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View Full Version : ATI hiring through 2019


No Land 3
03-12-2019, 03:50 PM
Same thing happened at the regionals in 2012-215. The pre shortage push for concessions was on.... all the regionals were voting no to concessions. Republic, Expressjet, Eagle did 3x, even silver voted no....
BOOM, PSA Voted yes to concessions in exchange for some of Eagles planes and a flow. Their whole MEC was at American within a year... leaving behind a 10 year concessionary contract.
All it takes is one.

Personally I think Teamsters & ALPA should file joint action lawsuit against federal government that the RLA doesnít apply to ACMI or Regionals.

When RLA was written you couldnít go to a PanAm pilot and demand concessions under threat of giving their flying to TWA. The RLA wasnít written with the contractor business model in mind, and as a result the built in status quo protections for fair negotiations arenít there.

Not that anyone cares on this forum, but Mesa also voted no to an insulting offering from J.O. and friends(Mesa ALPA)


gumpscheck
03-12-2019, 06:55 PM
My responses are in red.

Astar, the point is that if you guys would have stuck together with the ABX Neg. Comm. you all would have gotten a much better deal. I am not even talking about Single Carrier. I am just talking about both groups cooperating. However, Mongo and his cronies were too eager to comply to V1ís and JHís request. Evidently this was done for the big prize of more airplanes and cities.

History has shown that there is always strength in numbers. But thatís ok. The past is the past. We canít do anything about it. The rest of us in the ACMI world will move on and get our deal. Even if it means burning down the White Castle.

flyguy727
03-13-2019, 03:50 AM
What's ATI current work schedule aND benefits?


flyguy727
03-13-2019, 04:00 AM
Looking for some feedback please. I have a job offer from both Atlas & ATI. After reviewing the pros and cons of both companies, I'm currently torn between which direction to go in. Any advice? Also, why is there so much hatred directed towards ATI?
Isn't that a common trait in the industry? Pilots are never happy, and there own worse enemies.

NeverHome
03-13-2019, 06:57 AM
So any word on classes?

ACMItrash
03-13-2019, 09:53 AM
What's ATI current work schedule aND benefits?

17 to 34 days on with some 4 hour airport sits at 4 am. It's awesome. Then 12 days off!

fr8dog61
03-15-2019, 02:35 AM
So any word on classes?

Yes. In the pool at ATI. Any word on classes?

nightsky2
03-28-2019, 05:07 AM
Yes. In the pool at ATI. Any word on classes?

I'm hearing a class of 12 starting 8 April. 2 more same size later not sure about those dates.

Inside DEENA
04-06-2019, 05:13 AM
Class of 12 starting April 29th.

ID

dynap09
04-06-2019, 08:47 AM
17 to 34 days on with some 4 hour airport sits at 4 am. It's awesome. Then 12 days off!

If you are doing 34 days on and 12 days off - what kind of money are you making? That would be wildly over guarantee.

Cujo665
04-06-2019, 10:24 AM
If you are doing 34 days on and 12 days off - what kind of money are you making? That would be wildly over guarantee.

Heís talking bidding stupidly and getting back to back 17 day trips over transition, and they have no pay over ride for that. So, straight pay for both months.

nightsky2
04-08-2019, 01:17 PM
Met the latest class of 12 today in ILN. 2 more verified coming shortly thereafter. Great place to work, but not for anyone expecting to be pampered. Sometimes it's just plane ole hard work. We still have fun.https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

dogo
04-09-2019, 08:54 AM
there is nothing fun working with your management....except watching your VP do a highspeed abort after V1 with the configuration warning blaring in the background! Now thatís funny.

Palomarracer
04-11-2019, 05:34 PM
Just got the call to interview on the 24th. Been applying for close to 8 months. Anyone know what I can expect or how to prepare? I do know I have get myself there etc... but do they give you full pay/hotel through training?

asherpa
04-11-2019, 06:21 PM
Just got the call to interview on the 24th. Been applying for close to 8 months. Anyone know what I can expect or how to prepare? I do know I have get myself there etc... but do they give you full pay/hotel through training?

Hiii
Do you guys know if ATI is hiring now or in near future???
Thank you... appreciate

l8fr82hub
04-11-2019, 07:17 PM
Hiii
Do you guys know if ATI is hiring now or in near future???
Thank you... appreciate
The app window should be opening soon. As for hiring it depends on how many have already interviewed.

asherpa
04-11-2019, 07:46 PM
The app window should be opening soon. As for hiring it depends on how many have already interviewed.

Thank you mate

FmrPropCapt
04-13-2019, 11:40 AM
Delete.....

nightsky2
04-15-2019, 02:12 PM
Just got the call to interview on the 24th. Been applying for close to 8 months. Anyone know what I can expect or how to prepare? I do know I have get myself there etc... but do they give you full pay/hotel through training?

Just like any other airline interview, don't be late. If you have been invited it is your job to lose. They are looking for pilots who get along well with others for long flights and long (16 day) trips. Have some knowledge about what we do, Amazon, DHL, Combis. Don't sweat the sim. They are looking for trainability. Confidence vs cockiness; know the difference and you'll be fine. You will get full pay plus per diem starting day one of class. There will be some kind of transportation set up for the class probably a van. You don't need a car for training.

dogo
04-15-2019, 03:26 PM
Letís be real......fog a mirror and you are hired!

Jurassic Jet
04-15-2019, 03:59 PM
Letís be real......fog a mirror and you are hired!

Beat me to it.

727CA
04-15-2019, 08:50 PM
Beat me to it.

Is you're airline hiring?

nitefr8dog
04-16-2019, 03:46 AM
Is you're airline hiring?
Yes..........new hire classes throughout the summer.

woog315
04-16-2019, 06:09 AM
Yes..........new hire classes throughout the summer.

Haha, I hope youre just desperately trying to win an argument because the level of hiring at ABX is a joke compared to ATI

dogo
04-16-2019, 07:08 AM
The reason there is a difference in hiring between the two, ABX president shot his big mouth off threatening the pilot group. We just returned the favor. ATI pilot group lacks that fortitude

nitefr8dog
04-16-2019, 07:22 AM
Haha, I hope youre just desperately trying to win an argument because the level of hiring at ABX is a joke compared to ATI
Don't shoot the messenger......just answering the question. There was talk of up to 50 new hires but that would drag into the 4th qtr. I think 25ish is the current plan. Is that ok with you?

woog315
04-16-2019, 08:39 AM
Don't shoot the messenger......just answering the question. There was talk of up to 50 new hires but that would drag into the 4th qtr. I think 25ish is the current plan. Is that ok with you?

Hey, I appreciate optimism as much as anyone.

nitefr8dog
04-16-2019, 11:27 AM
Hey, I appreciate optimism as much as anyone.
Me too....even guarded.

goinaround
04-16-2019, 12:11 PM
Hey....if the powers at ABX are smart...they'll hire all the non college degreed, low jet PIC, lowered expectation pilots they can find. Then when the retirement waterfall begins....they'll be the majority to sign in a super-soapy contract.

Guinnesslovr
04-16-2019, 02:05 PM
Just got a voicemail to schedule an interview with ATI. Any idea on class dates after the 29th?

balmy
04-16-2019, 02:21 PM
I applied back in February and received a call for an interview today as well. I probably wouldn't be able to go until June. Curious what class dates, hiring projections and if there are new aircraft being added for the continued hiring? Thanks.

nitefr8dog
04-16-2019, 02:30 PM
Hey....if the powers at ABX are smart...they'll hire all the non college degreed, low jet PIC, lowered expectation pilots they can find. Then when the retirement waterfall begins....they'll be the majority to sign in a super-soapy contract.
Pretty sure that is the same pool all acmi will be hiring from going forward...

Jecain7
04-16-2019, 04:35 PM
I got a call today as well, I was taking a nap and didn't answer. Sorta interested but to evaluate my current job vs taking on something completely different.

Jurassic Jet
04-16-2019, 05:07 PM
I got a call today as well, I was taking a nap and didn't answer. Sorta interested but to evaluate my current job vs taking on something completely different.

The nap will do way better for you than a job at any ATSG carrier.

727CA
04-16-2019, 08:09 PM
The nap will do way better for you than a job at any ATSG carrier.
Don't listen to the haters. I can't speak for all ATSG airlines, but ATI is hiring, and it's a great place to work.

Crazy Canuck
04-17-2019, 12:37 AM
Have any of you considering interviews at ATI done any research into this company? Have you realized the same guy who runs ABX and is vindictively putting them and their pilots through hardship is the same guy who runs ATI.

If that doesn't scare you, the fact ATI settled for 75 cents on the dollar, metaphorically, should.

dogo
04-17-2019, 01:00 PM
Post #285
Must be JVís son or Woodyís testes.

baldwin
04-17-2019, 01:43 PM
Post #285
Must be JVís son or Woodyís testes.

More like JV himself than his kid.
baby V has been running his mouth for the past year about how heís gonna leave for a legacy if he gets hired. He even told this to crazy Mike and his wife out in Stockton when they were doing ground transpo. hilarious.

dogo
04-17-2019, 04:00 PM
Heís gonna find out that his reputation has already preceded him. Iím sure one of the interview questions will be ďTell is about the time you almost ran a 767 out of gas!Ē

l8fr82hub
04-22-2019, 10:48 AM
ATI opened the First Officer application window today. It'll close on May 3rd.

Aerospeed
05-01-2019, 05:51 PM
If that doesn't scare you, the fact ATI settled for 75 cents on the dollar, metaphorically, should.

ATI is one of the highest paid in the cargo industry now. Next, we negotiate work rules. Itís called a two phase approach. All the while the rest (ex: ABX) are holding their hands out begging for at least one of our turds! Jealous pilots everywhere, we just ignore em. We got ours and moral is high at ATI!

dogo
05-02-2019, 04:22 AM
.....and no defined benefits program. Must be a 3 phased approach

Aerospeed
05-02-2019, 10:24 AM
.....and no defined benefits program. Must be a 3 phased approach

Nah, thatíll be part of phase two!

nitefr8dog
05-02-2019, 12:15 PM
Nah, thatíll be part of phase two!
You will never get any of it.....you took a low pay raise. And JH laughed all the way to the bank. The real money is the soft pay... you guys jumped on hourly....very short sided.

nitefr8dog
05-02-2019, 01:15 PM
Nah, thatíll be part of phase two!
This was your first contract with JH. ABX is on their 5th. No soft pay or scheduling protection or scope or decent disability pay. Its unlike anyone one else in the industry. Who gets 1500$ per day for going to JFK instead of MIA as scheduled? Sometimes 6 to 8 days a month! You set the bar by accepting a pay raise that was still short of what was available because you accepted a previous contract at food stamp wages and any improvement would have been hugh. JH will now tell you if you don't like it your aircraft will be moved to other sister companies. Why... because your contract allows it and you agreed to no strike clause. ATI is a toothless dog. You played right into his hand.

Jurassic Jet
05-02-2019, 02:33 PM
JH will now tell you if you don't like it your aircraft will be moved to other sister companies. Why... because your contract allows it and you agreed to no strike clause. ATI is a toothless dog. You played right into his hand.

They will learn real soon. Kind of like a perfect storm right about when the narrow body scope expires too. :cool:

Aerospeed
05-02-2019, 07:45 PM
You will never get any of it.....you took a low pay raise. And JH laughed all the way to the bank. The real money is the soft pay... you guys jumped on hourly....very short sided.

Nope, weíll for sure get what we want. No doubt about it!

nitefr8dog
05-03-2019, 02:59 AM
Nope, weíll for sure get what we want. No doubt about it!

Haha....now that is funny. Management troll. No doubt about it!

gumpscheck
05-03-2019, 08:27 AM
Nope, weíll for sure get what we want. No doubt about it!

Yep. And what you all want is whatever JH tells you what you want. Nothing more...

MentalMidget
05-03-2019, 01:46 PM
Nope, weíll for sure get what we want. No doubt about it!


I would suggest everyone ignore this clown aerospeed. He is obviously a paid management troll :eek:

l8fr82hub
05-08-2019, 07:51 AM
The application window is open again. Closes 5/17

Kingairguy08
05-08-2019, 08:44 AM
The application window is open again. Closes 5/17I wonder how often they are running classes or how large the pool is?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

point432
05-08-2019, 08:51 AM
The application window is open again. Closes 5/17



Why donít they just leave the app open? They make it sound so exclusive, like its Hawaiian or etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

l8fr82hub
05-08-2019, 02:35 PM
I wonder how often they are running classes or how large the pool is?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk



I donít know about the pool size, but so far theyíve hired two classes with a total of 28

jcolon
05-08-2019, 03:53 PM
Hi everyone, I was called to go for an interview with ATI some time in June. I know a couple of Captains there and both used to be a little bit arrogant as part of their personality. I honestly don't know if they are still the same... but I was wondering if as part of the "non-written" requirements to get hire, was also to be arrogant as the common denominator among those guys; If that is the case, I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

baldwin
05-08-2019, 04:07 PM
thatís one strange cat.

or a really weird troll?

I canít tell...

goinaround
05-08-2019, 04:14 PM
Hi everyone, I was called to go for an interview with ATI some time in June. I know a couple of Captains there and both used to be a little bit arrogant as part of their personality. I honestly don't know if they are still the same... but I was wondering if as part of the "non-written" requirements to get hire, was also to be arrogant as the common denominator among those guys; If that is the case, I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

Just go out there and be the biggest d*ck that you can be......

asherpa
05-08-2019, 05:52 PM
Hi everyone, I was called to go for an interview with ATI some time in June. I know a couple of Captains there and both used to be a little bit arrogant as part of their personality. I honestly don't know if they are still the same... but I was wondering if as part of the "non-written" requirements to get hire, was also to be arrogant as the common denominator among those guys; If that is the case, I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

Hiii... I did apply also and I received the Thank for applying automated email on 22nd April... do you know how long did you wait before the they call you for the interview.???? Thank you.... I really appreciate it.

Kingairguy08
05-08-2019, 06:00 PM
Hiii... I did apply also and I received the Thank for applying automated email on 22nd April... do you know how long did you wait before the they call you for the interview.???? Thank you.... I really appreciate it.It took a little over 6 months for me to get a call for a interview.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

bright yellow
05-09-2019, 02:20 AM
APC listed 3.5% b funds. Is this true with the recent TA?

b707guy
05-09-2019, 02:57 AM
APC listed 3.5% b funds. Is this true with the recent TA?


Company match is 3.5% non-elective (Company makes this contribution regardless of whether you participate), plus 50 cents on the dollar of what you contribute up to 2.5%, for a total of 6%. Total matching is not capped.

b707guy
05-09-2019, 05:14 AM
Hi everyone, I was called to go for an interview with ATI some time in June. I know a couple of Captains there and both used to be a little bit arrogant as part of their personality. I honestly don't know if they are still the same... but I was wondering if as part of the "non-written" requirements to get hire, was also to be arrogant as the common denominator among those guys; If that is the case, I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

Well, go ahead and interview, but I think your TBNT will go something like "We find your lack of arrogance disturbing. Please consider applying at our sister airline, where you may find a better fit". 😜

dogo
05-09-2019, 07:31 AM
Speaking of arrogance.....congratulations to your new assistant chief pilot, Ted L. Itís amazing ATI has become the depository for ABX rejects......enjoy!

woog315
05-09-2019, 08:17 AM
Company match is 3.5% non-elective (Company makes this contribution regardless of whether you participate), plus 50 cents on the dollar of what you contribute up to 2.5%, for a total of 6%. Total matching is not capped.

What you typed makes no sense. Total match is capped at 6% (just like you said... right before you said it wasn't capped) Total employee *contribution* is capped by IRS max of $19k, but there is no match above the 6%.

If your paycheck is $100,000 and you contribute at least 5% of your paycheck (to get the match), your 401k contribution from ATI will be $6k- so it would be fair to say your compensation was $106k. This is the max ATI will give you. Whatever you put in above that is up to you, but ATI won't contribute or match anything. This retirement is significantly worse than what ABX already has, so this is one of many reasons you will see people crying that ATI undercut the industry during a time of record expansion. Thanks again, guys.

Jurassic Jet
05-09-2019, 08:22 AM
Please consider applying at our sister airline, where you may find a better fit". 😜

You should really get off here for a bit and go fly. Youíve got ABX pensions to help fund. :D

dynap09
05-09-2019, 09:28 AM
I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

Probably should fly somewhere else.

ABX is hiring and you may fit in well there.

midnightshuttle
05-09-2019, 01:19 PM
Your pay will be SO jacked up you wont care about a 401 anymore.

baldwin
05-09-2019, 02:25 PM
Your pay will be SO jacked up you wont care about a 401 anymore.

Ummm, no.

.....

baldwin
05-09-2019, 02:36 PM
What you typed makes no sense. Total match is capped at 6% (just like you said... right before you said it wasn't capped) Total employee *contribution* is capped by IRS max of $19k, but there is no match above the 6%.

If your paycheck is $100,000 and you contribute at least 5% of your paycheck (to get the match), your 401k contribution from ATI will be $6k- so it would be fair to say your compensation was $106k. This is the max ATI will give you. Whatever you put in above that is up to you, but ATI won't contribute or match anything. This retirement is significantly worse than what ABX already has, so this is one of many reasons you will see people crying that ATI undercut the industry during a time of record expansion. Thanks again, guys.

I think what heís saying is the dollars matched isnít capped like it is at Kalitta ($10k)... so using your example, if your paycheck is $200,000
then your 401k contribution from ATI would be $12k... in other words slightly better than K4. Granted this would only be the case for 12+ year CAs because no one else at ATI would be grossing $200k

nitefr8dog
05-09-2019, 07:57 PM
7Hi everyone, I was called to go for an interview with ATI some time in June. I know a couple of Captains there and both used to be a little bit arrogant as part of their personality. I honestly don't know if they are still the same... but I was wondering if as part of the "non-written" requirements to get hire, was also to be arrogant as the common denominator among those guys; If that is the case, I'm just worried about how to pretend to be arrogant during the interview since I consider my self humble.

Go in with your pants around your ankles. Tell them you are not interested in anything competitive....retirement and schedules mean nothing to you. You will fit right in!

Whitesnake
05-13-2019, 01:57 PM
ATI is one of the highest paid in the cargo industry now. Next, we negotiate work rules. It’s called a two phase approach. All the while the rest (ex: ABX) are holding their hands out begging for at least one of our turds! Jealous pilots everywhere, we just ignore em. We got ours and moral is high at ATI!


You are a first class TOOL.
I hope you are enjoying your 6% matching and lump sum total, which was overwhelmingly deemed an improvement from your previous 6% matching total.
“Moral is High at ATI”
Love that !

Migz74
05-31-2019, 01:55 PM
Iíve got an interview coming up. Im planning to fly into CMH and rent a car. If thereís any other candidates that are interested in carpooling and splitting cost please send me a P.M.

Cheers and best of luck!

Archy Meatpants
06-07-2019, 02:33 PM
Was interested in applying but no job posting at this time on the ATI website. How can I apply? Or does ATI have hiring cycles? Thanks.

NeverHome
06-07-2019, 02:58 PM
Was interested in applying but no job posting at this time on the ATI website. How can I apply? Or does ATI have hiring cycles? Thanks.

The window periodically opens and closes. I suspect it wonít be too long before it opens again.

Kingairguy08
06-07-2019, 03:50 PM
Was interested in applying but no job posting at this time on the ATI website. How can I apply? Or does ATI have hiring cycles? Thanks.If you follow them on Facebook, they are constantly posting what positions are available, including first officers.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Jet757
06-18-2019, 10:40 AM
How many days off do ATI pilots get per month?

FlyAstarJets
06-18-2019, 12:22 PM
How many days off do ATI pilots get per month?

ATI works under a 28 day ďmonthĒ (13 ďmonthsĒ a year). In that 28 days, we work 16 days with travel to and from your assignment in that 16 day footprint and 12 off. We do have a few 7 on, 7 off lines in the DHL system.

All travel to and from assignments and lodging is 100% paid by company.

Hope this helps,
FAJ

Jet757
06-18-2019, 05:04 PM
ATI works under a 28 day ďmonthĒ (13 ďmonthsĒ a year). In that 28 days, we work 16 days with travel to and from your assignment in that 16 day footprint and 12 off. We do have a few 7 on, 7 off lines in the DHL system.



All travel to and from assignments and lodging is 100% paid by company.



Hope this helps,

FAJThank you.

flyboy94
06-28-2019, 01:49 PM
Anyone know when the next hiring window is to apply? I am extremely interested in ATI and the lifestyle I can handle at this point in my life.

Riverside
06-28-2019, 02:20 PM
Anyone know when the next hiring window is to apply? I am extremely interested in ATI and the lifestyle I can handle at this point in my life.

Desperation at its finest.

flyboy94
06-28-2019, 02:52 PM
Desperation at its finest.

Thanks for answer my question! If desperation is to have a job flying airplane's than yeah you are right.

ROBsINtheHOOD
06-28-2019, 03:11 PM
Itís , ď answering ď....
Airplanes....nor airplaneís....
Then .... not than
Geezus ! ... If you canít spell , can you fly ? Can you fill out a log book ? Do you have an education ? We are getting tired of substandard applicants in this highly skilled and technical profession.

maxjet
06-28-2019, 03:33 PM
Itís , ď answering ď....
Airplanes....nor airplaneís....
Then .... not than
Geezus ! ... If you canít spell , can you fly ? Can you fill out a log book ? Do you have an education ? We are getting tired of substandard applicants in this highly skilled and technical profession.

Really? You really want to go there with too many spaces in between words? Hahahaha

maxjet
06-28-2019, 03:41 PM
Thanks for answer my question! If desperation is to have a job flying airplane's than yeah you are right.

There was probably a time in Riversides career when he was as excited to have a job flying as you are. He has probably been hit so many times with a hammer, since then, that he has forgotten that time.

Two lessons from this. Never forget how much fun flying is, and that someone pays you to do something you love. Never forget that some jerk in management can take it all away tomorrow.

If there werenít guys like Riverside pushing the envelope and never being satisfied, the day they take it all away would come sooner. Caustic thinkers are a necessary evil in todayís world.

flyboy94
06-28-2019, 03:55 PM
Itís , ď answering ď....
Airplanes....nor airplaneís....
Then .... not than
Geezus ! ... If you canít spell , can you fly ? Can you fill out a log book ? Do you have an education ? We are getting tired of substandard applicants in this highly skilled and technical profession.


I hope you did love flying as much as I do back in the day. I hope you do not fly the line, if you did I would feel bad for every poor soul who has to sit next to you for days at a time. Is that okay spelling for you?

flyboy94
06-28-2019, 03:56 PM
There was probably a time in Riversides career when he was as excited to have a job flying as you are. He has probably been hit so many times with a hammer, since then, that he has forgotten that time.

Two lessons from this. Never forget how much fun flying is, and that someone pays you to do something you love. Never forget that some jerk in management can take it all away tomorrow.

If there werenít guys like Riverside pushing the envelope and never being satisfied, the day they take it all away would come sooner. Caustic thinkers are a necessary evil in todayís world.

Anyways I was hoping someone could tell me when ATI is accepting applications again?

Riverside
06-28-2019, 04:04 PM
There was probably a time in Riversides career when he was as excited to have a job flying as you are. He has probably been hit so many times with a hammer, since then, that he has forgotten that time.

Two lessons from this. Never forget how much fun flying is, and that someone pays you to do something you love. Never forget that some jerk in management can take it all away tomorrow.

If there werenít guys like Riverside pushing the envelope and never being satisfied, the day they take it all away would come sooner. Caustic thinkers are a necessary evil in todayís world.

I dont recall in my flying career, that I've worked for a company that flew during a strike. I know how you feel about making progress in contracts. Especially retirement....

Kingairguy08
06-28-2019, 06:13 PM
Anyways I was hoping someone could tell me when ATI is accepting applications again?I recommend following them on Facebook, They post job openings daily. They have been doing interviews weekly for the last 3 weeks and dont appear to be slowing down soon. They are running a minimum of three more classes for 2019. Each class has been full with 12 new hires.


Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

NeverHome
06-28-2019, 10:09 PM
I dont recall in my flying career, that I've worked for a company that flew during a strike. I know how you feel about making progress in contracts. Especially retirement....

Funny, ATI didnít fly during a strike. They flew while ABX was acting out of bounds of the law. Where was the cool down, release from NMB, and importantly: a notice to ATI of attempted stunt?

Bungalow
06-29-2019, 04:34 AM
Itís , ď answering ď....
Airplanes....nor airplaneís....
Then .... not than
Geezus ! ... If you canít spell , can you fly ? Can you fill out a log book ? Do you have an education ? We are getting tired of substandard applicants in this highly skilled and technical profession.

ďHighly skilled and technical professionĒ
Letís face it. Is not that skilled or particularly technical. Unless pushing a switch and rotating a knob, when told to do so, fits your definition of ďhighly skilledĒ.
It ainít heart surgery man, get over yourself.

Riverside
06-29-2019, 04:49 AM
Funny, ATI didnít fly during a strike. They flew while ABX was acting out of bounds of the law. Where was the cool down, release from NMB, and importantly: a notice to ATI of attempted stunt?

I don't recall any other cargo carriers flying ABX freight during that time frame....

FlyAstarJets
06-29-2019, 05:11 AM
I don't recall any other cargo carriers flying ABX freight during that time frame....

Youíre absolutely correct Riverside. No other cargo carrier flew ABX freight, and that includes ATI.
ATI never moved ABX freight OR worked an ABX route in that time frame. In fact, an ATI flight was asked to divert to ATL to ďrescue some freightĒ. The ATI crew REFUSED TO DO SO knowing that freight was to be going on an ABX airplane.

nitefr8dog
06-29-2019, 06:27 PM
Funny, ATI didnít fly during a strike. They flew while ABX was acting out of bounds of the law. Where was the cool down, release from NMB, and importantly: a notice to ATI of attempted stunt?
What else is funny...the court ordered ATSG to immediately stop denying 2 of the 3 items the strike was about and to reach an agreement on the 3rd item. That resulted in hugh payouts in the form of bonus cks to the majority of the pilot group to settle the 3rd item. So all three items that were a violation of status quo were resolved. Had the ABX pilots not taken the action they did they most likely would have been quite a bit more serious contract violations...thankfully the ABX crews had balls enough to do something about it. We all know ATI would sit by and get walked all over as your assets are transferred. Joe knows that too.There was more to the status quo violations than the 3 items but I do not think you could understand as you do not have scope that is worth anything because no one at ATI has any hair on there a$$.

Jurassic Jet
06-29-2019, 10:05 PM
What else is funny...the court ordered ATSG to immediately stop denying 2 of the 3 items the strike was about and to reach an agreement on the 3rd item. That resulted in hugh payouts in the form of bonus cks to the majority of the pilot group to settle the 3rd item. So all three items that were a violation of status quo were resolved. Had the ABX pilots not taken the action they did they most likely would have been quite a bit more serious contract violations...thankfully the ABX crews had balls enough to do something about it. We all know ATI would sit by and get walked all over as your assets are transferred. Joe knows that too.There was more to the status quo violations than the 3 items but I do not think you could understand as you do not have scope that is worth anything because no one at ATI has any hair on there a$$.

Those darn pesky facts keep getting in the way of those SkyGod Prime Air Pilots.

zerozero
06-30-2019, 08:13 AM
Funny, ATI didnít fly during a strike. They flew while ABX was acting out of bounds of the law. Where was the cool down, release from NMB, and importantly: a notice to ATI of attempted stunt?

Incorrect.

A judge ruled in favor of the union that the company had committed a violation of the status quo.

Being released by the NMB is not the only path to a legal strike.

The judge allowed the strike to continue for 2.5 days before ordering crews back to work.

Totally legal and by the book.

iPilot
06-30-2019, 08:47 AM
The ABX strike was total success I don't know why people think it wasn't. The judge ended the strike but put extremely strict terms on negotiations for a settlement between the union and ATSG. Making an airline sit around for weeks while terms are hashed out is unreasonable and would simply risk an airline going out of business before anyone even has time to deal with the problem.

Status quo strikes is right there in the rule book of the RLA. The fact that more airline unions don't take advantage of it is more a union issue than a law issue.

dogo
06-30-2019, 09:00 AM
Additionally the strike proved the point of the whipsaw. Joe Hete has hated unions and organized labor since his early days at Airborne Express. (Reference his scum sucking scorpions to crew members in the mid 90ís). Soaper is worse....hopefully he will get his job action as well.

wjcandee
07-02-2019, 02:08 AM
You know, I keep reading all these interpretations of the ruling. But I have actually read all the rulings. The most-salient synopsis is the Court's own synopsis of its prior rulings when the Union challenged the TRO.

You can read it too. It is here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096/pdf/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFucqV7pXjAhVPHc0KHYC2CPEQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1THR-f0UhiBNcuQcjcHUle

It says pretty unequivocally that the three issues were all "minor disputes" in the rubric of the RLA that needed to be resolved by arbitration. It also says that there is no status quo violation by the Company on any of those three issues. As to the legality of the strike, in an earlier order, the Court stated that it had the power to enjoin illegal strikes, and then issued the injunction. For those who say the court never said the strike was illegal, that's the deduction that a higher court would make in evaluating the Court's reasoning. In other words, the court did in fact determine this strike to be illegal, which is why it enjoined it.

I read so much about that strike, I think putting up a viewpoint based on the actual Court rulings might be helpful for folks.

wjcandee
07-02-2019, 07:12 AM
You can read it too. It is here:


Cleaner link: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096/pdf/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096-1.pdf

woog315
07-02-2019, 12:39 PM
Yup, the strike was an airline destroying screwup by the union and the leadership should have had the graciousness to step down a long time ago so there could be some chance of healing and moving forward. Instead, they've done nothing but dig the hole deeper since. If management had made a misstep that had the kind of negative fallout the strike had, union leadership would be calling for their heads to roll.

People trying to argue that the strike wasn't ruled illegal probably simply can't interpret a court document (or haven't bothered to read it) or just prefer to stick their head in the sand rather than face reality. The latter is a fairly common problem at ol' ABX.

nitefr8dog
07-02-2019, 01:28 PM
You know, I keep reading all these interpretations of the ruling. But I have actually read all the rulings. The most-salient synopsis is the Court's own synopsis of its prior rulings when the Union challenged the TRO.

You can read it too. It is here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096/pdf/USCOURTS-ohsd-1_16-cv-01096-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFucqV7pXjAhVPHc0KHYC2CPEQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1THR-f0UhiBNcuQcjcHUle

It says pretty unequivocally that the three issues were all "minor disputes" in the rubric of the RLA that needed to be resolved by arbitration. It also says that there is no status quo violation by the Company on any of those three issues. As to the legality of the strike, in an earlier order, the Court stated that it had the power to enjoin illegal strikes, and then issued the injunction. For those who say the court never said the strike was illegal, that's the deduction that a higher court would make in evaluating the Court's reasoning. In other words, the court did in fact determine this strike to be illegal, which is why it enjoined it. Also the courts opinion of major or minor with Republicans in office that are certainly not pro union means jack s#!t. We were and still are in sec 6 negotiations...you have to have [email protected]!!s enough to protect what's your.

I read so much about that strike, I think putting up a viewpoint based on the actual Court rulings might be helpful for folks.
I for one have never said illegal or not illegal. Necessary vs not necessary?....yes it was. Again there was quite a bit more to to the strike than the 3 items and management drawing a line in the sand and waiting to see if we would cross it. And it cost them hundreds of thousands to settle the items which the court ordered. I dare say if the threat of moving ABX aircraft to sister companies was in front of us again it would happen again. We were in section 6 negotiations and the pilot group not the court has the right to determine a status quo violation and have [email protected]!!s enough to do something about it. So in the end your opinion of what happened and your interpretation of the events really only matters to you....and a few other idiots that will probably chime in...

Bons
07-05-2019, 01:51 PM
For the fo's getting interviews and job offers at ATI, what are your ballpark flight times? I'm just waiting to throw in an app once the hiring window opens again and I've got 2000tt mostly turboprop, an atp, and some international time hoping to be competitive enough for an interview invite...

Boris Badenov
07-05-2019, 02:03 PM
the pilot group not the court has the right to determine a status quo violation

Hahahahahaa. Yeah, tell that to the court. Or the sheriff who the court will call to come lock up your union hall. Or the bank which the court will call to empty your union account.

nitefr8dog
07-06-2019, 03:31 AM
Hahahahahaa. Yeah, tell that to the court. Or the sheriff who the court will call to come lock up your union hall. Or the bank which the court will call to empty your union account.
Hahahahahaa. Yeah we did......the Judge ordered the company to settle all three items and then the company paid out hugh amounts of cash to the pilot group as part of that settlement. So neither of your two scenarios happened. Try again. You might have to grow a pair first. Hahahahahahahaa.

wjcandee
07-06-2019, 08:51 AM
Hahahahahaa. Yeah we did......the Judge ordered the company to settle all three items.

Um...no he didn't. He found that the company had already reached agreement as to how to handle those issues. The strike was a strategic gambit by the Union with a number of motivating factors. But it's not like the entire membership was up in arms over when you got to take your Baby Days. The alleged status quo violations were a basis to go forward on a strike that Union leadership very much wanted to have, not a reaction to those "minor issues" under the RLA, which were legally required to be worked out through negotiation and did not form a basis for a legal strike. What's important is that ABX crew members do believe that the strike was a good thing to do and, legal or not, they seem to be happy that they did it. And to a certain extent, that's all that matters.

b707guy
07-06-2019, 09:12 AM
Hahahahahaa. Yeah we did......the Judge ordered the company to settle all three items and then the company paid out hugh amounts of cash to the pilot group as part of that settlement. So neither of your two scenarios happened. Try again. You might have to grow a pair first. Hahahahahahahaa.

He also ordered you all back to work, as "it simply reaffirms that the pilots cannot strike with respect to the three minor disputes discussed herein".

goinaround
07-06-2019, 10:14 AM
I wish there were a way to block discussions of the ABX strike that happened 3 years ago. It's getting reeeeeally tired at this point.......

nitefr8dog
07-06-2019, 10:16 AM
Um...no he didn't. He found that the company had already reached agreement as to how to handle those issues. The strike was a strategic gambit by the Union with a number of motivating factors. But it's not like the entire membership was up in arms over when you got to take your Baby Days. The alleged status quo violations were a basis to go forward on a strike that Union leadership very much wanted to have, not a reaction to those "minor issues" under the RLA, which were legally required to be worked out through negotiation and did not form a basis for a legal strike. What's important is that ABX crew members do believe that the strike was a good thing to do and, legal or not, they seem to be happy that they did it. And to a certain extent, that's all that matters.
Um...no he didn't. He found the company was not following the contract and the agreements to resolve them were also not in agreement with the contract and told the company to cease. Then the company stopped and paid cash to settle them. You guys are complete idiots if you thing the 3 scheduling items were the reason for the strike. But because you have no idea what was going on you keep whining on and on. ABX HAS SCOPE...something ATI will never understand. If you guys had any hair on your a$$ and actually stood up for something you would see Joe dismantle you overnight while you stand by and say...huh

nitefr8dog
07-06-2019, 10:17 AM
I wish there were a way to block discussions of the ABX strike that happened 3 years ago. It's getting reeeeeally tired at this point.......
Stop looking at the posts...watch golf or tennis. Wimbledon is on right now.

nitefr8dog
07-06-2019, 10:19 AM
He also ordered you all back to work, as "it simply reaffirms that the pilots cannot strike with respect to the three minor disputes discussed herein".
They can and we did.....we also did not allow any aircraft on our certificate to go to ATI as Joe demanded. If you have no idea about the issues surrounding the strike.. why comment?

wjcandee
07-06-2019, 10:49 AM
You guys are complete idiots if you thing the 3 scheduling items were the reason for the strike.

You're making my point. For all the high-virtue arguments made in court, the actual motivation for the strike was something else entirely. And as I said, if ABX pilots are happy with the result and think it was an effective strategy, then that's all that matters.

wjcandee
07-06-2019, 10:55 AM
I wish there were a way to block discussions of the ABX strike that happened 3 years ago. It's getting reeeeeally tired at this point.......

Yeah, but as long as the ABX guys continue to call ATI guys the S-word for their response to the strike, where the striking union intentionally issued no definition of "struck work", and ATI carried no ABX freight (and in fact refused to do so when asked), and the strike was obviously-illegal, I think it's fair to ventilate the actual facts occasionally in response to that. Indeed, it has always seemed that the strike was rolled out in a way that was designed to cause, as one result, exactly this.

nitefr8dog
07-06-2019, 11:05 AM
Yeah, but as long as the ABX guys continue to call ATI guys the S-word for their response to the strike, where the striking union intentionally issued no definition of "struck work", and ATI carried no ABX freight (and in fact refused to do so when asked), and the strike was obviously-illegal, I think it's fair to ventilate the actual facts occasionally in response to that. Indeed, it has always seemed that the strike was rolled out in a way that was designed to cause, as one result, exactly this.
ATI was flying that day. Atlas, Southern, Kalita were not. Sugarcoat it all you want but there it is.To get to work they had to cross a strike line, there is a name for that....just saying.
And let's stop kidding our selves....the whole ATI pilot group except the few ATI pilots who recognized the strike and stood with us would have done triple overtime flying around the clock for months if JV and JH promised them all the flying from every carrier on the ramp while ABX was on strike.

woog315
07-06-2019, 04:53 PM
ATI was flying that day. Atlas, Southern, Kalita were not. Sugarcoat it all you want but there it is.To get to work they had to cross a strike line, there is a name for that....just saying.
And let's stop kidding our selves....the whole ATI pilot group except the few ATI pilots who recognized the strike and stood with us would have done triple overtime flying around the clock for months if JV and JH promised them all the flying from every carrier on the ramp while ABX was on strike.

Get over it dude. We lost. The ATI situation is certainly more complex than you want to admit. Your pride and stubbornness has a dollar value of $0 and a huge negative productivity value. In fact, you're just blaming the failures of the ABX group to secure their own future on everyone else. Maybe get in there and compete, because GUESS WHAT? We're not actually better than any other ACMI pilot group- we're all stuck competing with each other and ABX refuses to compete. The hard headedness and arrogance of the ABX union, and the pilot group that tends to fall in line rather than speak out, has almost completely destroyed the place. You guys seem content sitting in the right seat for 20 years because you're gonna 'raise the bar' or whatever the group here is trying to accomplish. Put me firmly in the "Sick of it" column. Stop ****ting on other pilot groups and get your own house in order.

goinaround
07-06-2019, 05:00 PM
Get over it dude. We lost. The ATI situation is certainly more complex than you want to admit. Your pride and stubbornness has a dollar value of $0 and a huge negative productivity value. In fact, you're just blaming the failures of the ABX group to secure their own future on everyone else. Maybe get in there and compete, because GUESS WHAT? We're not actually better than any other ACMI pilot group- we're all stuck competing with each other and ABX refuses to compete. The hard headedness and arrogance of the ABX union, and the pilot group that tends to fall in line rather than speak out, has almost completely destroyed the place. You guys seem content sitting in the right seat for 20 years because you're gonna 'raise the bar' or whatever the group here is trying to accomplish. Put me firmly in the "Sick of it" column. Stop ****ting on other pilot groups and get your own house in order.

Perfect

.....

Bungalow
07-06-2019, 05:42 PM
Get over it dude. We lost. The ATI situation is certainly more complex than you want to admit. Your pride and stubbornness has a dollar value of $0 and a huge negative productivity value. In fact, you're just blaming the failures of the ABX group to secure their own future on everyone else. Maybe get in there and compete, because GUESS WHAT? We're not actually better than any other ACMI pilot group- we're all stuck competing with each other and ABX refuses to compete. The hard headedness and arrogance of the ABX union, and the pilot group that tends to fall in line rather than speak out, has almost completely destroyed the place. You guys seem content sitting in the right seat for 20 years because you're gonna 'raise the bar' or whatever the group here is trying to accomplish. Put me firmly in the "Sick of it" column. Stop ****ting on other pilot groups and get your own house in order.

Hey Man
How dare you come over here speaking eloquently and making good common sense. Donít you know that is strictly forbidden in ABX related discussions ?
The nerve.

mpflyboy1
07-06-2019, 05:44 PM
Yeah, but as long as the ABX guys continue to call ATI guys the S-word for their response to the strike, where the striking union intentionally issued no definition of "struck work", and ATI carried no ABX freight (and in fact refused to do so when asked), and the strike was obviously-illegal, I think it's fair to ventilate the actual facts occasionally in response to that. Indeed, it has always seemed that the strike was rolled out in a way that was designed to cause, as one result, exactly this.

You again slipped the word ďillegalĒ again. The common sense proof that it wasnít illegal without getting into the legal stuff that nobody understands is this: if it really was illegal donít you think ABX management would have happily sued the union and won a settlement against the pilot group? The fact they didnít should say a lot.

I too get tired of this topic and wish we could move on and find a way to work together.

l8fr82hub
07-06-2019, 06:16 PM
the few ATI pilots who recognized the strike and stood with us would have done triple overtime flying around the clock for months if JV and JH promised them all the flying from every carrier on the ramp while ABX was on strike.
Triple overtime flying around the clock for months (or years) like the senior ABX pilots did when the junior pilots got furloughed?

woog315
07-06-2019, 06:19 PM
You again slipped the word “illegal” again. The common sense proof that it wasn’t illegal without getting into the legal stuff that nobody understands is this: if it really was illegal don’t you think ABX management would have happily sued the union and won a settlement against the pilot group? The fact they didn’t should say a lot.

I too get tired of this topic and wish we could move on and find a way to work together.

I am seriously hesitant to bog down in this discussion, but this line of thinking really can't just be left hanging out there to enter all the impressionable minds of pilots (i kid, i kid). A status quo strike, absent a major contractual dispute, is illegal under the RLA. The court looked at our situation, said there was no major dispute, and told us to get back to work. The strike was enjoined, it really can't be more clear. The union did not follow the procedures, which are undoubtedly stacked in the company's favor but that doesn't really matter because the law is the law. This is the clearest explanation I have found that doesn't require you to be a lawyer - https://www.goodwinlaw.com/-/media/files/publications/attorney-articles/2007/the_legality_of_strikes_under_the_railway_labor_ac t_seeking_a_bright_line_rule.pdf

Why didn't the company come after us? Well that's real simple, actually. They are trying to secure as much business as they can, and a company that is dragging its labor through the courts does not look like a stable business. So when they sit down and negotiate with Amazon or DHL, and they ask "so hows labor relations?' its pretty hard to say "good!" when you are dragging your pilot group through court. What would taking us to court accomplish?

They are *trying* to make ATSG succeed, and they are succeeding without the help of ABX currently. ABX currently negotiates using a "We win it all, or no one wins anything" mentality, which is the equivalent of a Darwin award for organized labor (a choice quote around here is 'burn it all down!'. Yes, maybe light my house on fire too, that'll show em). We're like the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who, after having all his limbs chopped off, keeps hurling insults and making threats. We're basically just being laughed at by now. They'll keep using us to plug holes in their schedules and giving all the real growth to the guys interested in playing ball. Good for those guys.

b707guy
07-06-2019, 08:45 PM
Um...no he didn't. He found the company was not following the contract and the agreements to resolve them were also not in agreement with the contract and told the company to cease. Then the company stopped and paid cash to settle them. You guys are complete idiots if you thing the 3 scheduling items were the reason for the strike. But because you have no idea what was going on you keep whining on and on. ABX HAS SCOPE...something ATI will never understand. If you guys had any hair on your a$$ and actually stood up for something you would see Joe dismantle you overnight while you stand by and say...huh

That's funny, because here's what you said in post 126 of the "Life From a Relatively New Hire at ATI" thread: "The pilots were able to stop all items in violation of the contract which caused the strike and in the end were paid hugh settlements. Which was the sole purpose of the strike....that and to show JH we would not stand by while he tried to move aircraft on ABX certificate to ATI ( which he wanted) without repercussions."

So, which is it?

BTW, what's a "hugh" settlement. Hugh Laurie? Hugh Hefner? Were they involved in the payout? ;) They do have a lot of money!

As for your iron-clad scope, maybe you need to take a deeper look at what that's really doing to your Company at this point.

You were told you "...cannot strike with respect to the three minor disputes..." and went back to work when ordered to do so. Kind of flies in the face of "They can and we did...". Sounds more like "We thought we could and got called on it".

You question my reasons for commenting on issues of which "I have no idea"? That's really funny! Pot, meet kettle! :rolleyes:

nitefr8dog
07-07-2019, 04:02 AM
That's funny, because here's what you said in post 126 of the "Life From a Relatively New Hire at ATI" thread: "The pilots were able to stop all items in violation of the contract which caused the strike and in the end were paid hugh settlements. Which was the sole purpose of the strike....that and to show JH we would not stand by while he tried to move aircraft on ABX certificate to ATI ( which he wanted) without repercussions."

So, which is it?

BTW, what's a "hugh" settlement. Hugh Laurie? Hugh Hefner? Were they involved in the payout? ;) They do have a lot of money!

As for your iron-clad scope, maybe you need to take a deeper look at what that's really doing to your Company at this point.

You were told you "...cannot "continue to" strike with respect to the three minor disputes..." and went back to work when ordered to do so. Kind of flies in the face of "They can and we did...". Sounds more like "We thought we could and got called on it".

You question my reasons for commenting on issues of which "I have no idea"? That's really funny! Pot, meet kettle! :rolleyes:
Fixed it for ya. How about.... did....and would again if the contract is violated while in sec 6 (move aircraft) better? And you still do not have a clue. As far a scope, that is the point you really don't understand. Hete says take a low ball contract or we take your aircraft....we strike over contract violations and to keep the aircraft and they downsize the airline. The outcome is the same. We would be right where we are now either way. Really nothing to lose. Is the whole whipsaw idea that hard to understand? It's not that "huge".

nitefr8dog
07-07-2019, 04:32 AM
I am seriously hesitant to bog down in this discussion, but this line of thinking really can't just be left hanging out there to enter all the impressionable minds of pilots (i kid, i kid). A status quo strike, absent a major contractual dispute, is illegal under the RLA. The court looked at our situation, said there was no major dispute, and told us to get back to work. The strike was enjoined, it really can't be more clear. The union did not follow the procedures, which are undoubtedly stacked in the company's favor but that doesn't really matter because the law is the law. This is the clearest explanation I have found that doesn't require you to be a lawyer - https://www.goodwinlaw.com/-/media/files/publications/attorney-articles/2007/the_legality_of_strikes_under_the_railway_labor_ac t_seeking_a_bright_line_rule.pdf

Why didn't the company come after us? Well that's real simple, actually. They are trying to secure as much business as they can, and a company that is dragging its labor through the courts does not look like a stable business. So when they sit down and negotiate with Amazon or DHL, and they ask "so hows labor relations?' its pretty hard to say "good!" when you are dragging your pilot group through court. What would taking us to court accomplish?

They are *trying* to make ATSG succeed, and they are succeeding without the help of ABX currently. ABX currently negotiates using a "We win it all, or no one wins anything" mentality, which is the equivalent of a Darwin award for organized labor (a choice quote around here is 'burn it all down!'. Yes, maybe light my house on fire too, that'll show em). We're like the knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail who, after having all his limbs chopped off, keeps hurling insults and making threats. We're basically just being laughed at by now. They'll keep using us to plug holes in their schedules and giving all the real growth to the guys interested in playing ball. Good for those guys.
So when the negotiating committee shows up with a proposal...any proposal, and company shows up with nothing....is that the union saying " we win it all, or no one wins anything "? Like so many others you need to get involved instead of just sitting back with all the answers.

b707guy
07-07-2019, 10:26 AM
Fixed it for ya. How about.... did....and would again if the contract is violated while in sec 6 (move aircraft) better? And you still do not have a clue. As far a scope, that is the point you really don't understand. Hete says take a low ball contract or we take your aircraft....we strike over contract violations and to keep the aircraft and they downsize the airline. The outcome is the same. We would be right where we are now either way. Really nothing to lose. Is the whole whipsaw idea that hard to understand? It's not that "huge".

Editing a direct quote to support your agenda doesn't "fix" it for anyone but you.

As for "...or we take your aircraft...", maybe when, despite your overly-filled bag of clues, you realize that none of us can call any of this "ours", you'll figure out how this all really works. In the meantime, enjoy your status quo.

NeverHome
07-07-2019, 10:56 AM
Fixed it for ya. How about.... did....and would again if the contract is violated while in sec 6 (move aircraft) better? And you still do not have a clue. As far a scope, that is the point you really don't understand. Hete says take a low ball contract or we take your aircraft....we strike over contract violations and to keep the aircraft and they downsize the airline. The outcome is the same. We would be right where we are now either way. Really nothing to lose. Is the whole whipsaw idea that hard to understand? It's not that "huge".

If the outcome was the same, why hurl crap at at ATI? By your own words this was gonna happen anyway. That has nothing to do with ATI pilot group. In fact the whole strike and fallout has nothing to do with ATIs pilot group. I believe that certainly ABX group was and is getting screwed. But not by ATI.

nitefr8dog
07-07-2019, 12:35 PM
If the outcome was the same, why hurl crap at at ATI? By your own words this was gonna happen anyway. That has nothing to do with ATI pilot group. In fact the whole strike and fallout has nothing to do with ATIs pilot group. I believe that certainly ABX group was and is getting screwed. But not by ATI.
Going to happen anyway after ATI accepted a contract that only gave pay raises. Less matching funds, lower disability pay, no reassignment/change of designation pay etc. The pay raise looked good and they bought it because they were willing to work for Walmart cart boy pay for years...something ABX crews would not do 20 yrs ago or now. Yet now that is the bar that is put before us. Does anyone understand whipsawing? ATSG now owns 3 airlines. We do not yet have a new contract...to get aircraft from the other carriers we would have to agree to a matching or less contract like ATI did...to get promised aircraft at the cost of the other carriers...like ATI did..
understand? It's not rocket science.

nitefr8dog
07-07-2019, 12:40 PM
Editing a direct quote to support your agenda doesn't "fix" it for anyone but you.

As for "...or we take your aircraft...", maybe when, despite your overly-filled bag of clues, you realize that none of us can call any of this "ours", you'll figure out how this all really works. In the meantime, enjoy your status quo.
Yes...that's why when ATSG wants an aircraft from ABX the Union says put a request in writing before the union says no. It's how "our" scope works. How does "yours" (as in the airline you work for) work. And what else can you tell me about the ABX contract? Please enlighten me. Are "your" (again as in the airline you work for) aircraft directly tied to "your" (again as in the airline you work for) retirement? Please educate us in the details.

NeverHome
07-07-2019, 01:36 PM
Going to happen anyway after ATI accepted a contract that only gave pay raises. Less matching funds, lower disability pay, no reassignment/change of designation pay etc. The pay raise looked good and they bought it because they were willing to work for Walmart cart boy pay for years...something ABX crews would not do 20 yrs ago or now. Yet now that is the bar that is put before us. Does anyone understand whipsawing? ATSG now owns 3 airlines. We do not yet have a new contract...to get aircraft from the other carriers we would have to agree to a matching or less contract like ATI did...to get promised aircraft at the cost of the other carriers...like ATI did..
understand? It's not rocket science.

Yes I do understand whipsaw. At the same time itís almost comical that you seem to think the ABX savior or stumbling block is ATI. If the ATI pilot group rejected the contract, did you really expect your management to come to your group on their knees? Or is it more reasonable that the BS would have continued in another direction. One way or another ABX pilot group was/ is gonna get screwed correct?

ATIs group took the contract they felt best for their situation. So far that decision seems to be working towards their benefit. Did you really expect ATI to vote on their contract with ABX in the center of their thoughts?

nitefr8dog
07-07-2019, 02:32 PM
Yes I do understand whipsaw. At the same time itís almost comical that you seem to think the ABX savior or stumbling block is ATI. If the ATI pilot group rejected the contract, did you really expect your management to come to your group on their knees? Or is it more reasonable that the BS would have continued in another direction. One way or another ABX pilot group was/ is gonna get screwed correct?

ATIs group took the contract they felt best for their situation. So far that decision seems to be working towards their benefit. Did you really expect ATI to vote on their contract with ABX in the center of their thoughts?
Wow...working together to raise the bar would have been way more beneficial for ATI and ABX. Unbelievable. I will make more and have more days at home working under a concessionary contract....you could gotten a lot more. Good luck on improvements going forward. You do not know Joe. This is like talking to kindergartners.

woog315
07-07-2019, 05:57 PM
Wow...working together to raise the bar would have been way more beneficial for ATI and ABX. Unbelievable. I will make more and have more days at home working under a concessionary contract....you could gotten a lot more. Good luck on improvements going forward. You do not know Joe. This is like talking to kindergartners.

ATI could (and should) have done better, but a guy with the same longevity at ATI is now making significantly more than you... sorry to break it to you. Yes, that includes retirement (not interested in squabbling over DC vs match... who cares). And for newer hires, its not even close- ATI wins. All they got was the offer ATSG gave to our union and our union wouldn't even show us. ATI was given a chance to significantly improve their pay and conditions and they took it, I believe that is how it is supposed to work in America. Just because we were too greedy to see the writing on the wall and work out a deal doesn't mean ATI is a bunch of losers.

As to more days at home- maybe you live in CVG and good for you if you do, but there is not really a significant difference in days worked between the 2 companies. ATI undoubtedly works less if you commute at ABX. I'm not even going to get into hotels/crashpads and lack of per diem in CVG, as that puts ABX even further behind. You're grasping at straws trying to justify the utter failure of ABX. Sorry it hasn't worked out for us, but your attitude is a huge part of the problem.

nitefr8dog
07-08-2019, 09:25 AM
ATI could (and should) have done better, but a guy with the same longevity at ATI is now making significantly more than you... sorry to break it to you. Yes, that includes retirement (not interested in squabbling over DC vs match... who cares). And for newer hires, its not even close- ATI wins. All they got was the offer ATSG gave to our union and our union wouldn't even show us. ATI was given a chance to significantly improve their pay and conditions and they took it, I believe that is how it is supposed to work in America. Just because we were too greedy to see the writing on the wall and work out a deal doesn't mean ATI is a bunch of losers.

As to more days at home- maybe you live in CVG and good for you if you do, but there is not really a significant difference in days worked between the 2 companies. ATI undoubtedly works less if you commute at ABX. I'm not even going to get into hotels/crashpads and lack of per diem in CVG, as that puts ABX even further behind. You're grasping at straws trying to justify the utter failure of ABX. Sorry it hasn't worked out for us, but your attitude is a huge part of the problem.
I am not talking base pay...its the screwup pay which without even trying is 5k a month on average. Or 140k a yr as in some yrs....the additional flying has already started it. Then take the d6 days and you have a month off. And the cycle repeats. We can't hire to cover the attrition yet we have increased AZ, covering 2 cities extra for DHL..add Military and the NAC we are getting all before the 4th qtr starts. It's easy to make double base and still be off. Is it really that difficult to understand? Also nobody said ATI's contract on paper was not a higher dollar amount...I said you make more at ABX. Also yes the DC is not a huge amount thank you for pointing all this out Captain Obvious. But add 19.5 to 300 or 400k it all adds up. Again I am not grandstanding ABX, I said if the idiots at ATI would have realized we all work for the same company they could have gotten alot more and really set the bar high not just gotten a newer used car.

Bungalow
07-08-2019, 10:06 AM
I am not talking base pay...its the screwup pay which without even trying is 5k a month on average. Or 140k a yr as in some yrs....the additional flying has already started it. Then take the d6 days and you have a month off. And the cycle repeats. We can't hire to cover the attrition yet we have increased AZ, covering 2 cities extra for DHL..add Military and the NAC we are getting all before the 4th qtr starts. It's easy to make double base and still be off. Is it really that difficult to understand? Also nobody said ATI's contract on paper was not a higher dollar amount...I said you make more at ABX. Also yes the DC is not a huge amount thank you for pointing all this out Captain Obvious. But add 19.5 to 300 or 400k it all adds up. Again I am not grandstanding ABX, I said if the idiots at ATI would have realized we all work for the same company they could have gotten alot more and really set the bar high not just gotten a newer used car.

Maybe you need to take time away from ďraising the barĒ. No one cares about your bar, everyone is moving on with their contracts and their careers, yes even ATI.
Maybe is time for reality check.
There is a fine line between hero and buffoon.

dynap09
07-08-2019, 11:46 AM
willing to work for Walmart cart boy pay for years...

Walmart Cart Attendant & Janitorial Associate pay is something like $23K/year. I know it's hard to believe, but ATI is doing a lot better than that.

Some of the extra ABX pay is built on work rule inefficiency and some work rule gimmicks. Not saying that isn't gravy for pilot group -> but be interesting if long term company ends up more interested in paying folks willing to actually go fly and make the company money. New plane placements should help tell the tale.

Jurassic Jet
07-08-2019, 12:02 PM
but be interesting if long term company ends up more interested in paying folks willing to sell their soul to the devil and send their fellow pilots and the industry down the river on promises of getting all the new planes.


Fixed it mo betta.

MentalMidget
07-08-2019, 12:22 PM
Thank you Jurassic Jet

Asci
07-08-2019, 03:58 PM
Fixed it mo betta.



Thatís rich coming from a pilot group that picked up every ounce of overtime when there brothers and sisters were on the street after furlough.

And then when they fell off the seniority list went on strike because they no longer wanted to fly over their vacations and pick up overtime...

But call ATI scabs for flying ATI airplanes on ATI routes when a strike was organized overnight with no MEC coordination.

Give me (and everyone else reading a hiring thread not about ABX) a break


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OffAtTango
07-08-2019, 04:59 PM
For the fo's getting interviews and job offers at ATI, what are your ballpark flight times? I'm just waiting to throw in an app once the hiring window opens again and I've got 2000tt mostly turboprop, an atp, and some international time hoping to be competitive enough for an interview invite...

Applied with 1550TT just for the fun of it one day on an overnight. Got a phone call and an email about a month later regarding picking a date to interview.

Av8r75
07-09-2019, 05:18 AM
They are hiring from all levels of experience. 1500TT are the listed mins. If you have a great attitude and good personality, they want to hire you. Just put in an app...it also helps to have an internal rec, so get to know some guys who are already here. They take personal recs very seriously.

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Cujo665
07-09-2019, 05:23 AM
Walmart Cart Attendant & Janitorial Associate pay is something like $23K/year. I know it's hard to believe, but ATI is doing a lot better than that.

Some of the extra ABX pay is built on work rule inefficiency and some work rule gimmicks. Not saying that isn't gravy for pilot group -> but be interesting if long term company ends up more interested in paying folks willing to actually go fly and make the company money. New plane placements should help tell the tale.

Well, you need to do your TAFB times the Walmart hourly rate. The TAFB is the actual time spent away from family while at work. Flying, sitting or at the hotel, you're still away at work. Take that away at work time and multiply it by the Walmart job of choice.
Want a real comparison. Get a firefighting job and do the same TAFB. They do get paid while sleeping/resting.

How's that pay difference looking now?

NeverHome
07-09-2019, 07:28 AM
Well, you need to do your TAFB times the Walmart hourly rate. The TAFB is the actual time spent away from family while at work. Flying, sitting or at the hotel, you're still away at work. Take that away at work time and multiply it by the Walmart job of choice.
Want a real comparison. Get a firefighting job and do the same TAFB. They do get paid while sleeping/resting.

How's that pay difference looking now?

Actually still not bad. I havenít met a Walmart employee that works 24 hours a day. So total time away from base is pointless. Many trips provide a lot of time off. So even calculating all time away from base, we look closer and find that is the equivalent of getting paid for not working. Again that is a useless comparison. Especially since we donít have bases.

Oh yes and letís factor in upgrades. How long is it at ABX? ATIs time is falling. So a faster upgrade is more money in the pocket.

So more money in an ATI pilots pocket. Thatís hurting all the pilots in this industry how? Oh and letís not forget about QOL. Positive space, good work environment (good people on the line), strong potential for a fast upgrade (more money), and great experience if a pilot wants to go brown or purple.

Remind me again why the ATI contract is poor? Because when I dig into the numbers, I see a lot of positive things.

dogo
07-09-2019, 07:47 AM
Just wondering how many ATI pilots make it to purple or brown? I know just one and he was a legacy. All ACMI ops are fishing in the same experience pond. Good luck.

woog315
07-09-2019, 11:46 AM
Well, you need to do your TAFB times the Walmart hourly rate. The TAFB is the actual time spent away from family while at work. Flying, sitting or at the hotel, you're still away at work. Take that away at work time and multiply it by the Walmart job of choice.
Want a real comparison. Get a firefighting job and do the same TAFB. They do get paid while sleeping/resting.

How's that pay difference looking now?

Do you really believe your argument makes any sense at all, or are you just being obstinate? The only professions that make more on average than pilots at our level are doctors and lawyers. The most important income driver for pilots at an airline with a reasonable contract (both abx and ati currently have reasonable contracts) is growth. ATI seems to get that, while ABX clearly doesn’t.

If you think you deserve to have a line on your paycheck for when you’re getting drunk at the hotel bar and crying about how poorly management treats you, maybe you should consider a job that doesn’t require travel. It’s part of the territory.

FlyAstarJets
07-09-2019, 03:21 PM
Just wondering how many ATI pilots make it to purple or brown? I know just one and he was a legacy. All ACMI ops are fishing in the same experience pond. Good luck.
Three since the hiring binge started three years ago.

Considering in that time frame, our attrition is eight or nine I believe. That includes the three to Fedup, some failures to progress and others to the pax world. In that number I did not include retired peeps. Over all, I think weíre doing OK.

Iíll see if I can get a more solid number.

Av8r75
07-10-2019, 02:26 AM
What is wrong with people?? I would hope there is not a single pilot who comes into this career thinking they will be home every night! That being said, to compare this job to working at Walmart is just plain silly. It has always amazed me the number of pilots who complain about being away from home or think they should be compensated for their off duty time on the road. Seriously....and who doesn't know what the compensation details are before taking any position with any airline? Human beings are never content with what we have are we?

If you do a real comparison about what matters (time on duty) pilots work a lot less than the typical blue collar worker bee, and for a lot more money!

In many cases, we work about half the hours of many 9 to 5ers and make 2 to 3 times more. For many of us we make 4 to 5 times what someone at Walmart makes and work half the hours.

Come on guys...really?! This thread was supposed to be about hiring at ATI and instead has become a place for people from a competing airline to complain about their career choices. I have worked both sides (pilot side and 9 to 5) and I know how good I have it. Wouldn't trade it for a job at Walmart!!

You know the "Living the Dream" videos on YouTube are so true....job is different, but the people are the same. I am sure people who work for Walmart complain about their employer as well and I am positive they would have a much different perspective of our lot in life no matter how much time we spend away from home. Matter of fact, I am willing to bet there are employees at Walmart that absolutely love their job and I say good for them! They found a role that suits them and love what they do.

Find something you love and you will never work a day kn your life. Life is not about what's fair, because life just isn't fair...only foolish politicians think they can make it fair for all (more than likely they promise to make things fair for votes). It's all about perspective folks. Sorry for the rant.

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point432
07-10-2019, 06:01 AM
Actually still not bad. I havenít met a Walmart employee that works 24 hours a day. So total time away from base is pointless. Many trips provide a lot of time off. So even calculating all time away from base, we look closer and find that is the equivalent of getting paid for not working. Again that is a useless comparison. Especially since we donít have bases.


For some though, TAFB/Time away from home is important.

My time away from home is even more time lost since I have to play catch up when I get home. Not including my commute, 17x24=408 hours of work a month. As for sleeping and getting paid...Iím not with my family. Theyíre not coming with me and this is not a vacation. Now I can get out and do stuff on a 24+ hour layover (better with 36 or 48 hrs), but itís rare.

The moment I step foot outside the door of the house to go to work, Iím at work. We should be working 15 instead of 17. While I love flying, I do other things too in my spare time.

When an ABX guy says you work more days that us, you probably are. You guys along with us should be working to reduce the overall days away from home. I think we all should be getting higher DC and medical help if problems should arise. If ABX didnít have flex days and never had to JRM, this place would be way better.



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FlyAstarJets
07-10-2019, 12:00 PM
The ATI First Officer application window will open up next week on 7/16/19 and will remain open through 7/23/19.

maxjet
07-11-2019, 06:58 AM
Going to happen anyway after ATI accepted a contract that only gave pay raises. Less matching funds, lower disability pay, no reassignment/change of designation pay etc. The pay raise looked good and they bought it because they were willing to work for Walmart cart boy pay for years...something ABX crews would not do 20 yrs ago or now. Yet now that is the bar that is put before us. Does anyone understand whipsawing? ATSG now owns 3 airlines. We do not yet have a new contract...to get aircraft from the other carriers we would have to agree to a matching or less contract like ATI did...to get promised aircraft at the cost of the other carriers...like ATI did..
understand? It's not rocket science.

Actually, I don’t think you understand. It is not the ATI pilots responsibility to get you a better contract. At K4 we financially witnessed taking it for the benefit of a corrupt 1224 upper management. How about holding your Union local accountable for your negotiations and stop blaming everyone else for lowering the bar. (If you are an AAWW pilot. If you are ABX your Union is doing a fine job without any help from anyone)

We have seen raising of the bar in some areas with ATI, K4 and Omni. Just because you disagree with their choices does not mean they are wrong. I support my Union but not yours, unless you put up a picket line. Then in that case it is no go for me and my brethren.

BTW I think ABX is doing a fine job at showing that whipsaw doesn’t effect you unless you choose to participate. ABX pilots union holds the line and seems to understand the bigger picture.

Jet757
07-11-2019, 01:33 PM
How many hours do ATI pilots fly per month and how long are layovers usually?

dera
07-11-2019, 04:28 PM
The ATI First Officer application window will open up next week on 7/16/19 and will remain open through 7/23/19.

Have they posted their minimum requirements yet?

nitefr8dog
07-11-2019, 06:10 PM
Actually, I donít think you understand. It is not the ATI pilots responsibility to get you a better contract. At K4 we financially witnessed taking it for the benefit of a corrupt 1224 upper management. How about holding your Union local accountable for your negotiations and stop blaming everyone else for lowering the bar. (If you are an AAWW pilot. If you are ABX your Union is doing a fine job without any help from anyone)

We have seen raising of the bar in some areas with ATI, K4 and Omni. Just because you disagree with their choices does not mean they are wrong. I support my Union but not yours, unless you put up a picket line. Then in that case it is no go for me and my brethren.

BTW I think ABX is doing a fine job at showing that whipsaw doesnít effect you unless you choose to participate. ABX pilots union holds the line and seems to understand the bigger picture.
Actually it is....they just like everyone else in ACMI owe it to the industry. If you are making 1 dollar and get a 100% pay raise you are make 2...still s#!t pay. We are being told an increase in our retirement benefits would mean ATI and OMNI would want increases too. So we could settle for less but are not willing to. Get it? If ABX holds out for more ATI and OMNI will have a better negotiating position also. Just like ATI accepted a lower DC, no scheduling protection, lower disability pay. Now when we negotiate with the company they say ..well ATI was willing to take it up the tail pipe in these areas ..why won't you? There is strength in a combined front..we may be different unions but we are fighting the same battle. Did you finish school? It's not that tough!! I feel like I am trying to teaching a 5 yr old how to back up a semi with a tandem trailer.

NeverHome
07-11-2019, 07:31 PM
Actually it is....they just like everyone else in ACMI owe it to the industry. If you are making 1 dollar and get a 100% pay raise you are make 2...still s#!t pay. We are being told an increase in our retirement benefits would mean ATI and OMNI would want increases too. So we could settle for less but are not willing to. Get it? If ABX holds out for more ATI and OMNI will have a better negotiating position also. Just like ATI accepted a lower DC, no scheduling protection, lower disability pay. Now when we negotiate with the company they say ..well ATI was willing to take it up the tail pipe in these areas ..why won't you? There is strength in a combined front..we may be different unions but we are fighting the same battle. Did you finish school? It's not that tough!! I feel like I am trying to teaching a 5 yr old how to back up a semi with a tandem trailer.

And if they voted no? Low pay and having qol issues. How is that not taking it up the tailpipe?

maxjet
07-12-2019, 01:11 AM
Actually it is....they just like everyone else in ACMI owe it to the industry. If you are making 1 dollar and get a 100% pay raise you are make 2...still s#!t pay. We are being told an increase in our retirement benefits would mean ATI and OMNI would want increases too. So we could settle for less but are not willing to. Get it? If ABX holds out for more ATI and OMNI will have a better negotiating position also. Just like ATI accepted a lower DC, no scheduling protection, lower disability pay. Now when we negotiate with the company they say ..well ATI was willing to take it up the tail pipe in these areas ..why won't you? There is strength in a combined front..we may be different unions but we are fighting the same battle. Did you finish school? It's not that tough!! I feel like I am trying to teaching a 5 yr old how to back up a semi with a tandem trailer.

Interesting analogy because it is you who still doesnít get it. My experience? Lead negotiator and Union President of a Law Enforcement agency in my previous 22 year career. Fortunately we did not have to deal with the RLA, and binding arbitration was our friend not the enemy it is to the aviation community. There are still some basic tenants that can be brought to bear here. I will try one last time and then get off of my soap box. Back in the day DHL was free to shift flying to the lowest bidder. Not so today. With a shortage of aircraft and Amazon in the mix, it is a good time to be in negotiations. If you keep putting excuses to fail in front of you it will never get better.

One needs to take the emotion out of the equation and boil it down to the basics. Please try to pay attention as this 5 year old explains it to you.😀

Connie Kalitta is a great example. Simple statement from him. Show me how paying you more, makes more money for me and I will pay you what we need to. Kalitta needed to expand. Kalitta couldnít hire pilots at the prevailing wages and benefits. That was the ROI. Just like that, a contract was done.

UPS/FedEx are masters at this. They donít negotiate for or against anyone. They negotiate for themselves. UPS has a very acrimonious relationship with management. I would submit worse that Atlas and ABX. How do they do it? They show management the ROI.

It really is that simple as long as you keep the emotion and finger pointing out of it.

nitefr8dog
07-12-2019, 05:00 AM
And if they voted no? Low pay and having qol issues. How is that not taking it up the tailpipe?
Grow a pair and fight for it.....

Bungalow
07-12-2019, 06:36 AM
Grow a pair and fight for it.....

Bar Raiser and Fighter ??!!
I want to be like you when I get out of 5th grade.

Cujo665
07-12-2019, 07:59 AM
Interesting analogy because it is you who still doesn’t get it. My experience? Lead negotiator and Union President of a Law Enforcement agency in my previous 22 year career. Fortunately we did not have to deal with the RLA, and binding arbitration was our friend not the enemy it is to the aviation community. There are still some basic tenants that can be brought to bear here. I will try one last time and then get off of my soap box. Back in the day DHL was free to shift flying to the lowest bidder. Not so today. With a shortage of aircraft and Amazon in the mix, it is a good time to be in negotiations. If you keep putting excuses to fail in front of you it will never get better.

One needs to take the emotion out of the equation and boil it down to the basics. Please try to pay attention as this 5 year old explains it to you.��

Connie Kalitta is a great example. Simple statement from him. Show me how paying you more, makes more money for me and I will pay you what we need to. Kalitta needed to expand. Kalitta couldn’t hire pilots at the prevailing wages and benefits. That was the ROI. Just like that, a contract was done.

UPS/FedEx are masters at this. They don’t negotiate for or against anyone. They negotiate for themselves. UPS has a very acrimonious relationship with management. I would submit worse that Atlas and ABX. How do they do it? They show management the ROI.

It really is that simple as long as you keep the emotion and finger pointing out of it.

Exactly. The industry isn't as it was just a few short years ago. Getting a short term deal like Omni & Kalitta did for 4 years gets them 85% of what they wanted is smart and positions them for negotiations in three years.

A great example of this was the USAir east/west fighting. An ALPA study showed that based upon contract gains made by other airlines during the years the USAir pilots refused to solve their issues cost the USAir pilots $2 BILLION in lost compensation.

I'm not a big fan of ALPA, but they occasionally do get it right. Taking an 85% deal over the short term with significant gains is better than zero over the same period.

Penny Smart & Dollar Stupid is the old saying that comes to mind.


Nothing is ever perfect.

NeverHome
07-12-2019, 08:02 AM
Grow a pair and fight for it.....

Or strategic moving of our pieces. One way is to plan ahead and try to estimate your opponents moves. You cannot get your opponent into check make right off the bat. And if they are good you wonít be able to do it in a few short moves.

Or, ATI can do it your way: throw the pieces into managements face and go for a brawl instead. Wonder whatís more effective :rolleyes:

Also, you never actually answered my question ;)

nitefr8dog
07-12-2019, 09:11 AM
Or strategic moving of our pieces. One way is to plan ahead and try to estimate your opponents moves. You cannot get your opponent into check make right off the bat. And if they are good you wonít be able to do it in a few short moves.

Or, ATI can do it your way: throw the pieces into managements face and go for a brawl instead. Wonder whatís more effective :rolleyes:

Also, you never actually answered my question ;)
Be willing to not settle for less than you are worth....working as a cohesive group with at a minimum the carriers under the same umbrella not low balling each other. It would be real easy for ABX to accept ATSG's low offer and cut a deal to get additional flying as was promised and done at ATI.

Cujo665
07-12-2019, 10:05 AM
Be willing to not settle for less than you are worth....working as a cohesive group with at a minimum the carriers under the same umbrella not low balling each other. It would be real easy for ABX to accept ATSG's low offer and cut a deal to get additional flying as was promised and done at ATI.

are the differences worth the difference between FO pay and CA pay that the extra flying will bring more upgrades? Different segments of your pilot group will look at the same deal very differently. There are a lot of variables that go into the calculation. It really depends what the sticking points currently are.

woog315
07-12-2019, 12:55 PM
Be willing to not settle for less than you are worth....working as a cohesive group with at a minimum the carriers under the same umbrella not low balling each other. It would be real easy for ABX to accept ATSG's low offer and cut a deal to get additional flying as was promised and done at ATI.

Who do you suppose wins when only 1 of 3 carriers is holding that line? ATI and Omni both have contracts and the total comp is nearly identical between them. Work rules are basically the same too. But listen to ABX guys and you’d think Omni signed a monster deal and ATI rolled over and ruined the industry- that’s just because most of us would rather hold strong opinions and trash ATI rather than actually sit down and do the math.

nitefr8dog
07-13-2019, 09:14 AM
Who do you suppose wins when only 1 of 3 carriers is holding that line? ATI and Omni both have contracts and the total comp is nearly identical between them. Work rules are basically the same too. But listen to ABX guys and youíd think Omni signed a monster deal and ATI rolled over and ruined the industry- thatís just because most of us would rather hold strong opinions and trash ATI rather than actually sit down and do the math.
Of course you forgot to mention Omni was not under the ATSG umbrella when they signed their contract....so joining forces with ABX and ATI to prevent whipsawing from JH really was not on the table now was it? I promise I would have hated most of it too.

b707guy
07-13-2019, 09:47 AM
Grow a pair and fight for it.....

Yeah, 4+ years of holding the line and coming out better for it = no pair. Got it.

Despite that your pair + your opinion = no room for much else in the building, here we go:

Although our CBA certainly leaves a lot to be desired, ATI absolutely raised the bar. How big of you to expect us to have continued life under our old CBA for the betterment of all. Voting no on what we did get would have lowered the bar for all from its then dismal low-ness.

You keep going on about ATI "taking it up the tailpipe for promises of new shiny jets". No such promises were made. You must have read that on the internet somewhere. Just because you all want it to have been the case, thus allowing you to make these claims, hardly makes it true.

I haven't researched it, but I'm pretty confident that even the most highly paid Walmart cart boy makes less than a 1st year FO at ATI (from day 1, I'll add...). A LOT less.

No scheduling protection? We have a number of things that are now protected and weren't before under the previous CBA. We've also gotten some post-ratification improvements. I won't elaborate, because it won't matter to you, being contrary to your agenda.

Lower DC? It may be lower than what you want, but certainly isn't lower than what we had, and it's more than what K4 and Omni have. You blame us and Omni for not getting more in retirement, so therefore, it's holding you back because if you got more, then we'd ask for more? How about considering that we couldn't get more because you already had more locked up? Thanks for playing into the whipsawing! But I'm happy for you all that you do have what you have.

You make endless fun of our scope (not entirely undeserved, I'll acknowledge), but your scope is what's preventing you from being allocated new aircraft. By all means, keep holding that line!

If we had voted no on this CBA, the tailpipe shoving would have been entirely self inflicted. You might be enjoying the experience, but we weren't going to, and, thankfully, aren't now. We took the steps needed to get on with life. Over 300 pilots are now doing quite well, because what we got was a vast improvement. And we'll continue to improve it. We could have held out for another, what, maybe 5% more of something? Who knows how long that could have taken? We could be hashing it out still to this day! Under our old CBA. And at the same time, like it or not, ABX isn't what it was 20 years ago. I know that wasn't yours or any pilot's doing, but it's the reality. It's up to your negotiators and 1224 to play the cards you have.

Cujo665
07-13-2019, 11:30 AM
To piggyback on what b707guys posted... at Omni the pilot group has grown by over 1/3rd since the new CBA, new to us planes are being added, an upgrades are well under 3 years. Sooner if you have the required mins. What’s better? A larger DC, or a faster upgrade to $200k plus a year? For those in the left seat already, what’s better a larger DC or a new payscale that changes top step from $219 to $297 per hour?

There’s an old saying...
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Likewise, those insisting on all at once or nothing contracts typically end up very disappointed.

Elevation
07-13-2019, 05:57 PM
I understand the thought that you need to take what you can get now rather than hold out for an eternity for a stellar contract. There are examples where pilot groups held out too long, as well. Having these thoughts might make a person more open to the idea of taking what they can get immediately.

I think in this case it's hard to ignore the fact that ATSG pit one group of pilots against another and got ATI to accept less than what they're worth. Going back into some of the older threads you can see references to narrow-body flying being awarded and threats of furloughs at ABX. To me it seems like this was a successful campaign to intimidate the ATI pilot group into accepting some pretty low wages to fly heavy jets. People retroactively look at this like a strategic decision to get an even better contract in the future. I'm not sure I buy this. The industry as a whole gets new contracts and makes concessions as macroeconomics change globally.

So as Delta, UPS or whatever company ratify new contracts, the order of desirability by company changes but not appreciably. Generally the companies at the top stay at the top and the companies at the bottom stay at the bottom. This usually changes only when large companies get absorbed or go out of business.

When we look at examples that have made that rare leap from bottom-feeder to good prospect, the examples I can think of all include radical leaps in compensation. Kalitta is a recent example of this. FedEx was a terrible job in the early years and smart pilots avoided working there. That all changed very, very rapidly. So the idea that it's strategically necessary to take what's easily available to improve your position in the future doesn't hold water.

ATI's new contract was sold as a way to facilitate growth. That growth in e-commerce was going to happen regardless. There simply weren't enough airplanes, pilots and operators to meet the transport demand of Amazon Air. Had you held out for more compensation, you'd still be getting airplanes and routes, or your new pilots would be at ABX, with remaining ATI pilots seeing ABX rates or higher.

Ultimately, ATI's decision was ATI's decision. I'm not aboard with giving these guys trouble. I don't think that accomplishes anything meaningful and makes the workplace more stressful. As pilots we promote and organize more or less as kids do in a highschool lunchroom. We move impulsively, and we superimpose a veneer of rationality onto our truly impulsive and emotional decisions. I think all of us (this includes me personally) suffer from this to varying degrees. The solution is to acknowledge this and correct for it.

Decisions are algorithms we all apply using the information available to us. ATSG management won the information campaign. 1224 struggles with this. In fact, the information campaign often is won or lost on the effors of just a few individuals who may or may not hold significant office.

b707guy
07-14-2019, 03:16 AM
I appreciate your perspective, Elevation, but I disagree with

Had you held out for more compensation, you'd still be getting airplanes and routes, or your new pilots would be at ABX, with remaining ATI pilots seeing ABX rates or higher.

While that's certainly something that could have happened, there's no way to say that that's what would have happened.

I do find it interesting where you said

When we look at examples that have made that rare leap from bottom-feeder to good prospect, the examples I can think of all include radical leaps in compensation. Kalitta is a recent example of this. FedEx was a terrible job in the early years and smart pilots avoided working there. That all changed very, very rapidly. So the idea that it's strategically necessary to take what's easily available to improve your position in the future doesn't hold water.

Why did K4 make the "rare leap", when ATI didn't? At least, that's what I take to be the opinion of so many here. But, as an opinion, it's either uninformed, or just plain obstinate. We're really on pretty much the same playing field when comparing ATI's 757/767 with the 767 at K4. The detail differences become barely noticeable in the grand scheme for the +/- arguments. FedEx has a slightly different growth history to use them as a benchmark for any of us. UPS had a more similar model in the early days. But both became wholly owned and are an entirely different animal. None of us are there yet (despite the extent of our relative operations compared with theirs when each of them "made the leap"). As for "strategically necessary", ours was more tactical, as evidenced by the short duration. Don't think for a second that we've lost sight of Mars. The moon is a much better staging point for getting to Mars than burning up on reentry after a launch failure. It's a great springboard if things continue upward, and it's a great holding point if things go downhill. It's very likely that we'll be well into negotiating our next CBA before ABX or Atlas have TA'd much of anything. It's also very possible that some of us will look nothing like we do today.

ACMItrash
07-14-2019, 03:41 AM
Actually still not bad. I havenít met a Walmart employee that works 24 hours a day. So total time away from base is pointless. Many trips provide a lot of time off. So even calculating all time away from base, we look closer and find that is the equivalent of getting paid for not working. Again that is a useless comparison. Especially since we donít have bases.

Oh yes and letís factor in upgrades. How long is it at ABX? ATIs time is falling. So a faster upgrade is more money in the pocket.

So more money in an ATI pilots pocket. Thatís hurting all the pilots in this industry how? Oh and letís not forget about QOL. Positive space, good work environment (good people on the line), strong potential for a fast upgrade (more money), and great experience if a pilot wants to go brown or purple.

Remind me again why the ATI contract is poor? Because when I dig into the numbers, I see a lot of positive things.

Coming from a guy who's screen name is never home! Keeping commuting on your day off sport! Hey can you trip trade your whole line if you like?

How are those 17 day in a row trips for the home life?

b707guy
07-14-2019, 03:57 AM
Coming from a guy who's screen name is never home! Keeping commuting on your day off sport! Hey can you trip trade your whole line if you like?

How are those 17 day in a row trips for the home life?

You are truly amazing.

Commuting on a day off is possible, but very unlikely, and generally self-inflicted. For the umpteenth time.
Yes, the entire line can be trip traded. For the umpteenth time.
17-day trips? We wouldn't know. We don't have any 17 day trips. For the umpteenth time.

Most people throw out their broken records. :rolleyes:

goinaround
07-14-2019, 06:13 AM
Coming from a guy who's screen name is never home! Keeping commuting on your day off sport! Hey can you trip trade your whole line if you like?

How are those 17 day in a row trips for the home life?

Hey refresh the folks on the commute policy at ABX and tell me how you're not commuting on your day off?

Cujo665
07-14-2019, 06:34 AM
I appreciate your perspective, Elevation, but I disagree with



While that's certainly something that could have happened, there's no way to say that that's what would have happened.

I do find it interesting where you said



Why did K4 make the "rare leap", when ATI didn't? At least, that's what I take to be the opinion of so many here. But, as an opinion, it's either uninformed, or just plain obstinate. We're really on pretty much the same playing field when comparing ATI's 757/767 with the 767 at K4. The detail differences become barely noticeable in the grand scheme for the +/- arguments. FedEx has a slightly different growth history to use them as a benchmark for any of us. UPS had a more similar model in the early days. But both became wholly owned and are an entirely different animal. None of us are there yet (despite the extent of our relative operations compared with theirs when each of them "made the leap"). As for "strategically necessary", ours was more tactical, as evidenced by the short duration. Don't think for a second that we've lost sight of Mars. The moon is a much better staging point for getting to Mars than burning up on reentry after a launch failure. It's a great springboard if things continue upward, and it's a great holding point if things go downhill. It's very likely that we'll be well into negotiating our next CBA before ABX or Atlas have TA'd much of anything. It's also very possible that some of us will look nothing like we do today.

Honestly, while the ATI contract was a very good gain for them, it came after a Kalitta and Omni ratified almost identical CBAís.... then ATI came in with lower wages instead of at least a match. Still, in the grand scheme it was what the employer was willing to do. If that didnít fix staffing and retention then theyíd have to sweeten the deal later... which Iím told you guys have had several small improvements already. Collectively added to the original gains.... not a bad deal at all. Omni and Kalitta both had the advantage of not having sister companies to be threatened with whipsaw. Weíll see how Omni does next time under ATSG.

nitefr8dog
07-14-2019, 02:38 PM
Hey refresh the folks on the commute policy at ABX and tell me how you're not commuting on your day off?
Well...when you bid one of the majority of our Amazon thrips that start with a commercial on the first day into position for starters...

NeverHome
07-14-2019, 05:36 PM
Coming from a guy who's screen name is never home! Keeping commuting on your day off sport! Hey can you trip trade your whole line if you like?

How are those 17 day in a row trips for the home life?

Screen name was from my regional days of commuting long distances to a crap schedule. In that life I was gone about 85% or more.

Now I donít commute at all. So whatever your smoking, probably best to seek help. Clearly you are very disconnected from the facts. Time to sober up there sport.

goinaround
07-14-2019, 06:39 PM
Well...when you bid one of the majority of our Amazon thrips that start with a commercial on the first day into position for starters...

So is the majority of your flying for Amazon? Or is it DHL and a TON of reserve lines with a 1 or 3 AM start?

Here's the offline commute policy:

The provisions of paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 of this Letter of Agreement shall apply to Crewmembers jumpseating on other CASS carriers provided that the Crewmember schedules his jumpseat at a time when there are at least two (2) back-up flights and the scheduled jumpseat is on a flight that is scheduled to arrive at least five (5) hours prior to his show time. The attempts to jumpseat on these flights must be verifiable.

I'm not great at math....but that sounds like day off commuting to me...

nitefr8dog
07-15-2019, 05:02 AM
So is the majority of your flying for Amazon? Or is it DHL and a TON of reserve lines with a 1 or 3 AM start?

Here's the offline commute policy:

The provisions of paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 of this Letter of Agreement shall apply to Crewmembers jumpseating on other CASS carriers provided that the Crewmember schedules his jumpseat at a time when there are at least two (2) back-up flights and the scheduled jumpseat is on a flight that is scheduled to arrive at least five (5) hours prior to his show time. The attempts to jumpseat on these flights must be verifiable.

I'm not great at math....but that sounds like day off commuting to me...
Yes....or a commercial into position.

maxjet
07-15-2019, 06:24 AM
So is the majority of your flying for Amazon? Or is it DHL and a TON of reserve lines with a 1 or 3 AM start?

Here's the offline commute policy:

The provisions of paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 of this Letter of Agreement shall apply to Crewmembers jumpseating on other CASS carriers provided that the Crewmember schedules his jumpseat at a time when there are at least two (2) back-up flights and the scheduled jumpseat is on a flight that is scheduled to arrive at least five (5) hours prior to his show time. The attempts to jumpseat on these flights must be verifiable.

I'm not great at math....but that sounds like day off commuting to me...

If you donít live in base and drive, donít most pilots commute on day 0? The benefit I have is that I can usually pick the flight I want and just smile when there is a delay or cancellation, knowing that if I get stuck at the hub on a transfer that I just make a phone call and I have a hotel room. (And keep the points) BTW, they pay me perdiem for the day, and 50% DH pay for my troubles.

nitefr8dog
07-16-2019, 03:32 AM
If you donít live in base and drive, donít most pilots commute on day 0? The benefit I have is that I can usually pick the flight I want and just smile when there is a delay or cancellation, knowing that if I get stuck at the hub on a transfer that I just make a phone call and I have a hotel room. (And keep the points) BTW, they pay me perdiem for the day, and 50% DH pay for my troubles.
At ABX commuting to domicile yes. I would say 75 % of our commuters ride the system from an airport close to home the night before work with missed trip contract protection.....our commercial trips that start on day one basically all the same as you said. Drive to airport get stuck at a hub, get a hotel, perdiem, 50% pay credit, blah, blah, blah. All pretty standard contract stuff. With CVG one of the most expensive airports to commercial in/out of into position....we can usually airline to and from home without a fight. Unless of course the airline portion starts in the middle of a pairing...then you are commercially from domicile.

maxjet
07-16-2019, 04:50 AM
At ABX commuting to domicile yes. I would say 75 % of our commuters ride the system from an airport close to home the night before work with missed trip contract protection.....our commercial trips that start on day one basically all the same as you said. Drive to airport get stuck at a hub, get a hotel, perdiem, 50% pay credit, blah, blah, blah. All pretty standard contract stuff. With CVG one of the most expensive airports to commercial in/out of into position....we can usually airline to and from home without a fight. Unless of course the airline portion starts in the middle of a pairing...then you are commercially from domicile.
Seems like a good situation to me. At K4 most of us still consider our work month to be 17 days. Most of us travel on day 0 to be in position to start our 16 day rotation. If they donít need you they have been pretty good at sending you home a day or so early. So far, I have not heard of anybody showing up at home early and having to kick their wifeís Boyfriend out :-)

nitefr8dog
07-16-2019, 05:10 AM
Seems like a good situation to me. At K4 most of us still consider our work month to be 17 days. Most of us travel on day 0 to be in position to start our 16 day rotation. If they donít need you they have been pretty good at sending you home a day or so early. So far, I have not heard of anybody showing up at home early and having to kick their wifeís Boyfriend out :-)
It's about as good as it gets without homebasing...pre DHL buyout when ABX was flying 113 aircraft to multiple cities in every state except WY..homebasing was not on the radar. I would venture to say even now 2/3 of the pilot group ride in on the DHL system on ABX/ATI/Kalita. Most have lived near one out station or another for 20 plus yrs. Now a large portion of our Amazon trips start or end with a commercial flight or both. The homebasing has huge pluses..it also comes with a cost associated with it. As it is the company has to commercial us anywhere to/from that requires a trip to start/end out base which has been increasing over the last few years. As far as the wife's boyfriend....I only hope he does not drink all my beer.

Cujo665
07-16-2019, 04:03 PM
At ABX commuting to domicile yes. I would say 75 % of our commuters ride the system from an airport close to home the night before work with missed trip contract protection.....our commercial trips that start on day one basically all the same as you said. Drive to airport get stuck at a hub, get a hotel, perdiem, 50% pay credit, blah, blah, blah. All pretty standard contract stuff. With CVG one of the most expensive airports to commercial in/out of into position....we can usually airline to and from home without a fight. Unless of course the airline portion starts in the middle of a pairing...then you are commercially from domicile.

At several other ACMI you do not travel on your days off.

At mine, First/last duty days are travel days. On duty with company provided tickets. We also have 2 over ride days that are rarely used because they have to pay considerable over rides to work you.
So the 18 days is really 16, two of which are your travel days so it’s really 14 days. Somewhere in that mess is at least a 30 hour. So, most you’re working is 13. In reality it’s far less. Average guy flys 25-48 hours a month. The rest is DH all over to sit short/long call in cities all over the world. Next year the 18 drops to 17.

nitefr8dog
07-16-2019, 04:49 PM
At several other ACMI you do not travel on your days off.

At mine, First/last duty days are travel days. On duty with company provided tickets. We also have 2 over ride days that are rarely used because they have to pay considerable over rides to work you.
So the 18 days is really 16, two of which are your travel days so itís really 14 days. Somewhere in that mess is at least a 30 hour. So, most youíre working is 13. In reality itís far less. Average guy flys 25-48 hours a month. The rest is DH all over to sit short/long call in cities all over the world. Next year the 18 drops to 17.
Yes....our commercials are all on a work day. There are many ways to gain extra days...I bid the lines that either DH or comm into position on your first/last day that are close to where I live and cancel the DHs and stay home 2 extra days. I think most pilots are pretty good at maximizing time at home and doing as little work as necessary. I also going to take a stab that most 7,8,9 day pairings have 30-36 hr layover somewhere built in it to reset the clock...ours do.

Cujo665
07-16-2019, 07:28 PM
Yes....our commercials are all on a work day. There are many ways to gain extra days...I bid the lines that either DH or comm into position on your first/last day that are close to where I live and cancel the DHs and stay home 2 extra days. I think most pilots are pretty good at maximizing time at home and doing as little work as necessary. I also going to take a stab that most 7,8,9 day pairings have 30-36 hr layover somewhere built in it to reset the clock...ours do.

A few posts earlier you said 75% of your pilots go in the night before work to get missed trip protection. Just trying to figure out which it is?

nitefr8dog
07-17-2019, 04:35 AM
A few posts earlier you said 75% of your pilots go in the night before work to get missed trip protection. Just trying to figure out which it is?
Have missed trip protection either way...commute on the system or miss a trip on a company paid commercial. And actually I said I would say ( a guess..never really took a poll) 75% use the system if they are not on a company paid ticket. Why? Thinking about coming over?

nitefr8dog
07-17-2019, 04:45 AM
At several other ACMI you do not travel on your days off.

At mine, First/last duty days are travel days. On duty with company provided tickets. We also have 2 over ride days that are rarely used because they have to pay considerable over rides to work you.
So the 18 days is really 16, two of which are your travel days so itís really 14 days. Somewhere in that mess is at least a 30 hour. So, most youíre working is 13. In reality itís far less. Average guy flys 25-48 hours a month. The rest is DH all over to sit short/long call in cities all over the world. Next year the 18 drops to 17.
That all sounds like quite a bit of planned lost productivity...something I am sure is being discussed at negotiations with 3 airlines at ATSG that cannot get on the same page.

t207
07-17-2019, 08:12 AM
That all sounds like quite a bit of planned lost productivity...something I am sure is being discussed at negotiations with 3 airlines at ATSG that cannot get on the same page.

Itís not lost productivity, itís FAR part 117 rest rules- Omni doesnít use the cargo cutout rules We fly people not boxes. I guess it can be discussed but it canít and wonít change as long as we haul warm bodies.
Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help itís ATI thatís the weak man in this.

FlyAstarJets
07-17-2019, 09:02 AM
.......Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help [I]itís ATI thatís the weak man in this.[/I
Why do you feel ATI is the weak link in the ďATSG messĒ (your words).

nitefr8dog
07-17-2019, 09:31 AM
"Also we just showed up to the ATSG mess and already all three MEC are communicating with each other so we can work as a united front against ATSG. Having the 1224 at two of the three companys while not perfect will help itís ATI thatís the weak man in this".[/QUOTE]


God help you!

vroll1800
07-18-2019, 11:15 PM
Do you really believe your argument makes any sense at all, or are you just being obstinate? The only professions that make more on average than pilots at our level are doctors and lawyers. The most important income driver for pilots at an airline with a reasonable contract (both abx and ati currently have reasonable contracts) is growth. ATI seems to get that, while ABX clearly doesnít.

If you think you deserve to have a line on your paycheck for when youíre getting drunk at the hotel bar and crying about how poorly management treats you, maybe you should consider a job that doesnít require travel. Itís part of the territory.

Some holes in your Swiss Cheese:

1) "Reasonable Contract"- Reasonable compared to what ? Your last regional, corporate 24/7 on call, or bottom feeder Acmi gig ? Do you really think ABX 2009 concessionary contract is reasonable compared to K4 or Omni break away 2016/17 CBA's ? With a 20% shortfall in hourly rate ?

Yes, I know about JRM/REA provisions, but the ~ $30 - $50K ABX shortfall across the spectrum of "normal" flying is a lot of extra days/schedule disruptions to get there.

As for ATI, they got improvements, but still fall short of K4, and Omni. Yes, a top ATI Captain base salary is within ~ 5% of K4 counterpart, but they're (ATI) is working 16 more days per year. K4 pilot working 16 open flying days per year would likely make ~ 12 - 15% more than ATI counterpart for working the same number of days. That would be like ordering a pizza, having the delivery driver eat 12 - 15% of your pizza, and expect you to be a happy customer.

2) Growth = Income Gain. No argument there, except it is management, not the pilot group, who calls the shots on expansion. Recall that a few years ago, Delta and Southwest pilot groups voted down company's initial offer, and negotiated an improved TA2. During, and after that interim period, did either airline curtail or freeze their hiring or growth plans ? At the other end, from the early 80's forward there have been countless examples of pilot groups making concessions, yet their companies still filed bankruptcy, or went out of business. Point being that managements will do what they're going to do wrt expansion irregardless of how generous or stingy their pilot contact is.

3) Hotel Soft Time- Much of the airline world outside of Acmi does (sort of) pay you for hotel soft time. Ever hear of Trip Rigs, Minimum Pay Per Duty Period (MPDP), or Minimum Pay Per Day (MPD) ? Certainly helps with those low block/ high TAFB lines.

woog315
07-19-2019, 02:29 AM
Some holes in your Swiss Cheese:





2) Growth = Income Gain. No argument there, except it is management, not the pilot group, who calls the shots on expansion. Recall that a few years ago, Delta and Southwest pilot groups voted down company's initial offer, and negotiated an improved TA2. During, and after that interim period, did either airline curtail or freeze their hiring or growth plans ? At the other end, from the early 80's forward there have been countless examples of pilot groups making concessions, yet their companies still filed bankruptcy, or went out of business. Point being that managements will do what they're going to do wrt expansion irregardless of how generous or stingy their pilot contact is.

3) Hotel Soft Time- Much of the airline world outside of Acmi does (sort of) pay you for hotel soft time. Ever hear of Trip Rigs, Minimum Pay Per Duty Period (MPDP), or Minimum Pay Per Day (MPD) ? Certainly helps with those low block/ high TAFB lines.

ATSG gets to pick which airline to send the growth, call it whatever you want (competition... whipsaw.. whatever) but it is not the same game the single carrier companies play.

Money gets moved around different ways, I do not care how my paycheck is divied up as long as my take home is in the ballpark, and has been noted a million times ABX gets a lot of soft pay that puts their end paycheck in the ballpark of the other ACMI guys. Also, "reasonable" does not mean there is no room for improvement.

Boris Badenov
07-20-2019, 04:28 AM
but it is not the same game the single carrier companies play.

It kinda is, just with an extra middle-man. Ultimately, all companies are competing with other companies, whether it's Delta vs. American, Atlas vs. Omni, or ATI vs. ABX. Granted, when the checks come from the same building, it becomes a lot easier to scare the rubes.

CASmessage
07-30-2019, 06:10 AM
Let me caveat this question by saying I did my research and still cannot find the answer (company website, APC, FlightAware)!

I understand ATI has ETOPS for certain regions but from what I can tell almost all (if not all) of the current flying is in the lower 48. Is this correct? Or are there lines to bid that will be international or at least class II Nav flying?

Thanks all.

CardboardCutout
07-30-2019, 06:36 AM
Let me caveat this question by saying I did my research and still cannot find the answer (company website, APC, FlightAware)!

I understand ATI has ETOPS for certain regions but from what I can tell almost all (if not all) of the current flying is in the lower 48. Is this correct? Or are there lines to bid that will be international or at least class II Nav flying?

Thanks all.

Saw them in Yokota a couple of months ago...

goinaround
07-30-2019, 08:03 AM
Saw them in Yokota a couple of months ago...

They are doing the Honolulu run for NAC while they work on ETOPS. Weird thing about ATSG....they own a few airlines....but the main interest of the parent company seems to be growing other airlines with their aircraft leasing business (as opposed to growing their own airline infrastructure).

dogo
07-30-2019, 09:13 AM
Just a little history. Joe Hete and Quint Turner set the game in 2008. They despise pilots and the margins are greater with leasing, plus they donít have to deal with personnel. They are both accountants with thin skin. With that said, protect your career and seek other employment. You are expendable. Regardless what John Vestal tells you. They are in the process of shutting down ABX as evidenced by the recent loss of Aeromex. Good luck.

FlyAstarJets
07-30-2019, 09:39 AM
Let me caveat this question by saying I did my research and still cannot find the answer (company website, APC, FlightAware)!

I understand ATI has ETOPS for certain regions but from what I can tell almost all (if not all) of the current flying is in the lower 48. Is this correct? Or are there lines to bid that will be international or at least class II Nav flying?

Thanks all.
ATI works South Atlantic, Indian Ocean and Deep Pac with scheduled Combi service for AMC. We also do NAT freighter work on and off for AMC.

CASmessage
07-30-2019, 09:59 AM
ATI works South Atlantic, Indian Ocean and Deep Pac with scheduled Combi service for AMC. We also do NAT freighter work on and off for AMC.

Thanks for the info!

maxjet
07-30-2019, 10:16 AM
They are doing the Honolulu run for NAC while they work on ETOPS. Weird thing about ATSG....they own a few airlines....but the main interest of the parent company seems to be growing other airlines with their aircraft leasing business (as opposed to growing their own airline infrastructure).

How are they doing a HNL route while “working on” ETOPS?

tikicarver
07-30-2019, 10:22 AM
he meant ATI is flying for NAC under a wet lease agreement , while NAC is working on getting ETOPS so they can use their own pilots. The plane is on the NAC certificate.

How are they doing a HNL route while ďworking onĒ ETOPS?

nitefr8dog
07-30-2019, 11:00 AM
Just a little history. Joe Hete and Quint Turner set the game in 2008. They despise pilots and the margins are greater with leasing, plus they donít have to deal with personnel. They are both accountants with thin skin. With that said, protect your career and seek other employment. You are expendable. Regardless what John Vestal tells you. They are in the process of shutting down ABX as evidenced by the recent loss of Aeromex. Good luck.
Frees up alot of crews for 4 qtr to help alleviate the JRm...protect DHL/Amazon

Kiwikid
08-03-2019, 11:46 AM
Is the application window closed for ATI?

FlyAstarJets
08-03-2019, 02:30 PM
Is the application window closed for ATI?
Yes. But it will open again. We are hiring 10-12 every 3 weeks through the end of the year. At this frequency, 10-12 is shaping up to be the sweet spot

Hope this helps.

FAJ

nightsky2
08-03-2019, 02:31 PM
Is the application window closed for ATI?

Yes. Several of us post the app window when we find out about it. Stay tuned, ATI is growing fast.

No Land 3
08-03-2019, 02:56 PM
Yes. Several of us post the app window when we find out about it. Stay tuned, ATI is growing fast.
As fast as they can print Prime Air bag tags?

airbus300
08-03-2019, 03:55 PM
As fast as they can print Prime Air bag tags?

Shut up...

Riverside
08-03-2019, 04:08 PM
Shut up...

Don't be so quick to cross the line.

airbus300
08-03-2019, 05:02 PM
Don't be so quick to cross the line.

What line did I cross?

JonnyKnoxville
08-03-2019, 06:06 PM
That right there is hilarious!

Kiwikid
08-03-2019, 06:55 PM
Yes. But it will open again. We are hiring 10-12 every 3 weeks through the end of the year. At this frequency, 10-12 is shaping up to be the sweet spot



Hope this helps.



FAJ



Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kiwikid
08-03-2019, 06:55 PM
Yes. Several of us post the app window when we find out about it. Stay tuned, ATI is growing fast.



Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CardboardCutout
08-04-2019, 07:55 AM
"Shut up" was the best you could come up with? You're phoning it in, now.

not miserabex
08-04-2019, 09:25 AM
As fast as they can print Prime Air bag tags?

As fast as they can re-paint the ABEX planes? :D

No Land 3
08-05-2019, 05:29 AM
Riverside won that one

nitefr8dog
08-05-2019, 09:15 AM
As fast as they can re-paint the ABEX planes? :D
Ooops.....except ABX has scope.

nitefr8dog
08-05-2019, 10:07 AM
As fast as they can re-paint the ABEX planes? :D
I should have said...except for that pesky scope..(which ATI does not have)...just saying. Also no E in ABX.

not miserabex
08-05-2019, 10:45 AM
I should have said...except for that pesky scope..(which ATI does not have)...just saying. Also n E in ABX.

Ooops, that scope does not cover Amazon :D

Only the highly coveted DHL hub sit.

The scope also does not prevent DHL from pulling even more ABX flying and giving it to Atlas.... something that everybody seems to accept without a single complaint.

Also, there is an 'o' in no so we are even.

dogo
08-05-2019, 11:08 AM
Wait until Amazon decides to pull the flying from Hete and gives it to Kalitta. You will pray for scope. Just keep repeating what your scab management tells you. Did I spell everything correctly?

goinaround
08-05-2019, 11:21 AM
Wait until Amazon decides to pull the flying from Hete and gives it to Kalitta. You will pray for scope. Just keep repeating what your scab management tells you. Did I spell everything correctly?

I think most Kalitta pilots are praying we stay well clear of this "Amazon Air" food fight.

dogo
08-05-2019, 11:47 AM
I hope so as well. But you never know with what BeZos will do. Connie doesnít need Amazon like Joe Hete and ATSG does.

not miserabex
08-05-2019, 11:49 AM
Wait until Amazon decides to pull the flying from Hete and gives it to Kalitta. You will pray for scope. Just keep repeating what your scab management tells you. Did I spell everything correctly?

First, I think we all can agree there is not a scope that will prevent Amazon from pulling their aircraft from anybody and placing them anywhere they want. That includes ABX, Atlas and ATI. Amazon does not have a contract with the pilots, only to lease the aircraft and separately have crews operate the AMAZON aircraft. Amazon and DHL can do that regardless of any scope Atlas and ATSG agrees to with their pilots. The aircraft and the pilots are separate. ABX has no scope to prevent that. PERIOD.

You can wish and hope and pray, ain't gonna' happen. Even I wish we could but you have to be honest with yourself.

Second, you have sidestepped the whole topic of DHL migrating aircraft from ABX to Atlas. How did scope help you there?

I do not know the numbers as I am not involved but I would enjoy to hear you tell us the ratio of ABX to Atlas at DHL say... 5 years ago and the ratio today?

I just find it highly hypocritical of everybody to attack ATI while they ignore what 1224 is doing to each other.

So.... hypothetical situation....

IF ATLAS were to demand a scope that forbid any other carrier from operation any and all DHL and Amazon flights, would you support them if they struck for it?

Knowing doing so would put you out of a job?

IF Kalitta were to do the same, would you support them?

IF ATI were to do the same, would you support them?

dogo
08-05-2019, 12:56 PM
Either way I win! Got me one of those defined benefit programs. Fully funded. At least Joe and Soapy couldnít beat us out of that.

Jurassic Jet
08-05-2019, 12:57 PM
Either way I win! Got me one of those defined benefit programs. Fully funded. At least Joe and Soapy couldnít beat us out of that.

Yeah but you didnít get one of those cool Prime Air bag tags like the real Prime Air Pilots. Priorities man!

Riverside
08-05-2019, 01:36 PM
I don't see how Connie would get a good deal out of this.

No Land 3
08-05-2019, 02:11 PM
I don't see how Bezos would get a good deal out of Connie either. He won't get any controlling interest in Kalitta, and I wouldn't think Connie would let him gain any leverage.
Bezos can promise 20 airplanes to company A, he props them up, they hire 600 pilots. He now has total leverage of company A by threatening to take away those airplanes.
Could I see Connie doing 5 airplanes for Bezos for a three year contract? Sure, no different than anything else we do.

not miserabex
08-05-2019, 03:25 PM
Yeah but you didnít get one of those cool Prime Air bag tags like the real Prime Air Pilots. Priorities man!

And again you sidestepped everything I said and resorted to your childish Ďbag tagí chant.
You are very predictable. If somebody says something that shows the holes in your balloon, you resort to;
Blah, blah, blah, bag tag.
Blah, blah, blah, scab.
Blah, blah, blah, scope.
No facts, not debate, just change the subject and hope everybody doesnít notice the problem with your fantasy.
How do you feel about the guys boasting how much overtime money they were making while your fellow brother teamsters were on furlough? I thought it was a give to NEVER work overtime while others are on furlough. Certainly never brag about it.
How about your fellow brothers that are NOT fully funded? Eh, screw them, it is all about you.
Shut it down, that will show them.
Do you really think Hete and the gang will suffer at all if that happened? They have enough to live the life of Riley even if ATSG shut down tomorrow. Only your fellow employees, mx, office, junior pilots will suffer over your Ďshow themí attitude. The leasing arm will continue. The mx arm will continue. Only you and your carrier will disappear. Still enough income for them. Even if they got booted by the shareholders, they will be living far better than you.
Do things suck? Yes. Would scope be nice? Yes. Is it going to happen with third parties leasing planes? Nope.
All you are doing is alienating the ATI pilots more and more. Seems to me you should be trying to build bridges, not burning them. Especially given ABXís shrinking status. You are friends with Atlas and they ARE taking your flying. Odd. If Atlas got scope for all the DHL flying, will you be ok with that? Or should Atlas NOT ask for scope? Scope is good unless it hurts you.
I think you are too afraid to answer my questionsÖ.
Hypothetical situation....

IF ATLAS were to demand a scope that forbids any other carrier from operating any and all DHL and Amazon flights, would you support them if they struck for it?

Knowing doing so would put you and everyone else at your carrier out of a job? Not just you, everyone.

IF Kalitta were to do the same, would you support them?

IF ATI were to do the same, would you support them?
I think you will resort to the usualÖ
Blah, blah, blah bag tag, scab, scope.
Predictable.

Cujo665
08-05-2019, 07:03 PM
I hope so as well. But you never know with what BeZos will do. Connie doesnít need Amazon like Joe Hete and ATSG does.

64% increase in ATSG revenue this quarter over last year. None from anything Amazon related. Plus Omni is a cash cow.

not miserabex
08-06-2019, 12:34 AM
64% increase in ATSG revenue this quarter over last year. None from anything Amazon related. Plus Omni is a cash cow.



Maybe I am missing something...

ē Customer revenues were $334.6 million, up $131.0 million, or 64 percent.
Each of ATSG's principal business segments, aircraft leasing and air transport, reported higher revenues for the second quarter. Revenues from Omni Air International, which ATSG acquired in November 2018, were the largest contributor to the year-over-year revenue gain.


In December 2018, ATSG agreed to lease ten more Boeing 767-300 converted freighters to Amazon

I read that as ALL segments showed gains, including the Amazon sector (ten more planes). Also, of course Omni show the greatest increase as they only were acquired in November of 2018. They did not contribute anything to second quarter of 2018 as they had not yet become part of ATSG.
Made up numbers just to explain...
If each arm made 100 million last year and 110 million this year, the INCREASE is 20 Million. Omni was not part of ATSG last year so zero is the benchmark for Omni to ATSG for second quarter of 2018. They contributed 120 million this year so they are the largest contributor to the the INCREASE. The important statistic is NOT this year but NEXT year.
Yes, they are a money maker, much like the ATI combi's are money makers, Omni is that times 100... maybe that is why ATSG bought Omni?

Which brings up a good point... ABX is the ONLY carrier NOT allowed to carry pax. Atlas, Kalitta, ATI, Omni and even Southern can carry pax. Always nice to have a fall back if Amazon starts moving aircraft to other carriers... well, except ABX.

Yes, Amazon is a food fight. But ya' gotta' eat.
Can't we all just get along? (Rodney King)

goinaround
08-06-2019, 01:15 AM
Maybe I am missing something...

ē Customer revenues were $334.6 million, up $131.0 million, or 64 percent.
Each of ATSG's principal business segments, aircraft leasing and air transport, reported higher revenues for the second quarter. Revenues from Omni Air International, which ATSG acquired in November 2018, were the largest contributor to the year-over-year revenue gain.


In December 2018, ATSG agreed to lease ten more Boeing 767-300 converted freighters to Amazon

I read that as ALL segments showed gains, including the Amazon sector (ten more planes). Also, of course Omni show the greatest increase as they only were acquired in November of 2018. They did not contribute anything to second quarter of 2018 as they had not yet become part of ATSG. Yes, they are a money maker, much like the ATI combi's are money makers, Omni is that times 100... maybe that is why ATSG bought Omni?

Which brings up a good point... ABX is the ONLY carrier NOT allowed to carry pax. Atlas, Kalitta, ATI, Omni and even Southern can carry pax. Always nice to have a fall back if Amazon starts moving aircraft to other carriers... well, except ABX.

Yes, Amazon is a food fight. But ya' gotta' eat.
Can't we all just get along? (Rodney King)

Kalitta canít carry pax. Donít believe Southern can either. Listen to Taylor.....you need to calm down. Youíre being too loud.

not miserabex
08-06-2019, 01:28 AM
Kalitta canít carry pax. Donít believe Southern can either. Listen to Taylor.....you need to calm down. Youíre being too loud.

Noted.
Do not see were I said anything that was not in a civil manor.
Never resorted to childish name calling when I could not reply with an intelligent answer.
Just asking questions and pointing out the obvious.
Just the same. I am open minded and will sit back and see if they ever answer my questions with something other than bag tag, and scab.
Thanks.

I stand corrected on the PAX thing. ABX is the only carrier under the ATSG umbrella that cannot carry PAX. Of the current Amazon carriers, Atlas and ATI can carry PAX. ABX and Southern do not have that option... though, from my understanding (which is probably wrong as I am not there), Southern will be rolled into Atlas at some point. I also doubt ATI will ever have a pax only aircraft. The feedstock is there but doubtful with Omni being set up to do that already. The sand box is big enough for all of us to play nicely and apart.

goinaround
08-06-2019, 01:43 AM
Noted.

I'll sit back and see if they ever answer my questions with something other than bag tag, and scab.

Doubt it. Wait them out....they are old.

nitefr8dog
08-06-2019, 03:25 AM
Ooops, that scope does not cover Amazon :D

Only the highly coveted DHL hub sit.

The scope also does not prevent DHL from pulling even more ABX flying and giving it to Atlas.... something that everybody seems to accept without a single complaint.

Also, there is an 'o' in no so we are even.
Ooooops....the scope cover the aircraft and DHL s#it. Aircraft on the ABX certificate cannot be transferred to a sister company. So doesn't look like an paint which was what you were talking about...transfering ABX aircraft to ATI. Yes all ATSG aircraft could be transferred to ATLAS or K4 or Southern etc. But not ABX to ATI or OMNI. What do you have? Also the DHL North American flying per scope in 767 is done by ABX except for one aircraft that was allowed when an ATI 757 will be down for maintenance. (which is conveniently all the time) .
Do you know anything about ABX scope or just guessing and hoping?

Lockheed
08-06-2019, 06:00 AM
Kalitta canít carry pax. Donít believe Southern can either. Listen to Taylor.....you need to calm down. Youíre being too loud.

K4 can carry passengers
its in our op-specs

goinaround
08-06-2019, 09:14 AM
K4 can carry passengers
its in our op-specs

Well there ya go....

not miserabex
08-06-2019, 11:45 AM
Ooooops....the scope cover the aircraft and DHL s#it. Aircraft on the ABX certificate cannot be transferred to a sister company. So doesn't look like an paint which was what you were talking about...transfering ABX aircraft to ATI. Yes all ATSG aircraft could be transferred to ATLAS or K4 or Southern etc. But not ABX to ATI or OMNI. What do you have? Also the DHL North American flying per scope in 767 is done by ABX except for one aircraft that was allowed when an ATI 757 will be down for maintenance. (which is conveniently all the time) .
Do you know anything about ABX scope or just guessing and hoping?

This whole scope thing is so confusing...

So... take N714AX,
That was an ABX aircraft? A quick internet search shows that aircraft at ATI? I am confused how that happened. Does the scope not forbid that?

Ok... maybe isolated incident.
Wait... didn't CAM trade one of the 'tainted tails' for 255?

It has been explained to me, and it might be completely wrong, that scope letter has been interpreted to only include the specific tails that were at ABX on the day it was written? I think that was being argued and again, I am truly interested in the truth.


Really all ATSG has to do is swap out the tainted tails for ones that have never been at ABX. ATSG has enough that they can easily swap out all the tainted tails with other companies like Amerijet, UPS ...
Would that not make the 767 portion of the scope useless?
Now the DHL part is pretty clear and very smart on your part. Granted, you have to remember your fight is with ATSG, NOT ATI. ATI flies what ATSG gives them. Why be mad at ATI pilots when you should be venting at ATSG.

So, lets say ATI grew a set and held out for scope on all the Amazon flying. Would you applaud them for standing up and helping the cause while shutting ABX out?


Really, I am open minded here. See if you can explain this in a civil way without all the sh!t.

Convince me to side with you. I am open minded... are you?

These are serious questions. Convince me with an intelligent, civil debate.

nitefr8dog
08-06-2019, 12:07 PM
This whole scope thing is so confusing...

So... take N714AX,
That was an ABX aircraft? A quick internet search shows that aircraft at ATI? I am confused how that happened. Does the scope not forbid that?

Ok... maybe isolated incident.
Wait... didn't CAM trade one of the 'tainted tails' for 255?

It has been explained to me, and it might be completely wrong, that scope letter has been interpreted to only include the specific tails that were at ABX on the day it was written? I think that was being argued and again, I am truly interested in the truth.


Really all ATSG has to do is swap out the tainted tails for ones that have never been at ABX. ATSG has enough that they can easily swap out all the tainted tails with other companies like Amerijet, UPS ...
Would that not make the 767 scope useless?


Really, I am open minded here. See if you can explain this in a civil way without all the sh!t.

Convince me to side with you. I am open minded... are you?

These are serious questions. Convince me with an intelligent, civil debate.
I wish I cared if you agreed or sided with me ....but I don't. 714AX was never flown by ABX crews... on property but not flown. As far as swapped/traded/moved...it has happened 3 times I know of all with union approval and for the most part an advantage to ABX..(226 etops for 3 yrs of HNL flying was one). Others monitor this more closely than I do. Countless times (in writing) there have been requests to move aircraft...most have been denied. Also has to do with the retirement and ABX assets at the time of the stock being delisted. The aircraft are now on Cams Certicate just like ATI's and soon Omni's. But the PBGC considers the original ABX aircraft tied to the ABX retirement.

not miserabex
08-06-2019, 12:24 PM
I wish I cared if you agreed or sided with me ....but I don't.

And there lies the problem.

nitefr8dog
08-06-2019, 12:41 PM
And there lies the problem.
Ah come on....you guys would step on our necks to keep your feet dry. Who you kidding.

nitefr8dog
08-06-2019, 06:36 PM
This whole scope thing is so confusing...

So... take N714AX,
That was an ABX aircraft? A quick internet search shows that aircraft at ATI? I am confused how that happened. Does the scope not forbid that?

Ok... maybe isolated incident.
Wait... didn't CAM trade one of the 'tainted tails' for 255?

It has been explained to me, and it might be completely wrong, that scope letter has been interpreted to only include the specific tails that were at ABX on the day it was written? I think that was being argued and again, I am truly interested in the truth.


Really all ATSG has to do is swap out the tainted tails for ones that have never been at ABX. ATSG has enough that they can easily swap out all the tainted tails with other companies like Amerijet, UPS ...
Would that not make the 767 portion of the scope useless?
Now the DHL part is pretty clear and very smart on your part. Granted, you have to remember your fight is with ATSG, NOT ATI. ATI flies what ATSG gives them. Why be mad at ATI pilots when you should be venting at ATSG.

So, lets say ATI grew a set and held out for scope on all the Amazon flying. Would you applaud them for standing up and helping the cause while shutting ABX out?


Really, I am open minded here. See if you can explain this in a civil way without all the sh!t.

Convince me to side with you. I am open minded... are you?

These are serious questions. Convince me with an intelligent, civil debate.
rereading your post....yes the fight is not ATI per se....its the common fight to not accept a sub standard contract which then ATSG compares to the other carriers they own. We are fighting for increases in all areas not just pay. Now we are being told why would I agree to that...I would have to give the same to ATI and OMNI. You will see on the next round of negotiations. ATI wanted home basing and a raise....we want more money than you and no home basing and our scheduling rules, higher DC match, disability, scope etc. Your contract makes that tough. Hete can move your aircraft tomorrow to OMNI or ABX...what's that worth? Plus you will never get that protection. We will get a contract...we just won't accept yours. But now that you have yours ours will be much harder to get. Should have worked together..
As far as going away....we have 25 aircraft pay 200k a month to CAM and 200+ pilots. That's 5-6M a month
60M a yr. Alot of revenue to walk away from because you are having a tantrum over a strike. Won't happen. If it does we have something again nobody else has....preferential hiring at both OMNI and ATI...and he is sorry he ever agreed to it. I was flying with a 3rd FO that said 3rd pay starting at either carrier would be fine. There you have it.

No Land 3
08-07-2019, 07:36 AM
rereading your post....yes the fight is not ATI per se....its the common fight to not accept a sub standard contract which then ATSG compares to the other carriers they own. We are fighting for increases in all areas not just pay. Now we are being told why would I agree to that...I would have to give the same to ATI and OMNI. You will see on the next round of negotiations. ATI wanted home basing and a raise....we want more money than you and no home basing and our scheduling rules, higher DC match, disability, scope etc. Your contract makes that tough. Hete can move your aircraft tomorrow to OMNI or ABX...what's that worth? Plus you will never get that protection. We will get a contract...we just won't accept yours. But now that you have yours ours will be much harder to get. Should have worked together..
As far as going away....we have 25 aircraft pay 200k a month to CAM and 200+ pilots. That's 5-6M a month
60M a yr. Alot of revenue to walk away from because you are having a tantrum over a strike. Won't happen. If it does we have something again nobody else has....preferential hiring at both OMNI and ATI...and he is sorry he ever agreed to it. I was flying with a 3rd FO that said 3rd pay starting at either carrier would be fine. There you have it.

People bash Mesa all the time, but one thing they did get was a scope clause that forbid multiple sister companies, after Freedom Air. Sounds like you guys could of used that. The reality is you will never get different pilot groups wanting the same exact things, and holding back one group to prop up the other leads to the opposite of what you want.
I don't fault ATI for wanting home basing, it is a life changer.
However, this regional level political hurt feelings bullcrap needs to stop. It is unrealistic, immature, and stupid to even think anyone has a say in another pilot groups negotiations. We all want and need each pilot group to hit a grand slam with every new contract, but at the same time, locking in significant gains and avoiding extra years of negotiations for the last 10% is also a win.

nitefr8dog
08-07-2019, 08:57 AM
People bash Mesa all the time, but one thing they did get was a scope clause that forbid multiple sister companies, after Freedom Air. Sounds like you guys could of used that. The reality is you will never get different pilot groups wanting the same exact things, and holding back one group to prop up the other leads to the opposite of what you want.
I don't fault ATI for wanting home basing, it is a life changer.
However, this regional level political hurt feelings bullcrap needs to stop. It is unrealistic, immature, and stupid to even think anyone has a say in another pilot groups negotiations. We all want and need each pilot group to hit a grand slam with every new contract, but at the same time, locking in significant gains and avoiding extra years of negotiations for the last 10% is also a win.
Everyone "could" have used that...the next best is scope which does not allow ABX aircraft to be moved to sister companies which neither of the other two companies have. With DHL purchasing Airborne Express and the spin off of ABX..followed by the meltdown of DHL US...things were changing pretty rapidly. Demanding a no sister company clause as the whole company was being divided into multiple companies and the stock was under 1$ and being delisted would have gone over like a fart in church. I am guessing we would have had to pay them to fly the planes. Its quite a different environment than when ATI negotiated their contract with record ATSG profits, and growth with all the additional Amazon flying. As far as home basing..great if that's what they want. It's just not something ABX crews are willing to give up money for. Me I would rather have an extra 40-50k and buy a ticket for 200$ every 3 or 4 mos if I have to. Which I never have in 20 plus yrs. I have missed one flight in that whole time because of an overflight of the city. A call to scheduling and they said...see ya tomorrow night...got in the car and went home.

Cujo665
08-07-2019, 09:22 AM
Maybe I am missing something...

ē Customer revenues were $334.6 million, up $131.0 million, or 64 percent.
Each of ATSG's principal business segments, aircraft leasing and air transport, reported higher revenues for the second quarter. Revenues from Omni Air International, which ATSG acquired in November 2018, were the largest contributor to the year-over-year revenue gain.


In December 2018, ATSG agreed to lease ten more Boeing 767-300 converted freighters to Amazon

I read that as ALL segments showed gains, including the Amazon sector (ten more planes). Also, of course Omni show the greatest increase as they only were acquired in November of 2018. They did not contribute anything to second quarter of 2018 as they had not yet become part of ATSG.
Made up numbers just to explain...
If each arm made 100 million last year and 110 million this year, the INCREASE is 20 Million. Omni was not part of ATSG last year so zero is the benchmark for Omni to ATSG for second quarter of 2018. They contributed 120 million this year so they are the largest contributor to the the INCREASE. The important statistic is NOT this year but NEXT year.
Yes, they are a money maker, much like the ATI combi's are money makers, Omni is that times 100... maybe that is why ATSG bought Omni?

Which brings up a good point... ABX is the ONLY carrier NOT allowed to carry pax. Atlas, Kalitta, ATI, Omni and even Southern can carry pax. Always nice to have a fall back if Amazon starts moving aircraft to other carriers... well, except ABX.

Yes, Amazon is a food fight. But ya' gotta' eat.
Can't we all just get along? (Rodney King)

Go Read the stockholders report...

ABX may not carry pax, but Omni doesnít do cargo or play the Amazon shuffle.

corpjet
08-07-2019, 10:17 AM
Where do you apply for ATI, I checked the webpage and doesnīt show openings for first officers? Thanks

NeverHome
08-07-2019, 11:14 AM
Where do you apply for ATI, I checked the webpage and doesnīt show openings for first officers? Thanks

The window is currently closed. It wonít be long before the window reopens. If you know anyone here, have them give you the heads up as to the next window when itís announced. Otherwise someone will post it on this thread.

Best wishes

FlyAstarJets
08-07-2019, 11:15 AM
Where do you apply for ATI, I checked the webpage and doesnīt show openings for first officers? Thanks
The window closed. But it should reopen again soon.

Av8er1550
08-07-2019, 01:18 PM
Itís training pay min guarantee and no per diem? Also, are there opportunities for CVG people to pick up any OT or is it min guarantee every month?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlyAstarJets
08-07-2019, 02:23 PM
Itís training pay min guarantee and no per diem? Also, are there opportunities for CVG people to pick up any OT or is it min guarantee every month?
You get min guarantee from day one of training. There is no such thing as ďTraining PayĒ at ATI.
Since we are Home Based, there is no advantage in living near a hub for picking up published OT. But when Crew Scheduling knows where you live, and an emergency crops up, for expediency, they call who lives local first.

corpjet
08-07-2019, 02:39 PM
The window is currently closed. It wonít be long before the window reopens. If you know anyone here, have them give you the heads up as to the next window when itís announced. Otherwise someone will post it on this thread.

Best wishes

Thanks for the info I will be on the lookout

corpjet
08-07-2019, 02:41 PM
The window closed. But it should reopen again soon.

Thanks for the info

Av8er1550
08-07-2019, 03:30 PM
You get min guarantee from day one of training. There is no such thing as ďTraining PayĒ at ATI.

Since we are Home Based, there is no advantage in living near a hub for picking up published OT. But when Crew Scheduling knows where you live, and an emergency crops up, for expediency, they call who lives local first.



Ok thanks. Is there a decent bit of OT available each month? Still about a 2 year upgrade?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CASmessage
08-12-2019, 01:14 AM
Does anyone know if ATI will be attending any job fair over the rest of the year? I donít see them confirmed on any FAPA/ similar event.

RH1228
08-12-2019, 05:40 AM
Does anyone know if ATI will be attending any job fair over the rest of the year? I donít see them confirmed on any FAPA/ similar event.

SEA 8/24

https://fapa.aero/pilot_job_fair.asp?conf=SEA19

People are getting in class pretty quick right now FWIW.

CASmessage
08-12-2019, 08:22 AM
SEA 8/24

https://fapa.aero/pilot_job_fair.asp?conf=SEA19

People are getting in class pretty quick right now FWIW.

Wow I should have looked more recently! I wouldnít be able to make that unfortunately. Iíll keep my eye out to see if they attend any future events. Thanks for the info on training.

FlyAstarJets
08-15-2019, 08:35 AM
Wow I should have looked more recently! I wouldnít be able to make that unfortunately. Iíll keep my eye out to see if they attend any future events. Thanks for the info on training.

In addition to that one, ATI will also be at:

Embry Riddle-Prescott 10/3
Southern Illinois University 11/8

HR is firming up others and ill try to post them when I hear something solid.

Hope this helps,

FAJ

CASmessage
08-15-2019, 02:07 PM
In addition to that one, ATI will also be at:

Embry Riddle-Prescott 10/3
Southern Illinois University 11/8

HR is firming up others and ill try to post them when I hear something solid.

Hope this helps,

FAJ

Great thank you! Is there a direct way to contact recruiting/HR?

FlyAstarJets
08-22-2019, 09:54 AM
The ATI Hiring Window will open August 23írd thru September 2índ.

For those interested, go to Airtransport.cc, scroll to the bottom of page, under ďCareersĒ click on ďJob PortalĒ, and fill out the online app.

Hope this helps,
FAJ