as "It's all ALPA's fault" Disorder.

captjns
12-29-2018, 01:55 PM
All following the steps of Freddy Laker
If Freddy failed they will all fail plain and simple ,,,,

Remind us... How are Ryanair, Easy Jet, Azul to name a few doing? ;):rolleyes:

captjns
12-29-2018, 02:02 PM
When a NAI list is published, you can bet every single one of those guys will get the ďno-kidding-****-youĒ from me.

All youíll need is a piece of paper the size of a ticket stub. Anyway its gonna be a non-event event... nothing to see... more empty rhetoric.:rolleyes:

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 02:15 PM
Empty rhetoric? Do you seriously think people donít deny jump seats? They do. Most pilots Iíve flown with are WELL aware of the Flag of Convenience operation that is NAI, and the potential it has to bring downward pressure on flight crew compensation, working conditions, and employment stability. If a list of their pilots ever comes out, many will probably experience the awkward walk back up the jetbridge.

I was denied a Jumpseat twenty plus years ago on an AA -80 for simply being an Eagle pilot. It happens.

m3113n1a1
12-29-2018, 02:18 PM
Empty rhetoric? Do you seriously think people donít deny jump seats? They do. Most pilots Iíve flown with are WELL aware of the Flag of Convenience operation that is NAI, and the potential it has to bring downward pressure on flight crew compensation, working conditions, and employment stability. If a list of their pilots ever comes out, many will probably experience the awkward walk back up the jetbridge.

I was denied a Jumpseat twenty plus years ago on an AA -80 for simply being an Eagle pilot. It happens.

Been in the airline industry a decade, commuting too. Not once have I had a captain pull out a list to make sure my name wasn't on it when asking for a ride. Not once have I flown with someone who checks a list. I know there are a FEW who do, but it is a massive minority and those guys are probably weirdos in general.

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 02:29 PM
It was not uncommon in the 80ís and early 90ís after Easternís strike produced hundreds of strike breakers.

m3113n1a1
12-29-2018, 02:34 PM
It was not uncommon in the 80ís and early 90ís after Easternís strike produced hundreds of strike breakers.

Makes sense too that captains wouldn't check their scab list for me, because I'm too young to be a scab...

GogglesPisano
12-29-2018, 02:36 PM
Remind us... How are Ryanair, Easy Jet, Azul to name a few doing? ;):rolleyes:

Are they long-haul LCCís?

m3113n1a1
12-29-2018, 05:09 PM
Are they long-haul LCCís?

They're basically flag of convenience international airlines. Why does stage length matter?

Csy Mon
12-29-2018, 06:23 PM
It was not uncommon in the 80ís and early 90ís after Easternís strike produced hundreds of strike breakers.

Yup, common back then: I worked for Tower Air and had a scab list in the brain bag. Pulled it out as needed and denied the jumpseat a couple of times. No scabs ride for free on my plane. :rolleyes:

TheWeatherman
12-29-2018, 07:50 PM
What happens if you accidentally put your blacklist through the wash?

Peacock
12-29-2018, 09:29 PM
What happens if you accidentally put your blacklist through the wash?

Youíll ruin your whites

450knotOffice
12-29-2018, 09:37 PM
They're basically flag of convenience international airlines. Why does stage length matter?

History seems to show that it's MUCH more difficult to survive as a LONG HAUL international ULCC. International in Europe is akin to Domestic US. Short Haul.

GogglesPisano
12-30-2018, 07:57 AM
They're basically flag of convenience international airlines. Why does stage length matter?

Because no long-haul LCC has ever survived. You're mixing apples with my oranges. If you read previous posts you'll see the back-and-forth I was having.

Macjet
12-30-2018, 09:34 AM
How is NAI any different than a regional flying what is essentially a F100 for $17 an hour?

cf105
12-30-2018, 09:45 AM
Did I hit an expat nerve with you? Must have...

Any expat I fly with is in the right seat, not left seat. I have no issue with expat pilots; flags of conviencience pilots, different story. Are either scabs? Nope.

If you're selling yourself as the defender of the Legacy 3 salaries, what about adding the A320-B737 pilots who fly for US ULLCs and, taking costs of tickets down ands forcing your handlers to struggle for business. NAI treated their guys very well and not much difference between their financial methods and the US Legacies crying world pointing at the ME3 and so-called "flags of convenience" while benefiting from tax-free government support. Same crap, different lipstick.

what about the defenders of the Legacy 3 hegemony stop being selfish and start supporting pay increase at regionals (flying 43% of the Legacy 3's income) so that pilots have a standard income and don't go chase better things overseas.

Andy
12-30-2018, 10:17 AM
Remind us... How are Ryanair, Easy Jet, Azul to name a few doing? ;):rolleyes:

Remind us ... how many of those airlines are offering TATL LCC service? :rolleyes:

This is a pretty easy topic; I don't know why you haven't been able to follow the fact that all TATL LCCs die. It's where you 'invest' your money to send it to money heaven. Dumping your money in a barbecue pit, covering it with lighter fluid, and tossing in a lit match is only slightly faster in capital destruction.

badflaps
12-30-2018, 05:43 PM
I see that Norwegian dumped a 737 MAX into Iran under the guise of engine problems, so that the Persians may see the latest in Western torture devices.:eek:

FAAFlyer
12-30-2018, 05:49 PM
If you're selling yourself as the defender of the Legacy 3 salaries, what about adding the A320-B737 pilots who fly for US ULLCs and, taking costs of tickets down ands forcing your handlers to struggle for business. NAI treated their guys very well and not much difference between their financial methods and the US Legacies crying world pointing at the ME3 and so-called "flags of convenience" while benefiting from tax-free government support. Same crap, different lipstick.

what about the defenders of the Legacy 3 hegemony stop being selfish and start supporting pay increase at regionals (flying 43% of the Legacy 3's income) so that pilots have a standard income and don't go chase better things overseas.

You have to stand up for yourselves.

When regionals offer a laughable wage don't take the job. It's not the majors who forced your hand.

Big E 757
12-30-2018, 08:15 PM
Been in the airline industry a decade, commuting too. Not once have I had a captain pull out a list to make sure my name wasn't on it when asking for a ride. Not once have I flown with someone who checks a list. I know there are a FEW who do, but it is a massive minority and those guys are probably weirdos in general.

Back in Ď98 or Ď99, i was a Mesa Captain and jumpseating on an AA 727. When I presented my credentials to the Captain (AA was in contract negotiations at the time) the Captain looked me in the eye and asked ďWould you ever cross a union picket line, son.Ē I was 27 at the time and working for a commuter so he knew I hadnít up to this point in my career. I said ďNo Sir.Ē He shook my hand and welcomed me aboard. While I was getting settled, a United Captain walked in and asked for a jumpseat. The Captain asked if heíd ever crossed a union picket line. He hesitated and stuttered and said ďuh no.Ē The Captain said as he pulled a red booklet out of his flight kit and said ďAre you sure if I look in this book, I wonít find your name?Ē The United guy said ďWell, I was in management at the time, I had no choice.Ē The Captain got out of his seat and escorted the United guy off the aircraft. More words were exchanged in the jetway as the United guy got left behind. I was really uncomfortable witnessing that. My fear was that Iíd be interviewing at United and that guy would be on the interview panel and recognize me

avi8tor614
12-31-2018, 01:34 AM
Have to have add my tidbit. I am a captain at a US regional which supports 2 legacy carriers. A few type ratings and spent a good part of my career in corporate, because when I was coming up. There were no jobs at the majors UNLESS you were military and very competitive heavy jet time. I was jumpseating one day on United. The captain says to me your more than qualified to come work with us you got your app in. I say yes you and a few others. I'm trying but no bites. I sit at 10000 flight time over 75% jet time. No major events in my history. Pretty clean, good personality, pretty much almost total package. I tell this captain I applied to NAI. He and the FO look at me and berate me. Tell me how could I betray my brothers and sisters like that. I let them finish. Then I said in all due respect. I've been trying for 20 years to get on and work for a US major. I pay dues, I fly the same pax who get off my Ejet, crj and step right on your airbus or 777. You are living the dream, making tons of money. If you could promise me class date in 10 years I would not even consider NAI. Why are foreigners willing to give me a shot (even at lower payscale) and my own brothers and sisters here at the majors are doing NOTHING to get me to their level. I hear the "well we are trying to bring all flying in house". That still only helps one group of pilots. Mainline pilots. What about the rest of us. They didn't like what I said BUT they got to see it from amother perspective. I don't want to fly for foreign airlines. I love all the legacies. I would love for them to stomp these intruders, but everyone at mainline wants the guys who are not getting hired or called to watch from the sideline. You want us to not even consider NAI. Offer me/us a job. I'm flying your pax anyway; safely, efficiently, and in your system. Throw a lifeline. I can fly a plane, give good customer service, and tell a good joke. Where are my brothers and sisters at. Are they looking out for themselves or us as a group. Let's answer this honestly.

Qotsaautopilot
12-31-2018, 04:01 AM
Have to have add my tidbit. I am a captain at a US regional which supports 2 legacy carriers. A few type ratings and spent a good part of my career in corporate, because when I was coming up. There were no jobs at the majors UNLESS you were military and very competitive heavy jet time. I was jumpseating one day on United. The captain says to me your more than qualified to come work with us you got your app in. I say yes you and a few others. I'm trying but no bites. I sit at 10000 flight time over 75% jet time. No major events in my history. Pretty clean, good personality, pretty much almost total package. I tell this captain I applied to NAI. He and the FO look at me and berate me. Tell me how could I betray my brothers and sisters like that. I let them finish. Then I said in all due respect. I've been trying for 20 years to get on and work for a US major. I pay dues, I fly the same pax who get off my Ejet, crj and step right on your airbus or 777. You are living the dream, making tons of money. If you could promise me class date in 10 years I would not even consider NAI. Why are foreigners willing to give me a shot (even at lower payscale) and my own brothers and sisters here at the majors are doing NOTHING to get me to their level. I hear the "well we are trying to bring all flying in house". That still only helps one group of pilots. Mainline pilots. What about the rest of us. They didn't like what I said BUT they got to see it from amother perspective. I don't want to fly for foreign airlines. I love all the legacies. I would love for them to stomp these intruders, but everyone at mainline wants the guys who are not getting hired or called to watch from the sideline. You want us to not even consider NAI. Offer me/us a job. I'm flying your pax anyway; safely, efficiently, and in your system. Throw a lifeline. I can fly a plane, give good customer service, and tell a good joke. Where are my brothers and sisters at. Are they looking out for themselves or us as a group. Let's answer this honestly.

Did you apply at Jetblue, spirit, sw, Alaska, frontier? At this point in time I have a hard time believing that guys with your experience wouldíve heard nothing from all of the above. Most guys stuck at regionals are not competitive, just became competitive, or are holding out for their top choices. Even at frontier (if contract passes) and spirit youíll make a ton more money than you would at NAI along with better qol and DC retirement. Iím not saying anyone is going to hand you a job but most with that experience either have skeletons or havenít exhausted all options. All of the airlines named turn away great candidates that shouldíve been hired but great candidates donít get turned away by every single one these days

Cosa Nostra
12-31-2018, 05:22 AM
Have to have add my tidbit. I am a captain at a US regional which supports 2 legacy carriers. A few type ratings and spent a good part of my career in corporate, because when I was coming up. There were no jobs at the majors UNLESS you were military and very competitive heavy jet time. I was jumpseating one day on United. The captain says to me your more than qualified to come work with us you got your app in. I say yes you and a few others. I'm trying but no bites. I sit at 10000 flight time over 75% jet time. No major events in my history. Pretty clean, good personality, pretty much almost total package. I tell this captain I applied to NAI. He and the FO look at me and berate me. Tell me how could I betray my brothers and sisters like that. I let them finish. Then I said in all due respect. I've been trying for 20 years to get on and work for a US major. I pay dues, I fly the same pax who get off my Ejet, crj and step right on your airbus or 777. You are living the dream, making tons of money. If you could promise me class date in 10 years I would not even consider NAI. Why are foreigners willing to give me a shot (even at lower payscale) and my own brothers and sisters here at the majors are doing NOTHING to get me to their level. I hear the "well we are trying to bring all flying in house". That still only helps one group of pilots. Mainline pilots. What about the rest of us. They didn't like what I said BUT they got to see it from amother perspective. I don't want to fly for foreign airlines. I love all the legacies. I would love for them to stomp these intruders, but everyone at mainline wants the guys who are not getting hired or called to watch from the sideline. You want us to not even consider NAI. Offer me/us a job. I'm flying your pax anyway; safely, efficiently, and in your system. Throw a lifeline. I can fly a plane, give good customer service, and tell a good joke. Where are my brothers and sisters at. Are they looking out for themselves or us as a group. Let's answer this honestly.


Oh please, cry me a river.



Although I feel your frustration, pretty lame excuse to apply to NAI.


If you love the legacy carriers forget them once you get hired at NAI.



How many guys left the regionals as Captains to go to companies like JB and Frontier to sit at first year pay with the hopes of getting hired by a Legacy?


The Foreigners are giving you a shot because they need pilots, not because they like you.



And in your own words "low payscale" and you're ok with that? Just to fly a 787??

rickair7777
12-31-2018, 07:49 AM
How is NAI any different than a regional flying what is essentially a F100 for $17 an hour?

The US regional system is what it is. Those guys are at least pulling the same economic cart as the major pilots, just with a smaller horse and less oats. And frankly I get more oats because they accept less. Major pilots can't really blame them since it was a combination of major scope giveaways and BKs that led to the system we have today (and that's some really gooey toothpaste to try to put back in the tube).

You can't blame NAI itself for trying new business models, they don't owe us a thing, and neither really do the euro-pilots. But if they're American pilots (or anyone else who wants to work in the US), then rallying around that particular flag is at their peril. Major hiring managers don't care if you worked at a regional or what regional. They might take a dim view of NAI experience. For a long time ME3 pilots seemed to have to return to the states and do time in regionals, ACMI, etc before the legacies would touch them.

Andy
12-31-2018, 08:15 AM
I see that Norwegian dumped a 737 MAX into Iran under the guise of engine problems, so that the Persians may see the latest in Western torture devices.:eek:

:D OK, that's just plain funny.

Have they gotten it out of there? Last I saw, it was stuck there for more than a week with no ability to get repairs made.

Andy
12-31-2018, 08:24 AM
Did you apply at Jetblue, spirit, sw, Alaska, frontier? At this point in time I have a hard time believing that guys with your experience wouldíve heard nothing from all of the above. Most guys stuck at regionals are not competitive, just became competitive, or are holding out for their top choices. Even at frontier (if contract passes) and spirit youíll make a ton more money than you would at NAI along with better qol and DC retirement. Iím not saying anyone is going to hand you a job but most with that experience either have skeletons or havenít exhausted all options. All of the airlines named turn away great candidates that shouldíve been hired but great candidates donít get turned away by every single one these days

Agreed. And having a professional airline counseling service take a look at one's application will likely pinpoint multiple errors/issues that will doom an applicant from ever receiving a second look.

Roundup
12-31-2018, 10:56 AM
The US regional system is what it is. Those guys are at least pulling the same economic cart as the major pilots, just with a smaller horse and less oats. And frankly I get more oats because they accept less. Major pilots can't really blame them since it was a combination of major scope giveaways and BKs that led to the system we have today (and that's some really gooey toothpaste to try to put back in the tube).

You can't blame NAI itself for trying new business models, they don't owe us a thing, and neither really do the euro-pilots. But if they're American pilots (or anyone else who wants to work in the US), then rallying around that particular flag is at their peril. Major hiring managers don't care if you worked at a regional or what regional. They might take a dim view of NAI experience. For a long time ME3 pilots seemed to have to return to the states and do time in regionals, ACMI, etc before the legacies would touch them.

What a bunch of BS. If you need a job and NAI is hiring I would certainly go. Iíve listened to bozos like the ones here throwing words like scab around and tough luck. If I needed a job and you were striking, I would wear steel toed boots going through your line. And take your girlfriend too.

rickair7777
12-31-2018, 11:05 AM
What a bunch of BS. If you need a job and NAI is hiring I would certainly go. Iíve listened to bozos like the ones here throwing words like scab around and tough luck. If I needed a job and you were striking, I would wear steel toed boots going through your line. And take your girlfriend too.

NAI are not scabs.

But you sound like a potential good for for some of the fractionals, you should check that out.

SUX4U
12-31-2018, 12:42 PM
What a bunch of BS. If you need a job and NAI is hiring I would certainly go. Iíve listened to bozos like the ones here throwing words like scab around and tough luck. If I needed a job and you were striking, I would wear steel toed boots going through your line. And take your girlfriend too.

Too funny! I know women can be pretty bat **** crazy. But to expect a woman to leave a legacy pilot for a low life scab is REALLY pushing the limits.

450knotOffice
12-31-2018, 01:02 PM
NAI are not scabs.

But you sound like a potential good for for some of the fractionals, you should check that out.

Heís too old. Retired, bitter old man from what I can gather, based on his post history.

Ignore him.

Big E 757
12-31-2018, 11:17 PM
Have to have add my tidbit. I am a captain at a US regional which supports 2 legacy carriers. A few type ratings and spent a good part of my career in corporate, because when I was coming up. There were no jobs at the majors UNLESS you were military and very competitive heavy jet time. I was jumpseating one day on United. The captain says to me your more than qualified to come work with us you got your app in. I say yes you and a few others. I'm trying but no bites. I sit at 10000 flight time over 75% jet time. No major events in my history. Pretty clean, good personality, pretty much almost total package. I tell this captain I applied to NAI. He and the FO look at me and berate me. Tell me how could I betray my brothers and sisters like that. I let them finish. Then I said in all due respect. I've been trying for 20 years to get on and work for a US major. I pay dues, I fly the same pax who get off my Ejet, crj and step right on your airbus or 777. You are living the dream, making tons of money. If you could promise me class date in 10 years I would not even consider NAI. Why are foreigners willing to give me a shot (even at lower payscale) and my own brothers and sisters here at the majors are doing NOTHING to get me to their level. I hear the "well we are trying to bring all flying in house". That still only helps one group of pilots. Mainline pilots. What about the rest of us. They didn't like what I said BUT they got to see it from amother perspective. I don't want to fly for foreign airlines. I love all the legacies. I would love for them to stomp these intruders, but everyone at mainline wants the guys who are not getting hired or called to watch from the sideline. You want us to not even consider NAI. Offer me/us a job. I'm flying your pax anyway; safely, efficiently, and in your system. Throw a lifeline. I can fly a plane, give good customer service, and tell a good joke. Where are my brothers and sisters at. Are they looking out for themselves or us as a group. Let's answer this honestly.


Aren’t more and more regionals getting flow through agreements? From what I’ve seen, The military guys and flows are getting the vast majority of spots in new hire classes. When I was at my regional, the only regional with a flow was Eagle. I’m picking up what you’re laying down. It’s not a fair system. I’ve known guys going off to a United interview (my dream job), and I’d say, they’re going to get the job. They’d get turned down. Then some dimwit I’d flown with would get a job offer from some Major. It was head scratching.

Back in the late ‘90’’s and early 2000, I’d fly with female FO’s that all had a special number they passed around for U.S. Air. If one of your girlfriends got a job, all you had to do to get an interview was call the number and get an interview. My uncle was a Pan Am Captain who was absorbed into United’s operation in ‘91 and he got his son, my cousin, a job. They both had letters in for me for years and I couldn’t score an interview. By the grace of God, a friend I had made at Mesa walked a letter into Delta in 99 and I got hired in mid 2000.

I’ll commute for the rest of my life from a United and American Hub and Pilot base to commute to go to work for Delta for the next 20 years because my Uncle and Cousin couldn’t get me an interview at United. Had I not gotten hired when I did, I probably would have switched careers. I wouldn’t have survived the lost decade at Mesa. I probably would have become a Futures trader and I’d be retired now and own my own Jet. But we will never know now. :D

Don’t get me wrong, I love working for Delta. A lot of guys throw shade at us (did I use that term correctly?) and I honestly don’t understand it. I’m proud to wear the double breasted “Van Admiral” jacket and I’ve shared the cockpit with the kindest, most genuine, people I’ve ever known. But I can’t lie either, if I could take at least most of my seniority over to United American, and not have to commute for the rest of my career, I’d do it in a second.

Anyway, good luck to you. I understand the frustration of flying Legacy passengers around day after day for a fraction of the pay, but your blame is misplaced. We all fight for our own contracts. Your contract is a function of what your company offered to provide the lift and seats to the Legacies. We aren’t leaving you out there twisting in the wind because we like to. This industry has always been based on the end goal for Pilots. If there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, there is an incentive to accept substandard contracts, while working towards that end. It’s always been like that. It took me 5 years after college before I made more than $20K. The first year I was going to break $100K was 2002, but I got furloughed in April of that year. Now pilots are making $50-70K the first few years at the regionals. It’s not a perfect system. But the next 5-10 years, if everything else stays the same, are going to be very rewarding for everyone who stayed in the game. With retirements at the Legacy’s peaking soon, everyone who wants to, and has made it this far, should be interviewing and will have their choice of where they want to work.

Good luck, Keep the greasy side down, and Happy New Year!

worstpilotever
01-01-2019, 08:01 AM
Keep in mind the pilots at the majors want all those rj pilots to have mainline jobs. We are fighting to bring that flying in house so regionals cease to exist. It wonít happen overnight, but I think in time regionals will at least shrink down drastically.

FollowMe
01-01-2019, 09:35 AM
Keep in mind the pilots at the majors want all those rj pilots to have mainline jobs. We are fighting to bring that flying in house so regionals cease to exist. It wonít happen overnight, but I think in time regionals will at least shrink down drastically.

You ready to cut your rates to make the happen?

NERD
01-01-2019, 09:36 AM
No!!!!!!!!



You ready to cut your rates to make the happen?

worstpilotever
01-01-2019, 10:17 AM
You ready to cut your rates to make the happen?

Nope...we are willing to hold strong on our scope to make it happen. This will prolong our negotiations and probably cost us money. You are welcome.

ICUROOK
01-01-2019, 11:10 AM
Nope...we are willing to hold strong on our scope to make it happen. This will prolong our negotiations and probably cost us money. You are welcome.

I mean, that is the least you can do after foolishly giving it all up in the first place, amirite?

Ducttape
01-01-2019, 11:53 AM
Nope...we are willing to hold strong on our scope to make it happen. This will prolong our negotiations and probably cost us money. You are welcome.

ďYou are welcome?Ē Seriously? Not giving up more scope should require a thank you from someone? Not continuing to weaken scope only serves to help your career, and for that, you are welcome.

FollowMe
01-01-2019, 11:59 AM
Nope...we are willing to hold strong on our scope to make it happen. This will prolong our negotiations and probably cost us money. You are welcome.

Standing firm on scope only keeps from allowing more flying to leave, it doesnít bring the current outsourcing back in house. In order to do that you will need to offset the cost. If operating the current outsource model costs X, simply bringing the outsourced flying back will cost X+Y (Y being the increased CASM on previously outsourced flying). You will need to offer an offset to keep the system CASM neutral. The only way to do that will be to accept lower wages on the top.

Remember if the flying all comes in itís not just the CASM of those flights that are affected, but every flight moving forward as those pilots will be in the tables 2-5 years earlier than current.

Joachim
01-01-2019, 12:56 PM
Flag of convenience is a good place to draw the line. Southern as far as I know is a US flagged airline with a US union?

All 46 us based 787 pilots fly Norwegian registered aircraft on a Norwegian AOC and make more than most non legacy US wide body operators.

This nonesense is pure lemming effect and witch-hunt.

Get real.

rickair7777
01-01-2019, 01:55 PM
All 46 us based 787 pilots fly Norwegian registered aircraft on a Norwegian AOC and make more than most non legacy US wide body operators.

This nonesense is pure lemming effect and witch-hunt.

Get real.

Which non-legacy US airlines fly widebodies in scheduled revenue pax service? None that I can think of off the top of my head.

You're free to do what you want. We don't have to like it. Or hire you if it's up to us. Not sure why the legacies would reward someone who participated in an attempt to use creative legalities to erode their business model from offshore. But that's their call, not yours or mine. My guess is that they probably won't discriminate (unless pilots in the process have the opportunity to poison the well).

N6279P
01-01-2019, 02:22 PM
Which non-legacy US airlines fly widebodies in scheduled revenue pax service? None that I can think of off the top of my head.

You're free to do what you want. We don't have to like it. Or hire you if it's up to us. Not sure why the legacies would reward someone who participated in an attempt to use creative legalities to erode their business model from offshore. But that's their call, not yours or mine. My guess is that they probably won't discriminate (unless pilots in the process have the opportunity to poison the well).
Hawaiian does. They arenít a legacy airline.

GuardPolice
01-01-2019, 02:37 PM
Hawaiian does. They arenít a legacy airline.


Actually they are.

Delta, AA, United, Hawaiian and Alaska are the 5 legacies. They all existed prior to deregulation which is the sole criterion.


GP

m3113n1a1
01-01-2019, 02:46 PM
All 46 us based 787 pilots fly Norwegian registered aircraft on a Norwegian AOC and make more than most non legacy US wide body operators.

This nonesense is pure lemming effect and witch-hunt.

Get real.

Yep! Pilots love to jump on the hate bandwagon totally uninformed and enraged.

vroll1800
01-01-2019, 03:03 PM
Actually they are.

Delta, AA, United, Hawaiian and Alaska are the 5 legacies. They all existed prior to deregulation which is the sole criterion.


GP

If that is the case, then Southwest should be considered a legacy since they made their first flight 6 or more years prior to deregulation. Maybe the legacy benchmark is being in existence prior to the jet age.

TOGALOCK
01-01-2019, 03:21 PM
If that is the case, then Southwest should be considered a legacy since they made their first flight 6 or more years prior to deregulation. Maybe the legacy benchmark is being in existence prior to the jet age.

The benchmark for legacy carriers is, in fact, existing prior to deregulation. However, the airline also needed to be an established interstate carrier at the time. Southwest technically does not qualify since they were an intrastate carrier only at the time of deregulation. It wasn’t until 1979 that they began to compete in the domestic market.

GuardPolice
01-01-2019, 03:23 PM
If that is the case, then Southwest should be considered a legacy since they made their first flight 6 or more years prior to deregulation. Maybe the legacy benchmark is being in existence prior to the jet age.


Deleted. TOGALOCK beat me to it.


GP

N6279P
01-01-2019, 03:43 PM
Actually they are.

Delta, AA, United, Hawaiian and Alaska are the 5 legacies. They all existed prior to deregulation which is the sole criterion.


GP
Actually they arenít. Neither Southwest or Hawaiian are considered legacy carriers as they did not conduct interstate commerce prior to deregulation. Being a ďlegacy carrierĒ refers to the granting of interstate operational authority, prior to deregulation/ not just simply existing.

N6279P
01-01-2019, 03:44 PM
If that is the case, then Southwest should be considered a legacy since they made their first flight 6 or more years prior to deregulation. Maybe the legacy benchmark is being in existence prior to the jet age.

Nope. Southwest didnít leave the state of Texas until after deregulation.

rickair7777
01-01-2019, 04:16 PM
The benchmark for legacy carriers is, in fact, existing prior to deregulation. However, the airline also needed to be an established interstate carrier at the time. Southwest technically does not qualify since they were an intrastate carrier only at the time of deregulation. It wasn’t until 1979 that they began to compete in the domestic market.

This.

A bit arbitrary but that's how it's defined. Also irrelevant since they don't operate widebodies.


Hawaiian is a legacy, per the conventional wisdom...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier

GuardPolice
01-01-2019, 04:19 PM
This.



A bit arbitrary but that's how it's defined. Also irrelevant since they don't operate widebodies.





Hawaiian is a legacy:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier


Hawaiian does operate wide bodies. The 330 to be exact. And at their pay scale, I refuse to believe Norwegian pays as much as they do.

Also, APC has Hawaiian on their Legacy list of airlines.


GP

N6279P
01-01-2019, 04:26 PM
This.

A bit arbitrary but that's how it's defined. Also irrelevant since they don't operate widebodies.


Hawaiian is a legacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier

Must have missed the memo that said Wikipedia is a great source of correct information. You can believe whatever you want, but HA didnít leave the state of Hawaii in domestic operations until 1985 when it started service to LAX.

sleeves
01-01-2019, 06:44 PM
I mean, that is the least you can do after foolishly giving it all up in the first place, amirite?

No, yournotrite. Most of the guys that gave away or sold that scope have retired. A large part of the seniority list was actually regional pilots for many years. They are gonna pay the price again. Your welcome.

iHateAMR
01-02-2019, 02:12 AM
This.

A bit arbitrary but that's how it's defined. Also irrelevant since they don't operate widebodies.


Hawaiian is a legacy, per the conventional wisdom...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier

Hang on, let me go edit that article chief.

CAirBear
01-02-2019, 05:23 AM
Hawaiian does operate wide bodies. The 330 to be exact. And at their pay scale, I refuse to believe Norwegian pays as much as they do.

Also, APC has Hawaiian on their Legacy list of airlines.


GP

Unless things have changed, lately, itís $5K for FOs and $10K CAs.

Pathetic.

SUX4U
01-02-2019, 06:25 AM
Unless things have changed, lately, itís $5K for FOs and $10K CAs.

Pathetic.

Thats Norweigian monthly pay?

rickair7777
01-02-2019, 06:27 AM
Hang on, let me go edit that article chief.

Go for it. It's a nebulous definition with no real meaning anyway. Just saying the conventional wisdom includes HA, even though that's inconsistent with WN not being included.

deltajuliet
01-02-2019, 10:26 AM
Yup, common back then: I worked for Tower Air and had a scab list in the brain bag. Pulled it out as needed and denied the jumpseat a couple of times. No scabs ride for free on my plane. :rolleyes:

Sorry, sidebar... I have to ask: what was that like?

Big E 757
01-02-2019, 02:04 PM
Standing firm on scope only keeps from allowing more flying to leave, it doesnít bring the current outsourcing back in house. In order to do that you will need to offset the cost. If operating the current outsource model costs X, simply bringing the outsourced flying back will cost X+Y (Y being the increased CASM on previously outsourced flying). You will need to offer an offset to keep the system CASM neutral. The only way to do that will be to accept lower wages on the top.

Remember if the flying all comes in itís not just the CASM of those flights that are affected, but every flight moving forward as those pilots will be in the tables 2-5 years earlier than current.

CASM on a 50 seat RJ was actually higher a few years ago than the 717 at Delta. Now, I havenít looked into it in a while, but I donít think the Pilot pay part of the CASM equation is going to b a deal breaker when spread across twice the seats. Where the CASM makes the argument for keeping regional flying outsourced, is if you assume that Mainline pilots would be operating the E170 or CRJ700 or 900. Not that Iím against it, but i think there will always be a market for 70-90 seat flying.

Flying up to 76 seats has already been given away and I donít think we will get it back, but the ratio of Regional flying vs. mainline flying has been moving in favor of mainline for some time at Delta. The 717 and 319 (our highest casm aircraft, Iím told) have allowed us to take back a lot of RJ flying and park 50 seaters. If the trend continues, maybe the CRJ700 will be next. (The absolute worst RJ on the planet in my opinion).

Kuma
01-02-2019, 08:28 PM
Hang on, let me go edit that article chief.

Go for it. It's a nebulous definition with no real meaning anyway. Just saying the conventional wisdom includes HA, even though that's inconsistent with WN not being included.




Hawaiian Airlines operated a fleet of Lockheed Electras all over the continental USA during the '70s. So, I am pretty sure they were inter-state before de-regulation. Also, makes the definition consistent in that SWA didn't fly interstate until 1979 (after de-regulation).

FollowMe
01-02-2019, 10:24 PM
CASM on a 50 seat RJ was actually higher a few years ago than the 717 at Delta. Now, I havenít looked into it in a while, but I donít think the Pilot pay part of the CASM equation is going to b a deal breaker when spread across twice the seats. Where the CASM makes the argument for keeping regional flying outsourced, is if you assume that Mainline pilots would be operating the E170 or CRJ700 or 900. Not that Iím against it, but i think there will always be a market for 70-90 seat flying.

Flying up to 76 seats has already been given away and I donít think we will get it back, but the ratio of Regional flying vs. mainline flying has been moving in favor of mainline for some time at Delta. The 717 and 319 (our highest casm aircraft, Iím told) have allowed us to take back a lot of RJ flying and park 50 seaters. If the trend continues, maybe the CRJ700 will be next. (The absolute worst RJ on the planet in my opinion).

I agree on the shift, especially as GTF aircraft enter the fleets (A220). The fuel savings will offset labor cost even at a lower load factor on longer stage RJ routes. There will be some spasms along the way but I envision RJ flying moving more back to its roots, serving shorter stage segments into the hubs where GTF isnít able to offset the fuel enough to bridge the labor cost gap.

Catboatsailor
01-03-2019, 08:34 AM
Question when NAI goes t*ts-up, do these NYC pilots get to claim unemployment benefits from the state? IMHO they should go to Norway and ask for money off their government dime. Oh wait theyíre NINO. Norwegian in Name Only.

To all the fellow regional pilots and their pity party at NAI, I have no respect for you. Just because you can marry a 15 year old girl in Utah, doesnít mean you should. Just because you can join an airline thatís hell bent on screwing our profession, DOESNíT mean you should.

The sooner your airline goes TU, the better.

captjns
01-03-2019, 09:39 AM
Question when NAI goes t*ts-up, do these NYC pilots get to claim unemployment benefits from the state? IMHO they should go to Norway and ask for money off their government dime. Oh wait they’re NINO. Norwegian in Name Only.

To all the fellow regional pilots and their pity party at NAI, I have no respect for you. Just because you can marry a 15 year old girl in Utah, doesn’t mean you should. Just because you can join an airline that’s hell bent on screwing our profession, DOESN’T mean you should.

The sooner your airline goes TU, the better.

If its any consolation Catboatsailer, I’ll wager that they couldn’t give a rats a$$ about you nor what you think. You can research your query by looking up unemployment benefits eligibility for every state.

OOfff
01-03-2019, 09:45 AM
Question when NAI goes t*ts-up, do these NYC pilots get to claim unemployment benefits from the state? IMHO they should go to Norway and ask for money off their government dime. Oh wait theyíre NINO. Norwegian in Name Only.

To all the fellow regional pilots and their pity party at NAI, I have no respect for you. Just because you can marry a 15 year old girl in Utah, doesnít mean you should. Just because you can join an airline thatís hell bent on screwing our profession, DOESNíT mean you should.

The sooner your airline goes TU, the better.

If they are NY residents, unemployment insurance is a mandatory payroll item that their employer will pay. Do you even understand how unemployment works?

badflaps
01-03-2019, 09:50 AM
Nutz to Norge, I want to hear more about 15 year olds in Utah.

Catboatsailor
01-03-2019, 11:02 AM
If they are NY residents, unemployment insurance is a mandatory payroll item that their employer will pay. Do you even understand how unemployment works?

Do you understand sarcasm?

ICUROOK
01-03-2019, 11:24 AM
Do you understand sarcasm?

ohh, oops!! So you wer just jokinz?? egg on r face I guess? so many lolzzzz!! you so funny

ShyGuy
01-03-2019, 12:32 PM
Actually they are.

Delta, AA, United, Hawaiian and Alaska are the 5 legacies. They all existed prior to deregulation which is the sole criterion.


GP

Wait, wait, so I work for a legacy airline now?
*scratches head while looking at paycheck*

450knotOffice
01-03-2019, 08:42 PM
ohh, oops!! So you wer just jokinz?? egg on r face I guess? so many lolzzzz!! you so funny

Sarcasm and joking are not the same. Apparently you donít get that.

Celeste
01-03-2019, 09:12 PM
At a job fair I saw Norwegian (actually Rishworth or whatever the contractor that was hiring for NAI) and they were advertising pay rates that were lower than most regionals were paying newhire FOs. So don't give the "these pilots had to put food on the table/pay bills" excuse. There were a plethora of jobs that paid the same or even more at regionals. Also, the work rules, or rather, lack thereof, made it appear that there was worse QOL than many regionals. I don't feel one bit bad for someone who took a lower paying job just so they could fly a widebody international when they knew the possible ramifications in the industry.

iHateAMR
01-04-2019, 02:27 AM
At a job fair I saw Mesa (actually Rishworth or whatever the contractor that was hiring for Mesa) and they were advertising pay rates that were lower than most regionals were paying newhire FOs. So don't give the "these pilots had to put food on the table/pay bills" excuse. There were a plethora of jobs that paid the same or even more at regionals. Also, the work rules, or rather, lack thereof, made it appear that there was worse QOL than many regionals. I don't feel one bit bad for someone who took a lower paying job just so they could fly a CRJ when they knew the possible ramifications in the industry.

Iíve seen this movie before. Just swapped around a few names.. But itís ok, Mesa pilots are great, they were working for Ornstein, whoís mostly American.

ShyGuy
01-05-2019, 02:14 PM
At a job fair I saw Norwegian (actually Rishworth or whatever the contractor that was hiring for NAI) and they were advertising pay rates that were lower than most regionals were paying newhire FOs. So don't give the "these pilots had to put food on the table/pay bills" excuse. There were a plethora of jobs that paid the same or even more at regionals. Also, the work rules, or rather, lack thereof, made it appear that there was worse QOL than many regionals. I don't feel one bit bad for someone who took a lower paying job just so they could fly a widebody international when they knew the possible ramifications in the industry.

How about when pilots voluntarily took paycuts and concessions, knowing the possible ramifications in the industry for other carriers? :rolleyes:

FA24
01-07-2019, 06:44 PM
I see that Norwegian dumped a 737 MAX into Iran under the guise of engine problems, so that the Persians may see the latest in Western torture devices.:eek:


Norwegian: US sanctions prevent repair of 737 stranded in Iran | Safety content from ATWOnline (http://www.atwonline.com/safety/norwegian-us-sanctions-prevent-repair-737-stranded-iran)

snackysmores
01-07-2019, 08:53 PM
Norwegian: US sanctions prevent repair of 737 stranded in Iran | Safety content from ATWOnline (http://www.atwonline.com/safety/norwegian-us-sanctions-prevent-repair-737-stranded-iran)

https://ih0.redbubble.net/image.494693388.6395/flat,550x550,075,f.u1.jpg

NEDude
01-08-2019, 04:46 AM
Looks like the NAI AOC will be shut down soon. The Irish CAA has reportedly been difficult to work with. The Norwegian Air Norway (NAN) AOC has recently been granted USDOT approval. Sweden has apparently given approval to a new Norwegian AOC, called Norwegian Air Sweden (NSE), which will give Norwegian their foothold in the EU. Norwegian and Swedish authorities have also given approval for common management of the certificates, so there will be a reduction of management personnel as there is no need for all the redundancy.

A friend who works for Aer Lingus says the word there is the IAG-Norwegian deal is nearly finalized and should be announced "very soon". What they are hearing from IAPLA is that there will be a reduction in Norwegian short-haul operations, with the Spanish 737 crew bases being closed. IAG plans to focus on the Norwegian long-haul operations. They are also hearing that NAI will be shut down and all operations will be conducted under NUK, NAN and NSE.

zondaracer
01-08-2019, 05:00 AM
What about NAA? (Argentina)

sailingfun
01-08-2019, 06:03 AM
Looks like the NAI AOC will be shut down soon. The Irish CAA has reportedly been difficult to work with. The Norwegian Air Norway (NAN) AOC has recently been granted USDOT approval. Sweden has apparently given approval to a new Norwegian AOC, called Norwegian Air Sweden (NSE), which will give Norwegian their foothold in the EU. Norwegian and Swedish authorities have also given approval for common management of the certificates, so there will be a reduction of management personnel as there is no need for all the redundancy.

A friend who works for Aer Lingus says the word there is the IAG-Norwegian deal is nearly finalized and should be announced "very soon". What they are hearing from IAPLA is that there will be a reduction in Norwegian short-haul operations, with the Spanish 737 crew bases being closed. IAG plans to focus on the Norwegian long-haul operations. They are also hearing that NAI will be shut down and all operations will be conducted under NUK, NAN and NSE.

Why exactly would they shrink the part of the airline making money and increase the size of the part of the airline hemorrhaging money?

KC135
01-08-2019, 10:29 AM
Nope...we are willing to hold strong on our scope to make it happen. This will prolong our negotiations and probably cost us money. You are welcome.

Whyíd you give up so much scope in the first place? Pay raise?

Sniper66
01-08-2019, 11:55 AM
How about when pilots voluntarily took paycuts and concessions, knowing the possible ramifications in the industry for other carriers? :rolleyes:




Ask your captains at Alaska

Sniper66
01-08-2019, 11:56 AM
Why’d you give up so much scope in the first place? Pay raise?



Chapter 11 1113c
Read about it
I know air force never deals with ch 11

Big E 757
01-09-2019, 06:58 PM
Norwegian: US sanctions prevent repair of 737 stranded in Iran | Safety content from ATWOnline (http://www.atwonline.com/safety/norwegian-us-sanctions-prevent-repair-737-stranded-iran)

Yeah, itís our governments fault that they didnít know better than to land in Iran. A U.S. or European Airline once landed there back in the 90ís or early 2000 in a 767 i think, and never got their aircraft back. When I went through World Wide Ops school after checking out on the 757/767, we were told to never land in Iran unless you have a fire you canít put out and/or a loss of life is possible, if you donít land right now. At the time we were flying AMS-BOM. We flew over Iran all the time. Because of the terrain, there are places along the route over Iran where, if you descend to 10,000 feet, you wonít be able to clear the mountainous terrain to get to friendlier skies, so we had the critical terrain escape routes ready the whole way.

Itís not the US government thatís the problem, itís the Iranian government. But poor, poor, NAI. They are running a legit business and just canít catch a break.

Big E 757
01-09-2019, 07:02 PM
How about when pilots voluntarily took paycuts and concessions, knowing the possible ramifications in the industry for other carriers? :rolleyes:

Says the guy that took a job at Virgin America, whose entire business plan was to cherry pick the best routes to under cut the Majors on?? Really? When did you become so righteous.

Are you trying to say that if we hadnít taken paycuts to save our companies and our jobs, that your job would have paid more, and your life would have been better?

ShyGuy
01-09-2019, 07:29 PM
Says the guy that took a job at Virgin America, whose entire business plan was to cherry pick the best routes to under cut the Majors on?? Really? When did you become so righteous.

Are you trying to say that if we hadn’t taken paycuts to save our companies and our jobs, that your job would have paid more, and your life would have been better?

Um, no, not even close. Just calling out the guy in the now Ivory towers looking down on the Americans based in FLL/PVD at Norwegian with a comment like: "I don't feel one bit bad for someone who took a lower paying job just so they could fly a widebody international when they knew the possible ramifications in the industry."

Reality is no ramifications were done to US widebody flying and it seems the FLL/PVD operation of Norwegian is going to go poof. As if these Americans went to Norwegian just to "stick it" to the other American pilots? Come on now, you have to be honest and at least admit that every single one of these guys would have instead taken a job at the big 6 if they had called. They never called, but Norwegian did. How about the big 6 hire pilots that are that highly qualified enough to fly 737/787s at Norwegian in the first place? That would solve a lot of issues.

The comment I made was a sarcastic rolling eye comment (with that smiley) in order to show the ridiculousness of the original quoted statement.

NEDude
01-09-2019, 10:48 PM
Yeah, itís our governments fault that they didnít know better than to land in Iran. A U.S. or European Airline once landed there back in the 90ís or early 2000 in a 767 i think, and never got their aircraft back. When I went through World Wide Ops school after checking out on the 757/767, we were told to never land in Iran unless you have a fire you canít put out and/or a loss of life is possible, if you donít land right now. At the time we were flying AMS-BOM. We flew over Iran all the time. Because of the terrain, there are places along the route over Iran where, if you descend to 10,000 feet, you wonít be able to clear the mountainous terrain to get to friendlier skies, so we had the critical terrain escape routes ready the whole way.

Itís not the US government thatís the problem, itís the Iranian government. But poor, poor, NAI. They are running a legit business and just canít catch a break.

Norwegian is running a legitimate business. Just like Lufthansa, just like IAG, just like Air France-KLM, just like the Thomas Cook Group, etc. Just because you dislike the model does not mean it is not legitimate. And yes, the model was around long before Norwegian arrived on scene. They are neither the innovators of such a business model, nor the largest company to employ such a business model. ALPA just needed a new boogeyman now that they had secured Virgin America and JetBlue and Norwegian was a convenient target.

Baradium
01-10-2019, 11:30 AM
Norwegian is running a legitimate business. Just like Lufthansa, just like IAG, just like Air France-KLM, just like the Thomas Cook Group, etc. Just because you dislike the model does not mean it is not legitimate. And yes, the model was around long before Norwegian arrived on scene. They are neither the innovators of such a business model, nor the largest company to employ such a business model. ALPA just needed a new boogeyman now that they had secured Virgin America and JetBlue and Norwegian was a convenient target.


All those airlines are using flag of convenience?

Big E 757
01-10-2019, 01:13 PM
Norwegian is running a legitimate business. Just like Lufthansa, just like IAG, just like Air France-KLM, just like the Thomas Cook Group, etc. Just because you dislike the model does not mean it is not legitimate. And yes, the model was around long before Norwegian arrived on scene. They are neither the innovators of such a business model, nor the largest company to employ such a business model. ALPA just needed a new boogeyman now that they had secured Virgin America and JetBlue and Norwegian was a convenient target.

I wasnít suggesting that they werenít running a legit business, just that theyíre playing the victim card and blaming others for their misfortune.

Sniper66
01-10-2019, 02:17 PM
Says the guy that took a job at Virgin America, whose entire business plan was to cherry pick the best routes to under cut the Majors on?? Really? When did you become so righteous.

Are you trying to say that if we hadnít taken paycuts to save our companies and our jobs, that your job would have paid more, and your life would have been better?





Bingo
Very well said

Sniper66
01-10-2019, 02:19 PM
Norwegian is running a legitimate business. Just like Lufthansa, just like IAG, just like Air France-KLM, just like the Thomas Cook Group, etc. Just because you dislike the model does not mean it is not legitimate. And yes, the model was around long before Norwegian arrived on scene. They are neither the innovators of such a business model, nor the largest company to employ such a business model. ALPA just needed a new boogeyman now that they had secured Virgin America and JetBlue and Norwegian was a convenient target.





You are so against alpa it’s pathetic
What did alpa airmidwest did to you
Were you section 8 and booted out of alpa or what

ShyGuy
01-10-2019, 02:19 PM
Bingo
Very well said

See above, he missed the point and the sarcasm.

FAAFlyer
01-10-2019, 05:55 PM
Norwegian is running a legitimate business. Just like Lufthansa, just like IAG, just like Air France-KLM, just like the Thomas Cook Group, etc. Just because you dislike the model does not mean it is not legitimate. And yes, the model was around long before Norwegian arrived on scene. They are neither the innovators of such a business model, nor the largest company to employ such a business model. ALPA just needed a new boogeyman now that they had secured Virgin America and JetBlue and Norwegian was a convenient target.

ALPA doesn't need a boogeyman. ALPA is concerned with protecting the profession and, market willing, commensurate employment benefits.

The same cannot be said for Norwegian. Or those willing to undermine the profession.

darkman62
01-10-2019, 06:13 PM
Funny all of these pilots complain about NAI but what about the regionals ? Oh donít mind that the B team is flying our routes as long as we get profit sharing. So they are flying 30% of our mainline flying at 1/2 the cost. I love it when the mainline tells us to run the APU less for more profit share. ďSo you want me to work harder so you make more money?Ē Then when itís Interview time oh sorry not good enough but please try again next year

ShyGuy
01-10-2019, 06:44 PM
:eek:ALPA doesn't need a boogeyman. ALPA is concerned with protecting the profession and, market willing, commensurate employment benefits.

The same cannot be said for Norwegian. Or those willing to undermine the profession.

Really? Then by definition, ALPA cannot fairly represent legacy/mainline pilots and regional pilots. Ones gain directly harms the other. Cue the ďless RJs and more mainline jets means more mainline jobs for regional guys.Ē Sound nice in theory, reality is a whole bunch of regional pilots are stuck with no calls at any legacy.

Define ďundermine the profession.Ē

NEDude
01-10-2019, 11:12 PM
All those airlines are using flag of convenience?

None of them are, not even Norwegian. ALPA lied to you. Just do ten minutes of independent research and it is obvious.

NEDude
01-10-2019, 11:32 PM
You are so against alpa itís pathetic
What did alpa airmidwest did to you
Were you section 8 and booted out of alpa or what

I am against false narratives. ALPA has blatantly lied about Norwegian and I have documented it quite well on this website numerous times.

For the record, I am not anti-ALPA. I was twice a member of an ALPA organizing campaign. And no, I have never been kicked out of ALPA either.

It is sad you have such a hard time comprehending rational thought.

Sniper66
01-11-2019, 01:23 AM
ALPA doesn't need a boogeyman. ALPA is concerned with protecting the profession and, market willing, commensurate employment benefits.

The same cannot be said for Norwegian. Or those willing to undermine the profession.





NEdude will never understand what alpa is all about
Donít waste your typing trying to convince him

Sniper66
01-11-2019, 01:25 AM
I am against false narratives. ALPA has blatantly lied about Norwegian and I have documented it quite well on this website numerous times.

For the record, I am not anti-ALPA. I was twice a member of an ALPA organizing campaign. And no, I have never been kicked out of ALPA either.

It is sad you have such a hard time comprehending rational thought.




If you were alpa me,her you sure donít know what alpa is all about
Hard time comprehending ALPAs goal I guess

NEDude
01-11-2019, 01:52 AM
If you were alpa me,her you sure donít know what alpa is all about
Hard time comprehending ALPAs goal I guess

It is really very simple: ALPA put out a verifiably false campaign. Easily verifiably false. It takes literally just a few minutes to verify that most of what ALPA said in its anti-Norwegian campaign is false. It is truly sad that you either cannot comprehend it, or that you willfully turn a blind eye. I guess you are an ends justify the means type of person.

NEDude
01-11-2019, 02:46 AM
It is really very simple: ALPA put out a verifiably false campaign. Easily verifiably false. It takes literally just a few minutes to verify that most of what ALPA said in its anti-Norwegian campaign is false. It is truly sad that you either cannot comprehend it, or that you willfully turn a blind eye. I guess you are an ends justify the means type of person.

Or I guess it could be you are the type of person who disregards facts because being angry just feels better.

OOfff
01-11-2019, 06:24 AM
Or I guess it could be you are the type of person who disregards facts because being angry just feels better.

Did you just ďI know you are but what am IĒ him/her?

Andy
01-11-2019, 07:43 AM
It is really very simple: ALPA put out a verifiably false campaign. Easily verifiably false. It takes literally just a few minutes to verify that most of what ALPA said in its anti-Norwegian campaign is false. It is truly sad that you either cannot comprehend it, or that you willfully turn a blind eye. I guess you are an ends justify the means type of person.

Norwegian, according to their own website, have 5 AOCs from 4 different countries.

From Norwegian's website:
Norwegian has been granted two AOCs by the Civil Aviation Authority in Norway. One is for Norwegian Air Norway (NAN), while the other is for Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS). Norwegian has also been granted an Irish AOC for its subsidiary Norwegian Air International Limited (NAI), which is based in Dublin. The company's UK subsidiary based in London, Norwegian UK (NUK), also holds a UK AOC. Norwegian Air Argentina (NAA), Norwegian's subsiduary in Argentina, was granted an AOC in 2018.


How many other airlines have AOCs in multiple countries? I don't know of any other. Get back to us on what you think Flag of Convenience means.

NEDude
01-11-2019, 08:08 AM
Norwegian, according to their own website, have 5 AOCs from 4 different countries.

From Norwegian's website:
Norwegian has been granted two AOCs by the Civil Aviation Authority in Norway. One is for Norwegian Air Norway (NAN), while the other is for Norwegian Air Shuttle (NAS). Norwegian has also been granted an Irish AOC for its subsidiary Norwegian Air International Limited (NAI), which is based in Dublin. The company's UK subsidiary based in London, Norwegian UK (NUK), also holds a UK AOC. Norwegian Air Argentina (NAA), Norwegian's subsiduary in Argentina, was granted an AOC in 2018.


How many other airlines have AOCs in multiple countries? I don't know of any other. Get back to us on what you think Flag of Convenience means.

Really?! Where have you been for the past few years? It has been discussed MANY, MANY times. But clearly you have the attention span of a gnat, so I will remind you...again.

Lufthansa owns AOCs in Germany, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, and Italy. Thomas Cook owns AOCs in the UK, Denmark, Germany, and Spain. IAG owns AOCs in the UK, Spain, Ireland, and Austria. Air France-KLM owns AOCs in France and the Netherlands. TUI owns AOCs in the UK, France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, and Sweden. EasyJet owns AOCs in the UK, Switzerland and Austria.

Do you think you can remember that now?! (Seriously, this is about the 250th time it has been mentioned in Norwegian threads. It really is not that hard a concept to grasp here folks...)

Regarding a flag of convenience: it is very simple, it is registering in a different country to escape regulations and labor laws. But again, AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES (!!!!), EASA and EU regulations have not allowed Norwegian to escape any regulations or labor laws as a result of NAI or any of the other AOCs. All of the AOCs, except for the Argentinian AOC (which does not have authority to operate in Europe or the United States) fall under the regulatory supervision of EASA. EU law states that employees are covered under the labor laws of the country in which they are based, the country of the company of contract employment, EU labor laws, and EASA regulations. A NAI pilot based in Denmark (where there is a large NAI base), is governed under Irish and Danish labor laws, and all are compliant with EU labor laws. NAS pilots based in Rome (where there is a large NAS base) are covered under Norwegian and Italian labor laws, as well as EU labor laws. And it goes on and on. The AOCs have not allowed them to escape labor laws, it has exposed them to having to comply with more labor laws (and it has caused a lot of headaches for the company too). It has not allowed them escape any regulations as EASA inspectors from any EASA country have full authority to conduct inspections anywhere an Norwegian EASA AOC operates. Can you understand this or is it too complicated?

NEDude
01-11-2019, 08:15 AM
Did you just “I know you are but what am I” him/her?

Ummm no. I simply am pointing out that refusal to accept easily verifiable facts can only mean one of three things: a person is too lazy to easily verify the facts, the facts are dismissed because the false narrative just feels better, or the ends justify the means.

Andy
01-11-2019, 09:17 AM
Really?! Where have you been for the past few years? It has been discussed MANY, MANY times. But clearly you have the attention span of a gnat, so I will remind you...again.

Lufthansa owns AOCs in Germany, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, and Italy. Thomas Cook owns AOCs in the UK, Denmark, Germany, and Spain. IAG owns AOCs in the UK, Spain, Ireland, and Austria. Air France-KLM owns AOCs in France and the Netherlands. TUI owns AOCs in the UK, France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, and Sweden. EasyJet owns AOCs in the UK, Switzerland and Austria.

Do you think you can remember that now?! (Seriously, this is about the 250th time it has been mentioned in Norwegian threads. It really is not that hard a concept to grasp here folks...)

Regarding a flag of convenience: it is very simple, it is registering in a different country to escape regulations and labor laws. But again, AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT NUMEROUS TIMES (!!!!), EASA and EU regulations have not allowed Norwegian to escape any regulations or labor laws as a result of NAI or any of the other AOCs. All of the AOCs, except for the Argentinian AOC (which does not have authority to operate in Europe or the United States) fall under the regulatory supervision of EASA. EU law states that employees are covered under the labor laws of the country in which they are based, the country of the company of contract employment, EU labor laws, and EASA regulations. A NAI pilot based in Denmark (where there is a large NAI base), is governed under Irish and Danish labor laws, and all are compliant with EU labor laws. NAS pilots based in Rome (where there is a large NAS base) are covered under Norwegian and Italian labor laws, as well as EU labor laws. And it goes on and on. The AOCs have not allowed them to escape labor laws, it has exposed them to having to comply with more labor laws (and it has caused a lot of headaches for the company too). It has not allowed them escape any regulations as EASA inspectors from any EASA country have full authority to conduct inspections anywhere an Norwegian EASA AOC operates. Can you understand this or is it too complicated?

Nice rant.

europilots need to consolidate their feces and stop allowing parent companies to operate multiple AOCs because they're just getting whipsawed. Scope - get some.

So, are you actually trying to state that Norwegian's pay and benefits are the same no matter which AOC a crewmember flies? Because that's not true and it's part of Flag of Convenience operations - hiring labor for lower rates than they would have to in their home country.

NEDude
01-11-2019, 10:56 AM
Nice rant.

europilots need to consolidate their feces and stop allowing parent companies to operate multiple AOCs because they're just getting whipsawed. Scope - get some.

So, are you actually trying to state that Norwegian's pay and benefits are the same no matter which AOC a crewmember flies? Because that's not true and it's part of Flag of Convenience operations - hiring labor for lower rates than they would have to in their home country.

U.S. pilots need to get their feces together and stop allowing mainline to sublease the flying to low paying regionals.

Norwegian's pay and benefits differ on the operating base, irrespective of AOC. NAI pilots based in Copenhagen get paid more than NUK pilots based in Gatwick. NAS pilots based in CDG have a different contract than NAS pilots based in BCN. NAN pilots based in Bergen have a different contract than NAI pilots based in Stockholm. It is not the AOC that determines the pay and work rules, it is the operating base.

Please, ask more questions which expose your ignorance.

at6d
01-11-2019, 11:56 AM
U.S. pilots need to get their feces together and stop allowing mainline to sublease the flying to low paying regionals.

Norwegian's pay and benefits differ on the operating base, irrespective of AOC. NAI pilots based in Copenhagen get paid more than NUK pilots based in Gatwick. NAS pilots based in CDG have a different contract than NAS pilots based in BCN. NAN pilots based in Bergen have a different contract than NAI pilots based in Stockholm. It is not the AOC that determines the pay and work rules, it is the operating base.

Please, ask more questions which expose your ignorance.

As soon as the pilots are in charge of the company....

Andy
01-11-2019, 03:47 PM
Please, ask more questions which expose your ignorance.

How's that great flying job with WoW working out? Oh yeah, you re not even flying anymore. But of course it's MUCH better for pilots in euroland, eh?

Left the US and are now a sim instructor.... but I'm sure you're a great pilot. :rolleyes:

OOfff
01-11-2019, 04:23 PM
How's that great flying job with WoW working out? Oh yeah, you re not even flying anymore. But of course it's MUCH better for pilots in euroland, eh?

Left the US and are now a sim instructor.... but I'm sure you're a great pilot. :rolleyes:

Yikes. You need some chill

captjns
01-11-2019, 07:03 PM
How's that great flying job with WoW working out? Oh yeah, you re not even flying anymore. But of course it's MUCH better for pilots in euroland, eh?

Left the US and are now a sim instructor.... but I'm sure you're a great pilot. :rolleyes:

Board pulling wings off of flies are you mate?:rolleyes:

dera
01-11-2019, 09:05 PM
How's that great flying job with WoW working out? Oh yeah, you re not even flying anymore. But of course it's MUCH better for pilots in euroland, eh?

Left the US and are now a sim instructor.... but I'm sure you're a great pilot. :rolleyes:

Tool of the day award goes to...

NEDude
01-11-2019, 10:23 PM
How's that great flying job with WoW working out? Oh yeah, you re not even flying anymore. But of course it's MUCH better for pilots in euroland, eh?

Left the US and are now a sim instructor.... but I'm sure you're a great pilot. :rolleyes:

And the meltdown has occurred...

sailingfun
01-12-2019, 05:55 AM
Ummm no. I simply am pointing out that refusal to accept easily verifiable facts can only mean one of three things: a person is too lazy to easily verify the facts, the facts are dismissed because the false narrative just feels better, or the ends justify the means.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1272&context=byuplr

Joachim
01-12-2019, 08:05 AM
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1272&context=byuplr

I spent 30 seconds looking at that ďscholarly articleĒ by miss Tinesha. Iím sure she got a fine grade for proper format and supplying references. Unfortunately it contains the same spurious claims some of you have made here. For example: ďNAI is able to offer such low-cost flights by outsourcing labor to low-cost Asian countries, such as Thailand.5Ē. NAI does not have any Thai crews. It is the Irish subsidy who flies 737s exclusively. NAS does have Thai crew but it just so happens to be the Norwegian AOC for which you must have an EASA license. Those crew are mostly if not all European.

A young student can be excused for being unaware of the actual situation but anyone who slanders, wishes ill, or cries for government intervention better be sure in their cause. In this case the intellectual laziness on the part of some industry professionals and organizations is inexcusable.

NEDude
01-12-2019, 08:24 AM
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1272&context=byuplr

It is an interesting opinion. But ultimately it was just that, an opinion. It is an opinion that means nothing. If you are interested in the opinion that actually counts, read here:

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/17-1012/17-1012-2018-05-11.html

Among the comments: "The government agencies charged with negotiating and interpreting the Agreement agree with us that Article 17 bis provides no basis for denying a permit."

FAAFlyer
01-12-2019, 01:49 PM
U.S. pilots need to get their feces together and stop allowing mainline to sublease the flying to low paying regionals.

Norwegian's pay and benefits differ on the operating base, irrespective of AOC. NAI pilots based in Copenhagen get paid more than NUK pilots based in Gatwick. NAS pilots based in CDG have a different contract than NAS pilots based in BCN. NAN pilots based in Bergen have a different contract than NAI pilots based in Stockholm. It is not the AOC that determines the pay and work rules, it is the operating base.

Please, ask more questions which expose your ignorance.

I would agree that mainline needs to stop subleasing their operations out. I would also argue that pilots should not enable the regionals by accepting low wage pilot positions.

I assume you never accepted that type of employment in the past?

Joachim
01-13-2019, 04:02 AM
I would agree that mainline needs to stop subleasing their operations out. I would also argue that pilots should not enable the regionals by accepting low wage pilot positions.

I assume you never accepted that type of employment in the past?

Pilots who think that the airline industry is predominantly shaped by their decisions have illusions of grandeur and are not grounded in reality. Not many student pilot graduates and thinks to themselves ďIíll wait to take a job until this airline industry does things MY wayĒ.

Andy
01-13-2019, 05:32 AM
I would agree that mainline needs to stop subleasing their operations out. I would also argue that pilots should not enable the regionals by accepting low wage pilot positions.

I assume you never accepted that type of employment in the past?

NEDude flew for regionals for quite a while. He finally got hired at Virgin, but left Virgin for WoW Air. WoW Air never renewed his pilot contract so now, in the greatest pilot hiring boom in history, he's a sim instructor.
That means he's no longer maintaining commercial flying currency and will soon be pretty much unhirable except at operations that only require a pulse to get hired.

He's now on here telling us all how great and how bad it is for pilots in euroland. That the standard of living's so much better over there yet the wages at most airlines suck over there.

From reading all of his rants on this board, I'm absolutely unable to figure out why a legacy never hired him. :rolleyes:

Andy
01-13-2019, 05:36 AM
And the meltdown has occurred...

LOL. Don't like the way your curriculum vitae reads when distilled down to a couple of sentences?

FollowMe
01-13-2019, 05:41 AM
LOL. Don't like the way your curriculum vitae reads when distilled down to a couple of sentences?

It was probably the fact that you decided not to address or refute a single point he raised, and headed straight for ad hominem. And then came back later to double down on it.

NEDude
01-13-2019, 06:57 AM
NEDude flew for regionals for quite a while. He finally got hired at Virgin, but left Virgin for WoW Air. WoW Air never renewed his pilot contract so now, in the greatest pilot hiring boom in history, he's a sim instructor.
That means he's no longer maintaining commercial flying currency and will soon be pretty much unhirable except at operations that only require a pulse to get hired.

He's now on here telling us all how great and how bad it is for pilots in euroland. That the standard of living's so much better over there yet the wages at most airlines suck over there.

From reading all of his rants on this board, I'm absolutely unable to figure out why a legacy never hired him. :rolleyes:


Obviously I hit a nerve. Don't cry too much.

Personal attacks are a clear sign of desperation.

SUX4U
01-13-2019, 09:00 AM
Obviously I hit a nerve. Don't cry too much.

Personal attacks are a clear sign of desperation.

I agree. I personally donít like how a lot of Euro airlines run their business just as much as I donít like how a lot of US airlines run their business. Both sides have blood on their hands. As much as I donít understand why you spend so much time explaining, defending the messed up Euro model, you donít deserve personal insults.

NEDude
01-13-2019, 09:46 AM
I agree. I personally don’t like how a lot of Euro airlines run their business just as much as I don’t like how a lot of US airlines run their business. Both sides have blood on their hands. As much as I don’t understand why you spend so much time explaining, defending the messed up Euro model, you don’t deserve personal insults.

Mostly because I believe a site like this should be a place to share accurate information. I don't care if anyone likes this business model. But I do think if a person is going to be angry, they should at least be angry based on correct information and not based on information that is easily verifiably false. Getting angry at Norwegian for having multiple AOCs in multiple countries while being intentionally ignorant of the fact that many other airlines do the same thing makes a person look like a fool. But hey, I will happily stop if others admit they prefer to wallow in their own ignorance.

I should add that I really don't care about the personal attacks. I actually find them amusing. It is clear when a person resorts to personal attacks, they know they lack the ability to come up with any rational response.

Slaphappy
01-13-2019, 02:08 PM
WoW air, Norwegian all going away.
Won't shed a tear for them.

NEDude
01-14-2019, 03:40 AM
WoW air, Norwegian all going away.
Won't shed a tear for them.

Wait...what?! You won't shed a tear?! Oh no! What ever will we do?! Slaphappy will not shed a tear! This is the worst news ever!

Get over yourself...

Gooner
01-16-2019, 07:38 AM
The problem that ALPA has with NAI is legal precedent. We complain about how regionals are bad and should go away. The problem was they were allowed in a dark time for airline pilot scope and that now there is legal precedent that they are allowed and canít be challenged as a subversion of mainline contracts.

So with regards to NAI they came in claiming they arenít hiring Thai crews they were hiring local crews. However once it becomes acceptable and no challenge from ALPA, then a little bit of economic hardship NAI makes a statement that to remain competitive they will have to exercise their capabilities to bring in foreign crews. Just like that a whole can of worms are opened. Now every airline wants this type of flexibility.

Just because an airline comes in playing cards above the table doesnít mean that the long term play isnít more dangerous. Even if NAI didnít plan on doing it, once there is a legal precedent some other airline can try to come in with the worst intentions to finish what NAI started.

Itís worth being worried about and ALPA was right to challenge it. As a profession we struggle with not judging an opportunity that seems like a good deal as too good to be true. Hard I know, as I went to work for a regional because I was a pilot that needed a job and was offered one to fly. The responsibility lies in mainline pilots, through ALPA, to fight any contract subversion and try to get every mainline job possible available to as many pilots as possible so that there isnít a reason to consider the others.

NEDude
01-16-2019, 10:52 AM
The problem that ALPA has with NAI is legal precedent. We complain about how regionals are bad and should go away. The problem was they were allowed in a dark time for airline pilot scope and that now there is legal precedent that they are allowed and can’t be challenged as a subversion of mainline contracts.

So with regards to NAI they came in claiming they aren’t hiring Thai crews they were hiring local crews. However once it becomes acceptable and no challenge from ALPA, then a little bit of economic hardship NAI makes a statement that to remain competitive they will have to exercise their capabilities to bring in foreign crews. Just like that a whole can of worms are opened. Now every airline wants this type of flexibility.

Just because an airline comes in playing cards above the table doesn’t mean that the long term play isn’t more dangerous. Even if NAI didn’t plan on doing it, once there is a legal precedent some other airline can try to come in with the worst intentions to finish what NAI started.

It’s worth being worried about and ALPA was right to challenge it. As a profession we struggle with not judging an opportunity that seems like a good deal as too good to be true. Hard I know, as I went to work for a regional because I was a pilot that needed a job and was offered one to fly. The responsibility lies in mainline pilots, through ALPA, to fight any contract subversion and try to get every mainline job possible available to as many pilots as possible so that there isn’t a reason to consider the others.

The problem is that there are Thai based crews (Pilots are all EU/EEA/CH citizens with EASA licenses and operating on EU standard contracts, cabin crew are Thai nationals), but they were hired to operate under the NAS AOC, which is based in Norway. In other words the basing of contract crew in BKK was and is completely legal under Norwegian labor law. NAI was irrelevant and unnecessary with regards to the BKK based crews. ALPA never mentioned that in their propaganda materials because it would destroy their narrative. ALPA tried to create a scary sounding narrative about a so-called 'flag of convenience' by falsely tying two un-related issues together. NAI was never about trying to hire Asian based contract crew because such an arrangement was and is totally legal under Norwegian laws. NAI has never had Asian based crews, they have always been operated under the Fornebeu, Norway based NAS AOC which is in no way a so-called 'flag of convenience'.

Gooner
01-16-2019, 12:42 PM
The problem is that there are Thai based crews (Pilots are all EU/EEA/CH citizens with EASA licenses and operating on EU standard contracts, cabin crew are Thai nationals), but they were hired to operate under the NAS AOC, which is based in Norway. In other words the basing of contract crew in BKK was and is completely legal under Norwegian labor law. NAI was irrelevant and unnecessary with regards to the BKK based crews. ALPA never mentioned that in their propaganda materials because it would destroy their narrative. ALPA tried to create a scary sounding narrative about a so-called 'flag of convenience' by falsely tying two un-related issues together. NAI was never about trying to hire Asian based contract crew because such an arrangement was and is totally legal under Norwegian laws. NAI has never had Asian based crews, they have always been operated under the Fornebeu, Norway based NAS AOC which is in no way a so-called 'flag of convenience'.

So you think ALPA lied by drawing a line from NAS AOC based BKK crews flying in Norway as a potential future problem? Doesnít seem like a huge leap of faith to me. The other EU airlines you cite as operating multiple certificates have shown no history of hiring contract crews from the other side of the world to fly routes, at least to my knowledge. Like Iíve said, the danger might not have been NAI themselves, they might never have tried a flag of convenience operation but they will have paved away for some new company to try it. Iíd also discourage thinking that an airline would never do anything, because they wonít right up until they do.

Andy
01-16-2019, 03:54 PM
I agree. I personally donít like how a lot of Euro airlines run their business just as much as I donít like how a lot of US airlines run their business. Both sides have blood on their hands. As much as I donít understand why you spend so much time explaining, defending the messed up Euro model, you donít deserve personal insults.

The guy has spent the last couple of years talking up how great it is in euroland for pilots. And now he's not even in a flying job.

On top of that, the guy rambled on how Norwegian isn't Flag of Convenience, yet freely admits that Norwegian pays lower wages outside of Norway. What is it that people think Flag of Convenience is? It's about lowering costs and paying crews lower wages with worse work rules outside of Norway is exactly the definition of Flag of Convenience. But, according to him, I'm the ignorant one about Flag of Convenience. I suppose he meant it as a compliment????

dera
01-16-2019, 07:55 PM
The guy has spent the last couple of years talking up how great it is in euroland for pilots. And now he's not even in a flying job.

On top of that, the guy rambled on how Norwegian isn't Flag of Convenience, yet freely admits that Norwegian pays lower wages outside of Norway. What is it that people think Flag of Convenience is? It's about lowering costs and paying crews lower wages with worse work rules outside of Norway is exactly the definition of Flag of Convenience. But, according to him, I'm the ignorant one about Flag of Convenience. I suppose he meant it as a compliment????

Have you ever been to Europe?
Do you know what EASA is?
Have you ever heard of EU/EEA?

NEDude
01-16-2019, 11:10 PM
The guy has spent the last couple of years talking up how great it is in euroland for pilots. And now he's not even in a flying job.

On top of that, the guy rambled on how Norwegian isn't Flag of Convenience, yet freely admits that Norwegian pays lower wages outside of Norway. What is it that people think Flag of Convenience is? It's about lowering costs and paying crews lower wages with worse work rules outside of Norway is exactly the definition of Flag of Convenience. But, according to him, I'm the ignorant one about Flag of Convenience. I suppose he meant it as a compliment????

I have not been talking it up about how great it is in "Euroland" for pilots. I have pointed out the differences. I have also pointed out how EU and EEA law works and how it is different than how the U.S. works because clearly there is a lot of ignorance on this board.

"Flag of Convenience" is setting up a subsidiary outside of your home country for the purpose, in part, of escaping labor laws of your home country. EU/EEA laws and EASA regulations prevent this from being able to happen as the employees are covered under the most restrictive applicable laws. BKK based pilots operating for NAS are covered under Norwegian labor laws (because they are operating for a Norwegian based company and AOC), EU/EEA labor laws (because Norway is part of the EEA), EASA regulations (because they are operating EASA registered aircraft under an EASA license), and Thai labor laws (because they were based in Thailand). Copenhagen based pilots for NAS are covered under Norwegian, Danish, EU/EEA, and EASA laws and regulations. BKK did not allow Norwegian to escape Norwegian labor laws. And again, none of this has anything to do with NAI, which was totally unrelated to the BKK pilot base. ALPA intentionally made a false connection between NAI and BKK. Because the BKK base was not operated under a foreign (to Norway) based AOC, and because it did not allow Norwegian to escape Norwegian labor laws, nothing about it comes close to meeting the definition of flag of convenience. NAS having BKK based crews is no different than United having HKG based crews (which they had).

Regarding the other carriers using contract crews with foreign based contracts, you may want to take a closer look. In September 2016 I was offered a contract with Brussels Airlines (part of the Lufthansa group and a Star Alliance carrier). It was a contract, not direct employment, and the contract was through an agency based in Dubai. Again, this was totally legal and allowed under Belgian and EU labor laws. No so-called 'flag of convenience' required. So yes, the other carriers mentioned do use contract employees through non-European agencies.

NEDude
01-17-2019, 12:13 AM
Andy, let's try this from a different angle. Please explain to me why United having Asian crews based in Hong Kong is perfectly fine, and not a 'flag of convenience' scheme, but Norwegian Air Shuttle having Asian crews based in Bangkok is a 'flag of convenience' and a threat to U.S. airlines.

caflyer
01-17-2019, 01:29 AM
Andy, let's try this from a different angle. Please explain to me why United having Asian crews based in Hong Kong is perfectly fine, and not a 'flag of convenience' scheme, but Norwegian Air Shuttle having Asian crews based in Bangkok is a 'flag of convenience' and a threat to U.S. airlines.

The HKG flight attendants (and NRT, and LHR etc) work under the same contract and get the same pay.

NEDude
01-17-2019, 02:10 AM
The HKG flight attendants (and NRT, and LHR etc) work under the same contract and get the same pay.

That is due to the union at United. The fundamental issue of the corporate structure of basing crews in bases outside of the United States is still the same as Norwegian Air Shuttle basing crews outside of Europe.

Are you making the argument that ALPA was not campaigning against the corporate structure, but rather the union contracts? Would ALPA have been okay with NAI if NAS crews in BKK had the same contract as the NAS crews in Europe (BTW - for pilots it was the same)? Do you contend that a temporary and amendable union contract determines whether one is a flag of convenience and the other is not, regardless of corporate structure?

SUX4U
01-17-2019, 12:04 PM
The guy has spent the last couple of years talking up how great it is in euroland for pilots. And now he's not even in a flying job.

On top of that, the guy rambled on how Norwegian isn't Flag of Convenience, yet freely admits that Norwegian pays lower wages outside of Norway. What is it that people think Flag of Convenience is? It's about lowering costs and paying crews lower wages with worse work rules outside of Norway is exactly the definition of Flag of Convenience. But, according to him, I'm the ignorant one about Flag of Convenience. I suppose he meant it as a compliment????

I get it Andy, and I donít necessarily like what he has to say just as much as you donít. Itís different over there and I prefer what we have here vs their setup. I think you do a great job with your discussions on here for the most part but when you start throwing cheap shots vs sticking to the argument it comes off poorly.

fireman0174
01-17-2019, 03:07 PM
The HKG flight attendants (and NRT, and LHR etc) work under the same contract and get the same pay.
I don't believe that was true of the Singapore flight attendants. Not 100% certain however.

NEDude
01-17-2019, 11:33 PM
I get it Andy, and I donít necessarily like what he has to say just as much as you donít. Itís different over there and I prefer what we have here vs their setup. I think you do a great job with your discussions on here for the most part but when you start throwing cheap shots vs sticking to the argument it comes off poorly.

I find it a bit funny that Andy is hung up on the fact that I am not currently in a flying job, as if that is somehow an insult. I have kids that I want to spend time with as they are growing up. Working in the sim as a TRI, at a sim center that is ten minutes from my house, allows me to be home more often and be a more active part of their lives than I would if I was flying full time. For now, being with my kids on a daily basis is more important to me. If you find that hard to comprehend, I feel very sorry for you.

captjns
01-18-2019, 04:26 AM
I find it a bit funny that Andy is hung up on the fact that I am not currently in a flying job, as if that is somehow an insult. I have kids that I want to spend time with as they are growing up. Working in the sim as a TRI, at a sim center that is ten minutes from my house, allows me to be home more often and be a more active part of their lives than I would if I was flying full time. For now, being with my kids on a daily basis is more important to me. If you find that hard to comprehend, I feel very sorry for you.

Excuse me sir! You are in a flying job... however, in a different, capacity, imparting knowledge, experience, and disciplines required that of an individual at the controls with 160+ pax and crew in the back of the jet.

Family comes first, true. Great to compromise.... home every night... and still gainfully employed in an industry that you enjoy. You want to fly??? rent a C-172... take the kids for a ride... who knows you may be their instructor.

Expat flying afforded me to be within 15 minutes of the airport for 14 to 20 days with my wife... and 2 to 3 weeks home, also with my wife.

Never happen in the U.S. The closest, with an ACMI, (ala OMNI, ATLAS, Kaliyah) in most cases would be 14 to 16 days per month at a base with the rest of the month off. Yeah... with the legacies with descent seniority without swapping, trading, or using the services of a swap broker (for a fee of cause), one can parley their schedule to have descent amounts of time off with the family.

With that said... does one put life style with the job or is it the job ahead of one’s style of life?

TrojanCMH
01-18-2019, 12:52 PM
Whatís a swap broker?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PDRit
01-18-2019, 03:47 PM
Um, no, not even close. Just calling out the guy in the now Ivory towers looking down on the Americans based in FLL/PVD at Norwegian with a comment like: "I don't feel one bit bad for someone who took a lower paying job just so they could fly a widebody international when they knew the possible ramifications in the industry."

Reality is no ramifications were done to US widebody flying and it seems the FLL/PVD operation of Norwegian is going to go poof. As if these Americans went to Norwegian just to "stick it" to the other American pilots? Come on now, you have to be honest and at least admit that every single one of these guys would have instead taken a job at the big 6 if they had called. They never called, but Norwegian did. How about the big 6 hire pilots that are that highly qualified enough to fly 737/787s at Norwegian in the first place? That would solve a lot of issues.

The comment I made was a sarcastic rolling eye comment (with that smiley) in order to show the ridiculousness of the original quoted statement.

The guys hired at Norwegian were never getting a call from a legacy. Thereís a reason they were looking at the back door to widebody and international ops. Something in their personality or past would have kept them out. Now many of them think they are more hireable with Norwegian time. Instead they have the scarlet N to deal with.

captjns
01-18-2019, 05:28 PM
The guys hired at Norwegian were never getting a call from a legacy. Thereís a reason they were looking at the back door to widebody and international ops. Something in their personality or past would have kept them out. Now many of them think they are more hireable with Norwegian time. Instead they have the scarlet N to deal with.

And there you have it folks fresh from a reporter from TASS. After all theyíd never spread alternative facts:rolleyes:.

Lemon Jello
01-18-2019, 08:57 PM
Whatís a swap broker?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe its an app, like Tinder, except for couples......?

NEDude
01-19-2019, 12:33 AM
The guys hired at Norwegian were never getting a call from a legacy. Thereís a reason they were looking at the back door to widebody and international ops. Something in their personality or past would have kept them out. Now many of them think they are more hireable with Norwegian time. Instead they have the scarlet N to deal with.

From what I hear, the number of actual American guys hired was very small. Perhaps 30 to 40 at most. Apparently most of the other guys were European or South American, who via some means, had the right to live and work in the States. I did hear that at least a few of the American guys who went to the left seat of the 787 were former Qatar, Emirates and Etihad guys who wanted to spend a few more years flying in the States before retiring. Not sure about the F/Os or the 737 guys.



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