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tangowhsky
12-27-2018, 12:17 PM
After my current assignment ends i'll be at 17 years and able to leave and a passed over major. I had the inclination to stay until 20...but is it still worth it now.

Unfortunately, thinking 20 years and 0-5 was going to happen, I never really began educating myself on all the other possibilities. e.g., joinging the guard/reserves. I just figured i'd do my 20 followed by the second career with the airlines.

Momma is worried of my now thinking getting out soonest to get that line number is preferential, but I haven't done the proper research to know for sure yet...or even where to begin. I'm unsure on the whole process and don't even know things like; if I get out at 17 years, then get on full time with guard/reserves to get to my "20", do I still have to wait until age 60 for the check of the month?

I don't dislike what i'm doing or would be doing those last few years...i'm flying...is good! But could use some words of wisdom, lessons learned, pros and cons, etc. of considerations. Thanks all!


Excargodog
12-27-2018, 01:02 PM
After my current assignment ends i'll be at 17 years and able to leave and a passed over major. I had the inclination to stay until 20...but is it still worth it now.

Unfortunately, thinking 20 years and 0-5 was going to happen, I never really began educating myself on all the other possibilities. e.g., joinging the guard/reserves. I just figured i'd do my 20 followed by the second career with the airlines.

Momma is worried of my now thinking getting out soonest to get that line number is preferential, but I haven't done the proper research to know for sure yet...or even where to begin. I'm unsure on the whole process and don't even know things like; if I get out at 17 years, then get on full time with guard/reserves to get to my "20", do I still have to wait until age 60 for the check of the month?

I don't dislike what i'm doing or would be doing those last few years...i'm flying...is good! But could use some words of wisdom, lessons learned, pros and cons, etc. of considerations. Thanks all!


Guard and Reserve retirements generally require monetary benefits to start at age 60:

https://ec.militarytimes.com/guard-reserve-handbook/retirement/basic-plans/

You might want to look in to the career intermission program:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/117576-career-intermission-program.html

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/132707p.PDF?ver=2018-10-18-114030-977

goinaround
12-27-2018, 04:05 PM
Accumulate 3 more years of qualifying active duty with the guard/reserve and draw an active duty retirement just like you would otherwise. Whatever you choose to do.....do NOT throw away 17 years!


Uh60mgamecock
12-27-2018, 04:45 PM
Iím having a hard time pondering the 13 year mark and leaving. 17 years would be a no brained to stay. Have you contemplated being a 2 time SELCON?

tangowhsky
12-27-2018, 05:17 PM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/117576-career-intermission-program.html[/url]

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/132707p.PDF?ver=2018-10-18-114030-977

I remember this coming out from the afpc bot, and thinking that's neat and all...but I won't need to bother with that. Thanks for pointing me over to it to throw into the "exit strategy book of knowledge."

I was sure the several guys I knew from previous assignment, who were passed over, traded patches one day, were put on full time orders and are about to finish what I assumed would be the remainder of their time for the active duty retirement. I just never asked if that's what was actually being done or possible.

Wheelsoff
12-28-2018, 05:37 AM
Iíd be very careful about trying the career intermission program. Some others on here have said they intend to try it, but I donít trust the AF as far as I can throw a rock, so itís a ďhard noĒ for me. Make sure you fully understand the program/rules/regs thoroughly beforehand.

I do think itís a valuable program for some, but I donít believe the intent of it was for people to take a break to gain employment somewhere, then try to hide behind USERRA when they are forced to return to active duty for X years. Could be wrong, but I donít think that will go over too well with your respective airline employer. I know for myself personally, I wouldnít risk it as it seems foolish.

As others have said, the ďsafestĒ (and easiest) option is probably to find a guard/reserve unit, get on full time orders or an AGR slot to make it to 20.

SaltyDog
12-28-2018, 06:49 AM
After my current assignment ends i'll be at 17 years and able to leave and a passed over major. I had the inclination to stay until 20...but is it still worth it now.


Finish to 20, certainly simplified without Guard/Reserve in the mix and can focus only on where you want to live and civilian flying job that may enhance the package called quality of life.
Kids? ages? family issues? (Aging parents, family wants to move to XYZ? or are they open to ABC?, DEF?

How much longer on current assignment? Then what possible/most likely follow on orders? Flying orders best. What might be your currency when hit 20?
What are you flying now?

Can you get to your final airline job right out of this tour (Where are peers getting hired?)
Then you need to look at ANG/Reserve unit arrangements to fit airline mix. Airline domicile locations with unit locations. Which airline/Guard/Reserve combination determines where you live and commuting pain priorities.

Airline and Reserve combination is a significant life commitment and family pays for your dual status as service member and airline employee. Extraordinary to have family survive a dual commute. I lived in airline domicile through 2 airlines and chose to commute to the military reserve duty. In my circumstance that provided more opportunity to be with family. Others determine to live in Guard/Reserve location as that works better.

Economics: Have you saved up for the move after this tour ends? Go to a regional, then grab Guard/reserve duty location, then move to final airline job?

Its easy to throw dart and stay 20 and then focus on fewer variables, but throwing in the considerations above is very individual to you and your family. The answers will certainly help you determine best choices and best fit going forward.
Definitely look at the details of how your life will look if leave before 20/after 20. This is only a very rough cut of considerations.
Best in your adventure and journey!

Wheelsoff
12-28-2018, 07:59 AM
Iíll caveat my previous post with what saltydog said above - the ďeasiestĒ option would be to ride it out to 20 on AD, followed by the guard/reserve option. Fewer life variables that way, as mentioned.

For me, I plan on getting out at my commitment (wonít have 17 years by then anyways) so my life situation is different.

tangowhsky
12-28-2018, 11:13 AM
Finish to 20, certainly simplified without Guard/Reserve in the mix and can focus only on where you want to live and civilian flying job that may enhance the package called quality of life.
Kids? ages? family issues? (Aging parents, family wants to move to XYZ? or are they open to ABC?, DEF?

How much longer on current assignment? Then what possible/most likely follow on orders? Flying orders best. What might be your currency when hit 20?
What are you flying now?

Can you get to your final airline job right out of this tour (Where are peers getting hired?)
Then you need to look at ANG/Reserve unit arrangements to fit airline mix. Airline domicile locations with unit locations. Which airline/Guard/Reserve combination determines where you live and commuting pain priorities.

Airline and Reserve combination is a significant life commitment and family pays for your dual status as service member and airline employee. Extraordinary to have family survive a dual commute. I lived in airline domicile through 2 airlines and chose to commute to the military reserve duty. In my circumstance that provided more opportunity to be with family. Others determine to live in Guard/Reserve location as that works better.

Economics: Have you saved up for the move after this tour ends? Go to a regional, then grab Guard/reserve duty location, then move to final airline job?

Its easy to throw dart and stay 20 and then focus on fewer variables, but throwing in the considerations above is very individual to you and your family. The answers will certainly help you determine best choices and best fit going forward.
Definitely look at the details of how your life will look if leave before 20/after 20. This is only a very rough cut of considerations.
Best in your adventure and journey!

I appreciate the info you caged my mind to ponder/discuss SaltyDog. That certainly makes it sound like staying in is undoubtedly simpler. Several folks I previously worked with sure made it look easy at face value, but since I never sat down with them to ask these kind of questions, I really have no idea how it was really going.

After reading up on posts about that CIP program, it does seem like that might be something i'd rather not chance...plus i don't want to owe any more years than I have to.

I'm a C-17 bubba with a little over 2 years left on current assignment. As long as the health holds up, currency should not be an issue once done. And actually for QoL on the last assignment, back to UPT or PIT are leading that race.

Fellas, thanks for some good points to ponder.

Wheelsoff
12-28-2018, 02:19 PM
I appreciate the info you caged my mind to ponder/discuss SaltyDog. That certainly makes it sound like staying in is undoubtedly simpler. Several folks I previously worked with sure made it look easy at face value, but since I never sat down with them to ask these kind of questions, I really have no idea how it was really going.

After reading up on posts about that CIP program, it does seem like that might be something i'd rather not chance...plus i don't want to owe any more years than I have to.

I'm a C-17 bubba with a little over 2 years left on current assignment. As long as the health holds up, currency should not be an issue once done. And actually for QoL on the last assignment, back to UPT or PIT are leading that race.

Fellas, thanks for some good points to ponder.

Iím a former C-17 guy currently at UPT. If you have questions about it, let me know.

BLUF: itís way better in AETC. I wonít be going back to AMC unless something terrible happens that forces me to.

Good luck!

Sputnik
12-28-2018, 05:05 PM
Tough call man. I was in a similar boat about 10 years ago, but it was pre the hiring boom and I had no idea what I wanted to do when (if?) I grew up. Staying to 20 was a no brainer for me. But different times.

I recommend you talk to closest reserve unit and checking your options. I seem to recall complications in getting picked up as a passed over dude. Again, different times now.

If reserves are an option, you got a spreadsheet to build and some tough conversations to have with the wife.

FWIW, I stayed in and my last assignment was by far my best. I didn't want to retire as an O4. But being a terminal O4 added some fun to those last few years.

Hard to give up that active duty pension. And the health care is pretty nice.

Good luck

navigatro
12-28-2018, 05:38 PM
The best part of retirement is you never have to read the word "BLUF" in an e-mail again.

Unless you read it on this website.

In any case, definitely get your 20 then go to the airlines.

tangowhsky
12-28-2018, 06:18 PM
Iím a former C-17 guy currently at UPT. If you have questions about it, let me know.



BLUF: itís way better in AETC. I wonít be going back to AMC unless something terrible happens that forces me to.



Good luck!



I taught UPT before this assignment. Was pretty burnt out after 2.5 years. But I tell the young'uns how it really can be a blessing in disguise if you can leverage the groundhog effect. Most days I'm wondering why I didn't find a way to make it better and stay two assignments (i.e., swap airframes).

Wheelsoff
12-29-2018, 06:07 AM
I taught UPT before this assignment. Was pretty burnt out after 2.5 years. But I tell the young'uns how it really can be a blessing in disguise if you can leverage the groundhog effect. Most days I'm wondering why I didn't find a way to make it better and stay two assignments (i.e., swap airframes).

Gotcha. Been doing this for 2 years now and there are groundhog days, no doubt, but Iím still loving it! T-6s are probably a different story...those guys/gals work harder than anyone.

Otterbox
12-29-2018, 07:06 AM
After my current assignment ends i'll be at 17 years and able to leave and a passed over major. I had the inclination to stay until 20...but is it still worth it now.

Unfortunately, thinking 20 years and 0-5 was going to happen, I never really began educating myself on all the other possibilities. e.g., joinging the guard/reserves. I just figured i'd do my 20 followed by the second career with the airlines.

Momma is worried of my now thinking getting out soonest to get that line number is preferential, but I haven't done the proper research to know for sure yet...or even where to begin. I'm unsure on the whole process and don't even know things like; if I get out at 17 years, then get on full time with guard/reserves to get to my "20", do I still have to wait until age 60 for the check of the month?

I don't dislike what i'm doing or would be doing those last few years...i'm flying...is good! But could use some words of wisdom, lessons learned, pros and cons, etc. of considerations. Thanks all!

Without the spousal support for the large pay cut for the first year, it’s going to be stressful without that pension supplement to your income, no matter where you end up, especially if you’re a commuter or a single income household.

Going to the airlines 3 years early at the 17 year mark will earn you approximately $750k-$1.05mil for the last three years of your airline career depending on if you retire as a Narrow Body Captain or Widebody Captain.

Waiting three years and collecting O-4 (ret) pay will earn you approximately $969k-1.11mil between retirement and age 65 (depending on if you’re retiring at 42 or 45yrs old).

Math checks out that you’re probably financially better off staying in and going for the pension at that point. Live longer than age 65 and you earn far more by staying for 20 over your life time.

rickair7777
12-29-2018, 07:11 AM
Historical CW would be stay for 20 (and I've told people that in no uncertain terms in years past). However...

At this exact moment in time (due to airline retirement demographics) that would probably cost you a great deal in terms of seniority and ultimate compensation.

Odds are decent that you could bail now, lock in airline seniority, and then participate in guard/reserves to either qualify for a regular AD retirement, or as a consolation prize the reserve retirement at age 60.

It comes down to risk tolerance and how hard you want to chase the best possible airline deal. Upside is having your cake and eating it too. Downside is risk of economic issues, or worst-case medical issues and possibly ending up unable to fly or participate in the reserves to finish the retirement.

di1630
12-29-2018, 09:13 AM
Dude, stay in and min run that ****. Fly, make a difference by helping the USAF be better but don't give 2 f-cks's about the qweep and BS unless it adds to the mission, saves a life or helps someone in genuine need.

I'd be a the gym each day, out of the office by 1630 or earlier, chaffing off BS, using leave whenever I please and voicing my real opinion without fear of repercussion.

Other than the few bucks you are missing on O-5 pay, you are on the home stretch man to a guaranteed pension and healthcare for life and no reason to play the game.

Stick it out.

tangowhsky
12-29-2018, 11:11 AM
... T-6s are probably a different story...those guys/gals work harder than anyone.

I'll vouch for this. The lack of variation and mostly rinse and repeat is what grinds one down.

tangowhsky
12-29-2018, 11:19 AM
...you are on the home stretch man to a guaranteed pension and healthcare for life and no reason to play the game.

Stick it out.

I'm seeing it this way more and more. I suppose i've been working off of the ole 5 stages of grief about the passed over bit...just hard when we all know we have earned it, and barely miss the cutoff.

Excargodog
12-29-2018, 07:51 PM
I'm seeing it this way more and more. I suppose i've been working off of the ole 5 stages of grief about the passed over bit...just hard when we all know we have earned it, and barely miss the cutoff.

I knew a number of good people who got passed over for O-5 (and a few real whisky deltas that somehow made o-6 and O-7). It's a fallible system. Put the hurt behind you and do what makes the most sense. But the numbers are pretty close no matter which way you jump:

https://militarypay.defense.gov/calculators/active-duty-retirement/final-pay-calculator/

The advantage to finding a way to stay to twenty is both the healthcare and the certainty that the pension will be there, even if you become medically disqualified tomorrow. That's not a clincher necessarily but it is a factor to consider.

And three more years, by the time you count terminal leave and everything, heck you could be interviewing in a little under two and a half years.

Hacker15e
12-30-2018, 01:57 AM
Going to the airlines 3 years early at the 17 year mark will earn you approximately $750k-$1.05mil for the last three years of your airline career depending on if you retire as a Narrow Body Captain or Widebody Captain.

Waiting three years and collecting O-4 (ret) pay will earn you approximately $969k-1.11mil between retirement and age 65 (depending on if you’re retiring at 42 or 45yrs old).

All it takes is a single merger, a single recession, a single furlough, a single bankruptcy, to completely erase the "3 years early" financial benefit.

And, of course, we know that during the course of a 20+ year airline career there's no chance of any of that happening, right?

On the other hand, short of a massive government meltdown (in which case all bets are off anyway), that mil retirement check is going to be hitting your bank account for life.

Staying to 20 and getting both the pension and the medical benefits are a far more secure bet at the 17 year point.

RckyMtHigh
12-30-2018, 04:20 AM
Benefits of a mil pension from what Iíve seen.

You donít have to work as hard as the next guy. Fly your min line, drop stuff or trade down when you want, and not worry about the hit to your paycheck. My retirement gets me a couple extra days off a month and a 20 hour layover in San Diego instead of 12 hours in Detroit.

Health insurance costs. At SWA anyway, between the company provided free plan and free tricare, we have zero health insurance costs for a family of four. Probably several thousand dollar a year benefit.

Security. My dad got out of the Navy with 15 years in to go with one of the top US carriers at the time. 15 years later, Eastern went bankrupt. Even if you survive a downturn with a job, concessionary contracts are a real thing in this business and years of a real financial hit certainly a possibility. With mil retirement, we wonít be living large, but weíll keep everyone housed, fed, and seeing the doctor if everything goes south.

Merle Dixon
12-30-2018, 10:51 AM
Historical CW would be stay for 20 (and I've told people that in no uncertain terms in years past). However...

At this exact moment in time (due to airline retirement demographics) that would probably cost you a great deal in terms of seniority and ultimate compensation.

Odds are decent that you could bail now, lock in airline seniority, and then participate in guard/reserves to either qualify for a regular AD retirement, or as a consolation prize the reserve retirement at age 60.

It comes down to risk tolerance and how hard you want to chase the best possible airline deal. Upside is having your cake and eating it too. Downside is risk of economic issues, or worst-case medical issues and possibly ending up unable to fly or participate in the reserves to finish the retirement.

With American and United projected to hire 1,000ish each in 2019. Delta 500+, FedEx 500+, not sure about SWA. My vote is you finding a Guard/Reserve job and bail for the airlines. Seniority is EVERYTHING.

I am a UPT reservist. We have multiple AGR openings at the UPT bases. I personally know 3 guys that bailed AD at the 15 to 17 year mark (one of my Broís bailed at 18 years!) got hired by us as Traditional Part-Time reservists, got airline jobs and within 12 months had AGR jobs - which got them to their 20-year active duty retirement.

From what I have heard AFRC wide and via the Guard too, there are AGR jobs open all over the nation. Any insight from any other AFRC/Guard folks on here?

Get an airline job, part-time Guard/Reserve gig, 6 to 9 months later AGR.

Hank Burley
12-30-2018, 11:30 AM
With American and United projected to hire 1,000ish each in 2019. Delta 500+, FedEx 500+, not sure about SWA. My vote is you finding a Guard/Reserve job and bail for the airlines. Seniority is EVERYTHING.

I am a UPT reservist. We have multiple AGR openings at the UPT bases. I personally know 3 guys that bailed AD at the 15 to 17 year mark (one of my Broís bailed at 18 years!) got hired by us as Traditional Part-Time reservists, got airline jobs and within 12 months had AGR jobs - which got them to their 20-year active duty retirement.

From what I have heard AFRC wide and via the Guard too, there are AGR jobs open all over the nation. Any insight from any other AFRC/Guard folks on here?

Get an airline job, part-time Guard/Reserve gig, 6 to 9 months later AGR.

If you can stand AMC for a few years, TACC at Scott will take almost any warm body for at least 3 years and more on title 10 orders if you are willing. Several airline guys work there.

OldSkool
12-30-2018, 11:49 AM
If you can stand AMC for a few years, TACC at Scott will take almost any warm body for at least 3 years and more on title 10 orders if you are willing. Several airline guys work there.

Are these orders USERRA exempt?

hindsight2020
12-30-2018, 12:05 PM
Are these orders USERRA exempt?

Probably not. You gotta go nonner it up the Stans, shiny penny school, or formal training course for those.

Hank Burley
12-30-2018, 01:00 PM
Are these orders USERRA exempt?

Not anymore.

rickair7777
12-30-2018, 01:25 PM
Are these orders USERRA exempt?

Doesn't matter if you only need three years.

PNStoKLIT
12-30-2018, 04:11 PM
Are these orders USERRA exempt?

Some title 10 orders are exempt. The 5 year USERRA protections are exempt from being used by any of the following:


(1) that is required, beyond five years, to complete an initial period of obligated service;

(2) during which such person was unable to obtain orders releasing such person from a period of service in the uniformed services before the expiration of such five-year period and such inability was through no fault of such person;

(3) performed as required pursuant to section 10147 of title 10, under section 502(a) or 503 of title 32, or to fulfill additional training requirements determined and certified in writing by the Secretary concerned, to be necessary for professional development, or for completion of skill training or retraining; or

(4) performed by a member of a uniformed service who is--

(A) ordered to or retained on active duty under section 688, 12301(a), 12301(g), 12302, 12304, or 12305 of title 10 or under section 331, 332, 359, 360, 367, or 712 of title 14;

(B) ordered to or retained on active duty (other than for training) under any provision of law because of a war or national emergency declared by the President or the Congress. as determined by the Secretary concerned;

(C) ordered to active duty (other than for training) in support, as determined by the Secretary concerned, of an operational mission for which personnel have been ordered to active duty under section 12304 of title 10;

(D) ordered to active duty in support, as determined by the Secretary concerned, of a critical mission or requirement of the uniformed services; or

(E) called into Federal service as a member of the National Guard under chapter 15 of title 10 or under section 12406 of title 10.


Good luck getting those orders cut though!

LuckyNo70
12-31-2018, 02:06 AM
The AF is 2000 pilots short, AFRC manning is at 60% retirement eligible, not sure about the Guard. The manning model simply cannot escape the bath tub created years ago with the demand for pilots.

Find a unit, join them, enjoy the new experience. You will be able to find orders to secure the 20 year retirement fairly easy in this environment, and, most likely get promoted in the process. AMC is full of passed over Majors that are now Lt Cols well on their way to an active duty retirement and increasing their seniority at a major airline. Many do it part time and keep both employers happy, it can be done, all depends on your ability to set it up. Remember, if you are at 17 years now, you will most definitely make Lt Col which makes your HYT 28 years. That is 11 years to get three years of orders or 7 if you somehow do not get promoted in the Reserves or Guard. And extensions are being handed out now at even prime units due to the 60% retirement eligible in AFRC mentioned earlier.

Either way you have great options, PM me if you want a more in depth look at current opportunities.

Sorry for the butt hurt of non promotion, it sucks, I saw it many times in active units with folks that have amazing records. However, the manning model says only this many Lt Cols and passover happens. You can determine your next move, it is not dictated by a promotion board.

Good luck and Happy New Year!

hvydvr
01-04-2019, 12:02 PM
Dude, stay in and min run that ****. Fly, make a difference by helping the USAF be better but don't give 2 f-cks's about the qweep and BS unless it adds to the mission, saves a life or helps someone in genuine need.

I'd be a the gym each day, out of the office by 1630 or earlier, chaffing off BS, using leave whenever I please and voicing my real opinion without fear of repercussion.

Other than the few bucks you are missing on O-5 pay, you are on the home stretch man to a guaranteed pension and healthcare for life and no reason to play the game.

Stick it out.

This. Retired AD here as well.

Couple of things I didn't realize that are pretty massive right now. TRICARE is the biggest benefit out there bar none. When I hear some of the healthcare cost stories from others, I realize what a huge bullet that's been dodged by having that.

Major or Lt Col retirement money means you don't have to run around doing stupid sh!t on year 1 trying to make a mortgage. Having that pension made life a lot easier that first year.

Have I missed out on some things because I was a couple of years late to the party? You bet, but for me having those other things for the rest of my life make up for it IMO.

Good Luck.

decrabbitz
01-07-2019, 01:59 AM
Couple of things I didn't realize that are pretty massive right now. TRICARE is the biggest benefit out there bar none


Iím not sure. The biggest benefit to me has been the ability to pass on the GI Bill to my child. Saving me $50,000 a year, so a $200,000 benefit. Not sure Tricare beats that...

Sputnik
01-07-2019, 04:22 AM
Couple of things I didn't realize that are pretty massive right now. TRICARE is the biggest benefit out there bar none


Iím not sure. The biggest benefit to me has been the ability to pass on the GI Bill to my child. Saving me $50,000 a year, so a $200,000 benefit. Not sure Tricare beats that...

Over the course of retired life it might be close. Insurance at DL aint cheap and there is a lot of co pays I aint paying.

Splitting hairs here, retirement nets you Tricare. Certain number of years and signing paperwork gets GI Bill transfer--retirement not all all necessary.

Certainly a fantastic benefit

hvydvr
01-07-2019, 09:24 AM
Couple of things I didn't realize that are pretty massive right now. TRICARE is the biggest benefit out there bar none


Iím not sure. The biggest benefit to me has been the ability to pass on the GI Bill to my child. Saving me $50,000 a year, so a $200,000 benefit. Not sure Tricare beats that...

Wife was in a huge accident 2 yrs after retirement. Four surgeries and two hospital stays. Hospitals charged over $100,000. I had $250 left on the $3000 cap and thatís what I paid. Over a 40 yr retirement, it wonít even be close.

PRS Guitars
01-07-2019, 02:41 PM
Couple of things I didn't realize that are pretty massive right now. TRICARE is the biggest benefit out there bar none


I’m not sure. The biggest benefit to me has been the ability to pass on the GI Bill to my child. Saving me $50,000 a year, so a $200,000 benefit. Not sure Tricare beats that...

Sorry to tell you, you don’t have to retire to pass on the GI bill. I passed on 100% and am a reservist.

135tankerdriver
01-18-2019, 09:32 PM
Without the spousal support for the large pay cut for the first year, itís going to be stressful without that pension supplement to your income, no matter where you end up, especially if youíre a commuter or a single income household.

Going to the airlines 3 years early at the 17 year mark will earn you approximately $750k-$1.05mil for the last three years of your airline career depending on if you retire as a Narrow Body Captain or Widebody Captain.

Waiting three years and collecting O-4 (ret) pay will earn you approximately $969k-1.11mil between retirement and age 65 (depending on if youíre retiring at 42 or 45yrs old).

Math checks out that youíre probably financially better off staying in and going for the pension at that point. Live longer than age 65 and you earn far more by staying for 20 over your life time.

If he gets out at 17 and does three good years heíd get a reserve retirement that starts at age 60. It appears you did not factor that in your calculations. If not could someone chime in on about how much that would be. Thanks.

rickair7777
01-19-2019, 05:24 AM
If he gets out at 17 and does three good years he’d get a reserve retirement that starts at age 60. It appears you did not factor that in your calculations. If not could someone chime in on about how much that would be. Thanks.

With 17 years AD and a few reserve years to seal the deal, at age 60 (earlier if he does any OCO deployments in the reserves) that would amount to almost the same regular AD he would have got at 20 (that 17 years is a HUGE weighting factor, he gets full credit for that). He could actually beat the regular AD value if he makes O5 (probably will) and stays longer than 20 (more points x higher paygrade value).

On and On
01-25-2019, 12:25 AM
With 17 years AD and a few reserve years to seal the deal, at age 60 (earlier if he does any OCO deployments in the reserves) that would amount to almost the same regular AD he would have got at 20 (that 17 years is a HUGE weighting factor, he gets full credit for that). He could actually beat the regular AD value if he makes O5 (probably will) and stays longer than 20 (more points x higher paygrade value).

Reserves are the way to go IMHO. You can utilize Tricare Reserve Select for your family and I think it is about $220 a month. In AETC specifically, mandays are at a premium! Yes it's a grind, but until you hire on with an airline you can still get paid and earn points until retirement. We have had guys at their 19 year point jump to the Reserves, crank out the 365 they needed for a full AD retirement at their own pace while applying to the airlines. You can't chaff off Big Blue and hit the gym for 2 hours a day and bail at 1630. They simply dig their claws in and will not let you go this route. I say find a Reserve flying gig you want, where you want and jump from AD.

C17B74
02-12-2019, 04:19 PM
Awesome advice throughout these posts. Get Both!!! My 2 cents having paralleled your situation for the most part. Everything is situation dependent and timing is everything in my case. Find that Guard/Reserve unit (Location, Deploy/non deploy, AGR vacancies, Lt Col slots), get that airline of choice and get acclimated with your new environment. Juggle your schedule with the airline and order sets (deployments or home station alerts, whatever) to accumulate those 3 years, or do the AGR gig, or AMC/TACC, AFRC HQ, Guard Bureau (ANGRC), etc. USERRA exempt wonít apply with 3 years remaining. Guys bring it up because they may have nearly exhausted their 5 years with their employer and USERRA exempt orders could bring them across the finish line which I fully understand. I myself (Lord willing) patched together 4 of the 5 aforementioned orders/job titles to get the check of the month club/TRICARE/line number. Donít forget to consider your VA disability benefits if applicable and pass your GI benefits as others have mentioned. 4 years remaining to be eligible I believe and every solid year (365 points) after 20 AD years is 2.5% more of your base pay which should be considered. These benefits have dropped the pressure of possible unforeseen furloughs, stagnant upgrades/economy, health risks ending ones career overnight, family coverage, seniority benefits, etc. It was a huge decision and a big jump no doubt, but at least the ball is in your court for the most part. Good Luck and Godspeed!

BottleRocket
06-09-2019, 03:26 PM
Same question, except change the conditions to be a 15 year guy, only 5 years to retirement, AFPC is dangling the sweet Germany flying gig, but the threat of deployment and wing staff jobs is real. The long term goal was always airlines, but looks like the decision is being accelerated due to the hiring wave.

Is the Tricare and check of the month peace of mind worth 5 years of seniority and at least 180 day?
Is there anyone that thinks we're due for a recession that will affect those recently hired by the majors?
Get out and get the ANG/Res position and fight for the remaining five years?

rickair7777
06-10-2019, 01:30 PM
Same question, except change the conditions to be a 15 year guy, only 5 years to retirement, AFPC is dangling the sweet Germany flying gig, but the threat of deployment and wing staff jobs is real. The long term goal was always airlines, but looks like the decision is being accelerated due to the hiring wave.

Is the Tricare and check of the month peace of mind worth 5 years of seniority and at least 180 day?
Is there anyone that thinks we're due for a recession that will affect those recently hired by the majors?
Get out and get the ANG/Res position and fight for the remaining five years?

Tough call, personally I'd lean to airlines for the long game.

You can finish out in the guard/reserve and get full retirement credit for the 15 years (at age 60).

Some risk there obviously, but even with some sort of slowdown (and even mild furloughs) you'd still be ahead money and QOL with that seniority. Furloughs are less likely due to retirements, which march on regardless. Legacies have enough retirement-induced training requirements to stretch their systems to the limits as it is.

Excargodog
06-10-2019, 03:13 PM
Not a tough call at all. You can either be at the front of the hiring wave or the back. Thatís the difference five years will make. You will never have a better opportunity than you do right now if airline flying is the ultimate goal. Sure, get a Guard or Reserve slot if feasible, but get your seniority started NOW, not five years from now. Otherwise you will be 3-4 THOUSAND slots lower in seniority your entire airline career. Ask any sixty-four year old Captain how much that would have cost hem.

rickair7777
06-21-2019, 09:27 AM
Same question, except change the conditions to be a 15 year guy, only 5 years to retirement, AFPC is dangling the sweet Germany flying gig, but the threat of deployment and wing staff jobs is real. The long term goal was always airlines, but looks like the decision is being accelerated due to the hiring wave.

Is the Tricare and check of the month peace of mind worth 5 years of seniority and at least 180 day?

Right now IMO, No. Five years would put you on the back side of the retirement wave, although with retirements still humming along by historical standards.

Assumes that you finish up in the reserves, so you would still have Tricare, except for the "Grey Area" between reserve retirement and age 60. If you want low-impact, some non-flying reserve jobs are pretty close to one weekend/month, two weeks/year.

But it's risk vs. reward. The totally risk-averse option would be to stay in. Only you know where you fall on the spectrum. Make sure the spouse is educated on this stuff. I've known guys who missed out on a lot because wifey wanted too stay in, solely because she was comfortable in the mil ecosystem and didn't know anything about the real world.


Is there anyone that thinks we're due for a recession that will affect those recently hired by the majors?

We're in uncharted economic territory, who knows? It's inherently cyclical but the timing is now obviously operating with new variables, so the magnitude is also probably equally unpredictable. Black Swan events are always possible.

A downturn is inevitable... eventually. For all we know that could be in 30 years :confused:

But assuming a moderate downturn in the near future, it's likely IMO the big airlines will not furlough due to pending retirements. For airlines with multiple fleet types a single furlough can generate 5-7 training events, which cost money and take all of those pilots off line for months. Combine that with retirement movement off top of the list and the big three would probably need to recall the furloughs before they even finished moving all the pilots around to adjust for the furlough in the first place!

An airline with a single fleet type (ex SWA) would be able to furlough (and recall) more readily since there would not be cascading training events across multiple fleets.



Get out and get the ANG/Res position and fight for the remaining five years?

Yes reserves for sure if you get out.

tangowhsky
07-09-2019, 06:08 PM
So, as the guy who started this thread, fast forward 8 months to this unfortunate circumstance. Obviously having been passed over IPZ, I knew the APZ wasn't happening. Sat down yesterday with the boss who informed me of the next the curve ball inbound...he had a paper with my mandatory date of separation for 31 Dec 2019.

Does anybody know if this is normal and everybody twice passed over will get this or might I see/hear something different in a few more days? I was reading that selective continuation takes place at the end of the promotion board and it's possible the two worst case scenarios could happen--"a) continuation is not offered to anyone deferred two times by the promotion board or, b) an individual eligible for continuation is not selected for continuation." So while it looks like this was the case, I have yet to get anything official sent directly to me!

I was really looking forward to preping for the airlines about a year from now...not now, today, when all I've done is browsed over the forums. When it rains it poors eh'. So much to do with so little time, where do I start?

Blackhawk
07-09-2019, 06:37 PM
So, as the guy who started this thread, fast forward 8 months to this unfortunate circumstance. Obviously having been passed over IPZ, I knew the APZ wasn't happening. Sat down yesterday with the boss who informed me of the next the curve ball inbound...he had a paper with my mandatory date of separation for 31 Dec 2019.

Does anybody know if this is normal and everybody twice passed over will get this or might I see/hear something different in a few more days? I was reading that selective continuation takes place at the end of the promotion board and it's possible the two worst case scenarios could happen--"a) continuation is not offered to anyone deferred two times by the promotion board or, b) an individual eligible for continuation is not selected for continuation." So while it looks like this was the case, I have yet to get anything official sent directly to me!

I was really looking forward to preping for the airlines about a year from now...not now, today, when all I've done is browsed over the forums. When it rains it poors eh'. So much to do with so little time, where do I start?
Sometimes, things happen for a reason. Look at this as an opportunity instead of a speed bump and 5 eats from now youíll probably be grateful this happened.
Been there, done that. Unfortunately, in my case I appealed a fitness report, was successful, got a back dated promotion with back pay, then spent five more years in the Army before I realized I really did want to be an airline pilot instead of doing PowerPoint presentations.

tangowhsky
07-09-2019, 06:50 PM
Ya, I told the boss I'm not one bit upset about this new fork in the road. Just starting to visualize the process and the million questions to ask are forming!

So, guess I'd better get signed up into airlineapps, get a hold of emerald coast/RST, get better resumes, gather my flying stories, oh man, so much to do asap.

FormerAF
07-10-2019, 01:09 PM
Ya, I told the boss I'm not one bit upset about this new fork in the road. Just starting to visualize the process and the million questions to ask are forming!

So, guess I'd better get signed up into airlineapps, get a hold of emerald coast/RST, get better resumes, gather my flying stories, oh man, so much to do asap.

Priorities:
- Get your logbook in order (MilKeep is handy if you don't have things digitized)
- Start working on AirlineApps (DAL & UAL), PilotCredentials (AA & SWA), UPS has their own app and so does FedEx.
- Get a First Class Medical
- Get your FCC permit
- Write your resume
- Work the bro network for letters of recommendation
- Print your apps and review them. Then fix it and do it again.
- Get an app review
- Sign up for Emerald Coast/RST/Cage depending on which airline you're targeting
- Wait for the call
- Mentally prepare yourself to jump to a regional if necessary.
- And start rushing guard/reserve units

OBAP is in a few weeks. I'd get a resume together and go. We can debate the merits/validity of career fairs, but I'm planning on going because I figure it can't hurt.

I'd expect the next Southwest Window in about a month.

That's not all inclusive, but should get you on the right track. Caveat - I haven't gotten hired yet.

rickair7777
07-10-2019, 07:58 PM
So, as the guy who started this thread, fast forward 8 months to this unfortunate circumstance. Obviously having been passed over IPZ, I knew the APZ wasn't happening. Sat down yesterday with the boss who informed me of the next the curve ball inbound...he had a paper with my mandatory date of separation for 31 Dec 2019.

Does anybody know if this is normal and everybody twice passed over will get this or might I see/hear something different in a few more days? I was reading that selective continuation takes place at the end of the promotion board and it's possible the two worst case scenarios could happen--"a) continuation is not offered to anyone deferred two times by the promotion board or, b) an individual eligible for continuation is not selected for continuation." So while it looks like this was the case, I have yet to get anything official sent directly to me!

I was really looking forward to preping for the airlines about a year from now...not now, today, when all I've done is browsed over the forums. When it rains it poors eh'. So much to do with so little time, where do I start?

WTF??? I thought the AF was done rail-roading passed over majors!?! Every other service pretty much gives automatic continuation so it's your OPTION to stay for 20...

Silver lining is a potential great airline job + reserve retirement. You might even be able to finish the regular retirement in guard/reserve... although you might not even bother once you get accustomed to airline life.

tnkrdrvr
07-10-2019, 08:11 PM
WTF??? I thought the AF was done rail-roading passed over majors!?! Every other service pretty much gives automatic continuation so it's your OPTION to stay for 20...

Silver lining is a potential great airline job + reserve retirement. You might even be able to finish the regular retirement in guard/reserve... although you might not even bother once you get accustomed to airline life.

Sorry the active AF is ending your service on such a low note. It sounds like you have a pretty good idea of your way forward, so I will just throw out this word of encouragement from someone else who left as O4. When I returned from my last deployment I had less than a year left until I retired and no ATP. In 4 months I was able to knock out my ATP and a new type (737, and no Southwest wasnít my primary goal), attend a job fair for my top pick (UPS), pass the Hogan, and get an interview. A month after that I had a class date that was the earliest I could take for terminal. You can definitely make some lemonade out of the AFís lemons and potentially still get an active duty pension in the Guard or Reserve. Good luck and stay focused on your goal.

ipdanno
07-10-2019, 09:32 PM
As has been mentioned, start looking for an ANG or AFRES unit where you live or want to live. Either in what you are qualified to fly or not. Call the unit Ops Officer/Senior ART(Technician) and introduce yourself, and ask when is a good time to visit.

While you are transitioning, participation in a squadron exposes you to employees of multiple career destinations. That can help a bunch.

And, you very well might find that darn it, they promoted you any way. That improves the eventual retirement check quite a bit.

C17B74
07-12-2019, 07:05 AM
AF will always continue its shenanigans... We had a twice passed over O-4 who interviewed and got the AGR gig at my former unit. Big Blue gave him the nearly identical scenario of forced out in 6 months have a nice life. He rushed units for nearly a month or so, found us and we pulled him from their clutches before the final end date. He turned out to be a fantastic fit for our unit and it obviously worked out for him. While he had no immediate intentions to be an airline guy, he now has options.

Having airline aspirations, the better route would be to search out an ANG/Reserve unit for a part-time role while pushing forward on the airline front as many have mentioned. You may have the option to return at a later date for orders to build up points, get an AGR gig, do other duty including staff work or whatever it takes once having secured that line number at your airline of choice. Or just not care to return at all and focus on your new career. While definitely rushed, this can bring opportunities and move you forward faster to the front of the hiring wave. Some return to gain full retirement, others enjoy serving on a part time basis and will still have retirement/benefits. Plenty of others acclimate extremely well and just dump the whole enchilada after they have reasonable seniority from the furlough crapshoot. With hundreds of retirements ongoing at the Majors etc., you move incredibly faster than a decade earlier. Create options when able at all times.

“Nothing more dangerous than a man with options.” - A-10 / Southwest bud of mine.

Wheelsoff
07-14-2019, 10:57 AM
Going with the theme of the thread title...any current/former B-2 drivers in here? If so, please PM me...I may have the chance to go fly it, but it would extend my ADSC. Trying to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze or not. Thanks!

rickair7777
07-14-2019, 11:33 AM
Going with the theme of the thread title...any current/former B-2 drivers in here? If so, please PM me...I may have the chance to go fly it, but it would extend my ADSC. Trying to decide if the juice is worth the squeeze or not. Thanks!

I think that would be career enhancing... so few of those guys out there they'd probably find it fascinating, like the U2. Probably there's a quality cut to get in the program too.

Albief15
07-14-2019, 07:03 PM
If you have been passed over twice, I have to think your career has had its share of stress--relations with bosses, unfavorable additional duty jobs, etc etc. When your social life, the place you live, and every other factor are so directly influenced by your JOB (and I loved it..but that's what the military is at times...a JOB) when the job goes south its hard not to let it affect the other parts of your life. For you--its about to become a lot let stressful (eventually) because work and home will soon be very separate entities.

I know it is difficult, but try to focus on what's ahead and start to leave the Air Force behind. In 24 months, you will have a very different life, perspective, and attitude. You will have some dark days, but just focus on the light ahead and not the frustration behind.

Here's a little nugget. MOST of the happiest, most financially well off people I know are guys and gals who got out at the 10-14 year point. The next happiest are the folks who left at 20 + 1 day. The retired O-5s and O-6s who made it to the airlines have a great life, and forfeited only modest seniority, but they are still never going to be at the very top strata of airline seniority. Not the end of the world by any means, but you may find in 10 years the five year head start you got is going to be more and more valuable.

The folks who stayed on past 20...24, 28 or so...often never even bother to come to the airlines. Everyone's got a niche, but this life offers so much more flexibility than the typical job I cannot imagine going back now and doing anything else. Many of the guys I know who were "rock stars" in their AF careers are now doing jobs I would never do for maybe half (or less) of what I get paid. Money isn't everything, and we all like to go out on OUR terms, but if you can focus on the amount of time, money, and freedom you are about to have this transition will be a lot smoother and more enjoyable.

Good luck with the journey. If you need any encouragement, reach out. Plenty of guys have taken the same path you are on, and you are not a pioneer blazing a trail into the unknown.

One last tip: Sometimes guys passed over feel like there is a mark of Cain on their foreheads with the airlines. There isn't. There are times in an AF career that you face a fork in the road, and one choice leads to fast track and promotions while the other side keeps you flying instead. I've had a host of guys passed over hired at the majors, and when you tell your interviewer you passed on assignment or choose a less desirable track to "keep flying" or "let my kids graduate from the same high school they started...", most airline guys get it. We are quitters too, and not everyone wants to be an O-6. Prioritizing family and flying along the way can derail an AF career, but can also make you more marketable for your next job. Keep the faith--the world doesn't always measure you by the Air Force's yardstick.

tangowhsky
07-19-2019, 04:59 PM
oh and it just gets better folks!

Just a bit ago I got a call from an MPF CC that went something along these lines "so sir, there was erroneous info passed down to you and you actually are being offered continuation." We're so sorry and this is completely our fault. W T F! -- I'm so effin' pssed off right now!

Whats really grinding my gears right now is the day after the news, I was sitting in this very MPF's office discussing this, asking about all the possible options of how one can extend just a few extra months, continuation, waivers, ETP, etc.. The reply by ALL was once you have this paperwork from AFPC saying "mandatory DOS" it's a done deal!

As we know, a highly motivated pilot can move mountains in two weeks time and I have nearly done this to make the most of my QT out of AD. The transition to the outside world has begun...now this.

The one positive is, that if I decline, I still get to utilize the Dec DOS vs paying back 2 years of DEROS and 1 year remaining of UPT commitment. But, what are the real hidden costs in doing this?

tangowhsky
07-19-2019, 05:02 PM
Albief15, thanks for the words of encouragement, I do appreciate it!

tangowhsky
07-19-2019, 05:49 PM
With bourbon in one hand and some paperwork I signed last week in another, I'm now wondering if i'll now be dealing with a legal battle to fight to get the benefits of an involuntary separation that I signed for vs the now it looks like it would be a voluntary separation?

Peacock
07-19-2019, 08:59 PM
With bourbon in one hand and some paperwork I signed last week in another, I'm now wondering if i'll now be dealing with a legal battle to fight to get the benefits of an involuntary separation that I signed for vs the now it looks like it would be a voluntary separation?

Talk to a judge advocate but Iím pretty sure if they offer you continuation that takes you to being retirement eligible and you refuse it, itís not considered involuntary separation. If they offer you continuation that doesnít take you to retirement you can refuse and still be entitled to involuntary separation pay

jwlast
07-20-2019, 06:10 AM
Other than the few bucks you are missing on O-5 pay, you are on the home stretch man to a guaranteed pension and healthcare for life and no reason to play the game.

Stick it out.

I can't say enough about the fall-back of a monthly pension and didn't really appreciate Tri-care until I realized what non-retirees pay for health insurance monthly. Then the wife got sick, total bill came to 110K plus, Tri-care picked up all but 3K....our annual catastrophic cap was met, so everything the rest of the year (prescriptions, doctor visits, etc.) was free. Ya, you won't get rich off it, but the retirement benefits are worth their weight in gold. Medical expenses can bankrupt you....