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View Full Version : Jumpseat Hypothetical


Cargocapt
12-27-2018, 07:18 PM
Help me solve an argument.

Crew member is scheduled positive space home after trip, company paid ticket. Duty day limitations requires travel on following day at end of trip. Crew stuck at hotel till following day. Earlier available flight home last day of trip after duty day ends. Company can't assign crew to fly home that day, it exceeds duty day.

Can crew jump, without using paid ticket on earlier flight (provided it does not affect other deadhead crew). Crew has dutied off and is now on personal time. Plenty of early flights home instead of another night in a hotel for new duty day.

What should happen to positive space ticket. Should company get refund for ticket or is this a no no.

Hypothetical creates a situation where company purchase ticket then tells crew to take any flight they want home. Obviously company would buy worst flight available to encourage pilots to chose other options. Then if paid ticket not used company can get ticket price refunded. Rinse and repeat. This is obviously a no no, but why.

Vague for a reason.


DickBurns
12-27-2018, 07:30 PM
If your company will release you from your DH, then go home.

Cargocapt
12-27-2018, 07:35 PM
If your company will release you from your DH, then go home.

Not my company. The question is about the positive space ticket and if a crew member should/can jumpseat instead of using the positive space ticket. And specifically what should happen to the positive space ticket.


m3113n1a1
12-27-2018, 07:37 PM
Not my company. The question is about the positive space ticket and if a crew member should/can jumpseat instead of using the positive space ticket. And specifically what should happen to the positive space ticket.

I think it depends on specific company policy. Does your company have a policy for deviating from an assigned deadhead?

Cargocapt
12-27-2018, 07:45 PM
I think it depends on specific company policy. Does your company have a policy for deviating from an assigned deadhead?

Again not my company so I don't know the policy. Having a conversation with another crew member and he brought up this dozzy.

Smells of a jumpseat agreement issue. One company taking advantage of another's jumpseat benefits to save a buck or two.

ShyGuy
12-27-2018, 10:19 PM
I donít see how company is saving a buck or two? They owe you a positive space seat. Depending on your airline policy, itís up to you to use it or not. They owe you a hotel and a pos space ride DH back to base. If youíre cutting out the night before because it helps you, and you personally jumpseat home offline, then what does it matter what happened to the original seat? In your original scenario they couldnít fly you because you timed out (DH at end of FDP is not duty per FDP). But anyway I donít see a problem.

Sluggo_63
12-28-2018, 12:01 AM
Not my company. The question is about the positive space ticket and if a crew member should/can jumpseat instead of using the positive space ticket. And specifically what should happen to the positive space ticket.Are you talking about FedEx?

captjns
12-28-2018, 04:09 AM
Whereas carriers provide positive space tickets to and from home with provisos for replacement crews coming in to crew the airplane. As a rule, your travel home may be delayed should the inbound crew experience a delay, thus putting your plans off. This inconvenience usually results on overtime pay. The company does not want any potential revenue flight, rightfully so, uncovered. Iíve made it a point to have flight following to email / text me an official release to travel home earlier than stated on my roster.

hilltopflyer
12-28-2018, 04:46 AM
For us (b6) they have to release to self dh (Jumpseat). Only way they canít do it is if they are already assigning you to fly that flight the next day.
And to the other part of the question about taking advantage of the Jumpseat system. Of course you arenít. Only time it comes up about positive space and Jumpseat is if you are kicking someone off the Jumpseat on the flight you are originally scheduled to positive space home on just to Jumpseat.

Name User
12-28-2018, 05:16 AM
Moot point. 117 did away with duty day limitations for DH on last leg. Additonal rest will be required afterward, however. But since going home not an issue.

As far as getting refund, that would be a huge no-no. If caught the entire airline could lose jumpseat privileges.

symbian simian
12-28-2018, 05:45 AM
Help me solve an argument.

Crew member is scheduled positive space home after trip, company paid ticket. Duty day limitations requires travel on following day at end of trip. Crew stuck at hotel till following day. Earlier available flight home last day of trip after duty day ends. Company can't assign crew to fly home that day, it exceeds duty day.

Can crew jump, without using paid ticket on earlier flight (provided it does not affect other deadhead crew). Crew has dutied off and is now on personal time. Plenty of early flights home instead of another night in a hotel for new duty day.

What should happen to positive space ticket. Should company get refund for ticket or is this a no no.

Hypothetical creates a situation where company purchase ticket then tells crew to take any flight they want home. Obviously company would buy worst flight available to encourage pilots to chose other options. Then if paid ticket not used company can get ticket price refunded. Rinse and repeat. This is obviously a no no, but why.

Vague for a reason.

Not sure if my company tries to get refunded, and most of our DHs are on own flights. If they release me a day early, and I JS home, they cancel the hotel, I get $50 for that, is that a problem too?

NK Bumble Bee
12-28-2018, 10:20 AM
I was on the jumpseat committee at my regional (no longer) and the only issue that came up with the jumpseat agreements was our scumbag airline trying to get people to jumpseat instead of buying a positive space ticket on another airline. That is a clear violation of the jumpseat. If you chose to bug out on your own while off duty, even on the same routing that your deadhead, that is personal travel and no different than any other commute. Tell your friend to call their rep if they have concerns.

Cargocapt
12-28-2018, 10:25 AM
As far as getting refund, that would be a huge no-no. If caught the entire airline could lose jumpseat privileges.

This was the issue explained to me. Crew member in question was looking to jumpseat home early and company wanted to know crew member made it so they could cancel the ticket and get a refund.

This was a big red flag for me.

As it was explained, the company makes the travel option difficult to encourage the crew member to find alternatives. Then saves the fare on positive space by getting a refund on unused ticket. Company more often than not is spared the expense of the positive space ticket by encouraging crew members to jump.

Not FedEx, not my airline, but a jumpseater on my flight. I've got the crew members contact info and I would like to follow up why this is a big no no. To be honest I didn't have something specific to point to as to why this is a no no other than the obvious steal money from the airline which the offending airline (135) doesn't seem to understand according to the crew member.

Pogey Bait
12-28-2018, 11:50 AM
Why are you asking this on APC? Ask your own company about this.

Cargocapt
12-28-2018, 01:35 PM
Why are you asking this on APC? Ask your own company about this.

I've said this many times in this thread. Not my company. I have no idea what the policy is between the crew members company and the airline the crew member was jumpseating with. My company's policy would not matter in this situation.

It was a conversation I had with the crew member who was jumpseating. As the crew member explained things I had a 'say what now' moment.

rickair7777
12-29-2018, 06:24 AM
I was on the jumpseat committee at my regional (no longer) and the only issue that came up with the jumpseat agreements was our scumbag airline trying to get people to jumpseat instead of buying a positive space ticket on another airline. That is a clear violation of the jumpseat. If you chose to bug out on your own while off duty, even on the same routing that your deadhead, that is personal travel and no different than any other commute. Tell your friend to call their rep if they have concerns.

Yes, this whole thing is only an issue if...

a) An EMPLOYER is intentionally repositioning folks for company needs via an OFFLINE JS (or "encouraging" that). Technically an employer can reposition you on your own JS unless your CBA prohibits this (most do).

b) A pilot who has OFFLINE PS and takes the same or earlier flight via JS on the SAME offline carrier, and someone (pilot or employer) obtains a refund. This is the huge no-no because it basically denies the offline carrier a revenue opportunity, while using the PS to "reserve" an empty seat which is then occupied via JS privilege.

captjns
12-29-2018, 02:06 PM
Yes, this whole thing is only an issue if...

a) An EMPLOYER is intentionally repositioning folks for company needs via an OFFLINE JS (or "encouraging" that). Technically an employer can reposition you on your own JS unless your CBA prohibits this (most do).

b) A pilot who has OFFLINE PS and takes the same or earlier flight via JS on the SAME offline carrier, and someone (pilot or employer) obtains a refund. This is the huge no-no because it basically denies the offline carrier a revenue opportunity, while using the PS to "reserve" an empty seat which is then occupied via JS privilege.

BINGO!!!! It also deprives other jump seaters too.

Hawaii808
12-29-2018, 04:34 PM
How about a different spin on a jumpseat question. Supposed you are on a positive space ticket and the flight is oversold and travel vouchers are being offered to take a later flight. On boarding it is discovered that two people were assigned one seat. If the jumpseat is not in use would it be ok to offer to take the travel voucher and sit in the unoccupied jumpseat on the same flight in order to accommodate the passenger (child with his family) that was assigned an already occupied seat.

badflaps
12-30-2018, 01:51 PM
How about a different spin on a jumpseat question. Supposed you are on a positive space ticket and the flight is oversold and travel vouchers are being offered to take a later flight. On boarding it is discovered that two people were assigned one seat. If the jumpseat is not in use would it be ok to offer to take the travel voucher and sit in the unoccupied jumpseat on the same flight in order to accommodate the passenger (child with his family) that was assigned an already occupied seat.

They tell me the moon is quite pleasant this time of year.

Soxfan1
12-30-2018, 02:01 PM
There is nothing in 117 that would prevent you from flying positive space and/or as a dead head AFTER your duty day has ended regardless if you timed out or not.

So that said why would a company be putting someone on rest to do that? This question seems irrelevant to me. What am I missing?

Soxfan1
12-30-2018, 02:02 PM
There is nothing in 117 that would prevent you from flying positive space and/or as a dead head AFTER your duty day has ended regardless if you timed out or not.

So that said why would a company be putting someone on rest to do that? This question seems irrelevant to me. What am I missing?

Contract may prevent it though....

rickair7777
12-30-2018, 04:22 PM
Contract may prevent it though....

Such provisions should be waiver-able by the pilot in order to get home.

If it's not, that can be used against you... either JS home or go to the hotel for ten hours, and then DHD on the next flight with seats, maybe another six hours later.

rickair7777
12-30-2018, 04:25 PM
How about a different spin on a jumpseat question. Supposed you are on a positive space ticket and the flight is oversold and travel vouchers are being offered to take a later flight. On boarding it is discovered that two people were assigned one seat. If the jumpseat is not in use would it be ok to offer to take the travel voucher and sit in the unoccupied jumpseat on the same flight in order to accommodate the passenger (child with his family) that was assigned an already occupied seat.

I would. You gave up your seat so others could go, all the seats got filled by revenue customers. What you do after that is your business. But I'd tell the CA what you're up to, so there's no misunderstanding.

Assumes you were revenue PS, ie ticket bought by your employer on another airline... non-rev PS is probably not voucher eligible.

angry tanker
12-30-2018, 07:28 PM
How about a different spin on a jumpseat question. Supposed you are on a positive space ticket and the flight is oversold and travel vouchers are being offered to take a later flight. On boarding it is discovered that two people were assigned one seat. If the jumpseat is not in use would it be ok to offer to take the travel voucher and sit in the unoccupied jumpseat on the same flight in order to accommodate the passenger (child with his family) that was assigned an already occupied seat.

This is the big no no! You have a positive seat bought by the company, and then take the other companyís voucher, and then Jumpseat on the same flight... This would violate a lot of jumpseat agreements and some discounted fare agreements with the companies involved. If you have a guaranteed seat on a flight, take it. Let the carrier deal with the reseating of others.

Big E 757
12-30-2018, 08:35 PM
Help me solve an argument.

Crew member is scheduled positive space home after trip, company paid ticket. Duty day limitations requires travel on following day at end of trip. Crew stuck at hotel till following day. Earlier available flight home last day of trip after duty day ends. Company can't assign crew to fly home that day, it exceeds duty day.

Can crew jump, without using paid ticket on earlier flight (provided it does not affect other deadhead crew). Crew has dutied off and is now on personal time. Plenty of early flights home instead of another night in a hotel for new duty day.

What should happen to positive space ticket. Should company get refund for ticket or is this a no no.

Hypothetical creates a situation where company purchase ticket then tells crew to take any flight they want home. Obviously company would buy worst flight available to encourage pilots to chose other options. Then if paid ticket not used company can get ticket price refunded. Rinse and repeat. This is obviously a no no, but why.

Vague for a reason.


I think I understand your question. I have a friend who used to work for a home basing cargo company and they had an agreement where if the crew member would jumpseat to or from their ďstaging airportĒ the company would split the cost of the ticket with the crew member. So these pilots would regularly jumpseat to work and earn up to $200 for the effort. That would be a no no. Jumpseating home to get home sooner is perfectly acceptable, but if the company is then going to cancel the ticket and get a refund, and is possibly scheduling on purpose to make things inconvenient to force jumpseating, so they can save money, I would say giving them an opportunity to save money is a no no, or at least a gray area and not what the jumpseat should be utilized for.

Hawaii808
12-30-2018, 11:49 PM
I would. You gave up your seat so others could go, all the seats got filled by revenue customers. What you do after that is your business. But I'd tell the CA what you're up to, so there's no misunderstanding.

Assumes you were revenue PS, ie ticket bought by your employer on another airline... non-rev PS is probably not voucher eligible.

Thatís what I would think as well. Make sure itís ok with the captain and be on your way with everybody happy to be on the flight.

Hawaii808
12-31-2018, 12:06 AM
This is the big no no! You have a positive seat bought by the company, and then take the other companyís voucher, and then Jumpseat on the same flight... This would violate a lot of jumpseat agreements and some discounted fare agreements with the companies involved. If you have a guaranteed seat on a flight, take it. Let the carrier deal with the reseating of others.

I fail to see how a carrier would get upset that somebody is willing to occupy the empty jumpseat so that other customers wouldnít get bumped from a flight. There would be no revenue lost as somebody would have gotten the voucher when they involuntarily get bumped from the flight. Would it be ok for the pilot/passenger to take the voucher, exit the aircraft, and then walk 20 feet to the next gate and request to jumpseat on a full flight that leaves 45 minutes later? Itís the same thing minus the hassle.
Not trying to start an argument. Iím just interested in what airline captains would think if that situation ever presented itself to them. I would probably be fine with it as it solves a problem and maximizes the number of passengers getting to their destination.

lowandslow
12-31-2018, 08:37 AM
I fail to see how a carrier would get upset that somebody is willing to occupy the empty jumpseat so that other customers wouldnít get bumped from a flight. There would be no revenue lost as somebody would have gotten the voucher when they involuntarily get bumped from the flight. Would it be ok for the pilot/passenger to take the voucher, exit the aircraft, and then walk 20 feet to the next gate and request to jumpseat on a full flight that leaves 45 minutes later? Itís the same thing minus the hassle.
Not trying to start an argument. Iím just interested in what airline captains would think if that situation ever presented itself to them. I would probably be fine with it as it solves a problem and maximizes the number of passengers getting to their destination.

As stated before taking the voucher and the jumpseat seems wrong though Iím not privy to every detail of a jumpseat agreement. A requirement of an ATP is ďgood moral characterĒ (I know itís widely ignored) and this seems morally wrong. Kinda like legal vs safe. CAN you do this? SHOULD you do this?

To the OP- once Iíve taken an alternate DH home I donít care what they do with my ticket.

Rama
12-31-2018, 10:55 AM
Our union (Alpa) has been asked this question previously and their response was to keep the seat.
Giving up a positive space seat for the convenience of others may seem like a good thing to do, but it opens the door for it to become abused.

ImperialxRat
12-31-2018, 11:24 AM
As stated before taking the voucher and the jumpseat seems wrong though Iím not privy to every detail of a jumpseat agreement. A requirement of an ATP is ďgood moral characterĒ (I know itís widely ignored) and this seems morally wrong. Kinda like legal vs safe. CAN you do this? SHOULD you do this?

To the OP- once Iíve taken an alternate DH home I donít care what they do with my ticket.

This is why morality is so tricky, because to you this seems wrong, and to the rest of us it seems fine. The airline is offering a voucher to give up a positive space seat... the pilot has a positive space seat to give up and so does so. Then, rather than wait until a later time to be rebooked, they utilize their option to jumpseat to get home. Seems like a no brainer to me.

As far as the OP question, the problem starts to become where mentioned above the company asking pilots to jumpseat into work and get a $$$ amount for doing that to save the company money (not what jumpseating is designed for).

I believe it's one of the reasons Netjets says that if they can't get you home on go-home day that you will be booked on the first available flight (rest period required of course) that you're legal for. The OP's scenario had the company wanting pilots to jumpseat home so they can refund the ticket cost, and so lets say you finish up at 9pm but are out of duty to get home that night... well instead of booking you on an 8am flight the next morning that gets you home nice and early, they could book you on a 7pm flight (you know, because "its $5 cheaper"), well now as a pilot you have a choice to sit around the hotel/airport all day or just jumpseat home, allowing them to get a refund for your ticket.

Would be a crappy situation everytime you're trying to go home, however I guess the question was actually more to the jumpseat agreement part, but I think that was answered well enough.

rickair7777
12-31-2018, 11:49 AM
Our union (Alpa) has been asked this question previously and their response was to keep the seat.
Giving up a positive space seat for the convenience of others may seem like a good thing to do, but it opens the door for it to become abused.

I have done it to help out nonrevs only. Short legs, only if I'm not tired, and only if the CA agrees.

Cargocapt
12-31-2018, 01:28 PM
Whoah.....this escalated quickly.

I'll shed a little more light on this. Vouchers were not involved here.

Kid who works for a typical ****ty regional was sitting with me and a few others before a flight. He was trying to jump home for the holidays to be with his wife and kids. It wasn't looking good for him. He was asking for advice on how to get home for the holidays.

In the course of explaining his situation, he stated that he had positive space that would not get him home in time for Christmas morning. As a result he was trying to get home earlier.

He had stupidly told the company of his plan to jump seat home and as a result the company demanded a refund of his positive space. Apparently this is standard practice at the ****ty regional. He was concerned if they did he would not only not get home by jumping but with the loss of his positive space might not get home for the holiday at all.

My ears perked up at the demand by the ****ty regional to cancel his positive space since he was jumping home early even before the kid knew he was on a flight home. Thus the kid travels on another airline for free while the ****ty regional airline doesn't have to pay to get him home.

I do not recall if it was the same carrier that he was positive space and trying to jump seat.

Either way sounds very much inappropriate use of jump privileges on behalf of the company. My flight left before this kid found a flight home but I was there to overhear a call from his company demanding to know if he had found a flight so they could cancel his ticket.

Andy
12-31-2018, 04:34 PM
This is why morality is so tricky, because to you this seems wrong, and to the rest of us it seems fine.

No, I agree with lowandslow. You are personally financially benefitting (voucher) from taking the jumpseat. If one refuses the voucher and still takes the jumpseat, fine. But one cannot use the jumpseat for personal gain.

Andy
12-31-2018, 04:38 PM
Whoah.....this escalated quickly.

I'll shed a little more light on this. Vouchers were not involved here.

Kid who works for a typical ****ty regional was sitting with me and a few others before a flight. He was trying to jump home for the holidays to be with his wife and kids. It wasn't looking good for him. He was asking for advice on how to get home for the holidays.

In the course of explaining his situation, he stated that he had positive space that would not get him home in time for Christmas morning. As a result he was trying to get home earlier.

He had stupidly told the company of his plan to jump seat home and as a result the company demanded a refund of his positive space. Apparently this is standard practice at the ****ty regional. He was concerned if they did he would not only not get home by jumping but with the loss of his positive space might not get home for the holiday at all.

My ears perked up at the demand by the ****ty regional to cancel his positive space since he was jumping home early even before the kid knew he was on a flight home. Thus the kid travels on another airline for free while the ****ty regional airline doesn't have to pay to get him home.

I do not recall if it was the same carrier that he was positive space and trying to jump seat.

Either way sounds very much inappropriate use of jump privileges on behalf of the company. My flight left before this kid found a flight home but I was there to overhear a call from his company demanding to know if he had found a flight so they could cancel his ticket.

My suggestion to the pilot would be to talk to a ticket agent at the carrier whose revenue ticket he had and see if he could fly standby on an earlier flight.

The company in question is putting reciprocal jumpseat agreements in peril by playing that game. They are clearly trying to get their pilots to find a jumpseat so they can get a refund on the ticket.

flensr
12-31-2018, 05:10 PM
It's totally company dependent, and it also probably depends on what kind of company you're working for (major, regional, charter, etc).

In both 121 companies I've worked for, if my trip ends with a company-purchased DH following a rest period, I could call scheduling and request release from the DH. If the scheduler did not have a re-route assignment for me *at that time* (important point!) they were REQUIRED to release me from the DH, leaving me free to do whatever I wanted on my own time. That could be utilizing the already paid for hotel for a free 1-day vacation stay, or jumpseating home "off the clock". In other words, once released from scheduling, I could do whatever I wanted.

As for the DH ticket... That's up to the company. I assume, based on common knowledge, that the company has a set method for purchasing and releasing DH tickets in accordance with agreements with other major airlines. So what happens to that DH ticket is not my problem.

Now, that's how it goes with a major. With smaller companies I can totally see how this would be an important consideration. But the majors have pretty much all arranged this through internal policy and through pilot contracts so that in this specific situation, the pilot can generally call scheduling to get released and at that point the pilot is on his own time and can do whatever he/she wants. And the DH ticket gets thrown back into the pot or wasted depending on what arrangements were used to buy the ticket in the first place.

The military was quite different of course, but even then a travelling military member who is familiar with the regulations, and more importantly, the reporting instructions for the area they were travelling to/from, could use those regulations to deviate from their orders as long as their orders specified "deviations authorized" (duh!) and they complied with majcom regs and AOR reporting instructions. I created my own itinerary multiple times that was far better than what the travel folks came up with, because I did my homework and figured out what was authorized.

I bring the military stuff up only to emphasize that it's important to know what rules and contracts you're bound by, whether you're military or in a large pilot group working under a contract. There are specific work rules in the contracts used by the major airlines that cover this exact situation and knowing the work rules covering you is an important part of your job. Know and fly the contract, and USE IT when necessary.

flensr
12-31-2018, 05:18 PM
This is the big no no! You have a positive seat bought by the company, and then take the other companyís voucher, and then Jumpseat on the same flight... This would violate a lot of jumpseat agreements and some discounted fare agreements with the companies involved. If you have a guaranteed seat on a flight, take it. Let the carrier deal with the reseating of others.

This is probably the biggest argument for NOT travelling DH in uniform... And when in doubt, call scheduling or your union rep for guidance.

I've only worked for 2 majors, and both of them have clear guidance for getting released from DH. What goes on behind the scenes is not my problem. If you want or need to JS instead of DH, get it on tape and get released from scheduling. If you're on a DH ticket and the flight is overbooked, that's the problem of the airline you're flying on unless you're in uniform and make a scene and therefore cause your own company to get a public relations black eye. Let the companies involved follow their policies, and time permitting, *consider* calling scheduling to get released "on tape" so if you switch from DH to JS, they won't come back at you for violating JS agreements.

flensr
12-31-2018, 05:24 PM
My personal opinion, if I'm not trying to JS on the exact same flight that my company has a DH seat purchased for me, then there is no moral or ethical issue involved. If I'm scheduled to DH on flight xxx but instead I get released by my company and choose to JS on flight YYY, then whatever the company does with that original DH ticket is NOT MY PROBLEM.

If you're trying to JS on a flight that you already have a DH ticket purchased for, then yea that's pretty much black and white as far as I can tell. Keep the DH ticket and comply with the policies of the airline you're flying on (not for!) if they overbooked and you get bumped.

sailingfun
12-31-2018, 05:27 PM
Itís really quite simple. If you are saving yourself money by jumpseating instead of using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. If you are saving your company money by jumpseating and not using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. Both off the above assume you are offline jumpseating.

flensr
12-31-2018, 05:32 PM
Itís really quite simple. If you are saving yourself money by jumpseating instead of using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. If you are saving your company money by jumpseating and not using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. Both off the above assume you are offline jumpseating.

What if I don't know or care what my company does with my DH ticket once I get released from the DH leg?

It's a serious question because I don't think most of us know what the company does. Do they have agreements with the other airlines to toss those tickets back into the pot for re-use on a different day? Anyone else buying a full price ticket and not using it can reschedule that flight for a small fee. So are our DH tickets part of a big pot of tickets the company buys and reschedules as needed, or is that money thrown away if the DH ticket is not used? And why on earth should I care what my company does with a DH ticket that I don't use, in accordance with my contract?

The only situation I can see where I care, after reading this entire thread twice, is if somehow I end up trying to JS on the same flight that I had a DH ticket already purchased for. That's shady and of course likely violates all the JS agreements, as several people have pointed out. But in all other situations, why should I care what the company does with an unused DH ticket? At that point the company is simply another customer with a ticket they didn't use, and I'm just a pilot jumpseating to get home because my trip is over.

m3113n1a1
12-31-2018, 05:35 PM
Itís really quite simple. If you are saving yourself money by jumpseating instead of using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. If you are saving your company money by jumpseating and not using a purchased ticket you are in the wrong. Both off the above assume you are offline jumpseating.

What about Fedex's travel bank system then?

rickair7777
12-31-2018, 05:39 PM
No, I agree with lowandslow. You are personally financially benefitting (voucher) from taking the jumpseat. If one refuses the voucher and still takes the jumpseat, fine. But one cannot use the jumpseat for personal gain.

I don't see it quite that way. You're a rev pax, got bumped or volunteered, got a voucher.

Now you're "off the hook", and like any other human being free to do what you want. In the case of a pilot, that might involve the JS.

If you helped the airline out, I don't see the problem with then occupying the JS.

If you have moral concerns, let them keep their voucher.

Cujo665
12-31-2018, 05:44 PM
Help me solve an argument.

Crew member is scheduled positive space home after trip, company paid ticket. Duty day limitations requires travel on following day at end of trip. Crew stuck at hotel till following day. Earlier available flight home last day of trip after duty day ends. Company can't assign crew to fly home that day, it exceeds duty day.

Can crew jump, without using paid ticket on earlier flight (provided it does not affect other deadhead crew). Crew has dutied off and is now on personal time. Plenty of early flights home instead of another night in a hotel for new duty day.

What should happen to positive space ticket. Should company get refund for ticket or is this a no no.

Hypothetical creates a situation where company purchase ticket then tells crew to take any flight they want home. Obviously company would buy worst flight available to encourage pilots to chose other options. Then if paid ticket not used company can get ticket price refunded. Rinse and repeat. This is obviously a no no, but why.

Vague for a reason.

Just ask to be released where you’re at. No explanations needed. It’s a simple yes or no.

Now, if your company is intentionally booking crappy scheduled flights to tacitly encourage pilots to JS home so they can cancel tickets and get refunds then this is a huge red flag. Notify your JS committee. The JS is not supposed to be for what should otherwise be company supplied travel

Cargocapt
12-31-2018, 06:37 PM
Just ask to be released where youíre at. No explanations needed. Itís a simple yes or no.

Now, if your company is intentionally booking crappy scheduled flights to tacitly encourage pilots to JS home so they can cancel tickets and get refunds then this is a huge red flag. Notify your JS committee. The JS is not supposed to be for what should otherwise be company supplied travel

Again NOT my company. Read my post above

Rama
12-31-2018, 06:45 PM
The jumpseat is for convenience. Get home early, great. No problem there.
If you as a pilot, or your company is benefiting financially from you riding it is a no no.
That is how the jumpseat agreements are lost.
Don't know about the Fed Ex deal, but if you are getting money for being in my jumpseat then I have a problem with it. If you are vacationing or traveling with the family are positioning early or late, I don't care.

Big E 757
12-31-2018, 10:05 PM
Whoah.....this escalated quickly.

I'll shed a little more light on this. Vouchers were not involved here.

Kid who works for a typical ****ty regional was sitting with me and a few others before a flight. He was trying to jump home for the holidays to be with his wife and kids. It wasn't looking good for him. He was asking for advice on how to get home for the holidays.

In the course of explaining his situation, he stated that he had positive space that would not get him home in time for Christmas morning. As a result he was trying to get home earlier.

He had stupidly told the company of his plan to jump seat home and as a result the company demanded a refund of his positive space. Apparently this is standard practice at the ****ty regional. He was concerned if they did he would not only not get home by jumping but with the loss of his positive space might not get home for the holiday at all.

My ears perked up at the demand by the ****ty regional to cancel his positive space since he was jumping home early even before the kid knew he was on a flight home. Thus the kid travels on another airline for free while the ****ty regional airline doesn't have to pay to get him home.

I do not recall if it was the same carrier that he was positive space and trying to jump seat.

Either way sounds very much inappropriate use of jump privileges on behalf of the company. My flight left before this kid found a flight home but I was there to overhear a call from his company demanding to know if he had found a flight so they could cancel his ticket.

It all boils down to this, in my opinion, and I hope the majority of my colleagues...if he explained his situation to me, as the Captain of the flight. Iíd say ďcome on down, welcome aboard, make yourself comfortable.Ē I wouldnít care what he did regarding his PS ticket. Heís trying to get home for the holidays to be with his family.

Big E 757
12-31-2018, 10:15 PM
Again NOT my company. Read my post above

We all understand that. I think this has evolved more into a right or wrong, regarding jumpseat use. I don’t think these posts are all directed at you or are questioning your moral character. Don’t take it personally.

Happy New year everyone!

ebl14
01-01-2019, 10:03 AM
Iíll bet the guyís company isnít trying to get them to JS, they probably just buy the cheapest possible ticket that complies with their work rules or FARs. If he isnít going to use the ticket, I donít see a problem with the company getting a refund. I see it the same as when you have an overnight at home and you tell the company they can cancel your hotel or give it to someone else. Does the airline owe a hotel money because you happened to not need the room based on where you live? I donít think so.

Rama
01-01-2019, 08:15 PM
At home or in domicile are two different things.
A company is bound to get you to your domicile. If you choose a different way which is more convenient, fine.
If the company purposely makes you fly there to save money, then it is a problem.

ImperialxRat
01-01-2019, 09:48 PM
No, I agree with lowandslow. You are personally financially benefitting (voucher) from taking the jumpseat. If one refuses the voucher and still takes the jumpseat, fine. But one cannot use the jumpseat for personal gain.


Wrong. I am personally financially benefiting from giving up my positive space ticket because the flight is oversold and they're offering vouchers.


Also, I would argue that all jumpseat travel is for personal gain, since we don't jumpseat to help out the company or whatever, we jumpseat to get ourselves places we want to go (commuting, vacation, etc)

badflaps
01-02-2019, 08:19 AM
Wrong. I am personally financially benefiting from giving up my positive space ticket because the flight is oversold and they're offering vouchers.


Also, I would argue that all jumpseat travel is for personal gain, since we don't jumpseat to help out the company or whatever, we jumpseat to get ourselves places we want to go (commuting, vacation, etc)
I don't think the JS has ever been monitized, has it?

ImperialxRat
01-03-2019, 07:44 AM
I don't think the JS has ever been monitized, has it?

I'm not quite sure what this means. I was just saying the jumpseat is always used for personal reasons and personal gain.

In the above situation he is not being paid to take the jumpseat, he is being paid to give up his positive space seat.

Baradium
01-08-2019, 05:45 PM
How about a different spin on a jumpseat question. Supposed you are on a positive space ticket and the flight is oversold and travel vouchers are being offered to take a later flight. On boarding it is discovered that two people were assigned one seat. If the jumpseat is not in use would it be ok to offer to take the travel voucher and sit in the unoccupied jumpseat on the same flight in order to accommodate the passenger (child with his family) that was assigned an already occupied seat.


I would. You gave up your seat so others could go, all the seats got filled by revenue customers. What you do after that is your business. But I'd tell the CA what you're up to, so there's no misunderstanding.

Assumes you were revenue PS, ie ticket bought by your employer on another airline... non-rev PS is probably not voucher eligible.

I fail to see how a carrier would get upset that somebody is willing to occupy the empty jumpseat so that other customers wouldnít get bumped from a flight. There would be no revenue lost as somebody would have gotten the voucher when they involuntarily get bumped from the flight. Would it be ok for the pilot/passenger to take the voucher, exit the aircraft, and then walk 20 feet to the next gate and request to jumpseat on a full flight that leaves 45 minutes later? Itís the same thing minus the hassle.
Not trying to start an argument. Iím just interested in what airline captains would think if that situation ever presented itself to them. I would probably be fine with it as it solves a problem and maximizes the number of passengers getting to their destination.


I know I left some replies out, but the scenario at hand is specifically forbidden. You aren't even supposed to do that on your own airline's jumpseat, but never on OAL. You can throw out all of the "no one's getting hurt" stuff you want, but it is not permitted and not kosher. Even on your own airline you could be resulting in an OAL jumpseater being denied (do you think the agent will mention there is someone you would bump trying to jumpeat if you're going to save work?).

I have seen before where someone gave up a positive space seat trying to play a game like this and then didn't get the jumpseatÖ oops. Agent doesn't care anymore because the problem is solved.

In any case, this isn't about "the airline being upset." This is about you violating the jumpseat agreement. You aren't even supposed to take the voucher and jumpseat on a completely different airline than the one you got a voucher on (oh, can you see how that airline might be upset that you were paid to take their jumpseat or saved someone from being paid to take a passenger seat on them?). Basically, anything that is done specifically to save an airline money or to get you extra money by not taking a paid for deadhead is impermissible.



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